Unwise Alliances

[Steadfast]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

While doing some research one day, I found this information, which seems to apply directly to the relationship that the Watchtower had with the UN as being an abomination in Jehovah's eyes. Can it ever be said that the Watchtower made a mistake?

Quote taken from Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 1, p. 75-77:

Unwise Alliances With Other Nations. Though God's prophets gave strong warnings against the forming of alliances with other nations, in times of danger or under the pressure of ambition the kings of Judah and Israel frequently ignored such warnings. (Isa 30:2-7; Jer 2:16-19, 36, 37; Ho 5:13; 8:8-10; 12:1) The end results were never good, as the following examples show.

King Asa of Judah used the royal treasures to buy King Ben-hadad I of Syria out of a covenant with King Baasha of Israel. (1Ki 15:18-20) As a result of this 'leaning on Syria' instead of on Jehovah, Asa was rebuked by the prophet Hanani with the words: "You have acted foolishly respecting this, for from now on there will exist wars against you." (2Ch 16:7-9) King Ahab of Israel later made a covenant with defeated Ben-hadad II and received similar condemnation from a prophet of God. (1Ki 20:34, 42) Jehoshaphat allied himself with Ahab in an unsuccessful attack against Syria and was thereafter asked by the prophet Jehu: "Is it to the wicked that help is to be given, and is it for those hating Jehovah that you should have love? And for this there is indignation against you from the person of Jehovah." (2Ch 18:2, 3; 19:2) Later Jehoshaphat made a commercial shipbuilding partnership with wicked King Ahaziah of Israel, but prophetic condemnation was fulfilled when the ships were wrecked. (2Ch 20:35-37) Obeying divine counsel, Amaziah of Judah wisely decided against the use of mercenary troops from Israel though it meant a loss of 100 talents of silver ($660,600) paid to them as a fee.—2Ch 25:6-10.

In the eighth century B.C.E. as Assyria began to rise as a dominant world power, its menacing shadow drove lesser kingdoms into many alliances and conspiracies. (Compare Isa 8:9-13.) A buildup of new weapons of warfare among the nations also caused increased fear. (Compare 2Ch 26:14, 15.) Menahem of Israel bribed the attacking Pul (Tiglath-pileser III) of Assyria. (2Ki 15:17-20) Rezin of Syria and Pekah of Israel formed a conspiratorial alliance against Ahaz of Judah, who, in turn, used the royal treasures and those from the temple to buy protection from Assyrian Tiglath-pileser III, resulting in the fall of Syrian Damascus. (2Ki 16:5-9; 2Ch 28:16) Hoshea of Israel made a conspiratorial alliance with King So of Egypt in the false hope of throwing off the Assyrian yoke imposed by Shalmaneser V, with the consequent fall of Israel in 740 B.C.E. (2Ki 17:3-6) Faithful Hezekiah of Judah, however, though falsely accused of trusting in Egypt, relied solely on Jehovah and was saved from the Assyrian Sennacherib's attack.—2Ki 18:19-22, 32-35; 19:14-19, 28, 32-36; compare Isa 31:1-3.

In its closing years, the kingdom of Judah fluctuated between Egypt and Babylon, "prostituting" itself to both powers. (Eze 16:26-29; 23:14) It came under the dominance of Egypt during Jehoiakim's reign (2Ki 23:34) but was soon made subject to Babylon. (2Ki 24:1, 7, 12-17) The last king, Zedekiah, made a futile attempt to free Judah from Babylon by a vain alliance with Egypt. Destruction of Jerusalem resulted. (2Ki 24:20; Eze 17:1-15) They had failed to accept Isaiah's inspired advice: "By coming back and resting you people will be saved. Your mightiness will prove to be simply in keeping undisturbed and in trustfulness."—Isa 30:15-17.

During the Maccabean period many treaties and alliances were made with the Syrians and the Romans for political advantage, but freedom from bondage did not result for Israel. In a later period the religious Sadducees were especially prominent in favoring political collaboration as a means toward ultimate national independence. Neither they nor the Pharisees accepted the Kingdom message proclaimed by Christ Jesus but allied themselves with Rome, declaring: "We have no king but Caesar." (Joh 19:12-15) Their religiopolitical alliance with Rome, however, ended in the disastrous destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C.E.—Lu 19:41-44; 21:20-24.

Political and religious alliances are indicated in the symbolisms of Revelation 17:1, 2, 10-18; 18:3. (Compare Jas 4:1-4.) Thus, throughout the Scriptural record the principle stated by Paul is stressed: "Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? . . . Get out from among them, and separate yourselves."—2Co 6:14-17.

Love, :Love:

Steadfast

[olrono]

I was hoping that every one here knew this already, but it is great to see it in print isn’t it!? Thank you!

