Pictoral Memorial

[Jinnvisible]

This is a link to the short featured on ew-tv. Aprox three weeks now untill the memorial celebration.<a href="http://e-watchman.tv/memorial-480px.html" target="_blank">
</a>
http://e-watchman.tv/memorial-480px.html

[James]

Thanks Jinnvisible for the reminder.

Thanks Watchman for the video and btw, I still think the music is apropos.
(If I recall, there was a lively debate over it last year)

I would also like to link the watchtower&#39;s nicely done article on Jesus&#39; last days.

Reliving Jesus&#39; Last Days on Earth (http://www.watchtower.org/e/19980315/article_01.htm)



agape,
James

[watchman]

Thanks Watchman for the video and btw, I still think the music is apropos.
(If I recall, there was a lively debate over it last year)[/b]

Just so you know, the Memorial video was not the one with the offending music. It was a video I did on the personal name of God that I used Gregorian music, which offended some of our former Catholic friends. I pulled that video off You Tube. However, I have managed to sneak a 4 second clip of the offending Gregorian chant into a video I am presently working on. :icon_neutral:

[billy]

Thank you Watchman for creating the video - i found the music very moving and i found my self crying - I find african music very moving and the music makes me think of the african suffering going on and how Jesus Kingdom will bring so much relief to all those suffering on this planet - i would like to see you add to the video with Christ&#39;s ressurection and healing of the planet

[Deborah]

Thank you watchman for all your time and effort. Your talent and artistry of sharing your love for Jehovah and Jesus is valued by us. You do like to create in various mediums! Thank you, again.

Thank you, Jinn, for posting the thread. Your so thoughtful.

Love, Deborah

[Molly]

Watchman-

Your Pictorial Memorial was beautiful and quite touching. Since Billy said it first, I must also acknowledge that I too was misty-eyed by the significance of the photo series.

Thank you for all you time and efforts in this area.

Molly

[Steadfast]

Robert, you said: &#39;I have managed to sneak a 4 second clip of the offending Gregorian chant into a video I am presently working on.&#39;

Why stop at 4 seconds? A little leaven ferments the whole lump. :38786-6:

[stayawake]

[quote]


Dear Robert
Just remember you are the one that posted this on the board,
thats the only reason my post here is also public.

" You know", you really did not manage to sneak a 4 second clip of the offending Gregorian chant into a vidio you are working on.
Jah seen to it that we would all know about it.

Jahs hand is not short !
Thank you for your honesty.
It&#39;s meant a lot to me.
Thats why I am only speaking for myself.
stayawake

[Deborah]

Wow, sisters....I don&#39;t know what to say. I didn&#39;t look up gregorian until after this post.
Maybe there is more to understand than the first layer.
Either way, you both are coming on very strong. I would think that you could have brought your point about with a milder approach. Other than that, I missed you both lately.

With love, Deborah

[watchman]

Ladies, ladies! You might want to first see the video before you call fire down out of heaven. LOL

[Nightflyer]

I love this video, very touching. Music is great as well, though it reminds me a bit of Lion king... Why doens&#39;t society ever use this kind of music instead of all the violin garbage?

[Steadfast]

Dear Friends,

Quote from a Gregorian chant website:

http://www.music-for-church-choirs.com/gregorian-chant.html

&#39;The history of Gregorian Chant begins before the birth of Christ. Chant is based upon the songs sung in the synagogues and Middle Eastern countries. It&#39;s fascinating to know that some of today&#39;s chants are based upon the actual songs which Jesus sang when he was living in Jerusalem.&#39;

My comment: I question the above statement in italics based on my further comments below. Continuing with the quote:

&#39;Gregorian Chant was adopted by the Christian Church in about the 6th century and it quickly became an essential part of Christian worship. It was named after Pope Gregory the Great who unified all the chants into one collection. This soon became an essential part of monastic worship and monks would write new chants and take them from monastery to monastery.&#39;

My comment from extensive research on the subject:

