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DoubtingThomas
02-20-2007, 12:51 AM
Here is a copy of the controversial WT study article which has many of us disturbed. I am sorry I was a little late in posting this weeks study article. My OCR scanning software is ancient, and I did not have time to proof-read the article, so I hope there are no scanning mistakes.

Paragraph 11 is the most disturbing to me: That the GB believe they are being communicated with by the dead. Wouldn't Jehovah use His Holy Spirit (or at least His Son) to communicate divine messages to his servants today? The fact that I am being fed spiritual food from those who believe they are being communicated with by the dead disturbs me greatly.

It seems that we are becoming more cult-like every day with study articles like this, and now magazines that are secret and not available for the public to see. It gives me the creeps.


“THE FIRST RESURRECTION” —NOW UNDER WAY!
“Those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.”—1 THESSALONIANS 4:16.



1 The living are conscious that they will die.” Ever since Adam sinned, that has been true. Throughout history, everyone born has known that he would eventually die, and many have wondered: ‘What comes next? What is the condition of the dead?’ The Bible answers: “As for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.”—Ecclesiastes 9:5.

2 Is there any hope, then, for those who have died? Yes. In fact, there must be if God’s original purpose for mankind is to be fulfilled. Over the centuries, loyal servants of God have exercised faith in Jehovah’s promise about a Seed who would destroy Satan and undo the harm he did. (Genesis 3:15) Most have died. If they are to see the fulfillment of that promise and of others that Jehovah has made, they need to be raised from the dead. (Hebrews 11:13) Is such a thing possible? Yes, it is. The apostle Paul said: “There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” (Acts 24:15) Paul once resurrected a young man named Eutychus, who had fallen from a third-floor window and was “picked up dead.” This is the last of nine resurrections recorded in the Bible. —Acts 20:7-12.*

3 Those nine resurrections provide a basis for faith in Paul’s statement. They strengthen our confidence in Jesus’ assurance: “The hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear [Jesus’] voice and come out.” (John 5:28,29) What heartwarming words! And how comforting for the millions whose loved ones have fallen asleep in death!

4 The majority of those who are resurrected will come back to an earth made peaceful under God’s Kingdom. (Psalm 37:10, 11, 29; Isaiah 11:6-9; 35:5, 6; 65:21-23) However, other resurrections were to take place before that happens. First, Jesus Christ had to be resurrected to present the value of his sacrifice to God in our behalf. Jesus died and was resurrected in 33 C.E.

5 Next, anointed members of “the Israel of God” must join the Lord Jesus Christ in heavenly glory, where they will “always be with the Lord.” (Galatians 6:16; 1 Thessalonians 4:17) That event is called “the earlier resurrection” or “the first resurrection.” (Philippians 3:10, 11; Revelation 20:6) When that resurrection is completed, the time will be at hand for millions to be resurrected back to the earth with the prospect of gaining everlasting life in Paradise. Hence, whether our hope is heavenly or earthly, we have a keen interest in “the first resurrection.” What kind of resurrection is it? When does it occur?


“With What Sort of Body?”

6 In his first letter to the Corinthians, Paul raises a question about the first resurrection:
“How are the dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?” He then answers the question: “What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies . . . but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him. The glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort.”—l Corinthians 15:35-40.
7 Paul’s words show that Christians anointed with holy spirit must die before they can receive their heavenly reward. At their death, their earthly body returns to the dust. (Genesis 3:19) At God’s appointed time, they are resurrected with a body of a kind suitable for life in the heavens. (1 John 3:2) God also grants them immortality. That is not something they possess from birth, as if a so-called immortal soul were breathed into them. “This which is mortal must put on immortality” says Paul. Immortality is a gift from God, “put on” by those who share in the first resurrection.—1 Corinthians 15:50, 53; Genesis 2:7; 2 Corinthians 5:1, 2, 8.
8 Only 144,000 share in the first resurrection. Jehovah began selecting them at Pentecost 33 C.E., shortly after he resurrected Jesus. All of them have “[Jesus’] name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.” (Revelation 14:1, 3) Hence, they are not selected from many different religions. All are Christians, and all proudly bear the name of the Father—Jehovah. When they are resurrected, they receive an assignment of work in the heaven. The prospect of serving God in such a direct iiay is simply thrilling to them.


Now Under Way?