[Olm]

that was good to read. yes the watchtower is leaning or was leaning on the UN for whatever purpose they say. but as the scriptures show, we should not go to other nations for help but rely on Jehovah.

[DoubtingThomas]

Yeah ... but what if I need a library card? Can't I have an unholy alliance with the nations or governements of this system then? (tongue planted firmly in cheek)

[Jeshurun]

Good Morning Everyone

I came across this interesting letter on another site showing the Watchtower putting yet another spin on their NGO relationships. Since I feel that the reasons given in this letter are in direct contrast to the "Insight" article quoted below, I thought you might be interested in reading it.



Quote taken from Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 1, p. 75-77:

Unwise Alliances With Other Nations. Though God's prophets gave strong warnings against the forming of alliances with other nations, in times of danger or under the pressure of ambition the kings of Judah and Israel frequently ignored such warnings. (Isa 30:2-7; Jer 2:16-19, 36, 37; Ho 5:13; 8:8-10; 12:1) The end results were never good, as the following examples show.[/b]

Association of Jehovas Witnesses
Estoril – Portugal

SCC 2001 Oct., 8th

Dear Brother:

Some days ago we received your letter in which you tell how worried
you feel about something you read on an Online brochure of the United Nations, about the WTBTS of New York. So we are glad to provide some commentaries about that matter.

Just at the beginning we want you to know that we appreciate your
feelings about this matter and that you want to see Jehovah's name and the name of his earthly organization clean and holy.

While answering your question we would like to quote something, which is said in that brochure about what it means to be an NGO. In the brochure we can read the following:

"What is an NGO? A non-governmental organization (NGO) is any
non-profit, voluntary citizens' group which is organized on a local,
national or international level. …NGO's perform a variety of services
and humanitarian functions; bring citizen's concerns to Governments.
…Some are organized around specific issues, such as human rights, the environment or health. Their relationship with offices and agencies of the United Nations System differs depending on their goals, their
venue and their mandate."

As mentioned above, the goals of the NGO's registered with the DPI
differ. Some of them are registered as Human Rights Organizations, as
it happens with the WTBTS of NY. (If you take a look, the Society is
listed as an NGO which defends Human Rights). However, that doesn't
mean that it [the Society] has nonbiblical links with the UN. As told
above, the kind of relationship the NGO's have with the offices and
agencies of the UN differ from one organization to another, depending
of their own goals.

So, to make it easy to understand, what happens is that since the
Society wants to defend the rights of our brothers in countries where
their human rights are violated, sending them medical care, food and
other kind of assistance (as it happened in Rwanda and in many other
countries and most recently in Georgia, where our brothers are without the most elementary human rights). For this it is necessary that the Society be registered at the UN as a Human Rights Organization. This is the only way to help our brothers, many times doing this while asking for meetings with highly positioned members of governments, ambassadors and so on. However this does not mean that the Society is in any way involved politically with the UN or giving support to their political decisions. No! Jehovah's people continue to keep itself politically neutral. We are just using a right which was given to us with the goal to –as Paul said- (…)

In biblical times the apostle Paul used his citizenship (a right given
to him by the state without demanding a political involvement in state
affairs) as an argument to get a trial in the highest courts in the
country giving a good testimony that way. (Acts 25:11) In the same way the WTBTS of NY is making use of a position, which the UN gives to several non-governmental organizations without going against his
Christian neutrality. Doing this, the Organization is able to 'defend
and legally establish the good news'- Phil. 1:7.


A similar thing happens, as an example, with the unions. A Christian
could, if he wished so, be associated with a union, which would defend his rights as a worker, and he would pay his fee to the union getting benefits in case that the union would defend his rights if they would be violated. However, even if the Christian could receive certain benefits while being associated with a union, he would not involve himself in the union activities, nor would he accept any position in the union and he would not involve himself in any political activity, which would violate his well, trained biblical conscience. The same rule applies to this matter you asked about. The brothers are just using a right given to them by the UN when they got registered as a NGO defending Human Rights. So they can better assist the interests of our brothers and take care that their voice is heard in the highest levels of governments (as Paul did) without at any time being involved or giving any kind of support to the "beast" of Revelation.

So we appreciate your feelings but you can be assured that the WTBTS of NY is keeping his strict neutrality in political questions, while not getting involved with anything which is non-biblical, nor giving any support to the "beast".

We hope that this information will be helpful for you, brother, and
that it may have cleared everything about this matter which made you feel worry. Without any other issue at this time we close this letter and use the opportunity to send you our Christian love.

Your brothers,

Association of Jehovahs Witnesses

[Gabriel]

As mentioned above, the goals of the NGO's registered with the DPI
differ. Some of them are registered as Human Rights Organizations, as
it happens with the WTBTS of NY. (If you take a look, the Society is
listed as an NGO which defends Human Rights). However, that doesn't
mean that it [the Society] has nonbiblical links with the UN. As told
above, the kind of relationship the NGO's have with the offices and
agencies of the UN differ from one organization to another, depending
of their own goals.

