144,000...part Of The Ransom?

[SlaveForJah]

Hey all,

I keep running across this peculiar teaching. So...what's up with the Bible Student teaching that the 144,000 share in the Ransom? Was this a teaching of the Pastor? If so, when did this teaching get jettisoned from JW theology? What are everyone's thoughts on this doctrine and what scriptural support would you use?


Agape

SlaveForJah

[Gabriel]

Hey all,

I keep running across this peculiar teaching. So...what's up with the Bible Student teaching that the 144,000 share in the Ransom? Was this a teaching of the Pastor? If so, when did this teaching get jettisoned from JW theology? What are everyone's thoughts on this doctrine and what scriptural support would you use?


Agape

SlaveForJah[/b]

I wasnt aware that the B. Students taught this doctrine. How in the world do they figure that the 144k share in the ransom? sounds blasphemous to me.

[Juan23]

Hey all,

I keep running across this peculiar teaching. So...what's up with the Bible Student teaching that the 144,000 share in the Ransom? Was this a teaching of the Pastor? If so, when did this teaching get jettisoned from JW theology? What are everyone's thoughts on this doctrine and what scriptural support would you use?[/b]

Not really sure what you asking.

The 144k share in the benefit of the ransom. They are not part of the ransom.

See following quotes from the WT and the bible.

<div align="center">WHAT IS THE RANSOM?</div>
³ Put simply, the ransom is Jehovah’s means to deliver, or save, humankind from sin and death. (Ephesians 1:7) To grasp the meaning of this Bible teaching, we need to think back to what happened in the garden of Eden. Only if we understand what Adam lost when he sinned can we appreciate why the ransom is such a valuable gift to us.





“By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one, yes, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his undeserved kindness.”—Eph. 1:7, NW.

[SlaveForJah]

<div class='quotemain'>Hey all,

I keep running across this peculiar teaching. So...what&#39;s up with the Bible Student teaching that the 144,000 share in the Ransom? Was this a teaching of the Pastor? If so, when did this teaching get jettisoned from JW theology? What are everyone&#39;s thoughts on this doctrine and what scriptural support would you use?[/b]

Not really sure what you asking.

The 144k share in the benefit of the ransom. They are not part of the ransom.

See following quotes from the WT and the bible.

<div align="center">WHAT IS THE RANSOM?</div>
³ Put simply, the ransom is Jehovah&#39;s means to deliver, or save, humankind from sin and death. (Ephesians 1:7) To grasp the meaning of this Bible teaching, we need to think back to what happened in the garden of Eden. Only if we understand what Adam lost when he sinned can we appreciate why the ransom is such a valuable gift to us.





"By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one, yes, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his undeserved kindness."—Eph. 1:7, NW.




[/b][/quote]


Hello 123,

Sorry if my question was not clear enough. The teaching to which I am referring is this: the 144,000 are sharers, not in the benefits of the Ransom only, but in paying the price of the Ransom. Below are a few quotes from another site that highlight this belief of the Bible Students.


GOD is the great architect of the Universe. Planned our salvation before he put man on earth.

GOD will overlook the sins of the sinners, because Justice is satisfied by the ransom price and the sin offering of the 144,000. Character traits will be handicap enough in Christ&#39;s Kngdom.[/b]

Here&#39;s another:


Jesus was the corresponding price that Justice demanded for Adam&#39;s release. The children in the loins of Jesus were counter for the children of Adam, but a sin offering to Justice is to be made to compensate for the partly willful sins of the people of Adam. It will be made of the life rights of the Church, the 144,000. Jesus paid the "ransom price" but the 144,000 helps to pay the "sin offering".[/b]

Perhaps someone could comment on this teaching, and whether or not it is a teaching that was espoused by the Pastor or if it is a later Bible Student teaching. Also, does anyone know when the JWs discarded this teaching, or if it even has been discarded?


Similarly, here is a teaching on the 144,000 sharing in the role of Mediator, not benefitting from Christ&#39;s Mediation, but rather being that Mediator themselves.


"God has appointed a day (a period of time, during the Mediatorial reign) in which He (by means of his Church) will judge (krino, to discern by means of trial, a probationary period) the world (mankind) in righteousness (in equity, in fairness, justly, ensuring that all are first brought to an accurate knowledge of the truth in regards to his standards, his requirements in order to obtain life everlasting, this knowledge and instruction in righteousness will come) by the Man (the Christ, the Mediator, Head and Body) whom he has ordained…" (Acts 17:31)

Let us consider the following; first of all we know from the scriptures that there is to be a Mediator in place prior to the judgment of the world (i.e. individuals) one who will stand between God and men reconciling them one to another (1 Tim 2:5). This reconciliation comes by means of a covenant (an agreement) made between the two parties. This covenant we understand to be referred to as the New Covenant, which the Lord will establish with Israel (typifying the world, remember the Jewish people were only a typical people), it is styled a "new" covenant because it will be new, the first of which God has ever made with the world as a whole. Now this Covenant cannot ratified between the two parties until first the Mediator is present, for it is the sole purpose of the mediator to act as a go-between, to interpose between these two parties.

