Angelic Repentance?

[Gabriel]

The scriptures speak of the annointed judging both men and angels. What does this mean. I thought the angels were holy and perfect in Jehovahs eyes....well all those that remained faithful after satans rebelion, so its highly unlikey that they will ever turn against Jehovah. However the angels that did rebel against Jehovah will be judged.....so does this mean that there is an oppertunity for angelic repentance?

[Shibboleth]

Jesus died for mankind and not angels (bad or good), so repentance can only be achieved, from a human perspective, from Jesus's sacrifice. It does not say in the bible if the angels who disobeyed will be given a second chance. It does say they will be judged. My thoughts are that they will not be given a second chance. Since they were created into perfection they knew what they were doing was wrong.


BTW which scripture made you think of this subject? I would like to do more research.

regards,

Shibboleth

[Gabriel]

Jesus died for mankind and not angels (bad or good), so repentance can only be achieved, from a human perspective, from Jesus's sacrifice. It does not say in the bible if the angels who disobeyed will be given a second chance. It does say they will be judged. My thoughts are that they will not be given a second chance. Since they were created into perfection they knew what they were doing was wrong.


BTW which scripture made you think of this subject? I would like to do more research.

regards,

Shibboleth[/b]

The simple fact that they will be judged indicates to me that they will be given a secound chance. In scripture it speaks of those who recieve a ressurection of life or one of judgement...meaning that what one choses to do with his or her life will be intencly observed and therefore a decidsion will be made as to wither they are worthy of everlasting life or everlasting cutting off. But there must be a observation period first....A judgeing period. If the angels are also to be judged wouldnt this also hold true for them and if so what makes them so worthy of such a luxery...with all the hell that they have unleashed upon mankind? Some say that there are some angels (demons) that repent and no longer wish to go against Jehovahs will and demonstrate that by refraining from further ingagement in human affairs. SO in a since they sit on the side lines crossing fingers and toes ( if they have fingers and toes) hopeing that Jehovah's mercy will extend to them also.

[Kenneth]

the angels that did rebel against Jehovah will be judged.....so does this mean that there is an oppertunity for angelic repentance?[/b]

Jesus gave his perfect human life for a sinful mankind. If the angles were to be given a second chance who would have given their life for them to receive forgiveness.




Kenneth

[Shibboleth]

<div class='quotemain'>Jesus died for mankind and not angels (bad or good), so repentance can only be achieved, from a human perspective, from Jesus&#39;s sacrifice. It does not say in the bible if the angels who disobeyed will be given a second chance. It does say they will be judged. My thoughts are that they will not be given a second chance. Since they were created into perfection they knew what they were doing was wrong.


BTW which scripture made you think of this subject? I would like to do more research.

regards,

Shibboleth[/b]

The simple fact that they will be judged indicates to me that they will be given a secound chance. In scripture it speaks of those who recieve a ressurection of life or one of judgement...meaning that what one choses to do with his or her life will be intencly observed and therefore a decidsion will be made as to wither they are worthy of everlasting life or everlasting cutting off. But there must be a observation period first....A judgeing period. If the angels are also to be judged wouldnt this also hold true for them and if so what makes them so worthy of such a luxery...with all the hell that they have unleashed upon mankind? Some say that there are some angels (demons) that repent and no longer wish to go against Jehovahs will and demonstrate that by refraining from further ingagement in human affairs. SO in a since they sit on the side lines crossing fingers and toes ( if they have fingers and toes) hopeing that Jehovah&#39;s mercy will extend to them also.
[/b][/quote]

When someone does wrong in our imperfect society they are not immediately hanged. They are judged for their wrongs and then sentenced. We know what the sentencing is for the disobedient angels. As far as the disobedient angels are concerned we really shouldn&#39;t worry if they are accepted back or destroyed. It&#39;s up to Jehovah in the end (through Jesus and his new government). We know that he will be just. In fact it will be a perfect justice.

[juffowup]

the angels that did rebel against Jehovah will be judged.....so does this mean that there is an oppertunity for angelic repentance?[/b]

Jesus gave his perfect human life for a sinful mankind. If the angles were to be given a second chance who would have given their life for them to receive forgiveness.
Kenneth
[/b]

Well, no Angel has yet died, nor given birth to progeny that would have inherited sinfulness and thus be in need of third party redemption. If this is correct, then what would stop a demon from seeking forgiveness on their own basis, between them and their Father?

I think its pretty clear that not many would take advantage of it even if it were available, because they think they are right and thus wouldn&#39;t be repentant in any case. I wonder if they are so deluded that they think they can win, somehow?

