A Scenario On The Resurrection

[Kenneth]

A scenario on the resurrection

Let's say we have a family of four, husband, wife and two children and the year is 1992. The husband is doing well in business, he loves his wife and children and life is good. One morning he kisses his wife goodbye walks through the door and drops dead. Some time passes and the wife finds' Jehovah. She remarries a worshiper of God and they both make it to the new system. They have children of their own and her children from her fist marriage have grown up. Now we know death is a sleep and between death and the resurrection it's only a twinkle of an eye time wise. So Jehovah sees fit to resurrect him. What does he find? He finds his wife in the arms of another man, not only that but she has his children. Now I'm sure Jehovah has this situation all taken care of but you have to admit it's all a bit bazaar. Do you have any crazy scenarios, and what are your thoughts on this one?

Kenneth

[Sketch]

'Til death do us part... I can't know for sure how I would feel, but I know now as it is, and I've told my wife that if something like that should happen to me, then she shouldn't hesitate to be happy. I've all but told her that she needs to remarry... but thats me, and thats how I feel...

I don't know how I would react if I woke up one morning and she was someone else's... but she would be happy, and alive, and that for me is what I want for her... I want her to be happy, even if its not with me....

now, if you don't mind, i need a drink....

[Berean]

The only solution I see to this is that Jehovah will erase all our memories, at least the ones that are painful or might become that. Perhaps that's what is meant with 'he will wipe out every tear from their eyes'.

[Shibboleth]

A wife's husband dies in a tragic accident and marries husband no. 2. He dies in a tragic accident and remarries again to husband no. 3. he dies and she goes on to marry 4 more times each husband dying. So who gets her in the resurection?

Check out Mark 12 for the answer.

[Berean]

A wife's husband dies in a tragic accident and marries husband no. 2. He dies in a tragic accident and remarries again to husband no. 3. he dies and she goes on to marry 4 more times each husband dying. So who gets her in the resurection?

Check out Mark 12 for the answer.[/b]
True, but in Kenneth's variation of that story, both husband no. 7 and his wife would never die. :)

[Jeshurun]

A wife's husband dies in a tragic accident and marries husband no. 2. He dies in a tragic accident and remarries again to husband no. 3. he dies and she goes on to marry 4 more times each husband dying. So who gets her in the resurection?

Check out Mark 12 for the answer.[/b]

If I ended up with her I'd be petrified to move an inch.

[juffowup]

The only solution I see to this is that Jehovah will erase all our memories, at least the ones that are painful or might become that. Perhaps that's what is meant with 'he will wipe out every tear from their eyes'.[/b]

I prefer to think of it is that when we are perfect, we can see a situation perfectly. Instead of thinking our wife has betrayed us by falling in love with another man, we will understand that she was lonely and fulfilled her obligation to us by remaining faithful until our death. I think a man finding himself in that situation in the new world will love his former wife as a sister, continue to love his children, and may well find happiness with some one resurrected who is in the same position as he is.

When we are perfect, there will be no jealousy, nor any cause for it. It might be hard for us to conceive of now, but that is because we are, well, imperfect. :D

[Warren]

What does he find? He finds his wife in the arms of another man, not only that but she has his children. Now I'm sure Jehovah has this situation all taken care of but you have to admit it's all a bit bazaar. Do you have any crazy scenarios, and what are your thoughts on this one?[/b]


I don't think this situation will occur. I think that by the time the resurrection takes place the marriage arrangement will no longer exist, child bearing will have ceased and all children that survive Armageddon or are born in the new world will be adults.

[Kenneth]

I don't think this situation will occur. I think that by the time the resurrection takes place the marriage arrangement will no longer exist, child bearing will have ceased and all children that survive Armageddon or are born in the new world will be adults.[/b]

Warren I’m going to have to disagree on this one. At what point would married couples not be married any longer, do we all wakeup one day and that’s it the party’s over for the Martians and the Venusians. I can’t see it. Man and women were made for each other its all part of being human. If it were all to end and we live forever on earth what will be the point of the productive organs a million years form now, they would be rendered useless. I believe that they reproductive process will never end. It has been discussed on another thread but Jehovah must have created the other planet in the vastness of the universe and theses will no doubt one day be inhabited by humankind, in fact each one of us could be the Adam and Eve of our very own planet.



Kenneth

[stayawake]

Hi this is a great subject, will add my scenario later Not that my thoughts(dreams ) mean anything, but I always did love this subject:whisper.sml:

[Warren]

<div class='quotemain'>
I believe that the reproductive process will never end.[/b]

Well, with 15 billion people coming back in the resurrection I think plain old common sense dictates that these people will not be reproducing. On top of that we have the clear words of Jesus that the children of the resurrection do not marry. One could speculate that Armageddon survivor&#39;s will be married and having children throughout the 1000 years while the resurrected one&#39;s look on in envy but I find that scenario untenable for all sorts of reasons, some of which you touched on in your opening post.

[Shibboleth]

<div class='quotemain'>
I believe that the reproductive process will never end.[/b]

Well, with 15 billion people coming back in the resurrection I think plain old common sense dictates that these people will not be reproducing. On top of that we have the clear words of Jesus that the children of the resurrection do not marry. One could speculate that Armageddon survivor&#39;s will be married and having children throughout the 1000 years while the resurrected one&#39;s look on in envy but I find that scenario untenable for all sorts of reasons, some of which you touched on in your opening post.
[/b][/b][/quote]

Well I personally think that Jesus was specifically speaking about those who would be resurected to a heavenly calling. It has been widely debated by the Society.

