Daniel Question

[Olm]

In Daniel 2:41-44 it talks about the feet being partly of clay and iron, and goes futher to mention a kingdom that is divided with offspring of mandkind that wont stick together. What kingdom is this? And how is this kingdom like the iron and clay?

[Jeshurun]

In Daniel 2:41-44 it talks about the feet being partly of clay and iron, and goes futher to mention a kingdom that is divided with offspring of mandkind that wont stick together. What kingdom is this? And how is this kingdom like the iron and clay?[/b]

Hi Olm.

Here's an explanation from Watchman's essay, "The KON Conspires for World Dominion".

Elsewhere in Daniel, the prophet alludes to the preeminent world kingdom being politically and ideologically divided. At Daniel 2:41-43 we read: "And whereas you beheld the feet and the toes to be partly of molded clay of a potter and partly of iron, the kingdom itself will prove to be divided, but somewhat of the hardness of iron will prove to be in it, forasmuch as you beheld the iron mixed with moist clay. And as for the toes of the feet being partly of iron and partly of molded clay, the kingdom will partly prove to be strong and will partly prove to be fragile. Whereas you beheld iron mixed with moist clay, they will come to be mixed with the offspring of mankind; but they will not prove to be sticking together, this one to that one, just as iron is not mixing with molded clay."

The two diametrically-opposed principle ideologies are well-symbolized by the iron and the clay feet of Nebuchadnezzar's metallic colossus. But, what do those two incompatible materials symbolize in the real world? Simply put: The iron represents oligarchical rule and the clay represents the republican form of political government. Iron symbolizes iron-fisted tyrannical control; typically exercised by an elite few. Whereas, in view of the fact that we are made from the dust of the earth, the properties of clay make it a fitting symbol for the common man.

Oligarchy is associated with imperial rule; having been expressed in various sundry forms down through history. Republicanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republicanism) is the antithesis of oligarchism and monarchy. Ruling-class oligarchs and elitists typically view themselves as inherently superior to the lower classes. They generally regard mankind as nothing more than an uneducable form of beast; whereas, the true republican views mankind as having great potential, being endowed with divine qualities that are far superior to the animal creation.

Of course, from Jehovah's standpoint neither the oligarch nor the republican is up to the task of governing the world. Nevertheless, all societies tend to polarize politically as they gradually stratify into upper and lower classes; with the propensity for the wealthy few to dominate the many, and the quest of the many to aspire to freedom being the natural tendency since mankind's venture into self-rule.

As regards the succession of world powers from the Bible's perspective; the modern political expression of the iron and clay is embodied in the present Anglo-American dual world power. To this day, as the successor to the Roman Empire, London (http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/empire.htm) remains the capital seat of the most powerful oligarchy that has ever ruled this planet.

The United States has historically been the champion of human rights, liberty and democracy. Together, Great Britain and the United States of America are a hybrid and unworkable fusion of two incompatible systems of political economy.

To fully understand the struggle between the king of the north and king of the south today, we must appreciate that there was a time when the king of the north completely dominated. The prophecy in the 2nd chapter of Daniel makes it evident that the iron and clay making up the feet and toes of the political image is only a relatively recent phenomenon. The legs of iron indicate that a sole empire ruled prior to the clay and iron mixture. History testifies to the fact the Roman Empire and its offspring, Christendom, and finally the British Empire, have each in their turn controlled Europe up until the last few centuries.

[Olm]

Ok so that seems to make sence to me. I was thinking that the clay and iron was talking about Rome only. Only how is London like the iron? London dosent seem to fit the picture, at least the London of today perhaps London of long ago would fit. Perhaps when the people from London or Britian traveled to America then thats when the dividing happen....???

[Jeshurun]

Ok so that seems to make sence to me. I was thinking that the clay and iron was talking about Rome only. Only how is London like the iron? London dosent seem to fit the picture, at least the London of today perhaps London of long ago would fit. Perhaps when the people from London or Britian traveled to America then thats when the dividing happen....???[/b]But, while the Vatican and Constantinople where vying for religious and political control of a vast portion of the planet during the so-called Dark Ages, Venice quietly became the financial capital of the world.

Under their appointed doge, the billionaire club of the Venetian oligarchy (http://www.students.org.au/oligarchy) established Venice as the most powerful city-state in all of feudalistic Europe. Later, in the 16th Century the Venetians exported (http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/venfreem.htm) their usurious financial system to London, and during the intervening centuries the transplanted Venetian arrangement has gradually transformed itself into the modern Wall Street-IMF global financial system. It is considered an open secret that the London-centered oligarchy (http://members.tripod.com/~american_almanac/takeover.htm) of today was modeled after the Venetian organization.

By means of Venice's transplanted oligarchical financier system, the City of London became the inheritor and perpetuator of the Roman Empire; hence, the king of the north.



That was in the very next paragraph!

[Shibboleth]

It is talking about the Anglo-American world power. If you look close enough you will see the clay-like and iron-like divide amongst the people. Bush is a hardnosed leader whom some have likened to a tyrannical leader and the people that bring their outside views into the country are the clay-like substance.

The U.S. gov't is most severely divided and it shows. Just watch the news FOx/CNN/MSNBC take your choice they all pretty much say the same thing about the U.S.

[olrono]

It is talking about the Anglo-American world power. If you look close enough you will see the clay-like and iron-like divide amongst the people. Bush is a hardnosed leader whom some have likened to a tyrannical leader and the people that bring their outside views into the country are the clay-like substance.

The U.S. gov't is most severely divided and it shows. Just watch the news FOx/CNN/MSNBC take your choice they all pretty much say the same thing about the U.S.[/b]
I am sorry, we wish the Government was divided, at leased we could believe someone was trying to keep our freedom. But as it is, they are in lock step together in bringing the world into the N.W.O!

[Shibboleth]

<div class='quotemain'>It is talking about the Anglo-American world power. If you look close enough you will see the clay-like and iron-like divide amongst the people. Bush is a hardnosed leader whom some have likened to a tyrannical leader and the people that bring their outside views into the country are the clay-like substance.

The U.S. gov&#39;t is most severely divided and it shows. Just watch the news FOx/CNN/MSNBC take your choice they all pretty much say the same thing about the U.S.[/b]
I am sorry, we wish the Government was divided, at leased we could believe someone was trying to keep our freedom. But as it is, they are in lock step together in bringing the world into the N.W.O!


[/b][/quote]

The U.S. government is divided. All you have to do is read the topics in the headlines. They are divided on Immigration, Iraq, Iran, the budget, abortion, religion etc etc. The iron and the clay mixture are what we are experiencing right now at this very moment. The government is more divided then it has ever been. Many of the news shows that I watch always complain about how divided the U.S. is and how it would be alot better if they could just get along for one minute.

[Jeshurun]

They are divided on peripheral issues but united on the big picture, the one no one sees on CNN or FoxNews. All congressmen do as the Zionists say, number one because they have taken their "contributions", number two because if they don&#39;t go along they simply lose their positions, or even die. Three presidents who didn&#39;t go along with the Illuminati plan were Lincoln, Jackson, and JFK. You all know what happened to them.

The simple fact that the 911 investigation was never reopened in spite of the clamoring of nearly half the population of the US is testimony to all of them being in on it.

I wonder just how much of their being divided on this and that is just to keep the public distracted while they lead the world into World War III. It keeps the "intellectuals" busy who need more than "Oprah".

[Berean]

The U.S. government is divided. All you have to do is read the topics in the headlines. They are divided on Immigration, Iraq, Iran, the budget, abortion, religion etc etc. The iron and the clay mixture are what we are experiencing right now at this very moment. The government is more divided then it has ever been. Many of the news shows that I watch always complain about how divided the U.S. is and how it would be alot better if they could just get along for one minute.[/b]
If you look at it like that, the iron would refer to the Republicans, and the clay to the Democrats, I think? Or perhaps even to the two sides of the political spectrum, with iron being right, and clay being left - one is too hard on many issues, the other too soft. Just my two cents, of course.

[Shibboleth]

<div class='quotemain'>The U.S. government is divided. All you have to do is read the topics in the headlines. They are divided on Immigration, Iraq, Iran, the budget, abortion, religion etc etc. The iron and the clay mixture are what we are experiencing right now at this very moment. The government is more divided then it has ever been. Many of the news shows that I watch always complain about how divided the U.S. is and how it would be alot better if they could just get along for one minute.[/b]
If you look at it like that, the iron would refer to the Republicans, and the clay to the Democrats, I think? Or perhaps even to the two sides of the political spectrum, with iron being right, and clay being left - one is too hard on many issues, the other too soft. Just my two cents, of course.
[/b][/quote]

I look at it this way, the clay would represent the people that bring their views from abroad. The government would fragment from these views since local and state governments would start to mold from these views. The original iron form of governement would be what the Bush administration is trying to keep hold of. Anyway that is just how I view it and it may not be correct. but it is hard not to see the similarities.

[olrono]

<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>The U.S. government is divided. All you have to do is read the topics in the headlines. They are divided on Immigration, Iraq, Iran, the budget, abortion, religion etc etc. The iron and the clay mixture are what we are experiencing right now at this very moment. The government is more divided then it has ever been. Many of the news shows that I watch always complain about how divided the U.S. is and how it would be alot better if they could just get along for one minute.[/b]
If you look at it like that, the iron would refer to the Republicans, and the clay to the Democrats, I think? Or perhaps even to the two sides of the political spectrum, with iron being right, and clay being left - one is too hard on many issues, the other too soft. Just my two cents, of course.
[/b][/quote]

I look at it this way, the clay would represent the people that bring their views from abroad. The government would fragment from these views since local and state governments would start to mold from these views. The original iron form of governement would be what the Bush administration is trying to keep hold of. Anyway that is just how I view it and it may not be correct. but it is hard not to see the similarities.
[/b][/quote]
I can see as usual the brothers don’t understand government. Bush is not “the Government”, he is the elected president of the Congress of the United States of America. And the Constitution for the United States of America is the lawful Government. This is a fact. When our elected officers neglect the Constitution, (as they are) it can be said, they are outlaws, high crimes and misdemeanors. “High”, being in high office, not the crime being high, it is the office.