Many times I have also wondered what would have happened if Adam and Eve had just owned up and shown repentance for what they did. Would Jehovah have forgiven them? Or, being perfect, and not having the temptation of a sinful nature to deal with, is any act of disloyalty be a death sentance? I wouldn&#39;t think so, which is why I think it would be possible, if not probable, that a demon could beg forgiveness and regain his standing with his Father.

[stayawake]

IMHO
In the beginning God created the heavens and earth, which could have been trillions or more years ago.Our minds cannot even grasp that demention of time, as He always was and always will be.
We just know the history of the preperation of the earth to house humans.
The angels watched this wonderful scene of Jehovah preparing the earth, and appluded with JOY, as each orderly step was taken.
Since their creation they were always in the presence of Jehovah and his firstborn.
It wassn&#39;t until the seventh created day that some decided they wanted more.
We are already in the 6000th year of that seventh day and there certainly has been no sign of repentence, they have gone from bad to worse
.Knowing there would be no change for the better ,they have been in the bonds of darkness, no spiritual light from Jah anymore.
They unlike Jesus and the future rulers in heaven, do not have immortality.
Their life expectency was everlasting life.
Considering how long they have already lived, that alone should prove that Jah is a loving Father,
love stayawake!!

[Gabriel]

I think its pretty clear that not many would take advantage of it even if it were available, because they think they are right and thus wouldn&#39;t be repentant in any case. I wonder if they are so deluded that they think they can win, somehow?[/b]

Thats what comes to my mind! what in the world gives them the idea that they are smarter and more strategic than Jehovah? I mean they watched him use fear inspiring power as he created the elements and brought the earth into existance. we in our small little minds cant even imagine the awesome power that Jehovah employed to bring about the universe. Although the angels are a little higher than we are surely they were in unspeakable awe as they watched their father worked.

So what could have convined them that they could win this? Its the equivelant of me telling myself that I can change into whatever shape or animal that I wanted to. Thats the reason why I dont understand why there would be a time of judging or observation for them. this had to be a delibrate act of insanity. oh yeah, I think I read somewhere that angels are absalute creatures.Meaning that they dont entertain themselves with "what if" questions like we do but sees things as they are (Reminds me of "Spock" on Star Trek) Therefore when they make a decision/choice, they stick with it. with that being the case they should have seen the stupidity of the act of rebelion and the concequences that would come with it.

[Berean]

I think the judging in 1 Corinthians 6:3 refers either to throwing the fallen angels into the lake of fire, or perhaps, as one meaning of the word judge goes, to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment&#39;.</span></span>

[Sketch]

Well, if they are NOT to be judged, why did Jehovah "incarcerate" a few when the created the nephilim?? if there was no chance at redemption, why not end them there and then? in today&#39;s world, by today&#39;s logic, a 20 year prison term followed by execution is considered cruel... thats why SOME convicts drop their appeals... Just my thought... I can&#39;t fathom - in my human mentality - not giving someone another chance - after i&#39;ve calmed down of course... which may take a LONG time, but even still...

[Berean]

I can&#39;t fathom - in my human mentality - not giving someone another chance[/b]
Because angels are not humans. Even some humans will not be given a second chance - just think of Adam and Eve - and the angels were created as perfect beings, with the immense privilege of acting as messengers and soldiers for the only true God, always being in his presence. If one is in such a position and willing to forfeit that for a few moments of pleasure, like the nephilim did, you deserve every bit of your punishment.

[Jeshurun]

I myself also having a feeble human mind, cannot comprehend an angel, having so much wisdom and power, having been in and out of Jehovah&#39;s presence for probably millions of years, going against him. I ain&#39;t no judge of angels, but sorry, they just shouldn&#39;t be trusted again. Hope I&#39;m not sinning by saying that! Why in the heavens would anyone want to rebel against Jehovah, anyway? Well that&#39;s a stupid question, almost everyone on earth does....How sad the human race is. It&#39;s called "ingratitude".

[Sketch]

Because angels are not humans. Even some humans will not be given a second chance - just think of Adam and Eve - and the angels were created as perfect beings, with the immense privilege of acting as messengers and soldiers for the only true God, always being in his presence. If one is in such a position and willing to forfeit that for a few moments of pleasure, like the nephilim did, you deserve every bit of your punishment.[/b]

True, Angels are NOT human, however, they are STILL a part of creation. Now, no one on this board, or even on the planet can say with any degree of certainty wether some of the fallen angels will or will NOT be given a second chance... now as far as the nephilim go, I wasn&#39;t really talking about them. thats a different subject... its hard enough talking about either perfect or imperfect without bringing in the hybrids... oy VAY!