I personally think like Kenneth. I think that after satan is finally destroyed Jehovah will reveal to us many new things. I remember some people said (a long time ago) that we would go back to not wearing clothes and some of the more attractive sisters in the hall got creeped out over those comments. I don&#39;t think we are going to regress to a state like Adam and Eve were accustomed to, but we are going to continue to progress forward. We will continue inventing and creating new ideas here on the earth. I think we will finally be able to go into space and explore different planets.

No, I think Jehovah&#39;s Grand Purpose is more in depth then just filling this earth and never again have children after it is filled. We have a whole universe to explore and I am certain that right now in the making there are earth-like planets out there.

regards,

Shibboleth

[Warren]

Jesus was asked a question concerning the earthly resurrection and I can&#39;t imagine why he wouldn&#39;t have given an answer that applied to the earthly resurrection. I&#39;m with the Society on this one.

I don&#39;t dispute the possiblility of humans populating other planets but that has nothing to do with what happens during the 1000 years here on earth. Unless we are going to be standing on each other&#39;s heads it is clear that the 15 billion resurrected ones will not be reproducing, otherwise, you could have a birth rate of over 7 billion per year!

[Berean]

I doubt we&#39;ll be exploring the universe in the new world. That would pretty much defeat the purpose of inhabiting Earth forever... aside from the complications of having to develop spacecraft that wouldn&#39;t pollute the environment in any way. I&#39;ve always imagined paradise to be a return to the simple life, where there&#39;s nothing between a man and his God.

And I&#39;d have to say that if there will indeed be 15 billion resurrected, reproduction would have to stop at some point. There&#39;s only so much land on our planet, and I wouldn&#39;t want us to have to resort to building skyscrapers again to house everyone.

[Kenneth]

How is this meant to take place, are we all going to wake up someday to singleness. The society has been unbending on this for years that the resurrected ones will not marry. They are however quiet on the matter of those who are already married and have said little about it. Is Jehovah going to have two classes of people, a reproductive and non-reproductive class?

Also I&#39;m pretty sure if the landmass was greater the earth would accommodate the resurrected and their offspring. If we are nearer perfection we will have greater self-control and self-regulation that will enable us to keep our families smaller.


Kenneth

[Warren]

The society has been unbending on this for years that the resurrected ones will not marry. They are however quiet on the matter of those who are already married and have said little about it.[/b]

I haven&#39;t been to a JW wedding for many years but it use to be said in the ceremony that the marriage was to last until the death of one of the spouses or the dissolution of the marriage arrangement. The phrase "dissolution of the marriage arrangement" was understood as meaning the end of the marriage arrangement sometime during the millennium.


Is Jehovah going to have two classes of people, a reproductive and non-reproductive class?[/b]

I certainly hope not. That&#39;s why I think the marriage arrangement will have ended by the time the resurrection begins.

[Shibboleth]

I doubt we&#39;ll be exploring the universe in the new world. That would pretty much defeat the purpose of inhabiting Earth forever... aside from the complications of having to develop spacecraft that wouldn&#39;t pollute the environment in any way. I&#39;ve always imagined paradise to be a return to the simple life, where there&#39;s nothing between a man and his God.[/b]

We will be perfect. So we will use our minds and energy to do perfect things. Like building things that don&#39;t pollute. There are ways to make spaceships to utilize solar winds. I don&#39;t think we will ever be denied our curiousity and our wanting to explore. This makes us unique individuals. There will always be that yearning to learn and explore.

I think it would be very exciting to explore space. I was an avid watcher of the show Farscape. Even though it was science fiction and most of the premise of the show was geared on violence, but it was amazing to see the imagination the producers had.

As far as Jesus&#39;s comments on the resurection, he was answering the Pharisees question and he did it to prove a point. We don&#39;t know what Jehovah has in store. all we can do is speculate. When you start believing your own speculations you may be shocked when it turns out totally different then how you thought.

I am not holding out a prospect of flying into space and visiting distant stars because Jehovah&#39;s purpose may be totally different then what I think. All I can go on are the basic facts about Jehovah : he is a loving provider, He wants us to be happy and He has a reason for everything.

Jehovah&#39;s original purpose for the earth was to fill it. We have no idea what His purpose is for the universe.



Genesis 2

18 (http://) And Jehovah God went on to say: “It is not good for the man to continue by himself. I am going to make a helper for him, as a complement of him.”[/b]

Jehovah did not make man just so he could remain single. He noticed that it wasn&#39;t good for man to be by himself. That is why He created woman. If it is Jehovah&#39;s purpose for the resurected ones to remain single and not marry then He goes back on His words that He originally spoke in Eden about Adam.

If anyone has played chess, then you know tha goal is to try and outsmart your opponent. You have to think many moves ahead and if he doesn&#39;t do the move you originally thought then you have to readjust. i am trying to think of many moves ahead and whatever Jehovah lays out for me I will readjust. Don&#39;t get into the mode of thinking that would make you closed minded. you have to be open to every possible scenario.

regards,

Shibboleth

[Shibboleth]

<div class='quotemain'>The society has been unbending on this for years that the resurrected ones will not marry. They are however quiet on the matter of those who are already married and have said little about it.[/b]

I haven&#39;t been to a JW wedding for many years but it use to be said in the ceremony that the marriage was to last until the death of one of the spouses or the dissolution of the marriage arrangement. The phrase "dissolution of the marriage arrangement" was understood as meaning the end of the marriage arrangement sometime during the millennium.


