Earthly Hope

[Steadfast]

Dear friends:

One of the things that has always been clear to me is the great multitude that comes out of the great tribulation. In my years of research, I have been able to add a few points to my understanding that I would like to share.

They say that timing is everything. I never really understood the book of Revelation because I never spent much time in it, but the more I studied it the more some features became clear.

1. Paul described the first resurrection:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 – For this is what we tell you by the Lord's word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. AFTERWARD, we the living who are surviving will TOGETHER WITH THEM, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

2. Paul narrowed it down even more and said it would happen at the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Corinthians 15:52 – in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

3. Jesus Christ described it in Matthew 24:

Matthew 24:29, 31 – IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS….And he (Jesus) will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

4. Finally, John gives us more information in the book of Revelation:

Revelation 10:7 – but in the days of the sounding of THE SEVENTH ANGEL, WHEN HE IS ABOUT TO BLOW HIS TRUMPET, the sacred secret of God according to the good news which he declared to his own slaves the prophets is indeed brought to a finish.

John also was given the vision about the great multitude after the 144,000 are sealed:

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousands, having been sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel.

And then…

Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palms in their hands.

Rev 7:13-17 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come? And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of the great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them. They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

IMO, this group is entirely separate because the 144,000 are defined by number and the great multitude is un-numerable. Some speculate that this group also goes to heaven, but the rest of Revelation gives a few things to think about.

- This great multitude will result from the two-witness preaching outlined in Revelation 11:

Rev 11:3 And I will give power to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.

- At the fifth trumpet, another group is described:

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded. And I saw a star fall from the heaven to the earth, and it was given the key of the abyss.

Rev 9:4 And they were commanded not to hurt the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads.

- And also Matthew 24:14 where Jesus said:

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all nations. And then the end shall come.

When is the final call to get out of Babylon the Great? Just BEFORE she is destroyed by the nations on the CUSP of Armageddon:

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his plague into the air. And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done!

- Babylon the Great is remembered by God. (Remember = mnaomai = by implication reward or punish.) She splits into three parts (dragon, beast, false prophet – Rev 13):

Rev 16:19 And the great city came to be into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give to her the cup of the wine of the anger of His wrath.

- LAST CALL FOR GOD'S PEOPLE TO GET OUT OF BABYLON THE GREAT.

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from Heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that you may not be partakers of her sins, and that you may not receive of her plagues.

- Babylon the Great destroyed by the beast as God puts it into their heart.

Rev 17:15-17 And he says to me, The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues, and the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked. And they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. For God gave into their hearts to do His mind, and to act with one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast until the Words of God will be fulfilled.

- The kings and merchants mourn.

Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth who have committed fornication and lived in luxury with her will weep for her, and will wail over her when they see the smoke of her burning.

Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their cargo any more.

- The great multitude rejoices:

Rev 19:6 And I heard as the sound of a great multitude, and as the sound of many waters, and as the sound of strong thunders, saying, Hallelujah! For the Lord God omnipotent reigns!

- The marriage of the Lamb (First resurrection):

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice and we will give glory to Him. For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has prepared herself. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white. For the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints.

IT IS FINISHED

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his plague into the air. And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done!

- The beast and false prophet are thrown into lake of fire:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 16:18 And voices and thunders and lightnings occurred. And there was a great earthquake, such as has not been since men were on the earth, so mighty and so great an earthquake.

Rev 16:21 And a great hail, as the size of a talent, came down out of the heaven on men. And men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague of it was exceedingly great.

- The great evening meal of God:

Rev 19:17 And I saw one angel standing in the sun. And he cried with a great voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid-heaven, Come and gather together to the supper of the great God,

Rev 19:18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of commanders, and the flesh of strong ones, and the flesh of horses, and those sitting on them, and the flesh of all, both free and slave, both small and great.

What happens AFTER Armageddon?

- Satan is chained in the abyss:

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years.

Rev 20:3 And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time.

- New Jerusalem descends from heaven.

Rev 21:2 And I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her Husband.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God.

- The 1000 year resurrection, restoration, and judgment commences as Jesus said:

Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice,

Joh 5:29 and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God.

- The leaves of the trees in New Jerusalem are used for curing the MULTITUDE (nations):

Rev 22:2 In the midst of its street, and of the river, from here and from there, was the Tree of Life, which bore twelve fruits, each yielding its fruit according to one month. And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Rev 21:4 And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away.

Rev 21:24 And the nations of those who are saved will walk in the light of it; and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.

- At the end of the Millenium, Satan is let loose out of his released from his prison:

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison.

Rev 20:8 And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea.

- Satan surrounds camp of the holy ones:

Rev 20:9a And they went up over the breadth of the earth and circled around the camp of the saints, and the beloved city.

- Satan is destroyed in lake of fire:

Rev. 20:9b And fire came down from God out of Heaven and devoured them.

Rev 20:10 And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were .

Paradise earth and eternal life is finally realized. Many say that the earth will be destroyed and everyone will go to heaven, but from the above verses, it clearly shows inhabitants on the earth preceding Satan's release from the abyss…and also here:

Rev 20:3 And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more UNTIL the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time.

Some of these must NOT have died during Armageddon because the call to get out of Babylon is very late in the great trib and for a specific reason.

So what are the benefits of those with an earthly hope? Think about what Adam and Eve lost for each one of us…and then we can understand that what went wrong in Eden was remedied in Revelation by means of Jehovah's beloved Son.

JWs are right: The earthly hope is everlasting life on a paradise earth.

Love,

Steadfast

[watchman]

Hello Steadfast

I heartily concur. If the symbolic leaves of the trees are for the curing of the nations, or ethnic and national groups, then, obviously, there are PEOPLE on the earth that are in need of God's healing power after the tribulation.

watchman

[Gabriel]

Rev 20:3 And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more UNTIL the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time.

Some of these must NOT have died during Armageddon because the call to get out of Babylon is very late in the great trib and for a specific reason.


Steadfast[/b]

I really enjoyed reading your timeline Steadfast! can you please explain what you mean tho from the two paragraphs above. Why wouldnt all the opposers be destroyed during the time of Armageddon and what reason for the late call to " Get out of her" do you thhink there was?

[Jinnvisible]

Nice summery, Steadfast.

[Steadfast]

Dear Gabe,

The reason the call of Babylon the Great is so late in the timeline is because Jehovah doesn't desire any to be lost. Right up to the last minute...humans can avail themselves of the opportunity for life. :clap:

Love,

Steadfast

[billy]

I enjoyed your post Steadfast - wouldnt it be great to do the time and events in a movie style as a visual lesson - i think its been brought out that the wts places BTG as the beginning of all these events? and Im still thinking the wts still has some connection to the BTG - people within the org really need to be taking a stand about the gross things going on -

[Steadfast]

Dear Billy,

'Im still thinking the wts still has some connection to the BTG'

The deeper we dig, the dirtier it gets. :angry:

Love,

Steadfast

[billy]

So true Steadfast

BTG is in trouble for persecuting and killing God's servents from the beginning of the world - I think it definetely represents RELIGION - in all shapes and forms - even Isreal was and is part of it - as they were prolific in killing off the prophets from Jehovah - so the WTS being a religion and disfellowshipping God's servents who stand up for justice and what is right are just as guilty - RELIGION really has to go

[bimp5]

Dear friends:

One of the things that has always been clear to me is the great multitude that comes out of the great tribulation. In my years of research, I have been able to add a few points to my understanding that I would like to share.

They say that timing is everything. I never really understood the book of Revelation because I never spent much time in it, but the more I studied it the more some features became clear.

1. Paul described the first resurrection:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 – For this is what we tell you by the Lord's word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. AFTERWARD, we the living who are surviving will TOGETHER WITH THEM, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

2. Paul narrowed it down even more and said it would happen at the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15:

1 Corinthians 15:52 – in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

3. Jesus Christ described it in Matthew 24:

Matthew 24:29, 31 – IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS….And he (Jesus) will send forth his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

4. Finally, John gives us more information in the book of Revelation:

Revelation 10:7 – but in the days of the sounding of THE SEVENTH ANGEL, WHEN HE IS ABOUT TO BLOW HIS TRUMPET, the sacred secret of God according to the good news which he declared to his own slaves the prophets is indeed brought to a finish.

John also was given the vision about the great multitude after the 144,000 are sealed:

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousands, having been sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel.

And then…

Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of all nations and kindreds and people and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palms in their hands.

Rev 7:13-17 And one of the elders answered, saying to me, Who are these who are arrayed in white robes, and from where do they come? And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of the great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple. And He sitting on the throne will dwell among them. They will not hunger any more, nor thirst any more, nor will the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

IMO, this group is entirely separate because the 144,000 are defined by number and the great multitude is un-numerable. Some speculate that this group also goes to heaven, but the rest of Revelation gives a few things to think about.

- This great multitude will result from the two-witness preaching outlined in Revelation 11:

Rev 11:3 And I will give power to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.

- At the fifth trumpet, another group is described:

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded. And I saw a star fall from the heaven to the earth, and it was given the key of the abyss.

Rev 9:4 And they were commanded not to hurt the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads.

- And also Matthew 24:14 where Jesus said:

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all nations. And then the end shall come.

When is the final call to get out of Babylon the Great? Just BEFORE she is destroyed by the nations on the CUSP of Armageddon:

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his plague into the air. And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done!

- Babylon the Great is remembered by God. (Remember = mnaomai = by implication reward or punish.) She splits into three parts (dragon, beast, false prophet – Rev 13):

Rev 16:19 And the great city came to be into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give to her the cup of the wine of the anger of His wrath.

- LAST CALL FOR GOD'S PEOPLE TO GET OUT OF BABYLON THE GREAT.

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from Heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that you may not be partakers of her sins, and that you may not receive of her plagues.

- Babylon the Great destroyed by the beast as God puts it into their heart.

Rev 17:15-17 And he says to me, The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues, and the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked. And they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. For God gave into their hearts to do His mind, and to act with one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast until the Words of God will be fulfilled.

- The kings and merchants mourn.

Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth who have committed fornication and lived in luxury with her will weep for her, and will wail over her when they see the smoke of her burning.

Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their cargo any more.

- The great multitude rejoices:

Rev 19:6 And I heard as the sound of a great multitude, and as the sound of many waters, and as the sound of strong thunders, saying, Hallelujah! For the Lord God omnipotent reigns!

- The marriage of the Lamb (First resurrection):

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice and we will give glory to Him. For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has prepared herself. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white. For the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints.

IT IS FINISHED

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his plague into the air. And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done!

- The beast and false prophet are thrown into lake of fire:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet doing signs before it, (by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast), and those who had worshiped his image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 16:18 And voices and thunders and lightnings occurred. And there was a great earthquake, such as has not been since men were on the earth, so mighty and so great an earthquake.

Rev 16:21 And a great hail, as the size of a talent, came down out of the heaven on men. And men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague of it was exceedingly great.

- The great evening meal of God:

Rev 19:17 And I saw one angel standing in the sun. And he cried with a great voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid-heaven, Come and gather together to the supper of the great God,

Rev 19:18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of commanders, and the flesh of strong ones, and the flesh of horses, and those sitting on them, and the flesh of all, both free and slave, both small and great.

What happens AFTER Armageddon?

- Satan is chained in the abyss:

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years.

Rev 20:3 And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time.

- New Jerusalem descends from heaven.

Rev 21:2 And I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of Heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her Husband.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God.

- The 1000 year resurrection, restoration, and judgment commences as Jesus said:

Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice,

Joh 5:29 and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of Heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God.

- The leaves of the trees in New Jerusalem are used for curing the MULTITUDE (nations):

Rev 22:2 In the midst of its street, and of the river, from here and from there, was the Tree of Life, which bore twelve fruits, each yielding its fruit according to one month. And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Rev 21:4 And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away.

Rev 21:24 And the nations of those who are saved will walk in the light of it; and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.

- At the end of the Millenium, Satan is let loose out of his released from his prison:

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison.

Rev 20:8 And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea.

- Satan surrounds camp of the holy ones:

Rev 20:9a And they went up over the breadth of the earth and circled around the camp of the saints, and the beloved city.

- Satan is destroyed in lake of fire:

Rev. 20:9b And fire came down from God out of Heaven and devoured them.

Rev 20:10 And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were .

Paradise earth and eternal life is finally realized. Many say that the earth will be destroyed and everyone will go to heaven, but from the above verses, it clearly shows inhabitants on the earth preceding Satan's release from the abyss…and also here:

Rev 20:3 And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more UNTIL the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time.

Some of these must NOT have died during Armageddon because the call to get out of Babylon is very late in the great trib and for a specific reason.

So what are the benefits of those with an earthly hope? Think about what Adam and Eve lost for each one of us…and then we can understand that what went wrong in Eden was remedied in Revelation by means of Jehovah's beloved Son.

JWs are right: The earthly hope is everlasting life on a paradise earth.

Love,

Steadfast[/b]

Talk about Information overload :203: . This is something I will have to print and go over and spend some time on just as you have. I hope I can get a clearer understanding by spending some time on it. Thanks :D

[SlaveForJah]

- This great multitude will result from the two-witness preaching outlined in Revelation 11:

Rev 11:3 And I will give power to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.[/b]

Hey there Steadfast,

How you doin', Sister? So, I have a question...If the multitude results only from the prophesying of the Two Witnesses, where does that leave the rest of us, those with the earthly hope, at this point in time? Is the preaching work of Jehovah's Witnesses (and others) of no value at this time?

Looking forward to hearing your perspective.


Agape

SlaveForJah

[Steadfast]

Dear SlaveForJah,

Good to 'see' you again, brother. :)

You said: 'If the multitude results only from the prophesying of the Two Witnesses, where does that leave the rest of us, those with the earthly hope, at this point in time?'

Me: Where would it leave you if you died today: Part of the righteous group when the general resurrection takes place.

The issue for me is timing…when is the book of Revelation fulfilled? Jesus said the vision was specifically for the 'Lord's Day. So it would be important to establish just when the Lord's Day takes place.

Rev 1:10 I came to be in the Spirit in the Lord's day and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet….

Since the rest of the book seems to define a specific time period characterized as 1260 days, 42 months, and times, time, and half a time, then I am concluding that the book of Revelation is fulfilled in this timeframe. Others will disagree with me.

If this 3-1/2 year period is correct, then the two witnesses preach only during this time…which also means the great multitude has not formed yet. If we live to see the start of the great tribulation, chances are that many alive would become part of that great multitude.

Hypothetical situation: Suppose a person stands fast in Christ now, lives to the start of the great trib, but for some reason falls away. Maybe they are deceived and take the mark of the beast. Could it happen? Absolutely. Jesus warned that deception would be great during the great trib.

You said: 'Is the preaching work of Jehovah's Witnesses (and others) of no value at this time?'

Me: Spreading the gospel is always important because if a person dies faithful before the start of the great trib, they will probably be among the 'righteous' who are resurrected:

Act 24:15 And I have a hope in God, which they also themselves expect, that there is to be a resurrection of the dead, both of the righteous and the wicked.

