Brother Russell And Beyond

[Eli's Foe]

The posting regarding Jesse Hemery was very interesting and led me down a (to me) new avenue. In particular the defence of Charles Taze Russell and what happened after his death posted by the Associated Bible students. Although they dont touch on his fascination with pyramidology, they do offer a number of defences against other allegations made against him, in particular the links with freemasons and the apparent use of masonic symbolism.
What is clear from wikipedia and the links it provides, is that there was a major schism after his death. In particular the removal of directors of the corporation, the reinterpretation of teachings and the legal wrangles arising from the discarding of Bro. Russells wishes by Rutherford led to a wholesale stumbling of the original bible students. The aforesaid Jesse Hemery appears to have held on only by virtue of a peculiarity of his legal agreement with the society until he was finally disfellowshipped (for what may or may not have been good reasons).
Frankly, as I try to make sense of things in my own head, this revelation is of some comfort. The discussions of the Russell Illiuminati bloodline and other discussions which cast significant doubt over the origins of the IBSA do little to convince me that Jehovah would have seen any reason to confer his favour on the people we now know as Jehovah's Witnesses or on those who claim to be annointed. In which case, why would we persist in adhering to the notion that somehow they are still as a group, the people to whom many of the future prophesies relate?
However, if as seems to be the case (and I think, from reading what Watchman writes) Russell had rather misguided fascinations with the pyramids etc but was essentially seeking the truth, along with other like-minded bible students, we begin to see how Jehovah did bless these initial efforts. It also seems likely that our attentions should be more properly focussed on the ruthless changes introduced by Rutherford and those that followed, in leaving the path of truth and who introduced doctrinal views, any dissention against which, could not be tolerated. It seems to me therefore that the greater apostasy began after the First World War reaching the crescendo we now see being manifested in recent times (with worse to come).
In short, I think we have to believe in something intrinsically good in the early Bible students or there is no foundation on which to base our hope that we have "the truth".
What do thers think, have I missed something?
EF

[Molly]

With regard to Russell and the pyramidology, I think that he is due a little slack on this issue. The 1880's were a time of serious pursuits into the antiquities and the whole world at the time was absorbed in it, not just Russell. There were a lot of discoveries at the Valley of the Kings and Schlieman did a lot of work at Troy. The discoveries from these were essentially the rage at the time. It is no surprise that Russell was interested too. Perhaps he got a bit carried away but he wasn't alone.

Molly

[Jeshurun]

I'm seeing a parallel between the whole IBSA to JW to apostasy story of the WTBTS, and the 16th chapter of Ezekiel. Here Jehovah is saying that Jerusalem's origins were from the land of the Canaanites, her father being an Amorite and her mother a Hittite. From "kicking around in her blood" (maybe the 1914 timeframe) she becomes a beautifully adorned wife to Jehovah before the eyes of all the nations. From there she unfortunately becomes puffed up from her own beauty and becomes an adulteress, whereas at one time she scolded her spiritual sisters for adultery against God (Christendom), she then becomes a worse prostitute than they were, even making them look "righteous". I think that this scripture proves that Jehovah's favor can come to be upon an imperfect organization with unholy roots;