So, to make it easy to understand, what happens is that since the
Society wants to defend the rights of our brothers in countries where
their human rights are violated, sending them medical care, food and
other kind of assistance (as it happened in Rwanda and in many other
countries and most recently in Georgia, where our brothers are without the most elementary human rights). For this it is necessary that the Society be registered at the UN as a Human Rights Organization. This is the only way to help our brothers, many times doing this while asking for meetings with highly positioned members of governments, ambassadors and so on. However this does not mean that the Society is in any way involved politically with the UN or giving support to their political decisions. No! Jehovah's people continue to keep itself politically neutral. We are just using a right which was given to us with the goal to –as Paul said- (…)

In biblical times the apostle Paul used his citizenship (a right given
to him by the state without demanding a political involvement in state
affairs) as an argument to get a trial in the highest courts in the
country giving a good testimony that way. (Acts 25:11) In the same way the WTBTS of NY is making use of a position, which the UN gives to several non-governmental organizations without going against his
Christian neutrality. Doing this, the Organization is able to 'defend
and legally establish the good news'- Phil. 1:7.[/b]

Not wanting to offend any of my Christian family here...but this letter is well written and the Society does have a point. I mean...how else are we to provide and fend for the rights of our brothers and sisters in countries and lands where they dont even have the elemetary rights that we take for granted? If this letter honnestly describes the situation and they ARE NOT or HAVE NEVER supported a political agenda, but merly used their "citizenary rights" to further the good news....well Whats wrong with that?Now before you guys beat me with an ugly stick :stupid: at least count to 10 so I can have a running start.

[Shibboleth]

Littlevalue I am running with you. (I agree with you)

[Molly]

Not wanting to offend any of my Christian family here...but this letter is well written and the Society does have a point. I mean...how else are we to provide and fend for the rights of our brothers and sisters in countries and lands where they dont even have the elemetary rights that we take for granted? If this letter honnestly describes the situation and they ARE NOT or HAVE NEVER supported a political agenda, but merly used their "citizenary rights" to further the good news....well Whats wrong with that?Now before you guys beat me with an ugly stick :stupid: at least count to 10 so I can have a running start.[/b]

Littlevalue-

Relax, noone is after you!!

Still, we do have to consider what the UN Department of Public Information considers the role of the NGO to be. Under the NGO DPI Question and Answer section there is a question which reads:
"What are the responsibilities of NGOs associated with DPI?"

The first sentence of the answer reads: "Since the founding of the United Nations in San Francisco in 1945, NGOs have made valuable contributions to the international community by drawing attention to key issues, promoting initiatives and programmes, disseminating information and mobilizing public opinion in support of the United Nations and its specialized agencies." One of the criteria for NGOs joining is that they "share the principles of the UN Charter." It seems to me that these alone sufficient to refuse to join as an NGO. The many articles in those 10 years certainly would have mobilized public opinion in support of the UN and were of a completely different tone than those which refer to the UN as a wild beast.

If it was all so innocent, then, when "found out," why did they immediately disassociate themselves from the UN?

Yes, the letter is well written and could be quite convincing but it isn't that simple. They dragged us into the mix by expecting us to place the magazines with the public without our knowledge of the situation or our consent - and that is unconscionable.

As for not being able to help the Armenians, or whoever, perhaps it's because the WTS was committing fornication that Jehovah wasn't listening. Certainly Jehovah knows how to make a way out for his servants if they rely on him.

Just my view.

Molly

[Gabriel]

Relax, noone is after you!!

Still, we do have to consider what the UN Department of Public Information considers the role of the NGO to be. Under the NGO DPI Question and Answer section there is a question which reads:
"What are the responsibilities of NGOs associated with DPI?"

The first sentence of the answer reads: "Since the founding of the United Nations in San Francisco in 1945, NGOs have made valuable contributions to the international community by drawing attention to key issues, promoting initiatives and programmes, disseminating information and mobilizing public opinion in support of the United Nations and its specialized agencies." One of the criteria for NGOs joining is that they "share the principles of the UN Charter." It seems to me that these alone sufficient to refuse to join as an NGO. The many articles in those 10 years certainly would have mobilized public opinion in support of the UN and were of a completely different tone than those which refer to the UN as a wild beast.[/b]

whew! Thats good to know. Molly could it be that the Society was not trying to rally people in support of the UN but rather give them a choice?? How? By announcing...."ok...this is what the UN is saying that they are doing and will do for the betterment of all people. Now...this is what God's Kingdom will do for the ENTIRE EARTH. No more wars, crime, injustice,poverty ,sickness, death, ressurcting dead loved ones, Living in peace, Living forever.....LIVING IN PARADISE." In a since they are showing what the UN say they will do....and basicaly how its failed and Showing How God's Kingdom is the only hope for mankind. I dont know molly...I guess it just depends on how you look at at.