9 When does the first resurrection occur? There is strong evidence that it is now under way. For example, compare two chapters of Revelation. First, look at Revelation chapter 12. There we read that the newly enthroned Jesus Christ, along with his holy angels, wages war against Satan and his demons. (Revelation 12:7-9) As this journal has often shown, that battle began in 1914.* Notice, though, that none of Christ’s anointed followers are said to be with Jesus in that heavenly war. Now look at chapter 17 of Revelation. We read there that after the destruction of “Babylon the Great,” the Lamb will conquer the nations. Then it adds: “Also, those called and chosen and faithful in him will do so.” (Revelation 17:5, 14) “Called and chosen and faithful” ones must already have been resurrected if they are to be with Jesus for the final defeat of Satan’s world. Reasonably, then, anointed ones who die before Armageddon are resurrected sometime between 1914 and Armageddon.
10 Can we say more precisely when the first resurrection begins? An interesting clue is found at rev. 7:9-15, where the apostle John describes his vision of a great crowd, which no man was able to number.” The identity of that great crowd is revealed to John by one of the 24 elders, and these elders represent the 144, 000 joint heirs with Christ in their heavenly glory.

11 What, then, can we deduce from the fact that one of the 24 elders identifies the great crowd to John? It seems that resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today. Why is that important? Because the correct identity of the great crowd was revealed to God’s anointed servants on earth in 1935. If one of the 24 elders was used to convey that important truth, he would have had to be resurrected to heaven by 1935 at the latest. That would indicate that the first resurrection began sometime between 1914 and 1935. Can we be more precise?

12 At this point, it may be helpful to consider what might be viewed as a Bible parallel. Jesus Christ was anointed as the future King of God’s Kingdom in the fall of 29 C.E. Three and a half years later, in the spring of 33 C.E., he was resurrected as a mighty spirit person. Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914, the resurrection of his faithful anointed followers began three and a half years later, in the spring of 1918? That is an interesting possibility. Although this cannot be directly confirmed in the Bible, it is not out of harmony with other scriptures that indicate that the first resurrection got under way soon after Christ’s presence began.
13 For example, Paul wrote: “We the living who survive to the presence of the Lord [not, to the end of his presence] shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) Therefore, anointed Christians who died before Christ’s presence were raised to heavenly life ahead of those who were still alive during Christ’s presence. This means that the first resurrection must have begun early in Christ’s presence, and it continues “during his presence.” (1 Corinthians 15:23) Rather than occurring all at once, the first resurrection takes place over a period of time.


“A White Robe Was Given to Each of Them”

14 Consider, too, the evidence contained in Revelation chapter 6. There Jesus is seen riding forth as a conquering King. (Revelation 6:2) The nations are embroiled in warfare of epic proportions. (Revelation 6:4) There is widespread famine. (Revelation 6:5, 6) Deadly plagues ravage mankind. (Revelation 6:8) All these prophesied events clearly fit world conditions since 1914. But something else happens. Our attention is drawn to an altar of sacrifice. At its base are “the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have.” (Revelation 6:9) Since “the soul [or, life] of the flesh is in the blood,” what is really represented as being at the foot of the altar is the blood of faithful servants of Jesus who were slaughtered because of their bold and zealous witnessing.—Leviticus 17:11.

15 Like the blood of righteous Abel, the blood of these Christian martyrs is crying out for justice. (Genesis 4:10) “They cried with a loud voice, saying: ‘Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those ho dwell on the earth?’ “ What comes next? “A white robe was given to each of them; arid they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been.”—Revelation 6:10, 11.

16 Were these white robes handed out to pools of blood lying at the base of an altar? Of course not! The robes were given to the individuals whose blood was shed, as it were, on the altar. They sacrificed their lives in Jesus’ name and were now resurrected as spirits. How do we know that? Earlier in the book of Revelation, we read: “He that conquers will thus be arrayed in white outer garments; and I will by no means blot out his name from the book of life.” Recall, too, that the 24 elders were “dressed in white outer garments, and upon their heads [were] golden crowns.” (Revelation 3:5; 4:4) So after war, famine, and pestilence began to ravage the earth, members of the 144,000 who were dead, represented by the blood at the base of the altar, were raised to heavenly life and clothed in symbolic white robes.
17 Those newly resurrected ones must “rest.” They must wait patiently for God’s day of vengeance. Their “fellow slaves,” anointed Christians still on earth, have yet to prove their integrity under trial. When the time for divine judgment arrives, the “rest” will be over. (Revelation 7:3) At that time, those resurrected ones will share with the Lord Jesus Christ in bringing destruction upon the wicked, including those who shed the blood of innocent Christians.—2 Thessalonians 1: 7-10.