In middle eastern countries, after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70, not all the synagogues and early churches worshipped Jehovah. Many of them were Samaritian, which means they practiced a form of Babylonian worship under the guise of the name Jehovah. This is exactly what Simon Magus did as a Babylonian priest living in Samaria. This is why the Magus information is so important to understand how the pagan worship was introduced into early Christianity. Magus, as a Babylonian magic-practicing priest, saw the power of the holy spirit by Peter and wanted it - Acts 8. History shows that he lied about his conversion to Chrsitianity. Magus was the founder of Babylonian-sourced gnosticism which eventually morphed into the Roman Catholic church by 325.

One other point is that after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70, Jews were forbidden to live in Israel. Samaritians and other pagans moved into the land. Archeologists who excavated this time period have found curious pagan symbology in synagogues they found.

Any Pope who takes charge of anything already knows he&#39;s worshipping Satan. Anything they do has a Satanic purpose. People can sing the most beautiful music using God&#39;s name and the name of Christ and not realize it has been dedicated to Satan and it is Satan&#39;s praises they are singing.

Link to information about Simon Magus:

http://www.historicist.com/articles/simon_magus.htm

Love,

Steadfast

[Steadfast]

&#39;It&#39;s silly to point to Gregorian chant as something to avoid because of its origins or ties to demonic influences and false worship.&#39;

Is it silly? If a person deliberately chooses religious music based on Satanic influence, how would Jehovah view it?

What did Jesus say?

John 4:23 &#39;But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to worship Him.&#39;

He also said:

Matthew 15:8 &#39;This people draws near to Me with their mouth, and honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.&#39;

I wonder if Jesus Christ would have sung Gregorian chants?

Love,

Steadfast

[Bertha]

<div class='quotemain'>Thanks Watchman for the video and btw, I still think the music is apropos.
(If I recall, there was a lively debate over it last year)[/b]

Just so you know, the Memorial video was not the one with the offending music. It was a video I did on the personal name of God that I used Gregorian music, which offended some of our former Catholic friends. I pulled that video off You Tube. However, I have managed to sneak a 4 second clip of the offending Gregorian chant into a video I am presently working on. :icon_neutral:
[/b][/quote]
Brother Robert...why would you PURPOSELY sneak Satans band in any of your doings ? (The Gregorians music) Even for 4 seconds ? Especially when you know it is offensive to others and do admit it is a chant? Isn&#39;t that being subliminal as the WT has done with some of their art work? It might be beautiful music to the ears but so are Satan and his crew....very confusing...especially when one knows the origin.
bertha

[Eli&#39;s Foe]

I take it Stayawake has left the Board now? What is the point of this division?

Peter has also left, his message made little sense before doing so.

Whatever our personal feelings about gregorian chant, was the provocation and reaction really appropriate. There are bigger issues than this to debate.

EF

[take me to paradise]

Robert, you said: &#39;I have managed to sneak a 4 second clip of the offending Gregorian chant into a video I am presently working on.&#39;

Why stop at 4 seconds? A little leaven ferments the whole lump. :38786-6:[/b]


:buja_w_oblokach: hee hee hee !

[take me to paradise]

&#39;It&#39;s silly to point to Gregorian chant as something to avoid because of its origins or ties to demonic influences and false worship.&#39;

Is it silly? If a person deliberately chooses religious music based on Satanic influence, how would Jehovah view it?

What did Jesus say?

John 4:23 &#39;But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to worship Him.&#39;

He also said:

Matthew 15:8 &#39;This people draws near to Me with their mouth, and honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.&#39;

I wonder if Jesus Christ would have sung Gregorian chants?

Love,

Steadfast[/b]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I can identify with this. Those singers and musicians performing songs supposedly praising our almighty creator need to read Matthew 15:8. I&#39;ve known and loved a couple of these &#39;spiritual&#39; men who although sang beautifully and wrote beautiful songs of love & praise that made me cry, sadly they live unBiblically. Needless to say, my heart was broken.
Love,
Monica

[Deborah]

Can anyone show me anything that is not tainted by Satan?

I am not advocating your selection, ewatchmen. Right now it appears that it could cause a stumbling. The word "chant" scares the wits out of me (rigid upbringing). However, I am not the judge of this. The bible says that all things are lawful. The food sacrificed to idol was ok to eat, as long as you did not stumble your brother.
If we consider the music to be the food sacrificed, then ewatchman has the right to use it. His intentions are to show praise to Jehovah with music that Jehovah gave us talent to create.

Perhaps saying "sneak in 4 sec" is showing sneaky intentions, but at the same time you readily admit it as public knowledge. So are you really trying to be sneaky? I think you just appreciate art. But I don&#39;t know your heart.

The bible says to keep putting up with each other in mildness and love. Is that the spirit that dwells inside of us? We each have our own hearts to protect and train.

Our christian suit of armor is to fight for our salvation. I do not see where we benefit by using our sword to "jab" someone. Love is the predominate quality to show who we belong to.

Love, Deborah

[Deborah]

Computer glitch...

[mickeyman]

I think many of you are wrong about Gregorian choral. That&#39;s only medieval style of music. If GC hadn&#39;t existed than music of modern era would be different from what you can hear today. GC is one of music evolution element&#39;s like Renaissance,barogue, classicism, romantism eras. Yes, catholic church had very strong influence in that times and music served first of all in churches, but it&#39;s history. Who are you to judge anybody in history ? May be many monks were frank believers but without accurate knowledge. We are not better and don&#39;t have a more christian music. It seem&#39;s to me many of JWs are very intolerant and disapproving without any education of the stuff and that make&#39;s me sad.
1. Corinthians 4:1-5 Let a man so appraise us as being subordinates of Christ and stewards of sacred secrets of God. 2 Besides, in this case, what is looked for in stewards is for a man to be found faithful. 3 Now to me it is a very trivial matter that I should be examined by YOU or by a human tribunal. Even I do not examine myself. 4 For I am not conscious of anything against myself. Yet by this I am not proved righteous, but he that examines me is Jehovah. 5 Hence do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring the secret things of darkness to light and make the counsels of the hearts manifest, and then each one will have his praise come to him from God.

[Steadfast]

Dear Disowned,

I don&#39;t celebrate Easter. I observe the Memorial of Christ&#39;s death as set by the Jewish calendar. Neither do I celebrate Christmas because it is a pagan holiday set in motion by the Roman Catholic church disguising a pagan Saturnalia as a Christian festival, but if you are a JW, then you should know this.

Make no mistake, the Roman Catholic church has assumed the position of the whore of Babylon that has many daughters.

Using the Gregorian calendar because it has been set by the country I live in, is far different than willfully making a decision to use Satanic music to worship the Creator of the Universe.

I am not the master of anyone&#39;s faith but my own, but this is a discussion board. I would suggest that you do your own research on this issue, as I assure you that I have spent years doing mine. For starters, please try looking at the roots of the Roman Catholic church. It is nothing more than Babylonian paganism hiding under the cloak of Christianity.

There are perilous times ahead. If you think that Jehovah is going to somehow protect a person who defends falsehood, here is what the apostle Paul had to say about it in 2 Thessalonians 2:

2Th 2:1 And, brothers, we entreat you, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together to Him,

2Th 2:2 for you not to be quickly shaken in the mind, nor to be disturbed, neither through a spirit, nor through speech, nor through letter, as through us, as if the Day of Christ has come.

2Th 2:3 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, because that day will not come unless first comes the falling away, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

2Th 2:4 the one opposing and exalting himself over everything being called God, or object of worship, so as for him "to sit in the temple of God" as God, setting forth himself, that he is God.

2Th 2:5 Do you not remember that I told you these things, I yet being with you?

2Th 2:6 And now you know the thing holding back, for him to be revealed in his time.

2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only he is holding back now, until it comes out of the midst.

2Th 2:8 And then "the Lawless One" will be revealed, "whom" "the Lord" "will consume" "by the spirit of His mouth," and will bring to nothing by the brightness of His presence.

2Th 2:9 His coming is according to the working of Satan in all power and miraculous signs and lying wonders,

2Th 2:10 and in all deceit of unrighteousness in those being lost, because they did not receive the love of the truth in order for them to be saved.

2Th 2:11 And because of this, God will send to them a working of error, for them to believe the lie,

2Th 2:12 that all may be judged, those not believing the truth, but who have delighted in unrighteousness.

The whole deception of the man of lawlessness got its start in the first century and has continued until our day.

By the way, did you bother to read any of the links I posted, or is your opinion one off the top of your head? :D
Love,

Steadfast

[Berean]

I agree with mickeyman and Disowned, in that it would seem a bit strange to denounce one Gregorian thing, yet readily accept the other, merely because it is &#39;Gregorian&#39;. I see it more as a genre of music, and yes, I can appreciate &#39;church music&#39; for its musical merits. Even with the limited knowledge of God in those days (remember, there were no Kingdom Halls, no JWs teaching people from the Bible, no Watchman on the Internet to inform people), pieces like Mozart&#39;s Requiem and Bach&#39;s Matthäuspassion are timeless pieces of music that could even be held dear by Christians today, despite the theological flaws they carry, if any.

However, I can also understand the point of view of those who used to be Catholics. I realize that anything that reeks of Catholicism is an instant no-no for many of you, but not all that came from the ranks of the Roman Church has necessarily been bad (Luther was a Catholic, and yet our JW theology owes something to his ideas, same with Augustine, etc...). That said, I think Robert is smart enough not to want to offend his brothers and sisters, and rather not eat meat, drink wine, or put Gregorian music into a video than to have brothers and sisters complain. That&#39;s of course a decision he has to make for himself, and I won&#39;t think any less of him either way - after all, it&#39;s his site, his videos - you don&#39;t have to watch them if you don&#39;t want to.

[Eli&#39;s Foe]

I think Robert is smart enough not to want to offend his brothers and sisters, and rather not eat meat, drink wine, or put Gregorian music into a video than to have brothers and sisters complain. That&#39;s of course a decision he has to make for himself, and I won&#39;t think any less of him either way - after all, it&#39;s his site, his videos - you don&#39;t have to watch them if you don&#39;t want to.[/b]


True, in fact I personally dont have a problem with the music whatsoever but that really is not the issue. I am bound by Robert&#39;s rules on this DB although there are things I should like to discuss openly which would contravene those rules, so I dont. Now there is a rule which applies to us all including Robert, - be peaceable with all men, so far as it depends on you. Now Robert professes to be a Christian, a Witness of Jehovah and more then that one of the annointed accordingly anything which provokes those who would be called brothers or sisters is not abiding by that principle.
I can imagine that a clip of gregorian chant against a backdrop of a discussion about the RC church would be in keeping and add to the effect in a video and likely inoffensive to most viewers, but to mention it in what appears to be a taunt (even tongue in cheek) is not fitting, especially when a heartfelt apology was issued on that very subject last year.

EF

[SlaveForJah]

This is a link to the short featured on ew-tv. Aprox three weeks now untill the memorial celebration.<a href="http://e-watchman.tv/memorial-480px.html" target="_blank">
</a>
http://e-watchman.tv/memorial-480px.html[/b]



Thanks Jinnvisible for the reminder.

Thanks Watchman for the video and btw, I still think the music is apropos.
(If I recall, there was a lively debate over it last year)

I would also like to link the watchtower&#39;s nicely done article on Jesus&#39; last days.

Reliving Jesus&#39; Last Days on Earth (http://www.watchtower.org/e/19980315/article_01.htm)



agape,
James[/b]

Just to remind ALL of my Brothers and Sisters...this thread was SUPPOSED to be about giving due honor and glory to our Shepherd for the trials he endured on ALL our behalf, and the attendant glory that belongs to Jehovah God for providing a way out for us.