If it was all so innocent, then, when "found out," why did they immediately disassociate themselves from the UN?[/b]

Dont know....cant answer that.


Yes, the letter is well written and could be quite convincing but it isn't that simple. They dragged us into the mix by expecting us to place the magazines with the public without our knowledge of the situation or our consent - and that is unconscionable[/b].

Is that really true? Can we honnestly say that thats TRUE? we see the mags before the public does, and are encouraged to ready every single page are we not? If we had stuck with that admonision then we would've known what we were handing to the public and could have acted in a way as to preserve our own concience. We have to be fare about this even if its uncomfortable. We have a responsability too.


As for not being able to help the Armenians, or whoever, perhaps it's because the WTS was committing fornication that Jehovah wasn't listening. Certainly Jehovah knows how to make a way out for his servants if they rely on him.

Just my view.

Molly[/b].

Thanks molly. You have good views at that.

[Jeshurun]

Yes, the letter is well written and could be quite convincing but it isn't that simple. They dragged us into the mix by expecting us to place the magazines with the public without our knowledge of the situation or our consent - and that is unconscionable.[/b]

Molly hit the nail on the head here. All of us will be faced with situations in the future where the threats can be alleviated by compromising. Jehovah recorded those accounts about ancient Israel to prepare us for decisions we will have to make in the future. These actions by the Society are showing no trust in Jehovah to deliver them from hardship. It's clear to me that this is indicative of the faithless decisions by the WT that are coming in the future, when things really get rough.

Evidently they are either counting on the publishers not to read the magazines, the Awake in particular, or if they do read them, what is unconscienable is that they are not making an organization-wide ruckus regarding the constant UN propaganda being dished out by Momma. Considering that, the following statement is just outrageous:

"So we appreciate your feelings but you can be assured that the WTBTS of NY is keeping his strict neutrality in political questions, while not getting involved with anything which is non-biblical, nor giving any support to the 'beast'."

Just my opinion.

[Berean]

Yes, at first it would seem that what is stated in that letter is reasonable, but then I remembered what Molly said about all that UN propaganda the WTS put out, and I started thinking, what possible use could it be to be registered as an NGO with the UN? They say it's because they can't help the brothers and sisters in other countries otherwise, but is this really so? I thought they could just send goods and people to branch offices in other countries? Why would you need the UN for that? I mean, they managed perfectly fine to help out the victims of Katrina, for instance. :Yahoo_33:

[Gabriel]

ok....Just thought that Perhaps things might not be as bad as we imagine them to be. Maybe im just hoping to hard :icon_rolleyes:

[Nambo]

If the letter is the whole story, I too cannot see it being too bad,

but then neither can I see the brothers in Malawi having to except thier dictatorial government card too bad either,

why did the brothers in Malawi have to suffer rape torture and death for something that seems to me to be no differant than the soceity did voluntarily?

[Jeshurun]

Here's a letter from the German Branch to the elders in Germany, showing the contrast in wording and reasoning:

Jehovah's Witnesses

28 January 2002

TO ALL ELDERS

Dear Brothers,

lately repeat inquiries have us to a misleading message over an alleged membership of the society at the United Nations achieved. Naturally, Jehovah's Witnesses and the legal bodies used by them were never a part of the United Nations. Since it however with these questions are possibly likewise confronted, we would like to pass gladly the response on of the head office to such inquiries at you:

"In the year 1991 we could be registered for the purpose with the Department of Public Information (DPI) of the United Nations as Non-Governmental Organization (NGO), in order to be able to employ in the library mechanisms of the United Nations to social and economic problems as well as about health investigations. The library was already used 1991 ago many years long by us; but in this year it was necessary to be able to be registered as NGO.

The registration request, as was submitted it and with us in the documents is present, contained no predicate, which would be to our Christian faith in the contradiction. Additionally NGOs were informed there going from the United Nations that, the association with DPI... "neither [ means] that the NGO becomes part of the system of the United Nations, nor that it and its coworkers of what privileges, immunities or special rights to have."

The criteria for the association as NGO contain nevertheless — at least in their recent version — formulations, which we cannot follow. When we were made attentive to it, to have we our registration immediately withdrawn. We are grateful that we were informed about this circumstances.

We are convinced of the fact that these remarks contribute to meet misleading expressions of Apostates.

Such attempts of the opponents to defame God people and the response-borrowed brothers it already gave in the first century, and they were particularly forecast for the last days (2 Timothy 3:13, 3 John 9,10).

We however make us happy that we can have full confidence in the head of the meeting, Jesus Christ, and the brothers used by it by holy spirit (Ephesians 5:23, Revelation 2:1).

We transmit our cordial greetings, while we place the Kingdom of in front everything with you further.

