The Four Angels At The Corners Of The Earth And The Four Angels Bound At The Euphrates

[SlaveForJah]

Hello Brothers and Sisters,


Christan Greetings. I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on the following question: The two groups of "four angels" described in the Book of Revelation, are they the same? What identities can we reasonably assign to them. The passages where these references can be found are posted below. Thank you in advance for your answers and scriptural insights.




"1 After this I saw four angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow upon the earth or upon the sea or upon any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads."" - Revelation 7:1-3







"12 The one woe is past. Look! Two more woes are coming after these things.

13 And the sixth angel blew his trumpet. And I heard one voice out of the horns of the golden altar that is before God 14 say to the sixth angel, who had the trumpet: "Untie the four angels that are bound at the great river Eu·phra´tes." 15 And the four angels were untied, who have been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, to kill a third of the men." - Revelation 9:12-15



Agape

SlaveForJah

[Jeshurun]

Well Slave, there are the two groups of four, which is eight, then there's the angel who blew the trumpet, and also the one who ascended from the sunrising, making a total of ten. If Jesus is going to have a couple of hundred million angels helping him wipe out Satan's crowd, I would imagine that Jehovah would provide two different sets of four for the two different tasks. Not that they aren't capable of multi-tasking, but why put that extra stress on only four of them? I mean, they are holding back these immensely destructive winds, while the other four have a specific task to be carried out during a specific amount of time. (Yes, I perceive that the "hour and day and month and year" is referring to a TOTAL time of 13 months plus 25 hours "to kill a third of the men".)

But then again what do I know? :icon_rolleyes:

:Love:
Jesh

[Steadfast]

Dear SFJ,

Looking into the book of Revelation, we see the first four angels holding back at the sixth seal until the 144,000 are sealed in their foreheads:

Revelation 7:1 – After these things, I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth nor on the sea nor on any tree.

Revelation 7:2 – And I saw another angel, and he ascended from the direction of the rising sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, saying,

Revelation 7:3 – Do not hurt the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, until we have sealed the slaves of God in their foreheads.

The second set of angels are untied at the blowing of the sixth trumpet:

Revelation 9:13 – And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the horns of the golden altar which is before God,

Revelation 9:14 – saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, 'Loose the four angels which are bound by the great river Euphrates.

The seals open before any trumpets start to blow:

Revelation 8:1 – And when he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about the space of half an hour.

Revelation 8:2 – Then I saw seven angels who stood before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.

Revelation 8:6 – And the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

So it would seem that these are two different groups of angels, or the same group, who perform their duties at two different times during the great tribulation…once at the beginning and one at the end.

Love,

Steadfast

[SlaveForJah]

Hello Sister Steadfast,

Thank you for the reply. I suppose my question is this: If the first group of angels is held back UNTIL the 144,000 have been sealed, and the second group arent untied until the 6th trumpet, could they not be the same group? The living remnant of the 144,000 arent sealed until the 6th trumpet. So, the earliest that the release of the first group could take place is the same time that the second group is described as being untied. Both groups have similar duties, or rather the duty of the second group would result in something very similar to the unleashing of the winds held back by the first group.

Any help is appreciated, and thanks again Steadfast.


Searching

Agape

SlaveForJah

[Steadfast]

Dear Brother SFJ,

All these seals and trumpets get a bit confusing. :203:

You said: 'The living remnant of the 144,000 arent sealed until the 6th trumpet.'

I think if you look again at my previous post and check it against the Bible, you will see that the 144,000 are sealed at the beginning of the trib...the 6th seal. The seals occur before the trumpets.

There is no other sealing that I am aware of in the book of Revelation. Of course, I could be wrong and will be most happy to consider something you might have found.

But I do agree that the four angels could be the same group used at the 6th seal and the 6th trumpet. :185:

Love,

Steadfast

PS On second thought, there is another sealing mentioned in Revelation 9...the sealing in the forehead of those who are not harmed by the locusts. This sealing takes place at the 5th trumpet. IMO, I can see these ones as the great crowd who have refused to take the mark of the beast.

[SlaveForJah]

Dear Brother SFJ,

All these seals and trumpets get a bit confusing. :203:

You said: 'The living remnant of the 144,000 arent sealed until the 6th trumpet.'

I think if you look again at my previous post and check it against the Bible, you will see that the 144,000 are sealed at the beginning of the trib...the 6th seal. The seals occur before the trumpets.

There is no other sealing that I am aware of in the book of Revelation. Of course, I could be wrong and will be most happy to consider something you might have found.

But I do agree that the four angels could be the same group used at the 6th seal and the 6th trumpet. :185:

Love,

Steadfast

PS On second thought, there is another sealing mentioned in Revelation 9...the sealing in the forehead of those who are not harmed by the locusts. This sealing takes place at the 5th trumpet. IMO, I can see these ones as the great crowd who have refused to take the mark of the beast.[/b]

Dear Sister Steadfast,

It is my understanding that the 7 trumpets are a subset of the 7th seal. The first 6 seals are unsealed and at the unsealing of the 7th the 7 trumpets are then handed out. In Rev. Chapter 9 the 6th trumpet is blown and the anointed are still not in heaven, as that is the completion of the sacred secret that occurs at the 7th trumpet.

The seal that is spoken of at the 5th trumpet, or the 1st woe, is one that guards against being harmed by the locusts. And their authority is not to kill, but to harm. The final sealing, for some of the anointed WILL take the form of being killed, as was their Lord.

There must exist some of the anointed as a remaining remnant of LIVING stones of the temple that will be "changed", as Paul told the Corinthians. These would be sealed at least by the time of the "dead in Christ" rising first, that ALL may meet the Lord in the air TOGETHER. This, as we both agree, happens ONCE at the 7th trumpet. So, for those living anointed remaining alive at the 7th trumpet, their sealing must take place prior to the 7th trumpet.

It looks to me like that time frame would be the 6th trupmet, as that is the time that the cavalry is unleashed as well as the second group of four angels untied, both of whom have authority not only to harm, but to kill. At this point, the entire Bride will ascend (harpazo) to meet their Groom in the clouds, the 7th trumpet.

Please, if I am not reading this correctly, let me know. Thanks for your patience.


Agape

SlaveForJah

[Steadfast]

Dear SFJ,

You said: 'It is my understanding that the 7 trumpets are a subset of the 7th seal. The first 6 seals are unsealed and at the unsealing of the 7th the 7 trumpets are then handed out. In Rev. Chapter 9 the 6th trumpet is blown and the anointed are still not in heaven, as that is the completion of the sacred secret that occurs at the 7th trumpet.

The seal that is spoken of at the 5th trumpet, or the 1st woe, is one that guards against being harmed by the locusts. And their authority is not to kill, but to harm.'

I agree with all you have said to this point.

You then said: 'The final sealing, for some of the anointed WILL take the form of being killed, as was their Lord.'

Actually, I see that all the living anointed must die for the following reasons:

I see the living anointed as part of the two witnesses who preach in sack cloth as described at Revelation 11:

Revelation 11:3 – 'And I will give power unto my two witnesses and the shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.'

At the end of their prophesying, look what happens:

Revelation 11:7 – And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

The two witnesses are dead for 3-1/2 days:

Revelation 11:9 – 'And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies (two witnesses) three days and a half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

Look at Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 15:50, stating that the physical body must die:

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 – 'So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.'

What other scriptures could be used to show that the brothers of Christ die a physical death?

Revelation 6:9-11 – And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, 'How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Also the beast is given power to rule for 42 months:

Revelation 13:5 – 'And there was given unto him (beast) a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.'

With what result?

Revelation 13:7 – 'And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds and tongues, and nations.'

So while I see those of the body of Christ who died in times past sleeping in the grave until their resurrection during the great trib, I can also see special circumstances applying to the living remnant also having to die, but not sleep, as in an extended period of time.

At the very least, the living remnant who die during the great trib will sleep for a minimum of 3-1/2 days, unless of course, the two witnesses are not the living remnant. :190:

Love,

Steadfast

[SlaveForJah]

Hello again Sister Steadfast,

Christian Greetings. Thank you for all your research, hard work, and loving replies.

I agree with the entirety of your previous post, save this one statement: "Actually, I see that all the living anointed must die for the following reasons:"

How do we reconcile that statement with this scripture:

New American Standard Bible (http://nasb.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm) (©1995) (http://www.lockman.org/)
Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (http://gwt.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm) (©1995) (http://www.godsword.org/)
I'm telling you a mystery. Not all of us will die, but we will all be changed.

King James Bible (http://kingjbible.com/1_corinthians/15.htm)
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

American Standard Version (http://asvbible.com/1_corinthians/15.htm)
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Bible in Basic English (http://basicenglishbible.com/1_corinthians/15.htm)
See, I am giving you the revelation of a secret: we will not all come to the sleep of death, but we will all be changed.

Darby Bible Translation (http://darbybible.com/1_corinthians/15.htm)
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed,

English Revised Version (http://erv.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm)
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Tyndale New Testament (http://tnt.scripturetext.com/1_corinthians/15.htm)
Behold I shew a mystery unto you: we shall not all sleep: but we shall all be changed,

Weymouth New Testament (http://weymouthbible.com/1_corinthians/15.htm)
I tell you a truth hitherto kept secret: we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Webster's Bible Translation (http://websterbible.com/1_corinthians/15.htm)
Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

World English Bible (http://worldebible.com/1_corinthians/15.htm)
Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,

Young's Literal Translation (http://yltbible.com/1_corinthians/15.htm)
lo, I tell you a secret; we indeed shall not all sleep, and we all shall be changed;

1Corinthians 15:51 (translations noted)

<span style="color:#000000">True, only two of these translations use "die" or "death" instead of "sleep", but even those that use "sleep" seem to convey the thought of "not even arriving at sleep (death)" as opposed to "not continuing on in sleep (death)".
</span>

A few more translations:

<span style="color:#000000"><span style="color:#0000ff">"</span>51 Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed". (NWT)</span>

"51I will explain a mystery to you. Not every one of us will die, but we will all be changed." (CEV)

"51Listen! I tell you a secret. We will not all die, but we will all be changed." (WE)

"51 Les voy a contar algo que Dios tenía en secreto: No todos moriremos, pero todos seremos transformados." (BLS)
(My rough translation: "I will tell you something God had in secret: Not all of us will die, but all of us will be transformed.")

"51 Os digo un misterio:^{[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1corinthians%2015:50-57;&version=61;49;65;15;16;#fes-RVR1995-28772b)]} No todos moriremos; pero todos seremos transformados" (RVR1995)
(My Castilian Spanish isn&#39;t so good, but here&#39;s my rough translation: "I say to us a mystery: Not all of us will die; but all of us will be transformed.")

There are others, but I am sure that the point I am trying to make is well established. The Apostle Paul makes clear, at least to me, that NOT ALL WILL DIE, but that those who DO NOT DIE will be "changed", whereas the "dead in Christ receive their "change" at their &#39;rising first&#39;, since "it is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption". This is the same manner in which Christ was raised, having sacrificed his physical body at his Ransom, being raised in incorruption and remaining for 40 days prior to ascending to the heavens.

If I am wrong on all this, please bring it to my attention. Thank you again for you patience and your dialogue.


Agape

SlaveForJah