Jehovah has proven (at least in the old covenant) that he was a quick and final judge... so if the Israelites were killed off for worshipping the golden calf (and other things), why not destroy the nephilim&#39;s angelic fathers?? they are still in their deep, dark hole...

[Sketch]

I ain&#39;t no judge of angels, but sorry, they just shouldn&#39;t be trusted again. Hope I&#39;m not sinning by saying that! Why in the heavens would anyone want to rebel against Jehovah, anyway? Well that&#39;s a stupid question, almost everyone on earth does....How sad the human race is. It&#39;s called "ingratitude".[/b]

A guy I work with called out his &#39;old man&#39; when he was 17... he lost fully HALF of his teeth, and got a broken jaw for that arrogant decision... now, thats something that happens quite often... and even though we are imperfect, you would think that history would tell us NOT to call out our dad when we&#39;re 17.... I know for a fact that my dad could still take me out and he&#39;s 64.

Precidence has nothing to do with our present decisions. Things like this are GENERALLY done on impulse, a momentary lapse of self control. Angels, we know have self control and independent thought, so I think its fully possible that some young "punk" thought he needed to call out his dad.... now, of course even for us there is a line to be drawn that you DO NOT CROSS... and I&#39;m sure satan and plenty of his followers have crossed that line... but that doesn&#39;t mean that EVERYone has... If a perfect human had a moment of weakness, why not an angel? why is it so hard to comprehend Jehovah forgiving an angel?

[watchman]

The Devil and the rest of the demons are not going to be judged in the future. They have already been judged -- and condemned to eternal death. Satan was judged by Jehovah in the Garden of Eden and the rest of the demons were judged at the Deluge.

[Berean]

True, Angels are NOT human, however, they are STILL a part of creation. Now, no one on this board, or even on the planet can say with any degree of certainty wether some of the fallen angels will or will NOT be given a second chance... now as far as the nephilim go, I wasn&#39;t really talking about them. thats a different subject... its hard enough talking about either perfect or imperfect without bringing in the hybrids... oy VAY![/b]

Uh, yes, I actually meant the fallen angels the nephilim came out of. My mistake, sorry. :icon_redface:

But anyway, I do believe those fallen angels will not be given a second chance. It&#39;s interesting to note that the angels can&#39;t even be resurrected, because they were created as immortal beings. Perhaps this is the key here: that they, like Adam and Eve, abused their immortal life, and Jehovah cannot give you something that you already had, but refused.

[Shibboleth]

<div class='quotemain'>True, Angels are NOT human, however, they are STILL a part of creation. Now, no one on this board, or even on the planet can say with any degree of certainty wether some of the fallen angels will or will NOT be given a second chance... now as far as the nephilim go, I wasn&#39;t really talking about them. thats a different subject... its hard enough talking about either perfect or imperfect without bringing in the hybrids... oy VAY![/b]

Uh, yes, I actually meant the fallen angels the nephilim came out of. My mistake, sorry. :icon_redface:

But anyway, I do believe those fallen angels will not be given a second chance. It&#39;s interesting to note that the angels can&#39;t even be resurrected, because they were created as immortal beings. Perhaps this is the key here: that they, like Adam and Eve, abused their immortal life, and Jehovah cannot give you something that you already had, but refused.
[/b][/quote]


I think you may be confused on the word imortal. The 144,000 and Jesus are the only ones that are granted imortality. The rest all live forever. If you are imortal you cannot die. Adam and Eve and Satan and his angels are not imortal. If they were then they would not be able to die. in Adam and Eve&#39;s case they already have died.

[Berean]

Well, the intention was that they would indeed live forever, and when Jehovah created the angels, as well as Adam and Eve, he created them as immortal beings, since death was a concept that simply did not exist at all then.

[Shibboleth]

Well, the intention was that they would indeed live forever, and when Jehovah created the angels, as well as Adam and Eve, he created them as immortal beings, since death was a concept that simply did not exist at all then.[/b]


They were created to live forever. Living forever and being immortal are two different things. Jehovah told Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree or they would die. You don&#39;t tell immortal beings that they will die since they cannot die if you are immortal. That is why Jehovah did not create the angels or humans with immortality. It was like a clause that if they did screw up they would have to pay the price. If they were immortal then if they screwed up they wouldn&#39;t have to pay a price. Jehovah used His Divine wisdom on that issue. Jesus was not an immortal being untill after he died for our sins and he becomes king along with the 144000. Being immortal is a gift and privilege from Jehovah.