Your brothers

Religious community of Jehovah's Witnesses in Germany, e. V.

[Gabriel]

Ok....am I missing something here? Again the Society makes mention that it has been using the UN library for quite sometime, Then when requirements was drafted up by the UN for the Watchtower and others to become a NGO....it was then at that time that the society withdrew, and no longer continued use of its library. Im cool with that. Surely there must be something else...a BIGGER PICTURE that im failing to see. Can some one please explain it to me.

[stayawake]

IMHO
Molly sees the Big Picture,This is something the WT does not want anyone to see.
When they were caught by the UK Guardian and exposed to Public disgrace, the WT immediately put out a letter of lies in her defence.
Keep in mind it was NOT over a Library card ,it was over a Personal Pass. This gave the WT the freedom to walk into the UN with out questions.There were no requirements for a library card. They knew this..
To get this pass there were requirments,such as you do for me and I will do for you . In other words there was a compromise on the side of the WT.
In order to get this Pass and become a NGO member, the WT had to praise the works of the UN (mention the good they were doing ) in six publications of the awake a year
NOW heres the PAYOFF


Before they could sign up for another year ,
THe UN would look over at how well the WT did in their behalf. If the UN was pleased with what they read about themself in our Awake mags, for that year ,then they the UN seen that the WT was qualified for another year. This same examination by the UN went on for ten years. THe WT was not blinded to what was going on as they would want us to believe. As they had to reregester every year.
There were 66 mag in all in that ten years. SIX each year.

It gets worse as we move along.

Now keep in mind we all were taught that the scarlet colored beast or the image of the wild beast was Jahs ENEMY.. Still is.
So what we have here is a ten year spiritually adultress affair of the self appointed FDS with Gods enemy.
I believe when she signed up we all became blinded.
How so ??
Because we not only did not pick up the change of tune about the UN in our very own Awake magazines,
BUT the WT made us a sharer in the WT sins by our distributing these magazines. Well ! one might say ,we didnt know.
Let us ask ourselves Why didnt we know.??
This is what happens when we put our spiritual trust in MAN
The WT and the AWake magizines were DEDICATED to Jehovah and His Kingdom., so Satan had to throw some of his Weeds into the picture for them to feel they had to reach out to man for help.
Jahs word warns not to make any Alliance with the nations. Is his Hand so short that He cound not have moved events to his likeing. Did they hold back the Hand of God ?. HOW INSULTING !
This is why the food on Jahs table from the WT is likened to vomit by Watchman.
If you look into the NGO directory you will see the WTBTS listed among the other NGO members which are mostly BTG.
How SICK.!!! They crawled on the back of the beast along with the rest of the religions. I can't see any differance.
Watchman has a essay titled "Strange Bed Fellows" Strange indeed.
Its no wonder why Judgement will start with the house of God. 1Pet 4:17. I feel i Jah is very pleased with us here taking the stand we did, some even being thrown out for knowing what they did, and trying to tell others. Jah will never forget you.
Oh are they (WT) going to be held accountable, the confusion will be alarming.
We are able to see all this, so the shock of her judgement will be expected by us, but not so, for those still in the dark, who have put their trust in man.
love stayawake

[Nambo]

Quite right Stayawake, those Watchtower articles highlighted this wonderfull thing, and that wonderfull thing that the United Nations was doing for mankind, things that we know will only have real success when Jesus does it.

So the very thing that the society claims that makes the UN the disgusting thing, is its claim to be the representation of Gods Kingdom on Earth, and yet the society is publishing the achievments that support thier claim.

[Gabriel]

Oh...Now that makes sence. I knew there had to be some meat somewhere that I just couldnt chew right. Wow..."Climed on the back of the beast" I remember about 8-9 years ago seeing an awake article about the the UN's activities and the society were...what appeared to me ..giving praise to it. Really struck me as odd. But I just shook it off. remembered it just like yesterday. Felt so strange. hum.

[Reader]

What is the difference between an ally and a tool?

A tool is something you pick up to do a specific job. Let's say that you had to move some heavy object from one point to another, say a piano. You may need a dolly, a tool. When you are finished moving the piano, you put the tool away in its place. You are thankful you had the tool, but you feel no obligation to the tool. You do not owe the tool anything in the form of a debt.

Now let's say you hired a person to help you move the piano. You have gained an ally, in that you both wish for the same ends. Now you and the piano mover accomplish the task of getting the piano from one room to another. Through his strength and your strength you are able to finish. Once the task is done, you owe him a debt, beit a debt of gratitude or monetary. This one was an ally.

Similarly, the society has used the court system to fight for the rights of our brothers, in one country after another. The justice system is a tool. When you are finished with it, you are finished with it. There is no further obligation. It is a tool. It is a tool put in place by men to try to ensure that fairness is used in society. Just like tools, sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. Nevertheless, there is nothing owed from you to the justice system for them to make right an imposed wrong.

