Is Prince Still A Witness?

[Shibboleth]

Prince (or the artist formerly known as Prince) did a spectacular half-time show at the NFL's Superbowl last night. I had heard that he was still a witness. I was watching the game with a bunch of witnesses and there was some mixed feelings on him performing. I thought that it was a great idea that he performed. We were kinda making fun of his dancers, saying that they were regular pioneers from his hall (that was just joking and not at all truth).

I was just wondering if the elders from his hall were going to pull him into the back room to go over his performance and maybe df him for it.

What do you think? Is it anyone's business if Prince still does shows?

I personally don't care. If he loves Jehovah and he can still perform and keep his faith, I am all for it.

Regards,

Shibboleth

[Nambo]

Prince (or the artist formerly known as Prince) did a spectacular half-time show at the NFL's Superbowl last night. I had heard that he was still a witness. I was watching the game with a bunch of witnesses and there was some mixed feelings on him performing. I thought that it was a great idea that he performed. We were kinda making fun of his dancers, saying that they were regular pioneers from his hall (that was just joking and not at all truth).

I was just wondering if the elders from his hall were going to pull him into the back room to go over his performance and maybe df him for it.

What do you think? Is it anyone's business if Prince still does shows?

I personally don't care. If he loves Jehovah and he can still perform and keep his faith, I am all for it.

Regards,

Shibboleth[/b]

Now I subscribe to a service that e-mails me every news article concerning Jehovahs Witnesses from around the world.

I would estimate at least a third of them concern Prince being a JW and how much cleaner his acts are as a consequence and about the number of his records he will no longer perform.

So, yes, he is.

Now the only part of that show I happened to see was when he did Purple rain, and he took up that strange guitar with the extra pointed curly bit, and then they heald white sheets and lighten Prince so that you could only see him in siluete, and how that curly pointed bit in siluete then looked just like Satans pointed tail coming from Princes behind.

Guess he cannot get his act completely JW clean else there would be nothing left.
Maybe he doesnt realise what that Guitar looks like?

[Shibboleth]

I heard some other people say the same thing about his sihlloutte(sp)

I didn't notice, but yet again I was to busy grabing some food. heh

[LoveJehovah]

I was somewhat amazed at how much cleaner is show was. Even the dancers were not dressed immodest like they would have been years ago. I am not a Prince fan but I have to admit that I was really impressed with his performance last night.

I seen that shadow also and I really did not know what to think. I imagine he figured that since his fans knows of his faith that he was trying to please them somewhat especially after the one concert that he did and the crowd booed him.

[Jeshurun]

I think it's great that Prince is able to send a nice message about the Witnesses. My question is, how do you perform the halftime show at the Super Bowl, and yet manage to skate Bethaven's decree to be "no part of the world"?

[Kenneth]

I won't say too much on worldly entertainment, but why does a man who is a multimillionaire want to carry on entertaining people who treat and see him as an idol. I don't care if he's cleaned up his act. I've stayed away for theses places for years as it sets a poor example for others in the congregation.

How do brothers who frequent these football and rugby matches maintain their neutrality? I don't know much about American football but where I come from sport is a god that's draped around the national flag. You can call me a prude if you like but I see the two as fundamentally part of the world, big sporting events and big musical concerts. If a brothers wants to have a kick around in the field or play his banjo, fine. But where do we draw the line between it just being a bit of fun and it becoming a god.

There appeared to be two gods out there last night those on the pitch and those on the stage.


Kenneth

[Shibboleth]

Hey Kenneth, in some respects I think you are right. From my understanding of footy, in europe and other countries, the stadiums can get pretty crazy, nationalistic-wise and many of the hooligans get out of control. It is similar over here. I used to enjoy going to Fenway Park (Boston Red Sox baseball) and watch a game. It was great to have entertainment. Some people go overboard with it and make it their lives. Alot of the brothers I know (including me) talk about games at the hall and enjoy getting together to socialize and watch a game. But you need balance. I think I have a good balance on it, that it doesn't rule my life.

I don't go to sporting events anymore. basically after 9/11 I stopped going. It got way to nationalistic. The last game I went to was in 2003 (I had only been to just a few games since 9/11) Pre-9/11 I went all the time. It's the same way with concerts. I used to be in a witness punk band and I after I was df'd I was in a worldy metal band. I love music and singing, but when I came back into the truth I stopped going. I figure that if Jesus comes back and I am at one of these shows I don't think he would think to highly of me.

I guess, in my view, I wouldn't stop people from going to a game or concert. But I always think twice before I make a decision about going.

Regards,

Shibboleth

[watchman]

Now the only part of that show I happened to see was when he did Purple rain, and he took up that strange guitar with the extra pointed curly bit, and then they heald white sheets and lighten Prince so that you could only see him in siluete, and how that curly pointed bit in siluete then looked just like Satans pointed tail coming from Princes behind.

Guess he cannot get his act completely JW clean else there would be nothing left.
Maybe he doesnt realise what that Guitar looks like?[/b]

My wife and I watched Prince's halftime show. And yeah, Nambo, you are spot on. I remarked to my wife that Prince's little behind the veil act with his purple Egyptian ankh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankh)-shaped guitar looked like Satan in hell doing something obscene. With the seething crowd of starry-eyed adoring women at the foot of the stage, it was as close to witnessing an act of phallic worship as I care to get.

For those who missed it. Here's a picture of what an "ankh-shaped guitar" looks like
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d7/Prince_1995_With_Guitar.sized.jpg/200px-Prince_1995_With_Guitar.sized.jpg

[Jinnvisible]

I decorated a guitar with painted in olive leaves, it looks a bit like the UN logo around the sound hole.

[watchman]

I decorated a guitar with painted in olive leaves, it looks a bit like the UN logo around the sound hole.[/b]


Thanks for sharing Jinn, but that may be TMI. (Too much information) :P

[juffowup]

Hi Kenneth. You gotta use your personal conscience to know what to avoid in this world. Some people have trouble not getting wrapped up in things like music stars and professional sports, and to them I say, avoid them like the plague. Some people get way to competitive about back yard volleyball and card games, and I wish these people would avoid these activities, as it ruins it for the rest of us trying to have a good time. I love the brothers that play softball(?!) at a get together and complain about how many kids and women their team have and keep score and shove children out of the way to make catches. Good grief.

If a certain music, video game, tv show, movie, activity, thought, etc, appeals to your fleshly desires, then do what you have to do to overcome this, even if it means ripping out your eye metaphorically. But part of being a Christian is to realize that everyone is different and looks at things differently. And just because you have a problem with it, that doesn't mean your fellow brothers and sisters will. I like professional football, but I don't have posters put up in my house and don't spend money I don't have going to games or painting my face or swearing or treating my family bad if they lose, etc, etc. I can see people that do, and truly, they have made a false god for themselves. Let alone the soccer phenomenon that does from a distance seem to be an excuse for feeling superior about one's nationality and culture.

Anyway, back on topic... I don't understand why people excited one way or another about famous people being Witnesses. What are we, Scientologists? If Price is a witness of Jehovah, that doesn't make it "cooler" or more valid some how. It just means he probably has a tougher road than a lot of us to follow to make it through this system. And if he's a big faker, or insincere, what is that to me?

I'm not harping on anyone, it is of course ok to ask and it is natural to be curious about people like Prince. There is a young man who plays professional basket ball where I am from, and he has talked in the papers about being a witness and going to the door. And I wonder what kind of reactions he gets? Famous, seven foot tall guy shows up to your door in a suit and offers the WT&A mags. Does he place them with or without autographs? :D And how does he deal with all the money that he has, and the women he is exposed to, and the worldly attitudes of the other "athletes" he is surrounded by?

On the other hand, I was at a superbowl gathering last night and I can't believe how passionate some got arguing about "Yes he is!" "No he isn't!" I think the yes people took far to much satisfaction out of the fact that he was, and the no people were too indignant and judgemental about "No witness can possibily be a guy like Prince." That's a bold thing to say, especially considering what the man once was, where he is now, and how short a time he's been studying and supposedly baptised.

[Sketch]

Can we PLEASE stop judging PEOPLE???? WHO CARES?? REALLY?? I don't CARE if he is a witness or not. On the surface, there was nothing wrong with his show. If you think his guitar and silloutte symbolized something, then you are going to find what you want to find.

If the man says he is a witness, and unless we physically see something specifically that he has done against Jehovah (and not just HEAR it on the grapevine), then we have an OBLIGATION to treat him as a brother - which in turn shouldn't be any different than anyone else.

There is NOTHING wrong with him being a musician/performer. Just like there is nothing wrong with being a professional athlete... Its what he's good at, and its what he enjoys... STOP JUDGING THE MAN!

[DoubtingThomas]

Right on Sketch! I totally agree. In fact, someone with fortune and fame certainly has nothing to gain in a selfish way by dedicating himself to Jehovah and getting baptized. In fact, if anything ... it would even be a harder row to hoe. What was it Jesus said, something about it being harder for a rich man to make it into the Kingdom than for a camel to get through the eye of a needle? He didn't say it would be impossible, just harder for someone who is rich. You gotta hand it to the man for at least trying to serve Jehovah. He must love his God immensely to have made sacrifices to serve him as best he can.

[Jeshurun]

My snide remark was aimed at Bethel, not Prince. But anyway, who's judging? I think it's a very interesting topic. It's nice to see someone so accepted by the world turn to Jehovah. I missed the silhouette thing because as usual I was buried in a horrific article about how the Illuminati created Charles Manson at the China Lake baby torture facilities, and I'm a big football fan and have always been glued to the Super Bowl. But I paid more attention to the halftime show than I did the game, mostly because I knew the Colts would win and because once the Jets get knocked out my season is basically over as far as rooting. My wife and I were both pulling for Peyton Manning to get the monkey off his back.

I thought the best news of the night was after the game, from WorldNetDaily:

SUPER BOWL XLI
Colts coach Tony Dungy</span>

Super Bowl XLI had been hyped as a major social milestone in U.S. history, since for the time, the head coaches of both teams were black.

But when the game was over and the Indianapolis Colts had defeated the Chicago Bears 29-17, the winning coach said Jesus Christ was more important than any racial moment.

During the nationally televised post-game show on CBS, coach Tony Dungy was asked specifically about the "social significance."

<blockquote>Jim Nantz of CBS Sports: This is one of those moments, Tony, where there is also social significance in this victory, and to have your hands on the Vince Lombardi Trophy. Tell me what this means to you right now. Tony Dungy: I&#39;ll tell you what. I&#39;m proud to be representing African-American coaches, to be the first African-American to win this. It means an awful lot to our country. But again, more than anything, I&#39;ve said it before, Lovie Smith and I, not only the first two African-Americans, but Christian coaches showing that you can win doing it the Lord&#39;s way. And we&#39;re more proud of that.

</blockquote>The Associated Press (http://www.wnd.com/redir/r.asp?http://www.breitbart.com/news/2007/02/04/D8N3ADSO0.html) reported Dungy&#39;s comments about God in stories it moved on its wire service, but the Bloomberg News Service (http://www.wnd.com/redir/r.asp?http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601079&sid=aI_L4N_jxRnY&refer=home) only published the portion regarding African-Americans, and edited out the mention of Christian coaches.

[olrono]

I won&#39;t say too much on worldly entertainment, but why does a man who is a multimillionaire want to carry on entertaining people who treat and see him as an idol. I don&#39;t care if he&#39;s cleaned up his act. I&#39;ve stayed away for theses places for years as it sets a poor example for others in the congregation.

How do brothers who frequent these football and rugby matches maintain their neutrality? I don&#39;t know much about American football but where I come from sport is a god that&#39;s draped around the national flag. You can call me a prude if you like but I see the two as fundamentally part of the world, big sporting events and big musical concerts. If a brothers wants to have a kick around in the field or play his banjo, fine. But where do we draw the line between it just being a bit of fun and it becoming a god.

There appeared to be two gods out there last night those on the pitch and those on the stage.


Kenneth[/b]

I agree with you 100%, you know the Illuminati really created “Bred and Circus” to keep ‘Joe six pack’ busy as not to discover what they are really up to, and maybe discover the Truth!

[olrono]

Prince (or the artist formerly known as Prince) did a spectacular half-time show at the NFL&#39;s Superbowl last night. I had heard that he was still a witness. I was watching the game with a bunch of witnesses and there was some mixed feelings on him performing. I thought that it was a great idea that he performed. We were kinda making fun of his dancers, saying that they were regular pioneers from his hall (that was just joking and not at all truth).

I was just wondering if the elders from his hall were going to pull him into the back room to go over his performance and maybe df him for it.

What do you think? Is it anyone&#39;s business if Prince still does shows?

I personally don&#39;t care. If he loves Jehovah and he can still perform and keep his faith, I am all for it.

Regards,

Shibboleth[/b]

I am I missing some thing? I never heard Prince was JW? Or are people confusing Michael Jackson with him? I can confirm MJ’s family on the mothers side were JW, their congregation shared the same hall I attended for seven years in Van Nuys, Ca.

[DoubtingThomas]

[/font][font="Times New Roman"]Yes Olrono. Prince is a JW. He has confirmed it publicly in interviews, and it has been well documented in the media. Did you go to the Woodland Hills Assmebly Hall for your Circuit Assemblies when you lived in La-La Land? My fleshly sister remembers seeing Michael Jackson sitting all by himself at the Woodland Hills Assembly Hall. She was in the same Circuit as MJ in the 1970&#39;s when he was still a brother in good standing. She told me that the Assembly Hall is circular (with a rotating round stage) and that she would see MJ walking around the Assmebly Hall in circles when the brothers were giving their talks like he was really bored or something. But he isolated himself she said. Maybe the brothers and sisters were just trying to give him his privacy though. Oh well ...

[olrono]

<div class='quotemain'>[/font][font="Times New Roman"]Well I guess I haven’t ever had that confirmed. Every time I heard something like that, I always thought they meant MJ. Yes, you are right. You described the assembly Hall exactly. I understand it was bought from Bob Hope and he liked that dome shape, infact his house is the same shape too in Palm Springs. I don’t know if the society still owns that property? I saw the last time I passed by there, there was no more Kingdom Assembly Hall sign, and it looked run down like I never saw before??? Those were the days, I remember that too, MJ was always the one not there, all his brothers with those big ‘hair dews’ were always there and stayed close to mama. I only stayed there 7 years for I thought the younger ones my age at the time were so COLD! I went back up to Oregon and it was so much better there! You know, they had this saying… “There are California Witnesses, and there are Jehovah’s Witnesses. I think I told you all that already when I first introduced myself here on e watchman if anyone remembers? I thought someone from my past would of said something to me by now on this Data Base? For I thought I had so many friends in the Truth you would think someone would say something? Every one knows me by O’l Rono it’s not like I am afraid to reveal myself in hopes the brothers would understand my position on NGO!

[dgibson]

"There are California Witnesses, and there are Jehovah’s Witnesses."

Yes, and there are small town witnesses, with small town minds, and there are big city witnesses with big city educations.

It seems never ending, the differences that are overlooked between areas of living.

The witnesses are united in many bible doctrinal truths, hidden truths, historical chronological miscountings, and biblical prophesy forecast foul-ups, but the tolerance of members behaviors, is in direct coordination with the actual congregations global coordinates, in relationship with money, lawyers and media attention. In other words, L. A. is not a place where the society would want to press the brothers to wear suits on hot summer days.

[Kenneth]

You see my problem is not with him being an entertainer, even though I know nothing about his history, life and music, the problem is what it represents and the example it sets for others especially younger ones. Next to immorality music is one of the most powerful tools that Satan has in his munitions store and for young people it has a magnetic sway that can unleash a whole host of emotions. Yet Paul advised us to "keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord." I have heard that Prince has changed his lyric that are more in line with scripture, but that&#39;s not the point. The whole super-ball sports and music thing has idolization written all over it. The bible is clear on the matter that the veneration and idolization of humans is fundamentally wrong. I have never quite work people out how one equates sport which is &#39;war without guns&#39; with the truths of God&#39;s word. I don&#39;t want to sound a prude or a killjoy but can someone explain to me how a brother/sister can go to an international rugby game stand through the national anthem, listen to the foulmouthed language and remain impassively neutral? Is it acceptable to the Lord?


Kenneth

[Shibboleth]

To olrono : Yes it is confirmed that Prince is a Jehovah&#39;s Witness. Do a google search and you will find news articles on it. I believe he also discussed it in an interview with Larry King.

To Sketch : I did not start this subject to judge the man nor would I judge anyone. Coming from a background of music myself and playing in a couple heavier metal bands both in the truth and out of the truth I have come to realize that it is a tough place to keep your faith. I personally don&#39;t sing in bands anymore. I will write lyrics occasionally, but have left that life behind. Even when I was in a witness band it was tough. I applaud Prince if he can keep his faith and still perform. It takes a strong man to do what he does after all he has been through. He is a smart musician and I have heard he can play around 16 instruments. I also heard that he got together with Celine Dion and another singer to do some of the Kingdom songs. That is not confirmed I had heard it froma friend. I thought overall his performance was clean. If you have ever seen footage from his earlier performances you would see the change.

[Kenneth]

Prince maybe a great musician and I&#39;m not in the business of judging other&#39;s what they do is their business. I don&#39;t know if he&#39;s a witness nor not. I&#39;m more concerned with the wider context of the music industry and the effect it&#39;s having on younger ones in the congregation. I don&#39;t know if you have children but I have and one of them has been deeply effected by the music industry, so I have an axe to grined. So as not to detract form the subject of Prince I will start a new thread on the subject of music.

Kenneth</span> </span>

[Shibboleth]

you don&#39;t need to start a new subject. you could keep it right here. it applies.