What It Means for Us

18 God’s Word does not disclose a precise date for the first resurrection, but it does reveal that it occurs over a period of time, during Christ’s presence. The first to be resurrected are anointed Christians who died before Christ’s presence began. As Christ’s presence progresses, anointed Christians who faithfully finish their earthly course are changed “in the twinkling of an eye” into powerful spirit creatures. (1 Corinthians 15:52) Will all the anointed receive their heavenly reward before the war of Armageddon? We do not know. We do know, however, that in God’s due time, all the 144,000 will be found standing on the heavenly Mount Zion.

19 We also know that the majority of the 144,000 are already united with Christ. Only a relatively few remain on earth. What a powerful indication that the time for the execution of God’s judgment is rapidly approaching! Soon, Satan’s entire world system will be destroyed. Satan himself will be abyssed. Then, the general resurrection can begin, and faithful humans can, on the basis of Jesus’ ransom sacrifice, be raised to perfection similar to that lost by Adam. Jehovah’s prophecy recorded at Genesis 3:15 is being wonderfully fulfilled. What a grand privilege it is to be living in these times!



Can You Explain?
How do the following scriptures help us to discern the timing of “the first resurrection”?


• Revelation 12:7; 17:14
• Revelation 7:13, 14
• 1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
• Revelation 6:2, 9-11

Redpill
02-20-2007, 01:37 AM
Hi DT (and everyone else), thanks for posting the article. I've read it a few times.

It is disturbing how they claim to be in comminication with their deceased brothers. Just like Russell was supposedly still directing the work after his death.

Surprisingly, they seem to be lightening up on the 1918 resurrection doctrine:

"Could it, then, be reasoned that since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914, the resurrection of his faithful anointed followers began three and a half years later, in the spring of 1918? That is an interesting possibility. Although this cannot be directly confirmed in the Bible"

What I would like to know is just HOW they know that the raised anointed are communicating with them. Did the Ouija board say so? (joke)

eyes&ears
02-20-2007, 02:25 AM
Thank you DT for posting that Watchtower article. Very much appreciated.

It was so quiet in the KH yesterday, that as we were going over the paragraphs, I actually got goosebumps and chills from not only the comments but from the conductor repeating 1918, 1918, 1918, 1914, 1914.

Also, as has been expressed just the idea that it is suggested that we are getting information from these ones just gave me a very uncomfortable feeling as many have expressed already. This is very very eerie.

I thank Jehovah so much that he has opened our eyes and continues to direct us. I am thankful for all that I have learned these past several years. All I now know has taught me that I needed to spend more time in Jehovah's Word, and that I needed to continue to develop a deeper relationship with Jehovah.

I am also very thankful that I found this site.

HOLD ON TIGHT EVERYONE, I GUESS WE ARE GOING TO SEE MORE AND MORE THINGS THAT WILL DISTURB US NOT ONLY IN PUBLICATIONS BUT ALSO INSIDE THE ORG AS WELL AS LOCAL CONGREGATIONS. IT IS A GOOD THING WE ARE LEARNING TO STAND VERY FIRM, AND ARE DETERMINED TO STAY FOCUSED ON WHAT IS IMPORTANT, AND TO ALWAYS LOOK TO JEHOVAH FOR DIRECTION AS WE CARRY ON AND KEEP PRAYING FOR THE ENTIRE BROTHERHOOD.

Love out to everyone

E & E

Jeshurun
02-20-2007, 02:31 AM
I find it pathetic how "1914" is lately always followed by *.

I also think it must be very disheartening for the friends to have to constantly see the words "Could it be" or "possibly" or "there is strong evidence" or "interesting possibility" or "it seems that" or "this cannot be directly confirmed in the Bible".

Paragraph 18 sums it up: "We do not know".

Redpill
02-20-2007, 02:36 AM
So apparently, the 24 elders told the GB to print a study article with the message: "1918 is an interesting possibility. It's not directly confirmed by the Bible. We do not know."

Hmm... you'd think the combined communicative efforts of approx. 135,000 immortal spirit beings would be able to tell us a little more than that?

DoubtingThomas
02-20-2007, 02:39 AM
Re: Paragraph 18. Since Christ presence (parousia) has not begun yet, that means that none of Christ Brothers (the annointed) have been resurrected yet. So ... I wonder just who it is that the Governing Body are getting or have been getting thier communications and messages from? Gives me the creeps to think it may be Satan who is communicating thoughts and messages to the GB, which are then being dispensed as spiritual food to sheep like me.

eyes&ears
02-20-2007, 03:08 AM
I agree with you all.

