The Disgusting Thing That Is Causing Desolation?

[Nambo]

More questions Iam afraid Watchman as I read through Jehovah Himself has become King.

So, my understanding is that the society considers the United Nations to be the disgusting thing that is causing desolation standing in a Holy place, because it claims to be "the political representation of Gods Kingdom on Earth.

Are you saying that the "Holy Place" is actually Spiritual Israel? ie, the United Nations somehow managing to infultrate or take over the Governing Body/Faithfull Descreet Slave?

This does sound more feasable to me as the typical example was the Roman army standing in Gods physical temple so an anti-typical makes more sense if its also standing in Jehovahs actual Spiritual temple.

If this is the case, I wonder how it might be achieved and in view of Jesus remark for the reader to use discernment, wither it will be readily apparent to the rank and file?

Do you think maybe this is allready starting to occur?, hence the UN NGO affair, and the fact that the society are actually disfellowshipping annointed ones like yourself and brother Franz who dare try and expose such things?

Or is it more likely to happen at the start of the 1260 days when "authority to act forty-two months was given it. 6 (http://) And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his residence," and "even those residing in heaven. But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary], cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.",

Now if the Courtyard represents the Holy ones still on Earth who havnt gone into the actual Temple at Death, it does indeed look like the UN do indeed actually enter, or take over the Jehovahs Witnesses for the 42 months during which time it surely would cause desolation to any JWs who have not taken Jesus advice to flee to the mountains as it uses Jehovahs very mouthpiece on Earth at this time, to blaspheme God and his coming Kingdom.

And might this even be the test for the Witnesses that the Jews had, aligence to God or too your religion?

Have I got hold of this concept correctly Watchman?

[stayawake]

[Dear Nambo,
my thoughts also go along with yours in wondering if the WT and the NGO does'nt have something to do with Jesus saying "Let the reader use discernment".
When one sees what damage was done to the organization, with this hitting the public it certainly must mean somthing BIG in regards to the house of God .
It is Public Knowledge , yet the GB is still trying to hide it, even lying about it. Attacking those that know and cutting them off should they whisper a word about it.
Jonn 8:44 The father of the lie is Satan.
One way i can look at it is ,YES i believe the UN was able to infiltrate the House of god.
How !
Thru the 66 Awakes,that were put out in ten years , where these magazines HAD to mention the good the UN was doing for mankind, doing so is what kept them a NGO member. This was a REQUIREMENT>
Those magizines were DEDICATED To Jehovah God, yet Satan was able to infiltrate what belonged to Jah. Drunken Shepherds indeed. I only speak for my self
Strange that the number of Awakes used were 66.
love stayawake

[Jeshurun]

It has become painfully obvious that the complexity of the alliance between the Watchtower and the New World Order will not become manifest until it rises from the abyss. Jesus' words seem to indicate that Jehovah's people will be able to "catch sight of" it from within the organization. It's preliminary stage is already visible on the internet, but sadly Jehovah's Witnesses are forbidden from looking here. I applaud and celebrate those of you who have the courage and wherewithal to look here anyway. There is much more to the world wide web than just Satan, Jehovah can use it to his advantage too, and I believe he has chosen to.

[watchman]

Hi Nambo

God's "holy place" is the anointed congregation. By extension it is the Watchtower Society since that organization has been used to do the work of the anointed. Unquestionably the Watchtower organization is dedicated to Jehovah. So, the desolation of the holy place will likely involve the destruction of the Watchtower Society. More than likely that will be accomplished indirectly by means of a global financial collapse. Remember, the king of fierce countenance brings to ruin not only the holy ones but also the mighty ones of this system.

But the desolation of the holy place may also come in the form of direct government suppression. In a time of war and martial law the WT Society may be veiwed as a seditious organization, much like what happened during the other two world wars. But, this time around Jehovah won't me in their corner and the constitutional quaranties that the Society used to their advantage in the past will not exist then.

I see this upcoming nuclear attack on Iran as the trigger to bring about the collapse of the United States in fulfillment of the prophecy of the death stroke upon the head of the beast. Then the system will re-emerge with the United Nations as a world government and the democratic nation-state system becoming history. Jehovah's Witnesses will abandon the Watchtower and Jehovah will re-constitute a spiritual organization around the sealed sons of the kingdom, who will then have been infused with a new and indominable spirit.

[Nambo]

Hi Nambo

God's "holy place" is the anointed congregation. By extension it is the Watchtower Society since that organization has been used to do the work of the anointed. Unquestionably the Watchtower organization is dedicated to Jehovah. So, the desolation of the holy place will likely involve the destruction of the Watchtower Society. More than likely that will be accomplished indirectly by means of a global financial collapse. Remember, the king of fierce countenance brings to ruin not only the holy ones but also the mighty ones of this system.

But the desolation of the holy place may also come in the form of direct government suppression. In a time of war and martial law the WT Society may be veiwed as a seditious organization, much like what happened during the other two world wars. But, this time around Jehovah won't me in their corner and the constitutional quaranties that the Society used to their advantage in the past will not exist then.

I see this upcoming nuclear attack on Iran as the trigger to bring about the collapse of the United States in fulfillment of the prophecy of the death stroke upon the head of the beast. Then the system will re-emerge with the United Nations as a world government and the democratic nation-state system becoming history. Jehovah's Witnesses will abandon the Watchtower and Jehovah will re-constitute a spiritual organization around the sealed sons of the kingdom, who will then have been infused with a new and indominable spirit.[/b]

Thanks Watchman, it all makes sense.

so you consider America gets the death stroke and then the UN?NWO takes over.

Rev 13 though says "3 (http://) And I saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death, but its death-stroke got healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration. 4 (http://) And they worshiped the dragon because it gave the authority to the wild beast, and they worshiped the wild beast with the words: “Who is like the wild beast, and who can do battle with it?” 5 (http://) And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it, and authority to act forty-two months was given it"


Does this not imply that the Death Stroke is healed by the time the NWO/UN is put in place and authority is given it to harrass the Holy Ones for 42 months?

[Eli's Foe]

I see this upcoming nuclear attack on Iran as the trigger to bring about the collapse of the United States in fulfillment of the prophecy of the death stroke upon the head of the beast. Then the system will re-emerge with the United Nations as a world government and the democratic nation-state system becoming history. Jehovah's Witnesses will abandon the Watchtower and Jehovah will re-constitute a spiritual organization around the sealed sons of the kingdom, who will then have been infused with a new and indominable spirit.[/quote]



Nambo,

this is quite a statement from Watchman, but before we get too carried away lets remember the lessons of the past. We've seen categoric statements in the past from the WTS, which have ended in disappointment!
Dont get me wrong, I have great respect for Robert and can only thank him for opening my eyes to many truths. I get a little nervous however when I see him say something like this. Obviously he could be 100% right, time will tell. Equally, there are other ways in which the prophecies could be fulfilled and in ways which we cant quite foresee today but might present themselves in months or even years to come.
My first reaction to the latest blog regarding the Iran situation was surprise, especially the link to Lyndon LaRouche who is widely viewed as rather extreme in his views. Further research does in fact confirm the concern being expressed in recent weeks by more credible sources, though it is true to say that this has not had a very high profile in the British media.
Additionally, whilst the emphasis on the moving forward of the hands on the doomsday clock has been focused on the rising nuclear threat, the bulletin itself also refers strongly to the environmental threat of global warming, and indeed the BBC's reporting focused on that aspect.
Time will tell as to how things play out, the important thing is that we are awake to world events and how our brothers and sisters will be affected.
Naturally there is a strong desire in all our hearts to see Jehovah act at last, but I suggest we do not pin our hopes on any single possibility but remain open to any possibility at any time.

EF

[Berean]

Time will tell as to how things play out, the important thing is that we are awake to world events and how our brothers and sisters will be affected.
Naturally there is a strong desire in all our hearts to see Jehovah act at last, but I suggest we do not pin our hopes on any single possibility but remain open to any possibility at any time.[/b]

Those are wise words. We're all eager for this system of things to end, and we're closely watching what happens in the world, but we do not want to have 1975 all over again. If we do not see prophecies being fulfilled as we had expected, we shouldn't lose our trust and faith in Jehovah. After all, the apostles thought that Jesus would restore his kingdom in their lifetimes, but when they found things didn't go like that, they still remained faithful until death.

[stayawake]

[Yep i agree
All possibilities are open.
No dates,
That way ,there will be no dissipointments
Yet always waiting in expectation of it to happen,
calls for the Spirit of a SOUND mind .
love stayawake

[Kenneth]

Jehovah's Witnesses will abandon the Watchtower and Jehovah will re-constitute a spiritual organization around the sealed sons of the kingdom, who will then have been infused with a new and indominable spirit.[/b]

Hi Robert

I understand the logic to this but how will it manifest itself. Satan will no doubt set up counterfeit groups to mislead us so how will we know who's who in the end, what will be the identifying mark of the true anointed?


Kenneth

[NEW HEART]

Jehovah's Witnesses will abandon the Watchtower and Jehovah will re-constitute a spiritual organization around the sealed sons of the kingdom, who will then have been infused with a new and indominable spirit.[/b]

Hi Robert

I understand the logic to this but how will it manifest itself. Satan will no doubt set up counterfeit groups to mislead us so how will we know who's who in the end, what will be the identifying mark of the true anointed?


Kenneth
[/b]


The true annointed already know who they are, for they have already been sealed or soon will be in the process of being sealed. Only they can describe how that feels to be sealed and having this revealed to them personally. It is not just a feeling one gets but something very striking that happens to them. Soon, the glory of the sons of God will be revealed to all the world and everyone will be able to tell who these ones are just by looking at them. They have already been shown their glorified spiritual body in their perfect state.