The Society even warns about the draw of music. It is a powerful tool. It has been used down thru the ages as a way to rile people up.

But there are positive aspects to music and those positive aspects must be taught to children. Jehovah used music in service to him. Israel used it in campaigns against Jehovah&#39;s enemies. King David made many songs to Jehovah and he was quite proficient in the harp. Moses made many songs to Jehovah as well. there are many positive avenues to music that witnesses can use. The problem lies in the negative worldly aspects of music. What it is associated with and what purposes it serves. When I played in the bands that I was in, it served a purpose for me as a get-away from life. My best friend had just died and I used music to close myself from the world. It was when I let that music control me and my view of life that it turned into a bad influence. I wasn&#39;t in it for the glamour or prestige or to be used as an idol. I used it to get a message out that I was hurting. Alot of kids these days are "hurting" inside and need an outlet for their angst. That is why many turn to punk rock or metal music cause they know it irritates their parents, and it provides the outlet they need. That is where balance plays out and make sure you know what your kids are listening to.

I personally don&#39;t have children, but I know I would be part of their lives 110%. I would let them know where I failed and what I expected of them. I would also let them know that the choices they make today will affect them for the rest of their lives. Most kids only think of today and do not think of the future. Even though I know I wouldn&#39;t be the perfect parent I would try my hardest to be involved. That is what kids want from parents, they want their moms and dads involved in their lives. When you stop being involved then they seek the attention elsewhere.

Regards,

Shibboleth

[Kenneth]

The problem is that children are more influence by their peer than their parents. If their peers are listening to a certain band you can guarantee they will be regardless of what you say and how much you reason on the matter. I grew up in the 1970s and rock music was my life. Not only that but I got involved with the drug scene and totally rebelled against society and my parents.

One of the reasons for my involvement in music were my peers who listened to rock music all-day long. The idea of morality didn&#39;t fit the equation. I have been quite open about the past with my children and the experiences I had in the hope that they would learn form them. For one though that&#39;s not the case as the world revolves around music and there&#39;s nothing outside of it. I know I&#39;m not on my own as so many in the KH are swayed by its influence. I remember a circuit overseer in the mid 90s telling me that youths were concealing unwholesome music in cassette cases. The being and end of the tape would have something tolerable and in the middle was the devils music. What&#39;s was the point I don&#39;t know.



Kenneth

[Kenneth]

Of course we can&#39;t go around blaming the youth of today as it&#39;s the 1960s generation who has got rich off the backs of the fashion and the music industry. Couple that with the wily hatted - bed wetting - yogurt knitting liberals of the 60s and you have a recipe for disaster. And they sit back and wonder why the world is in such a mess. :ranting2:

Kenneth

[olrono]

To olrono : Yes it is confirmed that Prince is a Jehovah&#39;s Witness. Do a google search and you will find news articles on it. I believe he also discussed it in an interview with Larry King.

To Sketch : I did not start this subject to judge the man nor would I judge anyone. Coming from a background of music myself and playing in a couple heavier metal bands both in the truth and out of the truth I have come to realize that it is a tough place to keep your faith. I personally don&#39;t sing in bands anymore. I will write lyrics occasionally, but have left that life behind. Even when I was in a witness band it was tough. I applaud Prince if he can keep his faith and still perform. It takes a strong man to do what he does after all he has been through. He is a smart musician and I have heard he can play around 16 instruments. I also heard that he got together with Celine Dion and another singer to do some of the Kingdom songs. That is not confirmed I had heard it froma friend. I thought overall his performance was clean. If you have ever seen footage from his earlier performances you would see the change.[/b]

Hi Shibo! O’l Rono here, I wish I knew you before, I always wanted a “Recording Studio” and now that I have one, theres no one to record!? I have a Good one too, two inch tape,24 track like the good ol days, But now my big MCI console only holds this little lap top now as I write this….

[James]

I won&#39;t say too much on worldly entertainment, but why does a man who is a multimillionaire want to carry on entertaining people who treat and see him as an idol. I don&#39;t care if he&#39;s cleaned up his act. I&#39;ve stayed away for theses places for years as it sets a poor example for others in the congregation.

How do brothers who frequent these football and rugby matches maintain their neutrality? I don&#39;t know much about American football but where I come from sport is a god that&#39;s draped around the national flag. You can call me a prude if you like but I see the two as fundamentally part of the world, big sporting events and big musical concerts. If a brothers wants to have a kick around in the field or play his banjo, fine. But where do we draw the line between it just being a bit of fun and it becoming a god.

There appeared to be two gods out there last night those on the pitch and those on the stage.


Kenneth[/b]

Hi Kenneth,

I&#39;m with you on this one. The world is obsessed with sports, it is an idol to them and it becomes more violent all the time, both on the field and in the stands.
And what they pay these &#39;professional&#39; ball players is obscene.

James

[Nambo]

Hi Kenneth,

I&#39;m with you on this one. The world is obsessed with sports, it is an idol to them and it becomes more violent all the time, both on the field and in the stands.
And what they pay these &#39;professional&#39; ball players is obscene.

James[/b]

Now who was it who said, "Football is the Opium of the people"?

For most of the guys at work, that is thier whole life, they can talk about, and niether would they want to, nothing but football, they dont want to know about world affairs, politics, religion, 911 nothing but football, and they think you are the crazy one!
You can have world war 3 being announced on the news and they would rather watch football on the otherside, even if its continetal football that they dont even have an interest in who wins, as long as they can watch a load of men endlessly passing a ball to one another.

[DoubtingThomas]

Now who was it who said, "Football is the Opium of the people"?

Question: When you folks from the other side of the pond mention "football" do you mean "soccer" or do you really mean "football" like we play here in the USA?

[Dorcas]

I have to commend you friends for having such insight into the world of entertainment. I remember when Michael Jackson was struggling with his loyalties. Only one of his siblings stayed with the truth -- the eldest daughter was a Pioneer. One of my friends&#39; uncle was a Circuit Overseer and he served Michael&#39;s congregation...what a mess!
Certainly music touches us to the core -- it affects us emotionally. I remember trying to work with my 3 kids to memorize the books of the Bible. Yet they knew the lyrics to worldly songs and every jingle on TV. Satan makes it so easy to slip off the narrow path.
Our children have to learn early-on to monitor their feelings when they listen to music. If they find themselves thinking about what is wrong when listening to certain music, they have to "change the channel". Some publisher used to publish a magazine with the words of popular songs. We would go over the words as a family to see if they were appropriate.
We can&#39;t be asleep at the switch with our precious children. I&#39;ve heard it said that, because Jehovah sent a flood to kill off the demons&#39; offspring (Nephalim) that this time, Satan was out to destroy our children! I&#39;ve often thought about that in regard to the "pale horse" in Revelation. I&#39;ve understood that horse to represent untimely death. The drugs, the wars, the entertainment industry, all stealing away the young people.
Love and prayers go out to all of you parents...Dorcas http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/MSN%20Vlinder.gif

[Kenneth]

No Thomas we call it football.

The stadiums are known as football grounds and not soccer grounds. The football played in the USA is more like handball as there is little contact with the foot. Whereas football played here is about 95% foot contact and the other 5% is accounted for heading the ball.

And yes "Football is the Opium of the people" as it&#39;s the new religion, even though it was in its infancy when Marx was around.




Kenneth

[Kenneth]

So why is it then that so many in the truth go to music concerts and football matches when the prevailing sprit is nationalistic and idolatress? Then sit through a Watchtower on neutrality. I know of elder&#39;s, MS and publishers that frequent national games here in the UK. And believe me you real do have to come here to appreciate what the god of sport is all about, we get it 24/7.

And as for the idolatress pop industry form ABBA to Led Zeppelin the god "remains the same"… "Money, Money, Money it&#39;s a rich mans world", its one big money making racket. :ranting2:

"Do not be loving either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one&#39;s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever."


Kenneth

[Nambo]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y72/Nambocttr/Prince.jpg

Now when I was first in the "truth", I was invited to a witness fancy dress party and was most surprised to see the host dressed as the devil, in skintight red complete with pitchfork, horns and tail.
I must admit she did look hot.
Perhaps its a Witness thing?

Cant seem to get the image of Prince up, you will have to click on the link.

[Kenneth]

Looks like a whole load of idolatry is going on there Nambo.

Sorry if I&#39;m down on this thread but I have no time for the gods of this system. We live in the age of the &#39;celebrity cult&#39;. There are those who just want to be famous for the sake of it. If all the idolizers just went home and stopped bowing to them just imaging how deflated there egos would be. Theses people of fame like so many have lost the plot, they can&#39;t differentiate between reality and fantasy. Life is all about them and the relationships. Just read some of the celebrity magazines and see how in love they are with themselves. The tabloid news papers are full of it. We could be attacked by aliens and they would be more interested in what&#39;s going on in Big Brother. No wonder the worlds upside down with these people in our faces 24/7. No wonder the youth of today are so skewed up with celerity&#39;s who can&#39;t define what&#39;s morally right and wrong. How many of their marriages last, what example are they setting as gods to our youth. None. When they made the film it&#39;s a &#39;Mad, Mad, Mad World&#39; I don&#39;t think they realised just how mad it would get.

