More Eveidence That Terrorism Is A Pack Of Lies.

[Nambo]

Just like the chemically impossible making a liquid bomb on a plane hoax of last summer in order to take the heat off Israels attrocities in Lebonon.

We have another manufactured terrorist hoax in Great Britain at the moment to take the heat off Tony Blairs illegal cronism in the House of Lords, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6337335.stm

Notice the way they had been under surveillance for 6 months, then released without charge, so what did they see in those 6 months that indicated now was the time to bring them in?

Notice how the Police didnt even mention to the suspects the crime they where supposedly arrested for.

It seems that ever single "terrorist" the police saves us from ends up being released with no charge, just doesnt get put on the fron t page.
Does anybody see a pattern here?

The only chance the Republicans have of getting back in in the USA would be for a terrorist nuclear strike against an American city, just before the elections.

Just make sure you dont get fooled again.

Hey!, shouldnt the Watchtower be reporting this stuff?
Isnt that why its called the Watchtower?
Maybe its fallen down?

[Shibboleth]

Nambo I have held the view that there will be a calculated nuclear strike to an American city just before the elections. Bush has to have a way to keep himself in office especially since I don't believe there will be a distinct rival for Hillary.

Of course it will be blamed on Islamic terrorists who got the uranium from Iran.

[olrono]

I believe it was calculated that the Democrats would take over after the Republicans gained all that power from the so called “Patriot Act” . When Clinton was in office, he never dreamed to get that much power, remember Hilary’s face when the camera panned to her as Bush was giving that 911 speech? I’ll never forget that as long as I live.

[Jeshurun]

Nambo I have held the view that there will be a calculated nuclear strike to an American city just before the elections.[/b]

If you really examine all the rhetoric, it will be a few cities simultaneously.

[Molly]

Last August during the Israeli/Lebanon uproar there was a news conference at which Newt Gingrich made a remark that WWIII had started. It caught my attention since it was the first time I had heard it referred to as WWIII. From his demeanor it was as if he was expecting it, even eager for it. Since then an article has been posted here about him and his expectation of three world wars. The point is that the next war is expected at any time.

If there is an attack on the US before the elections, then I doubt that there will ever be any elections. Between the Patriot Act and the Military Commissions Act of 2006, I imagine we will be under Martial Law and all of our rights will essentially be suspended. I would think that Bush would continue his dictatorship until he hands over the reins to the NWO.

That's just how I envision events at this time. Regardless of how things actually happen, things are really heating up and all the puzzle pieces seem to be falling in place.

Molly

[Shibboleth]

I feel that this is the start of the great tribulation. I think we are right on the verge of total chaos. There are going to be many people who will be shocked, but there will be a small minority that will be saying "I told you so."

Right now in Israel they are trying to do some renovations to the Temple Mount and the Muslims are getting all uppity about it calling for their counterparts to rise up against Israel.


Lately I have been having some really crazy dreams. I would almost call them visions, but I won't go that far. They have been pretty weird in the fact that it is Armegeddon based dreams. I have never had such vivid dreams in my life.

[Sketch]

I - as some of you know - am a skeptic to the Nth degree... I'm don't think 9-11 was a governmental plot - but in the end, I'm not going to argue the point becaue I don't really care if it was or not. there is nothing I can do about it either way - I'm more of a "okay, this happened, whats my next move?" kind of guy..... but I DO like to hear all sides of a story...

So, that being said, I was searching online today and found something called "loose change". Its a movie on the web - its on their website and google video and chronicles some interesting things in favor of the conspiracy theory... I did a search on this site and saw no one mentioned it, so I wasn't sure if you all had seen it or not... it literally IS a movie.... a 90 minute movie on how these guys think it was plotted and carried out... it is very interesting to say the least...

check it out if you want...

[DoubtingThomas]

If terrorism is a pack of lies, then answer me this one question please: Why does Osama Bin Laden proudly take credit for the 9-11 attacks? Or is he in on the plot along with the governments too?

[Jeshurun]

If terrorism is a pack of lies, then answer me this one question please: Why does Osama Bin Laden proudly take credit for the 9-11 attacks? Or is he in on the plot along with the governments too?[/b]

Hi DT! Glad you asked! Here's a little bit of info :Smilie Clown:







But who is bin Laden? Why did the CIA choose this feeble-minded nonentity in the 1980s to create the Services Office for the recruitment of guerrilla soldiers in 50 countries for the war against the secular pro-Soviet government in Afghanistan?

He had inherited $300 million, and hence the CIA was able to funnel $5 billion through him, which he could pass off as his own money and thus leave the CIA behind the scenes. Officially, the United States did not participate in the war.

In 1978, the per capita income in Afghanistan was $168 a year. In other words, $1,000 a year was a fortune. For $300 million, bin Laden (that is, the CIA) could recruit 30,000 guerrilla soldiers to serve for 10 years for $1,000 a year per recruit.

A guerrilla soldier learned in a training camp how to ambush Soviet and pro-Soviet soldiers, fire a Kalashnikov at them, and flee to his 'base' in the mountains or caves. Most of the 30,000 guerrilla soldiers survived the war and were far better off materially in Islamic countries like Afghanistan than the average-income person, to say nothing of those who were starving.

The CIA no longer needed guerrilla soldiers, so bin Laden inherited them.

In print and on Barry Farber's radio talk show in the late 1980s, I explained that Soviet Russia securely held Afghanistan. Not because of 'tactical nuclear weapons', discussed by the US government following September 11, 2001, but by creating a single infrastructure so that finally the guerrillas would starve and die out in their mountains and caves, a strategy by which Russia had conquered the Islamic Caucasus in the 19th century.

Why,then, did Gorbachev withdraw from Afghanistan? For the same reason he withdrew from East Germany and many other territories, for which he was made a Nobel Peace Prize laureate.

Until 1992, the Western public did not know that Gorbachev was developing Superweapon No. 3. He withdrew from Afghanistan and East Germany because he believed in world domination via Superweapon No. 3, not via old-fashioned territorial expansion.

But Gorbachev's geostrategic withdrawal from Afghanistan was perceived by the West (and the Islamic world) as a Soviet rout. This imaginary Soviet debacle transformed the nonentity bin Laden, the CIA's financial screen, into a megalomaniac - a new Muhammad who had rallied Moslems in 50 countries and defeated Soviet Russia with the help of his (the CIA's) Services Office.

Now, if he had defeated Soviet Russia, he could certainly defeat the United States, too. He had hated the secular pro-Soviet government in Afghanistan because it had introduced universal school education that included girls. He hated the United States even more: The American permissiveness with respect to females was even worse than the Soviet indulgence, and American troops were on the sacred soil of Saudi Arabia!

So, in the late 1980s, he renamed the Services Office, created by the CIA in 50 countries, as The Base (al-Qaeda) to fight "the Jews and the Crusaders" (that is, Christians). But the feeble-minded megalomaniac did not take into account the cardinal difference between a guerrilla soldier and a terrorist.

Millions, or dozens of millions, of Moslems would find it quite attractive to be guerrilla soldiers in a war for $1,000 a year and live happily after the war. But all terrorism is mortally dangerous, for a terrorist in New York or Washington cannot flee into the mountains or caves of Afghanistan. He is in the position of the most dangerous and most wanted criminal in a foreign country.

Besides, the most effective terrorism is suicidal, and there is a psychological chasm between a guerrilla soldier surviving a guerrilla war and a 'martyr' who sacrifices his life. Bin Laden could, in October and November of 2001, have attacked his enemies in Afghanistan and died in a terrorist act. But so far he has been good at fleeing and hiding, not at sacrificing his life.

Was there a single terrorist in Al-Qaeda? The US war on the Taliban's Afghanistan began on October 7, 2001. Any real terrorist organization would have retaliated within days, if not hours. Indeed, bin Laden brandished his alleged nuclear and biological weapons verbally, and the US government warned that retaliation was drawing nigh.

But these were bin Laden's megalomaniacal theatricals. Where was his Al-Qaeda in 50 or 68 countries when the war in Afghanistan was on? As for Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, its members seemed to be bad even as guerrilla fighters recruited by the CIA in the 1980s, but they behaved just as bureaucrats do when their office is attacked: running away or even surrendering. There was not a single case of terrorism or of any bold counterattack.

Considering the poverty in the Islamic world, the CIA and, later, bin Laden could have hired millions or dozens of millions of Moslems, but what were they good for besides wearing 10-cent badges saying "Beware! I am bin Laden's suicidal terrorist" and then fleeing, with bin Laden fleeing faster than any of them.

Bin Laden actually redefined the definition of who is a terrorist: "A terrorist, and especially a suicidal terrorist, is a man who runs away for his dear life from his enemies faster than anyone else."

Arabs often look like Jews, since both are Semitic. Much as bin Laden hates Jews and imagines himself to be an Arab holy war daredevil, who defeated Soviet Russia and will defeat the West, he looks like a 19th century Russian Jew, terrified by pogroms. His premature senility and grave ailments do not add to his heroic holy war self-image either.

Before 1999, even those terrorist acts that were ascribed (falsely?) to bin Laden and his Al-Qaeda had been so few and insignificant that the U.S. State Department had not included Al-Qaeda on its list of 30 (as of 1997) Foreign Terrorist Organizations.

Before me is the State Department's 16-page document of October 31, 2001, entitled 'Significant Terrorist Incidents, 1961-2001: Chronology'. In 1999, the first year the State Department included Al-Qaeda on its list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations, there were 12 "significant terrorist incidents," but not one of them was claimed by, or ascribed to, Al-Qaeda.

In 2000, there were nine such 'incidents', and in only one of them, in Yemen, "supporters of Usama bin Laden were suspected." It is not clear why two terrorists could not carry out this terrorist act on their own without the support of Al-Qaeda. A "small dinghy carrying explosives rammed the destroyer USS Cole, killing 17 sailors." This is a humdrum terrorist act of the 19th century.

The money to buy the explosives? An American taxi driver 'without a medallion' nets $100 a day. Characteristic is the word 'supporters' above. The United States has made bin Laden an evil world celebrity for the West and hence a heroic world celebrity for terrorists. Quite recently, a born-and-bred 15-year-old WASP American, Charles Bishop, rammed a stolen plane into the Bank of America building in Tampa and expressed in his suicide note his support for bin Laden. What does this mean? Nothing, except that bin Laden is now a household name, due to the US media.

Had we not known the story from the police in detail, the US media would have been likely to use that magic word link' and say that Bishop was 'linked' to bin Laden and Al-Qaeda, from which the public would conclude that Bishop was an Al-Qaeda 'operative' and that Al-Qaeda had actually 'planned and carried out' Bishop's terrorist act, while Bishop was just a cog in its wheel.

In its report of January 17, 2002, from Washington on the Philippine Islamic Abu Sayyaf, which has "up to 2,000 members," the World reporter notes that "some of them" (how many? Two percent, one percent, 0.1 percent?) "trained in Afghanistan."

This is quite possible. Way back in the 1980s, the CIA set up camps to train 30,000 recruits in the use of automatic weapons for the guerrilla war. Possibly, two percent, one percent, 0.1 percent of the 2,000 terrorists of Abu Sayyaf in the Philippines are former guerrilla fighters in Afghanistan. This is enough for the report to conclude that Abu Sayyaf is 'linked to Al-Qaeda' and conjure up once again the obsessively reiterated image of Al-Qaeda 'planning and carrying out' terrorist acts in the Philippines as well.

In this way, it is easy to further aggravate the American obsession with bin Laden by assuring the public that his Al-Qaeda has been 'planning and carrying out' all terrorist acts in the world, from the September 11, 2001, attack to Bishop's ramming of the Bank of America, since someone or something in each terrorist act is 'linked' to bin Laden, a world celebrity.

To finish the State Department's list of 'significant terrorist incidents': In 2001, before September 11, there were six 'incidents', and none has ever been 'linked' by anyone in any way with Al-Qaeda.

A bomb in a Jerusalem restaurant killed 15 Jews and wounded 90, but as usual it was claimed by Hamas, as was a bomb in a Tel Aviv nightclub that "caused over 140 casualties." Bin Laden had put Jews before Christians as enemies in his verbal holy war theatricals, but not a single terrorist act in Israel has ever been ascribed to Al-Qaeda.

A huge, inept bureaucracy, Al-Qaeda is not only useless for terrorism but also harmful and dangerous for it. For example, its bureaucrats scribbled a list of those who were assigned to bomb US military ships in Singapore. The plan was megalomaniacal, a megalomaniac's dream.

As the Al-Qaeda bureaucrats were fleeing and surrendering in Afghanistan, they dropped the records and videotapes, because he who flees the lightest, flees the fastest.

The US military picked up the records and videotapes, and on January 11, 2002, those listed by the Al-Qaeda pen-pushers were duly arrested in Singapore and can now be sentenced to death on the strength of Al-Qaeda bureaucrats' scribblings.

That is, the irresponsible Al-Qaeda bureaucracy has been acting not out of malice, but out of sheer bureaucratic indifference - as a collective agent provocateur, describing megalomaniacal terrorist acts, complete with the names, and then losing the records.

Useless and destructive for terrorism, the al-Qaeda bureaucracy has nonetheless been serving bin Laden as his giant PR exhibit, with the United States as his PR agency, sensationalizing the PR exhibit as the last word in global terrorism - the global terrorist mastermind, 'planning and carrying out' terrorist acts all over the world, and in particular, in the United States.

The American publicity, representing the feeble-minded megalomaniac as the most dangerous villain in recorded history, has been reflected upside down in the anti-American Islamic media, which represents bin Laden as the new Muhammad who has conquered the United States spiritually. The Americans have been able to think of nothing and no one except him as their most dangerous foe they have been determined to kill or capture at the price of a war in Afghanistan and no matter what.

But sadly lacking in his global Islamic glory (created by the United States) were great deed - military victories in that holy war bin Laden had been talking about for more than a decade. And here came, on September 11, 2001, an event that the United States represented as equivalent to the Second World War on American territory.