In the new system we will have the chance to live forever, but we will not be immortal.

[Berean]

I think it&#39;s just that I interpret the idea of death differently (and quite possibly wrongly). I use Romans 5:12 as a reference: That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned. I conclude from this that death did not exist at one point, at least in the world, but it was introduced when Adam and Eve sinned. Of course that&#39;s not to say that Jehovah isn&#39;t able to destroy the fallen angels, but I think Jehovah had intended for them to never die, that is until Satan revolted and dragged man with him. In the same way, when death will be done away with, it will no longer rule as king, meaning that nobody would die, so everybody will be immortal - but not indestructible. I don&#39;t want to turn this into an argument about semantics, but I thought I&#39;d just explain what I meant, even though my thoughts on the matter seem to be more confusing than clarifying. :Yahoo_33:

[Gabriel]

The Devil and the rest of the demons are not going to be judged in the future. They have already been judged -- and condemned to eternal death. Satan was judged by Jehovah in the Garden of Eden and the rest of the demons were judged at the Deluge.[/b]

If thats the case then whats the point in keeping them in a dark hole for so long? Why wouldnt Jehovah just go ahead and zap&#39;em? Not to question Jehovah or anything,but my enquireing mind just wants to know. And why were some demons imprisoned and others were not?

[Shibboleth]

I know what you mean Berean and not arguing with you. Just explaining that there is a difference between being immortal and living forever.

You should do some research on the subject cause I think you are very interested in it and it&#39;s meaning.

I have done research on this and I know watchman has to and I know he would also tell you that they mean two different things.




1 Tim. 6

13 (http://) In the sight of God, who preserves all things alive, and of Christ Jesus, who as a witness made the fine public declaration before Pontius Pilate, I give you orders 14 (http://) that you observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 (http://) This [manifestation] the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times, [he] the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, 16 (http://) the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. To him be honor and might everlasting. Amen.[/b]

[Jeshurun]

If thats the case then whats the point in keeping them in a dark hole for so long? Why wouldnt Jehovah just go ahead and zap&#39;em? Not to question Jehovah or anything,but my enquireing mind just wants to know. And why were some demons imprisoned and others were not?[/b]

Hi Littlevalue

How&#39;s your twin brother?

The disobedient angels were cast into a certain "state" called Tartarus where they were restricted from ever materializing again. This is completely different from the abyss. Those in the abyss have to stay in a state of darkness, some realm where Jehovah&#39;s light does not reach them. They must wait in that state for a thousand years, after which they will have to be unleashed on the earth one final time as a test for all those resurrected and all those alive on the earth, when Jesus finally hands the Kingdom back over to Jehovah.

Since the Bible has so little detail about that final test, Jehovah probably has lots of new stuff for us during the thousand year reign to prepare for that final attack.

The Watchtower has a fine explanation of Tartarus, from the "Insight" book:


<div align="center">TARTARUS</div>
<div align="left">(Tar´ta·rus).</div>
<div align="left">A prisonlike, abased condition into which God cast disobedient angels in Noah&#39;s day.</div>
<div align="left">This word is found but once in the inspired Scriptures, at 2 Peter 2:4. The apostle writes: "God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tartarus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment." The expression "throwing them into Tartarus" is from the Greek verb tar·ta·ro´o and so includes within itself the word "Tartarus."</div>
<div align="left">A parallel text is found at Jude 6: "And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day." Showing when it was that these angels "forsook their own proper dwelling place," Peter speaks of "the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah&#39;s days, while the ark was being constructed." (1Pe 3:19, 20) This directly links the matter to the account at Genesis 6:1-4 concerning "the sons of the true God" who abandoned their heavenly abode to cohabit with women in pre-Flood times and produced children by them, such offspring being designated as Nephilim.—See NEPHILIM; SON(S) OF GOD.</div>
<div align="left">From these texts it is evident that Tartarus is a condition rather than a particular location, inasmuch as Peter, on the one hand, speaks of these disobedient spirits as being in "pits of dense darkness," while Paul speaks of them as being in "heavenly places" from which they exercise a rule of darkness as wicked spirit forces. (2Pe 2:4; Eph 6:10-12) The dense darkness similarly is not literally a lack of light but results from their being cut off from illumination by God as renegades and outcasts from his family, with only a dark outlook as to their eternal destiny.</div>
<div align="left">Tartarus is, therefore, not the same as the Hebrew Sheol or the Greek Hades, both of which refer to the common earthly grave of mankind. This is evident from the fact that, while the apostle Peter shows that Jesus Christ preached to these "spirits in prison," he also shows that Jesus did so, not during the three days while buried in Hades (Sheol), but after his resurrection out of Hades.—1Pe 3:18-20.</div>
<div align="left">Likewise the abased condition represented by Tartarus should not be confused with "the abyss" into which Satan and his demons are eventually to be cast for the thousand years of Christ&#39;s rule. (Re 20:1-3) Apparently the disobedient angels were cast into Tartarus in "Noah&#39;s days" (1Pe 3:20), but some 2,000 years later we find them entreating Jesus "not to order them to go away into the abyss."—Lu 8:26-31; see ABYSS.</div>
<div align="left">The word "Tartarus" is also used in pre-Christian heathen mythologies. In Homer&#39;s Iliad this mythological Tartarus is represented as an underground prison &#39;as far below Hades as earth is below heaven.&#39; In it were imprisoned the lesser gods, Cronus and the other Titan spirits. As we have seen, the Tartarus of the Bible is not a place but a condition and, therefore, is not the same as this Tartarus of Greek mythology. However, it is worth noting that the mythological Tartarus was presented not as a place for humans but as a place for superhuman creatures. So, in that regard there is a similarity, since the Scriptural Tartarus is clearly not for the detention of human souls (compare Mt 11:23) but is only for wicked superhuman spirits who are rebels against God.</div>
<div align="left">The condition of utter debasement represented by Tartarus is a precursor of the abyssing that Satan and his demons are to experience prior to the start of the Thousand Year Reign of Christ. This, in turn, is to be followed after the end of the thousand years by their utter destruction in "the second death."—Mt 25:41; Re 20:1-3, 7-10, 14.</div>