The UN, on the other hand is an ally. They were more than willing to help, but there was a price. When the task is accomplished, there was still something left on the table. The society was to inform the witnesses of the things that were going on in the UN. They were to share the ideals of the charter. What does the bible say about this? Steadfast mentioned it above. "Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? . . . Get out from among them, and separate yourselves."—2Co 6:14-17.

Regards,

Reader

[DoubtingThomas]

Reader ... That was the most simple, concise, accurate and easy to understand analogy and illustration of the Watchtowers unholy alliance with the UN that I have read in the past several years. Well done! Your thoughts got straight to the point also Molly. I love simple illustrations. It is all that my pea brain can handle. The truth is simple. It is only when we deviate from what is written (God's Word) that we really start to screw things up.

[DoubtingThomas]

The more I meditate on this subject over the years, the more I see a need to ask for Jehovah's forgiveness for the part I played in it. When I saw the very first article the Society published which gave approval to the work of the UN I was totally shocked. I knew something was wrong, and I asked others what they thought about the articles. Most of my family and brothers in the congregation just brushed the articles off as no big deal. So I went along with the crowd and did my fair share of placing these magazine articles in the hands of the public. I am now ashamed of myself, and sorry that I did not listen to my first gut reaction when reading these articles. I knew something was wrong, but I still did nothing about it. I can only pray for God's forgiveness and move on, now that I see the truth of what happened back in the early 1990's. Thank you Watchman and the many others out there in cyberspace who are helping the rest of us to see what happened here.

DT

[Reader]

I agree with you DT. We are all in the same boat, so to speak. There is a book out now ( I saw it on the Daily Show) called "The Lucifer Effect" which describes how easy it is to go along with the mob, even when the mob is doing abhorrent things. I looks to be very interesting, and perhaps a window into the psychology of the GT. Although it doesn't assuage our guilt from past doings, perhaps it will help us to stand apart from the crowd in that time. (The book proposes that it is such a rare instance that the people who do so could be described as heroes.)

(Right now I am reading a book on "Blackwater" and how the theocons basically have their own mercenary army trained and ready to go. Not a great book, yet interesting.)

This could also describe the goings on at bethel, where people know they should stand up, or have an uneasy feeling, yet go along with the flow because it is the easier direction.

Regards,

Reader

[Candace]

DT, I remember noticing a difference too. I remember searching through one magazine after reading a pro UN article and looking for the reference to God's Kingdom being the only hope of mankind, but not being able to find it. I dismissed the niggling feeling in the back of my head because we were conditioned not to question, not to doubt, not to think too hard.

Thankfully, I got over that conditioning! :clap:

[Molly]

Dear Reader-

Your analogy between the ally and the tool was right on point. It was totally accurate and fit the situation perfectly.

Doubting Thomas-

I know how you feel about going along with the proliferation of the magazines with the articles about the UN. I also remember thinking when I read one of the articles, "Now why in the world do I want to know about this?" And I feel the same guilt as you for having offered these magazines. Yet the printing of the articles is not in and of itself the problem. We can read in any other magazine or newspaper about the UN and feel no guilt. There is nothing wrong with the information in and of itself. It is, as Reader points out, the supportive relationship that was created between the UN and the WTS that is the part that is disgusting.

I also feel the guilt for my part for having distributed the magazines and have petition Jehovah for forgivness. I'm sure he knows how we were duped. And now, as Candace says, we have gotten over our conditioning not to think too hard. This site has been wonderful in that regard with all the wonderful posts and new information that is continually being presented. I feel I have learned more here than from the WT for the past several years.

Love

Molly

[Gabriel]

Do you think that as we continue to march forward to armegedon that we well see the Society deviate more and more in regards to loyalty? I too feel really bad, angery that I didnt do anything...say anything. I saw those articles. And like so many here who already expressed.. I knew something was wrong. I remember it like yetsrday. Its was almost like a paralysing type of emotion. didnt know what to do..so I did nothing. very shameful.

[Candace]

LV, read the Anti-christ essay (http://e-watchman.com/essays/mystery-antichrist.html) and I think your question about the deviation from loyalty will be answered. Bachman-Turner Overdrive said it well, "We Ain't Seen Nothing Yet."

Jehovah and Jesus are looking for those who are repentant, so be glad you are among those who have the right heart attitude.

(2 Peter 3:9) 9 Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.

Jehovah is so ready to forgive us, once we humbly admit our wrongdoing. He wants to be able to do that for everybody.