Never mind that the act took place and caused more casualties than in 1993 because of the American unpreparedness for any hostile military activity on American soil. Surely no one nationally visible and audible in the United States said that! Instead, Christiane Amanpour of CNN, for example, spoke of the event as unprecedented "in recorded history"! What a grandiose Islamic military victory worthy of Muhammad's military victories!

Yet the new Muhammad did not claim credit for this grandiose Islamic victory. Nay, in his interview of September 12, he expressly denied any involvement in it. Of course, he hailed it. He also said that "the majority of the dead were innocent people," but so also were those killed, for example, by Western aviation. He then spoke of "hundreds of Osamas," to suggest modestly (modesty is the best ornament of a great leader) that the United States was obsessed with him and refused to think of hundreds of other Osamas.

No nationally visible and audible American was surprised: A criminal always lies to conceal his or her crime. No nationally visible American seemed to understand that for most Moslems the event, magnified by the United States to infinity, was not the most heinous crime in recorded history, but the greatest (glorious and divine) military victory for the new Muhammad to be proud of. Certainly he had no fear of the United States at that time.

Because of his megalomania (created by the United States) he could not imagine the forthcoming debacle of the Taliban and the flight (or surrender) of his Al-Qaeda in November and December. In September, the megalomaniac refused to leave Afghanistan, and the Taliban refused to extradite him and thus avoid the war.

Yes, in September, the megalomaniac still challenged the West, the US armed forces, as well as the 42 tribes hostile to the Taliban of the Pushtun tribe. Certainly it was not fear of the United States at that time that prompted bin Laden to expressly declare publicly that he had nothing to do with what was to most Moslems the greatest (glorious and divine) victory of September 11, 2001, in that holy war that he had declared on the United States. What prompted him to make such a public statement?

There had been a lesson for him in the past. When President Clinton automatically accused him of a 1995 assassination attempt in Addis Ababa against Hosni Mubarak, the Egyptian president, he did not deny the charge. Actually, this terrorist act had been planned for more than a year and carried out by Gama al-Islamija of Egypt, as its members explained to Western correspondents.

So bin Laden looked like a braggart, stealing the bona fide holy warriors' deed. If he had "planned and carried out" the terrorist attack of September 11, 2001, the greatest victorious battle in the holy war, then, as soon as the fourth airliner crashed, he, and most of more than 1 billion Moslems as well as the anti-American Islamic media would have screamed that the new Muhammad had at last achieved a grandiose military victory worthy of Muhammad's victories in the 7th century.

But he had not (as we will see below) had anything to do with that greatest victory in the holy war, and he did not want to repeat his experience of 1995 and to hear those who had done it and his numberless Islamic enemies branding him as a liar, a fraud and a scoundrel, deserving to be assassinated by the bona fide terrorists in accordance with the code of honor in the holy war.

Hence, he expressly stated publicly that he had not been involved in any way in that greatest victory in the holy war.

To justify the attack on the Taliban's Afghanistan on October 7, 2001, Prime Minster Tony Blair of England had addressed, on October 4, the House of Commons (as was shown by the American commercial mainstream television) with a 16-page 'intelligence report', according to which bin Laden, at the head of al-Qaeda, harbored by the Taliban, had 'planned and carried out' the epoch-making terrorist attack.

If Blair had presented any evidence showing that bin Laden financed the attack, that might have been an impudent lie, based on fabrications, but at least it would have been a plausible lie. But he said nothing about any financing, while his assertion that bin Laden 'planned and carried out' from Afghanistan the attack in the United States was an implausible lie, for no one could 'plan and carry out' from Afghanistan the training in the United States of pilots and hijackers in the respective flight schools and sports gyms, the 19 terrorists' buying airline tickets in the United States according to the local airline timetables, the pilots' calculations of the time to reach all the targets simultaneously (to avoid interception), as well as the hijacking and the ramming themselves.

Blair's 16-page 'intelligence report' must have seemed implausible even to the British prime minister himself, for more than a month later, on November 14, 2001, he released a 23-page 'intelligence dossier', according to which bin Laden was the perpetrator of the epoch-making terrorist attack of more than two months earlier because he praised it to the skies as the 'battle' that "has been moved inside America."

Blair thus postulated that if bin Laden had not 'planned and carried out' the attack, he would have condemned it as a crime. The American commercial mainstream television showed Blair addressing the British Parliament, which, instead of shouting 'Idiot' shouted 'Yeah' after every other sentence Blair uttered in triumph.

To think that this was the Parliament of the nation that produced Swift, Dickens, John Stuart Mill and Orwell.

Finally, on December 11, 2001, the US government released a privately-made videotape (made in mid-November) on which bin Laden lied with unrestrained megalomaniacal abandon to his several worshippers about how he had 'planned and carried out' (as Tony Blair had put it) that terrorist act that the United States had sensationalized into what most Moslems perceived as the greatest (divine and glorious) victory in the holy war.

Bin Laden's motivation was obvious. He still did not want to take credit publicly for the greatest victory in the holy war lest those really responsible for it and yet alive call him, the new Muhammad, a liar, a fraud and a scoundrel, to be heard by his foes, as numerous as his worshippers.

A privately-made videotape was something quite different. Of course, the Americans would get hold of a copy, and the American television would give it world publicity. Well, if those really responsible for the greatest victory in the holy war and alive challenged his claim, he and his worshippers would say that the videotape was an American fabrication. But if no one challenged his claim on the videotape, most Moslems would know, owing to both American and Islamic television, that the new Muhammad had won that greatest victory in the holy war.

The videotape was hailed as the 'smoking gun' by those nationally visible and audible Americans who were obsessed with bin Laden: The criminal told the gospel truth (what a truthful man!) and made a clean breast of his heinous crime in the belief that never, ever would a copy of the videotape stray beyond his trusted circle.

Actually, the videotape proved beyond reasonable doubt that bin Laden was a liar, a fraud and, in terms of the terrorist code of honor, a scoundrel.

Again, if he had said that he had financed the terrorist act, by paying all the terrorists' expenses, that might have been a lie, but at least it would have been a plausible lie. But in mid-November nothing had been said publicly, as yet, in the United States about the terrorists' United Arab Emirates account or about the training in American flight schools and sports gyms, for which they paid by drawing on that UAE account.

Hence, bin Laden did not know that either, and said nothing about the finances and the UAE account. He obviously believed that the terrorists had not been financed from any outside source at all, since they had not needed the money to pay for their training in the United States: according to the videotape, there was no such training - bin Laden did not say a word about it.

On the other hand, he had certainly heard the British prime minister's idiotic declaration that he, bin Laden, had 'planned and carried out' – in Afghanistan – the terrorist hijacking and ramming of three buildings in the United States, and in his feeble-minded megalomania, bin Laden explained that this was precisely what he had been doing in Afghanistan. Thus, "we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the (World Trade Center) towers."

Well, the 'number of casualties' depended on the general capacity of the two towers, on which floors the airliners rammed, on whether the two towers would collapse, on the time when they would collapse, on the number of the people still there at the time, and on details like the flight of the elevator operators.

Hence, the 'number of casualties' in the two towers could be anywhere from 300 to 50,000. After mid-November, when the videotape was made, the number of casualties was revised repeatedly. But bin Laden and his experts in Afghanistan had 'calculated in advance the number of casualties' by 'the position of the towers'.

At the same time, bin Laden said that they were not sure that the towers would collapse. How did they 'calculate' the 'number of casualties' if they were not even sure that the towers would collapse? Only bin Laden himself foresaw it (and made a separate calculation of the 'number of casualties'?) because he knew that the gasoline in the airliners would melt their steel structure.

That is, bin Laden parroted what the American 'television experts' were saying in mid-November. Now, in December, the American 'experts' began to say in the media that the cause of the collapse was 'faulty fireproofing': on December 13, the New York Times even published (page B8) photographs of 1993 and 1994, showing faulty fireproofing or the total absence of fireproofing already in those years.

Had bin Laden spoken in December, he would have lied about how he foresaw faulty fireproofing as the cause of the collapse. But he spoke in mid-November, and parroted what the American 'television experts' were saying at that time.

The fact that the terrorist act of Sept. 11 germinated from a cell of college buddies at a major technological institute in Hamburg became known only on November 28, 2001, and hence bin Laden had known nothing about it. As a result, he represented the terrorists as strangers to one another, who "didn't know anything about the operation, not even one letter."

Bin Laden was unaware of the fact they had been learning in the United States how to pilot airliners without taking off or landing them, that is, to ram them, and how to hijack them by knife-fighting and kick-boxing. His absurd megalomaniac lie was meant to represent the 19 suicidal terrorists as 19 cogs of his bureaucratic machine that he (that is, the CIA) had created.

Bin Laden explained to his worshippers that he knew the time when each airliner would ram its target:

They (the Islamic television viewers) were overjoyed when the first plane hit the building, so I said to them: Be patient. The difference between the first and the second plane hitting the towers was 20 minutes. And the difference between the first plane and the plane that hit the Pentagon was one hour.

That is, bin Laden did not even understand that these differences in time were the inexperienced pilots' distance: speed = time miscalculations, which could lead to interception. He represented these dangerous mistakes as the time differences he had planned and calculated, and hence, while those worshippers of his were overjoyed by the first hit, he knew that the second one would follow in 20 minutes and the third in an hour.

Planning! Calculation! Science and technology in the 21st century! From Afghanistan, the scientific-technological genius of bin Laden 'planned and carried out' the operation in the United States, as Tony Blair's 'intelligence report' had put it on October 4, 2001. Bin Laden had seen him on the Islamic television, with captions in Arabic, and out-Blaired Tony Blair!

Curiously, bin Laden said nothing about the fourth airliner. What was its target? The American media (and the FBI) did not know, and hence he did not even mention the fourth airliner.

By his videotape the feeble-minded megalomaniac proved beyond reasonable doubt not only that he had nothing to do with the hijacking and ramming of September 11, 2001, but also that he was mentally unfit to mastermind any suicidal terrorist act, even if he had been personally present on its site.

The 19 suicidal terrorists were 19 individuals - 19 biographies, each worthy of Dostoyevsky's pen. But bin Laden, whom the United States has made better known than any writer or thinker alive, has been a bureaucrat whose bureaucracy was created for him by the CIA, and those terrorists whom he mentions by name on his videotape, because the American media had been mentioning them by name, are to him like construction workers he once hired for his family construction corporation. No need to know anything about them.

In his bureaucratic perception, reflected by the videotape, suicidal terrorists were just like, for example, bricklayers, except that their trade was not to lay bricks, but to sacrifice their lives, without him remembering even the names of all of them as listed by the FBI on the Internet.

He did not explain why at least eight, if not 15, of them were Saudis, and not one of them was from Afghanistan. Who cared where the bricklayers were from? Theirs was to die as unknown bricklayers, and bin Laden's was to be a world celebrity, better known than anyone else alive, owing to the United States, and seated in his high office, 'planning and carrying out' global Islamic terrorism via expendable cogs of his bureaucratic machine (built by the CIA).

If bin Laden and his Al-Qaeda bureaucrats had been personally present in the United States in 2000 and 2001 to 'plan and carry out' the terrorist act of September 11, there would have been no such act. The bureaucrats, headed by a feeble-minded megalomaniac, dealing with suicidal terrorists as with bricklayers hired by a construction corporation in Saudi Arabia, would have ruined the spirit of joint self-sacrifice, would have brought the suicidal idealism down to the level of their own earthly and cowardly selves, and would have replaced the exalted martyrdom with megalomaniac administrative orders, inevitable grudges against them, wrangling, rivalries, cowardice and other awakenings of earthly egoism, leading the would-be terrorists into the FBI's custody.

Bin Laden and his Al-Qaeda bureaucrats ran away in the war in Afghanistan and dropped behind their records incriminating would-be terrorists. How could they be in charge of unanimous suicide in whatever transcendental cause? Quite likely, the 19 suicidal terrorists would have first assassinated bin Laden and his entourage as insolent frauds, cowards and agents provocateur.

It is not for nothing that Dostoyevsky argued that the freest (and most dangerous) person is someone ready to commit suicide. On January 16, 2002, it was reported that John Walker, an American who had fought for the Taliban, said that he had seen bin Laden before September 11, 2001, and the man told him about the forthcoming terrorist act. So, bin Laden blabbed about a terrorist act involving 19 terrorist lives to an American as to a friend so close and trustworthy as to be absolutely sure that the information would never reach the CIA.

For many years the media will keep publishing such lies, allegedly showing bin Laden's ubiquitous masterminding of global Islamic terrorism. But no lies can disprove bin Laden's videotape in which he demonstrated, owing to his stupidity and megalomania, that he had nothing to do with the hijacking and ramming of September 11, 2001, much as he and all those obsessed with him have wanted to prove the opposite.

[Sketch]

Glad you asked! Here's a little bit of info :Smilie Clown:[/b]

HOLY COW MAN!!! I'm going to be in the bathroom a LONG time reading this...

[Eli's Foe]

You might like to read this article too........<a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,583869,00.html" target="_blank">
</a>
http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0...,583869,00.html (http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,583869,00.html)

I have known about the connection for some time, but now it all seems rather more relevant.

EF

[DoubtingThomas]

HOLY COW MAN!!! I&#39;m going to be in the bathroom a LONG time reading this...

You just cracked me up Sketch. You are just way too funny man!!

[DoubtingThomas]

If I stick around here reading these articles much longer, you guys are even gona have me convinced. And I&#39;m a Doubting Thomas!

[Nambo]

If terrorism is a pack of lies, then answer me this one question please: Why does Osama Bin Laden proudly take credit for the 9-11 attacks? Or is he in on the plot along with the governments too?[/b]

What!!!
Doubting Thomas, you gotta stick your fingers in those holes and start finding out for yourself!

Osama Bin Laden said:-

" As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these
attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children, and other
humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent
women, children, and other people. Such a practice is forbidden ever in the
course of a battle."