Sis New Heart

[Jinnvisible]

for they have already been sealed or soon will be in the process of being sealed. ..............Sis New Heart[/b]

It`s a bit like saying the .........Great Tribulation is here now !...........or,,,,,, soon will be.

A small step for New Heart..............but a giant leap for mankind.

[littleone]

So, my understanding is that the society considers the United Nations to be the disgusting thing that is causing desolation standing in a Holy place, because it claims to be "the political representation of Gods Kingdom on Earth....


This does sound more feasable to me as the typical example was the Roman army standing in Gods physical temple so an anti-typical makes more sense if its also standing in Jehovahs actual Spiritual temple....[/b]Who really claims to be the "representation of God's Kingdom" on Earth?

When speaking of the Roman Army being the "antitype" of Jesus' prophecies. Lets consider to "whom" the Roman armies proved to be a "disgusting thing". Was it really a "disgusting thing" in Jehovah's eyes?

We know from reading Acts 1:6,7 that the disciples themselves were interested when the kingdom would be restored to Israel. They were full aware that Israel was under foreign Roman domination. As a matter of fact, Israel was under a foreign yoke since the time that it came out of Babylonish captivity. First under Persian/Mede rule, then Greek, and finally Roman. We know that Israel did have vasal Kings during Rome's rule (king Herod), but they did NOT excersize Sovreignty. Thus we see that Ezekiel's words at Ezekiel 21:26 proved to be true when Jehovah said:

This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, 'Remove the turban, and lift off the crown... As for this also, it will certainly become no [one's] until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give [it] to him.' - Ezekiel 21:26

We know that he with the "Legal right" proved to be Jesus Christ. Unfortunately, the nation of Israel rejected the one with "legal right". Therefore, what did that leave them with? Jesus tells them:

Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,—how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But YOU people did not want it. Look! YOUR house is abandoned to YOU. For I say to YOU, YOU will by no means see me from henceforth until YOU say, 'Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah's name! - Matthew 23:37-39

We see that their "house" was abandoned to them. No more would it be said that they're "God's people". Jehovah created a "new house", with Jesus Christ as its foundation corner stone. Those who were apart of the "new house" would be those who are called "Sons of God". They would become "spiritual Israel". The earthly temple in Jerusalem was now abandonned by Jehovah. No longer would his spirit be there. Rather, his spirit would now inhabit the "new house".

There were consequences for rejecting Jesus Christ. For Jesus says concerning Jerusalem:

"And when he got nearby, he viewed the city and wept over it, saying: "If you, even you, had discerned in this day the things having to do with peace—but now they have been hid from your eyes. Because the days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification with pointed stakes and will encircle you and distress you from every side, and they will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected." - Luke 19:41-44<a href="http://" target="_blank">

</a>So Jesus did mention to them the consequences for the actions that they themselves had taken.

So this leads us to the question: "Would the Roman army that fullfilled Jesus&#39; prophecy, and gave Israel its just retribution for its rejection of Jehovah&#39;s son Jesus Christ be something that was disgusting in Jehovah&#39;s eyes? Or rather would it be only disgusting in the unfaithful nation&#39;s eyes?"

Furthermore, could it be said that Jerusalem&#39;s temple was a "holy place" in Jehovah&#39;s eyes? Or was it only a "holy place" in the unfaithful nation&#39;s eyes?

Furthermore, what was the "CAUSE" of Jerusalem&#39;s desolation in Jehovah&#39;s eyes? Was the desolation caused by Roman soldiers putting their insignia flags in the temple that Jehovah had already abandonned? Or was it instead because the nation of Israel rejected his son Jesus Christ?

We know that the temple of Jerusalem was once destroyed before during the days of Nebuchanezzar. The Babylonians also desecrated the temple, but why? Was it not because of Israel&#39;s own transgressions against Jehovah? Was Nebuchanezzar&#39;s armies considered a "disgusting thing" in Jehovah&#39;s eyes at that time? No. For he was the one that sent them against Jerusalem. Why did he send them? Because of Israel&#39;s own transgressions against him.

Likewise, would Jesus call Jehovah&#39;s hand of retribution (the Roman armies) against unfaithful Jerusalem in his day a "disgusting thing"?

What did Jesus really say to his disciples in Matthew 24:15, and in Mark 13:14?
<a href="http://" target="_blank">
</a>"Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment)" - Matthew 24:15

"However, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation standing where it ought not (let the reader use discernment), then let those in Ju·de´a begin fleeing to the mountains." - Mark 13:14<a href="http://" target="_blank">

</a>Twice we are told to "let the reader use discernment". So lets use some discernment and look at the prophecies in Daniel, and see if it will give us some discernment:
<a href="http://" target="_blank">
</a>And out of one of them there came forth another horn, a small one, and it kept getting very much greater toward the south and toward the sunrising and toward the Decoration. And it kept getting greater all the way to the army of the heavens, so that it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it went trampling them down. And all the way to the Prince of the army it put on great airs, and from him the constant [feature] was taken away, and the established place of his sanctuary was thrown down. And an army itself was gradually given over, together with the constant [feature], because of transgression; and it kept throwing truth to the earth, and it acted and had success. - Daniel 8:9-12<a href="http://" target="_blank">

</a>So why was the army "gradually given over"? It answers us... "because of transgression". Hmm... interesting. Lets continue to read:<a href="http://" target="_blank">

</a>And I got to hear a certain holy one speaking, and another holy one proceeded to say to the particular one who was speaking: "How long will the vision be of the constant [feature] and of the transgression causing desolation, to make both [the] holy place and [the] army things to trample on?" 14 So he said to me: "Until two thousand three hundred evenings [and] mornings; and [the] holy place will certainly be brought into its right condition."<a href="http://" target="_blank">

</a>What does Daniel tell us is the "CAUSE" of desolation? Transgression. Transgression by whom though? And transgression against what? Lets read in Daniel chapter 11:<a href="http://" target="_blank">

</a>And he will actually go back and hurl denunciations against the holy covenant and act effectively; and he will have to go back and will give consideration to those leaving the holy covenant. 31 And there will be arms that will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will actually profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant [feature]. "And they will certainly put in place the disgusting thing that is causing desolation.

32 "And those who are acting wickedly against [the] covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words. But as regards the people who are knowing their God, they will prevail and act effectively. <a href="http://" target="_blank">
</a>
Apparently the King of the North here is not under the "holy covenant", but he is hurling denunciations against it. But there are those who ARE "leaving the holy covenant". To these, he does give considerations to. But notice, that it is not the King of the North himself that puts in place the "disgusting thing", rather it is those who are leaving the "holy covenant".

What happens to those who are "acting wickedly" against the covenant? It says that he&#39;ll "lead" those ones "into apostasy". So we learn from this that it is "those" who are apart of the "covenant" that "turn against" it. This is the "transgression" being spoken about. But not all are transgressors, because the scripture tells us: "But as regards the people who are knowing their God, they will prevail and act effectively."

Lets go back to chapter 8 and see what it says on the matter:

And in the final part of their kingdom, as the transgressors act to a completion, there will stand up a king fierce in countenance and understanding ambiguous sayings. And his power must become mighty, but not by his own power. And in a wonderful way he will cause ruin, and he will certainly prove successful and do effectively. And he will actually bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of [the] holy ones. And according to his insight he will also certainly cause deception to succeed in his hand. And in his heart he will put on great airs, and during a freedom from care he will bring many to ruin. And against the Prince of princes he will stand up, but it will be without hand that he will be broken.

Notice how it says "he will actually bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of the holy ones"? But we&#39;re given assurance that not "all" who are made up of the "holy ones" will be made to stumble. The scriptures tell us: "But as regards the people who are knowing their God, they will prevail and act effectively"

It becomes clear that the "transgression" spoken about in Daniel&#39;s prophecy is against the "holy covenant" itself. That covenant is between Jesus Christ and his anointed followers. Therefore, those "acting wickedly" against the covenant are infact those who act wickedly against Jesus Christ. They reject him. That is why they are "led" into "apostasy". This is the "transgression that causes desolation". What these ones put in place is something to "replace" Jesus Christ. Now wouldn&#39;t that be something that is "disgusting" in Jehovah&#39;s eyes? Would this not cause desolation upon them?

My whole point is, that just as Satan has caused things to happen in 1914 that "some" point to as the fulfillment of prophecy. Could he not also cause many to look at the events that happened in 66 - 70 AD, and cause them to also misapply prophecy? Did not Jesus tell us to "use discernment" concerning the "disgusting thing"?

The Roman armies that encircled Jerusalem could not be in fulfillment of Daniel&#39;s prophecy concerning the "disgusting thing". As the Roman armies were NOT disgusting in Jehovah&#39;s eyes. Rather, he used the Roman armies to pay retribution to those who rejected Jesus Christ. The only ones who could consider the Roman armies as a "disgusting thing" was unfaithful Jerusalem. Surely we shouldn&#39;t consider Jehovah&#39;s retribution upon them as a "disgusting thing".

Who really claims to be today&#39;s representation of God&#39;s kingdom on Earth?

[panda]

The Governing Body claims to be the Faithful and Descrete Slave that gives food at the proper time to Jehovah&#39;s sheep, and Jesus is the head of the congregation. Therefore they claim to be the only representatives of Gods Kingdom on earth, they being the only channel in which Jehovah uses to have his Kingdom preached and the spiritual food supplied.
Well therefore we have every right to question the WTBTS when these scanderlous accusations surface. Make sure of all things, hold on to what is fine (1Thess 5:21)
It appears that you have a valid point in raising this question about the disgusting thing being very similar to the Roman Empire/ UN Jehovah&#39;s temple/bethel NY. Oh well speculation arises, but hey who&#39;s fault is that, if they hadn&#39;t done what they did be nothing to talk about, but then are we suppose to turn a blind eye on something that is bringing so much reproach on Jehovah&#39;s name, speak up and be labled apostates for daring to question the GB.