When our Lord at his first advent gave himself as the ransom price for the world he "the Man Christ Jesus" in the truest sense became that Mediator, however it has always been the Father&#39;s intention that the body of Christ would be composed of many members, not just one (1 Cor 12:12), that therefore the Mediator would likewise be composed of many members, those called, chosen and found faithful even until death. Since the Church is not yet complete therefore the Mediator is not yet complete.

The object of Christ&#39; death was so that he might seal (make operative) the New Covenant, by his blood, "For this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for the remission of sins" (Matt 26:28) "for without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins" (Heb 9:22) Now all who have consecrated their all to the Lord to follow in the Master&#39;s footsteps have likewise entered into a separate and distinct covenant, "a covenant by sacrifice" (Psa 50:5), that they too might share in the Lord&#39;s sufferings, his afflictions, becoming joint sacrifices with their Lord (Col 1:24) "The cup of blessings which we bless, is it not the communion (our joint participation) in the blood of Christ?" (1 Cor 10:16) Therefore we conclude that not until the whole sacrifice is completed will the blood which seals the New Covenant then be complete.[/b]

I think this ties in with the teaching that the 144,000 are a portion of the Ransom. Any help or thoughts would be appreciated.



Agape

SlaveForJah

[stayawake]

quote Juan23
“By means of HIM we have the release by ransom through the blood of that ONE, yes, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his undeserved kindness.â€�—Eph. 1:7, NW.

The above is your answer.
The scales of justice would have to be a perfect life for a perfect life, thats why the LAW (Mosaic) was a tutor that lead the jews to the promised seed. Which was Jesus.New King James Version (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=50) Gal 3:16
Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,� as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,�who is Christ.

The Ransom Doctrine is the main doctrine of the Bible. On this ONE ransom rest two hopes

Russell ended a frindship over this very Issue , with a fellow named Baurber.
With out Christ ransom there would be nothing.

Certainly the 144,000 benifit from Christ ransom, but they certainly are not a part of the ransom price.
They themselves must run the race to the finish to obtain the crown.
The number 144,000 is predestined , not the individuals,
the number did not come into Jahs purpose until after Adam sinned.

These are my thoughts
love stayawake

[knowledge.seeker]

Hbr 9:15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance-now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. (NIV)

Hbr 9:15 ...to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. (NIV)

-----------
Jesus is the one and only mediator. His propitiatory sacrifice was THE ransom, and there is plethora of bible texts that support this. In fact, the letter of Paul to the Hebrews is an exegesis of this truth.

With regards to the 144k, these are partakers, but that in itself does not constitute them "mediators", for there is only one mediator, Christ Jesus.

Still, I can see how the bible students can suppose that the members of the 144k class are mediators. Recall that the "new covenant" is between Jesus and said class. So, in essence, Jesus and the 144k become one... vis a vis, a bride and her groom-- but to think of them as mediators is a stretch, nonetheless.


KS.

[todd53]

as already is stated Jesus is the ransom it says in Rev 5: 9 that the 144000 were bought and paul confirmed this in 1 cor 7:23

also should be noted that the 144000 were while on earth imperfect and the Ransom what was needed to equal adams life had to be perfect so only Jesus life would have done

[Deborah]

as already is stated Jesus is the ransom it says in Rev 5: 9 that the 144000 were bought and paul confirmed this in 1 cor 7:23

also should be noted that the 144000 were while on earth imperfect and the Ransom what was needed to equal adams life had to be perfect so only Jesus life would have done

[/b]

Welcome Todd53!

Nice to see you jump in!

Your Christian Sister, Deborah

[PRAYSER]

Hey all,

I keep running across this peculiar teaching. So...what&#39;s up with the Bible Student teaching that the 144,000 share in the Ransom? Was this a teaching of the Pastor? If so, when did this teaching get jettisoned from JW theology? What are everyone&#39;s thoughts on this doctrine and what scriptural support would you use?


Agape

SlaveForJah[/b]


Here is a summary of CT RUSSELL&#39;S ransom doctrine and it is/was a false doctrine. I do not know how long CT RUSSELL taught this doctrine or if he changed it at all, or if [any of] the BIBLE STUDENTS currently teach this doctrine. The WATCHTOWER SOCIETY / JEHOVAH&#39;S WITNESSES no longer teach this doctrine.



In 1877, Barbour wrote and published the book, Three Worlds and The Harvest of This World (Also called, Three Worlds: Or Plan of Redemption). It listed C.T. Russell as the co-publisher. Barbour though was the sole writer of the book. 12 In it, Barbour set forth his Adventist views on Millennial theology and chronology.

On theology, he taught in the book, as Russell would later in The Watch Tower, that the Church and Jesus together constituted The Christ (pp. 5-6). Jesus and His bride, the Church, constituted the "Second Adam and Eve" (p. 11). The church will become Gods, in fact, they would <span style="color:#ff0000">"become part of the Godhead" (p. 13). This Christ or God class would redeem humanity during the "probationary" period of the Millennium (p. 10) and thus become the "spiritual mother" of the rest of mankind (p. 16). These 144,000 "spiritual beings" would "materialize" as men on earth at will during their Millennial reign or remain invisible while on earth, thereby keeping tabs on the spiritual development of mankind during this period (pp. 43 47). Mankind&#39;s worship would in part consist of serving and obeying these "rulers" or "instructors" in the Millennium (p. 68).

</span>HERBERT W ARMSTONG&#39;s WORLDWIDE CHURCH OF GOD taught a similar "become part of the Godhead" doctrine, before the successors of HW ARMSTRONG embraced Trinitarian Protestantism, the WORLDWIDE CHURCH OF GOD was a ANGLO-ISRAELITIST SABBATARIAN ADVENTIST CHURCH
with some doctrinal similarities with CT Russell and with Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses.

The doctrines held in common are/were MOSTLY false doctrines.

Respectfully
DJABRIL

[SlaveForJah]

Thank you Djabril,

It does seem to me that this is still a teaching of the modern day Bible Students movement. Thanks for the quote.

As far as the Worldwide Church of God, I too, see many similarities in the teachings of the WCG and the BS/JW movements. I have heard from various sources that Armstrong was at one time involved with the Bible Students to one degree or another. Do you have any information as to whether or not this is a correct statement?


Agape

SlaveForJah

[PRAYSER]

Thank you Djabril,

It does seem to me that this is still a teaching of the modern day Bible Students movement. Thanks for the quote.

As far as the Worldwide Church of God, I too, see many similarities in the teachings of the WCG and the BS/JW movements. I have heard from various sources that Armstrong was at one time involved with the Bible Students to one degree or another. Do you have any information as to whether or not this is a correct statement?

Agape

SlaveForJah[/b]

The present day [post HW Armstong] WorldWide Church of God is an orthodox trinitarian church. The orthodox trinity being the Greek and Latin churches formulation of the trinity doctrine.

Herber W Armstrong&#39;s Radio Church of God later named the WordWide Church of God had several teachings similar to CT RUSSELL and the BIBLE STUDENTS not necessarily because of any direct association but because CT RUSSELL and Herbert W Armstrong took some of their doctrines from the same churches and theologians.

Herbert W Armstrong combined Adventist, Anglo-Israelite, Judaized Sabbaterian, and Mormon Theology in the development of his own theology.

Like CT RUSSELL and many others Herbert W Armstrong falsely claimed that the truth could be learned only from him.

CT RUSSELL publicly claimed to be "the LORD&#39;S mouthpiece" and privately claimed to be the faithful steward.

Herbert W Armstrong claimed to be the final APOSTLE.

CT RUSSELL and Herbert W Armstrong both had multi-person GODHEAD doctrines, while rejecting trinitarianism.

Herbert W Armstrong&#39;s teaching is that GOD, whom he prefered to call the ETERNAL, is not an individual but a family currently composed of the Father and Jesus but to eventually to include all glorified saints [this view is somewhat similar to the Mormon GODHEAD doctrine].

Herbert W Armstrong also claimed that Jesus was executed on a stake not a cross, similar to Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses.
CT RUSSELL taught and the BIBLE STUDENTS teach that Jesus died on a cross.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All ancient descriptions of the object on which Jesus was executed from Christian, Jewish, Greek and Roman sources describe that object as a stake [stauros] with a crossbeam [stauros], in other words a cross.
Both the stake and the crossbeam are called stauros, which means timber or wood.
Carrying one stauros to the place of ones own execution refers to carrying the crossbeam, and not to the iconized image of Jesus dragging an entire cross or a stake through the streets of Jerusalem to Calvery.
Ancient sources describe in detail how the Romans carried these kinds of executions.

Before anyone goes off on the tangent that PRAYSER CLAIMS that Jesus died on a cross, please note that I am refering to historical documents that can be researched by anyone which wishes to see for themselves.

The Watch Tower Society ignores all of the ancient testimony from Christian, Jewish, Greek and Roman sources and focuses on the use of crosses
in pagan worship, which has nothing to do with Roman methods of executions. The emperor Constantine who outlawed this method of execution obviously knew which method of execution he was banning.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Herbert W Armstrong taugh that Christians must observe the commandments of the torah, the Jewish festivals and the dietary laws.

He taught that interracial marriage was a sin.

Herbert W Armstrong like CT RUSSELL was pro-ZIONIST and preached that the establishment of the present day was in fulfillment of end-time prophecy.

Anglo-Israelite theology claims that the Jews are the tribes of Judah and Benjamin and the Western Europeans are the 10 so-called lost tribes of Israel, with the Britian and the USA being the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh.

Joseph Smith was influenced by Anglo-Israelite theology in his development of Mormon theology.

Herbert W Armstrong also made various end-time predictions, [including end coming in 1975], which all failed to come true.

I studied Adventist and Herbert W Armstrong&#39;s theology from 1964 until 1971 [I was baptized as a Witness in 1971, at age 17] but I have found no evidence of any direct association with Herbert W Armstrong and the BIBLE STUDENTS. Herbert W Armstrong was certainly aware of the BIBLE STUDENTS and the Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses and after JF RUTHERFORD went off the air Herbert W Armstrong became the most prominent radio evangelist in the USA.

Respectfully

DJABRIL