Does that sound like him claiming to take credit for it?
And belive me, I work in the industry, if a Terrorist does something, he takes the credit for it, thats why they do it, sometimes they will take the credit for acts they didnt even commit if it helps thier cause.

Now the lying Satanic propogander you have been fed DT, is a Video the CIA "found" in a cave, in Afganisytan, lucky for them, bit like finding un burnt Arabic passports sitting on top of all that 911 ruble.
If you have a look at this Video, you will see the suppossed Osama Bin Laden writing with his right hand, whereas the Real Osama Bin Laden is left handed.
Also have a look at the real Osamas delicate bird-like thin nose, and compare it to the CIA Osama with the big thick nose.

You gotta stop believing Satans minions DT else they will have you beliveing the Anti-Christ is the real Jesus!

Sketch, have you seen Loose Change 2 as well?

But loose change is like the milk of 911 truth, if you look for the meat as supplied by professional engineers, physists, airline piolets, wistle-blowers, etc etc, you will have to be lying for the CIA to claim you still belive the official story.

n

[Sketch]

Sketch, have you seen Loose Change 2 as well?

But loose change is like the milk of 911 truth, if you look for the meat as supplied by professional engineers, physists, airline piolets, wistle-blowers, etc etc, you will have to be lying for the CIA to claim you still belive the official story.[/b]

Hey Nambo,

I only watched Loose Change - 2nd Edition (I will wait for Loose Change Final Cut)... it showed a lot of coincidences that I find interesting... but what I found most interesting was the science behind the melting steel... I still have to check that one out...

Is "Loose Change" and "Loose Change - 2nd edition" very different?

[Jinnvisible]

But who is bin Laden? Why did the CIA choose this feeble-minded nonentity in the 1980s to create the Services Office for the recruitment of guerrilla soldiers in 50 countries for the war against the secular pro-Soviet government in Afghanistan?

[/b]

I think this is an ill considered artical. It is interesting.

The writter seems to have an image of Osama Bin Laden as some kind of middle manager, a factory floor boss who would have known every detail of the opperation. I don`t know why that would be the case.

The opperation itself was extremely inexpensive and simple, it didn`t take a genius. A malevolent teenager with a couple of million dollars to spare a credit card internet access could have co-ordinated it.

Can the CIA or Al Qaeda can be thought of as simple, monolithic organisations where every element in the organisations is always following the Head of it ? Is it certain that these organisations are not comprised of double dealing sub-groups ? It seems, that this, is the very order of day to day business for them.

To my mind, It isnt beyond possibillity that a western government would carry out a 9/11 kind of attack and lay the blame somewhere else. Although some of the evidence presented in this artical might not be very good evidence for that, even if that is what happened.

Tacticaly there may be other considerations for why Mr Bin Laden did not at first admitt liabillity. He may have been watching for reactions in the muslim world, or how other governments such as Russia or Pakistan would react. He may have hoped to play on US paranoia and zenophobia to cause the US generals to respond to all posible sources of the attack. If he did not admitt this straight away perhaps the US would not become simply polarised against him but rather be drawn into a war against many possible foes. weaking the US millitary focus and maximising the impact of the action.

It might be to easy to look upon an egomanic in a cave as a primitive dumbass. Yet he fought tactically against the soviet millitary that would proberbley furnish him with some kind of experience.

You can`t judge a man`s tactical abillity by the size of his turban.

[Jeshurun]

The opperation itself was extremely inexpensive and simple, it didn`t take a genius. A malevolent teenager with a couple of million dollars to spare a credit card internet access could have co-ordinated it.[/b]

The Payne Stewart incident is a good example of how secure the skies are over North America. The "drills" that had long been planned for that day is one of the reasons NORAD stood down for nearly 2 hours. And yes, Jinn, you are right, there are different groups that are not necessarily in sync with each other. That&#39;s why flight 93 got shot down instead of hitting the Capitol or the Whitehouse, either of which would have ended up with martial law being declared, just a few years too soon for Jehovah&#39;s schedule.

[Nambo]

<div class='quotemain'>Sketch, have you seen Loose Change 2 as well?

But loose change is like the milk of 911 truth, if you look for the meat as supplied by professional engineers, physists, airline piolets, wistle-blowers, etc etc, you will have to be lying for the CIA to claim you still belive the official story.[/b]

Hey Nambo,

I only watched Loose Change - 2nd Edition (I will wait for Loose Change Final Cut)... it showed a lot of coincidences that I find interesting... but what I found most interesting was the science behind the melting steel... I still have to check that one out...

Is "Loose Change" and "Loose Change - 2nd edition" very different?
[/b][/quote]

Probably dont even need to check out the science Sketch, just belive in your own logic and common sense.

Most of that jet fuel came harmlessly hurtling out the other side of the building but it did give you a chance to see, on live TV, how long it takes a mass of fuel to burn, not long really was it?

I will leave it to you to find out the amount of steel unsed in those buildings, but I can tell you it was a lot, you had 40 core columns running top to bottom, they where box section about 40 inches I belive made with 4 inch thick steel.

Now bareing in mind how quickly that fuel would burn, how hot do you think that 4 inch thick steel would have got, and remember you also have convection so that steel would have carried in heat it did have a chance to absorb into untold tons of steel.

This is backed up by fire experts who can tell the heat of a fire by the colour of the smoke and reported that the twin tower fires where cool fires.
It is also backed up by the recording of the fireman who was in one of the buildings and reported that there where just a few small fires and 3 hoses would be enough to put them out.

You also had the steel engineer who supplied the steel that said the high quality of that steel was graded to stand temeratures far higher than fuel can achieve and for many continuos hours, not the brief flash of the burning fuel.

My first Job was in a metal foundry, whilst no expert, I can tell you to melt steel takes a lot of heat and energy.
My second job was as an aircraft mechanic in the military, those 7 stage gas turbines would compress air which was then mixed with said aviation fuel and said super oxygenated mixture would be ignited creating the thrust which passes through the compressor turbine all day long if you like without those little blades melting.

Another thing to bare in mind, the officail story says the steel got hot enough to loose its rigidity, well if this was the case, when those floors suppossedly pancaked on each other, where was the central core of 40 columns?
It wasnt still stuck up in the air like an old fashion record player once a stack of records had been played!, you didnt see it stuck up and then bend over due to being melted!
It just wasnt thier.

Our we to belive that that tiny amount of aircraft fuel sort of vapourised the complete core of both buildings?

And still leave the guys passport unsinged!

I would like to hear something that does make sense regarding the official story, someone?, please?

[Molly]

[quote]


Nambo-

Excellent point! Why doesn&#39;t all that superheated fuel coming out of those engines melt those little blades on the engine (and they are thin now that I think about it) if it could have supposedly melted the thick steel core columns.

My first husband was an F-15 pilot. He would fly for hours and never have I ever heard any one concerned that any part of the engines melted. When stationed in Iceland he flew for as much as 13 hours a day with refueling and apparently noone ever considered that any part of the engine would melt, not even those thin blades at the rear of the engine. (Perhaps someone should mention the possibility to the Air Force!)

Molly

[DoubtingThomas]

Wikipedia encyclopedia has a lengthy article on 9/11 conspiracy theories. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories Anyone can read the facts with supporting documentation for themselves in articles such as this one or the article Illumanati in Wikipedia or any well researched publication and determine for themselves what they believe as to these conspiracy theories or if terrorism is a pack of lies. In fact, "conspiracy theories" is another excellent article in Wikipedia on this subject. I would suggest that any who are interested look up these articles along with the supporting documented evdience and determine for themselves what they believe as for 9/11 being part of a conspiracy or terrorism being a pack of lies. But as for me and my household, we are still a Doubting Thomas.

[Sketch]

Probably dont even need to check out the science Sketch, just belive in your own logic and common sense.[/b]

Sorry Nambo. I have to research it... "logic and common sense" got me suckered into 1914... and if you substitute "common" with "JW" and that explains me falling for the UN issue aside from my own gullibility... I&#39;m also a volunteer Hazmat Tech, so I know things react differently in different circumstances... Its just something I have to see for myself... as many angles as possible...

[Jeshurun]

Theory means "speculation". The official story of 9/11, in every sense, at every turn, simply does not even come close to standing up to the laws of physics. So it is not a theory that 9/11 was a conspiracy, it is a fact, unless we believe that for some reason Jehovah lifted the laws of physics to accomodate them. Perform a simple experiment. Nothing falls at free fall speed unless there is nothing underneath it but air.

Satan is deceiving the world into accepting the New World Order through fear. We have to ask ourselves, who gains from the events of 9/11? Osama? How?

If anyone knows anything about the CIA, they would know that if they want anyone dead, and I don&#39;t care who it is or where they hide, they would be dead within a few days, maybe a little longer if they manage to hide in a submarine 20,000 leagues under the sea. Certainly a very tall Arab who is a CIA agent himself, not to mention a Freemason, would not be alive 5 1/2 years after becoming the world&#39;s most wanted man.

If anyone is stumbled by the exposure of Satan&#39;s lies and webwork leading to his NWO, then they really ought to think about just sticking to the threads they are interested in. But when an entire hemisphere is watching the "return of Christ", some might think it&#39;s really him. Satan&#39;s wants people&#39;s eyes closed, not open.

[DoubtingThomas]

Satan might be deceiving most of the world into accepting the New World Order through fear, but he is not tricking Jehovah&#39;s faithful servants. They are not blinded by Satan&#39;s deceptive tactics. And they will not give in to fear if they truly love God, His soon to be reigning Son Jesus Christ, and the Messianic Kingdom.

BTW - I am interested in this topic or subject, and this thread, and the possibility of conspiracies regarding 9-11, terrorism and the Illuminati. I am just not buying into it, at least not based on the evidence I have examined such as presented by the articles in Wikipedia or presented by some who support these ideas and are presenting them as "fact" based on certain articles they have presented.

Of course ... it is true that Satan will be establishing a new World Order. But we will have to wait and see how these things develop, and from what source they appear, be it The Illuminati, or from some other source of establishment. Sorry I am such a sceptic, but the evidence as presented so far does not warrant the same conclusion in my mind that has been established with much certainty it appears in the minds of others on this forum.

[Nambo]

BTW - I am interested in this topic or subject, and this thread, and the possibility of conspiracies regarding 9-11, terrorism and the Illuminati. I am just not buying into it, at least not based on the evidence I have examined such as presented by the articles in Wikipedia or presented by some who support these ideas and are presenting them as "fact" based on certain articles they have presented.[/b]

Maybe if we are wrong DT, you can help us as nobody likes to be mislead.

First question you can help us with is how do a pair of 6 ton titanium and steel engines, travelling at about 470 MPH not even break the glass in the windows they hit?
Is bullet proof glass really that tough?

[Berean]

I just came across a video called "Screw Loose Change" - basically, it comments on Loose Change 2nd edition, pointing out its fallacies. You may want to watch that as well to come to a conclusion that&#39;s based on hearing two sides of the argument.

Also, I think that all this speculation about temperatures and steel will never clear up this issue - what needs to be done is to reproduce the settings and test it under controlled circumstances. That&#39;s the only way to, in physics, prove or disprove a hypothesis. The simple fact is that never before have airplanes flown into two skyscrapers, so you cannot make any definite statements as to what would have happened.

[Nambo]

The simple fact is that never before have airplanes flown into two skyscrapers, so you cannot make any definite statements as to what would have happened.[/b]


Well one airplane flew into one skyscraper once, The Empire State building, and that didnt fall down.

At least we can take the airplane/fuel issue out of the equasion when we look at World Trade Centre 7 which wasnt hit by anything.
What ever brought that building down on 911 was exactly the same as what brought the twin towers down.

To get this particular ball rolling, I will offer the "official" reasons, firstly, the diesel fuel tanks in the building caught fire and it melted.
But when they couldnt explain the lack of black diesel smoke, they changed the reason to, "an Earthquake", yes, thats right folks, on 911 an earthquake brought down WT7

It must have been a very localised eartquake as it didnt damage any other buildings and wasnt even picked up by the nearby seismographs that did detect bombs going off before the planes hit.

[Jeshurun]

Actually two earthquakes were recorded that day, at a seismic recording center located in Catskill NY, a 2.6 about 3 seconds before the beginning of the south tower&#39;s collapse, and a similar 2.3, also before the north tower&#39;s collapse.

But I think the main point is eluding us here. We are educated Bible students, are we not? So then we must understand how Satan works. Once you get into the core of Satan&#39;s plan, you begin to understand that everything must be based on deception. Doesn&#39;t that just fit marvelously into what the Revelation says?

Berean, the movie to which you referred, did you actually watch it? I only let it waste about 10 minutes of my time, it was an insult to human intelligence, and offered not one shred of evidence to debunk anything. Instead, it ridiculed "Loose Change" for beginning the documentary by showing how the US Government has been using deception as a consistent pattern for a very long time now. It was explaining the lies of Pearl Harbor and Vietnam. This movie offered no denial of those equally heinous acts of high treason and murder on a mass scale, that eventually led to genocidal scale during World War II, and the Vietnam Era that included things like Khmer Rouge and the upheaval and demoralization of society as a whole. All that pitiful movie could do was to put captions up saying "We still havent seen evidence of anything having to do with 9/11". The title alone should tell you about it&#39;s source.

Are we to assume that for the first time in the history of the United States of America that they are telling the truth about any major event, let alone the most cataclysmic one so far?

Let&#39;s forget the conspiracy stuff for a minute and focus on something, please. There are many more deceptions coming, so forget 9/11, don&#39;t dwell on it and get ready for the next one, because it&#39;s coming. And believe me, the next one will make 9/11 a distant memory.

This is the same United States of America to which this is referring:

¹⁴ And it misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that were granted it to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived. ¹⁵ And there was granted it to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who would not in any way worship the image of the wild beast.

[olrono]

<span style="font-family:Times New Roman">In a “nut shell” The United States has entered treaties with the united nations, (No Caps intentional!) to be the POLICE FORCE for the WORLD. They are using the red blooded patriotic men and women of America, to bring in the New World Order, all the wail believing they are just defending their country. (Do you understand how diabolical that is?) How many young men have died in Korea, Vietnam, during these police actions? Did you hear me?????????? I said united nations POLICE ACTIONS!!! The USA has NOT declared a WAR since WW2, yet everyone thinks we are at war now? Remember, you have “words”, and words mean things. You have to understand what words mean under the law. According to our Constitution, we are not at war, we are not even a sovereign country anymore, we are a vassal state of the united nations. And the treaties we have signed are now our obligation to enforce, and that’s what you see happening. And it won’t stop until Jehovah comes and stops it! All of these treaties are all documented fact, and judging by the level of interest you have, I don’t think you want to hash though all that, but that is why I hate the un, the un is not about bringing peace into the world. It is about bringing Satan’s world against Jehovah’s Government. And when I think how the Watchtower Society has fornicated with Satan’s organization, I get mad! And that is why I support Brother Watchman and his web site! And I will not even visit those idiots anymore over at that “refugee site of apostates” because they don’t have a clue about the un. I know they still come over here and read these posts. You know who you are, all you had to do is believe in the TRUTH and you would still be over here with us and be helping us educate our fellow Jehovah’s Witnesses about the NGO, and how important that issue is, instead of discussing all those ‘other’ important issues you have, like “masturbation”, and is “Armageddon really going to come”? Ha! And you call your self “Free thinkers”, they should be ashamed of them self!

[Nambo]

Er, (cough)...Olrono..that masturbation thread...(cough, cough)...well,...I think that might have been me. :icon_redface:

[Jeshurun]

I was gonna call a paramedic for Ole Ronnie but now I think I need one! :lol:

[DoubtingThomas]

I am not saying that it is beyond the realm of possibility that a government plot was behind the 9-11 attack, and that The Illuminati will not be used by Satan to establish a New World Order after the Anglo-American power receives it’s death stroke and the 8^th World Power/King takes over. I agree with what Jinnvisible wrote on Feb. 11 “It isn’t beyond possibility that a western government would carry out a 9/11 kind of attack and lay the blame somewhere else.”



I am just saying that if making this decision were a criminal trial, and I was a juror, that I could not say that I was convinced ‘beyond a reasonable doubt”. But I also agree with what Sketch wrote on Feb. 11^th that “I&#39;m not going to argue the point because I don&#39;t really care if it was or not. There is nothing I can do about it either way - I&#39;m more of an "okay, this happened, what’s my next move?" kind of guy..... but I DO like to hear all sides of a story...



I am like Sketch in that respect. I find it amusing and entertaining to read about all these “conspiracy theories”. But I don’t believe that George W. Bush is smart enough to pull-off such a conspiracy (he reminds me of Alfred E. Neuman in Mad Magazine). Too many would have to be involved in such a plot. It would be a huge undertaking. All it would take is one person to goof-up or “spill the beans” for the entire plot to unfold. I can’t believe The Illuminati for the same reason. Too many involved. It would only take one person sharing the story before they died to unfold the entire plot. It just hasn’t happened, so I can’t believe it.



But all of this is pure speculation, in spite of some emphatically stating it as fact, and belittling any others who don’t agree with them. We could spend countless hours debating the matter in circles, when it has already been done so “ad infinitem” on countless web sites by individuals who are experts in such matters. I don’t have the time, energy or desire to debate such matters, because in the grand scheme of things it just doesn’t matter. Jehovah has seen to reveal to us all that we need to know at this time. We don’t need all the minute details as to how the governments are gona be used by Satan to bring about the end of this system of things.



I think what is more important is that we do realize that after the Anglo-American world power receives it’s death stroke, it will be revived. And unless individuals agree to receive the mark of the wild beast, they will be persecuted. And that if we remain loyal Jehovah, and refuse to bow down to and serve and receive the mark (666) of whatever government (wild beast) Satan has seen to install and use, that we will be blessed.

[Jeshurun]

DT, they had a "trial".

It was called the "9/11 Commission Hearings".

There was enough evidence presented to convict a whole lot of people a hundred times over and send them off to Neptune. Many within the FBI, CIA, and different branches of the military gave enough testimony to warrant indictments all the way up the chain of command. The testimony of over 100 extremely connected witnesses was thrown out due to "national security". Also the most pertinent questions were never even asked. And guess who Bush initially tried to get to head the commission? Yes, the presiding royal knighted Illuminati king of coverups, Henry Kissinger. It raised such a commotion that they finally plugged in another puppet, and the whole thing was a whitewash anyway, as we all expected. After the trial, they were all hit with federal gag orders. So were many of the NYPD and FDNY. So what are they hiding, DT?

The sad thing is, even if they did convict and hang them all, they still wouldn&#39;t touch the real perpetrators at the top of the command. Some of us know who they are, if you want to know, I&#39;ll PM you.

You should google and find out about FBI translator Sibel Edmonds, and that would be just the tip of the iceberg.

[Berean]

Berean, the movie to which you referred, did you actually watch it? I only let it waste about 10 minutes of my time, it was an insult to human intelligence, and offered not one shred of evidence to debunk anything. Instead, it ridiculed "Loose Change" for beginning the documentary by showing how the US Government has been using deception as a consistent pattern for a very long time now. It was explaining the lies of Pearl Harbor and Vietnam. This movie offered no denial of those equally heinous acts of high treason and murder on a mass scale, that eventually led to genocidal scale during World War II, and the Vietnam Era that included things like Khmer Rouge and the upheaval and demoralization of society as a whole. All that pitiful movie could do was to put captions up saying "We still havent seen evidence of anything having to do with 9/11". The title alone should tell you about it&#39;s source.[/b]
I&#39;ve watched the first hour so far, and I found it to be an interesting film. Try to get past the beginning, because the film does address many of the issues in Loose Change that don&#39;t make a lot of sense. And I know the intro is mainly saying "nothing to do with 9/11", but that&#39;s because it&#39;s true. Loose Change starts with random events that they don&#39;t connect to 9/11 in any way, they just use it to set up an atmosphere in which you get suspicious of anything the US government does (and rightly so, because no human government anywhere is to be trusted).

But in the end, I must say I agree with DoubtingThomas. There are numerous theories about Illuminati and what not, but nowhere they give any concrete evidence as to who are involved, and what those individuals have done exactly to bring about certain events. I&#39;d like to see what Bush or other US government officials, or Illuminati, did to bring about 9/11. What orders did they give, where are the ties between the hi-jackers and the US government? This would take much detective work, much more than can be carried out in merely five years. We still don&#39;t know all the details about World War Two, for instance, which was over 60 years ago, while these conspiracy theorists claim to know everything about something that took place just five years ago?

All in all, I believe all these theories and such are brought into the world by Satan, to distract Christians from studying the Bible, while he is calmly pulling all the strings behind every human government, whether it consists of Freemasons (like the Belgian prime minister, who apparently warned Bush against starting a war in Iran), or Illuminati, or so-called Christian Democrats, or dictators in Africa who only care about themselves and not about a New World Order, or leaders at the extreme left of the political spectrum, like in Venezuela or in China. I think Paul said it best in 1 Timothy 1:4:

nor to pay attention to false stories and to genealogies, which end up in nothing, but which furnish questions for research rather than a dispensing of anything by God in connection with faith.

I am sorry if I come across as being overly harsh, but whatever side of the argument you&#39;re on, you&#39;re basically wasting time, because true Christians will recognize when to be on their toes, and the ones who aren&#39;t serious Bible students won&#39;t be convinced to guard against the dangers posed by human governments anyway.

[Shibboleth]

You are spot on Berean.

[Shibboleth]

<div class='quotemain'>The simple fact is that never before have airplanes flown into two skyscrapers, so you cannot make any definite statements as to what would have happened.[/b]


Well one airplane flew into one skyscraper once, The Empire State building, and that didnt fall down.

[/b][/quote]

The plane that flew into the Empire State Building was a B-25 Bomber. It&#39;s stats are at least 1/3rd of a 767.

767 223 ER

Length 48.5m (159&#39;-2")
Wingspan 47.6m (156&#39;-1")
Empty Weight 176,650 lbs
Max Take Off Weight 315,000 lbs


B-25 Bomber
Length 53&#39;-11"
Wingspan 67&#39;-6"
Height 17&#39;-7"
Empty Weight 21,120 lbs
Loaded Weight 33,510 lbs
Max Take Off Weight 41,800 lbs


If a 767 had flown into the Empire State Building I don&#39;t think it would have survived. You can&#39;t dispute the numbers that the B-25 is a much smaller plane and it most likely did not have a full payload (ie bombs and fuel) Where the 767&#39;s most likely had full fuel capacity and were probably just under the max weight limit.

If you look hard enough you can find a conspiracy theory in just about anything.

[Sketch]

If you look hard enough you can find a conspiracy theory in just about anything.[/b]

I happen to think the "grey poupon" actor was actually murdered by the Heinz ketchup people... I will have my stats together here soon...

[clay]

"If you look hard enough you can find a conspiracy theory in just about anything
I happen to think the "grey poupon" actor was actually murdered by the Heinz ketchup people... I will have my stats together here soon..."


ok Brother Smartie-Mouth, (no offense intended here) yer making me laugh out loud, which is very welcome in view of the sobering info here, most of which is new, but seemingly plausible to me. It tends to creep me out, this government-behind-the-government stuff, but even though, as some have pointed out, we can do nothing about it, it is fascinatingly absorbingly interesting. Good to be in the know about the whys and hows & you guys here are doing a bang up job of informing me. Don&#39;t want to get lost in it, tho, but it all makes sense when tied in with Scriptures. For one, I appreciate your research, since I dont have much time. Keep on keepin on. Thanks,
lumpa clay

[Shibboleth]

<div class='quotemain'>If you look hard enough you can find a conspiracy theory in just about anything.[/b]

I happen to think the "grey poupon" actor was actually murdered by the Heinz ketchup people... I will have my stats together here soon...
[/b][/quote]


Was that the same Col. Mustard from Clue? Cause I was sure he got hit over the head with a candlestick in the library by Professor Plum. :icon_razz:

[olrono]

<span style="font-family:Times New Roman">

[Nambo]

All in all, I believe all these theories and such are brought into the world by Satan, to distract Christians from studying the Bible, while he is calmly pulling all the strings behind every human government, whether it consists of Freemasons (like the Belgian prime minister, who apparently warned Bush against starting a war in Iran), or Illuminati, or so-called Christian Democrats, or dictators in Africa who only care about themselves and not about a New World Order, or leaders at the extreme left of the political spectrum, like in Venezuela or in China. I think Paul said it best in 1 Timothy 1:4:

nor to pay attention to false stories and to genealogies, which end up in nothing, but which furnish questions for research rather than a dispensing of anything by God in connection with faith.

I am sorry if I come across as being overly harsh, but whatever side of the argument you&#39;re on, you&#39;re basically wasting time, because true Christians will recognize when to be on their toes, and the ones who aren&#39;t serious Bible students won&#39;t be convinced to guard against the dangers posed by human governments anyway.[/b]

A good point Berean but I hope if there is another side of the coin, then some of us might have succeeded in covering that as well.
For, dont some scriptures indicate that Christians sholud be on the watch?, thats why the magazine is called Watchtower, shouldnt Christians decern the time of thier being inspected?
The whole JW movement has put a lot of emphesis on how events occuring in the world match Biblical Prophesis of the end times so a warning work has been carried out.

If we had just read the Bible and ignored what is going on around us, would we have been as much use to Jehovah?, or might we have been viewed as being asleep?

Scriptures warn that Satanic deciept might be so convincing, that even the Holy ones, who doubtless study thier Bibles, might even be decieved.

Is this what you want?

How about those of us who give up are time and credibility to do what we genuinly belive to be an important Christian work of warning about Satanic deciept being allowed to do so, just as those who have a gift with interpretation of scriptures being allowed to do so.

Of course anything constructive or real evidence we are wrong would be welcolmed, for no body likes to belive error, but please refrain from the sarcastic micky taking that was so prevalent of the old board and which only achieve the goals of the very people who we consider are behind the suppresion of truth.

[Sketch]

<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>If you look hard enough you can find a conspiracy theory in just about anything.[/b]
I happen to think the "grey poupon" actor was actually murdered by the Heinz ketchup people... I will have my stats together here soon...[/b][/quote]
Was that the same Col. Mustard from Clue? Cause I was sure he got hit over the head with a candlestick in the library by Professor Plum. :icon_razz: [/b][/quote]

No No NO!!! you have it ALL wrong!!!! It all began in Area-51 and Roswell... Ian Richardson was initially in the British royal special forces (SAS) with the US Airforce and the inspection of the ailien aircraft... one day he was having a burger at the mess hall and cried out how he HATED he american catsup (Ketchup)..... but being military, thats all they had - next to the tobasco sauce... he was used to having his fish and chips with mayo... ick... but anyway.. after getting out of the SAS - he had special instructions to have all the secrets he knew MAILED to the NY Times if he was killed, so the military had to let him live until they found it... in the mean time, he hooked up with coke working on the new formula back in the 70&#39;s... and by the time the 80&#39;s came around, he had what the PERFECT recipe. but the Illuminati - in a military-backed-attempt to destroy his life, got to it first and changed some of the formula... AND they had someone in the Pepsi marking department who suggested the "pepsi challange" at the same time that New Coke came out... so it all looked like Mr. Richardson was at fault - but in reality, he wasn&#39;t. His Original NEW Coke formula was locked away with his govenment secrets... after leaving Coke, he had some contacts in the mustard industry, and decided he was going to stick it to the military and their catsup (Ketchup) - if he had messed with the tobasco sauce, he would have incurred the wrath of the queen-dragon-substantiate-man-child-of-the-galaxy and therefore steered clear of the tobasco sauce..... so, to retalliate, the heinz people, with their connections through John Kerry - who just HAPPENED to lose to G.W. Bush - and therefore the illuniati (as we all know every politian has illuminati connections) partnered with the Knights Templar, in conjunction with the Knights of Columbus, the Fraternal Order of Elks, and the local girl scout troupe devised a plan to use CODE words on their bottles to let the FreeMasons know how close they were to getting BACK the government secrets that Mr. Richardson had. Thats why you see different slogans on their bottles... and they covered it up as a marketing ploy for the public to join... "covers grill marks" was really a code saying that the Vatican had found a map to the hidden secrets, located under the temple mount but catholics couldn&#39;t do the digging, so they got the Zionists to do it.... - and THATS why they are digging there... so, once they knew exactly where the secrets were hidden, the US military and the british SAS (in conjunction with henry kissinger and the NWO Underwriters), decided that it was safe enough to take the man out... so they got their umbrella-dart-gun and and jabbed him in the leg on waterloo bridge that was filled with ricin laced polonium-210. The cocktail was too much for the older man and he died of heart failure... but the white supremesists had another man on the grassy knoll just in case...