[littleone]

Of interest to note is that the Jews were infact under the Roman yoke in 66AD. It was because they rebelled that the Romans came and surrounded them and then destroyed Jerusalem.

Likewise, we today too are under the yoke of the "superior authorities".

Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves. 3For those ruling are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you, then, want to have no fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; 4 for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear: for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword; for it is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath upon the one practicing what is bad. - Romans 13:1-4

Just as the Roman armies proved to be "an avenger to express wrath upon the one practicing what is bad", will it be no different today? The Jews rebelled against Jehovah himself by rejecting his Son Jesus Christ, but they also rebelled against the Roman yoke that they were under. Does it not seem fitting that Jehovah used the Romans to express his "wrath" upon those that were "practicing what was bad"?

Likewise today, we hear of reports that the society is telling people that the "preaching work" is over. What would be next? If they decided to rebel as the jews did, and not subject themselves to the "superior authorities", what would be the outcome from Jehovah&#39;s standpoint?

[Jeshurun]

The Governing Body claims to be the Faithful and Descrete Slave that gives food at the proper time to Jehovah&#39;s sheep, and Jesus is the head of the congregation. Therefore they claim to be the only representatives of Gods Kingdom on earth, they being the only channel in which Jehovah uses to have his Kingdom preached and the spiritual food supplied.
Well therefore we have every right to question the WTBTS when these scanderlous accusations surface. Make sure of all things, hold on to what is fine (1Thess 5:21)
It appears that you have a valid point in raising this question about the disgusting thing being very similar to the Roman Empire/ UN Jehovah&#39;s temple/bethel NY. Oh well speculation arises, but hey who&#39;s fault is that, if they hadn&#39;t done what they did be nothing to talk about, but then are we suppose to turn a blind eye on something that is bringing so much reproach on Jehovah&#39;s name, speak up and be labled apostates for daring to question the GB.[/b]

Everything that you&#39;re saying, panda, and that we say in our posts, simply reflects how Jehovah himself feels, and we are very much aware of that. We would love nothing more than for Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses to realize Jehovah&#39;s pain because of what&#39;s going on in the organization that carries his name, and represents him. He is not happy! I&#39;m sure you&#39;re familiar with this scripture, but I will quote it here just to remind us all once again where the Watchtower stands in Jehovah&#39;s eyes. So here it is, the entire 13th chapter of Ezekiel:

13 And the word of Jehovah continued to occur to me, saying: 2 “Son of man, prophesy concerning the prophets of Israel who are prophesying, and you must say to those prophesying out of their own heart, ‘Hear the word of Jehovah. 3 This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “Woe to the stupid prophets, who are walking after their own spirit, when there is nothing that they have seen! 4 Like foxes in the devastated places are what your own prophets have become, O Israel. 5 YOU men will certainly not go up into the gaps, neither will YOU build up a stone wall in behalf of the house of Israel, in order to stand in the battle in the day of Jehovah.” 6 “They have visioned what is untrue and a lying divination, those who are saying, ‘The utterance of Jehovah is,’ when Jehovah himself has not sent them, and they have waited to have a word come true. 7 Is it not an untrue vision that YOU men have visioned, and a lying divination that YOU have said, when saying, ‘The utterance of Jehovah is,’ when I myself have spoken nothing?”’

8 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “‘For the reason that YOU men have spoken untruth and YOU have visioned a lie, therefore here I am against YOU,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.” 9 And my hand has come to be against the prophets that are visioning untruth and that are divining a lie. In the intimate group of my people they will not continue on, and in the register of the house of Israel they will not be written, and to the soil of Israel they will not come; and YOU people will have to know that I am the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, 10 for the reason, yes, for the reason that they have led my people astray, saying, “There is peace!” when there is no peace, and there is one that is building a partition wall, but in vain there are those plastering it with whitewash.’

11 “Say to those plastering with whitewash that it will fall. A flooding downpour will certainly occur, and YOU, O hailstones, will fall, and a blast of windstorms itself will cause a splitting. 12 And, look! the wall must fall. Will it not be said to YOU men, ‘Where is the coating with which YOU did the plastering?’

13 “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘I will also cause a blast of windstorms to burst forth in my rage, and in my anger there will occur a flooding downpour, and in rage there will be hailstones for an extermination. 14 And I will tear down the wall that YOU men have plastered with whitewash and bring it into contact with the earth, and its foundation must be exposed. And she will certainly fall, and YOU must come to an end in the midst of her; and YOU will have to know that I am Jehovah.’

15 “‘And I will bring my rage to its finish upon the wall and upon those plastering it with whitewash, and I shall say to YOU men: “The wall is no more, and those plastering it are no more, 16 the prophets of Israel that are prophesying to Jerusalem and that are visioning for her a vision of peace, when there is no peace,”’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.

17 “And as for you, O son of man, set your face against the daughters of your people who are acting as prophetesses out of their own heart, and prophesy against them. 18 And you must say, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “Woe to the women sewing bands together upon all elbows and making veils upon the head of every size in order to hunt souls! Are the souls that YOU women hunt down the ones belonging to my people, and the souls belonging to YOU the ones that YOU preserve alive? 19 And will YOU profane me toward my people for the handfuls of barley and for the morsels of bread, in order to put to death the souls that ought not to die and in order to preserve alive the souls that ought not to live by YOUR lie to my people, the hearers of a lie?”’

20 “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Here I am against the bands of YOU women, with which YOU are hunting down the souls as though they were flying things, and I will rip them from off YOUR arms and let go the souls that YOU are hunting down, souls as though they were flying things. 21 And I will rip away YOUR veils and deliver my people out of YOUR hand, and they will no more prove to be in YOUR hand something caught in the hunt; and YOU will have to know that I am Jehovah. 22 By reason of dejecting the heart of a righteous one with falsehood, when I myself had not caused him pain, and for making the hands of a wicked one strong so that he would not turn back from his bad way in order to preserve him alive, 23 therefore untruth YOU women will not keep on visioning, and divination YOU will divine no longer; and I will deliver my people out of YOUR hand, and YOU will have to know that I am Jehovah.’”

[panda]

<div class='quotemain'>The Governing Body claims to be the Faithful and Descrete Slave that gives food at the proper time to Jehovah&#39;s sheep, and Jesus is the head of the congregation. Therefore they claim to be the only representatives of Gods Kingdom on earth, they being the only channel in which Jehovah uses to have his Kingdom preached and the spiritual food supplied.
Well therefore we have every right to question the WTBTS when these scanderlous accusations surface. Make sure of all things, hold on to what is fine (1Thess 5:21)
It appears that you have a valid point in raising this question about the disgusting thing being very similar to the Roman Empire/ UN Jehovah&#39;s temple/bethel NY. Oh well speculation arises, but hey who&#39;s fault is that, if they hadn&#39;t done what they did be nothing to talk about, but then are we suppose to turn a blind eye on something that is bringing so much reproach on Jehovah&#39;s name, speak up and be labled apostates for daring to question the GB.[/b]

Everything that you&#39;re saying, panda, and that we say in our posts, simply reflects how Jehovah himself feels, and we are very much aware of that. We would love nothing more than for Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses to realize Jehovah&#39;s pain because of what&#39;s going on in the organization that carries his name, and represents him. He is not happy! I&#39;m sure you&#39;re familiar with this scripture, but I will quote it here just to remind us all once again where the Watchtower stands in Jehovah&#39;s eyes. So here it is, the entire 13th chapter of Ezekiel:

13 And the word of Jehovah continued to occur to me, saying: 2 "Son of man, prophesy concerning the prophets of Israel who are prophesying, and you must say to those prophesying out of their own heart, &#39;Hear the word of Jehovah. 3 This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: "Woe to the stupid prophets, who are walking after their own spirit, when there is nothing that they have seen! 4 Like foxes in the devastated places are what your own prophets have become, O Israel. 5 YOU men will certainly not go up into the gaps, neither will YOU build up a stone wall in behalf of the house of Israel, in order to stand in the battle in the day of Jehovah." 6 "They have visioned what is untrue and a lying divination, those who are saying, &#39;The utterance of Jehovah is,&#39; when Jehovah himself has not sent them, and they have waited to have a word come true. 7 Is it not an untrue vision that YOU men have visioned, and a lying divination that YOU have said, when saying, &#39;The utterance of Jehovah is,&#39; when I myself have spoken nothing?"&#39;

8 "&#39;Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: "&#39;For the reason that YOU men have spoken untruth and YOU have visioned a lie, therefore here I am against YOU,&#39; is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah." 9 And my hand has come to be against the prophets that are visioning untruth and that are divining a lie. In the intimate group of my people they will not continue on, and in the register of the house of Israel they will not be written, and to the soil of Israel they will not come; and YOU people will have to know that I am the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, 10 for the reason, yes, for the reason that they have led my people astray, saying, "There is peace!" when there is no peace, and there is one that is building a partition wall, but in vain there are those plastering it with whitewash.&#39;

11 "Say to those plastering with whitewash that it will fall. A flooding downpour will certainly occur, and YOU, O hailstones, will fall, and a blast of windstorms itself will cause a splitting. 12 And, look! the wall must fall. Will it not be said to YOU men, &#39;Where is the coating with which YOU did the plastering?&#39;

13 "Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, &#39;I will also cause a blast of windstorms to burst forth in my rage, and in my anger there will occur a flooding downpour, and in rage there will be hailstones for an extermination. 14 And I will tear down the wall that YOU men have plastered with whitewash and bring it into contact with the earth, and its foundation must be exposed. And she will certainly fall, and YOU must come to an end in the midst of her; and YOU will have to know that I am Jehovah.&#39;

15 "&#39;And I will bring my rage to its finish upon the wall and upon those plastering it with whitewash, and I shall say to YOU men: "The wall is no more, and those plastering it are no more, 16 the prophets of Israel that are prophesying to Jerusalem and that are visioning for her a vision of peace, when there is no peace,"&#39; is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.

17 "And as for you, O son of man, set your face against the daughters of your people who are acting as prophetesses out of their own heart, and prophesy against them. 18 And you must say, &#39;This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: "Woe to the women sewing bands together upon all elbows and making veils upon the head of every size in order to hunt souls! Are the souls that YOU women hunt down the ones belonging to my people, and the souls belonging to YOU the ones that YOU preserve alive? 19 And will YOU profane me toward my people for the handfuls of barley and for the morsels of bread, in order to put to death the souls that ought not to die and in order to preserve alive the souls that ought not to live by YOUR lie to my people, the hearers of a lie?"&#39;

20 "Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, &#39;Here I am against the bands of YOU women, with which YOU are hunting down the souls as though they were flying things, and I will rip them from off YOUR arms and let go the souls that YOU are hunting down, souls as though they were flying things. 21 And I will rip away YOUR veils and deliver my people out of YOUR hand, and they will no more prove to be in YOUR hand something caught in the hunt; and YOU will have to know that I am Jehovah. 22 By reason of dejecting the heart of a righteous one with falsehood, when I myself had not caused him pain, and for making the hands of a wicked one strong so that he would not turn back from his bad way in order to preserve him alive, 23 therefore untruth YOU women will not keep on visioning, and divination YOU will divine no longer; and I will deliver my people out of YOUR hand, and YOU will have to know that I am Jehovah.&#39;"
[/b][/quote]Thank you....it is such a relief to see that I am not alone in my thoughts on all this...

much appreciated.

[sir_chan]

<div align="center">
At Mat 24:15 Jesus tells us the when we "catch sight" of the disgusting thing that we are to flee to the mountains. We understand that this has future application but when and in what way would we "catch sight" I haven&#39;t been able to see much talk about on here although i&#39;m sure it&#39;s been mentioned quite a few times. I am adding to this older post to see if I can add anything to it. Here is what i found and would like to continute this post from a almost 2 years ago.

Most bibles translate the verse with the word "see" instead of "catch sight". Which gives the reader the idea that it would something seen as with the eye. However the NWT has translated it as "catch sight" which implies that it may not be directly seen but more or less observed. The website www.biblos.com (http://www.biblos.com) has excellent research facilities within it to find out the ORIGINAL meanings of the words used in the text. Here is the link to the page for your review as well http://concordance.biblos.com/ide_te.htm


The original word used at Mt 24:15 and Mk 13:14 is the greek word ἴδητε (idēte) which is used 12 times in the bible. It&#39;s meaning is :be aware, behold, consider, perceive

I am listing the 12 times it is used below with the greek and the word bolded in each for you to see(not perceive :) Matthew 13:14 καὶ ἀναπληροῦται αὐτοῖς ἡ προφητεία Ἠσαΐου ἡ λέγουσα· ἀκοῇ ἀκούσετε καὶ οὐ μὴ συνῆτε, καὶ βλέποντες βλέψετε καὶ οὐ μὴ ἴδητε.
In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says, &#39;By hearing you will hear, and will in no way understand; Seeing you will see, and will in no way perceive:
</div>

Matthew 23:39 λέγω γὰρ ὑμῖν, οὐ μή με ἴδητε ἀπ&#39; ἄρτι ἕως ἂν εἴπητε· εὐλογημένος ὁ ἐρχόμενος ἐν ὀνόματι κυρίου.
For I tell you, you will not see me from now on, until you say, &#39;Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!&#39;"


Matthew 24:15 ὅταν οὖν ἴδητε τὸ βδέλυγμα τῆς ἐρημώσεως τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Δανιὴλ τοῦ προφήτου ἑστὸς ἐν τόπῳ ἁγίῳ ὁ ἀναγινώσκων νοείτω,
"When, therefore, you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),


Matthew 24:33 οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς ὅταν ἴδητε πάντα ταῦτα, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγύς ἐστιν ἐπὶ θύραις.
Even so you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.


Mark 13:14 ὅταν δὲ ἴδητε τὸ βδέλυγμα τῆς ἐρημώσεως ἑστηκότα ὅπου οὐ δεῖ, ὁ ἀναγινώσκων νοείτω, τότε οἱ ἐν τῇ Ἰουδαίᾳ φευγέτωσαν εἰς τὰ ὄρη,
But when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains,


Mark 13:29 οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς ὅταν ἴδητε ταῦτα γινόμενα, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγύς ἐστιν ἐπὶ θύραις.
even so you also, when you see these things coming to pass, know that it is near, at the doors.


Luke 12:54 ἔλεγεν δὲ καὶ τοῖς ὄχλοις· ὅταν ἴδητε [τὴν] νεφέλην ἀνατέλλουσαν ἐπὶ δυσμῶν, εὐθέως λέγετε ὅτι ὄμβρος ἔρχεται, καὶ γίνεται οὕτως·
He said to the multitudes also, "When you see a cloud rising from the west, immediately you say, &#39;A shower is coming,&#39; and so it happens.


Luke 13:35 ἰδοὺ ἀφίεται ὑμῖν ὁ οἶκος ὑμῶν. λέγω δὲ ὑμῖν. οὐ μὴ ἴδητέ με ἕως [ἥξει ὅτε] εἴπητε· εὐλογημένος ὁ ἐρχόμενος ἐν ὀνόματι κυρίου.
Behold, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me, until you say, &#39;Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!&#39;"


Luke 21:20 ὅταν δὲ ἴδητε κυκλουμένην ὑπὸ στρατοπέδων Ἰερουσαλήμ, τότε γνῶτε ὅτι ἤγγικεν ἡ ἐρήμωσις αὐτῆς.
"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is at hand.


Luke 21:31 οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς, ὅταν ἴδητε ταῦτα γινόμενα, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγύς ἐστιν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ.
Even so you also, when you see these things happening, know that the Kingdom of God is near.


John 4:48 εἶπεν οὖν ὁ Ἰησοῦς πρὸς αὐτόν ἐὰν μὴ σημεῖα καὶ τέρατα ἴδητε οὐ μὴ πιστεύσητε.
Jesus therefore said to him, "Unless you see signs and wonders, you will in no way believe."
Acts 28:26 λέγων· πορεύθητι πρὸς τὸν λαὸν τοῦτον καὶ εἰπόν· ἀκοῇ ἀκούσετε καὶ οὐ μὴ συνῆτε καὶ βλέποντες βλέψετε καὶ οὐ μὴ ἴδητε·
saying, &#39;Go to this people, and say, in hearing, you will hear, but will in no way understand. In seeing, you will see, but will in no way perceive.


My point or rather my question is:

[sir_chan]

<div align="center">
At Mat 24:15 Jesus tells us the when we "catch sight" of the disgusting thing that we are to flee to the mountains. We understand that this has future application but when and in what way would we "catch sight" I haven&#39;t been able to see much talk about on here although i&#39;m sure it&#39;s been mentioned quite a few times. I am adding to this older post to see if I can add anything to it. Here is what i found and would like to continute this post from a almost 2 years ago.

Most bibles translate the verse with the word "see" instead of "catch sight". Which gives the reader the idea that it would something seen as with the eye. However the NWT has translated it as "catch sight" which implies that it may not be directly seen but more or less observed. The website www.biblos.com (http://www.biblos.com) has excellent research facilities within it to find out the ORIGINAL meanings of the words used in the text. Here is the link to the page for your review as well http://concordance.biblos.com/ide_te.htm


The original word used at Mt 24:15 and Mk 13:14 is the greek word ἴδητε (idēte) which is used 12 times in the bible. It&#39;s meaning is :be aware, behold, consider, perceive

I am listing the 12 times it is used below with the greek and the word bolded in each for you to see(not perceive :) Matthew 13:14 καὶ ἀναπληροῦται αὐτοῖς ἡ προφητεία Ἠσαΐου ἡ λέγουσα· ἀκοῇ ἀκούσετε καὶ οὐ μὴ συνῆτε, καὶ βλέποντες βλέψετε καὶ οὐ μὴ ἴδητε.
In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says, &#39;By hearing you will hear, and will in no way understand; Seeing you will see, and will in no way perceive:
</div>

Matthew 23:39 λέγω γὰρ ὑμῖν, οὐ μή με ἴδητε ἀπ&#39; ἄρτι ἕως ἂν εἴπητε· εὐλογημένος ὁ ἐρχόμενος ἐν ὀνόματι κυρίου.
For I tell you, you will not see me from now on, until you say, &#39;Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!&#39;"


Matthew 24:15 ὅταν οὖν ἴδητε τὸ βδέλυγμα τῆς ἐρημώσεως τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Δανιὴλ τοῦ προφήτου ἑστὸς ἐν τόπῳ ἁγίῳ ὁ ἀναγινώσκων νοείτω,
"When, therefore, you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),


Matthew 24:33 οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς ὅταν ἴδητε πάντα ταῦτα, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγύς ἐστιν ἐπὶ θύραις.
Even so you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.