Is Jehovah going to have two classes of people, a reproductive and non-reproductive class?[/b]

I certainly hope not. That&#39;s why I think the marriage arrangement will have ended by the time the resurrection begins.
[/b][/quote]

We are going to be witnesses to the biggest marriage of all - Jesus and the 144,000. I do not think there will be a disolving of marriage. Jehovah instituted it. The bible never says that the marriage would be dissolved. In fact Revelation shows the marriage of one the greatest if not THE greatest thing to ever happen for mankind.

I am kinda bewildered as to where some of you come up with your ideas. Did someone tell you this? Can you find it in the Bible for me? cause I would really love to see the reasoning. (Just being inquisitive and not demeaning I really want to know!)

[Kenneth]

I am kinda bewildered as to where some of you come up with your ideas. Did someone tell you this? Can you find it in the Bible for me? cause I would really love to see the reasoning. (Just being inquisitive and not demeaning I really want to know!)[/b]


No it&#39;s just mere speculation and conjecture.

Kenneth

[Warren]

I am kinda bewildered as to where some of you come up with your ideas. Did someone tell you this? Can you find it in the Bible for me? cause I would really love to see the reasoning. (Just being inquisitive and not demeaning I really want to know!)[/b]

As far as I know, my perspective on the resurrection is pretty much in line with what the Society teaches and what most JW&#39;s believe. I don&#39;t understand where you are getting this idea that marriage is forever. That has never been my understanding. I am a third generation JW. I was taught from the beginning that Jehovah created two sexes and instituted the marriage arrangement to accomplish the purpose of filling the earth with righteous people. That wasn&#39;t going to take forever. It was only going to take at most about 7,000 years. I don&#39;t know about now but for several decades the JW marriage ceremony spoke about a future dissolution of the marriage arrangement that didn&#39;t involve the death of either spouse. Millions of JW&#39;s that got married in the past were thus alerted that the marriage arrangement was not going to last forever.

All of my family, friends and elders I know are of the opinion that the marriage arrangement will end at some point during the Millennium. It is only on this forum that I&#39;ve become aware of divergent views.


If it is Jehovah&#39;s purpose for the resurrected ones to remain single and not marry then He goes back on His words that He originally spoke in Eden about Adam.[/b]

That certainly isn&#39;t the view of the Society or most JW&#39;s.

[Kenneth]

I don&#39;t know about now but for several decades the JW marriage ceremony spoke about a future dissolution of the marriage arrangement that didn&#39;t involve the death of either spouse. Millions of JW&#39;s that got married in the past were thus alerted that the marriage arrangement was not going to last forever.[/b]

I would really like to see this in writing. Nowhere in scripture to my knowledge does it mention the dissolution of the marriage arrangement. Also it would be strange for animals to be pro-creating and humans were not.



Kenneth

[Warren]

<div class='quotemain'>


I would really like to see this in writing. Nowhere in scripture to my knowledge does it mention the dissolution of the marriage arrangement. Also it would be strange for animals to be pro-creating and humans were not.[/b]

Animals die. They need to pro-create or go extinct.

As for what is said in the JW wedding ceremony, I&#39;m just pointing out that a large number of JW&#39;s believe that marriage is not forever because they heard about the dissolution of the marriage arrangement at their wedding. I, on the other hand, have other reasons for thinking marriage is not forever.

[Jeshurun]

I don&#39;t know about now but for several decades the JW marriage ceremony spoke about a future dissolution of the marriage arrangement that didn&#39;t involve the death of either spouse. Millions of JW&#39;s that got married in the past were thus alerted that the marriage arrangement was not going to last forever.[/b]

Hi Warren

Is the Society really saying this? Is it in any of the publications?

Are they re-writing Jehovah&#39;s marriage laws also?

What&#39;s gotten into the water in Brooklyn???

[Warren]

Hi Jeshurun,

I haven&#39;t attended a wedding in 20 years so I don&#39;t know what is currently said in the wedding talk but they use to say that the marriage would last till the death of one of the spouses or until the divine dissolution of the marriage arrangement.






<blockquote>
<blockquote> </blockquote></blockquote>

[stayawake]

Years ago, the District Conventions allowed for a few questions and answers. We know Jesus did say the only thing that broke a marriage was adultry and death.
Of course the adultry mate could be forgiven if the two wanted to work thru that. If not then the injured mate was free to remarry, but only in the LORD( this of course was advice to Gods household the annointed,) but i am sure the same principles apply to all of JWs.
The reason given for death disolving a marriage was so the younger ones would not fall into the snare of forncation, and also if there where childen, she would need help in raising them.
Other then that we have examples in the Bible that show we will be reunited with our loves ones. Are we not going to welcome them back.? Jesus likened Death to sleep.
In fact each night we go to bed may be likened to a rehersal with death.
When we awaken in the morning we remember the day before ,don&#39;t we ?
When Jesus called Lazarus from the grave, Lazarus went home with his sisters. All the ones raised back then in the first century, just stayed with the ones they were with when they died.
Can you imagine one waiting and not marring for years so they can be with their mate who may have died. Even if those in the resurrection, won&#39;t have sex there still was that spiritual bond.
this would all apply to the resurrection of Rightious ones.who knew Jehovah when they died and made Him their God.
Can you see Abraham and Sarah, being raised together and having to have seperate quarters ?? If the husbands and wifes are going to be seperated, can you imagine what that would do to the family tree ??? Think about it .We would have all the men on one side of the moutain (so to speak ) and the females on the other side. What a mess !!!
Jehovah is a God of order. Every thing that Jesus did on earth was a preview of what his 1000 year rule for the earth would be like.
Who knows there may just be a mass marriage for all to be reunited again.
Now for the survivors of Armigedden, when theres a great earth quake any where in the world, life still goes on after wards
doesnt it? Those who excaped death still get married and have children,
Life goes on.
As far as filling the earth , There was a report not too many years ago that said every one living now could all STAND in the state of Texas.
IMHO after the survivors and those in the Rightous resurrection ,restore the earth and ready a place for the unrighous to be brought back in orderly fashion( the last first) so each family can welcome back their own, then ,no doubt the" mandate law" will have been done away with.when that resurrection starts