[Berean]

For, dont some scriptures indicate that Christians sholud be on the watch?, thats why the magazine is called Watchtower, shouldnt Christians decern the time of thier being inspected?
The whole JW movement has put a lot of emphesis on how events occuring in the world match Biblical Prophesis of the end times so a warning work has been carried out.[/b]
Yes, it is true that Christians should remain watchful at all times, but all the research in the world cannot uncover when &#39;that day&#39; will come, since only God knows when the end comes (Matthew 24:36). Personally, I think it is enough for us to recognize that the events Jesus said would signify the end times, are taking shape around us. Of course this means we cannot bury our heads in the sand, we have to recognize when summer is near, by looking at the fig tree (Matthew 24:32, 33).

I am the last to say that knowledge is bad for you, but sometimes it is better to stick with the knowledge that&#39;s truly important, and we all know what John 17:3 says about that. So in my opinion, Christians should keep a careful eye on the news, but at the same time, studying the Bible should come first, since that&#39;s the only place where we can find true wisdom. After all, anything we might research that&#39;s not related to faith in God, would amount to foolishness in God&#39;s eyes (1 Corinthians 3:19).

[Nambo]

No No NO!!! you have it ALL wrong!!!! It all began in Area-51 and Roswell... Ian Richardson was initially in the British royal special forces (SAS) with the US Airforce and the inspection of the ailien aircraft... one day he was having a burger at the mess hall and cried out how he HATED he american catsup (Ketchup)..... but being military, thats all they had - next to the tobasco sauce... he was used to having his fish and chips with mayo... ick... but anyway.. after getting out of the SAS - he had special instructions to have all the secrets he knew MAILED to the NY Times if he was killed, so the military had to let him live until they found it... in the mean time, he hooked up with coke working on the new formula back in the 70&#39;s... and by the time the 80&#39;s came around, he had what the PERFECT recipe. but the Illuminati - in a military-backed-attempt to destroy his life, got to it first and changed some of the formula... AND they had someone in the Pepsi marking department who suggested the "pepsi challange" at the same time that New Coke came out... so it all looked like Mr. Richardson was at fault - but in reality, he wasn&#39;t. His Original NEW Coke formula was locked away with his govenment secrets... after leaving Coke, he had some contacts in the mustard industry, and decided he was going to stick it to the military and their catsup (Ketchup) - if he had messed with the tobasco sauce, he would have incurred the wrath of the queen-dragon-substantiate-man-child-of-the-galaxy and therefore steered clear of the tobasco sauce..... so, to retalliate, the heinz people, with their connections through John Kerry - who just HAPPENED to lose to G.W. Bush - and therefore the illuniati (as we all know every politian has illuminati connections) partnered with the Knights Templar, in conjunction with the Knights of Columbus, the Fraternal Order of Elks, and the local girl scout troupe devised a plan to use CODE words on their bottles to let the FreeMasons know how close they were to getting BACK the government secrets that Mr. Richardson had. Thats why you see different slogans on their bottles... and they covered it up as a marketing ploy for the public to join... "covers grill marks" was really a code saying that the Vatican had found a map to the hidden secrets, located under the temple mount but catholics couldn&#39;t do the digging, so they got the Zionists to do it.... - and THATS why they are digging there... so, once they knew exactly where the secrets were hidden, the US military and the british SAS (in conjunction with henry kissinger and the NWO Underwriters), decided that it was safe enough to take the man out... so they got their umbrella-dart-gun and and jabbed him in the leg on waterloo bridge that was filled with ricin laced polonium-210. The cocktail was too much for the older man and he died of heart failure... but the white supremesists had another man on the grassy knoll just in case...[/b]

3 (http://) For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 (http://) and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”

Even if you consider this scripture misapplied Sketch, you have still identified yourself as a ridiculer with your ridicule.
Dont you know that ridicule is the last resort of those who do not have facts and logic to back up thier beliefs?

And if you dont agree with these "conspiracy theories" and have no interest in them, why such a determined effort to disrupt and conceal them from people who might find them interesting and usefull?

You havnt left the JWs to become a Free-mason have you sketch?

[Eli&#39;s Foe]

I&#39;ve read through this whole thread - some of it is very interesting, some of it less than convincing, some of it may be true, some of it undoubtedly is not. Who can separate the right from the wrong? - surely none of us. Hence whilst it is good to discuss these things, we must not become so caught up in our favoured theories so as to miss the point.

Are we here because we trust the biblical prophesies and because we feel there is great gain from listening to what ewatchman has brought to our attention, or are we more interested in propounding our own theories and belittling those of others. Or perhaps we give little merit to any of the theories - is that a reason to insult the intelligence of those who are searching for answers?

I dont personally think Sketch is a ridiculer of the promised presence, rather he is making a point, if in a rather contentious way. Surely though Sketch you must acknowledge that how ever you look at these matters, Satan is likely to be using all manner of conspiracies to promote his cause, so the idea of a conspiracy is in essence based in fact.

One thing I find interesting, is that no one considers the fact that the King of the North and the King of the South are at odds with each other, hence the manouvering and conspiracies probably have more to do with that age old conflict than in the King of the South, ie the USA (or certain factions within that country) manouvering every event to bring about WWIII. Is it not more credible that the Imperialist King of the North is in effect pushing the US in the general direction it desires? If so, those who are complicit in this matter are certainly in allegiance with those aims. (The UN was mentioned by one writer, but we should remember that the UN we know now is very different from the tyrranical power which will in time replace the anglo-american world power and it is not the UN as presently conceived which holds the US in its sway - albeit that there must be some parties involved even now, who support the global imperialist aims of the King of the North).

What ever the case, I support the reminders given by Berean, earlier in this thread. To consider events, to turn them over in our minds and to discuss them is not wrong especially if they serve the purpose of keeping us awake, but brothers let us keep the scriptures uppermost in our minds. Satan has a 6000 year head-start on us, dont be surprised if he outwits us in the short-term, he cannot outwit Jehovah or or Lord Jesus Christ. Rather, keep awake and open to all possibilities. In the meantime, we can all benefit from hearing the thoughts of others, cant we?

EF

[Sketch]

Even if you consider this scripture misapplied Sketch, you have still identified yourself as a ridiculer with your ridicule.
Dont you know that ridicule is the last resort of those who do not have facts and logic to back up thier beliefs?

And if you dont agree with these "conspiracy theories" and have no interest in them, why such a determined effort to disrupt and conceal them from people who might find them interesting and usefull?[/b]

Logic, sir, is subjective.... but aside from that, I poke fun at myself as well... if only due to my own spelling...
So what you&#39;re saying is that its okay to SUPPORT what YOU believe, and come up with conspiracy theories and defend THEM, and call yourselves "generals" (and assume Jehovah needs you to fight HIS battles), and leaders and espouse your OWN agenda and beliefs outside of the statutes of this website, but its not okay for ME to just because it goes against what YOU think? what if i REALLY DO BELIEVE the Grey Poupon/Heinz theory? why does that make me less of a contributor?

Look, I don&#39;t really CARE about conspiracy theories. They are interesting to some degree as they are another point of view. I try to get as many viewpoints as I can. something to read while im in the think tank. I do not base my life around them as some here have. I don&#39;t think it does ANY good. the point of my last post was to show everyone here that conspiracy theories ABOUND, and one can be found in ANYTHING from the moon landing to Anna Nicole Smith. but really, how does knowing the Ins and outs of this "conspiracy" gets you ANY closer to being saved in the end? 9-11 happened. Regardless of who was involved, its still effects us. maybe it WAS a gov&#39;t based conspiracy, maybe not. Does it effect us any more or less if the US Government is envolved? You still have to deal with it, AND the after effects (i.e. patriot act, war in middle east, etc...). when the end comes are you going to be concerned with how to make it to the next day or the politics and partnerships behind that end? The people who make it their lives have literally turned it into a soap opera...

Your logic tells you its true.
My logic tells me its unlikely, but possible. tell me why my opinion is worth any less than yours? wouldn&#39;t that make YOU the ridiculer?

[Jeshurun]

First of all, Berean I must tell you that I forced myself to watch the rest of that movie. What it was doing was attacking all the circumstantial evidence. That&#39;s because there is very little real evidence, because it&#39;s all locked in a vault by the FBI as "classified". For instance, the Pentagon is the most heavily secured building in the world, with thousands of cameras. So why not show us a picture of whatever hit it? Where was the debris, anyway? What little there was was carried off by a few cleanup people, by hand! There is plenty of testimony, as I said earlier, but that&#39;s all been thrown out as "inadmissable" due to "national security" concerns. You know what that means? The nation would REVOLT if they saw it! George HW Bush once said, "If the American people knew what we were up to, they would string us all up from the lightpoles".

Try to think of this whole thing like the mafia. Do the families of the mafia have a central boss? Yes, the "Godfather". Do people deny he exists? No. Does anyone try to implicate him? Maybe, but they know they&#39;ll end up dead.

It is similar with Satan&#39;s mafia. The families consist of the CIA, the MOSSAD, MI5 and MI6, and so on. And everything has been carefully planned to make the Zionists the scapegoat. Sure, blame everything on the Jews, what else is new? It draws attention away from the real bosses. Satan has had thousands of years to set this up, and he has!

How can we underestimate the advantage that those with insight will have during the coming horrors? Yes, the Bible gives us an overall view of things, but does it give explicit details? That&#39;s where Jehovah, the Revealer of Secrets comes in. Many in Satan&#39;s mafia turn out to be whistleblowers, sometimes on their deathbed, due to a change of heart. Others risk life and limb to expose them while they&#39;re still healthy, because they are driven!

If we can&#39;t recognize 9/11 for what it is, what happens when they nuke a few cities? Won&#39;t we know who did it? Or will we fall for the Arab terrorist garbage again?

[olrono]

<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>If you look hard enough you can find a conspiracy theory in just about anything.[/b]
I happen to think the "grey poupon" actor was actually murdered by the Heinz ketchup people... I will have my stats together here soon...[/b][/quote]
Was that the same Col. Mustard from Clue? Cause I was sure he got hit over the head with a candlestick in the library by Professor Plum. :icon_razz: [/b][/quote]

No No NO!!! you have it ALL wrong!!!! It all began in Area-51 and Roswell... Ian Richardson was initially in the British royal special forces (SAS) with the US Airforce and the inspection of the ailien aircraft... one day he was having a burger at the mess hall and cried out how he HATED he american catsup (Ketchup)..... but being military, thats all they had - next to the tobasco sauce... he was used to having his fish and chips with mayo... ick... but anyway.. after getting out of the SAS - he had special instructions to have all the secrets he knew MAILED to the NY Times if he was killed, so the military had to let him live until they found it... in the mean time, he hooked up with coke working on the new formula back in the 70&#39;s... and by the time the 80&#39;s came around, he had what the PERFECT recipe. but the Illuminati - in a military-backed-attempt to destroy his life, got to it first and changed some of the formula... AND they had someone in the Pepsi marking department who suggested the "pepsi challange" at the same time that New Coke came out... so it all looked like Mr. Richardson was at fault - but in reality, he wasn&#39;t. His Original NEW Coke formula was locked away with his govenment secrets... after leaving Coke, he had some contacts in the mustard industry, and decided he was going to stick it to the military and their catsup (Ketchup) - if he had messed with the tobasco sauce, he would have incurred the wrath of the queen-dragon-substantiate-man-child-of-the-galaxy and therefore steered clear of the tobasco sauce..... so, to retalliate, the heinz people, with their connections through John Kerry - who just HAPPENED to lose to G.W. Bush - and therefore the illuniati (as we all know every politian has illuminati connections) partnered with the Knights Templar, in conjunction with the Knights of Columbus, the Fraternal Order of Elks, and the local girl scout troupe devised a plan to use CODE words on their bottles to let the FreeMasons know how close they were to getting BACK the government secrets that Mr. Richardson had. Thats why you see different slogans on their bottles... and they covered it up as a marketing ploy for the public to join... "covers grill marks" was really a code saying that the Vatican had found a map to the hidden secrets, located under the temple mount but catholics couldn&#39;t do the digging, so they got the Zionists to do it.... - and THATS why they are digging there... so, once they knew exactly where the secrets were hidden, the US military and the british SAS (in conjunction with henry kissinger and the NWO Underwriters), decided that it was safe enough to take the man out... so they got their umbrella-dart-gun and and jabbed him in the leg on waterloo bridge that was filled with ricin laced polonium-210. The cocktail was too much for the older man and he died of heart failure... but the white supremesists had another man on the grassy knoll just in case...
[/b][/quote]
Very funny son, I hope you will be as light hearted when they arrest you and your family and take you all away to the detention centers. For it will be hard enough on the women and children without your levity.

[olrono]

I am with Brother Watchman in his effort here to this end, to use this Data Base for this purpose.

[Nambo]

Logic, sir, is subjective.... but aside from that, I poke fun at myself as well... if only due to my own spelling...
So what you&#39;re saying is that its okay to SUPPORT what YOU believe, and come up with conspiracy theories and defend THEM, and call yourselves "generals" (and assume Jehovah needs you to fight HIS battles), and leaders and espouse your OWN agenda and beliefs outside of the statutes of this website, but its not okay for ME to just because it goes against what YOU think? what if i REALLY DO BELIEVE the Grey Poupon/Heinz theory? why does that make me less of a contributor?

Look, I don&#39;t really CARE about conspiracy theories. They are interesting to some degree as they are another point of view. I try to get as many viewpoints as I can. something to read while im in the think tank. I do not base my life around them as some here have. I don&#39;t think it does ANY good. the point of my last post was to show everyone here that conspiracy theories ABOUND, and one can be found in ANYTHING from the moon landing to Anna Nicole Smith. but really, how does knowing the Ins and outs of this "conspiracy" gets you ANY closer to being saved in the end? 9-11 happened. Regardless of who was involved, its still effects us. maybe it WAS a gov&#39;t based conspiracy, maybe not. Does it effect us any more or less if the US Government is envolved? You still have to deal with it, AND the after effects (i.e. patriot act, war in middle east, etc...). when the end comes are you going to be concerned with how to make it to the next day or the politics and partnerships behind that end? The people who make it their lives have literally turned it into a soap opera...

Your logic tells you its true.
My logic tells me its unlikely, but possible. tell me why my opinion is worth any less than yours? wouldn&#39;t that make YOU the ridiculer?[/b]

Firstly Sketch, I do not recall complaining about your opinion, rather about about disrupting threads which you do not like by using ridicule.

As for being outside the statutes of this website, I thought this website was to do with how Biblical prophesy is being fullfilled in view of the Jehovahs Witnesses seemingly stuck at 1914.

And calling ourselves "generals", where did we call ourselves that?, but never mind for isnt that what Jehovahs Witnesses do?, knock on peoples doors informing them how events they percieve to be of significance indicate we are living in the time of the end?

Whilst you might like to belive everything I post is pure supposition, maybe you would like to look deeper into the sources I quote, questions raised in the House of Commons and the House of Lords about top ministers, including the Prime Minister being Builderbergs, these are not things I have made up, these are quotes from Hansards, that means every word spoken in the Houses is faithfully recorded, though not allways advertised.
But would you rather I keep my mouth shut and hide my lamp under a bushell because this particular world view isnt the one that YOU want?

As for "conspiracy theories abound", indeed they do, same as religions abound, doesnt mean they are either all true or all lies. Its a good tool though to keep the people in darkness.

And maybe you are correct in that it will make no differance if we are aware of whats really going on or not, but I will repeat what I said earlier, what is wrong with allowing people the choice of options, to sit in the dark waiting for it to be all over, or realising the state of things in order to make an informed choice, for knowledge is indeed power and as I also said before, even some of the Holy ones might be decieved so tell me why dont you want this information brought out on display if it might help people to not be decieved?

b

[olrono]

I&#39;ve read through this whole thread - some of it is very interesting, some of it less than convincing, some of it may be true, some of it undoubtedly is not. Who can separate the right from the wrong? - surely none of us. Hence whilst it is good to discuss these things, we must not become so caught up in our favoured theories so as to miss the point.

Are we here because we trust the biblical prophesies and because we feel there is great gain from listening to what ewatchman has brought to our attention, or are we more interested in propounding our own theories and belittling those of others. Or perhaps we give little merit to any of the theories - is that a reason to insult the intelligence of those who are searching for answers?

I dont personally think Sketch is a ridiculer of the promised presence, rather he is making a point, if in a rather contentious way. Surely though Sketch you must acknowledge that how ever you look at these matters, Satan is likely to be using all manner of conspiracies to promote his cause, so the idea of a conspiracy is in essence based in fact.

One thing I find interesting, is that no one considers the fact that the King of the North and the King of the South are at odds with each other, hence the manouvering and conspiracies probably have more to do with that age old conflict than in the King of the South, ie the USA (or certain factions within that country) manouvering every event to bring about WWIII. Is it not more credible that the Imperialist King of the North is in effect pushing the US in the general direction it desires? If so, those who are complicit in this matter are certainly in allegiance with those aims. (The UN was mentioned by one writer, but we should remember that the UN we know now is very different from the tyrranical power which will in time replace the anglo-american world power and it is not the UN as presently conceived which holds the US in its sway - albeit that there must be some parties involved even now, who support the global imperialist aims of the King of the North).

What ever the case, I support the reminders given by Berean, earlier in this thread. To consider events, to turn them over in our minds and to discuss them is not wrong especially if they serve the purpose of keeping us awake, but brothers let us keep the scriptures uppermost in our minds. Satan has a 6000 year head-start on us, dont be surprised if he outwits us in the short-term, he cannot outwit Jehovah or or Lord Jesus Christ. Rather, keep awake and open to all possibilities. In the meantime, we can all benefit from hearing the thoughts of others, cant we?

EF[/b]

Eli’s Foe wrote…

“One thing I find interesting, is that no one considers the fact that the King of the North and the King of the South are at odds with each other, hence the maneuvering and conspiracies probably have more to do with that age old conflict than in the King of the South, i.e. the USA (or certain factions within that country) maneuvering every event to bring about WWIII.”



Interesting point, have you ever heard of the “Hegelian Dialectic”? If I may try to put this to my own words, it goes like this… You start with two opposing sides, and the conflict between these two sides brings about the desired effect you ultimately wanted. I think this may be the case since in Scripture the other King is not mentioned anymore after a time. What do you think? Thanks, olrono

[Sketch]

.... I will repeat what I said earlier, what is wrong with allowing people the choice of options, to sit in the dark waiting for it to be all over, or realising the state of things in order to make an informed choice, for knowledge is indeed power[/b]

No, APPLIED knowledge is power. People must APPLY the knowledge they have/receive. As I&#39;ve said in the begining - I WANT to hear different viewpoints - the problem comes when OTHER people are not open to hearing them. Its THEIR opinion and NO OTHER ideas are allowed. I brought up the idea that maybe the conspiracy theory stuff is bogus. maybe. and people jumped on me. people are calling themselves generals and leaders and its starting to get too "david koresh" - so I brought in some humor. lighten up. people take these conspiracy theories WAY too seriously.


tell me why dont you want this information brought out on display if it might help people to not be decieved?[/b]

deceived by who? the Governements or Satan? aren&#39;t they pretty much one and the same? so, if they ARE one and the same, why do the details matter? If your ONLY option is to depend on Jehovah, then why does it matter what is coming at you? Its ALL satan&#39;s doing anyway.

You have not answered my question. If in fact someone, the likes of dick cheney or rumsfeld really WAS behind 9-11, tell me, how does that effect YOUR faith in JEHOVAH? and HOW would it be effected if they WERE NOT involved? whats done is done and can&#39;t be undone. you still have to live your life. living in FEAR is not living. always assuming that someone is upto no good not only damages your relationship with that person, but also starts to corrode your close personal relationships (i.e. spouse, etc...).

extended hypervigilance is a disease of the paranoid.

[Nambo]

<div class='quotemain'>.... I will repeat what I said earlier, what is wrong with allowing people the choice of options, to sit in the dark waiting for it to be all over, or realising the state of things in order to make an informed choice, for knowledge is indeed power[/b]

No, APPLIED knowledge is power. People must APPLY the knowledge they have/receive. As I&#39;ve said in the begining - I WANT to hear different viewpoints - the problem comes when OTHER people are not open to hearing them. Its THEIR opinion and NO OTHER ideas are allowed. I brought up the idea that maybe the conspiracy theory stuff is bogus. maybe. and people jumped on me. people are calling themselves generals and leaders and its starting to get too "david koresh" - so I brought in some humor. lighten up. people take these conspiracy theories WAY too seriously.


tell me why dont you want this information brought out on display if it might help people to not be decieved?[/b]

deceived by who? the Governements or Satan? aren&#39;t they pretty much one and the same? so, if they ARE one and the same, why do the details matter? If your ONLY option is to depend on Jehovah, then why does it matter what is coming at you? Its ALL satan&#39;s doing anyway.

You have not answered my question. If in fact someone, the likes of dick cheney or rumsfeld really WAS behind 9-11, tell me, how does that effect YOUR faith in JEHOVAH? and HOW would it be effected if they WERE NOT involved? whats done is done and can&#39;t be undone. you still have to live your life. living in FEAR is not living. always assuming that someone is upto no good not only damages your relationship with that person, but also starts to corrode your close personal relationships (i.e. spouse, etc...).

extended hypervigilance is a disease of the paranoid.
[/b][/quote]

Making an informed choice, isnt that the application of the knowledge if its so important to you.

As for not allowing others opinions, show me where please?, in fact I request others opinions, please, I dnt want to be mislead, please, tell me how World Trade Centre 7 came down?
Why wont any of you scoffers ever answer me this?

I will ask it again as it never ever seems to be addressed.

What made WT7 come down?

Thier you go Sketch, Iam begging you for your opinion.

As for Generals and leaders, once again I ask, where do you get this from, or is it just more emotional blackmail to try and shut us up for some reason?

Iam glad you agree that (elements) of the Government and Satan are the same thing, no it doesnt effect my relationship with Jehovah, but for those who cannot comprehend mistrusting the government, it could make a big differance.

Also the field service, many people now belive the governments are corrupt, the Daily Mail claims that 3/4s of Americans belive the government had something to do with 911.
Now if JWs are still knocking on doors and preaching terrorism is a product of evil Islam, it wont do the rest of the Kingdom Message much good if the house-holder allready thinks the Jehovahs Witness doesnt know what hes talking about.

And as for "living in Fear", this was used on the old board to try and steer us off revealing masianic secrets, that we where frightening people, well, didnt you read that the truth will set you free?
free from the fear of terrorism, free from the fear of global warming, free from all the deiciept designed to make us except a New World Order, whilst we hold our heads erect, knowing our deliverance is getting near.
in fact

[Sketch]

Making an informed choice, isnt that the application of the knowledge if its so important to you.[/b]

a choice about WHAT? if one believes that the 9-11 attacks were a conspiracy or not, either way, what GOOD does it do that person&#39;s faith?



I will ask it again as it never ever seems to be addressed.What made WT7 come down?Thier you go Sketch, Iam begging you for your opinion.[/b]

my opinion is that I don&#39;t CARE! if it was brought down by the other towers, or by detcord, it does not effect one single thing I do during the day (other than the changes that came along with ALL of 9-11 and subsequent attacks). No one died when it came down. So why is it of so much concern to you? tell me why it matters one way or the other? It all happened as a consequence of one of Satan&#39;s attacks... wouldn&#39;t you agree?


As for Generals and leaders, once again I ask, where do you get this from, or is it just more emotional blackmail to try and shut us up for some reason?[/b]

?? are you even reading the OTHER comments on this thread?

Some of us are apparently not qualified to be "Generals" in this affair, they would rather just be private solders just defending themselves...[/b]


Iam glad you agree that (elements) of the Government and Satan are the same thing, no it doesnt effect my relationship with Jehovah, but for those who cannot comprehend mistrusting the government, it could make a big differance.[/b]

Then i guess we found the main crux of our conversation as I can not imagine TRUSTING the government... That doesn&#39;t mean I think they are the boogeyman... I don&#39;t believe in silent, black helicopters flying down to abduct someone...


Now if JWs are still knocking on doors and preaching terrorism is a product of evil Islam, it wont do the rest of the Kingdom Message much good...[/b]

actually it will, once everyone knows that religion is just a parasite leaching and dividing men.... so in the big picture, its a good thing...


And as for "living in Fear", this was used on the old board to try and steer us off revealing masianic secrets[/b]

"old board" ?? the old watchman board? if thats it, then I only poked my head in from time to time... i didn&#39;t follow it much.... got tired of people saying how the NEW Bible Students were this or that... I am ALL FOR learning as much as possible, but don&#39;t let it take over your life.... Jim Carrey has a new movie coming out called "The Number 23"... its gets into the paranoia about seeing what you WANT to see...

[DoubtingThomas]

In The Dawning of a New World Order essay by e-Watchman, which he says was a result of more than a decade of research into the ongoing conspiracy to establish a New World Order, Robert clearly shows how this conspiracy of the KON (Britain) to overtake the KOS (America) is near to being complete. Robert writes: It is not at all unthinkable that the looming financial collapse, perhaps combined with a terrorist attack on Washington D.C., or some other war event, would result in the transferal of the United States&#39; military sovereignty to the United Nations authority.



At this point the UN becomes the New World Order and final King of Bible prophecy. It gets its power from the US and Great Britain after the financial collapse of this economic system. How do the Illuminati fit into this picture? Please explain. And why does the KON want to attack it’s own self, and then blame it on terrorist? Does it want to turn it’s own power and sovereignty over to the UN? I don’t believe that it wants to, or that the Illuminati are behind it. I do believe it will happen though. But I don’t believe it will be the desire of the US government to give up its power and sovereignty because it wants to. It will be out of necessity after the collapse of the global economic system of things.



These are just a few thoughts that are part of my thinking process on this thread, which just won’t seem to die and go away. We keep resurrecting it.



And Robert seems fit to let us keep arguing about it like a bunch of children. I wish that he would weigh in with his own thoughts on the subject too.

[olrono]

I have a Question for all the so called “conspiracy theory” non believers, “How many hours of television do you watch? How many hours do you use in listening to your favorite music ‘artist’?” How many have found it challenging answering my “Sharpening Your Swords” thread? How many of you have really “home Bible studies” with your families? In fact, what do you think you want to accomplish by posting here? Are you really trying to encourage our brothers in these last days, or is this the “new entertainment” posting every where? If they seem to get carried away some times in their efforts to expose Satan’s system of things, God bless them, at least there not wasting their life away at the “big screen TV”. By the way, how many of you have bought one of those?

[Jeshurun]

At this point the UN becomes the New World Order and final King of Bible prophecy. It gets its power from the US and Great Britain after the financial collapse of this economic system. How do the Illuminati fit into this picture? Please explain. And why does the KON want to attack it&#39;s own self, and then blame it on terrorist? Does it want to turn it&#39;s own power and sovereignty over to the UN? I don&#39;t believe that it wants to, or that the Illuminati are behind it. I do believe it will happen though. But I don&#39;t believe it will be the desire of the US government to give up its power and sovereignty because it wants to. It will be out of necessity after the collapse of the global economic system of things.[/b]

One thing you might want to try is to go to e-Watchman, and first notice the Illuminati symbol right in the middle of the picture where the Watchman is sitting. Then, hit the search button, and then when google comes up, type in "conspiracy". You might be surprised at what you find.

I will try to relate my own experience to this.

For some inexplicable reason, I went along for five years after 9/11 never giving a second thought as to whether it was an inside job. Although when the towers collapsed I was quite perplexed. I knew very much how solidly they were built. I worked there for 19 years. The fires were almost out. The thick black smoke was testimony to that. But I, like almost everybody else, got caught up in the drama, the disinformation, the anger of being attacked by radical Muslims, on our own soil, for no apparent reason other than having freedoms that they didn&#39;t believe in. I had no problem giving up some of my freedoms if it would help them catch these vermine. Sure, tap my phone, I have nothing to hide, if you have nothing better to do. I was hanging the flag every day, tuning into Foxnews all the time like a good soldier, the good patriot. I was fully behind the Iraq invasion, totally captivated by the whole scene, the shock and awe. And I thought, the WMD&#39;s went to Syria, simple, they have to be dealt with next.

Then one day it hit me. Why, oh why, have they not caught Bin Laden? Why, they don&#39;t even talk about him anymore. All of a sudden, it&#39;s like Saddam was the one that bombed us. Then came the admission of "faulty intelligence" about the WMD&#39;s. Why on earth is it our responsibility to liberate the Iraquis? How about the carnage going on in North Korea, which is ten times worse? Why aren&#39;t we going in there if we are the world&#39;s cops against the evil madmen tyrants?

You see, if I were still thinking like the good patriot, that my government was on my side, might I not be fooled into trusting them? Maybe taking some kind of mark, for my own protection? Of course my allegiance is ultimately to Jehovah, but if I didn&#39;t know who the real enemy was, might I let my guard up in a time of extreme crisis?

There are horrors coming that we can be prepared for if we dare peer into them. Not only for our own sakes, but for all those around us. When all this stuff finally goes down, Jehovah will be depending on us, for a witness. It&#39;s a sobering and challenging and daunting task. But if you are going to be a light to the world, believe me, you better know who the enemy is.

[DoubtingThomas]

Even when the Illuminati achieve their objective of a New World Order, do you think the UN is what they are expecting? They are gona get their wish (according to Bible prophecy), but boy are they gona be suprised!

As far us, aren&#39;t we excited and looking forward to that time? Aren&#39;t we ready to die for our faith, or be encarcerated in those camps they are preparing for us? I am ready! Our strength will come from Jehovah. Our weapons are the spiritual suit of armour. This is not a carnal warfare we are engaged in. Jesus says to stand back and watch him destroy God&#39;s enemies. We don&#39;t fight the battle physically against Satan and God&#39;s enemies.

What about the Illuminati symbol on the e-Watchman home page? Are you reading something into that? If so, please enlighten me.

Yes, I have googled conspiracy at the e-watchman search button. Also "Illuminati", "9-11", "terrorism", etc. I have also researched these on Wikipedia and other reputable research sites. We are just reaching a different conclusion about weither terrorism is a pack of lies.

Fortunately it does not matter if I am right or you are right on this particular matter of terrorism being a lie. What matters is that we do agree on the final outcome of the fact that a New World Order is soon being established, and this is when the end of this system really begins. But what is gona happen is gona happen. And we are doing what we are supposed to be doing by warning others, and being there for them when these things start to occur.

[Nambo]

In The Dawning of a New World Order essay by e-Watchman, which he says was a result of more than a decade of research into the ongoing conspiracy to establish a New World Order, Robert clearly shows how this conspiracy of the KON (Britain) to overtake the KOS (America) is near to being complete. Robert writes: It is not at all unthinkable that the looming financial collapse, perhaps combined with a terrorist attack on Washington D.C., or some other war event, would result in the transferal of the United States&#39; military sovereignty to the United Nations authority.



At this point the UN becomes the New World Order and final King of Bible prophecy. It gets its power from the US and Great Britain after the financial collapse of this economic system. How do the Illuminati fit into this picture? Please explain. And why does the KON want to attack it&#39;s own self, and then blame it on terrorist? Does it want to turn it&#39;s own power and sovereignty over to the UN? I don&#39;t believe that it wants to, or that the Illuminati are behind it. I do believe it will happen though. But I don&#39;t believe it will be the desire of the US government to give up its power and sovereignty because it wants to. It will be out of necessity after the collapse of the global economic system of things.



These are just a few thoughts that are part of my thinking process on this thread, which just won&#39;t seem to die and go away. We keep resurrecting it.



And Robert seems fit to let us keep arguing about it like a bunch of children. I wish that he would weigh in with his own thoughts on the subject too.[/b]

Hi DT,
When you think Illuminati, think Free-mason Elite.
There are a group of people who put thier own "Club", with its own goals, far above intergrity to any particular Nation.

Maybe you could do some reasearch on the Free-masons, you will find they aim to infiltrate governments with the intention of gradually destroying them in such a way that thier own One World United Nations government takes up the vacuum of power.
You can see Free-Mason symbolism that indicates this such as the globe caught in a net carved outside Masonic Lodges.

You will also discover that the god the Free-Masons worship is Jahbulon, Satan, now Satan wants a One World Order, a false kingdom, like Nimrod had, Satan controls the world and its wealth, so he gives this money and power to those who carry out his great "Plan", which is the same "Plan" Free-Masons are building, with this Money and Power, those who do Satans work can get inside any government, not because you voted them there, are because they are honourable Americans, but so that they can destroy like a parasite whilst thier own "Government" can grow fat.

If you ever wondered why everything your Government does seem to make life worst, or goes against the wish of the "voters", well this is why.

[DoubtingThomas]

Nambo ... (for the sake of argument) Let us say that you are 100% correct about the Masons. And you very well may be spot on about this.

Isn&#39;t this what the Bible says will happen? That Satan will use some tool, power or governemnt to establish a New World Order. And don&#39;t we understand that new governement to be the UN?

Isn&#39;t that what we are looking forward to happening according to prophecy?

Is there anything we can do to stop this from happening?

Aren&#39;t we doing what we are supposed to be doing as God&#39;s people right now - by sounding the warning?

It is evident to me that Robert King has been annointed by Jehovah. He is "born again". His writings are evidence of this special spiritual insight that Jehovah has blessed him with. I could spend the rest of my life trying to gain the insight he has into the prophecies, and never get what he has, unless god blessed me in a very special way. I believe he is being used by God (I will stop short of saying that I am a RK follower though). But even watchman has not been so bold as to declare that terrorism is a lie.

We (on this DB) are a spectacle to the world. People come here to see what we have to offer or say. I think we need to be careful in our speculation that we do not go beyond what is written, so that we do not distract from the message, by others thinking we are a bunch of nuts or kooks here. If we just stick to the Word, we can&#39;t go wrong!

[Jeshurun]

What about the Illuminati symbol on the e-Watchman home page? Are you reading something into that? If so, please enlighten me.[/b]

Not at all, DT, that symbol goes back to ancient Babylon, that&#39;s when the conspiracy began. The NWO will be a modern day completion of the Tower of Babel. You can see that symbol everywhere, it&#39;s on the arm patch of the British MI5, it&#39;s also the symbol for many of the UN&#39;s sub-organizations. The thirteen steps that you see represent the 13 families of the Illuminati. And its important to note that "Illuminati" is a generic term and they really no longer even exist as an actual finite group. It has broadened into a whole range of organizations that we have discussed in detail on these threads.

I agree with you on all your points about what it really boils down to. But remember that Babylon the Great is going to be destroyed, which means all these conspiracies are going to be thwarted at some point, and there will be only one entity left, the Luciferian doctrine. That&#39;s what it was in the beginning, and that&#39;s what it will be in the end, Jehovah vs. Satan. But an awful lot of things have to take place between now and then.

Don&#39;t think for a minute that all these government leaders are not knowingly leading the world into the NWO, they absolutely know and are going along with the big boss on top, because they have no choice. But yes, they are in for some big surprises in that their NWO is going to fail, big time, finally exposing Satan. Also it is important to remember, vitally important, that this NWO is sanctioned by Jehovah, to mete out justice, which means they will do a lot of destruction to themselves along the way, clearing the way for the final confrontation, while the whole world (whoever is left) will be fully aware that they sold their souls to this horrible beast out of their own doing.

Also a message for Berean, that although it is true that we do not know of the day and the hour of Jesus&#39; arrival, the Parousia, but Jehovah has been merciful enough to let us know how long we will have to endure once the beast takes over, "Happy and holy is the one who is keeping in expectation and arrives at the one thousand three hundred and thirty five days!"

[Molly]

Good Evening All-

The bottom line is that there are four lines of evidence that prove the points made by Jeshurun and others:

1. The Illuminati, the Committee of 300, the Bilderbergers, or the Elite,
2. The Freemasons, or the Satanists (Luciferians), the occultists,
3. The Bible, especially the prophesies and Revelation, and
4. The evidentiary trail, or the conspiracy theorists.

The amazing thing is that they all say the same thing! Well, except for the Luciferians who think actually that Satan will win. In any case, it is way beyond probability that they would all be in line on virtually all issues.

Satan knows whats going on and what the plan is, which is why he has his counterfeit plans which are just close enough to Jehovah&#39;s to decieve any that would like to believe his plan. If anyone wishes to understand just how close his conspiracies are they should read Alexander Hislop&#39;s The Two Babylons. He has a counterfeit plan for just about everything that can be imagined.

Satan is misleading the entire inhabited world, including those at the Hall. We don&#39;t need to be included with those who are being misled. Thirty years ago when I first learned about the Illuminati, you couldn&#39;t Google information about them. Libraries didn&#39;t have books about them. But today they are being revealed to us for a reason.

Molly

[DoubtingThomas]

And I think that what you have spoken Molly should be the final word on this thread.

[Jeshurun]

By the way, terrorism does exist, even Muslim terrorists. The deception comes from who created it,and who is fomenting it, and whether or not it was those same terrorists who attacked the USA on 9/11. The question to ask is, who benefits from Israel and Arabs destroying each other while as usual Israel drags the US into their yardfight and for some reason the US never says no.

[Sketch]

<div class=\'quotetop\'>QUOTE(Jeshurun @ Feb 17 2007, 08:55 PM) 1902</div><div class=\'quotemain\'>But if you are going to be a light to the world, believe me, you better know who the enemy is.[/b][/quote]

The "enemy" is Satan, regardless of who&#39;s face he is showing you... gov&#39;t or otherwise...

[Shibboleth]

What&#39;s written in Matthew ch. 24 should be the most important things on our minds as we watch this world spiral into the maelstorm.

The words and teachings of Jesus Christ should be our no. 1 priority. That is the only way we can achieve salvation.

We can watch T.V. 24/7, we can surf the internet for the next big conspiracy, we can read every newspaper in the world, but if we don&#39;t have faith in Jesus and Jehovah we will never gain the reward of paradise.

I actually thought Sketch&#39;s version of the conspiracy of mustard was pretty funny and I don&#39;t think people should be offended by that. As much as conspiracies sound far fetched to me I don&#39;t rule them out. I am also not blinded by the government like alot of people are. i know they lie. I know the cover things up. I just choose not to get caught up in the lies. I don&#39;t let it consume me. I can&#39;t change the way the government works. None of us can.

My questions to all those who read into all of these conspiracy theorys is : What happens if these theories end up being false? What if the way you view the end times does not happen the way you preceived it through conspiracy theories? People speculate that there will be a NWO, but what if it doesn&#39;t happen exactly like that? What if it is just another blind that Satan used to capture more people?

Personally I am open to any scenario that people may bring up. Whether it is conspiracy or biblical or just someone letting their thoughts speak up. It&#39;s when you get closed minded that your way is the only way that you have fallen into the trap.

Regards,

Shibboleth

[Jeshurun]

What&#39;s written in Matthew ch. 24 should be the most important things on our minds as we watch this world spiral into the maelstorm.

The words and teachings of Jesus Christ should be our no. 1 priority. That is the only way we can achieve salvation.

My questions to all those who read into all of these conspiracy theorys is : What happens if these theories end up being false? What if the way you view the end times does not happen the way you preceived it through conspiracy theories? People speculate that there will be a NWO, but what if it doesn&#39;t happen exactly like that? What if it is just another blind that Satan used to capture more people?[/b]

Hi Shib

I love Jesus, and all that he taught us, and all that he did for us, and the greatest act of love imaginable. Please don&#39;t imagine that we are not excited about Jehovah&#39;s day of judgement rapidly approaching.

One thing you don&#39;t seem to grasp yet is that everything that has been happening since that famous day at the Tower of Babel has been thought out, scripted, and brought to fruition by evil men. But it&#39;s Jehovah who ultimately decides what to allow and not to allow, to suit his purpose. On that note, all three world wars were scripted and the first two implemented, achieving all the desired results to set the stage for the Grand Finale, World War III. The actors are in place, so are all the "extras", and the props, and most importantly, the script. And lo and behold, it all fits right into Jehovah&#39;s plan, perfectly.

This scripted information is constantly confirmed by world events, and once we know the script, it&#39;s like watching a movie after you have read the book. Of course we must be wary of disinformation, that&#39;s why Jehovah showed us in the Bible that all inspired expressions should be thoroughly scrutinized before believing them, and even at that, we should never put our "trust" in men&#39;s plans.

Almost everything is in place for the curtain to go up and the show to begin. The people who are going to be fooled are the ones who have allowed themselves to be brainwashed by all the preparatory propaganda. From "ET" to "Star Wars" to "Armageddon" to "Perfect Storm", their idea is to bombard mankind with one disaster after another in rapid succession, to foment panic, and fear.

I am choosing to read the script, being that Jehovah has made it available.

Lou

[Shibboleth]

Hi Shib

I love Jesus, and all that he taught us, and all that he did for us, and the greatest act of love imaginable. Please don&#39;t imagine that we are not excited about Jehovah&#39;s day of judgement rapidly approaching.

One thing you don&#39;t seem to grasp yet is that everything that has been happening since that famous day at the Tower of Babel has been thought out, scripted, and brought to fruition by evil men. But it&#39;s Jehovah who ultimately decides what to allow and not to allow, to suit his purpose. On that note, all three world wars were scripted and the first two implemented, achieving all the desired results to set the stage for the Grand Finale, World War III. The actors are in place, so are all the "extras", and the props, and most importantly, the script. And lo and behold, it all fits right into Jehovah&#39;s plan, perfectly.[/b]

Well I do grasp it. But I choose not to let it consume me. I watch the world very carefully, but I go by the signals Jesus taught us to look for. then I examine myself and though I am very unworthy of any special treatment from Jehovah, I do realize He exists and He will make me right if He sees fit. I just honestly can&#39;t go through life living in fear anymore.


The people who are going to be fooled are the ones who have allowed themselves to be brainwashed by all the preparatory propaganda. From "ET" to "Star Wars" to "Armageddon" to "Perfect Storm", their idea is to bombard mankind with one disaster after another in rapid succession, to foment panic, and fear.

I am choosing to read the script, being that Jehovah has made it available.

Lou[/b]

Well I hardly think that ET, Star Wars and The Perfect Storm (which is about a real event that actually happened) have to do with blinding people to the world. The films you named are steeped in fantasy except the Perfect Storm. So I don&#39;t understand what type of propaganda these movies hold. I guess some people live in a fantasy world and it clouds their thinking abilities, but that could be said about any form of entertainment.

[Jeshurun]

Films like "ET" and "Star Wars" have admittedly been used by them (Spielberg is one of the "elite", by the way) to brainwash kids into accepting the "alien" nonsense that they will release a part of this upcoming fiasco. And the same "force" they were taught about is the one that Ted Bundy admittedly drove him to do what he did. It&#39;s all directly tied into the occult, and this diverts kids away from "the ten commandments" that previous generations were brought up on.



Amazingly, the film "JFK" was an admission of guilt by them, which they belligerently put out on the market as a "beta test" just to see what anyone would dare do about it, which of course, is nothing.

[Shibboleth]

Films like "ET" and "Star Wars" have admittedly been used by them (Spielberg is one of the "elite", by the way) to brainwash kids into accepting the "alien" nonsense that they will release a part of this upcoming fiasco. And the same "force" they were taught about is the one that Ted Bundy admittedly drove him to do what he did. It&#39;s all directly tied into the occult, and this diverts kids away from "the ten commandments" that previous generations were brought up on.



Amazingly, the film "JFK" was an admission of guilt by them, which they belligerently put out on the market as a "beta test" just to see what anyone would dare do about it, which of course, is nothing.[/b]

See man it&#39;s comments like this that make me think you are nuts. If people can&#39;t discern between fantasy and reality then they should be commited. I loved Star Wars and ET, but yet I can discern between fantasy and reality. None of that crap is real and anyone who believes this stuff to be true needs help. George Lucas used everday events and fantastical religious ideas to come up with a story. He made the movies for entertainment purposes not to brainwash people. And why even bring up The Perfect Storm? What did that movie have to do with anything that is propaganda? That bewilders me. 4 or 5 fishermen in a boat get caught in a multitude of storms converging at once. How is that propaganda when the story is pretty much true? You got some &#39;splainin to do on that one :icon_rolleyes:

I agree with JFK to some extent. I believe there was a huge coverup.

[Jeshurun]

[See man it&#39;s comments like this that make me think you are nuts. If people can&#39;t discern between fantasy and reality then they should be commited. I loved Star Wars and ET, but yet I can discern between fantasy and reality. None of that crap is real and anyone who believes this stuff to be true needs help. George Lucas used everday events and fantastical religious ideas to come up with a story. He made the movies for entertainment purposes not to brainwash people. And why even bring up The Perfect Storm? What did that movie have to do with anything that is propaganda? That bewilders me. 4 or 5 fishermen in a boat get caught in a multitude of storms converging at once. How is that propaganda when the story is pretty much true? You got some &#39;splainin to do on that one :icon_rolleyes:

I agree with JFK to some extent. I believe there was a huge coverup.[/b]

Shib, you&#39;re an adult with extensive Bible training. These are little kids I&#39;m talking about, whose little minds are like sponges, and their brains are being manipulated at a very young age while they are still developing and the most vulnerable. Yes, the manipulation seems subtle on the surface, but it&#39;s the overall picture that completes the brainwashing, combined with what these little kids are being taught in school these days, which is a completely different philosophy from the somewhat Godly principles we were taught in school, which in turn, is also radically different from what was being taught during the generations before us. It has been a gradual changeover to a philosophy that will play right into their hands when they unleash the barrage.

"Perfect Storm" may be very well based on scientific fact, I just used it as an example of how they plant the ideas of cataclysmic catastrophe in people&#39;s minds so as to having them react with the desired results when the real thing happens. How many of these films talk about what role God plays in any of these things, aside from suggesting that he is ultimately at fault?

[Shibboleth]

Yes Jesh, I am an adult and I have my thinking capabilities (somewhat) intact.

But seriously I was a kid when Star Wars came out. I was a kid when ET came out and I grew up fine. No real serious side effects. Entertainment is exactly that... entertainment. I never felt I could tap into some mystic force and lift objects like stones and spaceships in the air. I never felt like I could wield a sword made of light and chop people in half. I never lost the grip of reality and rode my bike down the street following recees pieces to find that little lost alien.

Now if you had said TV shows like 24 or Jericho that use scary things to make people hate or fear things they do not know. Then you would have been correct about the propaganda issue. There was a movie in 1984 that was called "The Day After." It was a movie based on a nuclear holocaust in the U.S. That was a scare tatic used to make people fear a nuclear war.

You are right to some extent that people are affected by what they see on TV. Some people can&#39;t discern between reality and fantasy. Some parents just leave it to the TV to teach their kids and that is wrong. There have been instances around the world where children saw Saddam hang on tv and then went and hung themselves because they saw it on tv. Kids have also tried to emmulate Superman and many broke arms and legs cause they thought they could fly.

There are kids today that play video games all day and night. Most of these games are very violent. There have been studies that show that it can and does affect their growing minds. Many in the game industry are in denial that their games are violent enough to make kids do the things they see in the games.

The entertainment industry is just one of Satan&#39;s tools. He wants people to live in a fantasy world.

Whether the entertainment industry is fueled by the illuminati or some secret organization is up for debate.

Regards,

Shibboleth

[Sketch]

There was a movie in 1984 that was called "The Day After." It was a movie based on a nuclear holocaust in the U.S. That was a scare tatic used to make people fear a nuclear war.[/b]

"The Day After" was a GREAT movie... Steve Guttenburg and John Lithgow... to this day it is THE MOST depressing movie I&#39;ve seen... and it DOES make you scared of nukes... scared ME anyway... I&#39;d rather be at ground zero than survive that mess like that... ground zero with a coke and a smile...

If you want to see a movie that moves you... that evokes emotion... thats the movie...

[Nambo]

<div class='quotemain'>There was a movie in 1984 that was called "The Day After." It was a movie based on a nuclear holocaust in the U.S. That was a scare tatic used to make people fear a nuclear war.[/b]

"The Day After" was a GREAT movie... Steve Guttenburg and John Lithgow... to this day it is THE MOST depressing movie I&#39;ve seen... and it DOES make you scared of nukes... scared ME anyway... I&#39;d rather be at ground zero than survive that mess like that... ground zero with a coke and a smile...

If you want to see a movie that moves you... that evokes emotion... thats the movie...
[/b][/quote]

Back in the 1960s in merry old England, they used to show us a Nucleur Holocaust film in school, get em whilst the&#39;re young eh!
Very frightening, had some good tips on how to survive though envolving removing doors and leaning them against the wall.

As for emotive films, the most emotional Ive seem so fat is "Dancer in the dark" with the lead played by Buork or whatever her name is.
I have to stop now cause just thinking about it makes me cry.

[Jeshurun]

<a href="http://kurtnimmo.com/?p=952" target="_blank">
</a>

Abdullah Azzam and the Omissions of Neocon Historians

Monday August 13th 2007, 12:55 pm
In an "editorial" published in the Boston Herald, neocon propagandist—and jackleg historian—Jonah Goldberg, gives us a running history lesson on "al-Qaeda," specifically its purported ideological founder, Sheikh Abdullah Azzam. According to Goldberg, the late Azzam was "one of the founders of the jihadist movement that became al-Qaeda." Indeed, this is true, although Mr. Goldberg, of course, does not bother to tell us the rest of the story, as Paul Harvey might have it.

Sheikh Abdullah Yusuf Azzam ran Maktab Khadamat al-Mujahidin al-Arab, the recruiting arm of the CIA-ISI operation against the Soviets in Afghanistan, responsible for organizing 35,000 Muslim radicals from 43 Islamic countries in the Middle East, North and East Africa, Central Asia and the Far East, as veteran Pakistani journalist Ahmed Rashid has noted. "Even conventional sources regard Maktab al-Khadamat (MAK) as a CIA and ISI front organization. Moreover, MAK served as the offices of the World Muslim League and the Muslim Brotherhood in the northern Pakistan city of Peshawar," I wrote in January, 2006. As I have explained elsewhere, Azzam&#39;s connection to the Muslim Brotherhood is significant:

<blockquote>Azzam&#39;s connection to the Muslim Brotherhood is a significant factor, considering the Muslim organization was long ago penetrated and made to jump through hoops for the sake of MI6 and later the CIA. "According to CIA agent Miles Copeland, the Americans began looking for a Muslim Billy Graham around 1955," writes the Palestinian-born journalist and author Said K. Aburish. "When finding or creating a Muslim Billy Graham proved elusive, the CIA began to cooperate with the Muslim Brotherhood, the Muslim mass organization founded in Egypt but with followers throughout the Arab Middle East." In 1957, the CIA and MI6 collaborated to use the Muslim Brotherhood in an effort to destabilize Syria and assassinate its nationalist leaders (see Jean Shaoul, CIA-MI6 planned to assassinate Syrian leaders in 1957), a plan following the successful CIA-instigated overthrow of the popular and democratically elected Iranian leader Mohammed Mossadegh by a few years.

</blockquote> Azzam was simply one of a number of CIA-ISI operatives and patsies:

<blockquote>As is often the case with useful but ultimately disposable Muslim fanatics, Sheikh Abdullah Azzam was assassinated on November 24, 1989 and Osama bin Laden took his place. Indeed… "al-Qaeda" may be considered an outgrowth of MAK—or more precisely, an heir apparent as engineered by the CIA, ISI, and Saudi intelligence. MAK had served its purpose as a recruiter and proselytizer of Wahhabi fanaticism in Afghanistan and after the Soviets were ejected the services of Azzam were no longer required (and he was likely considered a danger to the next phase—the spawning and unleashing of "al-Qaeda" in the Balkans and Chechnya).

</blockquote> "MAK was a front for Pakistan&#39;s CIA, the Inter-Service Intelligence Directorate. The ISI was the first recipient of the vast bulk of CIA and Saudi Arabian covert assistance for the Afghan contras. Bin Laden was one of three people who ran MAK. In 1989, he took overall charge of MAK," writes Norm Dixon, an indisputable fact admitted by MSBNC in August, 1998, before everything changed, including history as recited by neocons. Hekmatyar, closely associated with bin Laden and Azzam, according to Asia Times, was "an ISI stooge and creation" (see above link).

Lisa Beyer, writing for Time Magazine as the pall of toxic fumes lingered over Ground Zero in New York, tells us: "At the King Abdel Aziz University in Jidda, bin Laden, according to associates, was greatly influenced by one of his teachers, Abdullah Azzam, a Palestinian who was a major figure in the Muslim Brotherhood, a group that has played a large role in the resurgence of Islamic religiosity. Bin Laden, who like most Saudis is a member of the puritanical Wahhabi sect of Sunni Islam, had been pious from childhood, but his encounter with Azzam seemed to deepen his faith. What&#39;s more, through Azzam he became steeped not in the then popular ideology of pan-Arabism, which stresses the unity of all Arabs, but in a more ambitious pan-Islamicism, which reaches out to all the world&#39;s 1 billion Muslims."

Beyer, of course, does not tell us that it was British intelligence and the CIA and their corrupt clients in the Middle East behind the rise of "pan-Islamicism" at the expense of Arab nationalism. "The CIA was following the example of British Intelligence and sought to use Islam to further its goals," explains Peter Goodgame (The Globalists and the Islamists: Fomenting the "Clash of Civilizations" for a New World Order). "They wanted to find a charismatic religious leader that they could promote and control and they began to cooperate with groups such as the Muslim Brotherhood. With the rise of Nasser the Brotherhood was also courted more seriously by the pro-Western Arab regimes of Saudi Arabia and Jordan. They needed all the popular support that they could muster against the rise of Nasser-inspired Arab nationalism to keep their regimes intact."

For Jonah Goldberg and the neocons, however, the instrumental beginnings of the Muslim Brotherhood, MAK, and "al-Qaeda," a name gleaned from an Afghan mujahideen database, are not worthy of mention, as some people would get the idea that "Islamic terrorism"—hardly a concern before the Brits, Americans, and Israelis took up interest for the sake of their own agendas—is something other than what the corporate media tells us it is.



---Source: Kurtnimmo.com