Mark 13:14 ὅταν δὲ ἴδητε τὸ βδέλυγμα τῆς ἐρημώσεως ἑστηκότα ὅπου οὐ δεῖ, ὁ ἀναγινώσκων νοείτω, τότε οἱ ἐν τῇ Ἰουδαίᾳ φευγέτωσαν εἰς τὰ ὄρη,
But when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains,


Mark 13:29 οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς ὅταν ἴδητε ταῦτα γινόμενα, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγύς ἐστιν ἐπὶ θύραις.
even so you also, when you see these things coming to pass, know that it is near, at the doors.


Luke 12:54 ἔλεγεν δὲ καὶ τοῖς ὄχλοις· ὅταν ἴδητε [τὴν] νεφέλην ἀνατέλλουσαν ἐπὶ δυσμῶν, εὐθέως λέγετε ὅτι ὄμβρος ἔρχεται, καὶ γίνεται οὕτως·
He said to the multitudes also, "When you see a cloud rising from the west, immediately you say, &#39;A shower is coming,&#39; and so it happens.


Luke 13:35 ἰδοὺ ἀφίεται ὑμῖν ὁ οἶκος ὑμῶν. λέγω δὲ ὑμῖν. οὐ μὴ ἴδητέ με ἕως [ἥξει ὅτε] εἴπητε· εὐλογημένος ὁ ἐρχόμενος ἐν ὀνόματι κυρίου.
Behold, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me, until you say, &#39;Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!&#39;"


Luke 21:20 ὅταν δὲ ἴδητε κυκλουμένην ὑπὸ στρατοπέδων Ἰερουσαλήμ, τότε γνῶτε ὅτι ἤγγικεν ἡ ἐρήμωσις αὐτῆς.
"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is at hand.


Luke 21:31 οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς, ὅταν ἴδητε ταῦτα γινόμενα, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγύς ἐστιν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ.
Even so you also, when you see these things happening, know that the Kingdom of God is near.


John 4:48 εἶπεν οὖν ὁ Ἰησοῦς πρὸς αὐτόν ἐὰν μὴ σημεῖα καὶ τέρατα ἴδητε οὐ μὴ πιστεύσητε.
Jesus therefore said to him, "Unless you see signs and wonders, you will in no way believe."
Acts 28:26 λέγων· πορεύθητι πρὸς τὸν λαὸν τοῦτον καὶ εἰπόν· ἀκοῇ ἀκούσετε καὶ οὐ μὴ συνῆτε καὶ βλέποντες βλέψετε καὶ οὐ μὴ ἴδητε·
saying, &#39;Go to this people, and say, in hearing, you will hear, but will in no way understand. In seeing, you will see, but will in no way perceive.


My point or rather my question is:
If

[sir_chan]

<div align="center">
At Mat 24:15 Jesus tells us the when we "catch sight" of the disgusting thing that we are to flee to the mountains. We understand that this has future application but when and in what way would we "catch sight" I haven&#39;t been able to see much talk about on here although i&#39;m sure it&#39;s been mentioned quite a few times. I am adding to this older post to see if I can add anything to it. Here is what i found and would like to continute this post from a almost 2 years ago.

Most bibles translate the verse with the word "see" instead of "catch sight". Which gives the reader the idea that it would something seen as with the eye. However the NWT has translated it as "catch sight" which implies that it may not be directly seen but more or less observed. The website www.biblos.com (http://www.biblos.com) has excellent research facilities within it to find out the ORIGINAL meanings of the words used in the text. Here is the link to the page for your review as well http://concordance.biblos.com/ide_te.htm


The original word used at Mt 24:15 and Mk 13:14 is the greek word ἴδητε (idēte) which is used 12 times in the bible. It&#39;s meaning is :be aware, behold, consider, perceive

I am listing the 12 times it is used below with the greek and the word bolded in each for you to see(not perceive :) Matthew 13:14 καὶ ἀναπληροῦται αὐτοῖς ἡ προφητεία Ἠσαΐου ἡ λέγουσα· ἀκοῇ ἀκούσετε καὶ οὐ μὴ συνῆτε, καὶ βλέποντες βλέψετε καὶ οὐ μὴ ἴδητε.
In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says, &#39;By hearing you will hear, and will in no way understand; Seeing you will see, and will in no way perceive:
</div>

Matthew 23:39 λέγω γὰρ ὑμῖν, οὐ μή με ἴδητε ἀπ&#39; ἄρτι ἕως ἂν εἴπητε· εὐλογημένος ὁ ἐρχόμενος ἐν ὀνόματι κυρίου.
For I tell you, you will not see me from now on, until you say, &#39;Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!&#39;"


Matthew 24:15 ὅταν οὖν ἴδητε τὸ βδέλυγμα τῆς ἐρημώσεως τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Δανιὴλ τοῦ προφήτου ἑστὸς ἐν τόπῳ ἁγίῳ ὁ ἀναγινώσκων νοείτω,
"When, therefore, you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),


Matthew 24:33 οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς ὅταν ἴδητε πάντα ταῦτα, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγύς ἐστιν ἐπὶ θύραις.
Even so you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.


Mark 13:14 ὅταν δὲ ἴδητε τὸ βδέλυγμα τῆς ἐρημώσεως ἑστηκότα ὅπου οὐ δεῖ, ὁ ἀναγινώσκων νοείτω, τότε οἱ ἐν τῇ Ἰουδαίᾳ φευγέτωσαν εἰς τὰ ὄρη,
But when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains,


Mark 13:29 οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς ὅταν ἴδητε ταῦτα γινόμενα, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγύς ἐστιν ἐπὶ θύραις.
even so you also, when you see these things coming to pass, know that it is near, at the doors.


Luke 12:54 ἔλεγεν δὲ καὶ τοῖς ὄχλοις· ὅταν ἴδητε [τὴν] νεφέλην ἀνατέλλουσαν ἐπὶ δυσμῶν, εὐθέως λέγετε ὅτι ὄμβρος ἔρχεται, καὶ γίνεται οὕτως·
He said to the multitudes also, "When you see a cloud rising from the west, immediately you say, &#39;A shower is coming,&#39; and so it happens.


Luke 13:35 ἰδοὺ ἀφίεται ὑμῖν ὁ οἶκος ὑμῶν. λέγω δὲ ὑμῖν. οὐ μὴ ἴδητέ με ἕως [ἥξει ὅτε] εἴπητε· εὐλογημένος ὁ ἐρχόμενος ἐν ὀνόματι κυρίου.
Behold, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me, until you say, &#39;Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!&#39;"


Luke 21:20 ὅταν δὲ ἴδητε κυκλουμένην ὑπὸ στρατοπέδων Ἰερουσαλήμ, τότε γνῶτε ὅτι ἤγγικεν ἡ ἐρήμωσις αὐτῆς.
"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is at hand.


Luke 21:31 οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς, ὅταν ἴδητε ταῦτα γινόμενα, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγύς ἐστιν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ.
Even so you also, when you see these things happening, know that the Kingdom of God is near.


John 4:48 εἶπεν οὖν ὁ Ἰησοῦς πρὸς αὐτόν ἐὰν μὴ σημεῖα καὶ τέρατα ἴδητε οὐ μὴ πιστεύσητε.
Jesus therefore said to him, "Unless you see signs and wonders, you will in no way believe."
Acts 28:26 λέγων· πορεύθητι πρὸς τὸν λαὸν τοῦτον καὶ εἰπόν· ἀκοῇ ἀκούσετε καὶ οὐ μὴ συνῆτε καὶ βλέποντες βλέψετε καὶ οὐ μὴ ἴδητε·
saying, &#39;Go to this people, and say, in hearing, you will hear, but will in no way understand. In seeing, you will see, but will in no way perceive.


My point or rather my question is:
If we

[sir_chan]

<div align="center">
At Mat 24:15 Jesus tells us the when we "catch sight" of the disgusting thing that we are to flee to the mountains. We understand that this has future application but when and in what way would we "catch sight" I haven&#39;t been able to see much talk about on here although i&#39;m sure it&#39;s been mentioned quite a few times. I am adding to this older post to see if I can add anything to it. Here is what i found and would like to continute this post from a almost 2 years ago.

Most bibles translate the verse with the word "see" instead of "catch sight". Which gives the reader the idea that it would something seen as with the eye. However the NWT has translated it as "catch sight" which implies that it may not be directly seen but more or less observed. The website www.biblos.com (http://www.biblos.com) has excellent research facilities within it to find out the ORIGINAL meanings of the words used in the text. Here is the link to the page for your review as well http://concordance.biblos.com/ide_te.htm


The original word used at Mt 24:15 and Mk 13:14 is the greek word ἴδητε (idēte) which is used 12 times in the bible. It&#39;s meaning is :be aware, behold, consider, perceive

I am listing the 12 times it is used below with the greek and the word bolded in each for you to see(not perceive :) Matthew 13:14 καὶ ἀναπληροῦται αὐτοῖς ἡ προφητεία Ἠσαΐου ἡ λέγουσα· ἀκοῇ ἀκούσετε καὶ οὐ μὴ συνῆτε, καὶ βλέποντες βλέψετε καὶ οὐ μὴ ἴδητε.
In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says, &#39;By hearing you will hear, and will in no way understand; Seeing you will see, and will in no way perceive:
</div>

Matthew 23:39 λέγω γὰρ ὑμῖν, οὐ μή με ἴδητε ἀπ&#39; ἄρτι ἕως ἂν εἴπητε· εὐλογημένος ὁ ἐρχόμενος ἐν ὀνόματι κυρίου.
For I tell you, you will not see me from now on, until you say, &#39;Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!&#39;"


Matthew 24:15 ὅταν οὖν ἴδητε τὸ βδέλυγμα τῆς ἐρημώσεως τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Δανιὴλ τοῦ προφήτου ἑστὸς ἐν τόπῳ ἁγίῳ ὁ ἀναγινώσκων νοείτω,
"When, therefore, you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),


Matthew 24:33 οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς ὅταν ἴδητε πάντα ταῦτα, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγύς ἐστιν ἐπὶ θύραις.
Even so you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.


Mark 13:14 ὅταν δὲ ἴδητε τὸ βδέλυγμα τῆς ἐρημώσεως ἑστηκότα ὅπου οὐ δεῖ, ὁ ἀναγινώσκων νοείτω, τότε οἱ ἐν τῇ Ἰουδαίᾳ φευγέτωσαν εἰς τὰ ὄρη,
But when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains,


Mark 13:29 οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς ὅταν ἴδητε ταῦτα γινόμενα, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγύς ἐστιν ἐπὶ θύραις.
even so you also, when you see these things coming to pass, know that it is near, at the doors.


Luke 12:54 ἔλεγεν δὲ καὶ τοῖς ὄχλοις· ὅταν ἴδητε [τὴν] νεφέλην ἀνατέλλουσαν ἐπὶ δυσμῶν, εὐθέως λέγετε ὅτι ὄμβρος ἔρχεται, καὶ γίνεται οὕτως·
He said to the multitudes also, "When you see a cloud rising from the west, immediately you say, &#39;A shower is coming,&#39; and so it happens.


Luke 13:35 ἰδοὺ ἀφίεται ὑμῖν ὁ οἶκος ὑμῶν. λέγω δὲ ὑμῖν. οὐ μὴ ἴδητέ με ἕως [ἥξει ὅτε] εἴπητε· εὐλογημένος ὁ ἐρχόμενος ἐν ὀνόματι κυρίου.
Behold, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me, until you say, &#39;Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!&#39;"


Luke 21:20 ὅταν δὲ ἴδητε κυκλουμένην ὑπὸ στρατοπέδων Ἰερουσαλήμ, τότε γνῶτε ὅτι ἤγγικεν ἡ ἐρήμωσις αὐτῆς.
"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is at hand.


Luke 21:31 οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς, ὅταν ἴδητε ταῦτα γινόμενα, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγύς ἐστιν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ.
Even so you also, when you see these things happening, know that the Kingdom of God is near.


John 4:48 εἶπεν οὖν ὁ Ἰησοῦς πρὸς αὐτόν ἐὰν μὴ σημεῖα καὶ τέρατα ἴδητε οὐ μὴ πιστεύσητε.
Jesus therefore said to him, "Unless you see signs and wonders, you will in no way believe."
Acts 28:26 λέγων· πορεύθητι πρὸς τὸν λαὸν τοῦτον καὶ εἰπόν· ἀκοῇ ἀκούσετε καὶ οὐ μὴ συνῆτε καὶ βλέποντες βλέψετε καὶ οὐ μὴ ἴδητε·
saying, &#39;Go to this people, and say, in hearing, you will hear, but will in no way understand. In seeing, you will see, but will in no way perceive.


My point or rather my question is:
If we are

[sir_chan]

<div align="center">
At Mat 24:15 Jesus tells us the when we "catch sight" of the disgusting thing that we are to flee to the mountains. We understand that this has future application but when and in what way would we "catch sight" I haven&#39;t been able to see much talk about on here although i&#39;m sure it&#39;s been mentioned quite a few times. I am adding to this older post to see if I can add anything to it. Here is what i found and would like to continute this post from a almost 2 years ago.
Most bibles translate the verse with the word "see" instead of "catch sight". Which gives the reader the idea that it would something seen as with the eye. However the NWT has translated it as "catch sight" which implies that it may not be directly seen but more or less observed. The website www.biblos.com (http://www.biblos.com) has excellent research facilities within it to find out the ORIGINAL meanings of the words used in the text. Here is the link to the page for your review as well http://concordance.biblos.com/ide_te.htm


The original word used at Mt 24:15 and Mk 13:14 is the greek word ἴδητε (idēte) which is used 12 times in the bible. It&#39;s meaning is :be aware, behold, consider, perceive
I am listing the 12 times it is used below with the greek and the word bolded in each for you to see(not perceive :)

Matthew 13:14 καὶ ἀναπληροῦται αὐτοῖς ἡ προφητεία Ἠσαΐου ἡ λέγουσα· ἀκοῇ ἀκούσετε καὶ οὐ μὴ συνῆτε, καὶ βλέποντες βλέψετε καὶ οὐ μὴ ἴδητε.
In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says, &#39;By hearing you will hear, and will in no way understand; Seeing you will see, and will in no way perceive:

Matthew 23:39 λέγω γὰρ ὑμῖν, οὐ μή με ἴδητε ἀπ&#39; ἄρτι ἕως ἂν εἴπητε· εὐλογημένος ὁ ἐρχόμενος ἐν ὀνόματι κυρίου.
For I tell you, you will not see me from now on, until you say, &#39;Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!&#39;"

Matthew 24:15 ὅταν οὖν ἴδητε τὸ βδέλυγμα τῆς ἐρημώσεως τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Δανιὴλ τοῦ προφήτου ἑστὸς ἐν τόπῳ ἁγίῳ ὁ ἀναγινώσκων νοείτω,
"When, therefore, you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),

Matthew 24:33 οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς ὅταν ἴδητε πάντα ταῦτα, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγύς ἐστιν ἐπὶ θύραις.
Even so you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Mark 13:14 ὅταν δὲ ἴδητε τὸ βδέλυγμα τῆς ἐρημώσεως ἑστηκότα ὅπου οὐ δεῖ, ὁ ἀναγινώσκων νοείτω, τότε οἱ ἐν τῇ Ἰουδαίᾳ φευγέτωσαν εἰς τὰ ὄρη,
But when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains,

Mark 13:29 οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς ὅταν ἴδητε ταῦτα γινόμενα, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγύς ἐστιν ἐπὶ θύραις.
even so you also, when you see these things coming to pass, know that it is near, at the doors.

Luke 12:54 ἔλεγεν δὲ καὶ τοῖς ὄχλοις· ὅταν ἴδητε [τὴν] νεφέλην ἀνατέλλουσαν ἐπὶ δυσμῶν, εὐθέως λέγετε ὅτι ὄμβρος ἔρχεται, καὶ γίνεται οὕτως·
He said to the multitudes also, "When you see a cloud rising from the west, immediately you say, &#39;A shower is coming,&#39; and so it happens.

Luke 13:35 ἰδοὺ ἀφίεται ὑμῖν ὁ οἶκος ὑμῶν. λέγω δὲ ὑμῖν. οὐ μὴ ἴδητέ με ἕως [ἥξει ὅτε] εἴπητε· εὐλογημένος ὁ ἐρχόμενος ἐν ὀνόματι κυρίου.
Behold, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me, until you say, &#39;Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!&#39;"

Luke 21:20 ὅταν δὲ ἴδητε κυκλουμένην ὑπὸ στρατοπέδων Ἰερουσαλήμ, τότε γνῶτε ὅτι ἤγγικεν ἡ ἐρήμωσις αὐτῆς.
"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is at hand.

Luke 21:31 οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς, ὅταν ἴδητε ταῦτα γινόμενα, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγύς ἐστιν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ.
Even so you also, when you see these things happening, know that the Kingdom of God is near.

John 4:48 εἶπεν οὖν ὁ Ἰησοῦς πρὸς αὐτόν ἐὰν μὴ σημεῖα καὶ τέρατα ἴδητε οὐ μὴ πιστεύσητε.
Jesus therefore said to him, "Unless you see signs and wonders, you will in no way believe."
Acts 28:26 λέγων· πορεύθητι πρὸς τὸν λαὸν τοῦτον καὶ εἰπόν· ἀκοῇ ἀκούσετε καὶ οὐ μὴ συνῆτε καὶ βλέποντες βλέψετε καὶ οὐ μὴ ἴδητε·
saying, &#39;Go to this people, and say, in hearing, you will hear, but will in no way understand. In seeing, you will see, but will in no way perceive.

My point or rather my question is:
If we are to "catch sight" of or rather perceive the disgusting thing, perhaps it isn&#39;t something that will be as noticable to "see" it. Much like it was mentioned above in the post by littleone. Could all the perceptions from us here on the board BE the "catching sight" of the disgusting thing. If there are FALSE annointed ones just as we know that Jesus says their will be, and we don&#39;t actually "see" them but are perceiving them, are we not actually catching sight of the Disgusting Thing that causes desolation? And if so are we not supposed to flee to the mountains? </div>

[sir_chan]

At Daniel 8:23 we read:
"In the latter period of their rule,
When the transgressors have run their course,
A king will arise,
Insolent and skilled in intrigue.
24 "His power will be mighty, but not by his own power,
And he will destroy to an extraordinary degree
And prosper and perform his will;
He will destroy mighty men and the holy people.

In the above scripture by Daniel we see that the transgressors (read the post by littleone above) may infact also be the disgusting thing as spoken of in Matthew and Mark. Here in Daniel we see that the transgressors have run their course or come to their completion and THEN the king(8th) will rise. So if this is the case then the disgusting thing comes BEFORE the King of Fierce Countenance and the time to flee would most certainly be now.