[Shibboleth]

Do you think that as we continue to march forward to armegedon that we well see the Society deviate more and more in regards to loyalty? I too feel really bad, angery that I didnt do anything...say anything. I saw those articles. And like so many here who already expressed.. I knew something was wrong. I remember it like yetsrday. Its was almost like a paralysing type of emotion. didnt know what to do..so I did nothing. very shameful.[/b]


I don't think so. I think Jehovah will step in and clean house before then. Most likely it will hapen right before or during the GT. (My speculation)

[Jeshurun]

I think it will get far worse, as in "enter, disgusting thing", and "man of lawlessness revealed".

That's where, God willing, we will be of such encouragement and assistance to all those Witnesses we will be in contact with.

So I'm looking forward to the day that we will get the signal or message from Jehovah that it is time to speak up and aggressively warn the sheep of the disgusting thing's presence. 'Cause keepin' quiet sure ain't easy.

Agape
Lou

[Reader]

I think it will get far worse, as in "enter, disgusting thing", and "man of lawlessness revealed".

That's where, God willing, we will be of such encouragement and assistance to all those Witnesses we will be in contact with.

So I'm looking forward to the day that we will get the signal or message from Jehovah that it is time to speak up and aggressively warn the sheep of the disgusting thing's presence. 'Cause keepin' quiet sure ain't easy.

Agape
Lou[/b]

Amen and amen

[stayawake]

IMHO

Hi LV ,never feel like you are responsible for any of the friends inside the WT that are unaware of what is going on.
If you check out 2Thess2;1-12, you will find that those who are in the dark are or will be those who believe the LIE rather then the TRUTH.
Most Elders are aware of whats going on, but would rather keep their positions then rock the boat. They will be under heavier judgement, as they are to be looking after our souls. They are the ones who will be accountable,
Certainly NOT LV. So don't be so hard on yourself.Just thank Jah for your responsive heart.
THe COs even went to school as to handle anyone who did
know. That was to put any one who knew about the NGO out ASP, before disunity took place in the cong.
Jehovah is searching the hearts, and if the heart is bent on following Jehovah rather then then Man, circumstances will have a way of directing them to flee.
Until the time is right , NO ONE can give this to anyone. They have to want it,
until they are ready to listen, you are hitting your head against the wall. All we can do is to pray for them, and really if their hearts are favorable they WILL see this , but it will only be thru Jah opening their eyes. Disipline will be harder on those in then out, as we are in the light, while they are in the dark

Jesh, yep things will get worse as we all are going to end up being disiplined by our captivity to the NWO.
This will take place before our Great preaching work will dare to start.
Love stayawake I only speak for myself

[eyes&ears]

Hi Stayawake,

Now that is really not good. Elders knowing and just protecting their positions. How very very sad.

Are you serious, the CO's actually went to school to learn how to handle some of these things????. My goodness that is frightening.

Good grief.

Thanks for your expressions.

Hugs

E & E

[Reader]

"THe COs even went to school as to handle anyone who did
know. That was to put any one who knew about the NGO out ASP, before disunity took place in the cong."

I'm with E&E. I'm flabbergasted.

stayawake, what brought you to that conclusion? Please explain.

Thanks

Reader

[DoubtingThomas]

Just one correction here Stayawake. It is not knowing about the relationship of the WT with the UN as an NGO that will get you in trouble. What will get you in "trouble" is not accepting the explanation (i.e. "excuse") given that will land one in the hot seat. If one just "ask" the elders about the matter, that is OK. But you better pretend to believe the explanation given, or it could be construed as apostasy. Also ... some elders are not even aware of this matter, and they have to get back to you with an explanation if you do ask them. Personally ... I think it is a good thing to ask an elder if they have heard the WT was an NGO to the UN. Just innocently say you came across the info. in The Guarduian article or stumbled across it on the internet (which is not an untruth for most of us), and that you wanted to know more about if it was true. That will help open the eyes of some elders not aware of the Watchtowers prostitution. Then it is up to them to believe it or not, depending on if they worship the God of truth Jehovah, or worship the organization instead.

DT

[stayawake]

IMHO

About two years ago, a school was set up by the Society For all COs to attend. They were devided up in to small groups and were prgramned, as to how to explain the reason for the NGO according to THEIR explanation. if it would surface in the cong.
Following that Circuit Overseer SPECIAL SCOOL PROGRAM
at every Circuit assembly when the Elders met for their Assembly elders meeting,
the elders were told as to what the FS SAID happened. The society had a open letter on the internete for awhile as to their LIE in their defence
So the Elders are aware of the NGO affair ,but prefer to believe the lie. 2 Thess 2:11-12.rather then look into it themself.( NOT ALL ELDERS) I know this to be TRUE
Grant it you are also right its when one will not accept their expanation (THE LIE )that the society is putting out, then one is dismissed as a apostate.
But you know this is what happens when one (ELDERS NOT ALL) put their trust into man. One starts believing the LIE.
Jah says it does NOT belong to man to even direct his own foot.
love stayawake

[Reader]

Forgive my ignorance, but I was wondering about some of the details.