It is disheartening. That is why it is a blessing that Jehovah has opened our eyes.

We have the opportunity now to ensure our suit of armor is cleaned up and ready. We have the time now to get prepared spiritually for what will confront us in the future, whatever that may be. We have the opportunity to turn our shock, pain, disgust, anger into tools of strength not only to help ourselves but to help others when the opportunities present themselves.

We are all at different places in our spiritual walk. Use what Jehovah is revealing to you/ us. REMEMBER TO ALWAYS STAY FOCUSED. We know who wants us to LOSE FOCUS .

We need to discuss and express ourselves, and I pray we can do this as long as the net is operable.

But no matter what happens, we don't want to lose focus on what is important.

I did that and I had to do a complete 360 because I was so outraged that I allowed my anger to control me as well as the behavior/influence of others.

May we never lose sight of the main issues. May we always remember what Jehovah has revealed to us, and May we always remember that Jehovah will always be there for us if we HOLD ON TIGHT.

OKEY DOKEY, that is enough of me for one night. It's just that I love you all so much and so many are having their eyes open. We have no idea how Jehovah will direct us with all this knowledge. So do not give up, tire out or leave. Now is not the time to leave. Now is the time to PAY ATTENTION TO HOW WE LISTEN, STAY AWAKE, STAY FOCUSED AND STAY IN JEHOVAH'S WORD.

LOVE OUT TO YOU ALL

E & E

PHILIPPIANS 4:13 For all things I have the strength by virtue of him who imparts power to me.

barry
02-20-2007, 09:19 AM
We had our bookstudy yesterday evening. The conductor started with saying what a wonderfull WT article we studied the day before.
One elder made a remark during the study, about something he never understood until recently. And he said, "during all the time I did not understand, I just trusted the GB and now recently I found out they were correct at that". So this left the thought of when you don't understand something, just trust them.

eyes&ears
02-20-2007, 11:25 AM
Hi Barry,

They say that quite often now don't they. They always said it, but now I notice in all meetings it is said over and over and over. I hope we are staying awake when hearing certain things over and over and over especially when they are contrary to what Jehovah is saying over and over and over.

I have noticed how it is suggested that we trust completely in the FDS/GB and wait for their direction, because that is the channel of communication that JEHOVAH is using to give us food at the proper time in our day.I would imagine by using Jehovah's name that makes it right. hmmmmmm

WEll (imo) sometimes we have to CHANGE THE CHANNEL, because we know that Jehovah/Jesus would not approve of us getting involved with what is playing on those channels hmmmmmmm. So we have to immediately switch channels or turn it off completely.

I will wait, but if the direction goes in direct opposition to what I know Jehovah says, then I have do do what Jehovah tells me and I will do what Jehovah says at ALL COSTS. But I will make absolutely sure it is Jehovah's voice that I am listening to and not someone CHANNELING HMMMMMMM. :icon_eek: :dontknow:

I will trust in Jehovah and not eat everything they put on the table, because Jehovah has shown me that it is not good to grab every type of food and swallow it before trying to chew it well. Some foods are not good to eat at all, they put a sour taste in our mouths, upset our digestive system, and may give us the spiritual runs. I want none of the above (sorry for being so blunt.)

HOLD ON TIGHT, KEEP ON THE WATCH. READ THE WORD DAILY

LOVE TO YOU ALL

E & E

Kenneth
02-20-2007, 11:38 AM
What, then, can we deduce from the fact that one of the 24 elders identifies the great crowd toJohn? It seems that resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today. Why is that important? Because the correct identity of the great crowd was revealed to God's anointed servants on earth in 1935.[/b]If this is the case then why has there been so much nonsense written since 1935.

Here an extract form the Proclaimers book


"Concerning Beth-Sarim, the book "Salvation," published in 1939, explains: "The Hebrew words 'Beth Sarim' mean 'House of the Princes'; and the purpose of acquiring that property and building the house was that there might be some tangible proof that there are those on earth today who fully believe God and Christ Jesus and in His kingdom, and who believe that the faithful men of old will soon be resurrected by the Lord, be back on earth, and take charge of the visible affairs of earth."

At the time, it was believed that faithful men of old times, such as Abraham, Joseph, and David, would be resurrected before the end of this system of things and would serve as "princes in all the earth," in fulfillment of Psalm 45:16. This view was adjusted in 1950, when further study of the Scriptures indicated that those earthly forefathers of Jesus Christ would be resurrected after Armageddon[/b]

Kenneth

barry
02-20-2007, 11:40 AM
Hi E&E,

Indeed they are more and more saying to have complete trust.
It's a pity. For example this elder is a friend of me. He is very intelligent and I would wish that persons like him can really see through it.

Hi Kenneth,

Good point.


Barry

eyes&ears
02-20-2007, 11:52 AM
Yeah Barry,

I know whatcha mean, perhaps he is aware and just being cautious. Keep him in prayer, one never knows right.

Have a great day

E & E

eyes&ears
02-20-2007, 11:55 AM
Hi Kenneth,

It's that doggone static interference with all those CHANNELS CHANNELING. :icon_rolleyes: . Sorry, I just could not help myself.

E & E

Shibboleth
02-20-2007, 12:24 PM
I was always under the impression that it was the angel in mid-heaven that guided the annointed and helped with the preaching work.

Now they are saying it is the 24 elders or one of the 24 elders. Is it their thinking that they are talking with Russell?

Kenneth
02-20-2007, 12:28 PM
E&E 'static interference' is an understatement as regards this. Can you imaging a brother being disfellowshipped because he didn't believe that "Faithful men of old will soon be resurrected by the Lord, be back on earth, and take charge of the visible affairs of earth." And that "building the house" would be a waste of time. What channels were they tuned into back there. I'm just amazed they admit to it.

Kenneth

eyes&ears
02-20-2007, 12:48 PM
I know Kenneth, isn't it obscene. Just awful.

We are so blessed Jehovah has opened our eyes aren't we.


Love to you and your family.

E & E

Martha
02-20-2007, 01:27 PM
What I would like to know is just HOW they know that the raised anointed are communicating with them.[/b]
Hmmm, my thoughts precisely.

Jeshurun
02-20-2007, 01:54 PM
I'm afraid that it's pretty clear to me where this is all going. I will no longer be shocked by anything that comes off of Mount Bethel.

The light keeps getting brighter but it's plugged into a bad socket.

eyes&ears
02-20-2007, 01:58 PM
Jesh,

As long as we stay plugged into Jehovah's spiritual generator, we will never ever run out of POWER.

E & E

Jeshurun
02-20-2007, 02:08 PM
Jesh,

As long as we stay plugged into Jehovah's spiritual generator, we will never ever run out of POWER.

E & E[/b]

Good thought, e&e. Just out of curiosity I just ran a keyword check on the Watchtower CD-rom on the word "channel" (s) (ing) Got 469 hits on the Watchtower mag alone, and it only goes up to 2001. The majority of these were related to the FD&S.

Hits in the Bible: only 5, all referring to water.

Kenneth
02-20-2007, 02:49 PM
I'm afraid that it's pretty clear to me where this is all going. I will no longer be shocked by anything that comes off of Mount Bethel.

The light keeps getting brighter but it's plugged into a bad socket.[/b]

New light, old light, light gone out, what it is it to be. If they were communicating with one of the 24 elders and he gave them truth in 1935 then what happen in 1939 in the book "Salvation" and the house of Princes, who was directing that. It certainly wasn't one of the 24 elders as no such event occurred. New light on the Generation, new light on the superior authorities, it all becomes blurred and dimmed in the end as the confusion sets in. Why is it we just can't stick to scripture instead of conjecture? :ranting2: :ranting2: :ranting2:

Kenneth :wacko: :187:

Steadfast
02-20-2007, 03:39 PM
Dear Brothers and Sisters,

They should weep with shame.....creating this false scenario to prop up their power grab before approval and authority is granted by Christ...but they won't.

The truth is that the first resurrection begins at the last trumpet, the seventh...just before Armageddon. And the entire group of 144,000 go to heaven at the same time...TOGETHER, as 1st Thessalonians 4 describes.

Jesus did tell us that the wicked slave will reside alongside the good slave until the harvest. I understand this to mean that the wicked slave has been sown by Satan, and so the evidence seems to testify.

So, could there be false anointed or outright imposters residing within the true household of God? Absolutely! How will we know these wicked ones? By the fruitage they produce. A good tree cannot produce rotten fruitage, and neither can a rotten tree produce good fruitage.

Look at what Revelation 2:9 says to the congregation at Smyrna:

'I know your tribuation and poverty-but you are rich-and the blasphemy by those who say they themselves are Jews, and yet they are not but are a synagogue of Satan.'

Love, :Love:

Steadfast

Shibboleth
02-20-2007, 03:55 PM
The truth is that the first resurrection begins at the last trumpet, the seventh...just before Armageddon. And the entire group of 144,000 go to heaven at the same time...TOGETHER, as 1st Thessalonians 4 describes.[/b]


To add on to your comment that would also mean that those who are living would be instantly transformed when the last trumpet was heard. Keeping inline with what the scriptures say. So the Society answers their own question when they say they are unsure if there will be annointed left on earth after the great tribulation and during Armegeddon. Since the scriptures are pretty vivid when they say that the 144,000 are with Jesus at the battle. that says in my mind that the entire 144,000 are with Jesus and that they are no longer on earth or still in their tombs.

So why hasn't the Society even ventured with this thought? It seems pretty clear to me.

I think it is evident that they are so blinded by some of the doctrines that they miss the point. they always revert back to 1914. Which I do believe is a significant year, but I don't think it is the actual year to base the entire prophesy on.

Steadfast
02-20-2007, 06:13 PM
Dear Brother Shib,

If we examine the ministry of the two witnesses in Revelation 11, we will find that these two represent the preaching in sackcloth and ashes that is done by the living anointed on earth during the tribulation.

Verse 7 says:

'And when they had finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will make war with them and conquer them and kill them.

And verse 9 says that their corpses lay exposed for all to see for 3-1/2 days. After the 3-1/2 days, they are resurrected. It is at this point, that all 144,000 ascend to heaven, which is confirmed in verse 12:

'And they heard a loud voice out of heaven say to them: "Come on up here." And they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them.'''

Couple these verses with these other verses and the picture is complete about the timing of the first resurrection, and who is included:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 – For this is what we say to you by the very word of our Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of our Lord shall not precede those who are dead.*

*sheol-dead

For our Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God; and those who have died in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet our Lord in the air.

The following scripture tells you when the gathering of the chosen ones takes place.

Matthew 24:29, 31 – Immediately after the tribulation of those days….And he (Jesus) will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

1 Corinthians tells you exactly when the elect are resurrected and changed.

1 Corinthians 15:52 – in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Revelation tells you what the last trumpet is....the seventh. These scriptures also tell you when Jesus takes charge of earth's affairs....just before Armageddon.

Revelation 10:7 – but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to blow his trumpet, the sacred secret of God according to the good news which he declared to his own slaves the prophets is indeed brought to a finish.

Revelation 11:15 – The seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: 'The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.'

Revelation 20:6 – Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection; over such the second death has no power, but they shall be the priests of God and of his Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.

The only reason for this horrendous error is deliberate twisting of scripture to support the wicked slave's claim to power and authority by seizing 'crowns' before they are awarded to anyone. These men claim to have the enlightenment of the holy spirit and it is obvious that they don't.


Love, :Love:

Steadfast

Shibboleth
02-20-2007, 06:43 PM
Well put Steadfast. the scriptures don't lie.

Gabriel
02-21-2007, 03:19 PM
Im really surprised watchman has not said anything about this yet? Watchman?

Elihu
02-21-2007, 08:08 PM
solid scriptural reasoning Steadfast,

looking at this from a slightly different angle the following occured to me.

The WT are applying a real-time event to rev 7 which involves a single elder revealing to john the identity of the great Crowd

they claim that the individual elder is an annointed brother who has already been resurrected at some point from 1914 to 1935. and is communicating with the john class.

however there is a fundamental problem with that view and it involves applying a real time event to rev 7. specifically with regard to the elder involved in the real time event

it must be noted that the 24 elders are depicted in revelation consistently as a group surrounding the throne and wearing gold crowns
rev 4:4, Rev 4 9-11, Rev5:8

when the single elder speaks to John about the great crowd, scripture informs us that he is indeed from that group
"and in response one of the elders said to me ....." rev 7:13
clearly showing that the elder belongs to that intimate group.