[diamondiiz]

Good question which I also pondered about. In 67CE Romans came up to the wall of the temple and retreated so if it does occur, it should be in a very similar manner where those paying attention will notice the event and will act before the "enemy" returns to complete their work or Jehovah&#39;s work as it was Jehovah&#39;s executing judgment in 70CE. I would imagine there will be something of importance that will occur and we&#39;ll know it when we see it. Would it be something to do with Watchtower? Possibly. They claim to represent God, claim to be run by anointed and yet there is a history of shady things occurring from the start. Lots of good things and yet some odd ideas are still around and they still do things without making themselves transparent. Just like Jerusalem which was supposed to be clean and representing Jehovah and yet was polluted by doctrines of men. Had an appearance of godliness but was rejected by God. If it does have anything to do with the society it will be big and everyone will see it and wonder. If not then your guess is as good as mine ;)






<div align="center">
At Mat 24:15 Jesus tells us the when we "catch sight" of the disgusting thing that we are to flee to the mountains. We understand that this has future application but when and in what way would we "catch sight" I haven&#39;t been able to see much talk about on here although i&#39;m sure it&#39;s been mentioned quite a few times. I am adding to this older post to see if I can add anything to it. Here is what i found and would like to continute this post from a almost 2 years ago.

Most bibles translate the verse with the word "see" instead of "catch sight". Which gives the reader the idea that it would something seen as with the eye. However the NWT has translated it as "catch sight" which implies that it may not be directly seen but more or less observed. The website www.biblos.com (http://www.biblos.com) has excellent research facilities within it to find out the ORIGINAL meanings of the words used in the text. Here is the link to the page for your review as well http://concordance.biblos.com/ide_te.htm


The original word used at Mt 24:15 and Mk 13:14 is the greek word ἴδητε (idēte) which is used 12 times in the bible. It&#39;s meaning is :be aware, behold, consider, perceive

I am listing the 12 times it is used below with the greek and the word bolded in each for you to see(not perceive :) Matthew 13:14 καὶ ἀναπληροῦται αὐτοῖς ἡ προφητεία Ἠσαΐου ἡ λέγουσα· ἀκοῇ ἀκούσετε καὶ οὐ μὴ συνῆτε, καὶ βλέποντες βλέψετε καὶ οὐ μὴ ἴδητε.
In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says, &#39;By hearing you will hear, and will in no way understand; Seeing you will see, and will in no way perceive:


Matthew 23:39 λέγω γὰρ ὑμῖν, οὐ μή με ἴδητε ἀπ&#39; ἄρτι ἕως ἂν εἴπητε· εὐλογημένος ὁ ἐρχόμενος ἐν ὀνόματι κυρίου.
For I tell you, you will not see me from now on, until you say, &#39;Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!&#39;"


Matthew 24:15 ὅταν οὖν ἴδητε τὸ βδέλυγμα τῆς ἐρημώσεως τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Δανιὴλ τοῦ προφήτου ἑστὸς ἐν τόπῳ ἁγίῳ ὁ ἀναγινώσκων νοείτω,
"When, therefore, you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),


Matthew 24:33 οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς ὅταν ἴδητε πάντα ταῦτα, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγύς ἐστιν ἐπὶ θύραις.
Even so you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.


Mark 13:14 ὅταν δὲ ἴδητε τὸ βδέλυγμα τῆς ἐρημώσεως ἑστηκότα ὅπου οὐ δεῖ, ὁ ἀναγινώσκων νοείτω, τότε οἱ ἐν τῇ Ἰουδαίᾳ φευγέτωσαν εἰς τὰ ὄρη,
But when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains,


Mark 13:29 οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς ὅταν ἴδητε ταῦτα γινόμενα, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγύς ἐστιν ἐπὶ θύραις.
even so you also, when you see these things coming to pass, know that it is near, at the doors.


Luke 12:54 ἔλεγεν δὲ καὶ τοῖς ὄχλοις· ὅταν ἴδητε [τὴν] νεφέλην ἀνατέλλουσαν ἐπὶ δυσμῶν, εὐθέως λέγετε ὅτι ὄμβρος ἔρχεται, καὶ γίνεται οὕτως·
He said to the multitudes also, "When you see a cloud rising from the west, immediately you say, &#39;A shower is coming,&#39; and so it happens.


Luke 13:35 ἰδοὺ ἀφίεται ὑμῖν ὁ οἶκος ὑμῶν. λέγω δὲ ὑμῖν. οὐ μὴ ἴδητέ με ἕως [ἥξει ὅτε] εἴπητε· εὐλογημένος ὁ ἐρχόμενος ἐν ὀνόματι κυρίου.
Behold, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me, until you say, &#39;Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!&#39;"


Luke 21:20 ὅταν δὲ ἴδητε κυκλουμένην ὑπὸ στρατοπέδων Ἰερουσαλήμ, τότε γνῶτε ὅτι ἤγγικεν ἡ ἐρήμωσις αὐτῆς.
"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is at hand.


Luke 21:31 οὕτως καὶ ὑμεῖς, ὅταν ἴδητε ταῦτα γινόμενα, γινώσκετε ὅτι ἐγγύς ἐστιν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ.
Even so you also, when you see these things happening, know that the Kingdom of God is near.


John 4:48 εἶπεν οὖν ὁ Ἰησοῦς πρὸς αὐτόν ἐὰν μὴ σημεῖα καὶ τέρατα ἴδητε οὐ μὴ πιστεύσητε.
Jesus therefore said to him, "Unless you see signs and wonders, you will in no way believe."
Acts 28:26 λέγων· πορεύθητι πρὸς τὸν λαὸν τοῦτον καὶ εἰπόν· ἀκοῇ ἀκούσετε καὶ οὐ μὴ συνῆτε καὶ βλέποντες βλέψετε καὶ οὐ μὴ ἴδητε·
saying, &#39;Go to this people, and say, in hearing, you will hear, but will in no way understand. In seeing, you will see, but will in no way perceive.


My point or rather my question is:
If we are to "catch sight"[/b][/quote]

[sir_chan]

Yes, it does make more sense i suppose to think that there must be more of a parallel to the original occurence of the Romans coming to Jerusalem and then leaving. I am still wondering about the timing however, since the post
http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/inde...post&p=6420 (http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=121&view=findpost&p=6420)
by littleone above is quite interesting in it&#39;s reasoning. What are your thoughts or anybodys on the transgressors in daniel being the same as the disgusting thing that causes desolation. Are they the same? And if so, then the "catching sight" of the disgusting thing, must come BEFORE the King of Fierce Count. comes into the scene as described in Daniel 8.

[FutureMan]

Yes, it does make more sense i suppose to think that there must be more of a parallel to the original occurence of the Romans coming to Jerusalem and then leaving. I am still wondering about the timing however, since the post
http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/inde...post&p=6420 (http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/index.php?s=&showtopic=121&view=findpost&p=6420)
by littleone above is quite interesting in it&#39;s reasoning. What are your thoughts or anybodys on the transgressors in daniel being the same as the disgusting thing that causes desolation. Are they the same? And if so, then the "catching sight" of the disgusting thing, must come BEFORE the King of Fierce Count. comes into the scene as described in Daniel 8.[/b]

Hello all.
Here is my thought on the matter and I&#39;m going out on a limb here.
The Roman Empire and its&#39;s army literally controlled the known world in those times of the early christians.

The disgusting thing that was causing desolation not only physically by it&#39;s army, but also spiritually, as it corrupted the members of it&#39;s empire with it&#39;s religions and idealogy. And as we know that latter on it known as The Holy Roman Empire, truly corrupted the christian church as well.

Today we need to look for the same pattern and the same influence that the Roman Empire had in the known world back then.

It will be controlling as well as desolating, and who are transgressors and they either are, or will be causing transgression in the near future.

This is my thought on the matter.
From FutureMan

[littleone]

My point or rather my question is:
If we are to "catch sight" of or rather perceive the disgusting thing, perhaps it isn&#39;t something that will be as noticable to "see" it. Much like it was mentioned above in the post by littleone. Could all the perceptions from us here on the board BE the "catching sight" of the disgusting thing. If there are FALSE annointed ones just as we know that Jesus says their will be, and we don&#39;t actually "see" them but are perceiving them, are we not actually catching sight of the Disgusting Thing that causes desolation? And if so are we not supposed to flee to the mountains?[/b]I guess it all comes down to one&#39;s perspective or point of view. But what we should be asking is "what is an abomination in Jehovah&#39;s eye&#39;s ?", rather than "what is an abomination in unfaithful Jerusalem&#39;s eyes?".

We always look into Josephus&#39; account of what happened in Jerusalem 66 - 70 CE. Yet, many books of the bible were written after these events, but not ONE mentions the demise of Jerusalem at that period of time as being in fulfillment of Jesus&#39; words. This should be a cause for concern for us. Rather, it seems that the divine author left that account out of the bible for a reason.

Let&#39;s now consider who Josephus was. Was he a Christian? No. Rather, he was part of the unfaithful Jewish system of things. As a matter of fact, he was a commander of the religious Jewish zealots who were fighting the Romans. From his point of view, the Roman armies were indeed a "disgusting thing". Yet, the bible tells us that the Roman armies were used as Jehovah&#39;s hands of justice against an unfaithful Jewish nation. For Jesus own words tell us:


"And when he got nearby, he viewed the city and wept over it, saying: "If you, even you, had discerned in this day the things having to do with peace—but now they have been hid from your eyes. Because the days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification with pointed stakes and will encircle you and distress you from every side, and they will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected." - Luke 19:41-44[/b]The Roman armies proved to be a just retribution to the unfaithful nation for rejecting Jesus Christ. Can we possibly say that they were a "disgusting thing" in Jehovah&#39;s eyes?