[Shibboleth]

<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>The U.S. government is divided. All you have to do is read the topics in the headlines. They are divided on Immigration, Iraq, Iran, the budget, abortion, religion etc etc. The iron and the clay mixture are what we are experiencing right now at this very moment. The government is more divided then it has ever been. Many of the news shows that I watch always complain about how divided the U.S. is and how it would be alot better if they could just get along for one minute.[/b]
If you look at it like that, the iron would refer to the Republicans, and the clay to the Democrats, I think? Or perhaps even to the two sides of the political spectrum, with iron being right, and clay being left - one is too hard on many issues, the other too soft. Just my two cents, of course.
[/b][/quote]

I look at it this way, the clay would represent the people that bring their views from abroad. The government would fragment from these views since local and state governments would start to mold from these views. The original iron form of governement would be what the Bush administration is trying to keep hold of. Anyway that is just how I view it and it may not be correct. but it is hard not to see the similarities.
[/b][/quote]
I can see as usual the brothers don&#39;t understand government. Bush is not "the Government", he is the elected president of the Congress of the United States of America. And the Constitution for the United States of America is the lawful Government. This is a fact. When our elected officers neglect the Constitution, (as they are) it can be said, they are outlaws, high crimes and misdemeanors. "High", being in high office, not the crime being high, it is the office.


[/b][/quote]

I understand the government perfectly well. I never said Bush was the government. What I did say was that the Bush administration was trying to hold onto ideals of a iron government and trying to keep it from fragmenting even more. Bush, I believe has been one of the very few presidents that had an open checkbook with Congress before the Dems moved in and took control of the house and Senate. Bush had extreme power and now he has alot less. No one questioned anything he did. Do you realize he has hardly had to use his veto power. Thats because the Repubs let him do whatever he wanted without questioning him or bringing him before a review board. Now that the Dems are in there is a struggle cause he doesn&#39;t want to let go of that power. He still thinks he is god of America.

Now the lower forms of Gov&#39;t like the state and local are in a bad state. They have fragmented from the original ideas because of the diversity of people that live in those states and cities. Immigration has proved to be the defining point in alot of these communities. Alot of states have changed their stance on issues because now there are people in power that come from different ideals. That&#39;s the clay. The people who bring their ideas from abroad and try to change a current form of government. I am not blasting immigration by any means. I am just pointing out that when people come from different areas and are allowed to participate in the U.S. gov&#39;t they will bring along their ideals which may have no benefit for the gov&#39;t whatsoever.

All you have to do is turn on your tv to CNN, MSNBC or Fox to see that the ideals have changed. Now my opinion is that this stuff has to happen this way. The U.S. gov&#39;t has to completely fragment like the iron and clay. Seriuosly look how diverse this country is. Look at all the many many different cultures and peoples that are here. If you went to Russia would you find this amount of diversity in it&#39;s borders? How about Mexico? I think the U.S. is very unique and it is truely living up to the bible prophecies.

[olrono]

<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>The U.S. government is divided. All you have to do is read the topics in the headlines. They are divided on Immigration, Iraq, Iran, the budget, abortion, religion etc etc. The iron and the clay mixture are what we are experiencing right now at this very moment. The government is more divided then it has ever been. Many of the news shows that I watch always complain about how divided the U.S. is and how it would be alot better if they could just get along for one minute.[/b]
If you look at it like that, the iron would refer to the Republicans, and the clay to the Democrats, I think? Or perhaps even to the two sides of the political spectrum, with iron being right, and clay being left - one is too hard on many issues, the other too soft. Just my two cents, of course.
[/b][/quote]

I look at it this way, the clay would represent the people that bring their views from abroad. The government would fragment from these views since local and state governments would start to mold from these views. The original iron form of governement would be what the Bush administration is trying to keep hold of. Anyway that is just how I view it and it may not be correct. but it is hard not to see the similarities.
[/b][/quote]
Sorry Shib! I miss understood, tell me though, how you think The Bush administration is holding to a “hard” from of Government when to me he has left all real republican ideals and both him and congress have moved remarkably to the left? I believe Brother Watchman said that the Iron is the “British” side of Government, considered the Iron? Or are you just considering other possibilities?

[Jeshurun]

Sorry Shib! I miss understood, tell me though, how you think The Bush administration is holding to a "hard" from of Government when to me he has left all real republican ideals and both him and congress have moved remarkably to the left? I believe Brother Watchman said that the Iron is the "British" side of Government, considered the Iron? Or are you just considering other possibilities? [/b]

Brother Ron, Britain is a democracy, so it would fall under the "clay" portion (no offense, Clay). The iron is the imperialist oligarchs behind the scenes, represented by London. We have oligarchs in the USA too, they just operate from Wall Street, so to speak. Basically it&#39;s the financiers who have this imperialistic ideology. It is the Anglo-American dyad that will collapse, meaning their democratic governments. But these have been free countries for so long, and the clay will not go away so easily for the iron to dominate, therefore, it&#39;s weakness of an iron-clay mixture. It is mixed with the "offspring of mankind". That&#39;s the way I understand it.

Lou