And the word of Jehovah came further to me, saying: ² "Son of man, make known to Jerusalem her detestable things. ³ And you must say, &#39;This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said to Jerusalem: <span style="color:#ff0000">"Your origin and your birth were from the land of the Ca´naan·ite. Your father was the Am´or·ite, and your mother was a Hit´tite. ⁴ And as regards your birth, on the day of your being born your navel string had not been cut, and in water you had not been washed for cleansing, and with salt you had not at all been rubbed, and by no means had you been swaddled. ⁵ No eye felt sorry for you to do for you one of these things in compassion upon you, but you were thrown upon the surface of the field because there was an abhorring of your soul in the day of your being born.</div>
^{<div align="left">6} "&#39;"And I came passing along by you and got to see you kicking about in your blood, and I proceeded to say to you in your blood, &#39;Keep living!&#39; yes, to say to you in your blood, &#39;Keep living!&#39; ⁷ A very big multitude like the sprouting of the field is what I made you so that you would grow big and become great and come in with the finest ornament. The two breasts themselves were firmly developed, and your own hair grew luxuriantly, when you had been naked and nude."&#39;</div>
^{<div align="left">8} "&#39;And I came passing along by you and got to see you, and, look! your time was the time for love&#39;s expressions. So I proceeded to spread my skirt over you and to cover your nudeness and to make a sworn statement to you and enter into a covenant with you,&#39; is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, &#39;and so you became mine. ⁹ Furthermore, I washed you with water and rinsed away your blood from off you and greased you with oil. ¹⁰ And I went on to clothe you with an embroidered garment and to shoe you with sealskin and to wrap you in fine linen and to cover you with costly material. ¹¹ And I went on to deck you with ornaments and to put bracelets upon your hands and a necklace about your throat. ¹² Furthermore, I put a nose ring in your nostril and earrings on your ears and a beautiful crown on your head. ¹³ And you kept decking yourself with gold and silver, and your attire was fine linen and costly material and an embroidered garment. Fine flour and honey and oil were what you ate, and you grew to be very, very pretty, and gradually you became fit for royal position.&#39;"</div>
^{<div align="left">14} "&#39;And for you a name began to go forth among the nations because of your prettiness, for it was perfect because of my splendor that I placed upon you,&#39; is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah."</div>
^{<div align="left">} ²² And in all your detestable things and your acts of prostitution you did not remember the days of your youth when you happened to be naked and nude; kicking about in your blood you happened to be. ²³ So it came about after all your badness ("woe, woe to you," is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah) ²⁴ that you went building for yourself a mound and making for yourself a height in every public square. ²⁵ At every head of the way you built your height and you began to make your prettiness something detestable and sprawl out your feet to every passerby and multiply your acts of prostitution. ²⁶ And you went prostituting yourself to the sons of Egypt, your neighbors great of flesh, and you continued making your prostitution abound in order to offend me. ²⁷ And, look! I shall certainly stretch out my hand against you and I shall diminish your allowance and give you to the soul[ful desire] of the women hating you, the daughters of the Phi·lis´tines, the women humiliated on account of your way as regards loose conduct.</div>
^{<div align="left">28} "&#39;And you went on to prostitute yourself to the sons of As·syr´i·a because there was no satisfying of you, and you kept prostituting yourself with them and also did not get satisfaction. ²⁹ So you kept making your prostitution abound toward the land of Ca´naan, toward the Chal·de´ans; and even in this you did not get satisfaction. </div>
<div align="left">⁴³ "&#39;For the reason that you did not remember the days of your youth and you would cause me agitation because of all these things, even here I also, for my part, will put your own way upon [your] very head,&#39; is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, &#39;and you will certainly not carry on any loose conduct alongside all your detestable things.</div>
^{<div align="left">44} "&#39;Look! Everyone using a proverb against you will use the proverb, saying: "Like mother is her daughter!" ⁴⁵ You are the daughter of your mother, one abhorring her husband and her sons. And you are the sister of your sisters, who abhorred their husbands and their sons. The mother of YOU women was a Hit´tite, and YOUR father was an Am´or·ite.&#39;"</div>
^{<div align="left">46} "&#39;And your older sister is Sa·mar´i·a herself with her dependent towns, who is dwelling on your left, and your sister younger than you, who is dwelling on your right, is Sod´om with her dependent towns. ⁴⁷ And it was not in their ways that you walked, nor according to their detestable things that you did. In a very little while you even began to act more ruinously than they did in all your ways. ⁴⁸ As I am alive,&#39; is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, &#39;Sod´om your sister, she with her dependent towns, has not done according to what you did, you and your dependent towns. ⁴⁹ Look! This is what proved to be the error of Sod´om your sister: Pride, sufficiency of bread and the carefreeness of keeping undisturbed were what happened to belong to her and her dependent towns, and the hand of the afflicted one and the poor one she did not strengthen. ⁵⁰ And they continued to be haughty and to carry on a detestable thing before me, and I finally removed them, just as I saw [fit].</div>
^{<div align="left">51} "&#39;And as for Sa·mar´i·a, she has not sinned even up to half of your sins, but you kept making your detestable things abound more than they did, so that you made your sisters appear righteous because of all your detestable things that you carried on. ⁵² You also, bear your humiliation when you must argue in favor of your sisters. Because of your sins in which you acted more detestably than they did, they are more righteous than you. And you also, be ashamed and bear your humiliation in that you make your sisters appear righteous.&#39;</div>
^{<div align="left">59} "For this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, &#39;I also must do with you just as you have done, because you despised the oath in breaking [my] covenant. ⁶⁰ And I, I myself, must remember my covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I must establish for you an indefinitely lasting covenant. [b]⁶¹ And you will certainly remember your ways and feel humiliated when you receive your sisters, the ones older than you as well as the ones younger than you, and I shall certainly give them to you as daughters, but not owing to your covenant.&#39;</div>
⁶² "&#39;And I, I myself, will establish my covenant with you; and you will have to know that I am Jehovah, ⁶³ in order that you may remember and actually be ashamed and you may no more come to have any reason to open [your] mouth because of your humiliation, when I make an atonement for you for all that you have done,&#39; is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah."

</span>

[olrono]

With regard to Russell and the pyramidology, I think that he is due a little slack on this issue. The 1880&#39;s were a time of serious pursuits into the antiquities and the whole world at the time was absorbed in it, not just Russell. There were a lot of discoveries at the Valley of the Kings and Schlieman did a lot of work at Troy. The discoveries from these were essentially the rage at the time. It is no surprise that Russell was interested too. Perhaps he got a bit carried away but he wasn&#39;t alone.