Was this school for CO's ran at bethel?
How are you familiar with the goings on at the meeting?
I am not familiar with the open letter, nor have I heard this before. Do you have a copy of it? Where was it originally posted?

Sorry, I just have an inquiring mind.

Thanks again

Reader

[Nash]

I agree with Doubting Thomas. Although I am unsure of the details, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the elders have received instructions on how to 'handle' the issues that arise as a result of the NGO issue. I would tend to agree that the 'problem' arises when one does not accept or agree with what the elders say.

Nash

[stayawake]

Sorry Reader
I can't give you details, as I don't know them
I do know what I posted is true,as the information about the school came out of Bethel
Now we are talking about a little over two years ago.
love stayawake

[scriptures]

It's hard to tell what will happen in the future, as far as I know, the coming of Christ is very very near. I do not know what will happen to WTS. One thing I am sure of is that we will be judge individually.

The most important right now is to stay awake and don't leave Jehovah.

agape
scriptures

[Jinnvisible]

Estoril – Portugal

SCC 2001 Oct., 8th

Dear Brother:

.....................................

"What is an NGO? A non-governmental organization (NGO) is any
non-profit, voluntary citizens' group which is organized on a local,
national or international level.[/b]

It is a good point about Paul.

Yet what if Paul had commited to promoting the aims of Rome within his letters. Not only his own letters but those of the other apostle`s also.

Paul did not go out of his way to become a Roman citizen in order to gain rights. Cornelius was a soldier. Would it have been the same thing if he had been visited by an angel, aswell as an apostle, and then after that decided on an army career ?

[panda]

Dear Reader-

Your analogy between the ally and the tool was right on point. It was totally accurate and fit the situation perfectly.

Doubting Thomas-

I know how you feel about going along with the proliferation of the magazines with the articles about the UN. I also remember thinking when I read one of the articles, "Now why in the world do I want to know about this?" And I feel the same guilt as you for having offered these magazines. Yet the printing of the articles is not in and of itself the problem. We can read in any other magazine or newspaper about the UN and feel no guilt. There is nothing wrong with the information in and of itself. It is, as Reader points out, the supportive relationship that was created between the UN and the WTS that is the part that is disgusting.

I also feel the guilt for my part for having distributed the magazines and have petition Jehovah for forgivness. I'm sure he knows how we were duped. And now, as Candace says, we have gotten over our conditioning not to think too hard. This site has been wonderful in that regard with all the wonderful posts and new information that is continually being presented. I feel I have learned more here than from the WT for the past several years.

Love

Molly[/b]Would you be so kind as to tell me which magazines you are referring to what dates, please.

[panda]

Just one correction here Stayawake. It is not knowing about the relationship of the WT with the UN as an NGO that will get you in trouble. What will get you in "trouble" is not accepting the explanation (i.e. "excuse") given that will land one in the hot seat. If one just "ask" the elders about the matter, that is OK. But you better pretend to believe the explanation given, or it could be construed as apostasy. Also ... some elders are not even aware of this matter, and they have to get back to you with an explanation if you do ask them. Personally ... I think it is a good thing to ask an elder if they have heard the WT was an NGO to the UN. Just innocently say you came across the info. in The Guarduian article or stumbled across it on the internet (which is not an untruth for most of us), and that you wanted to know more about if it was true. That will help open the eyes of some elders not aware of the Watchtowers prostitution. Then it is up to them to believe it or not, depending on if they worship the God of truth Jehovah, or worship the organization instead.

DT[/b]Then it is up to them to believe it or not, depending on if they worship the God of truth Jehovah, or worship the organization instead

That is about the size of it.....and we know the truth about it don't we, so morally we all are involved in this, because we know......so what stand are we going to make.

[panda]

It's hard to tell what will happen in the future, as far as I know, the coming of Christ is very very near. I do not know what will happen to WTS. One thing I am sure of is that we will be judge individually.

The most important right now is to stay awake and don't leave Jehovah.

agape
scriptures[/b] Excellent comment....agree especially with not leaving Jehovah, wait for him to clean up this corrupt org, the Isrealites were cleaned out, but for us we need to always stay with Jehovah and trust Jesus as our head.

[NEW HEART]

Oh...Now that makes sence. I knew there had to be some meat somewhere that I just couldnt chew right. Wow..."Climed on the back of the beast" I remember about 8-9 years ago seeing an awake article about the the UN's activities and the society were...what appeared to me ..giving praise to it. Really struck me as odd. But I just shook it off. remembered it just like yesterday. Felt so strange. hum.[/b]


I remember reading the Awakes and seeing how they were talking highly of the UN and to me it seemed like they were glorifying the beast. I pointed this out to my husband. I knew something was off too, and because of it...I would not place any literature they printed. I would only use my Bible at the door . This seemed strange to some, that I never carried a bookbag.