NOW the WT says that the souls beneath the altar who cry out [Rev 6 :10] are the initial resurrection annointed who are spirit persons now in heaven and they are told to wait for their brothers before justice is done.

the problem is this, if these are literally the spirit sons of God in some waiting place how can anyone of them be that elder who spoke to John and who belonged to the complete fully crowned group?
they have not been joined by their brothers yet and are therefore incomplete, and without crowns!

just my thoughts
Elihu

Berean
02-21-2007, 08:36 PM
You bring up a very good point, Elihu, and I wonder if the one(s) who wrote the article even noticed that glaringly obvious error? I've always thought that the 24 elders are not a depiction of the 144,000, but just what they are: 24 spiritual beings who have the privilege to serve Jehovah in his presence. I wonder, is there anything in the Bible to suggest that the 24 = 144,000?

stayawake
02-22-2007, 02:24 AM
Was just thinking, that WT article was placed with the puplic, seems almost like Jah certainly wants the mag to do HIS bidden.
Those study articles have ten more months of freedom with the public,
so i really expect to see more and more BLUNDERS before they become private
Jahs spirit left King Saul when he tried to contact Samual who had died, which allowed a wicked spirit to enter Saul, why would this be any different.??
OH ! I forgot the WT placed them in Heaven in 1918, so they would be alive then ,Right !
That makes two groups in that first resurrection
Well that is not what the scriptures say, Several have done their research on this board ,scriptures show they are all asleep and they will not presede the remaining ones still waiting the ax, but they will all be raised TOGETHER.So who is one going to believe !
That is not a question.
love stayawake

Shibboleth
02-22-2007, 12:37 PM
Rev.14

3 (http://) And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.[/b]


So if the 144,000 are indeed the 24 elders why is this scripture say they sing the song before the elders?

Nambo
02-22-2007, 05:51 PM
18 (http://) These very [men] have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some.

2nd Timothy 2

Elihu
02-22-2007, 06:28 PM
i am uncertain about the identity of the elders.
On one hand they seem to be a seperate body of Kings who are constantly around the throne of Jehovah, and as Shibboleth has pointed out the 144k sing before these elders.

on the other hand if we read the King james version of Rev 5 :9,10 we read

"And they sing a new song saying
"thou art worthy to take the book and to open the seals thereof for thou wast slain and hast redeemed
US to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue and people and nation.
v 10 and hast made US unto our God Kings and priests and WE shall reign on the earth""

so i am unsure, however i am sure of this
REV 22 v18,19
God does not tolerate deliberate tampering with His word.

Elihu

Shibboleth
02-22-2007, 06:46 PM
i am uncertain about the identity of the elders.
On one hand they seem to be a seperate body of Kings who are constantly around the throne of Jehovah, and as Shibboleth has pointed out the 144k sing before these elders.

on the other hand if we read the King james version of Rev 5 :9,10 we read

"And they sing a new song saying
"thou art worthy to take the book and to open the seals thereof for thou wast slain and hast redeemed
US to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue and people and nation.
v 10 and hast made US unto our God Kings and priests and WE shall reign on the earth""

so i am unsure, however i am sure of this
REV 22 v18,19
God does not tolerate deliberate tampering with His word.

Elihu[/b]

well you are correct to an extent. look at who sing that song. look at it very carefully.




KJV
Rev. 5

8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:


“ You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us<sup>[d (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=5&version=50#fen-NKJV-30784d)]</sup> kings<sup>[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=5&version=50#fen-NKJV-30784e)]</sup> and priests to our God;
And we<sup>[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=5&version=50#fen-NKJV-30784f)]</sup> shall reign on the earth.”[/b]

here it shows that the four living creatures along with the 24 elders sing a song. Where are the 144,000? The 144,000 and the 24 elders cannot be the same since the 144,000 sing a song in front of the four living creatures and the 24 elders.




KJV
Rev. 14

3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.[/b]

Nambo
02-22-2007, 07:14 PM
the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, having each one a harp and golden bowls that were full of incense, and the [incense] means the prayers of the holy ones. 9 (http://) And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 (http://) and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

Interesing to see that the NWT doesnt say "US", but says "them" and "they".

The King James says "US" but the scripture says the 4 creatures and the 24 elders where holding golden bowls full of the prayers of the Holy Ones, would this imply they where holding thier own prayers?, doesnt seem right to me, I think it looks like the 4 and 24 are not singing about themslevs, but about those whom the prayers they are looking after, the Holy Ones, or 144000.

So this would also look to me like the 24 Elders where not the Holy oNes holding thier own prayers either, but in a similar league to the 4 living creatures.

Shibboleth
02-22-2007, 07:30 PM
Right on Nambo. I was just gonna say something similar to that.

I can see where the Society came to the conclusion that the 144,000 could be the 24 elders but how do you explain the rest of the scriptures? I noticed in the Climax book that they explain only what they want to explain and leave other texts to conjecture. Which is probably the reason why I haven&#39;t been to a book study in 3 weeks.

stayawake
02-23-2007, 03:45 PM
Rev.14

3 (http://) And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.[/b]


So if the 144,000 are indeed the 24 elders why is this scripture say they sing the song before the elders?
[/b]


My dear brothers ,this is the best post ever.
It&#39;s a keeper, I am going to mark it in my Bible.
Now what do you think would happen if we pointed ,this out to one of the elders !
We would be taken to the back room in a heartbeat
OK so they said possible, could be , they weren&#39;t sure etc.
If we were to suggest this same thing to others, before the GB did in this last study, we would be before a judicial meeting.
Well anyway, this scriptual overthrow is a GEM.
Thank you so much
love stayawake

Elihu
02-23-2007, 09:29 PM
very interesting points although i am still not sure and probably will not be for a long time.

another point of support for the 144k not being the elders is in the manner that John replies to the elder when he is asked about the great multitude

"so i said "my lord you are the one that knows"
John demonstrates subjection by the word lord.

however if we assume that the elders are not the glorified 144k and are a special spirit class that have always resided in the presence of Jehovah, we then raise other issues and questions.

for example

My original point that the souls beneath the altar could not yet be an Elder speaking to John at rev 7 13 does now not stand up, because the Elder is not part of the glorified 144k and therfore could actually be speaking to John in a real event.

if this were the case this event may be a future event during the time period that the remnant preach to the world and when the great crowd are indeed gathered.

unfortunatley this follows the thinking of the WT except the timing of the event differs.

of course that does not necessarily mean that this will not happen it may prove to be just another scripture misaligned by the artfully contrived false 1914 doctrine.

Hope i am not confusing anyone, just reasoning on this topic

many thanks for such a wholesome discussion
Elihu

stayawake
02-23-2007, 11:15 PM
Dear Elihu
Very good point
.For John to refer to the eder as "my lord &#39; would indeed show that John was indeed in subjection to this elder
WE know that the body members of Christ make up one Body,with the head being Christ.

You mentioned that the dead annointed are Glorified ,
Not so, as the scriptures still have them resting in their grave.
In fact being that the scriptures have them all asending to heaven as the Bride together, shows that they will all see the 24 elders are not them
.They are the 144,000 and thats it.They are the only ones that were able to master that new song. The elders were not singing that new song.
love stayawake

Eli&#39;s Foe
02-23-2007, 11:49 PM
I am not wholly convinced by this reasoning since in Revelation chapter 4 the 24 elders are identified as wearing white outer garments and golden crowns. You may recall that the locusts of Revelation similarly wear golden crowns, thereby differentiating them from the locusts of Joel who are certainly not the anointed.
What is more, Revelation 5:9 also describes the 24 elders as singing a new song. I think it is in fact possible that as occurs elsewhere in this book, events do not follow on in what we might perceive as a logical chronological manner, but rather view the same events from different perspectives.
The reference to John calling the speaker "Lord" may simply be due to the fact that John has been transported in vision to the Lord&#39;s Day when this elder represents the resurrected anointed and is therefore a King with Christ, whereas John would be yet to receive his crown.

What is perhaps more telling, and on this we all appear agreed, in 1935 the elders (if the annointed) were not in heaven and the received wisdom of the GB was in doubt and its source dubious. Kenneth makes a compelling argument that if the received wisdom was from one of the 24 elders, why was later guidance so faulty?

If we take the line that the 24 elders are a different group from the annointed, then that leaves open the possibility that they could communicate with those on earth, this surely cant be the case.

The issue is also addressed on pages 200 and 201 of the Grand Climax book and worth reading.

I think some of the earlier argumentation on this thread is therefore worth revisiting - it is far more likely that any guidance the GB think they received in 1935 was from a far more dubious source than anyone in association with Jehovah or his Son. It also clarifies that no one should refer to themselves as one of the great crowd at this point.

Watchman has in fact quite a lot to say on these matters if we study all the commentaries, essays and read his book.

EF

Elihu
02-24-2007, 08:58 AM
you speak wisley Eli&#39;s Foe,

our reasoning should be firmly based in scripture and less on speculation. I will research scripture and watchmans essays to see if i can find a little more clarity.

However i think we have gained a great deal from this discussion.

Shibboleth has used numerous scriptures and sound reasoning to highlight the timing of events with regard to the resurrection and who this involves.

Also the WT&#39;s notion that one of the resurrected annointed under the altar takes on the form of an Elder and reveals the secret of the Great Crowds identity to the john class is nothing more than a NOTION.

Also as you rightly say other comments on this topic have raised the point that this is a very serious situation because it now raises the question about who is enlightening the WT.

much peace to you all
Elihu