What really was Jehovah&#39;s temple in 66 - 70 CE? Was it the temple that stood in Jerusalem? Or was it something else by that time? Let&#39;s see what Paul wrote about 12 years earlier in 53-57CE:


"And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I shall reside among them and walk among [them], and I shall be their God, and they will be my people.” - 2 Cor 6:16[/b]By 66 - 70 CE Jehovah had indeed a NEW TEMPLE, which was now considered the "spiritual temple". No longer would the temple in Jerusalem be considered the "holy place". For Jesus himself declared:
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,—how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But YOU people did not want it. Look! YOUR house is abandoned to YOU. For I say to YOU, YOU will by no means see me from henceforth until YOU say, &#39;Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah&#39;s name! - Matthew 23:37-39[/b]


You mention and research the word ἴδητε (idēte) which means to: be aware, behold, consider, perceive I am glad that you pointed out that it is not merely seeing with the eyes... for if such were the case, it would not mean that we would have to use much discernment at all. Rather, we would just merely have to have a quaint knowledge of the prophesy, and then act when we seen such thing with our eyes. Also, when the Roman armies left Jerusalem after their first campaign of surrounding Jerusalem in 66CE, what was the rush for leaving the city? They only came back in a couple of years. This does not sound like the urgent words that Jesus mentions for fleeing to the mountains, does it? As a matter of fact, a person could plan his departure taking a few months to leave the city. So this does not fit Jesus&#39; urgent message that says:
then let those in Ju·de´a begin fleeing to the mountains. Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house; 18 and let the man in the field not return to the house to pick up his outer garment. 19 Woe to the pregnant women and those suckling a baby in those days! 20 Keep praying that YOUR flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the sabbath day; 21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.[/b]According to Josephus&#39; account, the "man on the housetop" could have taken a couple of years to gather up all his belongings and get out... he had plenty of time. Yet, according to Jesus&#39; words, it would be a matter of urgency... so urgent that he should neither go down to take any goods out of his house.

My whole contention in this matter is that Jesus is NOT talking about a physical sign... rather he is talking about a SPIRITUAL sign. This is why only those that have spiritual discernment will be the ones to "see" or "perceive" the sign.

Now let&#39;s consider Daniel&#39;s words on the matter:


And he will actually go back and hurl denunciations against the holy covenant and act effectively; and he will have to go back and will give consideration to those leaving the holy covenant. And there will be arms that will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will actually profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant [feature].

“And they will certainly put in place the disgusting thing that is causing desolation.

32 “And those who are acting wickedly against [the] covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words. But as regards the people who are knowing their God, they will prevail and act effectively. 33 And as regards those having insight among the people, they will impart understanding to the many. And they will certainly be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for [some] days. 34 But when they are made to stumble they will be helped with a little help; and many will certainly join themselves to them by means of smoothness. 35 And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and to do a whitening, until the time of [the] end; because it is yet for the time appointed." - Daniel 11: 31-35[/b]Who is the "they" and "those" being spoken about? Was it the Roman armies? Did the Roman armies lead anyone to act wickedly against a covenant? Did they lead anyone into apostasy with "smooth words"? Also, what "covenant" did the Roman armies act wicked against? Hmmm... they weren&#39;t under a covenant... but then again, neither was the king of the north or south. Yet the scripture does say that "he will actually go back and hurl denunciations against the holy covenant and act effectively; and he will have to go back and will give consideration to those leaving the holy covenant"

Also, it mentions those who "act effectively" and "impart understanding to the many". What act do you think these ones do? What kind of understanding do you think they impart?

Perhaps Jesus&#39; words at Matthew 24:15 which says: “Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) has a lot more bang for the buck then we have given credit for.

[littleone]

I would now like to re-present a post that I had written a year or so ago. It is about Transgression. Daniel also talks about the "transgression that causes desolation", and "those who act wickedly against the covenant". Please refer to the last 3 paragraphs in specific of this long winded post, and ask yourself if doing such thing would be a "disgusting thing" in Jehovah&#39;s eye&#39;s? Also ask yourself if such thing applies in our day?

Here is the original post:

http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/inde...p?showtopic=561 (http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=561)

[FutureMan]

I would now like to re-present a post that I had written a year or so ago. It is about Transgression. Daniel also talks about the "transgression that causes desolation", and "those who act wickedly against the covenant". Please refer to the last 3 paragraphs in specific of this long winded post, and ask yourself if doing such thing would be a "disgusting thing" in Jehovah&#39;s eye&#39;s? Also ask yourself if such thing applies in our day?

Here is the original post:

http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/inde...p?showtopic=561 (http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=561)[/b]

A welcome back to you also from me littleone, and I read your post and found it to be very thought provoking :Yahoo_33:

Obviously there needs to be a lot more research in this area of the new covenant so that we can get the right understanding.

It&#39;s imperative that we do!

Our relationship with Jehovah God and his glorified son Jesus Christ, depends on us having the proper understanding of the new covenant.

[b]From FutureMan.

[littleone]

Thanks for the welcome Futureman. :)

Of interest to note, whenever the Bible gives us ANY prophecy, it is always in direct correlation between the event that occurs, and Jesus Christ, or the members of the vine of Christ. For instance, the book of Daniel speaks about various Kings and Kingdoms. But they all have a direct correlation or relationship to events that happen with Jesus Christ and his anointed. After all, Revelation 19:10 tells us:

"...for the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying" - Revelation 19:10

Therefore, all the events that are mentioned in Daniel, including the events recorded about the Kings of the North and South, and the various kingdoms and kings, must have a direct correlation to the effects on Jesus Christ and his brothers... the vine of Christ.

Something that was always of interest to me is what the brothers in CT Russell&#39;s day figured was happening. Sure, they were wrong about many events, including 1914, etc. But one thing they felt was that they were somehow coming out of Babylonian captivity, and they wrote about it often. One thing that most of us will agree about, is that SOMETHING did happen back then. But what?

Before the days of the Bible Students, it appears that the anointed were scattered about in the various sects of Christendom. As a matter of fact, it seems this was the case since the early first century CE. Once the original congregations apostatized, we will all admit that Jehovah did still have his anointed remnant on earth... yet they seemed to be scattered about, here and there throughout Christendom. The Bible students believed that they were being released from spiritual captivity, and allowed to congregate and restart building the spiritual temple. This they attributed to the "greater Cyrus, Jesus Christ". It seemed as though a different kingdom was put in place. It seemed as though the spiritual Euphrates river had dried up, and the influence that Christendom had once held had vanished. To the anointed Bible Students at that time, it seemed to them as if a new arrangement had taken place. Yet, if such a thing did take place, then it wasn&#39;t something physical at all. Rather, it would have taken place in the spiritual realm, and would not have been visible to a secular historian scholar at all. Would it?

Yet, most of us would agree that "something" happened back then. But what? We know that Jehovah&#39;s Kingdom was not truly established in 1914. We also know that Christ&#39;s presence did not start then. But most here would agree that "something" did happen. If not, then we would have to also agree that Jehovah&#39;s true anointed would still be scattered about in Christendom. Yet, none of us believe that... do we?

Yet, when we consider the things that either did happen, or did not happen, we&#39;re not examining them in a secular context at all, are we? If so, then what we would say is that WWI started... and that was it. Everything else remained the same. Yet, based on our own beliefs that Jehovah&#39;s anointed are not all still scattered in Christendom, then we would have to admit that "something" happened in a spiritual context... and not in a physical context at all. Yet, also, if we are to agree that something happened in a "spiritual context", then we must also agree that it had manifestations in the physical realms.... yet could not be understood by peering at that which is physical at all... but only understood by the spirit.

What we perceive to know from the physical is this: Since the period of the Bible Students, Jehovah&#39;s anointed are no longer found within the realms of Christendom. Rather, now they are found within the realms of Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses, and those associated with Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses. Other than this, we have little or no other further evidence that anything has happened... as we have already proved from scripture that Jehovah&#39;s kingdom and Christ&#39;s Presence did NOT start in 1914.

So what do we have then by peering at that which is physical? A conundrum.

Yet, if we examine that which is spiritual, we then come to realize that since the first century CE, that Jehovah&#39;s anointed were indeed in spiritual captivity. Yet, it seems that since the early Bible Student days that this captivity was lifted in a sense. They came under a new spiritual arrangement. No longer would Jehovah&#39;s anointed be found scattered about in Christendom. Rather, it seems that they congregated, and came under a new spiritual arrangement. Therefore, we can find some merit in the Bible Student&#39;s claim that they did indeed come out of a spiritual Babylonian captivity. Yet, if we examine the scriptures, we see that the arrangement that the fleshly Israelites came under after their physical Babylonian captivity was that of the Persian/Mede empire. So what then about the spiritual?

My point in all of this is to point out that if there was a "spiritual Babylonian Captivity", then there had to be a spiritual Babylon, and not physical at all. Likewise, there would be a spiritual Persia, Greece, etc. Likewise, we could not peer and gaze at the spiritual Babylon or its Kings with our physical eyes at all. But would only discern that it existed by spirit. Likewise, when regarding the writings of scripture, and Daniel in particular, we should realize and understand that these things are "spiritual prophetic dramas" that had already taken place in the physical realm, but now point us to that which is now in the spiritual realm.

The book of Esther, Nehemiah, Ezra, parts of Daniel, etc talks about what happened in the physical Persian Empire. Yet, we should all realize that if it has a fulfillment in Christ, then its fulfillment in Christ will be that within the spiritual realm, and perhaps we would not be able to discern it with our physical eyes at all... yet, it would certainly have its physical manifestations.