Kenneth

[Sketch]

And if he was wearing wings and a halo? what then? as we all know the devil can make himself look like an angel of light.... or anything else in between...

you&#39;re going to see what you want and so far, reading this whole thing makes me feel like i&#39;m back in a cong. clique gossiping about people I don&#39;t know....

it pathetic people.

[Berean]

you&#39;re going to see what you want and so far, reading this whole thing makes me feel like i&#39;m back in a cong. clique gossiping about people I don&#39;t know....[/b]
With this difference, that Prince is putting himself under public scrutiny, choosing not to be humble but placing himself in the spotlight. My gripe with that is that if you would give the opportunity of having the attention of such a big audience to someone like, say Paul, Peter, or yes, Jesus, they would have used it to preach the gospel. Now I&#39;m not saying this performing artist should be using this opportunity to give a lecture or anything, but he should ask himself - if he is still a Witness, that is - what message it sends about our faith. Will people associate us now with using guitars to suggest certain *ahem* things? Now don&#39;t get me wrong, I love music, but I believe Prince did miss a great opportunity here - you&#39;ll hear more talk about God at a U2 concert than you did at that Super Bowl show, I&#39;d wager, even though I haven&#39;t seen it (apart from the images of the silhouette scene).

[Kenneth]

Hi Sketch

I don&#39;t think this is an attack on Prince but on what the whole thing stands for. Celebrity cult and the music industry is wrecking the minds of millions earth wide. The music industry has become skilled in the manipulation of the masses; it stirs emotions and takes advantage of insecurities. All of this brings people under the control of those who own the industry. So yes I am biased and I don&#39;t mind saying so as the whole affair sickens me to the stomach. Don&#39;t get me wrong I love music of all kinds especially when it&#39;s live. Even though I get little opportunity to listen to it. Parents have become locked in a conflict between the media, music and their children, and are trying to understand a culture that is alien to them. As for young people they are having difficulty deciphering the difference between right and wrong as their values are shaped by what they see from their idols. It would be interesting to see if music were taken out of the equation what society would look like today. I think it would be a different place. So when I see these people strutting there thing and watch them being idolized by millions I just want to vomit. (Sorry of the metaphor but that how I see it) Today music serves for youth as the "opiate of the masses".



Kenneth

[Sketch]

With this difference, that Prince is putting himself under public scrutiny,
choosing not to be humble but placing himself in the spotlight.[/b]

So, you think that because Brother Nelson is a rock star, a great performer, and an artist, he&#39;s not being humble? how can YOU sit in judgement of him like that? have you met the man? have you sat and had a drink with him, asked him about how his life changed when his wife miscarried? did you even KNOW about the miscarriage?


My gripe with that is that if you would give the opportunity of having the attention of such a big audience to someone like, say Paul, Peter, or yes, Jesus, they would have used it to preach the gospel.[/b]

well, based just on common sense alone, if Brother Nelson did in fact use his position to preach, he would no longer BE in that "position". a catch-22 wouldn&#39;t you say? You can sit there all you want and belittle people for their decisions but in the end, thats literally ALL you&#39;re doing... helping yourself feel better.



Now I&#39;m not saying this performing artist should be using this opportunity to give a lecture or anything, but....[/b]

No, thats EXACTLY what you&#39;re saying.


he should ask himself - if he is still a Witness, that is - what message it sends about our faith.[/b]

You mean, what message it sends out to YOU. The FACT that he&#39;s already cleaned up his performances, and his lyrics, and the FACT that he no longer distributes his music via the standard record labels means NOTHING to you. Yet, the music industry, and pop-culture in general HAS noticed... and that tells me that you probably wouldn&#39;t accept any changes he&#39;s made in his life.


Will people associate us now with using guitars to suggest certain *ahem* things?[/b]

suggest what? if you can&#39;t state what you believe, then you have no business believing it. leave gutter mind out of this. what about Chet Lemmon? sortstop for the tigers in the 80&#39;s and 90&#39;s? he was a witness, and he studied with Lou Wittaker... does that mean ALL JWs know about baseball? what about Danny Granger, the JW that plays for the Pacers? do you DARE sit in judgement of them as well??
how about ALL of these people who were either JWs, or associated with them at one time http://www.adherents.com/largecom/fam_jw.html
are they ALL bad people (read "apostate") because history remembers their name?



I don&#39;t think this is an attack on Prince but on what the whole thing stands for. Celebrity cult and the music industry is wrecking the minds of millions earth wide.[/b]

So is organized religion. so is sugar enhanced soda. so is global warming. so is trans-fats. the list goes on. The FACT is, at this point in Brother Nelson&#39;s professional career, he has taken GREAT strides in getting away from the record labels. he distributes his music now MOSTLY through his website. BUT, since most of the buying public know the "purple one", thats what they associate him with - it doesn&#39;t mean its true anymore.


Parents have become locked in a conflict between the media, music and their children, and are trying to understand a culture that is alien to them. As for young people they are having difficulty deciphering the difference between right and wrong as their values are shaped by what they see from their idols.[/b]

right and wrong as determined by WHO?? all you need to do is look at the 2 threads regarding marital affairs and oral sex to see that people like to put their opinions in place of FACT. look at you&#39;re OWN parents and the struggles THEY had with THEIR parents. in the 1950&#39;s Elvis was the devil incarnate... a FAR cry from 2Live Crew. oh, and you forgot one very important thing.... values of young people are also shaped by their parents... else, why drag your kids to the meetings when most don&#39;t want to go...



So when I see these people strutting there thing and watch them being idolized by millions I just want to vomit.[/b]

So, since Jesus is idolized, he makes you sick? I&#39;m pretty sure what you meant was that the people DOING the idolizing make you sick... that doesn&#39;t mean that Brother Nelson should.



Today music serves for youth as the "opiate of the masses".[/b]

Thats only because religion, those who have been entrusted with bringing them closer to Jehovah have failed miserably...

[Sketch]

It looks to me that everyone is coming down on Brother Nelson because he is a man of fortune and fame. because he&#39;s rich and "powerfull"... I&#39;ve got news for you... so was Abraham... so was Jacob... so was David, and Solomon, and Moses, and Job.... so were a LOT of people in biblical times who are now considered role models... and THEY didn&#39;t spend every waking minute preaching to people. A LOT of them let their actions do the talking... would ANY of you consider Abraham to be a bad example simply because he had a large flock? what about Job? Jacob was 2nd in command in Egypt for a while... was he a bad man? you don&#39;t know EVERYTHING that happened in his life... only whats in the bible... Jacob married "outside" of Jehovahs people... does that make him a heathen? no. so why are you judging Brother Nelson?

[olrono]

It looks to me that everyone is coming down on Brother Nelson because he is a man of fortune and fame. because he&#39;s rich and "powerfull"... I&#39;ve got news for you... so was Abraham... so was Jacob... so was David, and Solomon, and Moses, and Job.... so were a LOT of people in biblical times who are now considered role models... and THEY didn&#39;t spend every waking minute preaching to people. A LOT of them let their actions do the talking... would ANY of you consider Abraham to be a bad example simply because he had a large flock? what about Job? Jacob was 2nd in command in Egypt for a while... was he a bad man? you don&#39;t know EVERYTHING that happened in his life... only whats in the bible... Jacob married "outside" of Jehovahs people... does that make him a heathen? no. so why are you judging Brother Nelson?[/b]

I think we are all forgetting we are to judge the fruits, we don’t have to judge the people, that will be Jesus’s job given to him by Jehovah God. We are supposed to judge the fruit, now ask your self this… Would Prince do that ‘thing’ with the guitar on the platform at an assembly? Come on, grow up, you don’t have to know the man or have a drink with anyone to know that. That’s all the brothers are trying to say.

[dgibson]

So, I guess Prince is considered by some, to be "living in sin"?

[olrono]

So, I guess Prince is considered by some, to be "living in sin"?[/b]

Nobody said that, only that ‘stunt’ he did with the guitar wasn’t setting a good Christian example.

[Kenneth]

oh, and you forgot one very important thing.... values of young people are also shaped by their parents... else, why drag your kids to the meetings when most don&#39;t want to go[/b]

I’m not sure if you have children but for some of us we have done our best for them. Brought them up in the ways of the truth. Taught them the difference between right and wrong. Got them to all the meetings, prayed with them, prayed for them. Taught them the bible. In fact there are parents out there who could have done no more for their children than they have. And what happens in the teenage years they tune into the gods of music.

Music like so many other things of beauty created by Jehovah has been twisted into Satan’s way of thinking and doing things. My heart goes out to parent who have done all they can for their children. Never give up hope as so many come back when they realise that the gods of rock and roll will be crushed to pulp in the day of Jehovah’s anger.

Lets ask ourselves what would teenagers be like today if music were to be played the way Jehovah intended it to be.