Molly[/b]

If you read in the earliest bound volumes of the WT , you will find articles on C.T. Russell’s account of him designing and construction of the pyramid where his grave marker looks facing the horizon. Then there are the names of the brethren who are buried there listed in three groups of six, as in 666 on this pyramid. Remember, the literature showed “York Rite” regalia, the York Rite being the so called “Christian” rite. I am sure CTR did not believe he worshiped Satan, they wouldn’t believe Lucifer is Satan anyway, as Billy Grahm is expected to be one too!

[Berean]

With regard to Russell and the pyramidology, I think that he is due a little slack on this issue. The 1880&#39;s were a time of serious pursuits into the antiquities and the whole world at the time was absorbed in it, not just Russell. There were a lot of discoveries at the Valley of the Kings and Schlieman did a lot of work at Troy. The discoveries from these were essentially the rage at the time. It is no surprise that Russell was interested too. Perhaps he got a bit carried away but he wasn&#39;t alone.

Molly[/b]
I&#39;m not sure if that&#39;s so forgiveable. Of course many people were dabbling in pyramidology, but that&#39;s still no excuse to mix it in with the Christian worship of God. It&#39;s the same with all that New Age stuff that&#39;s popular now - some people will try to mix it with Christian beliefs, but never true Christians. And in the past there were the golden calves. Sure, they were popular and seemingly aided in worshiping God, but Jehovah did not excuse the people worshiping those calves, because they knew very well that what they were doing wasn&#39;t what Jehovah asked of them.

[Molly]

<div class='quotemain'>With regard to Russell and the pyramidology, I think that he is due a little slack on this issue. The 1880&#39;s were a time of serious pursuits into the antiquities and the whole world at the time was absorbed in it, not just Russell. There were a lot of discoveries at the Valley of the Kings and Schlieman did a lot of work at Troy. The discoveries from these were essentially the rage at the time. It is no surprise that Russell was interested too. Perhaps he got a bit carried away but he wasn&#39;t alone.

Molly[/b]
I&#39;m not sure if that&#39;s so forgiveable. Of course many people were dabbling in pyramidology, but that&#39;s still no excuse to mix it in with the Christian worship of God. It&#39;s the same with all that New Age stuff that&#39;s popular now - some people will try to mix it with Christian beliefs, but never true Christians. And in the past there were the golden calves. Sure, they were popular and seemingly aided in worshiping God, but Jehovah did not excuse the people worshiping those calves, because they knew very well that what they were doing wasn&#39;t what Jehovah asked of them.
[/b][/quote]

Good Morning Berean-

No it&#39;s not the same as New Age stuff because the pagan beliefs were already mixed in with the Christian beliefs. He used the cross and celebrated the pagan holidays, etc. The "golden calves" of false worship were already there and everyone at that time mixed the pagan with the truth and never questioned it all. It is no surprise then that Russell combined the pagan in his religion and saw no problem. So, as you say, "some people will try to mix it with Christian beliefs, but never true Christians." Therefore, at that time Russell could not have been a true Christian. Eventually, though, he did manage to uncover some doctrinal truth - and for that we can be appreciative.

He got some things right and he got some things wrong. Nevertheless, it is unfair to look back and say that he should have known better when noone else at that time had recognized the contamination. We should appreciate that he even cared to inspect and correct.

Molly

[Berean]

He got some things right and he got some things wrong. Nevertheless, it is unfair to look back and say that he should have known better when noone else at that time had recognized the contamination. We should appreciate that he even cared to inspect and correct.

Molly[/b]
Yes, that&#39;s true... perhaps I am expecting too much; I had hoped that even in those days there were people who did see that some things don&#39;t mix with belief in God&#39;s Word.

[Dorcas]

Dear Friends,
What an interesting discussion you&#39;re having! When I started studying, the society was using the "Truth Book". As I grew in the Truth, I began to question some of the teachings. The counsel then was to remember the basics you learned --no Trinity, no immortal soul, no burning hell....
In fact, I got caught up in all the little formulas they had, using scriptues from everywhere to try to explain things that had happened or would happen in the future.
My mother always said, "There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!".
Well, we&#39;ve gotten rid of the pyramids, Christman trees, crosses, etc. But are we still under the influence of those who "refuse to see" -- that 1914 doesn&#39;t mark Christ&#39;s parousia, the resurrection did not take place in 1918 ....on and on.... So the blindness still continues. Christ said that his FATHER knew the day and the hour -- no one else. So are the brothers today any less blind than CTR? Are they afraid that if they would admit that they had been wrong again about Christ&#39;s parousia in 1914, there would be a mass exodus from the organization? Personally, I was new in the Truth and misled by the 1975 fiasco.
Our best bet may be to, once again, go back to the basics that Russell discovered and that have set us free from Christendom, read our Bibles diligently, and wait to see how things unfold. Are we serving for a date or did we make a lifetime dedication -- unconditionally? Jehovah will let his servants know when the time is right.
We all would like to have the date, but we all have to wait on Jehovah.
Still waiting (and trying to be patient), still learning to love , Dorcas :MSN Vlinder: