Lost Essay Found!

[watchman]

About a year ago an essay entitled A New Covenant for a New Creation (http://e-watchman.com/essays/new-covenant-new-creation.html)was published on e-watchman. But somehow, and I don't know when, the essay disappeared from the essays index. It was still on the server but it would have been impossible to find. Anyway, what was lost is now found and back on the essays index page.

Watchman

[Gabriel]

About a year ago an essay entitled A New Covenant for a New Creation (http://e-watchman.com/essays/new-covenant-new-creation.html)was published on e-watchman. But somehow, and I don't know when, the essay disappeared from the essays index. It was still on the server but it would have been impossible to find. Anyway, what was lost is now found and back on the essays index page.

Watchman[/b]

O, Yeah, I remember this one. very well written article Robert. My sentalments are the same now as the were the first time I read it. I group of spirit beings...UNDESTRUCATBLE....UNANSWERABLE to the Almighty Himself....I just dont trust it, I dont like it, and it makes me very uneasy. Lack of faith in God...ummm, I dont kno. What I do know is that we already have a group of spirit beings right now who were once a part of God's holy family and now they have all but destroyed not only MAN but the earthly creation as well. I just dont want to have to go through this whole thing again proving whose side we're on. it would be a complete desaster if one of these UNDESTRUCTABLES became another satan.

[watchman]

"I just dont want to have to go through this whole thing again proving whose side we're on. it would be a complete desaster if one of these UNDESTRUCTABLES became another satan."


That's hilarious. I hope you are joking. But if not, you really should find something else to worry about other than Christ or one of the 144,000 going over to the dark side after they have been granted life within themselves. It's not going to happen.

Watchman

[Gabriel]

"I just dont want to have to go through this whole thing again proving whose side we're on. it would be a complete desaster if one of these UNDESTRUCTABLES became another satan."


That's hilarious. I hope you are joking. But if not, you really should find something else to worry about other than Christ or one of the 144,000 going over to the dark side after they have been granted life within themselves. It's not going to happen.

Watchman[/b]

I kno...sounds crazy and no doubt it is. Just call it "Post Tramatic Stress" at this point im not comfortable with anyone having life within themselves other than Christ and Jehovah. Period.

[SlaveForJah]

Okay, so I'm gonna go out on a limb here.

This discussion brings up a question, to me at least. And it may be something that everyone here has already firmly in mind, but, I think Gabriel's trepidation is genuine, and should therefore be addressed.

So, my question is this: Is immortality a condition that cannot be reversed? Since it is Jehovah God who grants this gift of life within oneself, can He not take it away, if necessary at some point? What are the characteristics of immortality, and how does it differ from everlasting life?

I have a few thoughts, but would like to see what others think before I go off rambling again.


Pondering

SlaveForJah

[James]

Okay, so I'm gonna go out on a limb here.

This discussion brings up a question, to me at least. And it may be something that everyone here has already firmly in mind, but, I think Gabriel's trepidation is genuine, and should therefore be addressed.

So, my question is this: Is immortality a condition that cannot be reversed? Since it is Jehovah God who grants this gift of life within oneself, can He not take it away, if necessary at some point? What are the characteristics of immortality, and how does it differ from everlasting life?

I have a few thoughts, but would like to see what others think before I go off rambling again.


Pondering

SlaveForJah[/b]

Hi SlaveForJah,

Just a quick guess (I gotta run), but I would say it is conditional.

Just as Adam and Eve were promised life everlasting, as long as they didn't eat from the TREE.

Also with Jesus being promised to sit at Jehovah's right side as long as he remained FAITHFUL.

agape,
James

[Gabriel]

you know...Im not done with this yet. Robert youre a "MATTER OF FACT" Person...I kinda like that (sometimes) why dont share some scriptural proof with me as to why this is "Hilarious" Who would've thought at the time of all of God's freshly new created sons that anyone of them would turn Apostate, (granted, Man wasnt even created during that time but you get the point) The first angel that turned APOSTATE wasnt even the "run-of-the-mil" Kinda joe, but a very HIGH RANKING angel instead. And the guy even managed to drag a third of the heavens with him. Now im no BIBLE SCHOLAR like most of my Good brothers and sisters here and nore am I a Good speller or a Mathmatician, but a Third sounds like a pretty big number to me.

The only creation that has not sined against God is his Christ. He is the only one that I would trust with this UNDESTRUCTABILITY. Now im asking you, rather than make sarcastic remarks (which I like those sometimes too) give me a reason as to why I shouldnt fel the way I feel along with scriptual proof.

This should be a piece of cake for a awesome eassy writter like yourself. Hey you even pulled off provide answers to the book "100 questions to ask a Jehovah's Witness" You can do this one behind your back

[watchman]

Hi Gabriel

Of course it is unintended, but essentially you are making the very same arguement as Satan the Devil; and that is, that, no creature will be true to God when push comes to shove. The reason Christ and the 144,000 are granted life within themselves is to prove beyond any doubt that Satan is a liar.

Having life within one's self means that a creature is no longer dependent upon Jehovah to sustain their life. As it stands, all [others] of intelligent creation, including the faithful angelic sons of God, must depend upon Jehovah to sustain them. That will never change. And God's continued sustenance is conditional, based upon obedience to him.

So, what that means as regards Christ and the 144,000 is that their obedience is assured. It is not a question of whether God could destroy an immortal creation of his, of course he could. The point is, their obedience and loyalty to him will never be an issue. That Christ and the 144,000 will always be loyal has already been demonstrated in prophecy, where Paul foretold that after all creation has been made subject to Christ, then Christ himself subjects himself to Jehovah. Imagine that, all creation will be in subjection to Christ and he will willingly give it up, handing it all back to God! Can you imagine Satan the Devil doing that? :icon_rolleyes:

So, that's the point: Even though a select group of creatures will be given complete freedom and no longer will even need to depend upon Jehovah to protect and sustain them, they will, nonetheless, be forever submissive to Jehovah.

The reason God can have absolute confidence in his new creation is because at some point in the future God is going to plant in them a new heart and a new spirit. This is something that is beyond the human experience at present. But, for lack of a better way to describe it, the infusion of God's spirit in such measure will basically create 144,000 Christs. That's why Jesus is called the first among many brothers. So, if you feel comfortable with Christ having indestructability, then you should feel the same way about his brothers and fellow sons of Jehovah.

Watchman

[Jeshurun]

My dear Brother Gabriel

The legal case the Devil raised in the beginning is the reason for 6,000 years of human (and heavenly) suffering. It seems to me that Jehovah's sovereignty was never questioned until then. Once the final act plays out, no one will have any basis to make any more challenges to God's righteous decisions. His sovereignty will have been proven once and for all, and the same goes for the issue of good and evil. It's obvious that Satan had some sort of attack of mental delusion because he had so much authority and power that it went to his head, so to speak. That's why we read at Revelation 19:1-8:

After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said: “Praise Jah, YOU people! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God, 2 because his judgments are true and righteous. For he has executed judgment upon the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication, and he has avenged the blood of his slaves at her hand.” 3 And right away for the second time they said: “Praise Jah, YOU people! And the smoke from her goes on ascending forever and ever.”

4 And the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God seated upon the throne, and said: “Amen! Praise Jah, YOU people!”

5 Also, a voice issued forth from the throne and said: “Be praising our God, all YOU his slaves, who fear him, the small ones and the great.”

6 And I heard what was as a voice of a great crowd and as a sound of many waters and as a sound of heavy thunders. They said: “Praise Jah, YOU people, because Jehovah our God, the Almighty, has begun to rule as king. 7 Let us rejoice and be overjoyed, and let us give him the glory, because the marriage of the Lamb has arrived and his wife has prepared herself. 8 Yes, it has been granted to her to be arrayed in bright, clean, fine linen, for the fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the holy ones.”

After all this, you can rest assured that no one who has been given immortality could possibly experience similar delusions. All the issues will have been settled and there would be no basis for any challenges. And if anyone ever did again, they would have to know that they would be standing alone and they would be begging for their own annihilation. Why would they ever do that?

Agape,
Jesh

[Gabriel]

Thanks Robert and Jesh, your responces were well written. Im just "Paranoid" Thats all. Somethig Im sure will quickly fade in the new system. Im sure during that time someone will bring up this thread and I will be laughing uncontrolably about what I once thought and felt. Thanks again for your well written responces.

[Jinnvisible]

I group of spirit beings...UNDESTRUCATBLE....UNANSWERABLE to the Almighty Himself....I just dont trust it, I dont like it...................................

.................. it would be a complete desaster if one of these UNDESTRUCTABLES became another satan.[/b]

Life's source is pure; it turns bad it becomes death. So immortality and incorruptibleness are super symbiont.

My wifes favorite super hero is 'The Swamp Thing', which goes some way to explain her interest in me.

[TheCook]

This is an interesting topic, one that I've pondered on a lot myself and never gotten a satisfactory answer. It seems there are two different viewpoints with some variants: 1) The immortals are indestructable and incorruptible. They CANNOT, under any circumstances throughout eternity, sin. Jehovah CANNOT (due to his unmovable principles, not due to a lack of power) destroy them. No need for a Phantom Zone, hehe. 2) The incorruptibles are only incorruptible until they become corrupt. They are only immortal and indestructible until they become corrupt, then Jehovah destroys them and they die.


My wifes favorite super hero is 'The Swamp Thing', which goes some way to explain her interest in me.[/b]

Thanks for that one, Jinn :applaudit: It's the greatest thing to start the day with actually laughing out loud. My wife, had she ever been interested in comics, probably would have loved Thing from The Fantastic Four. I started out as Ben Grimm though...

[Berean]

I think it's a very good question, Gabriel, and a logical concern for human beings, having been through so many problems that have been induced by either fellow humans or fallen angels. It's something I often wonder about as well, things like this - how can it be that the perfect creation somehow went wrong, when Satan left the Father who created him? Was there always a potential for that to happen, simply because God created everything not pre-programmed, but with a basic neural network that could develop on its own? I'm talking about both humans and angels here.

Of course, God could have created everything perfectly pre-programmed so that nothing would go wrong at all. But what would the use be? The Bible reveals that Jehovah has feelings, and that must have been the initial reason to create his firstborn Son, and then us in our universe. We were made in His image, so we have inherited those same feelings (among which most notably love, but also anger and regret at times), but in an imperfect way. We know how wonderful it is to care for a creature who depends on us, but does so voluntarily, whether that creature be a child, or even a pet. I think God created us to have someone to give His eternal love to, the same reason why he created his Son.

I think Jehovah would not be interested in being surrounded by creatures who are automatically doing the right things. I don't think that will be the case with the 144,000 either, just as it wasn't with the Christ - he took the decision to give his life on his own, ultimately, which makes it all the greater. So in theory, I think it's not a logical impossibility that one of the 144,000 would apostatize - at least, the potential is there. In practice though, I think we should judge Jehovah's judgement - after all, he chose those kings and priests carefully, and they've already proven their worth in their Earthly lives. That's a big difference with Satan, who didn't believe in God, and never completed a successful spiritual career.

I think another thing to remember, if we should ever have to go through something like the test Adam and Eve have gone through (and failed miserably), that we are not alone on Earth. We are with many, many brothers and sisters who have already showed that they have a genuine faith in Jehovah, so that they won't easily be shaken. And even if someone goes wrong, it won't affect us all, since there won't be just two parents of the human family. Anyway, to summarize, in my opinion, it is not outside the realm of possibility that something would go wrong, but with our previous experiences - everyone in paradise and all the 144,000 will know exactly that Satan and his fellows are pure evil - I think a mistake like Adam and Eve's, who were spiritually inexperienced and immature will probably never come to pass.

[Candace]

Why you gotta love Gabriel: He asks the questions some of us don't ever think of, and wonder why that thought never crossed our mind, or he asks the questions some of us have been wondering about for a long time, but were too chicken to post. I like how Gabriel makes me exercise my brain cells, and I like his honesty and willingness to ask all kinds of questions.

This turned out to be a very interesting discussion, so much so, that I bookmarked it for future reference. Thanks for everyone's replies. Until Gabriel had raised the question I hadn't really given much thought to the matter, but once he raised the question I was very interested to see what kind of responses would be posted. This is the kind of discussion that keeps me coming back to this forum.