Those among that group are being brought back for a great teaching program, to learn all all that we know in regards to . Jehovah , and their reason to be awaken, by Christ Jesus
Must remember this is how i see it,so i only speak for myself.
love stayawake

[Jeshurun]

I have to agree with you Stayawake. I can&#39;t imagine Jehovah&#39;s Kingdom telling resurrected ones that they cannot be with their mates again if they choose to. But I do believe that their marriage vows would have to be renewed, since death has parted them. I&#39;m sure that Jehovah has the most beautiful wedding ceremonies planned for the new system, and what an honor for the marriages to be registered into the records of New Jerusalem!

[Berean]

But that would still mean that if husband #1 dies and his wife remarries, she would be reunited with husband #2, and husband #1 would be left out in the cold...

[Shibboleth]

Hi Warren,

I have been in the truth since I was very young (I am 35 years old now) and I have never heard anything like that in a marriage talk or on the platform.

I personally think alot of people will be really shocked when they get into the new system and see that some of the things they thought were going to happen doesn&#39;t. (me included)

I personally think that if Jehovah did intend for the earth to just be filled and that was it, he would have just created everyone Himself and not have people get married and get rid of the sexual organs. Then we would be like angels here on earth.



Isaiah 11

8 (http://) And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand.[/b]


In every picture of the paradise the Society puts out what do you see? Children.


Once we are able to see the new scrolls and what Jehovah has in store for us after the 1,000 years we will be able to better discern what He wants us to continue to do. (since Jesus and the 144,000 rule the earth for only 1,000 years after that what do they do?)


regards,

Shibboleth

[stayawake]

Jesh
that was such a pleasent thought.
For the reunited dead loved ones to be reregestered in Jahs NEW SYSTEM
certainly goes along with the scripture of His" Making all Thing New, "doesn&#39;t it. !!
Abraham loved Sarah soo much, that before he died, he picked out a grave to be buried right beside her,
which means they will be raised at the same time.
Can you imagine their just saying," it was nice knowing you," and walking away !!!

[juffowup]

WARNING! WARNING! RAMPANT, UN-BIBLICAL SPECULATION ABOUT TO TAKE PLACE!!!

I&#39;m with the contingent here that states we&#39;re going to take off and head for the stars. Earth is just the beginning, exactly the way the Garden of Eden was the beginning. We&#39;re not made to stay here forever. There is a lot of stuff out there, we can see it, study it, and even in our imperfect ways today, reach out and visit some of it. I think there is a reason all that stuff is out there, and its not just to look pretty in the night sky. I believe once we have completed Jehovah&#39;s purpose for the Earth, He will have a new purpose for us. Space... the final frontier. These are the voyages of Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses. Their continuing mission: To explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations. To boldly knock on doors where no man has knocked before!

I&#39;m kidding about that last part. I don&#39;t believe in aliens. That&#39;s where my extra-biblical ravings give out. Anyway...

Maybe we will go back to primitive cultivation, take off our clothes, forget about personal grooming, and start speaking Hebrew. Maybe we&#39;ll all get our acre of land and a vine to grow and a fig tree to sit under and that will be that. That would be fine with me, this old rock is pretty good place to be on!

END WILD RAVINGS OF LUNATIC!!

All I know is that He will open His hand and satisfy every living thing&#39;s desire. And that will be enough.

[Gabriel]

I think that sometimes we, as humans, tend to put things in a box that we can understand and I thinks thats exactly what is being played out here. Jehovah&#39;s wisdom is like an abyss....in fact I think theres a scripture that points to this very fact that speaks of Jehovahs knowledge and wisdom being deeper than sheol. We have nothing to worry about friends, nothing at all. Look at the vastness of Jehovahs wisdom when it appeared that satan had him in "check mate" in the garden of eden. It appeared that everything was lost. Im sure every angel in heaven had their eyes on Jehovah wondering how he was going to respond......wondering if he could respond. But when Jehovah uttered the words of the prophecy of the seed crushing satan in the head and so on and so forth, Can you imagine how the angels were awed by Jehovahs wisdom!

Take a look at when satan and the demons came down to have sexual relations with the daughters of men, attempting to prevent the arrival of the promised seed Jesus Christ. again it looked like another check mate did it not. And you have to admit Satans scheam looked flawless in fact brilliant. How could the seed arrive if satan already changed the DNA of mankind and if Jehovah decided to destroy mankind he would be forced to start completely over and in doing so would be defeat in itself. Therefore Jehovah would have to admit defeat but was that the case...no! Jehovah preserved Noah and his family and destroyed that world of wickedness therefore starting a new line with noah...BRILLIANT!!

Point is Jehovah has proven time and time again that he is a MASTER THINKER do you think that he doesnt have a brilliant plan in mind for the human family?! we can all trust that it would all be beyond our wildest imagination and whats more Husband 1,2,3,4,5 and 6 will be completely satisfied.

[Warren]

Hi Warren,

I have been in the truth since I was very young (I am 35 years old now) and I have never heard anything like that in a marriage talk or on the platform.[/b]

Well, I&#39;m of a older generation than you. Perhaps the phrase "till the divine termination of the marriage arrangement" has been deleted from the JW marriage talk but I can assure you that it was there for a long time. But it really doesn&#39;t matter because even if this phrase was still in the JW marriage talk you wouldn&#39;t agree with it, right?

The bottom line here is how one understands Jesus&#39; words that those resurrected don&#39;t marry. I agree with the Society that Jesus was referring to the earthly resurrection when he said this. Jesus was asked if a woman in this life had seven husbands whose wife would she be in the earthly resurrection. If in fact those resurrected back to life on earth can marry then the answer would have been that she would be free to marry whomever she wants because death terminates the marriage bond. But Jesus gave a different answer. Why? Maybe he answered the way he did because he knew that those brought back to life on earth will not marry.
Mark 12:25

[Shibboleth]

Littlevalue that was superbly awesome verbage.

In fact everyone has contributed greatly to this thread. What I like about it is that everyone has a different perspective on what might be in store for us and that keeps us going. It&#39;s our faith that Jehovah will make things right. If we didn&#39;t have that faith then we have no hope.


Shibboleth

[Shibboleth]

<div class='quotemain'>Hi Warren,

I have been in the truth since I was very young (I am 35 years old now) and I have never heard anything like that in a marriage talk or on the platform.[/b]

Well, I&#39;m of a older generation than you. Perhaps the phrase "till the divine termination of the marriage arrangement" has been deleted from the JW marriage talk but I can assure you that it was there for a long time. But it really doesn&#39;t matter because even if this phrase was still in the JW marriage talk you wouldn&#39;t agree with it anyway. Right?

[/b][/quote]


I would not agree with that phrase if it is still used in wedding talks. The more I think about the more I sort of remember that verbage. I will have to talk to an elder and see if I can get a copy of the wedding talk. If I get a copy I will send it to you if you like.

I am in no way disputing what Jesus said, but I also look at the circumstances he was in. the Pharisees were trying to trap him so he may have said what he said in a way as not to be found fault with. I try and just put it into perspective that it was a different time and people said things that may have lost their original meaning.

I guess I will have to wait and see, if I even survive to see the new world.

Shibboleth

[Jeshurun]

I don&#39;t think the Pharisees understood the heavenly resurrection, it was a new concept to them. I doesn&#39;t make sense that Jesus would reply with an answer that applies to both resurrections. Since he said "neither do they die anymore", he could not have been speaking of the human resurrection, as no human will ever have immortality independent of Jehovah. Also, in the same setting, Jesus spoke of the re-creation, specifically referring to the new arrangement between heaven and earth. The resurrected anointed ones would be a new creation, since their being born again would require a spirit body.

Similar to when Jesus said to the evildoer, "you will be with me in Paradise", the only paradise the evildoer knew of was the Garden of Eden, since it was only the Hebrew Scriptures that existed at that time and what everyone had been taught their whole lives.

Or the resurrection of Lazarus, which Jesus referred to as a sign of greater things to come in the new system of things.

Once again, Jehovah&#39;s purposes do not change, and for that reason I believe he intends on restoring earthly conditions to the same as they were in the beginning. We certainly can&#39;t expect only Armageddon survivors to be able to procreate, personally I think that would be absurd.

I agree with Watchman that there is no scriptural basis for the Society to teach that the resurrected will not marry.

[Warren]

I would not agree with that phrase if it is still used in wedding talks. The more I think about it the more I sort of remember that verbage. I will have to talk to an elder and see if I can get a copy of the wedding talk. If I get a copy I will send it to you if you like.[/b]

If it has been changed you might want to ask the elder if he knows why it was changed.

The only reason I brought this up in the first place was to show why many JW&#39;s don&#39;t think that marriage is forever. They heard so right at their wedding! I don&#39;t submit this as any kind of proof that marriage isn&#39;t forever. The Society could be wrong. I&#39;m merely pointing out why many JW&#39;s have this particular view.


I am in no way disputing what Jesus said, but I also look at the circumstances he was in. the Pharisees were trying to trap him so he may have said what he said in a way as not to be found fault with. I try and just put it into perspective that it was a different time and people said things that may have lost their original meaning.[/b]

Yes, the enemies of Jesus were trying to trap him but there was an easy way out of the trap. If in fact resurrected ones do marry then all Jesus had to say in response to the question posed to him about the woman with seven husbands was that she was free to marry whomever she wanted because death terminates the marriage bond. There was no need for Jesus to fool his enemies by responding to their question about a situation pertaining to the earthly resurrection with an answer that applied only to the heavenly resurrection.

I speculate that Armageddon survivors will only be married and procreating in the early part of the millennium before the resurrection begins. Once the resurrection begins there will be no need for more children to be born. The marriage arrangement will be terminated. The billions of resurrected ones will fill the earth thus accomplishing the mandate given to Adam and Eve.

[Shibboleth]

All good points Jeshurun.

I personally can&#39;t wait to see this earth get cleaned up. I can&#39;t wait to see my grandparents again and friends I have lost in death.

[Shibboleth]

<div class='quotemain'>I would not agree with that phrase if it is still used in wedding talks. The more I think about it the more I sort of remember that verbage. I will have to talk to an elder and see if I can get a copy of the wedding talk. If I get a copy I will send it to you if you like.[/b]

If it has been changed you might want to ask the elder if he knows why it was changed.

The only reason I brought this up in the first place was to show why many JW&#39;s don&#39;t think that marriage is forever. They heard so right at their wedding! I don&#39;t submit this as any kind of proof that marriage isn&#39;t forever. The Society could be wrong. I&#39;m merely pointing out why many JW&#39;s have this particular view.

[/b][/quote]

Totally understand where you are coming from. It was verbage I never really took to heart. If the verbage has been taken out I will ask why. I want a copy so taht if I ever do get married it will be one phrase that will not be given at my wedding.

[Kenneth]

The problem I have is what is it to be human? Are we all meant to be eunuchs in the new system of things? Even when we are perfect and have full control of our body members the idea of the family should not vanish. The whole idea that man and woman will be no more united as one is based on one scripture and one that is unclear and nebulas. To say that the marriage arrangement will be dissolved on the basis of one scripture is mere conjecture. I&#39;m trying to think of what it is to be human. We all have a spiritual need, but we have to remember we are also physical beings, we enjoy other peoples company, we enjoy our children, our wife, our parents, our fleshly brothers/sisters we are humans Jehovah created us that way. I just want to know at what point my marriage will be dissolved. I&#39;m I supposed to receive a &#39;decree absolute&#39; at some point. Yes I&#39;m a human being and have human emotion and feels and having a wife and children are all part of the process that Jehovah created.



Kenneth

[stayawake]

Hi Ken, I hear you yelling, and I really understand where you are coming from.
Jah did create and bless the family arrangement, this is one reason marriages are always under attack, because this arrangement is Jehovah&#39;s,
Its the Mandate Law carried on from the garden in Eden to after the Food.
We are all decendents from those eight suvivors, there fore our bodies are still under that Law. Theres no fighting it&#39; .
Being that LAW was carried over thru the flood by Jehovah God Himself, theres no fighting it ,unless one has a strong desire and prayer to remain in a single stage.
Now on the other hand If Jah would remove that LAW under perfect conditions, I am sure no one would protest,because that Mandate Law would have been fullfilled, if Jah so desires.
One would not miss sex ,if that drive were taken away.
Look at the situation or arrangement now.
When a woman gets past the child bearing years, i have yet to hear her complain about not having anymore children, and as a man gets older, his sex hormones slow down, if he will allow it to happen, All of this has been accepted as a part of life, because of the natural ageing in satans world .
The only way that can be stopped at present is satans right in there to offer his pills ,
Being that after armeggden, our aging will go into reverse, who knows what Jah has in store for us, He does tell us He will be satisfying all our desires,
The scroptures say EYES have not seen nor ears heard what He has in store for us which proves there is a lot more to life then what we know at present.Of course satan does not want us to believe that ,yet remember "God CANNOT LIE "
I do feel After Armeggeden we will be sooo busy through out the day that for the longest time our minds are not going to be on sex, at the end of the day when we hit the hay it will be to sleep.
You are absolutly right Ken we cannot base our faith on one scripture, espicially when that one seems to have a double meaning,
We know scripture will interperate its self when its ready for us, this perticular one cannot right now. IMHO This is the reason
John tells us that out of the mouth of two or three witnesses something can be so.
The bible was inspired and penned by 40 different writters. so until other scriptures can support what we are looking for, we will just have to wait and see.
Apparently we are not ready for that information yet. Right now we have to ready ourself for the GT. IMHO, all food is given in due season,
I only soeak for myself
love stayawake

[Kenneth]

I don&#39;t think this is a case of physical human emotion or contact with the opposite sex. I&#39;m just trying to base my conjectural evidence on human nature perfect or not. If Jehovah says we are to be single then single it is, it will save men building sheds at the end of the garden.

Older women not being able to bear children is a blessing from Jehovah for obvious reasons. However, the sex drive can go on for years and at what point it stops I&#39;m not sure, after all Charlie Chaplin fathered a child in his 80s. Of course the drive can be taken away and it might for a period only time will tell.



Kenneth

[Warren]

Here&#39;s the way I look at it. Jehovah could have decided to fill the earth with humans by creating them directly as he did the angels. No male and female. No marriage. No pro-creation. Humans would have been like the angels in that they would have been asexual beings. As an aside, if Jehovah had done so it would not have been possible for the sin of two humans to have been passed on to the whole human race. But Jehovah decided to go a different route. He purposed to fill the earth by a process of pro-creation. So two sexes were created that would be bonded in a marriage arrangement wherein children would be born and raised in a family. This whole deal was designed to fulfill the purpose of filling the earth with humans. So what was going to happen when the objective was accomplished? That&#39;s what we are trying to figure out. It seems logical to me that once the earth was filled with the number of humans that Jehovah intended that childbearing would cease. I don&#39;t see how anyone could dispute that.

So the question remaining is whether marriage and sex will continue on in the absence of childbearing. Maybe. But the words of Jesus that the children of the resurrection don&#39;t marry tells me otherwise. I know some of you think this applies only to the heavenly resurrection but I don&#39;t agree. If we find out in the new world that marriage and sex are going to continue forever I will be pleasantly surprised.

[Kenneth]

Hi Warren

I can&#39;t see marriage and sex existing without children being part of the equation. I wouldn&#39;t be dogmatic about the meaning of Jesus words in that he was referring to the heavenly resurrection as you may be right. It&#39;s interesting that Jehovah has said little on the matter. There is logic to what you are saying, but since when have we humans been logical. The answer may well lie in the vastness of the universe and the other planets and what Jehovah&#39;s intentions are for them. One thought though if man and women were to inherit the earth for all eternity and one day we reach a billion zillion yeas of age don&#39;t you think we will wonder what those body parts are for.

Kenneth

[Warren]

Hi Warren,

I can&#39;t see marriage and sex existing without children being part of the equation.[/b]

Hi Kenneth,


I agree. So when I couple that perspective along with the logical conclusion that childbearing has to stop once the earth is "filled", and factor in Jesus words about the children of the resurrection not getting married, it seems to me that the marriage arrangement and the ability to have sex and produce offspring will end here on earth at some point. However, that doesn&#39;t preclude the possibility of humans populating other planets. If it is Jehovah&#39;s will that we become the Adam and Eve of our own planet He can certainly restore our reproductive powers at that time.

[Shibboleth]

However, that doesn&#39;t preclude the possibility of humans populating other planets. If it is Jehovah&#39;s will that we become the Adam and Eve of our own planet He can certainly restore our reproductive powers at that time.[/b]

Way to go Warren! Now you are thinking! Space.

But I digress whatever Jehovah decrees it will be for our own good whether it is to no longer have children or travel space to search out new worlds.

Regards,

Shibboleth

[Warren]

"whatever Jehovah decrees it will be for our own good whether it is to no longer have children or travel space to search out new worlds."


Hi Shibboleth,

Amen to that!

[Berean]

"whatever Jehovah decrees it will be for our own good whether it is to no longer have children or travel space to search out new worlds."


Hi Shibboleth,

Amen to that![/b]

Yes, I&#39;d like to echo that. My personal thoughts aside, I&#39;m ready to do whatever Jehovah has in store for us, whether it&#39;s staying single forever or traveling to distant planets - I know that He just wants us to be happy. :)

[Warren]

How long have angels existed? Perhaps billions of years. If they are happy there&#39;s no reason to think it won&#39;t be the same for humans.

[James]

Hi Warren,

I take note that both Mt 22:30 and Lu 20:34,35 say those resurrected will be like angels. The King James version says in Lu 20:36 "Neither can they die anymore for they are equal to angels" and the Living Bible phrases Lu 20:34,35,36 this way "Jesus replied, Marriage is for people here on earth, but when those who are counted worthy of being raised from the dead get to heaven, they do not marry. And they never die again, in these respects they are like angels.... So I believe Jesus was referring to the heavenly resurrection.
Also how will people build houses and occupy them? Will not males and females be attracted to one another and fall in love and wish to be together? I think that as long as there are opposite sexes there will be a bonding together in some form of marriage.

BTW, just wondering where you got your figure of 15 billion resurrected?

Brotherly Love,
James

[Jeshurun]

the Living Bible phrases Lu 20:34,35,36 this way "Jesus replied, Marriage is for people here on earth, but when those who are counted worthy of being raised from the dead get to heaven, they do not marry. And they never die again, in these respects they are like angels[/b]


THANK YOU JAMES! Jesus definitely makes a distinction between the two resurrections here:


³⁴ Jesus said to them: "The children of this system of things marry and are given in marriage, ³⁵ but those who have been counted worthy of gaining that system of things and the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage. ³⁶ In fact, neither can they die anymore, for they are like the angels, and they are God&#39;s children by being children of the resurrection




It&#39;s "this system of things" that throws everyone off. Jesus was referring to the earth in general when he said that, it does not mean that in the new system marriage will be done away with! Now let&#39;s forget this absurd idea! There&#39;s a zillion other planets that Jehovah may decide to populate. Never may we think Jehovah would have us be asexual beings living in eternal loneliness. Jehovah does not take away gifts! That&#39;s what Satan wants everybody to think!

I think I&#39;ll go kiss my wife!

[Berean]

I take note that both Mt 22:30 and Lu 20:34,35 say those resurrected will be like angels. The King James version says in Lu 20:36 "Neither can they die anymore for they are equal to angels" and the Living Bible phrases Lu 20:34,35,36 this way "Jesus replied, Marriage is for people here on earth, but when those who are counted worthy of being raised from the dead get to heaven, they do not marry. And they never die again, in these respects they are like angels....[/b]

How does the Living Bible come to that conclusion? And "equal to angels" can just as easily be translated as "as the angels", or "like angels". Also, you have to ask yourself who made those translations. The King James Version has long been known as a poor translation, and the Living Bible is a paraphrased version. In both cases, I think the belief that there will only be a heavenly resurrection played a huge part in how those verses were rendered.

[Warren]

Jesus was asked if a woman in this life had seven husbands whose wife would she be in the earthly resurrection. If in fact those resurrected back to life on earth can marry then why didn&#39;t Jesus simply answer by saying that she would be free to marry whomever she wants because death terminates the marriage bond? When asked a question pertaining to the earthly resurrection, why would Jesus give an answer that applies only to the heavenly resurrection?

[Jeshurun]

Jesus was asked if a woman in this life had seven husbands whose wife would she be in the earthly resurrection. If in fact those resurrected back to life on earth can marry then why didn&#39;t Jesus simply answer by saying that she would be free to marry whomever she wants because death terminates the marriage bond? Why would Jesus give an answer that applies only to the heavenly resurrection to a question pertaining to the earthly resurrection?[/b]

Jesus may have been sidestepping the question to avoid a common word trap that had been used successfully in Sadducees&#39; arguments against the resurrection in the past. Or he may have been implying that there would be no marrying in either resurrection. But I have done more research on this. I was mistaken about the earthly resurrection being the common belief among the Pharisees and Sudduccees at the time, it was actually that there would be a heavenly resurrection. So, there was likely no reason for Jesus to talk about an earthly resurrection.

There may be another explanation of the meaning of what Jesus said, notice how the words are laid out in Mark 12:24-27:
²³ They will not toil for nothing, nor will they bring to birth for disturbance; because they are the offspring made up of the blessed ones of Jehovah, and their descendants with them.

Since we don&#39;t have any absolute definitive proof that Jesus was not speaking about both resurrections, the only logical thing to do is use the Bible as a whole and apply common sense. Can we imagine two people in the new system, one being an Armageddon survivor, and the other being a resurrectee, and one has the privilege of childbearing and the other doesn&#39;t??? Would Jehovah do such a thing? Does a person lose out on that gift because they happen to get killed during the Great Tribulation? Aside from missing out on seeing Armageddon, do they have to be punished even further?

[Warren]

Can we imagine two people in the new system, one being an Armageddon survivor, and the other being a resurrectee, and one has the privilege of childbearing and the other doesn&#39;t???[/b]

Well, either resurrectees do not reproduce or we are going to have a birth rate of billions per year during the Millennium.

I suspect that childbearing by Armageddon survivors will have ceased by the time the resurrection occurs, thus we won&#39;t have a "reproducing class" living along side a "non-reproducing class" in the new world.

When Jehovah told Adam and Eve to multiply and fill the earth He knew what the ideal population of the earth should be. Who&#39;s to say that the number of resurrected ones won&#39;t be close to that number? Maybe the reason Jesus said the children of the resurrection don&#39;t marry is because he knew there wouldn&#39;t be room for their offspring. Obviously procreation here on earth wasn&#39;t meant to go on forever. So when does it end? Perhaps Jesus gave us a hint. It ends sometime before the resurrection begins.

[Jeshurun]

Hi Warren

I can understand your thinking, but we have to remember a few things. The resurrection takes place over a thousand year period. No one know what percentage, but not all will be agreeable to Jehovah&#39;s government and will eventually succumb to the second death.

If we take into account the land mass of the earth that it currently wasted, whether it be desert (much of which is man-made, due to the proliferation of the rainforests) or private land or national or state land, the earth can comfortably hold 20 billion people at once.

And as we&#39;ve stated here before, earth is only one planet in one solar system, our sun being only one of hundreds of millions of stars in the Milky Way Galaxy, and that galaxy being only one in hundreds of millions of galaxies. Let&#39;s not assume that our earth is the only place where Jehovah has decided to populate with human life.

As far as not liking the answer Jesus gave, of course we would have to accept it if he were definitive about it, but he wasn&#39;t. Now of course if Jehovah does have it in mind to discontinue procreation, that certainly does not mean by any stretch that he will eliminate marriages. It wouldn&#39;t take much for Jehovah to render all men sterile.

Whatever the case, I respect your views about it and I find it very commendable that you are so dedicated to Jehovah regardless of whatever he might do in the new system.

Lou

[Berean]

I realise that being married will colour your opinion on these matters, but do keep in mind that not being married isn&#39;t a curse. Just look at Matthew 19:10-12:

The disciples said to him: "If such is the situation of a man with his wife, it is not advisable to marry." He said to them: "Not all men make room for the saying, but only those who have the gift. For there are eunuchs that were born such from their mother’s womb, and there are eunuchs that were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs that have made themselves eunuchs on account of the kingdom of the heavens. Let him that can make room for it make room for it."

That&#39;s not to say that marriage is bad, and I can&#39;t say for sure that the marriage arrangement will be done away with, but I don&#39;t expect everyone in Paradise to be married either. As Jesus said, some people can make room for it, and I&#39;m inclined to believe that what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 7:27 would also apply to the new world:

Are you bound to a wife? Stop seeking a release. Are you loosed from a wife? Stop seeking a wife.

The best we can do though, is wait and see, however hard that may be.

[Candace]

When I got married a few years ago the terminology used in our vows said something about being married until death and as long as we both shall live on earth. I thought the part about earth was odd, and wondered why they felt the need to specifically state as long as we are both on earth? It would appear that if I were able to leave the planet I would no longer be married to my husband, or at least my marriage would not be recognized outside of the boundaries of earth. Here&#39;s a copy of the suggested vows:

*** w69 3/15 pp. 174-175 Living Up to Your Decisions ***

5 The vow in the marriage ceremony that is recommended by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society for the man may be worded like this: “I take you to be my wedded wife, to love and to cherish in accordance with the divine law as set forth in the Holy Scriptures for Christian husbands, for as long as we both shall live together on earth according to God’s marital arrangement.” The vow made by the prospective wife states: “I take you to be my wedded husband, to love and to cherish and deeply respect, in accordance with the divine law as set forth in the Holy Scriptures for Christian wives, for as long as we both shall live together on earth according to God’s marital arrangement.”

I speculate that marriage will be an eternal arrangement, even if child-bearing is not. I wouldn&#39;t be surprised if Jehovah suspends child-bearing during all or a portion of the millenial reign. I would not be surprised if after the final test humans were allowed to then explore the universe and begin procreating again.

I think any human resurrected to earth will be allowed to marry, and that the scriptures previously mentioned refer to the heavenly resurrection. I could be wrong, but the arguments for that referring to a heavenly resurrection make sense to me.