The great tribulation is a very unique and specific period of time in Biblical history. The problem with the Watchtower is they are premature in their application of Revelation…IMO

By the way, that was two questions. :185:

Love,

Steadfast

[meekone]

Steadfast,

I agree to disagree on a couple things:

First, we must recall that in Rev 5:5,6 John utilizes a pattern of 'I heard' and 'I saw' that is repeated through these initial chapters. In this instance first he hears that the Lion of the Tribe of Judah is the one worthy to open the scrolls and then this is followed by John saying that he saw the lamb taking the scrolls. Thus, a similar patter is seen in Ch 7. First, John hears that the number of these to be sealed total 144,000 and then John says that then he sees a great crowd which could not be numbered... so not only does this prove that the 144K number is symbolic but also that the great crowd and the 144K are the same.

Let's also not forget that in Ch 6 the souls of those under the altar are given white garments just like the GC. We all know what those white garments mean, thus why would an 'earthly' GC crowd be given white garments right after they come out of the tribulation if according to the WTBS the GC is not to be fully clean and perfect until the end of the 1000 year reign?

Finally, lets not forget that this GC crowd is said to serve day and night in the temple (naos - inner sanctuary representing heaven) and how Jehovah extends his tent/tabernacle (naos again) over the GC.

There is no doubt in my mind that there will be earthly survivors though, but it is not the GC in Ch7.

I recall reading how pastor Russell at one time believed that Armageddon would target mainly the wordly systems (govt, etc) and not necessarily mankind which is in line with Dan. 2:44. I share this belief although I need to research it more :)

[truthseeker]

Steadfast,

I agree to disagree on a couple things:

First, we must recall that in Rev 5:5,6 John utilizes a pattern of 'I heard' and 'I saw' that is repeated through these initial chapters. In this instance first he hears that the Lion of the Tribe of Judah is the one worthy to open the scrolls and then this is followed by John saying that he saw the lamb taking the scrolls. Thus, a similar patter is seen in Ch 7. First, John hears that the number of these to be sealed total 144,000 and then John says that then he sees a great crowd which could not be numbered... so not only does this prove that the 144K number is symbolic but also that the great crowd and the 144K are the same.

Let's also not forget that in Ch 6 the souls of those under the altar are given white garments just like the GC. We all know what those white garments mean, thus why would an 'earthly' GC crowd be given white garments right after they come out of the tribulation if according to the WTBS the GC is not to be fully clean and perfect until the end of the 1000 year reign?

Finally, lets not forget that this GC crowd is said to serve day and night in the temple (naos - inner sanctuary representing heaven) and how Jehovah extends his tent/tabernacle (naos again) over the GC.

There is no doubt in my mind that there will be earthly survivors though, but it is not the GC in Ch7.

I recall reading how pastor Russell at one time believed that Armageddon would target mainly the wordly systems (govt, etc) and not necessarily mankind which is in line with Dan. 2:44. I share this belief although I need to research it more :)[/b]

Meekone
Clever observation:But how could the GC if they are in white robes mean they are perfect. If in verse 17 of the seventh chapter they are guided to fountains of water of life and have need for there tears to be wiped from there eye's.

You see: your getting to the point of trying to prove there are different heavenly classes. Does that make scriptural sense, we need to base our understanding on the bible as a whole. Maybe you could use other scriptures to support your ideas.

Love Truthseeker

[Steadfast]

Dear Friends,

Meekone said: First, we must recall that in Rev 5:5,6 John utilizes a pattern of 'I heard' and 'I saw' that is repeated through these initial chapters."

Me: I agree, but Revelation was a prophecy given for the future. John was merely recording those things because he was watching them unfold before his eyes.

Revelation teaches that New Jerusalem descends from heaven to the earth:

Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, the New Jerusalem, descending from God out of heaven, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice from heaven, which said: Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men; and he dwelleth with them: they will be his people; and God will be with them, a God to them.

Rev 21:4 And every tear will be wiped from their eyes; and there will no more be death, nor mourning, nor wailing; nor shall pain be any more; because the former things are passed away.

What is the purpose of New Jerusalem? If we spiritualize these verses and say that New Jerusalem doesn't really descend to earth but God's rulership does, then we must also spiritualize:

Rev 22:1 And he showed me a river of living water, transparent [as] crystal, which proceeded from the throne of God and the Lamb.

Rev 22:2 And in the middle of its broad avenue, and near the river, on this side and on that, was the tree of life; which bore twelve fruits yielding one of its fruits each month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.

Spiritual tree? Maybe not. We have to remember that literal trees on earth were involved in the rebellion in Eden. Or it that spiritual too?

One question that no one has been able to answer for me is who are the nations on the earth when Satan is freed from the abyss and where do they come from?

Rev 20:7 And when these thousand years shall be completed, Satan will be released from his prison;

Rev 20:8 and will go forth to seduce the nations that are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog; and to assemble them for battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and encompassed the camp of the saints, AND the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven, and consumed them.

What is the beloved city if not a literal New Jerusalem? And if New Jerusalem literally comes to earth, there will be no immortal humans permanently ruling from heaven. Yes, those part of the first resurrection, the Bride of Christ, do go to heaven for the marriage, but apparently, they don't stay there.

This is a great discussion. :188:

Love,

Steadfast

[FutureMan]

Dear Friends,

Meekone said: First, we must recall that in Rev 5:5,6 John utilizes a pattern of 'I heard' and 'I saw' that is repeated through these initial chapters."

Me: I agree, but Revelation was a prophecy given for the future. John was merely recording those things because he was watching them unfold before his eyes.

Revelation teaches that New Jerusalem descends from heaven to the earth:

Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, the New Jerusalem, descending from God out of heaven, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice from heaven, which said: Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men; and he dwelleth with them: they will be his people; and God will be with them, a God to them.

Rev 21:4 And every tear will be wiped from their eyes; and there will no more be death, nor mourning, nor wailing; nor shall pain be any more; because the former things are passed away.

What is the purpose of New Jerusalem? If we spiritualize these verses and say that New Jerusalem doesn't really descend to earth but God's rulership does, then we must also spiritualize:

Rev 22:1 And he showed me a river of living water, transparent [as] crystal, which proceeded from the throne of God and the Lamb.

Rev 22:2 And in the middle of its broad avenue, and near the river, on this side and on that, was the tree of life; which bore twelve fruits yielding one of its fruits each month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.

Spiritual tree? Maybe not. We have to remember that literal trees on earth were involved in the rebellion in Eden. Or it that spiritual too?

One question that no one has been able to answer for me is who are the nations on the earth when Satan is freed from the abyss and where do they come from?

Rev 20:7 And when these thousand years shall be completed, Satan will be released from his prison;

Rev 20:8 and will go forth to seduce the nations that are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog; and to assemble them for battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and encompassed the camp of the saints, AND the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven, and consumed them.

What is the beloved city if not a literal New Jerusalem? And if New Jerusalem literally comes to earth, there will be no immortal humans permanently ruling from heaven. Yes, those part of the first resurrection, the Bride of Christ, do go to heaven for the marriage, but apparently, they don't stay there.

This is a great discussion. :188:

Love,

Steadfast[/b]

Hello all from FutureMan while we are discussing the one thousand years etc, there is a puzzling scripture which I'm a bit confused about in (Revelation 20:5) which states simply this "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended." Now according to the Watchtower Society as far as I understand from their point of view this is when the faithful and Holy ones on the earth that survive the end of the thousand years actually recieve eternal life. Thereby being released from their deathlike state which had resulted from Adamic sin. But the scripture in Revelation 20:11-15 does not appear to support that understanding. It clearly talks about a resurrection taking place after the one thousand years and I would assume that this would be the resurrection of the unrighteous ones. The first resurrection took place at the beginning of the one thousand year reign, I assume this would be the righteous ones including ones like Daniel Abraham etc and this is when these ones will receive everlasting life or in the case of the ones that have a heavenly calling (immortality and incorruptability). Or are they both the same thing?

And then the New heaven and New earth takes place. and "New Jerusalem" the Holy City coming down out of heaven down to earth prepared as a bride and lastly death is no more. This seems to be the sequence of events if we are following a pattern of sequence as regards prophecy in this part of Revelation. Has anyone got any understanding on this or any ideas?

[SlaveForJah]

Hello all from FutureMan while we are discussing the one thousand years etc, there is a puzzling scripture which I'm a bit confused about in (Revelation 20:5) which states simply this "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended." Now according to the Watchtower Society as far as I understand from their point of view this is when the faithful and Holy ones on the earth that survive the end of the thousand years actually recieve eternal life. Thereby being released from their deathlike state which had resulted from Adamic sin. But the scripture in Revelation 20:11-15 does not appear to support that understanding. It clearly talks about a resurrection taking place after the one thousand years and I would assume that this would be the resurrection of the unrighteous ones. The first resurrection took place at the beginning of the one thousand year reign, I assume this would be the righteous ones including ones like Daniel Abraham etc and this is when these ones will receive everlasting life or in the case of the ones that have a heavenly calling (immortality and incorruptability). Or are they both the same thing?

And then the New heaven and New earth takes place. and "New Jerusalem" the Holy City coming down out of heaven down to earth prepared as a bride and lastly death is no more. This seems to be the sequence of events if we are following a pattern of sequence as regards prophecy in this part of Revelation. Has anyone got any understanding on this or any ideas?[/b]


Hello there FutureMan,

Christian Greetings. I'd like to try and answer a few of your questions, if I may. From my understanding, not that it differs too greatly from that of the Watchtower's position, the resurrection being spoken of in Revelation 20:5 is the General Resurrection, or the Resurrection of the Righteous and Unrighteous. This takes place during the Reign of Christ or the Millennium.

According to the text of verse 5, 'the rest of the dead (those not raised in the First Resurrection) did not come to life until the end of the 1000 years'. The end is a portion of the 1000 years, albeit the last portion, so therefore during the 1000 years. The context of the scripture seems to indicate that this had been an ongoing process...hence the use of the term "the rest".

The First Resurrection actually does not take place during the Millennium. The Bride of Christ is raised at the last trumpet when their Bridegroom descends to collect them for their Marriage in Heaven. These then return with their King and Lord in execution of Jehovah's judgements at Armageddon. The 144,000 reign together with Christ for the 1000 years, so in order for them to do so, they must be resurrected prior to the beginning of the Millennium.

The "righteous" ones of old, such as Daniel and Abraham will receive an earthly resurrection, and thus will be raised during the Millennium, not prior like the Bride.

The "dead" of Revelation 20:5 is mainly referring to the spiritually dead condition. The work of the Meditorial Reign is to return Jehovah's human children and their home to the original condition that existed in Eden, which Adam forfeited. That work will be complete at the finish, or close, or end of the 1000 years. At which time the condition of humankind will truly change from one of slavery to Adamic death over to life, the real life, life in harmony with our fellow man, the animals, our environment and one of communion directly with our Creator.

Hope this helps.


Agape

SlaveForJah

PS - I think your question on immortality and incorruptibility deserves its own thread.

[billy]

<div class='quotemain'>Dear Friends,

Meekone said: First, we must recall that in Rev 5:5,6 John utilizes a pattern of &#39;I heard&#39; and &#39;I saw&#39; that is repeated through these initial chapters."

Me: I agree, but Revelation was a prophecy given for the future. John was merely recording those things because he was watching them unfold before his eyes.

Revelation teaches that New Jerusalem descends from heaven to the earth:

Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, the New Jerusalem, descending from God out of heaven, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice from heaven, which said: Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men; and he dwelleth with them: they will be his people; and God will be with them, a God to them.

Rev 21:4 And every tear will be wiped from their eyes; and there will no more be death, nor mourning, nor wailing; nor shall pain be any more; because the former things are passed away.

What is the purpose of New Jerusalem? If we spiritualize these verses and say that New Jerusalem doesn&#39;t really descend to earth but God&#39;s rulership does, then we must also spiritualize:

Rev 22:1 And he showed me a river of living water, transparent [as] crystal, which proceeded from the throne of God and the Lamb.

Rev 22:2 And in the middle of its broad avenue, and near the river, on this side and on that, was the tree of life; which bore twelve fruits yielding one of its fruits each month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations.

Spiritual tree? Maybe not. We have to remember that literal trees on earth were involved in the rebellion in Eden. Or it that spiritual too?

One question that no one has been able to answer for me is who are the nations on the earth when Satan is freed from the abyss and where do they come from?

Rev 20:7 And when these thousand years shall be completed, Satan will be released from his prison;

Rev 20:8 and will go forth to seduce the nations that are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog; and to assemble them for battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and encompassed the camp of the saints, AND the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven, and consumed them.

What is the beloved city if not a literal New Jerusalem? And if New Jerusalem literally comes to earth, there will be no immortal humans permanently ruling from heaven. Yes, those part of the first resurrection, the Bride of Christ, do go to heaven for the marriage, but apparently, they don&#39;t stay there.

This is a great discussion. :188:

Love,

Steadfast[/b]

Hello all from FutureMan while we are discussing the one thousand years etc, there is a puzzling scripture which I&#39;m a bit confused about in (Revelation 20:5) which states simply this "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended." Now according to the Watchtower Society as far as I understand from their point of view this is when the faithful and Holy ones on the earth that survive the end of the thousand years actually recieve eternal life. Thereby being released from their deathlike state which had resulted from Adamic sin. But the scripture in Revelation 20:11-15 does not appear to support that understanding. It clearly talks about a resurrection taking place after the one thousand years and I would assume that this would be the resurrection of the unrighteous ones. The first resurrection took place at the beginning of the one thousand year reign, I assume this would be the righteous ones including ones like Daniel Abraham etc and this is when these ones will receive everlasting life or in the case of the ones that have a heavenly calling (immortality and incorruptability). Or are they both the same thing?

And then the New heaven and New earth takes place. and "New Jerusalem" the Holy City coming down out of heaven down to earth prepared as a bride and lastly death is no more. This seems to be the sequence of events if we are following a pattern of sequence as regards prophecy in this part of Revelation. Has anyone got any understanding on this or any ideas?
[/b][/quote]


thats an interesting perspective futureman

i know the scriptures say there will be a ressurection of the righteous and unrighteous but does that have to mean all people are ressurected all together - as another verse uses the term a "better ressurection" - it would seem a fair thing if the righteous were ressurected first then the unrighteous last - this may be why Revelation speaks of the nations at the end who are mislead by satan and dont want to submit to the new Jerusalem

[FutureMan]

<div class='quotemain'>Hello all from FutureMan while we are discussing the one thousand years etc, there is a puzzling scripture which I&#39;m a bit confused about in (Revelation 20:5) which states simply this "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended." Now according to the Watchtower Society as far as I understand from their point of view this is when the faithful and Holy ones on the earth that survive the end of the thousand years actually recieve eternal life. Thereby being released from their deathlike state which had resulted from Adamic sin. But the scripture in Revelation 20:11-15 does not appear to support that understanding. It clearly talks about a resurrection taking place after the one thousand years and I would assume that this would be the resurrection of the unrighteous ones. The first resurrection took place at the beginning of the one thousand year reign, I assume this would be the righteous ones including ones like Daniel Abraham etc and this is when these ones will receive everlasting life or in the case of the ones that have a heavenly calling (immortality and incorruptability). Or are they both the same thing?

And then the New heaven and New earth takes place. and "New Jerusalem" the Holy City coming down out of heaven down to earth prepared as a bride and lastly death is no more. This seems to be the sequence of events if we are following a pattern of sequence as regards prophecy in this part of Revelation. Has anyone got any understanding on this or any ideas?[/b]


Hello there FutureMan,

Christian Greetings. I&#39;d like to try and answer a few of your questions, if I may. From my understanding, not that it differs too greatly from that of the Watchtower&#39;s position, the resurrection being spoken of in Revelation 20:5 is the General Resurrection, or the Resurrection of the Righteous and Unrighteous. This takes place during the Reign of Christ or the Millennium.

According to the text of verse 5, &#39;the rest of the dead (those not raised in the First Resurrection) did not come to life until the end of the 1000 years&#39;. The end is a portion of the 1000 years, albeit the last portion, so therefore during the 1000 years. The context of the scripture seems to indicate that this had been an ongoing process...hence the use of the term "the rest".

The First Resurrection actually does not take place during the Millennium. The Bride of Christ is raised at the last trumpet when their Bridegroom descends to collect them for their Marriage in Heaven. These then return with their King and Lord in execution of Jehovah&#39;s judgements at Armageddon. The 144,000 reign together with Christ for the 1000 years, so in order for them to do so, they must be resurrected prior to the beginning of the Millennium.

The "righteous" ones of old, such as Daniel and Abraham will receive an earthly resurrection, and thus will be raised during the Millennium, not prior like the Bride.

The "dead" of Revelation 20:5 is mainly referring to the spiritually dead condition. The work of the Meditorial Reign is to return Jehovah&#39;s human children and their home to the original condition that existed in Eden, which Adam forfeited. That work will be complete at the finish, or close, or end of the 1000 years. At which time the condition of humankind will truly change from one of slavery to Adamic death over to life, the real life, life in harmony with our fellow man, the animals, our environment and one of communion directly with our Creator.

Hope this helps.


Agape

SlaveForJah

PS - I think your question on immortality and incorruptibility deserves its own thread.
[/b][/quote]

Hello their SlaveForJah and thanks for replying so promptly.

You mentioned that the ones with the heavenly hope will be raised up to heavenly life at the blast of the seventh trumpet. But at the seventh trumpet is when the Kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ is firmly established and when he starts to act with Kingdom power. (Revelation 11:15,17) Or do I have a wrong understanding here.
As I understand this is when he would begin ruling over the world for the one thousand years. Also the scripture in revelation 11:18 seems to indicate that the resurrection of the ones with the heavenly hope will be after he begins ruling over the earth. But I understand also that for there to be a valid kingdom with all it&#39;s members they need to all be sealed and either resurrected to heavenly life as in the case of those who have already died or on the earth as representative members of the kingdom. So from my logic this must take place in the 1st year the reign of the one thousand years and The resurrection of the faithful ones with an earthly hope will follow soon after. Or is it that at this time Jesus starts to act with authority and inspect his house first and then the ones whom he determine to be the faithful slave will receive an appointed over all his belongings and thats when the one thousand reign begins when all the prospective member haves been finally chosen and sealed.

From FutureMan who is still slightly confused.

[Steadfast]

Dear Friends,

Future Man said: "Hello all from FutureMan while we are discussing the one thousand years etc, there is a puzzling scripture which I&#39;m a bit confused about in (Revelation 20:5) which states simply this "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.""

Me: I&#39;m going to put some more fuel on the fire on part of Revelation 20:5:

"The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended."

This part is not found in the oldest manuscripts but was apparently added much later, which is why some translations have it in brackets or parentheses. Here is how the verses read without the interpolation:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

With the interpolation removed, these verses seem much clearer in their descriptive intent about the first resurrection, and the fact that there are nations on the earth after Satan is released from the abyss, lends weight to the second resurrection taking place at the beginning or during the 1000 year Millenium.

Just some more food for thought. :D

Love,

Steadfast

[meekone]

Dear Friends,

Meekone said: First, we must recall that in Rev 5:5,6 John utilizes a pattern of &#39;I heard&#39; and &#39;I saw&#39; that is repeated through these initial chapters."

Me: I agree, but Revelation was a prophecy given for the future. John was merely recording those things because he was watching them unfold before his eyes.
This is a great discussion. :188:

Love,

Steadfast[/b]

hi guys,

Well, all I know is that John&#39;s vision put him right in the middle of the action so thus he continually recorded the expression and &#39;I heard&#39; and &#39;I saw&#39; because as Steadfast mentioned everthing he recorded was unfolding before his eyes and ears.

The many years I&#39;ve studied the bible I had always silently understood that chapters 5 through 7 which mention those killed slaughtered servants under the altar and the 144,000 waiting to sealed and the great crowd that no man could number are the same anointed heavenly class group...

It is so easy to see that John, a man with the same physical senses such as any of us would record things the way he did... "and I heard [from the 4 angels] that their number was one hundred forty four thousand..."... "and then I saw and look, a great multitude that no man could number"... of course John having the same visual limitations as we do would not have recorded "look a great multitude which numbers 144,000"... He didn&#39;t do the counting of the 144,000, rather he overheard it from the angels... once you just commit to read these chapters without any preconceived ideas it will be so crystal clear that you will think how come I never got this????!!!!

let me share a story with all of you which clearly shows how the spirit works in such heart touching and revealing ways... my wife, who happens to be a native of South America and is not and has never been a witness understood this about the 144K and the GC being the same all along even before we met. For her it wasn&#39;t such a big deal because she understood it plain and simply from her personal bible reading without any biased preconceived ideas such as the ones we unfortunately were taught...Imagine the surprise when I heard that from her!

Her former church in her native homeland is also quite a fascinating story that deserves its own thread but it was surprising for me to see in them not only the things we as JWs have done (preaching, etc) but also the things that very rarely we see in our congregations (taking care of widows, the ill, even selling property and distributing amongst themselves)....


"If God spare my life ere many years, I will cause a boy that driveth the plow, shall know more of the Scripture than thou dost." - William Tyndale

[FutureMan]

Dear Friends,

Future Man said: "Hello all from FutureMan while we are discussing the one thousand years etc, there is a puzzling scripture which I&#39;m a bit confused about in (Revelation 20:5) which states simply this "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.""

Me: I&#39;m going to put some more fuel on the fire on part of Revelation 20:5:

"The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended."

This part is not found in the oldest manuscripts but was apparently added much later, which is why some translations have it in brackets or parentheses. Here is how the verses read without the interpolation:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 This is the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

With the interpolation removed, these verses seem much clearer in their descriptive intent about the first resurrection, and the fact that there are nations on the earth after Satan is released from the abyss, lends weight to the second resurrection taking place at the beginning or during the 1000 year Millenium.

Just some more food for thought. :D

Love,

Steadfast[/b]

Hello there steadfast and everyone,
Looks like I need to do a lot more investigating about this subject. But I will mention however that from my viewpoint the fact that the nations are on the earth at the end when Satan is released from the abyss does not constitute proof that that all the resurrection takes place during the millenium as we do not exactly understand the nature of Har-mageddon. It appears that Har-mageddon is a war between to opposing sides, the wild beast and its supporters and Gods Kingdom and it&#39;s supporters. Those with the mark of the wild beast and who worship it&#39;s Image will be destroyed at this time. But perhaps not permantly.
From my perspective those that have been marked by the man with the inkhorn will receive their reward as members of the Heavenly Kingdom or as the enlighten ones with everlasting life on the earth of which some will be the princes on the earth. What about those who have not been supporters of the wild beast or received it&#39;s mark but who have not exactly had a chance to support God,s Kingdom either, might these be the ones who are left on the earth along with God&#39;s people (with an earthly hope) who continue on living through the 1000 years? The scripture indicate in Revelation(19:19-21) that only those with the mark of the wild beast will be judged at this time. Also the scriptures indicate in revelation 20:3 that there will still be nations on the earth at the beginning of the one thousand years and during and right up to the end when satan is released out of the abyss. Here is another interesting scripture to ponder over, (Zechariah 14:16) read the chapter in it&#39;s context first tho.

From FutureMan

[Steadfast]

Dear FutureMan,

You said: &#39;Those with the mark of the wild beast and who worship it&#39;s Image will be destroyed at this time. But perhaps not permantly.&#39;

Me: Maybe the following verses will help to clarify:

Rev 14:9 And a third angel followed them, saying with a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand,

Rev 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

Does this sound like the second death, lake of fire, Gehenna?

Love,

Steadfast

[FutureMan]

Dear FutureMan,

You said: &#39;Those with the mark of the wild beast and who worship it&#39;s Image will be destroyed at this time. But perhaps not permantly.&#39;

Me: Maybe the following verses will help to clarify:

Rev 14:9 And a third angel followed them, saying with a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand,

Rev 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

Does this sound like the second death, lake of fire, Gehenna?

Love,

Steadfast[/b]

Hello there again Steadfast, If you mean that these ones receive the second death I don&#39;t know,
but it could also indicate an adverse judgement on these ones. therfore they are tormented by a symbolic fire and brimstone scenario. But it does not say forever. But the memory of their receiving the mark will be recorded indefinitely. There is another situation in the bible where true worshipers of Jehovah are actually be disciplined and refined by fire in a good way. (Zechariah 13:8,9)
The scripture in (Revelation 19:20,21) seem to indicate that only the Wild beast and the false prophet are cast into the "lake of fire" or the "fiery lake that burns with sulfur". The rest were killed of with the long sword at this time.
Then during the final judgement of the unrighteous ones by the one on The Great white throne that&#39;s when it appears that those who don&#39;t have there names recorded in "the book of life" will be cast into the "Lake of Fire", the second death.

This is my understanding from my study of the scriptures at this time. Perhaps my understanding is flawed, I don&#39;t know but with the help of the Holy Spirit it will be corrected in the future if this is the case.

From your brother FutureMan.