I&#39;m not choosing sides here, as there are valid points all throughout this thread. But while others onlook (lurkers, posters, interested ones, truth seekers, those who sigh and groan, and potentially those who long to be of Jesus&#39; sheep) let us keep in mind that what we say here has widespread ramifications. Let&#39;s glorify Jehovah first and foremost!


Praise Jah, You People!

SlaveForJah

[James]

<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>in sackcloth and ashes,
James

[Steadfast]

Dear James,

I think it was Robert who &#39;hijacked&#39; the thread. :185:

If you think spiritual growth is defined by accepting music that is Satanic and associated with pagan religion, then you speak only for yourself.

This is still a discussion board and I will express my opinion on subjects that matter to me.

Please carry on with your discussion. :)

Love

Steadfast

[watchman]

Obviously some ex Catholics have very strong negative feelings about certain trappings associated with their former religion. That is perfectly understandable. And I respect the sensitivities of such individuals, which is why I pulled the offending video from the Internet. At the same time, though, respect is a two-way street, or at least it should be. How much better to find ways to respect others rather than harshly judge and condemn for their not abiding by our standards! That&#39;s what the core teachings of Christ are all about, right?

Watchman

[Deborah]

Dear Sister Steadfast,

Please put away your sword for a moment. You are really scaring the wits out of me with it.

Lets take a moment to meditate the fruits of the spirit...LOVE, JOY, PEACE, LONG-SUFFERING, KINDNESS, GOODNESS, FAITH, MILDNESS, SELF-CONTROL.

Your "discussions" are coming across as an attack and you are being overbearing with your point of view. Your "tone" is coming across like my mother screaming at me that I am the daughter of Satan.

Maybe you need to take a time out to reflect on what spirit is controlling you. I would be sad to see such a loving and dedicated sister "ensnared" by her own zealousness.

I am sorry for any offense I make by this post.

With Christian Love, Deborah

PS. Maybe someone would like to repost the pictorial without all this drama.

[Orchid]

My ears are bleeding, this was supposed to be an uplifting thread. :(

[Jinnvisible]

However due to the fact that it was not known what context the music was included in a completely different film, making a separation without knowing this seems superstitious and unreasoning. It would be tantamount to running at the TV in a panic stricken state to hit the off button before Jehovah becomes offended at the Islamic wailing in a TV news report about Islam.

[Deborah]

Hmmmm...
Steadfast says...

A new board member has made it their mission to act as gate-keeper for this forum. The things expressed by this one go beyond simple criticism of a topic. As far as I can see, there has been nothing but upheaval and discord with their constant rantings and ravings about what bothers them, and that somehow we are all missing the mark if we don&#39;t fall inline behind them.



Wow! And we come full circle FINALLY after all this drama. If you dish out a foul, you can&#39;t you except a foul. Why can&#39;t you address the fact that I am offended by your spiritistic post?

Deb

[Deborah]

Dear Sister Steadfast,

Please put away your sword for a moment. You are really scaring the wits out of me with it.

Lets take a moment to meditate the fruits of the spirit...LOVE, JOY, PEACE, LONG-SUFFERING, KINDNESS, GOODNESS, FAITH, MILDNESS, SELF-CONTROL.

Your "discussions" are coming across as an attack and you are being overbearing with your point of view. Your "tone" is coming across like my mother screaming at me that I am the daughter of Satan.

Maybe you need to take a time out to reflect on what spirit is controlling you. I would be sad to see such a loving and dedicated sister "ensnared" by her own zealousness.

I am sorry for any offense I make by this post.

With Christian Love, Deborah

PS. Maybe someone would like to repost the pictorial without all this drama.[/b]


I&#39;m sorry to everyone for not keeping a mild spirit. I tried.
I also feel attacked and gained up on.
When I first remarked foul, may feelings where pushed aside.

Do I want to beat it up over and over? No. But I want the truth to surface here.

Love, Deborah