Kenneth</span>

[Sketch]

only that &#39;stunt&#39; he did with the guitar wasn&#39;t setting a good Christian example.[/b]

Says WHO?? you?? YOU are now the end-all-be-all of what is a "good christian example"? The ONLY thing that made that sillouette any different from a standard guitar was the curved thing that some said looked like a tail. Other than that please explain to me how to hold a regular guitar without having the neck look like a phalic symbol on a sillouette to someone who WANTS to see a phalic symbol?

If you&#39;ve never even played the guitar, I&#39;m sure you&#39;ve played AIR guitar... where is your cord hand? and at what angle could it NOT look like you&#39;re playing with your penis?

Whats next? are you wanting to ban Dancing ?? Do those elvis presley pelvic gyrations get you upset too?

[Sketch]

I&#39;m not sure if you have children but for some of us we have done our best for them. Brought them up in the ways of the truth. Taught them the difference between right and wrong. Got them to all the meetings, prayed with them, prayed for them. Taught them the bible. In fact there are parents out there who could have done no more for their children than they have.[/b]

Yes, I have a 16 month old daughter... and yes, my dad dragged me to meetings... in fact, he made me go so much that I hated it - as people naturally grow to HATE what they are FORCED to do... in fact, being forced to go to a meeting place of two-faced whores is one of the many issues is have today. The TEACHINGS did however, give me a stable foundation, and it kept me out of trouble. But it didn&#39;t give me the chance to make my own mistakes.... and as much as it SOUNDS like a good thing, there really ARE psychological reasons as to why people need to make their OWN mistakes...



Lets ask ourselves what would teenagers be like today if music were to be played the way Jehovah intended it to be.[/b]

Please explain how JEHOVAH intended music to be? It may be safe to say that a lot of the music with pornographic/fornicative lyrics can be ruled out - per the bible - but then, the bible itself is FULL of blasphemy and fornication.... but other than the obvious, tell us? does Jehovah prefer Barbara Mandrell over Pearl Jam? Black Sabbath over Iron Butterfly? Is he a Beatles guy or an Elvis guy? he just HAS to love Hendrix... i mean, who DOESN&#39;T love Hendrix??

[olrono]

<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>Look, you know you don’t have to answer to Gramps here; we all have to answer to Jehovah, no? And remember, I want to befriend you, because when I was young (That used to be a name of a song I liked) I was into music too and looked up to such ones.

[Kenneth]

Firstly I want to address this idea of being dragged to the meetings. Never once did I drag my children to the meeting, I took them. The earlier years were easier as we were able to study the material and they took part in the program. I encouraged them to give answers in their own words, I was never sure of what they were going to say but it was better than some pre-prepared answer. When they were younger I was an idealist and believe that the truth was so powerful that if I taught them correctly they would never leave. How wrong I was. It&#39;s not until you get older that you come to realise just how powerful Satan&#39;s world really is. We were a family who were cocooned in the Watchtower society, it govern our every action and thought. I saw the Watchtower as a protection, a kind of being in a cage in a world of sharks. Then one day one of us left the cage and the sharks were waiting. In my son&#39;s case it was for the god of music, it was and still his idol. And until he sees through it nothing will change.

The difficulty is that the music of today permeates through the air, it has a destructive influence and Satan is fully aware of that. He&#39;s using it to the full. Here an extract from an Awake



The Pressures

Facing Today&#39;s Youths
"Consider, for example, music videos. Parents are often shocked at just how graphic and sexually explicit some of these videos are. Can they really affect the way some teenagers behave? According to one study of 500 college students, "violent music lyrics increase aggressive thoughts and feelings." According to another recent study, "teens who spend more time watching the sex and violence depicted in . . . &#39;gangsta&#39; rap music videos are more likely to practice these behaviors in real life." This study of over 500 girls revealed that heavy viewers of gangsta videos were more likely to hit a teacher, get arrested, and have multiple sexual partners." [/b]http://www.watchtower.org/library/g/2005/4/8/article_02.htm



The Global Appeal of
LATIN MUSIC

"Despite the prevalence of immoral elements in today&#39;s entertainment, there is still a great variety of wholesome music that one can enjoy. Music is a beautiful gift from God, and the Bible says that there is "a time for every matter or purpose under heaven . . . , a time to mourn and a time to dance." (Ecclesiastes 3:1, 4, The Amplified Bible) If you like lively, contagiously happy music, you will surely enjoy listening and dancing to the appealing rhythms of Latin music, doing so in moderation and with Christian balance.—1 Corinthians 10:31; Philippians 4:8."[/b]

http://www.watchtower.org/library/g/1998/8/8/article_01.htm

So not all music is bad, it&#39;s just the idolatry and immorality that&#39;s associated with it that&#39;s the problem. If a Christian is a musician then he has to accept the responsibility that goes with it. And if one is seen as a god to the point of others bowing to you its then time to bow out yourself.

Sketch, this statement floored me. "But it didn&#39;t give me the chance to make my own mistakes.... and as much as it SOUNDS like a good thing, there really ARE psychological reasons as to why people need to make their OWN mistakes..."

What happens when our children say to us we are going to learn from our own mistakes, are you just going to sit back and let it happen and say nothing? I hope not. What happens when a teenager goes out and either gets pregnant or gets someone else pregnant are they to say &#39;well I have to learn the hard way&#39;. What happens when a teenager gets aids? There was a young man in the school I attended I didn&#39;t know it at the time but he was brought up as JW&#39;s. Some year&#39;s later he learn the hard way. I heard he did from aids. The sad thing was he started coming back to the meetings but it was to late for him. The bible gives us plenty of warning and examples, why do you think they are there. There not there to entertain us but are there as a warning that the end of the system has arrive, we don&#39;t have time to experiment, the end is to close.

Kenneth

[Shibboleth]

I think alot of people here have some real passionate views on music. It really shows how much of a pull music has towards us all.

When I was in bands I got pulled into drugs and immorality. Even in my witness band we couldn&#39;t escape that pull. Some of those witness girls are worse then catholic school girls.

I had to learn the hard way. I was grown up and I had my own life and I had to make my own choices. realizing the mistakes I had made I kinda wish now that I made some different choices. But if I did have it all to do over again I probably would have ended up doing the same thing all over again. I can look back now and say "Man that was really stupid." But it was one of the best learning experiences I could have ever had.

When I was growing up I was the silent shy kid who had 2 really close friends in the hall. No one thought that we would get into trouble. In fact one of the biggest scandels in my hall involved ministerial servants and regular pioneers sneaking into someone&#39;s pool and going skinny dipping. I wasn&#39;t part of that since I stayed to myself, but that didn&#39;t mean we didn&#39;t cause trouble. I guess what I am saying is, that even though you have friends in the hall, sometimes they can be just as bad as worldly people. We have to watch our association and our kids association whether it is music or worldly or people in the hall.

Music is part of the equation, but we just need to learn balance.

Regards,

Shibboleth

[Sketch]

That Guitar is in the shape of an Egyptian symbol of the Sun, in the form of a cross or ankh, which represents a male and female engaged, (if you know what I mean?) To have this symbol in a public venue can only mean one thing, and that is not Christian. I am sorry, there could not be a symbol more wrong to have and be a JW.[/b]

Really? well, lets see what Brother Nelson had to say about why he changed his name to an unpronouncable symbol:
"The first step I have taken towards the ultimate goal of emancipation from the chains that bind me to Warner Bros. was to change my name from Prince to "Prince Image". Prince is the name that my Mother gave me at birth. Warner Bros. took the name, trademarked it, and used it as the main marketing tool to promote all of the music that I wrote. The company owns the name Prince and all related music marketed under Prince. I became merely a pawn used to produce more money for Warner Bros.… I was born Prince and did not want to adopt another conventional name. The only acceptable replacement for my name, and my identity, was "Prince Image" a symbol with no pronunciation, that is a representation of me and what my music is about. This symbol is present in my work over the years; it is a concept that has evolved from my frustration; it is who I am. It is my name."

Below, I&#39;ve pasted both the Egyptian-Ankh - what You and Brother King state as the basis for Brother Nelson&#39;s symbol. Where you both received your information, I have no idea. It kinda looks like an old-time bonnet to me.... and I&#39;ve also pasted the actual symbol that brother Nelson uses. as you see them side by side, you may indeed see some simularities. the closed
circle-like object at the top, the vertical and horizontal lines... does this mean i can&#39;t play hangman anymore? if you actually read the wiki article that Brother King cited, it states in the very first line "The ankh (pronunced /æŋk/ in English, symbol ☥) was the Egyptian hieroglyphic character that stood for the word ʿnḫ, meaning life. " yes, it also states that it COULD be a symbol for "womb", or even one of the thoracic vertebre&#39;s of the Bull. it COULD mean a LOT of things. but the one thing for sure that we know of is that it was the hieroglyphic for "Life".

you STATE as FACT that brother Nelson&#39;s symbol "...the shape of an Egyptian symbol of the Sun, in the form of a cross or ankh, which represents a male and female engaged". This is FALSE. Assuming that you were referring to the Egyptian Ankh, it is even STILL only SPECULATION. so the idea that you STATE AS FACT - 1. labels you as Biased, and 2. shows your frame of mind to take a THEORY and turn it into FACT. kinda like evolution. kinda like EVERYONE else who assumes that THEIR opinion is FACT. It Isn&#39;t.

Here is what the wiki article says:
"It has been SUGGESTED that it combines the male and female symbols of Osiris (the cross) and Isis (the oval) and therefore signifies the union of heaven and earth[citation needed]. As a hieroglyph, it likely encompassed a range of meanings depending on context, but all of these expressions were centered around the concept of life or life force."
(bold underline & upper case added for emphasis). you read this, and the FACT that there is no citation for this little sentence that you take as FACT. you are seeing what you WANT to see.



Firstly I want to address this idea of being dragged to the meetings. Never once did I drag my children to the meeting... I took them. The earlier years were easier as we were able to study the material and they took part in the program. I encouraged them to give answers in their own words, I was never sure of what they were going to say but it was better than some pre-prepared answer.[/b]

Guilty conscience?? I never said you did... I only speak of myself, and most of the "youngsters" that I grew up with. My dad doesn&#39;t think he dragged us either... but he did, and when I was 10 or so I would tell my dad that I wanted to be a pioneer and go to bethel... because I knew thats what he wanted to hear.


So not all music is bad, it&#39;s just the idolatry and immorality that&#39;s associated with it that&#39;s the problem. If a Christian is a musician then he has to accept the responsibility that goes with it.[/b]

Please explain how brother Nelson is responsible for the immorality associated with his music when he is not that person anymore? I mean, we have brothers and sisters who have done serious military time and killed more than a few people. they still draw pension checks and enjoy the benefits of having served their country in war. Yet, these men are allowed to be elders, pioneers, etc... do THEY hold LESS responsibility? if my elder was in Delta Force, or the SEALs, and killed more people than we can imagine, but has now rejected that life, has repented and held himself before Jehovah, is he still qualified to be an elder? why not this man? why not ANY man?


And if one is seen as a god to the point of others bowing to you its then time to bow out yourself.[/b]

so it&#39;s brother Nelson&#39;s fault that he&#39;s as good as he is? sounds like yours is a life doomed to mediocrity if you keep that mind set. Was Einstein guilty of that too? how about Lance Armstrong? Colon Powell? anyone who takes a title? like Father, or Deacon, or "The Honorable...", or pioneer or elder?


What happens when our children say to us we are going to learn from our own mistakes, are you just going to sit back and let it happen and say nothing? I hope not. What happens when a teenager goes out and either gets pregnant or gets someone else pregnant are they to say &#39;well I have to learn the hard way&#39;. What happens when a teenager gets aids?[/b]

Did I say that we couldn&#39;t TELL them what to do and what not to do? Did I say that we couldn&#39;t be role models and examples? do you even REMEMBER being a teenager? and FYI, both of my sisters got pregnant in their teens. one while she was a Jr. in high school - and YES, I HAVE dealt with kids with AIDs, and Cancer, and kids who are veggies due to huffing. so you want to tell me I don&#39;t know what I&#39;m talking about?... you know for a FACT that some kids just don&#39;t get it, and that some do things out of spite and some just because their parents said "No". and contrary to WTS belief, there is NO was to control your kid 24/7. and some DO need to experience it themselves. I had a screaming baby in the house my last 3 years of high school and the looks and jeers that came with it (both in school and the hall). I had all the motivation I needed NOT to get someone pregnant. It was not MY mistake, but I still had to deal with the consequences.


There was a young man in the school I attended I didn&#39;t know it at the time but he was brought up as JW&#39;s. Some year&#39;s later he learn the hard way. I heard he did from aids. The sad thing was he started coming back to the meetings but it was to late for him.[/b]

Why was it too late? how do you know he didn&#39;t repent or was forgiven by Jehovah before he died? do you mean he didn&#39;t receive MAN&#39;s forgiveness? that won&#39;t save you in the end.


I had to learn the hard way..... I can look back now and say "Man that was really stupid." But it was one of the best learning experiences I could have ever had.[/b]

You mean, you had to make your OWN mistakes??? even after ALL the examples you had??

Look, I&#39;m not trying to say the man should be idolized or worshipped or whatever. But he SHOULD be given the benefit of the doubt. thats what YOU people would want. thats what YOU people would expect. don&#39;t take that away from brother Nelson becauseyou have some pre-conceived notion of who he is and what he is like.

[olrono]

<div class='quotemain'>That Guitar is in the shape of an Egyptian symbol of the Sun, in the form of a cross or ankh, which represents a male and female engaged, (if you know what I mean?) To have this symbol in a public venue can only mean one thing, and that is not Christian. I am sorry, there could not be a symbol more wrong to have and be a JW.[/b]

Really? well, lets see what Brother Nelson had to say about why he changed his name to an unpronouncable symbol:
"The first step I have taken towards the ultimate goal of emancipation from the chains that bind me to Warner Bros. was to change my name from Prince to "Prince Image". Prince is the name that my Mother gave me at birth. Warner Bros. took the name, trademarked it, and used it as the main marketing tool to promote all of the music that I wrote. The company owns the name Prince and all related music marketed under Prince. I became merely a pawn used to produce more money for Warner Bros.… I was born Prince and did not want to adopt another conventional name. The only acceptable replacement for my name, and my identity, was "Prince Image" a symbol with no pronunciation, that is a representation of me and what my music is about. This symbol is present in my work over the years; it is a concept that has evolved from my frustration; it is who I am. It is my name."

Below, I&#39;ve pasted both the Egyptian-Ankh - what You and Brother King state as the basis for Brother Nelson&#39;s symbol. Where you both received your information, I have no idea. It kinda looks like an old-time bonnet to me.... and I&#39;ve also pasted the actual symbol that brother Nelson uses. as you see them side by side, you may indeed see some simularities. the closed
circle-like object at the top, the vertical and horizontal lines... does this mean i can&#39;t play hangman anymore? if you actually read the wiki article that Brother King cited, it states in the very first line "The ankh (pronunced /æŋk/ in English, symbol ☥) was the Egyptian hieroglyphic character that stood for the word ʿnḫ, meaning life. " yes, it also states that it COULD be a symbol for "womb", or even one of the thoracic vertebre&#39;s of the Bull. it COULD mean a LOT of things. but the one thing for sure that we know of is that it was the hieroglyphic for "Life".

you STATE as FACT that brother Nelson&#39;s symbol "...the shape of an Egyptian symbol of the Sun, in the form of a cross or ankh, which represents a male and female engaged". This is FALSE. Assuming that you were referring to the Egyptian Ankh, it is even STILL only SPECULATION. so the idea that you STATE AS FACT - 1. labels you as Biased, and 2. shows your frame of mind to take a THEORY and turn it into FACT. kinda like evolution. kinda like EVERYONE else who assumes that THEIR opinion is FACT. It Isn&#39;t.

Here is what the wiki article says:
"It has been SUGGESTED that it combines the male and female symbols of Osiris (the cross) and Isis (the oval) and therefore signifies the union of heaven and earth[citation needed]. As a hieroglyph, it likely encompassed a range of meanings depending on context, but all of these expressions were centered around the concept of life or life force."
(bold underline & upper case added for emphasis). you read this, and the FACT that there is no citation for this little sentence that you take as FACT. you are seeing what you WANT to see.



Firstly I want to address this idea of being dragged to the meetings. Never once did I drag my children to the meeting... I took them. The earlier years were easier as we were able to study the material and they took part in the program. I encouraged them to give answers in their own words, I was never sure of what they were going to say but it was better than some pre-prepared answer.[/b]

Guilty conscience?? I never said you did... I only speak of myself, and most of the "youngsters" that I grew up with. My dad doesn&#39;t think he dragged us either... but he did, and when I was 10 or so I would tell my dad that I wanted to be a pioneer and go to bethel... because I knew thats what he wanted to hear.


So not all music is bad, it&#39;s just the idolatry and immorality that&#39;s associated with it that&#39;s the problem. If a Christian is a musician then he has to accept the responsibility that goes with it.[/b]

Please explain how brother Nelson is responsible for the immorality associated with his music when he is not that person anymore? I mean, we have brothers and sisters who have done serious military time and killed more than a few people. they still draw pension checks and enjoy the benefits of having served their country in war. Yet, these men are allowed to be elders, pioneers, etc... do THEY hold LESS responsibility? if my elder was in Delta Force, or the SEALs, and killed more people than we can imagine, but has now rejected that life, has repented and held himself before Jehovah, is he still qualified to be an elder? why not this man? why not ANY man?


And if one is seen as a god to the point of others bowing to you its then time to bow out yourself.[/b]

so it&#39;s brother Nelson&#39;s fault that he&#39;s as good as he is? sounds like yours is a life doomed to mediocrity if you keep that mind set. Was Einstein guilty of that too? how about Lance Armstrong? Colon Powell? anyone who takes a title? like Father, or Deacon, or "The Honorable...", or pioneer or elder?


What happens when our children say to us we are going to learn from our own mistakes, are you just going to sit back and let it happen and say nothing? I hope not. What happens when a teenager goes out and either gets pregnant or gets someone else pregnant are they to say &#39;well I have to learn the hard way&#39;. What happens when a teenager gets aids?[/b]

Did I say that we couldn&#39;t TELL them what to do and what not to do? Did I say that we couldn&#39;t be role models and examples? do you even REMEMBER being a teenager? and FYI, both of my sisters got pregnant in their teens. one while she was a Jr. in high school - and YES, I HAVE dealt with kids with AIDs, and Cancer, and kids who are veggies due to huffing. so you want to tell me I don&#39;t know what I&#39;m talking about?... you know for a FACT that some kids just don&#39;t get it, and that some do things out of spite and some just because their parents said "No". and contrary to WTS belief, there is NO was to control your kid 24/7. and some DO need to experience it themselves. I had a screaming baby in the house my last 3 years of high school and the looks and jeers that came with it (both in school and the hall). I had all the motivation I needed NOT to get someone pregnant. It was not MY mistake, but I still had to deal with the consequences.


There was a young man in the school I attended I didn&#39;t know it at the time but he was brought up as JW&#39;s. Some year&#39;s later he learn the hard way. I heard he did from aids. The sad thing was he started coming back to the meetings but it was to late for him.[/b]

Why was it too late? how do you know he didn&#39;t repent or was forgiven by Jehovah before he died? do you mean he didn&#39;t receive MAN&#39;s forgiveness? that won&#39;t save you in the end.


I had to learn the hard way..... I can look back now and say "Man that was really stupid." But it was one of the best learning experiences I could have ever had.[/b]

You mean, you had to make your OWN mistakes??? even after ALL the examples you had??

Look, I&#39;m not trying to say the man should be idolized or worshipped or whatever. But he SHOULD be given the benefit of the doubt. thats what YOU people would want. thats what YOU people would expect. don&#39;t take that away from brother Nelson becauseyou have some pre-conceived notion of who he is and what he is like.
[/b][/quote]
You come in “Brother Nelsons” defense, I have a “feeling” you are him? I mean, no one brought up anything about his Name? And I didn’t say it was an anhk, I said it was in the shape of one. And where do you think “life” comes from anyway? Don’t believe me, take a picture of that “symbol” down to any astrologer or palm reader in your town, and ask them what it means. Or better yet, if you are still even going to meetings, ask one of your Elders what they think of this symbol and give them your arguments in favor of it, that’s who you have to convince and don’t be surprised if you get a little talk in the back room ether. Oh, you never said if you play the guitar?

[DoubtingThomas]

I had no idea what an ankh was until reading this thread. Being that I am a Doubting Thomas (and I always try to give everyone else the benefit of the doubt) as anyone given thought to the possibility that our Brother Prince may not know what an ankh is? Maybe he just thought he had a cool looking guitar. That is all I thought. But I now see that the ankh symbol, which his guitar does vaguely resemble, has ties to Egyptian Gods and sex symbols. But do you know that the shape of a baseball diamond also has ties to false worship. Should we all stop playing softball now? Personally ... if I thought I owned something or was doing something that might sincerely stumble another, I would stop doing it. Maybe Prince is unaware he could be stumbling others. But maybe he loves Jehovah enough that if it was brought to his attention, he would change guitars. And maybe some of us are being a little judgemental about a Brother, rather than doing the scriptural thing and going to our brother if he has offended us. Prince does have a web site and email address if you want to communicate these things to him as a Christian and in a loving Christian like manner, rather than gossipping about him to others on this forum. Maybe we should stop gossipping about the man, when we haven&#39;t applied the words of our Lord, and gone to him first about his alleged "sin" against us. I am sure that if he was sinning regarding this that his congregation elders would have already discussed the matter with him. But who knows? Maybe not. If it really bothered me, and I thought others might be stumbled, I would write or email my brother to let him know. At least it would be off my chest that way. Some of us here criticize the Watchtower or the congregation elders for being so critical and judgemental, but some of is may be doing the same thing with our Brothers and Sisters on this DB too. Why can&#39;t we all just get along here? On some things, we just need to agree to disagree. But let&#39;s do it respectfully at least.

[Nambo]

Well its certainly more than just us here debating this subject,
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070206/ap_en_...HNlYwN5bnN0b3J5 (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070206/ap_en_mu/prince_super_bowl;_ylt=AhVKOe6Km3a_.coF7em6XfQnHL8 C;_ylu=X3oDMTBidHQxYjh2BHNlYwN5bnN0b3J5)

And I had a look at Princes website where similar discussions, both for and against are being discussed http://www.prince.org/msg/7/216977
So Prince himself will be aware of the controvesy.

And a would guess most of these people are not even JWs looking to find fault with and judge thier brother such as Steve Colbert who was obviously amused at the reaction against a "rock and roll deviant" with a "demonic guitar phallas".
The point being not to critise Prince for still being a sucessfull performer but to question if as a known practicing Jehovahs Witness to the world, wiether it was prudent to perform a stunt that even a lot of the world finds debatable.
At least now that he is a JW he doesnt ejaculate water out of the end of his guitar, but isnt he still doing half of that same act with the conatations being known by his fans?

When I came in the truth, one sisters Mum was offered to throw away her prize collection of Apostle spoons in case it stumbled me, of course I said not to be so silly, but bearing Jehovahs name does carry some responsibility in how we appear to others.

[Candace]

I had no idea what an ankh was until reading this thread. Being that I am a Doubting Thomas (and I always try to give everyone else the benefit of the doubt) as anyone given thought to the possibility that our Brother Prince may not know what an ankh is? Maybe he just thought he had a cool looking guitar. That is all I thought. But I now see that the ankh symbol, which his guitar does vaguely resemble, has ties to Egyptian Gods and sex symbols. But do you know that the shape of a baseball diamond also has ties to false worship. Should we all stop playing softball now? Personally ... if I thought I owned something or was doing something that might sincerely stumble another, I would stop doing it. Maybe Prince is unaware he could be stumbling others. But maybe he loves Jehovah enough that if it was brought to his attention, he would change guitars. And maybe some of us are being a little judgemental about a Brother, rather than doing the scriptural thing and going to our brother if he has offended us. Prince does have a web site and email address if you want to communicate these things to him as a Christian and in a loving Christian like manner, rather than gossipping about him to others on this forum. Maybe we should stop gossipping about the man, when we haven&#39;t applied the words of our Lord, and gone to him first about his alleged "sin" against us. I am sure that if he was sinning regarding this that his congregation elders would have already discussed the matter with him. But who knows? Maybe not. If it really bothered me, and I thought others might be stumbled, I would write or email my brother to let him know. At least it would be off my chest that way. Some of us here criticize the Watchtower or the congregation elders for being so critical and judgemental, but some of is may be doing the same thing with our Brothers and Sisters on this DB too. Why can&#39;t we all just get along here? On some things, we just need to agree to disagree. But let&#39;s do it respectfully at least.[/b]

Amen! We could have 6 million threads in here, Is (Bro. or Sis. So-and-so) Still A Witness?

I have to get back to working on my rafter.....see you later!

[Kenneth]

"As the 48-year-old rock star let rip, the silhouette cast by his figure and his guitar (shaped like the singer&#39;s symbol) had phallic connotations for some."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070206/ap_en_...HNlYwN5bnN0b3J5 (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070206/ap_en_mu/prince_super_bowl;_ylt=AhVKOe6Km3a_.coF7em6XfQnHL8 C;_ylu=X3oDMTBidHQxYjh2BHNlYwN5bnN0b3J5)

Look up the word phallic

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp...7&dict=CALD (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=59287&dict=CALD)

"Keep on making sure of what is acceptable to the Lord; 11 and quit sharing with [them] in the unfruitful works"


"Why was it too late? how do you know he didn&#39;t repent or was forgiven by Jehovah before he died? do you mean he didn&#39;t receive MAN&#39;s forgiveness? that won&#39;t save you in the end."[/b]What I meant was that he had not listen to reason, had he&#39; listened he would not have followed the course of immorality and caught AIDS. And now he&#39;s dead. Yes he obviously had some remorse by the very fact he was going back to the meetings. I feel confident that Jehovah will extend his mercy and give the man a second chance in the resurrection.

"Guilty conscience?? "
And no I don&#39;t have a guilty conscience as I believed I did the right thing by taking them to the meetings. There are young people in the congregation I attend who I take my hat off too. They are fighting to do the right thing, and as I have seen them mature it restores my faith in some of the youth of today. I&#39;ve spoke to quite a few teenagers about growing up in truth and even though they have had to deal with issues that are incidental to youth they came through much of it as a result of listening to the elders and others who have faced similar experiences. I wonder what would have happen to them had they followed their hearts and decided to learn from their mistakes. They would no doubt have got their fingers burned and suffered the emotional scares that comes form doing your own thing.


Please explain how brother Nelson is responsible for the immorality associated with his music when he is not that person anymore?[/b]

I did not say that Prince was responsible for encouraging immorality in his music. I was speaking generally. However, I can assure you that many JWs would be offended by his showmanship as it has a worldly spirit about it. And as for his guitar it was certainly suggestive and catered to fleshly desires.

Whether Prince has clean lyrics or not is neither here nor there. All of those wishing to serve Jehovah have the responsibility of bearing his name. As Paul wrote to the Corinthians: "It seems to me that God has put us the apostles last on exhibition as men appointed to death, because we have become a theatrical spectacle to the world, and to angels, and to men."—1 Cor. 4:9.

Sketch I don&#39;t mean to rattle your cage but we are just that a "theatrical spectacle to the world". Those who strut their stuff on stage are fully aware that people treat them in a god like fashion. Prince is no exception to the rule. He and others like him who profess God have a collective responsibility to up hold that name.

Kenneth

[Sketch]

"As the 48-year-old rock star let rip, the silhouette cast by his figure and his guitar (shaped like the singer&#39;s symbol) had phallic connotations for some."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070206/ap_en_...HNlYwN5bnN0b3J5 (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070206/ap_en_mu/prince_super_bowl;_ylt=AhVKOe6Km3a_.coF7em6XfQnHL8 C;_ylu=X3oDMTBidHQxYjh2BHNlYwN5bnN0b3J5)[/b]

SOME does not mean ALL... it may be safe to say too that a LOT of these people are the right wing christian fundies that elected G.W. Bush.... TWICE.... pardon me if I don&#39;t outright accept the opinions of extremists.


Look up the word phallic
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp...7&dict=CALD (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=59287&dict=CALD)[/b]

a LOT of things have a phallic origin... the May pole, some say the christmas tree, etc... The site you quote states the definition of phallic:
"symbolic of, shaped like, or related to the penis:"... so, a pen or pencil could be phallic. a tent pole, a steel girder, a coke bottle, a pringles can, an athletic cup, even underwear can be considered phallic as it could be "symbolic" of the male member. How about Pants? Men&#39;s room signs show a person with pants (as opposed to a person with a skirt) to designate which is which? I&#39;ll go with Pants. where do you draw the line? why does YOUR line have to be everyone else&#39;s?


What I meant was that he had not listen to reason, had he&#39; listened he would not have followed the course of immorality and caught AIDS. And now he&#39;s dead.[/b]

Thank you for clarifying my point. This man obviously did not learn anything from the mistakes of others - the many MANY others. Regardless of how many times he saw it happen to someone, or was told, or the 100&#39;s of times he read it in the bible... he had to learn for himself. I&#39;m sure that lesson was old hat by the time he passed.


There are young people in the congregation I attend who I take my hat off too. They are fighting to do the right thing, and as I have seen them mature it restores my faith in some of the youth of today.[/b]

I honestly hope it works out for them. I can only speak from my experience. kids are devious little things. they know how to get what they want. I even had one friend who got baptized and jumped through all the WTS hoops so his folks would buy him a Nintendo 64... good motive there... but again, thats just my experience in a congragation I know to be screwed up - at the time.


They would no doubt have got their fingers burned and suffered the emotional scares that comes form doing your own thing.[/b]

Have you ever known a kid to touch a hot stove twice? I can&#39;t say that I do... and those that continously make the same mistake over and over again will CONTINUE to make the same mistakes UNTIL they get it. simply listening to a speech, talk, or WT article will not change that. There has to be PAIN for someone to change.... Maybe a WT article or what have you, can stir up enough emotional pain in one&#39;s conscience, but in the end, its the pain and the person&#39;s reaction to that pain that causes the change.


I can assure you that many JWs would be offended by his showmanship as it has a worldly spirit about it. And as for his guitar it was certainly suggestive that catered to fleshly desires.[/b]

I can ASSURE you that the JWs who J-walk at my DC in Richmond EVERY summer may offend people as it is a worldly offense and there are several announcements that tell us to use the cross-walks. I&#39;m sure the police on duty outside find it interesting. and there are literally HUNDREDS if not more that do it. I will not defend my actions with the argument that I was "stumbled". Everything I do is a choice. I know what the guidelines are. If I have a question, I bring it up here, or talk to someone else. THEN I make my decision - hopefully the right one, but obviously not all the time.

As for the guitar, it was only suggestive to those who have repressed sexual urges... like most of the conservative JWs - as that seems to be on their mind more than most others... I saw nothing sexual over it... although I was amused when someone mentioned the "tail"... that was funny.


Those who strut their stuff on stage are fully aware that people treat them in a god like fashion. Prince is no exception to the rule. He and others like him who profess God have a collective responsibility to up hold that name.[/b]

I&#39;m still not seeing how that concert was disrespectful to Jehovah. I can see how some would think certain times were distasteful, but thats them. thats what THEY want to see. not me. Their opinion is not MY opinion and I don&#39;t like it when people tell me how to feel about something. I know what its like to be judged for something I didnt do. I know what its like to be judged by people who&#39;ve never walked in my shoes and who don&#39;t know me. All I&#39;ve ever asked on this thread is that people NOT JUDGE the man. why is that so difficult? this is NOT a new concept...

[Sketch]

<div class='quotemain'> - and now, its been hijacked by the most evil of evils (so far) and most people only know it as the symbol of the Nazis.

And no, I can not play the guitar... thats why we have Joe Satriani, and Yngwie Malmsteen - although i think Yngwie has a few screws loose...

[Kenneth]

For me Sketch its simple we are as Paul said a "theatrical spectacle to the world". As Christians’ we have to think carefully about our actions as not to bring reproach upon Gods name. However, I appreciate that we are not going to agree on the matter. But in my opinion and this is my opinion only that we would be better off steering clear of theses venues as they display the spirit of the world. And for those who are partaking for the sake of their so-called careers they need to think long and hard about how involved they are in promoting the world’s spirit. That’s my opinion on the matter and I shall post no more on this thread as it becoming a merry-go-round.


Kenneth

[Sketch]

That&#39;s my opinion on the matter and I shall post no more on this thread as it becoming a merry-go-round.[/b]

Thats fine, I just hope you don&#39;t judge people... People have fun burning ants with the magnifying glass, until its turned around and pointed at them....

[Shibboleth]

Prince&#39;s symbol is not an ankh it is the symbols of male and female united together.

Man, I didn&#39;t start this thread to have a huge debate if Prince was doing the Christian thing I was just curious if he was still a witness. I never knew it was bad to be curious about another person before. I&#39;m always interested in other people not to the point of being obsessive, but in a caring sort of way. I don&#39;t get all hog wild over people in the entertainment industry. I was am just interested in how people who are witnesses can keep it together in spite of huge oppositons and traps. That&#39;s human nature, to be interested in one another.

Some people here are just reading way to deep into the matter.


Regards,

Shibboleth

[olrono]

Prince&#39;s symbol is not an ankh it is the symbols of male and female united together.

Man, I didn&#39;t start this thread to have a huge debate if Prince was doing the Christian thing I was just curious if he was still a witness. I never knew it was bad to be curious about another person before. I&#39;m always interested in other people not to the point of being obsessive, but in a caring sort of way. I don&#39;t get all hog wild over people in the entertainment industry. I was am just interested in how people who are witnesses can keep it together in spite of huge oppositons and traps. That&#39;s human nature, to be interested in one another.

Some people here are just reading way to deep into the matter.


Regards,

Shibboleth[/b]

<span style="font-family:Times New Roman">This symbol my not be important to you, but it is telling the world, who ever is using it is an “Adept” of the Mystery Schools. I learned of this maybe when you were still in diapers, hence the Gramps comment. Don’t forget when Jehovah let “She Bears” come out from the woods to get those young boys making ridicule of Elijah, talk about “judging people”, you should worry how Jehovah judges!

[olrono]

Sorry “Shibboleth” my ending comments are not necessarily directed to you, for I haven’t learned how to use the “quote” function to get your first paragraph, ok? And I should say, We and not “you”. Thank You! Agape, O’l Rono

[Sketch]

[/b][/quote]

So, you are now equating me calling you "gramps" with you saying that "Prince" is not being a good christian? You&#39;re saying that SHE BEARS might come get me because I called you "gramps"? if thats your "esoteric" knowledge, i guess I don&#39;t have any... It&#39;s a good thing you didn&#39;t assume that I needed to "grow up".... oh, wait... would THAT be judging me too? not in the "esoteric" way of looking at things i guess...

[Shibboleth]

olrono, you are right about the ankh, but I don&#39;t get all my information from google or wiki or yahoo searches. I have a pretty extensive library and I read alot of other sources. I had a bunch of books on Egyptology and I must have missed that portion on the ankh (plus it has been a long time since I read any of them since I have been doing other things)

Thanks for the correction.