Natural Movement

[Candace]

I enjoyed reading the discussion of the blood issue here (http://e-watchman.com/commentaries/print/jehovahs-witnesses-bloodless-surgery-blood.html). It was a very humbling experience. One issue that I did not see covered there was "natural movement." Years ago, when the issue of accepting or not accepting certain blood fractions came up, I did a lot of research on the matter. You can find references to the natural movement of blood fractions in the WT 6/1/90 QFR and 6/15/04 QFR. One quote from the ´04 QFR is:

"Some Christians may conclude that since blood fractions can pass to another person in this natural setting, they could accept a blood fraction derived from blood plasma or cells."

Recently, I came across information on the internet that states that virtually all components of blood have natural movement between a mother and her fetus. Some have drawn the conclusion that this natural movement would basically allow a person to conscientiously accept any component of blood that would be involved in this natural movement.

How accurate is the statement that virtually all components of blood have natural movement between a mother and her fetus? Or is that a little trap Satan laid out?

Assuming natural movement is a reality for virtually all blood components, would that have any effect on the admonition to abstain from blood? In other words, if a component such as the white blood cell, red blood cell, platelets, or plasma were proven to have natural movement between a mother and a fetus, does that mean it should now be considered a matter of conscience, and not be under the "unacceptable" list?

[Nash]

Hi Candace! :)

Welcome to the forum.

Nash

[Candace]

Thank you. It's nice to be here.

[Warren]

Assuming natural movement is a reality for virtually all blood components, would that have any effect on the admonition to abstain from blood?[/b]

Assuming the "natural movement" argument is valid, what would be left to abstain from?

[Candace]

Good point. I had to get rid of the natural movement idea in order to understand Jehovah's viewpoint.

[Warren]

More relevant to the issue of abstaining from blood is why does the Society approve of medical procedures wherein JW's can have blood removed and later injected back into their veins? How is this abstaining from blood?

[Sketch]

Along with these questions, I have to ask if it is acceptable to GIVE blood. I mean, we all CAN use the fractions if we so choose, so is there anything - scripturally - that prevents us from GIVING blood?

[Candace]

The mailbag question and answer page helped me to reason on the matter. Click here (http://e-watchman.com/commentaries/print/jehovahs-witnesses-bloodless-surgery-blood.html).

I hope it's helpful for you, too.

[Kenneth]

<span style="font-family:Garamond">And Some common sense.





Kenneth

[Warren]

I see nothing in the mailbag question and answer page that deals with JW&#39;s being able to have blood removed and later injected back into their veins. If you think this is compatible with abstaining from blood then please explain why.

[Kenneth]

Apparently it&#39;s a matter of conscience

[Candace]

Warren, the part of the mailbag discussions that helped me was the discussion of a person&#39;s conscience. I had to read that part about conscience several times, before I understood the issue.

[Warren]

If it&#39;s a matter of conscience that blood removed from one&#39;s body for a few hours can be be injected back into one&#39;s veins then why isn&#39;t it a matter of conscience if a JW wants to donate their blood for an operation a few weeks later?

[Sketch]

<span style="font-family:Garamond">And Some common sense.[/b]

I understand that these scriptures state that it is a bad thing to eat/ingest/take in blood. But they don&#39;t answer the question "If fractions are "okay" to take, then why can we not give? I mean, its not scripturally ILLEGAL to BLEED...

[Warren]

JW&#39;s are allowed to give and receive blood in the following manner:

They can give some of their blood to a nurse, it is then stored while it is taken to a laboratory, treated chemically or with radiation, and later transfused back into them as part of a "current therapy".

But JW&#39;s are forbidden by the Society from having their blood removed, stored, and put back into them a few weeks later during an operation. Doesn&#39;t matter what their conscience tells them. Evidently the Society thinks it matters how long blood is stored. The scriptural basis for this policy eludes me.

[Candace]

JW&#39;s are allowed to give and receive blood in the following manner:

They can give some of their blood to a nurse, it is then taken to a laboratory, stored for a while, treated chemically or with radiation, stored some more and later transfused back into them as part of a "current therapy".

But JW&#39;s are forbidden by the Society from having their blood removed, stored, and put back into them a few weeks later during an operation. Evidently the Society thinks it matters how long blood is stored. The scriptural basis for this policy eludes me.[/b]



Maybe all these conscience issues are a test. :whisper.sml:

[Warren]

Yes, as JW&#39;s we must allow the Society to impose its conscience on us or else we get disfellowshipped. Obeying God as ruler rather than men is indeed a test. Acts 5:29

The problem for me isn&#39;t in refusing blood transfusions but in teaching the Society&#39;s entire blood policy to new ones. I think certain aspects of the Society&#39;s blood policy is in error so how do I teach it to others as truth?

[Candace]

Personally, I would give them the resources (literature), teach them how to research the matter (using the index or cdrom), emphasize approaching Jehovah in prayer, and say, "If you have any questions, I&#39;m sure one of the elders would be happy to help." If they asked for my opinion, I would tell them, "There&#39;s a lot of conscience matters when it comes to this issue, and I wouldn&#39;t want to impose my conscience on anyone."

[Candace]

Click here (http://e-watchman.com/mailbag/2003/march-9-2003.html) for another mailbag discussion. It says it way better than I can!

It&#39;s the second question from the bottom.

[Warren]

The mailbag discussion has absolutely nothing to do with the issue I brought up. The mailbag discussion is about the use of blood fractions. The issue I&#39;ve raised is about the use of whole blood! The Society is telling us that we can have transfusions of whole blood if it is our own blood and if it is part of a "current therapy", but they will disfellowshipped us if we pre-donate our blood and have it put back into our body a few weeks later during an operation.

Evidently the Society has come up with a secret time limit on how long one&#39;s blood can be out of one&#39;s body. After that our precious blood has to be thrown out like garbage rather than put back into us to resume it&#39;s life sustaining function.

Is this policy based on Scripture? Not that I can tell. It looks to me like the Society is imposing its conscience on the rest of us. I think they should allow us to make our own decision on this matter according to our conscience.

[Sketch]

The mailbag discussion has absolutely nothing to do with the issue I brought up.[/b]

I think Candace was replying to me... Thanks Candace...

[Candace]

I asked my spouse the same question about how long can blood be out of the body. I didn&#39;t get a satisfactory answer either. Maybe someone else can help you understand how your own conscience plays a part in these decisions better than I can. I have a hard time with all these new aspects to consider, it gets confusing to me too.

[Warren]

Sketch, this was your last question:

" I understand that these scriptures state that it is a bad thing to eat/ingest/take in blood. But they don&#39;t answer the question "If fractions are "okay" to take, then why can we not give? I mean, its not scripturally ILLEGAL to BLEED... "

I don&#39;t see how anything in the mailbag discussion answered your question. If JW&#39;s can take blood fractions derived from donated blood then why can&#39;t they donate blood to be fractionated?

By the way, you can get diseases such as Aids from blood fractions. I would sure prefer to get blood fractions derived from the blood of JW&#39;s rather than blood fractions derived from the blood of non-JW&#39;s! How about you?

[Warren]

I asked my spouse the same question about how long can blood be out of the body. I didn&#39;t get a satisfactory answer either. Maybe someone else can help you understand how your own conscience plays a part in these decisions better than I can. I have a hard time with all these new aspects to consider, it gets confusing to me too.[/b]

I already understand how my conscience plays a part in these decisions. My conscience tells me that if it&#39;s okay to have some of my blood removed from my body and put back in the next day then it&#39;s okay to pre-donate some of my blood a few weeks prior to surgery. If I follow my conscience in this matter I will be disfellowshipped and all my family and friends will shun me. Thus if I want to remain a JW I am not free to follow my conscience.

[Sketch]

If I follow my conscience in this matter I will be disfellowshipped and all my family and friends will shun me. Thus if I want to remain a JW I am not free to follow my conscience.[/b]


so, would you prefer to be alive and shunned or dead? Its sounds like your conscience has already made its decision...

[Warren]

How about you?

I already stated that it&#39;s not against my conscience to pre-donate some of my blood prior to surgery. Whether I choose to do so is a separate issue. But not pre-donating blood prior to surgery isn&#39;t an automatic death sentence. There are a lot of good bloodless surgery programs in my area. I would use this option to avoid getting disfellowshipped.

The point I&#39;m making is that the Society has no business putting us in this position to begin with. They have presented no scriptural argument for why it&#39;s okay to have blood removed from one&#39;s body and put back in a few hours later or even the next day but it is a disfellowhipping offense to pre-donate one&#39;s blood a few weeks prior to surgery. Therefore, this is an issue that each individual should decide for themselves based on their conscience. The Society shouldn&#39;t be imposing its conscience on others.

[Sketch]

How about you?

I already stated that it&#39;s not against my conscience to pre-donate some of my blood prior to surgery. Whether I choose to do so is a separate issue. But not pre-donating blood prior to surgery isn&#39;t an automatic death sentence. There are a lot of good bloodless surgery programs in my area. I would use this option to avoid getting disfellowshipped.[/b]


:icon_twisted: I&#39;m probably not a good person to ask... I&#39;d do it 1. because I have no problem with it. but 2. I&#39;d do it to DARE the congregation to do something to me... I&#39;m a spiteful son of a gun... and IF they DID df me, then I&#39;d make sure EVERYONE knew why and of the disparities in the "policy". However, I don&#39;t think they would DF me... not that I have too much contact with them anyway... except my dad... technically, i&#39;m just "inactive" right now....

[Warren]

If the elders found out you did it they would disfellowship you. There have been cases where JW&#39;s have been disfellowshipped for just disputing the Society&#39;s blood policy. They never took a blood transfusion! In one case a brother was disfellowshipped just because his wife found an email that he sent to a friend in another state where he expressed his doubts about the Society&#39;s blood policy. His wife turned the email over to the elders and he got disfellowshipped and his wife left him.

Most JW&#39;s are unaware of how authoritarian the organization is. That&#39;s because once they disfellowship you no one will listen to your side of the story. Everyone must shun you or get kicked out themselves. The only way any of this abuse gets out is on the internet and JW&#39;s are warned by the Society that anything on the internet that&#39;s against the organization is lies told by apostates. Thus, most JW&#39;s will never believe anything they hear that&#39;s against the organization.

[Sketch]

If the elders found out you did it they would disfellowship you. There have been cases where JW&#39;s have been disfellowshipped for just disputing the Society&#39;s blood policy.[/b]

Then I&#39;d guess I&#39;d get DF&#39;d and the Washinton Post would have a full page spread for all to see....

[Warren]

Yeah, and the JW&#39;s reading it would just consider you an apostate. I suspect that even on this forum few JW&#39;s would support your decision. I may be the only one.

In any event, you don&#39;t have to wait till you need surgery to test this out. Just let some of the brothers in your congregation know your views and you will be called before a judicial committee in no time.