[Berean]

I know what you mean Berean and not arguing with you. Just explaining that there is a difference between being immortal and living forever.

You should do some research on the subject cause I think you are very interested in it and it&#39;s meaning.

I have done research on this and I know watchman has to and I know he would also tell you that they mean two different things.




1 Tim. 6

13 (http://) In the sight of God, who preserves all things alive, and of Christ Jesus, who as a witness made the fine public declaration before Pontius Pilate, I give you orders 14 (http://) that you observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 (http://) This [manifestation] the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times, [he] the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, 16 (http://) the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. To him be honor and might everlasting. Amen.[/b]




[/b]

Yeah, I know it&#39;s not your intention to argue with me. :) The problem I have is that sometimes I first start thinking about something, and when it sounds logical to me, I think to myself, well, that must be it then! Next subject. Only after that it is that I often come to another conclusion, based on a text I just happen to read shortly afterwards (which is probably not so much a coincidence as it is Jehovah correcting me through His Word), like what just happened here when you showed me that text in Paul&#39;s first letter to Timothy. I&#39;ve always loved that particular scripture, but it didn&#39;t come into my mind in connection with this matter. It seems I have to adjust my understanding of the word &#39;immortality&#39; a bit, to be in line with how God wants us to understand it. Thanks for helping me out there, brother! :)

[Sketch]

The Devil and the rest of the demons are not going to be judged in the future. They have already been judged -- and condemned to eternal death. Satan was judged by Jehovah in the Garden of Eden and the rest of the demons were judged at the Deluge.[/b]

This also assumes that no other angels "fell" after the flood... and we have no way of knowing that. Has Jehovah created more? have any tried to reprent? in the end, it does not matter what we think, and the bible simply states that all who side with Satan in the end will end up in the lake o&#39; fire. the details in between are between Jehovah and the "angels".

I have enough issues to work on here in my life to worry about the lives of angels...

[Shibboleth]

<div class='quotemain'>The Devil and the rest of the demons are not going to be judged in the future. They have already been judged -- and condemned to eternal death. Satan was judged by Jehovah in the Garden of Eden and the rest of the demons were judged at the Deluge.[/b]

This also assumes that no other angels "fell" after the flood... and we have no way of knowing that. Has Jehovah created more? have any tried to reprent? in the end, it does not matter what we think, and the bible simply states that all who side with Satan in the end will end up in the lake o&#39; fire. the details in between are between Jehovah and the "angels".

I have enough issues to work on here in my life to worry about the lives of angels...
[/b][/quote]

I do not think Jehovah has created more angels. We are in fact living in His 7th day of rest. So He would not be creating anything at this time.

It doesn&#39;t meant that he wouldn&#39;t create more at a later date.

I personally believe that other angels fell after the flood, but we do not know for certain as you pointed out.


To Berean : hey man, glad I could help. I know that those two words do get confusing, but we should try and learn how to use them in the proper context. :applaudit: