Fact Or Theories ?

[olrono]

Did you see that point there? Dose it say to ‘shut up’ about the things of darkness? No, it says we have a responsibility to “Bring them out to the light”!

[DoubtingThomas]

Theories (or speculation) about matters can be intellectually stimulating to discuss. I think this forum is a good place for some of us to bring up these matters, especially if we are clear that we are not being dogmatic about something that is not clearly proven as scriptural fact. Many things we like to discuss at the DB are not clear in God's Word. We often hear in the congregations of JW's "well that is just speculation" when we try and discuss some of the topics on this Board in our car groups or fellowship with others. At least we have a safe haven in this little electronic congregation of ours to discuss and theorize on some of these "controversial" topics.

[Nambo]

Theories (or speculation) about matters can be intellectually stimulating to discuss. I think this forum is a good place for some of us to bring up these matters, especially if we are clear that we are not being dogmatic about something that is not clearly proven as scriptural fact. Many things we like to discuss at the DB are not clear in God's Word. We often hear in the congregations of JW's "well that is just speculation" when we try and discuss some of the topics on this Board in our car groups or fellowship with others. At least we have a safe haven in this little electronic congregation of ours to discuss and theorize on some of these "controversial" topics.[/b]

Hi DB, I think you are not getting Olronos point here though.

What is the differance between a fact and a theory or speculation?

A fact is something like for instance when I posted that Norman Baker british Member of Parliament, asked Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, and the treasury department, if they had connects with the Builderbergs.
Now this is a fact, it was recorded in the Hansard.

The firemen who where at the Twin Towers when they fell down reported hearing mulitple explositions before the buildings fell down, this is a fact, you can see the film evidence of them saying it, "boom, boom, boom, boom" (unless they are lying? and why?)

Where I work, there are people who admit to being Bilderbergs, or refer to the Commitee of 300.
This is a fact to me, but as you have no means of varification unlike the Hansard, you would have to take it at whatever level of trust you have for me, or your own researched knowledge of Builderbergs.

So facts are facts, we spend our time to relate these to you in the hope that you might belive us enough to search them out yourself and find such to be true.
If you dont, then yes, they will just be speculation and theories to you and will be of little use to you and others. But they are facts non-the-less.

True, we may put lots of facts together and find they produce what could be termed a theory, but they are still based on fact non-the-less, its not 100% speculation.
And indeed, this is how a lot of law works ie,

A witness reports seeing a 7 foot one legged man hopping away from the scene of a murder with a knife in his hand.
You find a 7 foot one legged man and he is covered in blood that matches the victims.
You find a bloody knife with his finger prints on it.
You have a couple of facts here that indicate this man might be the murderer, but is it just speculation or a theory that he in fact did it?, because nobody actually saw him do it.

[Berean]

The difference between fact and theory, okay, as a future historian, here's my take on the matter: A fact cannot be disproven, a theory can. Furthermore, in order to effectively prove or disprove a theory, it is vital that all the facts/sources the theory is based on, are available to anyone who wishes to put your theory under the microscope. If the theory is based on facts that are proven wrong, you will have to rework your theory so that it will be valid again.

[Shibboleth]

The firemen who where at the Twin Towers when they fell down reported hearing mulitple explositions before the buildings fell down, this is a fact, you can see the film evidence of them saying it, "boom, boom, boom, boom" (unless they are lying? and why?)[/b]

that is a fact, but what is a theory, or most better yet speculation, is that it was bombs that made those sounds. Unless you can find bomb fragments or chemicals that would make up a bomb, those speculations of it being a bomb will still end up being speculations. Alot of these conspiracy theorists will use the fact that the firemen heard booms and when some of these firemen say it sounded like bombs, the theorists will turn around and say they were bombs because the firemen heard them. I have read some of these theorists and the way they come up with their theories are just plain nuts. They will take words out of people's mouths and use certain phrases to make their theories work. Out of the mouth of madmen chaos springs.

[eyes&ears]

Yes Orlono,

I see the point. ( I know you were using this as an example however) I believe as Christians we should speak out and stand up for what is right even if we have to stand alone. But I also believe this should be done in a loving way, if possible. This is just my opinion and my belief.

I also believe timing plays a part and sometimes as much as it may hurt us if speaking out involves someone close to us, we have to use "TOUGH LOVE" just as Jehovah does when he lovingly wants us to redirect our steps, even though it may be painful at the time.

I believe the way we use words can either build up or tear done. It all depends on what it is one is trying to see happen when exposing something or bringing something to the attention of others.

Nope, people I hear quoting scriptures a great deal do not impress me, I have seen too much over my lifetime spiritually and otherwise. Behavior and what you say is what I focus on with those I associate with in person, as well as digging beneath the surface with some of the stuff these folks present to me when they want to try and get close to me for friendship. I just don't go by what I hear anymore. Been through too much trauma by being too open and honest when others were not.. (laughing)

So fact and theory on - it should prove to be very insightful and stimulating for those of you who enjoy that. It is something different and it is good we have this board to express ourselves in good taste. OKEY DOKEY.


As far as answering those who have issues with what you state and how you should respond, (IMO) you should pick and choose which situations you want to get involved in. Some statements you should dismiss as just plain irrelevant and address those that have real meaning to you. Otherwise just let it go and focus on what is really important to you. If not you may end up mentally exhausted trying to prove yourself, and for what? You know who you are right? Well OKEY DOKEY THEN.

E & E

[olrono]

<span style="font-family:Times New Roman"> Your Bro. Ron,

[BackToBasics]

Berean I agree with your short but juisy comment . It seems reasonable which is one of the fruits of the spirit I might add.

Shibboleth I also like your comment also .

I saw the footage of the fireman who heard the "boom,boom,boom,boom" .
He said that that the noises he heard "sounded like" exsplosives . He didnt say that they were exsplosives .

A more resonable theory which the pysical evidence does support is that these succession of boom noises that were heard were in fact the seperate floors of the building collapsing onto the floors beneath one after another and so on untill the building was completly collapsed . I imagine that an entire floor of the world trade center collapsing onto another would sound very much like a small exsplosive charge . In support of this idea being true it is interesting that the floors at the lower half of the towers dont even start collapsing untill the dominoe affect of callapsing that starts where the planes entered the towers reaches those lower down floors . In other words the towers dont collapse from the base up but from the top down .

Some will object to this and say why could the government not have planted charges in the building and detonated them in a domino affect to create this affect? Well yes they could have but considering that these dark government forces use controled humans according to the theorists would it not have been easyer to use these one to plant serveral big bombs in the basement and bring down the towers in that way .

Of course if the conspiracy theorists are correct and there were exsplosive charges placed before the planes went in to the towers then it is truly amasing that the planes hit in just the right places in both towers to not set these charges off . Of course the towers were hit if different locations of both towers in which case then the implication would be that these exsplosive charges were put in different locations in each tower in order to not be set off when the planes crashed into them. At this point I recon the conspiracy that the WTC was destoyed by exsplosive charges breaks down and becomes unreasonable . However the argument will be diverted to the idea that the planes were cruise missiles instead . NO wait that was the pentagone . Of course if that dosnt work it was either a smaller plane or hologram projected in the sky by incredible technology that has been hidden from all the common people by the government .

I feel sorry for the relatives who recieved mobile phone calls from loved ones on the planes that went into the towers and the pentagone and a field who know in their minds that it was in fact real . I hope no one who preaches about these conspiracy theorys knocks on their doors .

[Jeshurun]

I for one just can&#39;t get into this debate again. But I will say that they had to be brought down with little collateral damage. If one of those towers had leaned over it might have hit their Federal Reserve Bank, and that would just be unacceptable.

[BackToBasics]

" they had to be brought down with little collateral damage"

To coin an exspresion .`You yourself said it` . Thats from the bible. The operative word after is of course "YET.............. "

[olrono]

Berean I agree with your short but juisy comment . It seems reasonable which is one of the fruits of the spirit I might add.

Shibboleth I also like your comment also .

I saw the footage of the fireman who heard the "boom,boom,boom,boom" .
He said that that the noises he heard "sounded like" exsplosives . He didnt say that they were exsplosives .

A more resonable theory which the pysical evidence does support is that these succession of boom noises that were heard were in fact the seperate floors of the building collapsing onto the floors beneath one after another and so on untill the building was completly collapsed . I imagine that an entire floor of the world trade center collapsing onto another would sound very much like a small exsplosive charge . In support of this idea being true it is interesting that the floors at the lower half of the towers dont even start collapsing untill the dominoe affect of callapsing that starts where the planes entered the towers reaches those lower down floors . In other words the towers dont collapse from the base up but from the top down .

Some will object to this and say why could the government not have planted charges in the building and detonated them in a domino affect to create this affect? Well yes they could have but considering that these dark government forces use controled humans according to the theorists would it not have been easyer to use these one to plant serveral big bombs in the basement and bring down the towers in that way .

Of course if the conspiracy theorists are correct and there were exsplosive charges placed before the planes went in to the towers then it is truly amasing that the planes hit in just the right places in both towers to not set these charges off . Of course the towers were hit if different locations of both towers in which case then the implication would be that these exsplosive charges were put in different locations in each tower in order to not be set off when the planes crashed into them. At this point I recon the conspiracy that the WTC was destoyed by exsplosive charges breaks down and becomes unreasonable . However the argument will be diverted to the idea that the planes were cruise missiles instead . NO wait that was the pentagone . Of course if that dosnt work it was either a smaller plane or hologram projected in the sky by incredible technology that has been hidden from all the common people by the government .

I feel sorry for the relatives who recieved mobile phone calls from loved ones on the planes that went into the towers and the pentagone and a field who know in their minds that it was in fact real . I hope no one who preaches about these conspiracy theorys knocks on their doors .[/b]

Just to set the record straight, I believe you can hit C-4 with a hammer and you couldn’t set it off. Same for fulminate of mercury, which we have learned is a favorite of these guy’s from the reports from Oklahoma.

[Jeshurun]

" they had to be brought down with little collateral damage"

To coin an exspresion .`You yourself said it` . Thats from the bible. The operative word after is of course "YET.............. "[/b]

Ok, I&#39;ll rephrase. Had they not been brought down this way, there would have been collateral damage.

Is that better?

I&#39;m not interested in playing "word ping-pong".

[clay]

To regular contributors, Jeshurun, Nambo, Shib, Olrono, Kenneth, E&E&#39;s, Watchman, Steadfast, and others (sorry if I missed you) All I can say is I am appreciative for the tremendous knowledge, research and connecting-of-the-dots, tying in world events with Scripture and prophecy that otherwise would just be news items. Coming from mainstream JW-dom to understanding these things, and in a relatively short few months, why-man! I&#39;m just reverberating! I&#39;ve no answers that stack up like these explanations (to my thinking). Can&#39;t say I believe and accept all of it verbatem, but it makes more sense than I can come up with! And more than the WTS has offered. Mainstream JW&#39;s in my area look at me like I&#39;m nutty, but I feel extremely blessed/ fortunate to have discovered y&#39;all and this here site. These angles on things has made my ministry more lively, conversations more interesting, really more 2-sided, resulting in using the Bible more. Do have the opinion that a lot of the brothers/sisters that have no clue about this stuff will still be protected through a trusting relationship with Jehovah, and may not need to know the details, but even though I dont know how or where I fit in, I want to know more and get it! Sorry to repeat myself ! Grateful/Glad you all are here! Thanks !
clay

[BackToBasics]

Just to set the record straight, I believe you can hit C-4 with a hammer and you couldn&#39;t set it off. Same for fulminate of mercury, which we have learned is a favorite of these guy&#39;s from the reports from Oklahoma.
</span></span></span>[/b][/quote]
</span></span>
</span>Interesting statement Olrono .

I looked up fulmate of mercury on Wikipedia and it said this that I have quoted below .


"Mercury fulminate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulminate) (Hg(ONC)₂) is a primary explosive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_explosive). It is highly sensitive to friction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction) and shock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_%28mechanics%29). It is mainly used in blasting caps. "

I would think that a compound used as a detonator would be easly exploded by and aircraft blowing up on impact .

I havnt looked up C-4 yet but i shall do .

I would suggest however that even C-4 must have to be detonated somehow . If you are correct and C-4 can be hit by a hammer and yet not exsplode which I guess is possible without knowing to much at this stage I would firstly suggest that a hammer impact is nothing compared to a fully fuel loaded plane crashing at over 400 Mps . Secondly I would also suggest that C-4 needs what is called a detonator of some kind that of course would have exsplosives with in it . I beleive they use what is known as "primary exsplosives" in detonators not unlike Mercury fulminate that would be easly detonated by a plane crash . The reason for this I beleive is due to the fact that in general the more powerful the exsplosive is the harder it is to detonate so a PRIMARY exsplosive is used. In some cases for really powerful exsplosives they may even need a secondry exsplosive or even a third in some cases steping up the power as it were in order to detonate the main charge .

I will let you know what i find regarding C-4 .

Im glad i chucked out my old record player bacause all my old records were the opposite of straight . I replaced them with CDs because as everyone knows they are indistructable .(NOT). :D

[BackToBasics]

I got this info from Wikipedia regarding C4:



HistoryC-4 is a 1960s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960s) improvement on a British World War II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II) development called Nobel 808 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_808) which contained RDX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RDX), mineral oil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_oil), and lecithin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lecithin). C-4 is part of a group of explosives along with C, C2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C2_explosive) and C3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C3_explosive), each containing different amounts of RDX.

[/url]


Composition
C-4 is made up of explosive (http://), plastic binder, plasticizer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasticizer) and, usually, marker or taggant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taggant) chemicals such as 2,3-dimethyl-2,3-dinitrobutane (DMDNB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMDNB)) to help detect the explosive and identify its source. As with many plastic explosives, the explosive material (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosive_material) in C-4 is RDX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclotrimethylene_trinitramine) (also known as cyclonite or cyclotrimethylene trinitramine) which makes up around 91% of the C-4 by weight. The plasticizer is di(2-ethylhexyl) or dioctyl sebacate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dioctyl_sebacate) (5.3%), and the binder is polyisobutylene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyisobutylene) (2.1%). Another plasticizer used is dioctyl adipate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dioctyl_adipate) (DOA). A small amount of SAE 10 non-detergent motor oil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum) (1.6%) is also added. C-4 detonates at about 26,400 fps (8,040 meters per second or 18,000 mph or 28,944 kph).

C-4 is made by combining RDX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RDX) slurry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slurry) with binder dissolved in a solvent. The solvent is then evaporated away and the mixture is dried and filtered. The final material is an off-white solid with a feel similar to modelling clay.




Advantages
A major advantage of C-4 is that it can easily be moulded into any desired shape. C-4 can be pressed into gaps/voids in buildings, bridges, equipment or machinery. Similarly, it can easily be inserted into empty shaped-charge (http://) cases of the type used by special forces. C-4 is also well known for its durability, reliability, and safety. It will not explode even if hit by a bullet, punched, cut, or thrown into a fire. The only reliable method for detonation is via a detonator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detonator) or blasting cap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasting_cap). However, applying pressure in combination with heat can often cause detonation.




International Usage
When the military or a demolition company uses C-4 they normally use 8–10 pounds of C-4 to demolish eight-inch-square steel beams, even though this is more explosive than is required. They do this to make sure that they have accomplished the job successfully.

British Military plastic explosive is referred to as PE4. Like C-4, it is an off-white solid and its explosive characteristics are nearly identical. The only difference between C-4 and PE4 is the type and proportion of plasticizer used.

[url="http://"] (http://)


Trivia Because C-4 burns slowly if simply ignited with a flame, rather than detonated with a primary explosive, soldiers would sometimes use small amounts of C-4 as a fuel for heating rations while on long patrols during the Vietnam War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War) era. While many soldiers were able to use C-4 in this manner safely, there are several anecdotes about soldiers attempting to put out the fire by stomping on it and causing it to detonate. ^{[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-4_%28explosive%29#_note-0)} C-4 is a typical explosive used in many movies, TV shows and video games.
Despite the fact that molding C-4 into shapes introduces air, dirt and other impurities, reducing its power slightly, many movies show C-4 being used in this way.

I imagine that the pressure in combination with heat produced by an aircraft could well detonate C4 directly as well . Of course the exsplosive caps would also I imagine be easyly detonated thus exsploding the main C4 charge as well .

[Sketch]

</span></span>I looked up fulmate of mercury on Wikipedia and it said this that I have quoted below .

"Mercury fulminate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulminate) (Hg(ONC)₂) is a primary explosive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_explosive). It is highly sensitive to friction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction) and shock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_%28mechanics%29). It is mainly used in blasting caps. "[/b]

hmmm.... so, BtB, you "googled" something that showed olrono was wrong... that means he will start a thread about you... and tell everyone how tired he is of "people" googling the things he says... if you second guess him, or ANYone, you&#39;re in the wrong... because everything is about being right here... if you&#39;re not right, you&#39;re wrong, if you&#39;re not FOR us, you&#39;re AGAINST us.... there is NO room here for disagreement...

no agreeing to disagree....

Warmest Christian Regards,
WTBS

[Jeshurun]

This has absolutely nothing to do with having to have our way or having to be right. It has to do with an event that marked the turning point where the seventh head of Revelation has pulled off the FALSE FLAG OPERATION to initiate the final drive toward a NEW WORLD ORDER. The Middle East is on the verge of BLOWING UP. It has NOTHING to do with being right, what we are saying is WAKE UP. We&#39;ve got the Iranian president over there telling the entire Arab world that the MAHDI is coming with JESUS in TWO MONTHS. And all you see on the US news is ANNA NICOLE SMITH.

This is done out of love, and it is not to convince you doubters on this DB, it&#39;s to show the people on the outside who may come in lurking that we are indeed rapidly entering the TIME OF THE END. Have any of you seen Watchman&#39;s video, "Jehovah Himself Has Become King"? If you haven&#39;t, take out 7 minutes to watch it. We&#39;re not dreaming this up.

I went out last night with my baseball team and I felt like I was in the middle of Sodom and Gomorrah. On the way there I was getting cut off left and right by maniacs all over the road. I took my wife and kids out to eat for the first half of the Super Bowl, and we got treated to a big scene right in front of us because some bozo got caught with his girlfriend by his WIFE.

As I said, we do it out of love and a sense of urgency, but there are always those saying "there is peace! there is peace!" when there is NO PEACE. LOOK AT THE SIGNS OF THE TIMES of Matthew 24. World War III is already planned and everything is in place to start. Instead of you guys trying to defend the government&#39;s ridiculous story about 9/11, you really should be preparing your home for possible NUKE BLAST FALLOUT and storing some survival items. Because we don&#39;t know which cities our governments are going to select to NUKE or release BIOLOGICAL poisons.

Now go ahead with your ridicule, I&#39;m waiting.

[eyes&ears]

Thank you Clay,

We are glad you were directed to Watchman&#39;s site. We all need so much encouragement in these times. Jehovah and everyone on this board keep me going. I am very thankful for our little home here. Again, glad to have you on board Clay. May you continue to grow and strengthen your relationship with Jehovah as you continue in your spiritual walk. KEEP HOLDING ON OKEY DOKEY.

I totally agree with what you said here:

"Do have the opinion that a lot of the brothers/sisters that have no clue about this stuff will still be protected through a trusting relationship with Jehovah, and may not need to know the details, but even though I dont know how or where I fit in, I want to know more and get it!"

Jehovah knows those who truly belong to him and he knows their heart condition. To me this is all that matters as far as anyone&#39;s approval is concerned..

2Tim 2:19
Prov 21:2

Love to you and your family.

E & E

[Shibboleth]

Instead of you guys trying to defend the government&#39;s ridiculous story about 9/11, you really should be preparing your home for possible NUKE BLAST FALLOUT. Because we don&#39;t know which cities our governments are going to select to NUKE or release BIOLOGICAL poisons.

Now go ahead with your ridicule, I&#39;m waiting.[/b]


Hey Jesh I won&#39;t ridicule you and I don&#39;t think anyone here will do it either. I think this is a pretty good debate cause we see both sides of a story. You and nambo and olrono see one side and we see another. Now I don&#39;t think I or sketch or B2B are defending the governments assertations about what happened on 9/11. What I do know is that some crazy fanatics hijacked some planes and flew them into buildings to cause mass panic and chaos. Now whether these fanatics were part of a bigger government coverup or scheme we do not know.

What I do know about building design and structure (I have been in the engineering field for almost 20 years now and I know what buildings are made of and understand weaknesses of structure). From my knowledge buildings are made to withstand a high degree of punishment. From high winds to earthquakes. Also buildings, when demolished, are designed to fall straight down and not on it&#39;s side.

Now this doesn&#39;t take into account if the building had been made exactly according to specs. When things get build in the field there are always changes to design and specs. So what looks good on paper doesn&#39;t necessarily mean it will work exactly that way in the field. Now I am not saying that the WTC were built wrong. What I am saying is that I just don&#39;t think these buildings, when they were designed, were put in any kind of stress test that encompassed huge jetliners to fly into them. I don&#39;t think that was done on paper. I do think they did stress test it for smaller planes and helicopters and also seismic and winds and it passed.

I just think that the combination of the planes hitting it and the weakening of the structure from the impact just was to much for those buildings to take.

Now I guess this is my theory since I just haven&#39;t seen any hardcore proof of anything otherwise. So don&#39;t hate me cause of my calculated reasoning. :icon_razz:

[Sketch]

It has NOTHING to do with being right, what we are saying is WAKE UP. We&#39;ve got the Iranian president over there telling the entire Arab world that the MAHDI is coming with JESUS in TWO MONTHS. And all you see on the US news is ANNA NICOLE SMITH.[/b]

WHERE in this particular THREAD have ANYONE said ANYTHING about IRAN?? This thread was initially about Fact and Theory - with a few unprovoked barbs thrown in for effect - as I havent posted anything on this DB for almost a week.


...it is not to convince you doubters on this DB, it&#39;s to show the people on the outside who may come in lurking that we are indeed rapidly entering the TIME OF THE END.[/b]

WHO has EVER second-guessed that we are in the time of the END??


Now go ahead with your ridicule, I&#39;m waiting.[/b]

so QUESTIONING the conspiracy theorists is now ridicule? This whole thread has "ridicule" written all over it... and yet, when I step in to defend MY position, its called "ridicule"... I never even said that the 9-11 conspiracy wasn&#39;t POSSIBLE... i simply said it wasn&#39;t 100% PROBABLE. Just because someone believes something, doesn&#39;t make it a FACT. Most of us here make it a point to question the WTS, and the men behind it... but some here draw the line at questioning OURSELVES.... now, Isn&#39;t THAT the SAME problem the WTS has???

[Jeshurun]

Hi Shib

You or anyone on this board would never be the object of hate on my part. I reserve that for Satan and his minions (I think I&#39;m allowed to hate them, I hope). You obviously haven&#39;t seen the testimony of the men who designed the buildings, that they took into account the biggest plane at the time, a Boeing 707, hitting them in MULTIPLE places. For that reason they were designed like a screen, or mosquito netting, where if you punctured it in several places it would still support itself. On top of that, the steel core was HUGE and should have survived any pancake collapsing of the floors.

How is it that cars were melted almost a mile away? And how about the building across the street that was hit and severely damaged by some debris, and ITS OWN severed beams were MELTED? How does anyone explain that? And the question still persists, building 7 was hit by NOTHING and fell down perfectly into its own footprint, on DEMAND by its OWNER!

How about the skyscaper in Madrid that burned from top to bottom like a torch for 36 HOURS and was still standing and supporting a huge crane on its roof after the fire was out? BETTER STEEL? The WTC steel was certified TWICE AS STRONG as law says is necessary.

I spent MONTHS looking into all aspects of 9/11, I put my time in, I don&#39;t just talk from ignorance.

The buildings turned to POWDER. POWDER! Just take some time and watch closely the collapse videos. The "squibs" or smoke puffs were clearly shooting out the sides 10 to 20 floors BELOW where it was "pancaking", in SEQUENCE all the way down. The proof is is the videos, the evidence is everywhere. Steel melts at 3000 degrees F. Those fires never reached above 800 F. If it were hotter than that, the firemen at the scene and the people gathered together inside the impact holes would have been incinerated. And contrary to what someone said here, the black smoke indicates an OXYGEN STARVED FIRE, and the firemen confirmed that when they said they only needed two hoses to knock them out.

I won&#39;t exhaust myself on this topic anymore, so don&#39;t worry. Please, anyone who wants to dabate this, do your homework first, I certainly have not come in unprepared.

[Kenneth]

but even though I dont know how or where I fit in,[/b]

Clay this is the sixty four thousand dollar question where we fit in. Since coming to this knowledge I have no Idea. Each member of the board has his or her speciality or interest to discuses. I wouldn&#39;t worry where you fit in remember Paul&#39;s words to the Ephesians "some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers" where do we fit into the arrangement? My answer to that is be what ever you can to your brother and sister in the congregation. Be what ever you can be here on the discussion board. In due time it will become clear to all.


Kenneth

[Shibboleth]

Jesh,
Design is one thing. What happens out in the field is another.

Take for instance the Big Dig in Boston. Designed very well. But what happened when the GC (General Contractor) took over the job? They cut corners and used insufficient materials. And now it has cracks and leaks and sections were falling apart.

Could that same scenario have happened to the WTC? Yes. We don&#39;t know if the GC cut corners when they built those building, but if they had replaced just one item with an inferior one just to cut costs or make a buck then you have a catastrophe waiting to happen.

I have seen the greed and money wasting on all levels of construction from small homes to big facilities and oil rigs.

We can go round and round and research to our little hearts content, but speculations aside, the buildings still came down. They were still destroyed and it was a turning point in the U.S. history. Whether it was planes themselves or if there were bombs being used does not matter. What matters is that our world ahs changed dramtically since that day. It was indeed a turning point in history.

[James]

Hi Shib

You or anyone on this board would never be the object of hate on my part. I reserve that for Satan and his minions (I think I&#39;m allowed to hate them, I hope). You obviously haven&#39;t seen the testimony of the men who designed the buildings, that they took into account the biggest plane at the time, a Boeing 707, hitting them in MULTIPLE places. For that reason they were designed like a screen, or mosquito netting, where if you punctured it in several places it would still support itself. On top of that, the steel core was HUGE and should have survived any pancake collapsing of the floors.

How is it that cars were melted almost a mile away? And how about the building across the street that was hit and severely damaged by some debris, and ITS OWN severed beams were MELTED? How does anyone explain that? And the question still persists, building 7 was hit by NOTHING and fell down perfectly into its own footprint, on DEMAND by its OWNER!

How about the skyscaper in Madrid that burned from top to bottom like a torch for 36 HOURS and was still standing and supporting a huge crane on its roof after the fire was out? BETTER STEEL? The WTC steel was certified TWICE AS STRONG as law says is necessary.

I spent MONTHS looking into all aspects of 9/11, I put my time in, I don&#39;t just talk from ignorance.

The buildings turned to POWDER. POWDER! Just take some time and watch closely the collapse videos. The "squibs" or smoke puffs were clearly shooting out the sides 10 to 20 floors BELOW where it was "pancaking", in SEQUENCE all the way down. The proof is is the videos, the evidence is everywhere. Steel melts at 3000 degrees F. Those fires never reached above 800 F. If it were hotter than that, the firemen at the scene and the people gathered together inside the impact holes would have been incinerated. And contrary to what someone said here, the black smoke indicates an OXYGEN STARVED FIRE, and the firemen confirmed that when they said they only needed two hoses to knock them out.

I won&#39;t exhaust myself on this topic anymore, so don&#39;t worry. Please, anyone who wants to dabate this, do your homework first, I certainly have not come in unprepared.[/b]


Jeshurun,

I, for one, apreciate your comments and your depth of knowledge on the WTC and other conspiracies. I just wanted to say thanks and keep on keeping on!!


James

[Sketch]

And contrary to what someone said here, the black smoke indicates an OXYGEN STARVED FIRE, and the firemen confirmed that when they said they only needed two hoses to knock them out.[/b]

I dont know if this is in reference to one of my posts, but what i said was that the heavy black smoke was indicative of high HEAT and heavy FUMES... a fire CAN be at its most dangerous when its starved of oxygen... I&#39;ve been a volunteer firefighter/EMT for almost 13 years now in New York and Maryland. I have also been a HazMat technician since 2002. So i have first hand knowledge of a few of the issues involved... again, I never said it wasn&#39;t a conspiracy.... just that it wasn&#39;t a FACT as it has not been proven.



Please, anyone who wants to dabate this, do your homework first, I certainly have not come in unprepared.[/b]

Okay, so what experience do YOU have with fires? tell me what a case of arosol cans sounds like when they all bleve at once or how about a rail car?... do you know anything about blast injuries, or pressure waves? and you think a FEW MONTHS of research is all it takes? you call me unprepared and then you talk about ridicule? You state that this isn&#39;t about "being right", yet you denounce ANYONE who states otherwise. you want to bring it? then bring it.

the truth will stand up to ANY questioning... the trick is knowing what the truth is..

[BackToBasics]

Sketch your exsperiance is very useful . As Christians we should be open to ones like him because out of any of us he would have a much higher possibility of being correct in what he says on these topics .

I dont think that it will be faith and the downporing of holy spirit that will be critical in saving good people in the time of the end and not a knowledge of conspiracy theory born from mankind. As if Jehovah would kill people for being fooled into taking the mark of the beast . It will be a fully conscious decision for it to be just of God to destroy such ones .

If you have any more information on these matters Sketch I would like to here it .

[olrono]

<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>When ever I start an investigation, I always look for the “archeries heel”, (spelling?) or the weakest link. Question, after every airliner crash, the government has a team that goes out after every piece of debris from the accident site. Then they take it all to a big hanger in Washington D.C. and re construct the entire craft on the ground to try to determine what caused the tragedy. Show me this evidence with the plane that hit the Pentagon!

[DoubtingThomas]

I really enjoy reading both sides of this 9-11 "Fact or Theory" Conspiracy debate.

But, since we all here at this DB know the outcome of Bible prophecy - that the Anglo-American dyad is soon to crash and burn, and be replaced by the UN as the final World power - WHY DOES IT MATTER ANYWAY?

Could someone please answer me that question , just for my own satsifaction as to what the PURPOSE of this thread is.

Isn&#39;t that what we should warn people of (Bible prophecy), Not the corruption of the governement?

What good does it do anyone to know of the corruption of the US (most non-JW citizens I am around realize that too) when it is soon to be destroyed anyway. The Bible does not tell us to stock pile weapons or arms does it? And if we did, we aren&#39;t strong enough to fight against the mechanations of Satan are we? So isn&#39;t it a useless point to debate if the governement is corrupt and was behind 9-11 or not? They (Illuminati) are soon going to be eliminated and replaced by the fiercest beast of all, the UN. That is what we should be warning others of. Our message as Christian Ministers should be from the Word of God.

[olrono]

You all watch the news don’t you? I mean all the ones saying “we don’t need to be aware of this stuff to get into the kingdom,” well, you don’t have to watch the news ether, and you don’t need a television, radio, newspaper anything other then your Bible, yes or no? Well if I had to bet on it, I would guess you guys are addicted to the TV! When we watch the news, we are seeking the truth and we won’t be fooled in the lies we get, so who is really wasting their time???

[Shibboleth]

Hey olrono you meant Achilles Heel correct? heh



I watch the news cause Jesus said to watch for the things that lead up to his presence. I use it as a guide through the end times. I don&#39;t obsess about the news (some of my friends may say otherwise heh).

[olrono]

To regular contributors, Jeshurun, Nambo, Shib, Olrono, Kenneth, E&E&#39;s, Watchman, Steadfast, and others (sorry if I missed you) All I can say is I am appreciative for the tremendous knowledge, research and connecting-of-the-dots, tying in world events with Scripture and prophecy that otherwise would just be news items. Coming from mainstream JW-dom to understanding these things, and in a relatively short few months, why-man! I&#39;m just reverberating! I&#39;ve no answers that stack up like these explanations (to my thinking). Can&#39;t say I believe and accept all of it verbatem, but it makes more sense than I can come up with! And more than the WTS has offered. Mainstream JW&#39;s in my area look at me like I&#39;m nutty, but I feel extremely blessed/ fortunate to have discovered y&#39;all and this here site. These angles on things has made my ministry more lively, conversations more interesting, really more 2-sided, resulting in using the Bible more. Do have the opinion that a lot of the brothers/sisters that have no clue about this stuff will still be protected through a trusting relationship with Jehovah, and may not need to know the details, but even though I dont know how or where I fit in, I want to know more and get it! Sorry to repeat myself ! Grateful/Glad you all are here! Thanks !
clay[/b]
Thank you Clay, it is the same for me too! Now Satan is more real, he is not just this invisible spirit we can’t see for we see his “organization” now. And this enforces our belief in Jehovah’s Organization is real too and adds urgency to our ministry.

[Nambo]

Hi and Love to you all!

More things I would like to add, skeptics are picking on one fact and giving quite logical and plausible alltenatives to each "fact".

But those of us who have searched for and looked at so many "facts", so many pieces of the jigsaw, can see a bigg pattern or picture that even less looks like the official version.

Hers another "fact" regarding the "sounds of explositions".

The last man out of the building was the Janitor William Rodriguez who has been hailed the biggest hero of the day becuase he went back in time after time to help the fireman reach areas they had no idea how to get to, and he had the master key.
He is creidted with having saved hundres of lives and they are looking at making a movie of him.
You might have seen him on the TV being interviewed.

Now his main aim in life at the moment appears to be trying to get everyone to see the evidence that he has, on account of being there, that the 911 commision report refuses to acknowledge.

He states that before, I will repeat that, before, any planes hit either of the buildings, there where explositions in the basement that he claims where to weaken the structure ready for the planes to hit.

He describes seeing great destruction and huge metal doors twisted like foil, anybody thats actually intersted can google him to read his statements.

Is it a fact?, its certainly a fact that he says this, is he lying?, why?

As for bringing in the emotional context of the families of the victims, you might be willing to find the 911 truth campiagn done by half of victims families who refused the hush money and want the truth to come out, who are disgusted that they percieve that not only did the government do this, but that the government then used the names of thier murdered Love ones in order to incite a Nation to war.

Try telling them that they are Madmen for searching for facts and beliving the outcome they see.

[Berean]

Is it a fact?, its certainly a fact that he says this, is he lying?, why?[/b]
Why does anyone lie? Fifteen minutes of fame make some people do strange things. There was, for instance, the guy who wrote a bunch of diaries that were supposedly written by Hitler. It fooled many reputable scientists until he came clean. For this reason alone, you cannot take anything at face value, but you have to compare testimonies with each other. If 999 out of 1,000 people would say the same thing and 1 would say something else, chances are the 999 are telling the truth. Of course this is not always true, but it&#39;s very important to realize that people will tell a lie for the strangest of reasons, and only Jehovah can look into people&#39;s hearts to see if they are really telling the truth.

[Nambo]

<div class='quotemain'>Is it a fact?, its certainly a fact that he says this, is he lying?, why?[/b]
Why does anyone lie? Fifteen minutes of fame make some people do strange things. There was, for instance, the guy who wrote a bunch of diaries that were supposedly written by Hitler. It fooled many reputable scientists until he came clean. For this reason alone, you cannot take anything at face value, but you have to compare testimonies with each other. If 999 out of 1,000 people would say the same thing and 1 would say something else, chances are the 999 are telling the truth. Of course this is not always true, but it&#39;s very important to realize that people will tell a lie for the strangest of reasons, and only Jehovah can look into people&#39;s hearts to see if they are really telling the truth.
[/b][/quote]

Generally a good point B, but in this instance, William Rodriguez is recieving far more than 15 minutes of fame, he is being portrayed as a hero!, they are making a film about him!, it was only yesterday I saw a TV interview where he was being lauded for his heroic acts.
At the end of the interview he then spoils his image in the eyes of many when he starts spouting his "riduculous conspiracy theories", why would he do that?, surely that would be taining the 15 minutes of fame he allready has?

You can probably find another 998 that say similar things about 911 if you looked.

I only hope that others who read this thread might have thier curiousity piqued enough to search for themselves, recognise decipet now, and be ready to reject deciept in the future when it really matters.

[Shibboleth]

Hey Nambo,

I do appreciate the effort that you put into looking into things. To me personally it doesn&#39;t matter if the government did do a coverup or if they are telling the truth about the whole matter. In the end they are still doing what Satan wants, cloud people&#39;s minds. I don&#39;t have any more or any less faith in the government cause I believe in Jehovah&#39;s government and that He will wipe every tear from our eyes.

In the end it will be Jehovah who outs these governments as being pawns of Satan to the whole world.

So who am I to believe one magician over another magician? (For those who didn&#39;t know that Rodriguez is an Illusionist/Magician)

[olrono]

Hey olrono you meant Achilles Heel correct? heh



I watch the news cause Jesus said to watch for the things that lead up to his presence. I use it as a guide through the end times. I don&#39;t obsess about the news (some of my friends may say otherwise heh).[/b]


Thanks Shib! I have a good computer that has 5000 mega whatever’s and it takes all of them to correct my spelling, as a matter of fact I have to shut down all other programs to let the thing work ! When you have been driving as long as I, you never really have to write anyone, all I need to know how to read is “Low Bridge” !

[Jeshurun]

Okay, so what experience do YOU have with fires? tell me what a case of arosol cans sounds like when they all bleve at once or how about a rail car?... do you know anything about blast injuries, or pressure waves? and you think a FEW MONTHS of research is all it takes? you call me unprepared and then you talk about ridicule? You state that this isn&#39;t about "being right", yet you denounce ANYONE who states otherwise. you want to bring it? then bring it.

the truth will stand up to ANY questioning... the trick is knowing what the truth is..[/b]

Sketch, I don&#39;t know why you took the whole post so personally. And you are right, I am no expert on these things, but I&#39;ve analyzed the findings and testimony of countless experts, and those saying that the government&#39;s story is impossible, far outnumber those that are supporting the government&#39;s story. The ones telling the truth are those whose findings stand up to scrutiny and the basic laws of physics.

One thing that&#39;s very important to note is that out of the few scientists who support the government&#39;s story, many only did so after initially going against it, but then changed their tune for some ($$$$) reason.

Now if someone explains and demonstrates and proves that even if the collapses were caused by the weakened structures, it is physically impossible for it to happen at free fall speed. And there were all kinds of calculations done, and they were extremely liberal in their calculations in that they even eliminated the furnishings, and they still could not get the fastest possible collapse time under 50 seconds. Problem is they collapsed in under 10 seconds, nearly free fall speed. It is just not possible unless there were explosives involved.

Just another point, the north tower was hit on it&#39;s north side, it was the first tower hit. But when it began to collapse, the top of the building leaned to the SOUTH, where there was very minimal damage to the outer wall. So if the weakened structure on the outer wall initiated the collapse, the top portion should have leaned north before crushing the floors underneath, does that make sense?

[Sketch]

Sketch, I don&#39;t know why you took the whole post so personally.[/b]

you mean other than implying that I&#39;m not prepared to discuss the issue, or that I don&#39;t have a clue as to what I&#39;m talking about? or the any number of times that people jumped on me because I suggested that the 9-11 conspiracy theory was just a theory, and may or may NOT be true?

It seems to me that a number of people here don&#39;t actually READ the posts... they only wait to talk... Have I EVER ONCE said that the 9-11 conspiracy was bogus? No. not ONCE. BUT, I DO think that focusing on conspiracy theories takes you away from the more important things in life...


I even brought up the "Loose Change" movie to encourage the discussion... but people like yourself, Nambo and especially Olrono scream "bloody murder" if someone thinks differently or wants to get more ideas before making a decision. There are a few people here that feel the same way I do, I am just make my words more upfront about the issue when people tell me I don&#39;t know what I&#39;m talking about... effectively calling me a liar, and THAT, I take personally.



...but I&#39;ve analyzed the findings and testimony of countless experts, and those saying that the government&#39;s story is impossible, far outnumber those that are supporting the government&#39;s story. The ones telling the truth are those whose findings stand up to scrutiny and the basic laws of physics.[/b]


and you know what? thats GREAT! but you&#39;re opinions are YOUR OPINIONS. Just because you or Olrono have done your research, that refutes someone ELSE&#39;S research, doesn&#39;t make you right and the other guy wrong. what it SHOULD do is bring it up for discussion/debate, and thats not whats happening - certainly not in a christain way. what I DO care about is being brow-beaten because I don&#39;t believe something just because someone tells me to. Thats one reason I no longer go to the meetings...



One thing that&#39;s very important to note is that out of the few scientists who support the government&#39;s story, many only did so after initially going against it, but then changed their tune for some ($) reason.[/b]

and you can prove that, right? you have receipts and bank records? you do know "Assume" means, right? it means to make an ASS out of U and ME. Look, there are a lot of issues, take for instance, (listen up Nambo), the "reports" of bombs going off... can you tell me the difference between a small propane tank exploding (bleve), and a bomb? without seeing it? I certainly can&#39;t. especially in the chaos of a house fire, let alone the chaos of a highrise fire with thousands of panicky people coming towards me... the truth is that no one knows what those sounds were... maybe they were propane tanks, maybe they were bombs - and no one can say for sure... and no one is going to tell me that they KNOW its a bomb and still have me take them seriously. They "know" its a bomb, because thats what they want to believe... and thats fine... but don&#39;t chastise me for thinking otherwise.



Problem is they collapsed in under 10 seconds, nearly free fall speed. It is just not possible unless there were explosives involved.[/b]

again, thats fine... but let me make my own decision about it. let ME do the research. don&#39;t tell me what to believe and what not to.

[Jeshurun]

Once again Sketch, for some reason you get the idea that every word is directed at you. This is the DB, not your PM box. If it were your PM box, then yeah, it&#39;s personal. Just for the record, the things I wrote in that post somewhere up there about the oxygen starved fires, yes I knew you said it, but there was no need to mention names, and everything else in that post had nothing to do with you. Now as far as the black smoke thing, I can prove that right now outside my front door with a stack of paper and a match, so yeah, it bothered me.

Yes I agree that sometimes we get emotional and overzealous, but we only do it out of love. There&#39;s no other motive and it has nothing to do with mind control. We&#39;re trying to expose lies, that&#39;s all. And according to the Bible, this entire world we live in is completely dominated by lies.

[Sketch]

This is the DB, not your PM box.[/b]

Then why are you putting THIS on the DB? why not just PM me? you address me on this DB, I will reply on this DB


...there was no need to mention names...[/b]

why not? I don&#39;t mince words. I don&#39;t drop hints. I&#39;m not very PC.


Now as far as the black smoke thing, I can prove that right now outside my front door with a stack of paper and a match, so yeah, it bothered me.[/b]

then you obviously know that i said nothing about OXYGEN in that POST! ... do I need to repost it here? actually, if you can create a low/no o2 scenario fire, without setting your house on fire, an without creating a flashover, I&#39;d love to see it... the county i live in built a $5 million facility to recreate that kind of situation... and when people tell me I don&#39;t know what I&#39;m talking about, and then accuse ME of ridiculing THEM, THEN it IS personal and the DB needs to see WHO these people are...


Yes I agree that sometimes we get emotional and overzealous, but we only do it out of love.... We&#39;re trying to expose lies, that&#39;s all.[/b]

Thats Great! we ALL appreciate it - even I do - but put the facts on the table and let us decide for OURSELVES! don&#39;t try to slant it with more words and accusations.

[Berean]

I think the problem with the &#39;black smoke argument&#39; and other arguments is that:
1) they seem to be selectively applied
2) they seem to be invented especially for 9/11

Case in point: if you look online for resources discussing what exactly determines the colour of smoke, you&#39;ll find that on sites that do not deal with 9/11 conspiracy sites (meaning, sites that can be considered neutral, like an article on Slate magazine you can find when you type in black smoke fire in Google), it is said that black smoke is caused by temperature (hot fire = black smoke, less hot fire = white smoke). Of course the type of fuel also plays a part, but I do not think black smoke necessarily indicates a lack of oxygen, nor does a lack of oxygen always produce black smoke (when you deprive a candle of oxygen for instance, you&#39;ll notice the smoke that comes off it is white, or gray at most, but certainly not black).

[Shibboleth]

Now as far as the black smoke thing, I can prove that right now outside my front door with a stack of paper and a match, so yeah, it bothered me.[/b]


It may be white smoke if you just use paper, but once you start throwing chemicals and paint and pipes and plastic and other elements into a fire what color is it? I have seen some pretty big fires before. There was one up the street from where I lived that was a propane tank facility and it was the blackest smoke I had ever seen. There was no way that it was oxygen starved cause it was outside with a small wind.

Here is a pic of a propane tank fire at a building.

http://www.lvrj.com/lvrj_home/2001/Jun-29-Fri-2001/photos/news.jpg

[Jeshurun]

OK Shib, now let&#39;s compare the WTC fire with these pictures, ok?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/4262509.stm

[Shibboleth]

OK Shib, now let&#39;s compare the WTC fire with these pictures, ok?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/4262509.stm[/b]


All I was saying is you just can&#39;t compare fires. Each fire is different none are exactly the same. Every fire burns differently. I have personally seen only a few fires up close. Brush fires, grass fires and I have seen some chemical/gas fires and a car fire. They all burned differently. Some had white smoke. Some had grey and some had black smoke.

In the end I will reiterate what I have been saying all along is that it doesn&#39;t really matter who did what. the buildings still came done. I still don&#39;t believe in the governments cause I believe in God&#39;s government. If there was a conspiracy - fine. Then so be it. It will not change my view at all that God is going to come in and take care of all the lying and deceitful people. Seriuosly it&#39;s been ingrained in my mind to stay seperate from human governments and to rely on Jehovah&#39;s government. It&#39;s what JW&#39;s all over the world hope in.

[Nambo]

Heres something for you guys who like to know the bigger picture.
Seems the BBC are coming in for some accusations that they where part of "the 911 plot" as they reported the 47 storey World Trade centre building 7 had aslo fallen down......20 minutes before it actually did!

Heres a quote from Alex Jones site, " An astounding video uncovered from the archives today shows the BBC reporting on the collapse of WTC Building 7 over twenty minutes before it fell at 5:20pm on the afternoon of 9/11. The incredible footage shows BBC reporter Jane Standley talking about the collapse of the Salomon Brothers Building while it remains standing in the live shot behind her head.

Minutes before the actual collapse of the building is due, the feed to the reporter mysteriously dies."

_____________________________

As an aside,Whilst smoke is being discussed here, I expect you have all seen the 5 frames the FBI released of "the plane" hitting the pentagon, the 5 frames in which you do not actually see a plane, but you do see the white smoke trail it leaves.

Well, I used to be an Air Mechanic and would like to point out that gas turbine engines do not leave a visible exhaust at ground level, go spend a day at the airport if you dont belive me, the best you will see is a shimmering heat haze.

What does leave a white smoke trail though is rockets, maybe the sort of rocket that could penetrate 3 rings of the reinforced concrete of the Pentagon.

[olrono]

Heres something for you guys who like to know the bigger picture.
Seems the BBC are coming in for some accusations that they where part of "the 911 plot" as they reported the 47 storey World Trade centre building 7 had aslo fallen down......20 minutes before it actually did!

Heres a quote from Alex Jones site, " An astounding video uncovered from the archives today shows the BBC reporting on the collapse of WTC Building 7 over twenty minutes before it fell at 5:20pm on the afternoon of 9/11. The incredible footage shows BBC reporter Jane Standley talking about the collapse of the Salomon Brothers Building while it remains standing in the live shot behind her head.

Minutes before the actual collapse of the building is due, the feed to the reporter mysteriously dies."

_____________________________

As an aside,Whilst smoke is being discussed here, I expect you have all seen the 5 frames the FBI released of "the plane" hitting the pentagon, the 5 frames in which you do not actually see a plane, but you do see the white smoke trail it leaves.

Well, I used to be an Air Mechanic and would like to point out that gas turbine engines do not leave a visible exhaust at ground level, go spend a day at the airport if you dont belive me, the best you will see is a shimmering heat haze.

What does leave a white smoke trail though is rockets, maybe the sort of rocket that could penetrate 3 rings of the reinforced concrete of the Pentagon.[/b]
You are right about the exhaust trail, but I don’t think anyone wants to shake their “comfort zone” to contemplate the ramifications of you being right. Not to worry though, the GT will fix that!

[Redpill]

Originally posted by Jeshurun
Steel melts at 3000 degrees F. Those fires never reached above 800 F.
A few points/questions (for anyone who&#39;d like to respond):

1. Would the steel actually have to reach its melting point for the building to collapse, or just heat to a temperature where it was sufficiently weakened to do so? Would it have lost any appreciable strength at say, 1000 or 1500 degrees?

2. 800 degrees seems like a really low estimate for the temperature of burning jet fuel. From my basic understanding, 500 degrees (http://www.dnr.state.md.us/forests/otheragencies/fire.html) is about the MINIMUM required for ignition of dry grass, and vehicle exhaust systems can reach 1,000. This web site (http://www.primitiveways.com/fire_Baugh.html) claims that if you rub sticks together to start a fire, your tinder has to reach about 800 degrees to have a chance of lighting. So to claim that raging inferno was comparable to a vehicle exhaust or a grass fire seems like a stretch.

3. Does smoke color always indicate fire temperature? If so, why? Isn&#39;t smoke color mostly determined by what is burning, and thus what particles actually make up the smoke?

Thanks!

[Jeshurun]

Hello Redpill

The visual evidence of the fire shows that a number of people were alive and well while inside the damaged areas of the buildings and their hair was not even singed. Most of the fuel was consumed within the first couple of minutes after the impact. The fact that people survived and that firemen were on the scene is what proves that the fires were nowhere near as hot as some people claim.

I was really hoping that we could stop debating this point, because this is only one small issue compared to the whole 9/11 event. The fact of the matter is that the government lied, and here is the proof:



More Ground Zero Heroes On The Record: Building 7 Was Deliberately Brought Down
Testimony of multiple rescue personnel that they were told Building 7 was going to be imploded means FEMA, NIST, Silverstein Properties and federal government all lied, revelations demand immediate grand jury inquiry into insurance fraud, vindicates call for new independent 9/11 investigation <div align="left">Paul Joseph Watson & Alex Jones
Prison Planet
Friday, February 9, 2007

Two more ground zero emergency rescue personnel are on the record as stating they were told Building 7 was going to be brought down on 9/11 hours before its symmetrical implosion, completely contradicting the official explanation of accidental collapse.

The new revelations provoke urgent questions about how a building was rigged with explosives within hours when such a process normally takes weeks or months and why the decision was taken to demolish the building amidst the chaos of the situation on that day.

Yesterday we reported on the testimony of an anonymous EMT named Mike who told Loose Change producer Dylan Avery that hundreds of emergency rescue personnel were told over bullhorns that Building 7, a 47 story skyscraper adjacent the twin towers that was not hit by a plane yet imploded symmetrically later in the afternoon on 9/11, was about to be "pulled" and that a 20 second radio countdown preceded its collapse.

Shortly after this article was released we uncovered more astounding testimony of ground zero rescue workers who are fully public and on the record in repeating the same claims, that Building 7 was brought down deliberately and that its collapse was not accidental as the government claims.

Indira Singh was a volunteer civilian Emergency Medical Technician at the World Trade Center on September 11th. She was a Senior Consultant for JP Morgan Chase in Information Technology and Risk Management. Singh was responsible for setting up triage sites for the seriously injured and walking wounded. These sites were closed down and consolidated one by one as the day wore on. Appearing on the Pacifica show Guns and Butter, Singh describes her experience to host Bonnie Faulkner. Click here to listen with commentary by Alex Jones.

SINGH: "After midday on 9/11 we had to evacuate that because they told us Building 7 was coming down. If you had been there, not being able to see very much just flames everywhere and smoke - it is entirely possible - I do believe that they brought Building 7 down because I heard that they were going to bring it down because it was unstable because of the collateral damage. That I don&#39;t know I can&#39;t attest to the validity of that all I can attest to is that by noon or one o&#39;clock they told us we need to move from that triage site up to Pace University a little further away because Building 7 was going to come down or be brought down."

HOST: "Did they actually use the word "brought down" and who was it that was telling you this?"

SINGH: "The fire department. And they did use the words &#39;we&#39;re gonna have to bring it down&#39; and for us there observing the nature of the devastation it made total sense to us that this was indeed a possibility, given the subsequent controversy over it I don&#39;t know."

As is discussed elsewhere in this article, the feasibility and logic of bringing the building down on 9/11 is up for debate, but what is not debatable is the fact that Silverstein Properties, NIST, FEMA and the federal government have all knowingly lied in claiming in official reports that the building came down solely as a result of damage from the towers and that the collapse of the building was not aided by means of intentionally placed explosives.

The following video from CNN clearly shows firefighters and police telling the public to get back because Building 7 was about to come down and in the words of the cameraman was about to "blow up."

(Video link deleted)

Former Air Force Special Operations for Search and Rescue, Kevin McPadden traveled to ground zero completely of his own accord and spent the next four days searching through the rubble and nearby buildings for survivors.

On September 9 2006, McPadden told an audience at the Community Church in New York City how while he was stationed in a Red Cross operations center, he was told that Building 7 was going to be brought down. Click here for the audio.

McPADDEN: "They said you know you&#39;ve got to stay behind this line because they&#39;re thinking about taking this building down, they&#39;re not sure if it&#39;s stable or not, so they were holding a line off because they had knowledge that something was gonna happen. Well, they pushed us back a little bit....a couple of minutes later they started coming down....people started coming back out to the street, I watched five New York City buses jam packed with people wanting to do search and rescue head down there towards Building 7 - people walk out into the middle of the street to see these people off, like bon voyage and right then Building 7 came down."

McPadden then describes the scene as a "stampede" as people ran over each other in their attempts to flee.

The testimony of these individuals meshes with others in confirming that Building 7 was deliberately brought down on the day of 9/11, a fact that eviscerates official investigations into Building 7 as nothing more than part of an orchestrated cover-up.

In February of 2002 Silverstein Properties won $861 million from Industrial Risk Insurers to rebuild on the site of WTC 7. Silverstein Properties&#39; estimated investment in WTC 7 was $386 million. This building&#39;s collapse alone resulted in a payout of nearly $500 million, based on the contention that it was an unforeseen accidental event.



A cursory insight into professional building demolition tells us that experts are required to spend weeks and months planning the demolition of any building, ensuring that the explosives are placed in exactly the right spots, that the collapse will not impact surrounding buildings, and that a myriad of sufficient safety procedures are followed.

To imagine that demolition experts could rig such a huge building amidst the chaos of the day, unsure of whether further attacks were coming, in a matter of hours and bring the building down neatly in its own footprint without afflicting major damage to adjacent buildings is beyond belief.

Even if one entertains the notion that this is within the realm of possibility, the fact is that the federal government, FEMA and NIST and Silverstein Properties are all knowingly lying in claiming that the building collapsed by accident as a result of burning debris from the twin towers.

Now it is established that they lied about Building 7, how can we trust their often changing explanations of the collapse of the twin towers, especially considering the dozens and dozens of eyewitnesses who have gone on the record to report the fact that explosives were seen and heard on all levels of both towers, including underground?

We are being asked to put our faith in either the federal government, who deliberately lied about 9/11 in the very days after the attack in telling emergency workers and firemen that the toxic air was safe to breathe, or the emergency workers and other rescue heroes who risked their lives and are still suffering the consequences of their actions.

This testimony demands an immediate grand jury inquiry into both monolithic insurance fraud, potential manslaughter, and a complete re-appraisal and re-investigation into everything else that happened on 9/11 in an effort to discover what else the government lied about concerning the events of that day and its aftermath.

</div>

[Sketch]

3. Does smoke color always indicate fire temperature? If so, why? Isn&#39;t smoke color mostly determined by what is burning, and thus what particles actually make up the smoke? Thanks![/b]

Hey redpill,

your 3rd question is the only one I can answer without a doubt, and that is no, smoke does not always indicate how hot a fire is... or even if there IS a fire... you need three things to have a fire... Heat, "fuel", and an ignition source. o2 is usually part the "fuel" or material thats burning - but not always... you don&#39;t need o2 to smoke something... just for fire. smoke color usually indicates what is burning, i.e. ink, oil, etc... would be black as it already still has a lot of carbon depostits, vs. something like phosphorous, which can burn white and then change to gray (depending on what happens when you hit it with water - Water + phosphorous = bad). Anything outside of the black/white areas, like green or blue, purple even... usually means chemicals - Hazmat... but I&#39;ve also seen black smoke thats hazmat too... either way, smoke is bad no matter what color it is...

The best indicator of how HOT a fire is / was is the degree of disintegration of the material around the core - usually where the fire starts. you can have a scorching, or you can have complete destruction down to a flaky/ashy carbon based soot... it all depends on the material that burned and if there accelerants involved (i.e. gas, alcohol, turpintine, etc...). something may burn at 500 degrees, but if you add kerosene, it will burn a little higher. add Gas, and the temp goes up. add gas and alcohol, and you&#39;ve got a good one - as long as there is something there to burn... but take those accelerants away, or they burn off, your temps go back down... </span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></span>

[Sketch]

The visual evidence of the fire shows that a number of people were alive and well while inside the damaged areas of the buildings and their hair was not even singed. Most of the fuel was consumed within the first couple of minutes after the impact. The fact that people survived and that firemen were on the scene is what proves that the fires were nowhere near as hot as some people claim.[/b]

okay, I&#39;m a FF and an EMT - with more than a few years experience... yet you don&#39;t believe what I have to say... you&#39;re listening to all the other hearsay, but not even CONSIDERING what I have to say - even if I may agree with you on some things.... classic sign of believing what you WANT to believe....


I was really hoping that we could stop debating this point, because this is only one small issue compared to the whole 9/11 event. The fact of the matter is that the government lied, and here is the proof:[/b]

you just can&#39;t accept the idea that someone may not believe what you do, can you? Redpill was just asking a question. is that STILL not allowed with you? aside from the fact that you cite a source on "prison planet" which is absolutely slanted. you don&#39;t exactly get a balanced view there do you... but then again, what else do I expect from you... build a bridge and get over it.

[Sketch]

OK Shib, now let&#39;s compare the WTC fire with these pictures, ok?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/4262509.stm[/b]


Let me get this straight... you&#39;re comparing this fire, started by a short circuit to the WTC started by [?] that included a structural intrusion? be it planes or bombs, the WTC&#39;s core was weakened by something... it was MORE than a fire like the one you&#39;re showing... the structural integrity of the WTC was comprimised from the get go... and with the shot you&#39;re showing, was JUST a fire... nothing HIT the building, and they were STILL afraid of the thing collapsing... THIS is the "fire" that everyone compares to the WTC?

thats funny... that makes me laugh...

[olrono]

<div class='quotemain'>OK Shib, now let&#39;s compare the WTC fire with these pictures, ok?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/4262509.stm[/b]


Let me get this straight... you&#39;re comparing this fire, started by a short circuit to the WTC started by [?] that included a structural intrusion? be it planes or bombs, the WTC&#39;s core was weakened by something... it was MORE than a fire like the one you&#39;re showing... the structural integrity of the WTC was comprimised from the get go... and with the shot you&#39;re showing, was JUST a fire... nothing HIT the building, and they were STILL afraid of the thing collapsing... THIS is the "fire" that everyone compares to the WTC?

thats funny... that makes me laugh...
[/b][/quote]
That&#39;s the same thing we say about building number seven!

[Sketch]

That&#39;s the same thing we say about building number seven![/b]

I&#39;ve never doubted anything about 7... i don&#39;t know... but i doesn&#39;t really matter to me either... I seem to remember a news cast saying they were going to bring it down anyway... only later did i hear "it fell on its own"... either way, it doesn&#39;t effect me... the government lies all the time... what makes this lie any different than the ones Clinton made with the chinese?? or Reagan made with Iran?

[olrono]

<span style="font-family:Times New Roman">

[Sketch]

Fact, after every jet airliner crash they always reconstruct the aircraft in the big hanger in D.C. So, where is this evidence? Why have they not showed the American people this evidence of the aircraft that allegedly hit the Pentagon laid out on the ground in the hanger in Washington, D.C.?[/b]

That IS a very good question. But for now, it is a question without an answer. We can not jump to any conclusion our heart&#39;s desire... Jenn spent the night at Bob&#39;s... does that mean they had sex? no..... not that we know of.... so why jump to the conclusion that what hit the pentagon was a missle? there are a LOT of unanswered questions.... but no real answers aside from the paranoid thoughts of the gov&#39;t out to get people fabricated BECAUSE of a lack of information.... If its THAT important to you, then work on getting the information rather than spending countless hours fantasysing about what COULD be, and focus on what IS.... Has anyone sued the gov&#39;t for access to the debris? if so, I havent heard......If the gov&#39;t says no, then keep filing court briefs.... force them to show you what it is... hound them..... start a public outcry.... something in mainstream - billboards - not blogs.... personally, I think people want to make up the "truth" that they want rather than go after the facts... but thats just IMO

just semantics.... they always reconstruct it in the nearest hangar if they don&#39;t have an obvious cause of crash... not necessarily in DC... unless it happens in DC... Air Florida Flt 90 was reconstructed at Nat&#39;l Airport... Flt 800 was recon&#39;d in Calverton, NY as it was the closest hangar... even so, what ever hit the pentagon should&#39;ve been recon&#39;d at Nat&#39;l if not Andrews AFB - I&#39;m not sure which is closer.... things tend to get lost in flight even when there isn&#39;t a conspiracy....

[Jeshurun]

you just can&#39;t accept the idea that someone may not believe what you do, can you? Redpill was just asking a question. is that STILL not allowed with you? aside from the fact that you cite a source on "prison planet" which is absolutely slanted. you don&#39;t exactly get a balanced view there do you... but then again, what else do I expect from you... build a bridge and get over it.[/b]

So because the mainstream media won&#39;t tell the truth, we have to bash the ones that do? What, did prisonplanet fabricate all these people?

My hair gets singed when I get too close to my barbecue grill, or my oven, and that&#39;s 400 degrees F. These people being alive and waving for help standing right where these supposed steel melting fires were burning is not evidence?

Are we in the wrong for asking the government to prove their ridiculous story when it has resulted in the elimination of our constitution, and used as a premise to start 2 illegal wars, going on 3???

[Sketch]

Are we in the wrong for asking the government to prove their ridiculous story when it has resulted in the elimination of our constitution, and used as a premise to start 2 illegal wars, going on 3???[/b]

Absolutely not... but i don&#39;t see very many people ASKING. I see people coming up with their own stories. Anybody can start a religion or a conspiracy.... someone is ALWAYS there to follow... all ANY of us want is PROOF. all ANY of us HAVE is questions with NO answers... so with a lack of answers people go with the conclusions that they want to get... because its JUICY... might or might not be TRUE, but oh the JUICE!

and I will ALWAYS BASH ONE-SIDED MEDIA.... Its just as poisonous as partisan politics...

[Sketch]

people here like to point out eyewitness accounts... but leave out the ones that disagree with their theory... what about all the people who watched the plane hit the pentagon? do you automatically distrust their recollection? here are just a few taken from a site that disagrees with you... http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread79655/pg1


"Aydan Kizildrgli, an English language student who is a native of Turkey, saw the jetliner bank slightly then strike a western wall of the huge five-sided building that is the headquarters of the nation&#39;s military. &#39;There was a big boom,&#39; he said. &#39;Everybody was in shock. I turned around to the car behind me and yelled "Did you see that?" Nobody could believe it.&#39;"
- "Bush Vows Retaliation for &#39;Evil Acts&#39;. (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/09/11/attack%2Dusat.htm)" USA Today, 11 Sep 2001

"Frank Probst, an information management specialist for the Pentagon Renovation Program, left his office trailer near the Pentagon&#39;s south parking lot at 9:36 a.m. Sept. 11. Walking north beside Route 27, he suddenly saw a commercial airliner crest the hilltop Navy Annex. American Airlines Flight 77 reached him so fast and flew so low that Probst dropped to the ground, fearing he&#39;d lose his head to its right engine."
- "A Defiant Recovery. (http://www.troa.org/Magazine/January2002/feature3.asp)" The Retired Officer Magazine, January 2002

"Omar Campo, a Salvadorean, was cutting the grass on the other side of the road when the plane flew over his head. &#39;It was a passenger plane. I think an American Airways plane,&#39; Mr Campo said. &#39;I was cutting the grass and it came in screaming over my head. I felt the impact. The whole ground shook and the whole area was full of fire. I could never imagine I would see anything like that here.&#39;"
- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0%2C1300%2C550486%2C00.html)" The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001

"Afework Hagos, a computer programmer, was on his way to work but stuck in a traffic jam near the Pentagon when the plane flew over. &#39;There was a huge screaming noise and I got out of the car as the plane came over. Everybody was running away in different directions. It was tilting its wings up and down like it was trying to balance. It hit some lampposts on the way in.&#39;"
- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0%2C1300%2C550486%2C00.html)" The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001

"Henry Ticknor, intern minister at the Unitarian Universalist Church of Arlington, Virginia, was driving to church that Tuesday morning when American Airlines Flight 77 came in fast and low over his car and struck the Pentagon. &#39;There was a puff of white smoke and then a huge billowing black cloud,&#39; he said."
- "Hell on Earth. (http://www.uua.org/world/2002/01/feature3a.html)" UU World, Jan/Feb 20

"We were the only people, we think, who saw it live," Dan Creed said. He and two colleagues from Oracle software were stopped in a car near the Naval Annex, next to the Pentagon, when they saw the plane dive down and level off. "It was no more than 30 feet off the ground, and it was screaming. It was just screaming. It was nothing more than a guided missile at that point," Creed said. "I can still see the plane. I can still see it right now. It&#39;s just the most frightening thing in the world, going full speed, going full throttle, its wheels up," - Ahwatukee Foothill News (http://www.ahwatukee.com/afn/community/articles/020906a.html)

Gary Bauer former Presidential candidate, "I looked at the woman sitting in the car next to me. She had this startled look on her face. We were all thinking the same thing. We looked out the front of our windows to try to see the plane, and it wasn�t until a few seconds later that we realized the jet was coming up behind us on that major highway. And it veered to the right into the Pentagon. The blast literally rocked all of our cars. It was an incredible moment." Massachusetts News (http://www.massnews.com/past_issues/2001/dec%202001/1201bauer.htm)

Sean Boger, Air Traffic Controller and Pentagon tower chief - "I just looked up and I saw the big nose and the wings of the aircraft coming right at us and I just watched it hit the building," Air Traffic Controller and Pentagon tower chief Sean Boger said. "It exploded. I fell to the ground and covered my head. I could actually hear the metal going through the building." dcmilitary.com (http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/pentagram/6_46/local_news/12049-1.html) November 16, 2001

"The only way you could tell that an aircraft was inside was that we saw pieces of the nose gear. The devastation was horrific. It was obvious that some of the victims we found had no time to react. The distance the firefighters had to travel down corridors to reach the fires was a problem. With only a good 25 minutes of air in their SCBA bottles, to save air they left off their face pieces as they walked and took in a lot of smoke," Captain Defina said. Captain Defina was the shift commander [of an aircraft rescue firefighters crew.] NFPA Journal (http://www.nfpa.org/NFPAJournal/OnlineExclusive/Exclusive_11_01_01/exclusive_11.01.01.asp?cookie%5Ftest=1) November 1, 2001


and in all fairness... its a well known fact that eyewitness accounts are not very reliable... ask any police officer... or since people here are fans of the BBC and their state-funded documentaries... take a look at this article : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4177082.stm

[Jeshurun]

So then out of the probable hundreds of cameras at the most heavily secured building in the world should be able to show a picture of it, no?

And why go and confiscate privately recorded surveillance videos and never bother to show what was on them. What are they hiding?

We&#39;ve been through this before Sketch. They can do whatever they want and anybody who questions is either gagged or dead. Do you not get the picture?

This is no longer a democracy. It&#39;s being led by Satan and his minions. The people have lost their freedom, they just don&#39;t know it yet.

[Sketch]

So then out of the probable hundreds of cameras at the most heavily secured building in the world should be able to show a picture of it, no?

And why go and confiscate privately recorded surveillance videos and never bother to show what was on them. What are they hiding?[/b]

what if they aren&#39;t hiding ANYTHING? all you have are QUESTIONS!!! you have no ANSWERS!!! you only have SPECULATION!!!!


We&#39;ve been through this before Sketch. They can do whatever they want and anybody who questions is either gagged or dead. Do you not get the picture?[/b]
now i KNOW you&#39;re an elder... you ALWAYS ASSUME the worst. you always assume that people are HIDING things from you... why?


This is no longer a democracy. It&#39;s being led by Satan and his minions. The people have lost their freedom, they just don&#39;t know it yet.[/b]

When was it EVER a democracy? when WASN&#39;T it led by Satan?? why is this such a big deal to you? why why why?? you&#39;ve never ONCE answered that question.

[Jeshurun]

When was it EVER a democracy? when WASN&#39;T it led by Satan?? why is this such a big deal to you? why why why?? you&#39;ve never ONCE answered that question.[/b]

You have a point about it being led by Satan all along, but you ask when WAS it ever a democracy? The answer is, when it was the King of the South, which isn&#39;t much longer. There is something that you might be forgetting. The King of the North "floods over" the King of the South, and also inflicts the death-stroke. 9/11 was inflicted by the King of the North upon the King of the South, and the KOS plays into it&#39;s hands by obeying it&#39;s orders, because they all have one goal, Global Government. I&#39;m sorry if you can&#39;t comprehend why it is important to figure out who is responsible for this 9/11, ultimately, but it is important, to the effect of changing the course of history and the course of both of these kings.

As far as anything else, the end result is still the same, New World Order. I prefer to know HOW this happened, not to be misled into believing how it might have happened. If you follow the money trail of 9/11 and its aftermath, it will lead you to the eighth king. If you have followed what the government would have you believe, it leads you to Osama Bin Laden, which is a dead end. Hey, whatever happened to him anyway? And then it seemed like Saddam Hussein was responsible for 9/11. Oh, wait, he was taken out based on admitted "faulty intelligence", something to do with "WMD&#39;s." Now all of a sudden, Osama still doesn&#39;t matter, and Iran is the big problem. Somehow I keep smelling oil and money and power, global domination, all the "desirable things of Egypt". Why does it bother you so much when all the lies are being questioned? And why do we not have the right to try to interpret major prophecies based on the available evidence without you assailing every single point that is questioned? Are YOU working for the Government? Why is it so important to you that we let them lie and get away with it?

[olrono]

Socialism is where they take private property from one class and give it to another by force of government. Our Constitutional Republic is based on the rule of Law, not the rule of a King, a Dictator or any other man, or groups of men, only the Constitution. And, our Bill of Rights are said to be “God given rights” that are protected by government, not granted by government. Let me illustrate, we have the God given right to go to the Kingdom Hall and worship our God Jehovah unimpaired and to go door to door preaching this good news of the Kingdom unimpaired. In Fact our government is duty bound to protect those rights by force if necessary. As you can see we have drifted away from these high standards haven’t we? You see, the more “democracy” we have, the majority is growing everyday away from Christian ideals, and we have more restrictions placed on our worship from the majority. The Nation of Israel in the Bible can be said to be a “Constitutional Republic” because a constitution is a Contract and a Contract is a Covenant. Jehovah had a “Constitution” with Israel, the problem came from they did not obey it! So, really a Democracy is the rule of men, and we are to “obey God rather then men”.

[Shibboleth]

So then out of the probable hundreds of cameras at the most heavily secured building in the world should be able to show a picture of it, no?

And why go and confiscate privately recorded surveillance videos and never bother to show what was on them. What are they hiding?

We&#39;ve been through this before Sketch. They can do whatever they want and anybody who questions is either gagged or dead. Do you not get the picture?

This is no longer a democracy. It&#39;s being led by Satan and his minions. The people have lost their freedom, they just don&#39;t know it yet.[/b]


For security reasons they didn&#39;t release pictures of the pentagon. You are not allowed to video tape or take pictures of it. So it doesn&#39;t surprise me that they did not release any other video footage from other cameras. My ex-girlfriend worked for FBI, CIA and another CTU contract team and she has worked at the Pentagon for at least 15 years. She told me they have strict rules of what you can do there. She also lost a good friend and boss at the Pentagon when the plane hit.

So it does not surprse me that they took people&#39;s cameras and video cameras and other footage shot during the day. It is the central nervous system of the government for security. Do you think that if you went onto a military base that they would allow you to take pictures? Nope.

[Jeshurun]

For security reasons they didn&#39;t release pictures of the pentagon. You are not allowed to video tape or take pictures of it. So it doesn&#39;t surprise me that they did not release any other video footage from other cameras. My ex-girlfriend worked for FBI, CIA and another CTU contract team and she has worked at the Pentagon for at least 15 years. She told me they have strict rules of what you can do there. She also lost a good friend and boss at the Pentagon when the plane hit.

So it does not surprse me that they took people&#39;s cameras and video cameras and other footage shot during the day. It is the central nervous system of the government for security. Do you think that if you went onto a military base that they would allow you to take pictures? Nope.[/b]

Fine, then show us a picture of the 757 flying two feet off the ground on it&#39;s way to hitting the sacred building. That would shut everybody up. The problem is that the surveillance videos will probably show a Global Hawk instead, because the few pieces of debris that they found would fit a Global Hawk perfectly, most notably the engine rotor that was about 2 feet in diameter versus a 9 foot rotor that would come from a 757.

Incidentally, 2 Global Hawks have been listed as "missing" with "ongoing investigation" since 9/11. The other one hit the north tower. That would explain why the Naudet brothers&#39; video shows what looks like a flying pig hitting the north tower.

[Shibboleth]

Fine, then show us a picture of the 757 flying two feet off the ground on it&#39;s way to hitting the sacred building. That would shut everybody up. The problem is that the surveillance videos will probably show a Global Hawk instead, because the few pieces of debris that they found would fit a Global Hawk perfectly, most notably the engine rotor that was about 2 feet in diameter versus a 9 foot rotor that would come from a 757.

Incidentally, 2 Global Hawks have been listed as "missing" with "ongoing investigation" since 9/11. The other one hit the north tower. That would explain why the Naudet brothers&#39; video shows what looks like a flying pig hitting the north tower.[/b]

The Naudet Brothers saw an American Airlines plane hit the north tower. I also did a search on them and 90% of the searches came back to people&#39;s sites that want to debunk it and call it a conspiracy. Some of the the sites say that they don&#39;t believe that the brothers were lucky enough to get the footage and that it was staged.

Here is an article from BBC.

Naudet Brothers (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2236210.stm)

I think most of the conspiracy theorists want to see what they want to see and close their eyes to other possibilities. Someone may say they see a plane. Another says it&#39;s a missle. Someone else says it&#39;s a missle disguised as a plane. Someone else will say it&#39;s an attack chopper. Someone else says it&#39;s Snoopy fighting the Red Baron. In the end the towers still fell and the world changed forever.

This scripture from Revelation sums it all up.


Rev. 16

13 (http://) And I saw three unclean inspired expressions [that looked] like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the wild beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 (http://) They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and perform signs, and they go forth to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.[/b]

In the end it is still frog like expressions which we have absolutely no control over.

In the end I trust in Jehovah and I know he will right the wrongs. Whether these conspiracies are right or wrong I have absolutely no clue. How do we know that these conspiracies are not part of the expressions from demons? You have to be very very careful what you put into your mind and what you may view as the "truth". there is only one truth and that is Jehovah&#39;s word.

[Jeshurun]

In the end I trust in Jehovah and I know he will right the wrongs. Whether these conspiracies are right or wrong I have absolutely no clue. How do we know that these conspiracies are not part of the expressions from demons? You have to be very very careful what you put into your mind and what you may view as the "truth". there is only one truth and that is Jehovah&#39;s word.[/b]

I don&#39;t understand this reasoning. If Satan is "misleading the entire inhabited earth", then what would he accomplish by having the truth leak out? Isn&#39;t is entirely possible that Jehovah wants us to see the truth? If 9/11 did not happen, there would be no "war on terror", no US military presence in Afghanistan and Iraq, Iran would not be in the bullseye, and the entire course of history would be changed, and yet, Osama, the man "responsible" for 9/11, is still alive and nobody cares.

I have complete confidence that the lies will be exposed, because Jesus said so, in Matthew chapter 10:

²⁶ Therefore do not fear them; for there is nothing covered over that will not become uncovered, and secret that will not become known. ²⁷ What I tell YOU in the darkness, say in the light; and what YOU hear whispered, preach from the housetops.



There you go. I&#39;m trying to follow the master&#39;s advice. If 9/11 happened the way they said it did, then Satan would not be misleading anybody, would he?

[Shibboleth]

I don&#39;t understand this reasoning. If Satan is "misleading the entire inhabited earth", then what would he accomplish by having the truth leak out? Isn&#39;t is entirely possible that Jehovah wants us to see the truth? If 9/11 did not happen, there would be no "war on terror", no US military presence in Afghanistan and Iraq, Iran would not be in the bullseye, and the entire course of history would be changed, and yet, Osama, the man "responsible" for 9/11, is still alive and nobody cares.

I have complete confidence that the lies will be exposed, because Jesus said so, in Matthew chapter 10:

²⁶ Therefore do not fear them; for there is nothing covered over that will not become uncovered, and secret that will not become known. ²⁷ What I tell YOU in the darkness, say in the light; and what YOU hear whispered, preach from the housetops.



There you go. I&#39;m trying to follow the master&#39;s advice. If 9/11 happened the way they said it did, then Satan would not be misleading anybody, would he?[/b]

How do you know that these conspiracy theories are indeed factual? You don&#39;t. That is why they are called theories. There are some facts mixed in with non-facts. When you put trust in earthling man&#39;s facts where does it get you? 6,ooo years of going nowhere. I don&#39;t trust the government. In fact I know that it lies and I know they are not telling people the whole truth. Satan is going to use any means necessary to get you. How do you know for a fact he is not using these thoeries to capture people? You don&#39;t. He&#39;s the Master Deceiver.

[Jeshurun]

How do you know that these conspiracy theories are indeed factual? You don&#39;t. That is why they are called theories. There are some facts mixed in with non-facts. When you put trust in earthling man&#39;s facts where does it get you? 6,ooo years of going nowhere. I don&#39;t trust the government. In fact I know that it lies and I know they are not telling people the whole truth. Satan is going to use any means necessary to get you. How do you know for a fact he is not using these thoeries to capture people? You don&#39;t. He&#39;s the Master Deceiver.[/b]

I don&#39;t put any trust in theories, Shib, only the facts. Such as, buildings don&#39;t pancake at free fall speed, such as bombs exploding all over the building, including the basement. One guy was mutilated from one such bomb before the planes even hit.

I could list hundreds of facts that prove the official version wrong. However, there are some interesting theories out there, such as building 7 being used as a command center for the attacks. That would close a lot of holes in the investigation. But since they demolished building 7 and carted it off before anyone could blink, we might never know, but one thing I do know is, for some strange reason, Giuliani never used the megamillion dollar facility on the very day it was designed for.

[Berean]

If 9/11 did not happen, there would be no "war on terror", no US military presence in Afghanistan and Iraq, Iran would not be in the bullseye, and the entire course of history would be changed, and yet, Osama, the man "responsible" for 9/11, is still alive and nobody cares.[/b]
Oops, I don&#39;t think it works that way. You see, 9/11 was merely the direct cause for the war on terror, but there were other, underlying factors that would have resulted in a war in the Middle East sooner or later:
- First Gulf War
- America wants to protect its interests in the Middle East (oil, allies)
- America&#39;s foreign policy has always been based on decolonization (= &#39;liberating&#39; other countries)
- Baghdad was already bombed during the Clinton administration
- terrorism is also a reason (look at the bombings on US targets in Africa, for instance)

Of course the US government will point to terrorism as the main cause for the war, since that&#39;s the only thing that will get the people to support a war (although support is dwindling, because the façade is coming down).

What I&#39;m trying to say is, the US government didn&#39;t need 9/11 per se, it just needed any justification for a war, and in this case, 9/11 was it. Compare it to the Great War - European nations were already preparing for a war, they merely needed a direct cause, which they found in the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand.

[Jeshurun]

Yes Berean, you are correct. The key thing that you said was "sooner or later". The Washington-based neocon thinktank, the "Project For a New American Century", clearly stated in 1997 that they would need a cataclysmic event, of the magnitude of a "New Pearl Harbor" (yes this is on their website) to establish a military presence in the Middle East.

[Nambo]

I don&#39;t understand this reasoning. If Satan is "misleading the entire inhabited earth", then what would he accomplish by having the truth leak out? Isn&#39;t is entirely possible that Jehovah wants us to see the truth? If 9/11 did not happen, there would be no "war on terror", no US military presence in Afghanistan and Iraq, Iran would not be in the bullseye, and the entire course of history would be changed, and yet, Osama, the man "responsible" for 9/11, is still alive and nobody cares.[/b]

In view of this from Daniel

"40 (http://) “And in the time of [the] end the king of the south will engage with him in a pushing, and against him the king of the north will storm with chariots and with horsemen and with many ships; and he will certainly enter into the lands and flood over and pass through. 41 (http://) He will also actually enter into the land of the Decoration, and there will be many [lands] that will be made to stumble. But these are the ones that will escape out of his hand, E´dom and Mo´ab and the main part of the sons of Am´mon. 42 (http://) And he will keep thrusting out his hand against the lands; and as regards the land of Egypt, she will not prove to be an escapee. 43 (http://) And he will actually rule over the hidden treasures of the gold and the silver and over all the desirable things of Egypt. And the Lib´y·ans and the E·thi·o´pi·ans will be at his steps"


The Al Qaeda threat seems to be growing again and giving the excuse to go for a lot more than just Afganistan, Iraq and Iran!




-------------------------------------------------

"Asia Times Online usually runs decent articles, but a recent piece by Syed Saleem Shahzad, Pakistan Bureau Chief, is nothing less than a Brothers Grimm fairy tale on steroids, not surprising as Pakistan serves as an ISI disinfo hub.

“Al-Qaeda will this year significantly step up its global operations after centralizing its leadership and reviving its financial lifelines. Crucially, al-Qaeda has developed missile and rocket technology with the capability of carrying chemical, biological and nuclear warheads, according to an al-Qaeda insider who spoke to Asia Times Online,” writes Shahzad.

Of course, the media, reading straight from a Pentagon script, has told us the CIA-ISI manufactured terrorist group has been “centralizing its leadership and reviving its financial lifelines” for years now, not that this supposed reorganization and infusion of operating capital has produced tangible results. However, now that Iran is in the crosshairs, it makes perfect sense “al-Qaeda” is “reviving” itself.

As for the claim al-CIA-duh “has developed missile and rocket technology” supposedly capable of “carrying chemical, biological and nuclear warheads,” this is simply and utterly absurd as it obviously requires the apparatus of a state and industrial complex to produce such sophisticated technology, unless we are witless enough to believe the sort of nuclear weapons and the missiles required to deliver such payloads are easily manufactured in Waziristan with parts smuggled in under cover of sheep-herding Wazir tribes.

“While al-Qaeda will continue to operate in Afghanistan and Iraq, it will broaden its global perspective to include Europe and hostile Muslim states, Asia Times Online has learned. For the first time since its attacks on the US on September 11, 2001, this could be al-Qaeda’s year on the offensive.”

In other words, the neocon agenda needs to be completed before Bush leaves office in 2008, thus we are to be sold on the idea that 2007 may represent “al-Qaeda’s year on the offensive.”

“According to the contact, ‘The time has come for a message to be communicated to Europe.’ Asked what kind of message this would be, the contact simply smiled.”

Obviously, much of Europe, outside of impoverished and desperate for recognition and hard-strapped for cash former Soviet satellites in Eastern Europe, need to be sent a “message,” not from “al-Qaeda” terrorists but rather from the neocons, demanding “Old Europe” tow the “clash of civilizations” line.

Shahzad’s “al-Qaeda” source “stated that with Western forces trapped in Afghanistan and Iraq, it was time to open up new fronts in Somalia, Algeria, Egypt, Palestine and other places.”

Isn’t it curious “al-Qaeda” has decided to “open new fronts” in countries that figure on the neocon target list? It is of utmost importance “al-Qaeda” get busy in Palestine, of course, as the Israelis, who are connected at the hip with the American neocons, never get tired of demonizing and victimizing Palestinians.

“‘In each place, al-Qaeda has its own command and control apparatus, including Palestine, and all those fronts will be opened up very soon,’ the contact said.”

[juffowup]

A few months ago, when the conspiracy threads started, I predicted this would happen. Tons of threads debating politics and minute brick a brack, and less and less threads that have some sort of spiritual significants. I checked out for a month to see if it would go away, and its worse now than ever.

If the 9/11 stuff is right, it means we&#39;re living in a world controlled by Satan and his demons and is doomed to be destroyed, in which maybe America is the new King of the North. If its wrong, we&#39;re still living in a world controlled by Satan and his demons and is doomed to be destroyed, and maybe America is still the King of the South, if it ever was in the first place.

I still don&#39;t know of what significants this all is, and for the record, I think the analysis of the KOTS/KOTN in the Daniel book is largely a waste of time. It is interesting in a looking back sort of way, but even the Society admits that it has zero predictive ability. It is there to strengthen our faith in the fulfilled word of god.

So, does all this conspiracy research strengthen your faith in God&#39;s word? If so, then great, keep on doing it. But please, please, PLEASE do not think you are doing some Great Work by exposing the machinations behind the evil political forces of the world, because you&#39;re not. There is not one person here who doesn&#39;t believe the governmental forces are wicked and being manipulated.

For those of us who don&#39;t see it as you do, it is just tiring and wearisome, and it makes us feel like we are fighting with those who we have NO REAL QUARREL with. I can assure you, I am not one of the duped masses much less part of the NWO conspiracy trying to SILENCE the TRUTH. I would just like some peace and quiet here where I can discuss aspects of the Truth as revealed by Jehovah and preached by his Son with fellow believers.

Debating who is the Great Satan, be it America, Great Brittan, EU, Canada and Australia or Timbuktu, it is all vanity, and a striving after the wind. They&#39;re all Satan, and Daniel 2:44 says they&#39;re all going to be done away with, regardless of who knocked down what towers, how many people shot JFK, or if people landed on the moon. It is my opinion, that this is yet another "error of operation" that people are letting distract them from what is important.

[Jeshurun]

The KOS/KON conflict is one of the most intriguing prophecies in Jehovah&#39;s Word, and yes, it builds my faith tremendously to see it fulfilled in Jehovah&#39;s infinite wisdom. Just peering out into the world over the internet, I can tell you that I haven&#39;t found one single Bible scholar who has it all right, except Watchman. And it was, in fact, this very thing that allowed me to find e-Watchman, because I was led directly into one of his essays on the subject while researching 9/11, and if he didn&#39;t have it right, I would have never found it.

As members of Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses, we are quite well aware of the misinterpretations by the Watchtower. They have a KON who went out of business in 1991 and they don&#39;t even bother to rethink the situation. How sad. We are also well aware of the mind control that doesn&#39;t allow us to think. Even if this were a non-biblical topic, a little diversity is a healthy thing. It can&#39;t be all spiritual all the time. And if you look at the other threads, there is plenty of spirituality here and a healthy balance. Anyone not interested in exploring the deep things of God can always keep the peripheral blinders on and just wear out a path between their home, the book study, the field service, and the Kingdom Hall.

I would be careful about selecting any of Jehovah&#39;s prophecies and labeling them a waste of time. That ain&#39;t good.

[olrono]

A few months ago, when the conspiracy threads started, I predicted this would happen. Tons of threads debating politics and minute brick a brack, and less and less threads that have some sort of spiritual significants. I checked out for a month to see if it would go away, and its worse now than ever.

If the 9/11 stuff is right, it means we&#39;re living in a world controlled by Satan and his demons and is doomed to be destroyed, in which maybe America is the new King of the North. If its wrong, we&#39;re still living in a world controlled by Satan and his demons and is doomed to be destroyed, and maybe America is still the King of the South, if it ever was in the first place.

I still don&#39;t know of what significants this all is, and for the record, I think the analysis of the KOTS/KOTN in the Daniel book is largely a waste of time. It is interesting in a looking back sort of way, but even the Society admits that it has zero predictive ability. It is there to strengthen our faith in the fulfilled word of god.

So, does all this conspiracy research strengthen your faith in God&#39;s word? If so, then great, keep on doing it. But please, please, PLEASE do not think you are doing some Great Work by exposing the machinations behind the evil political forces of the world, because you&#39;re not. There is not one person here who doesn&#39;t believe the governmental forces are wicked and being manipulated.

For those of us who don&#39;t see it as you do, it is just tiring and wearisome, and it makes us feel like we are fighting with those who we have NO REAL QUARREL with. I can assure you, I am not one of the duped masses much less part of the NWO conspiracy trying to SILENCE the TRUTH. I would just like some peace and quiet here where I can discuss aspects of the Truth as revealed by Jehovah and preached by his Son with fellow believers.

Debating who is the Great Satan, be it America, Great Brittan, EU, Canada and Australia or Timbuktu, it is all vanity, and a striving after the wind. They&#39;re all Satan, and Daniel 2:44 says they&#39;re all going to be done away with, regardless of who knocked down what towers, how many people shot JFK, or if people landed on the moon. It is my opinion, that this is yet another "error of operation" that people are letting distract them from what is important.[/b]
If you are looking for some spiritual nourishment you could contribute to the “Sharpening our Swords Tread”?

[Kenneth]

It might be a good idea to find some middle ground. Each of us has our own reasons and interests for being here. For myself I discovered e-watchman as a result in looking for the KOTN even though the identity of the King of the North is not something that I study that much. Plus I have no great interest in the idea of the conspiracy even though I believe that they exist in certain quarters. That’s why I participate little in these discussions, I just believe that sometime we read just a little too much into what’s going on and it gets us nowhere. However, if others want to research it I don’t have a problem with that. Perhaps the middle ground could be had by having just one or two threads on the subject or at lest keeping it to a minimum. Some of the research is well though out and presented by the few who are engaged in the topic and I for one have been enlighten by it. So it does hold value. For me I’m just preoccupied with what’s going on in the congregation[s] and the minds of JWs. I haven’t said too much lately as I am trying to adopt a policy of being a bit more positive about what matters, how I’m going to do this I’m not sure. Perhaps we can have a thread on the positive things in the Watchtower. Now that will be a really challenge.

[Jeshurun]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I was making a conscientious effort to ease up on the 911 stuff because it definitely upsets people and I don&#39;t really understand why. Exposing government lies seems to be anathema to some and I find it puzzling. But whatever the case, the topic was lying dormant for a week and I was feeling happy about it and then out of nowhere someone quotes me from a week ago and then I have to respond. I try to keep the response brief but then the whole crowd of conspiracy police jumps in and then we have a brouhaha.

Personally anybody can believe what they want about 9/11, but because it changed the course of history so much it comes up frequently in conversations and many times there is simply no way to avoid this. This is because it&#39;s prophetic implications are tremendous, and as I have said it is directly related to the identity of the King of the North.

Some here may find this hard to believe, but I have actually exercised TREMENDOUS RESTRAINT AND SELF CONTROL when it comes to this, because I have such horrible stuff in my archives pertaining to some of our highest profile leaders that it puts them up there with the most horrific criminals who have ever lived. But do I post it? NO. Would I like to? YES. But I share it with others only in PM&#39;s and other than that I keep it to myself.

As Jesus said, "there is nothing secret that will not become known".

I also can&#39;t understand why someone who gets so upset by the conspiracy talk would even click on those threads. We have plenty of threads that are entirely spiritual, but they seem to single out those threads and focus on them and attack them, calling them "theories" when they are clearly not theories.

If we can all come to a consensus on this issue, that would be great.

Agape

Lou

[Kenneth]

Hi Jeshurun

As I have just stated each of us have our own interests and perhaps specialities in varied subjects. And I for one have no issue with you or any of the others discussing these matters. We can&#39;t discuss them in the congregation for obvious reasons, but as you say we need to "come to a consensus on this issue". Well as I stated above "Perhaps the middle ground could be had by having just one or two threads" and if others find the material worrying then they can steer clear of the issue. After all no one can force us to click onto the thread. Why not start a new thread and call it &#39;Conspiracy&#39; and leave it at that. Then who even wishes to contribute or read it the choice becomes theirs.

[Nambo]

"13 (http://) And I saw three unclean inspired expressions [that looked] like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the wild beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 (http://) They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and perform signs, and they go forth to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.

15 (http://) “Look! I am coming as a thief. Happy is the one that stays awake "


I expect a critisism of the above will be viewed as a "conspiracy theory", as for me, I dread the day if I ever succomb to this pressure to stop trying to help others from believing the lies of Satan and his minions.

[DoubtingThomas]

Jeshuran: I don&#39;t think that any of us here are "upset" (as you put it) about the "Conspiracy" topics on this Board. They are very interesting to look in to and even discuss. It is just that some of us who truly look in to and study these matters require a higher level of proof than you do. I realize that you believe and state emphatically that some of what you write here is not theory but fact. But you need to realize that we all have a freedom to choose what we want to believe here. Personally, I am a DoubtingThomas and therefore do not believe every inspired expression that happens to come along. I require a very high standard as far as my level of "proof". Some of what you write here and dogmatically state as "fact" has not been proven factual to me. Sorry brother! So perhaps Kenneth is correct in suggesting limiting these post, because I do believe that many others who come here to read these things are similiar to me in their required levels of proof and believe those who are trying to persuade or even push their view points on others are being unreasonable in doing so.

[DoubtingThomas]

The purpose and mission of this board to to provide a place for the discussion of spiritual matters and the bible prophecies of our faith as Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses. Everyone here realizes the corruption of the governements and the intent on the part of some political and religious leaders to establish a single world governement and religion. We all realize that this is gona happen and that we can&#39;t do anything to stop it. So how long are we gona keep beatin this dead horse?

Since we have already established that the governments are corrupt, and are headed for destructio because of their defiance of Jehovah in attempting to establish a New World Order against His Kingdom, let&#39;s get about doing what we should be doing: Preaching the good news to others so they know where to turn to. We have established the problem - Conspiracy to establish a New World Order. Now let&#39;s focus our attention on directing others to the solution: God&#39;s Kingdom.

Conspiracy theories have a reasonable place for discussion but should not dominate nearly every topic or thread on this forum because they are not that important anyway.

[Shibboleth]

I wholeheartedly agree with DT. Thank you.

[juffowup]

I was making a conscientious effort to ease up on the 911 stuff because it definitely upsets people and I don&#39;t really understand why. Exposing government lies seems to be anathema to some and I find it puzzling.[/b]

Well, that&#39;s the whole problem, isn&#39;t it? I don&#39;t feel like you are exposing lies. I feel like you are spreading already debunked and laughably amateur misinformation that distracts me from what I feel is important. No one can tell you otherwise because all sources that disagree with you are defacto "mainstream stooges" that have been "co-opted" by the "shadow government" or the "Blutentargs" and "Skull and Bones", where the Queen, the Rockerfellers, Russells, Bushes, and Colonel Sanders meet quarterly to decide the fate of the world. Do you really think the brothers in Germany were pouring over everything Hitler did and said in the 30&#39;s and deciding if their government was still a democracy or if Hitler was standing up as the KotN or if Krystalnacht was just a government conspiracy to launch a campaign against the Jews? I&#39;ve never heard any of the concentration camp survivors credit their astute study of world events and uncovering of government lies with keeping their integrity. Have any of you? Of what benefit would it have been for them if they did? Do you think when some NWO UN thug is kicking your door down in the middle of the night your internet facts about steel&#39;s melting point and what temperature some smoke makes what color is going to make a difference? I don&#39;t get it.

Am I being blunt enough? Do you realize that you guys come across as extremely condescending to those of us who are skeptical of your facts, with all this "anathema" and "sheep" stuff, right? I mean, come on, it is an "anathema" to me to expose government lies. That is personally offensive to me, and I feel totally disrespected by it. I feel you brothers are putting yourselves in danger by spending so much time and energy in this, you feel like I am a duped sheep. Who can resolve the contradiction there?

I know, you feel like you are publishing some sort of unique and important truth. But even if this were the case and you were exposing lies, we get it already. If the government hasn&#39;t lied about 9/11 it has lied about a million other things, and what is more, these lies are not unique to the USofA. Imagine if half the threads were lengthy quotations of the silent lambs site with every new account of child abuse as a new fact that needs to be addressed and poured over. Or if half the threads were four or five brothers and sisters pouring over quotes from sites debunking 1914. I agree with all these things, but I would also eventually cry "enough" over it.

Having said all this, I think there can be a balance. I can see how some would like to discuss this stuff, and find it strengthening and intellectually stimulating. But it would require ones to respect others who don&#39;t share their convictions. And for sure the balance isn&#39;t as now, where fully HALF the threads in the general discussion/last days topics are about NWO/911 stuff. I just counted, and that&#39;s a pretty accurate tally. Not only that, but in many other threads not fitting this profile, the thread is hi-jacked with random quotes and interjections regarding conspiracy info. And it is the latter part that is especially annoying, because even if you studiously avoid the conspiracy threads so as to promote peace among us brothers here, you get it shoved down your throat in un-related threads or called out in a thread like this one.

One of the many things I admire about Brother King, is that even if I feel he is a bit off the reservation about some of this stuff (and as I said I feel it is yet another error of operation), it isn&#39;t the only thing he talks about, and he doesn&#39;t mind people disagreeing with him, sometimes to a fault. I don&#39;t know, maybe we can have a seperate forum for this stuff, like "Living in New World Order mediations" or something.

Gah. And yuk.

[Jinnvisible]

The firemen who where at the Twin Towers when they fell down reported hearing mulitple explositions before the buildings fell down, this is a fact, you can see the film evidence of them saying it, "boom, boom, boom, boom" (unless they are lying? and why?)[/b]



juffowup : "Having said all this, I think there can be a balance. I can see how some would like to discuss this stuff, and find it strengthening and intellectually stimulating. But it would require ones to respect others who don&#39;t share their convictions. And for sure the balance isn&#39;t as now, where fully HALF the threads in the general discussion/last days topics are about NWO/911 stuff"



Focus can be an instrument of deception. For instance there has been much talk about the melting point of steel, tempreture of exploding aviation fuel ect.

One thing that struck me as being strange is the lack of wide spread in-depth media coverage concerning the effect that the 9/11 event had on world economics and especially those who were known to have high investments stakes and who also hold positions of political or civic power.

The drama and special effects of the event seem to have center stage. The tragic suffering that occured is heart wrenching. Yet i know little more about the opperation of trade in the twin towers of the trade center and its position in shady world economics than i did before it was demolished.



Gold increased in value.

[Jeshurun]

And for sure the balance isn&#39;t as now, where fully HALF the threads in the general discussion/last days topics are about NWO/911 stuff. I just counted, and that&#39;s a pretty accurate tally.[/b]

With all due respect, Juffowup, I counted 6 threads out of 124 that are about "NWO/911 stuff", and I was trying to be liberal. Can you please point out the other 56?

Thanks!

Lou

[olrono]

Jesus gave us the example, the Idea of being “Balanced” is un Scriptural. For when some one is balanced, they are in fact between two ideas considering both equally not taking any side, for if you have really chosen sides, we are not balanced. Remember in Revelation he said being cold or hot, but if you were lukewarm he would vomit you from his mouth. I for one find it refreshing that the brothers are passionate about something and are brave to discuss these issues, for I believe when the time comes to take the mark these ones will find it to recognize exactly what the mark will be, wail all the rest of you will be afraid to except the fact and will rely on others to have to tell you what the mark is and in this process could even miss it and wined up taking it. Did any of you ever see the movie about the “Holocaust”? Do you remember seeing them march to the gas chambers? Tell me where in the Bible we are to obey and march without resisting, and I will show you where you were brainwashed to misinterpret Scripture. See, that’s what is at the root of this, you being afraid to take sides and stand for your faith, so you really don’t want to hear anything that reminds you of this fact you just hope that when the time comes Jehovah will have mercy on you and you won’t have to do it.

[BackToBasics]

One of my friends sent me a link and I found it a really good read .

I understand we cant put links here so here is the article .Its a bit long but well worth the effort .


1) Conspiracy Theory - Intro and Overview
Conspiracy Theory is more than just the belief in an occasional conspiracy. Simply put, it is a belief system that asserts that world events are being controlled in secret by a group of ultra-powerful puppeteers behind the scenes. While nothing much can be done about this overall conspiracy, at least we can have the satisfaction of being smart enough to have figured it all out.

If viewed as fiction, Conspiracy Theory is compelling and fascinating. If it were just a nightmarish novel meant to be unnerving and just a bit beyond plausible, like Asimov&#39;s Foundation, that would be one thing. But Conspiracy Theory projects its fiction onto real-life people, families, groups, and organizations. It purports to actually be true... and this is the problem.


If The Root Is Unholy...


Conspiracy Theories are as old as politics. Hitler was a master at weaving conspiracy tales. Nero concocted one to shift the blame to Christians for the burning of Rome. Those who rejected the resurrection of Messiah came up with a Conspiracy Theory to explain the empty tomb and His many appearances. And so on.

The modern day mythology of conspiracy was brought into popular view by the self-styled Democratic candidate Lyndon LaRouche and his followers in the late 1970s. (You may remember the guys in the airports, right next to the Moonies.) The LaRouchites would pass out "Executive Intelligence Reports" (EIRs) that purported to inform us plebeians what was "really going on" and why we should thus support Lyndon.

Ironically, the hobbyhorse of an outcast Democrat has now made the shift from airport "kook" fundraising to mainstream commentators and talk show hosts on radio, both conservative and Christian.


Regurgitated Propaganda, Or Wisdom?


The basic plotlines of Conspiracy Theory have a striking resemblance to anti-Semitic propaganda manufactured in Germany pre-WW2, with only the slight obfuscation of substituting "international bankers" for "Jews." Indeed, many in the Militia and Patriot movements have no illusions about this and have an open anti-Semitic message.

Lyndon LaRouche, and later a few credulous Christian prophecy teachers, brought these ideas into widespread exposure by omitting the original--and more obvious--anti-Semitic ravings and by weaving them together into a compelling whole. Before this, John Birch Society members often promoted them.

Somehow, these tales inflame the fears and paranoia of people to the extent that, even when the Jewish target is "removed," a residue remains in the human imagination that is happy to attach itself to a more vague target. For it must be admitted that some people get a perverse enjoyment from wallowing in such "snits" of paranoia, bogus "insight," fear, discontentment, etc. that propaganda like this evokes. The genius of the modern "Christian" versions of Conspiracy Theory is that now we do not have to be openly anti-Semitic to enjoy these effects.


Strange Bedfellows


With the common bond of being "upset" and discontent in general, the modern co-belligerents of Conspiracy Theory are an odd group indeed. Nowhere is the absurdity of this more stark and ironic than among Jewish Christians who espouse it.

The sources of Conspiracy Theory notions are suspicious--to be generous. But regardless of a dubious historical pedigree, is Conspiracy Theory true or merely a paranoid delusion coupled with an active imagination? Or is it just the human tradition of "ghost stories" taken to a new level of story-telling believability?

These questions must be asked by modern-day Christians since Conspiracy Theory concepts and assumptions are intertwined with modern pop-eschatology "end times" teaching. This (unfortunately) being the case--and Conspiracy Theory assertions are clearly extra-biblical--we must "test all things" (1Thessalonians 5:21) by doing a thorough "fruit inspection" of these ideas. For we are told to judge a tree by its fruit (Matthew 7:16-20).

Unless we are ready to suggest that fear, paranoia, delusion, slander, and hatred are new "fruit of the Spirit" (Galatians 5:22-23), we need to go into this with the instinctive spiritual premonition that Conspiracy Theory is likely to fail the test and with the view to let the Holy Spirit lead us to repentance.




2) Working in the Dark
The problem of testing the "theory" at the level of information is stark. Conspiracy Theory is by its very nature impossible to disprove. The revisionist history of Conspiracy Theory is based on "special knowledge" that plays by different rules than normal history, since it is dealing with "secret" history.

It is easy to spin these tales, but how can they be tested for being true? If you attempt to do this and find the notions bogus, are you one of "them?" As the joke goes, "Just because I&#39;m paranoid doesn&#39;t mean the world isn&#39;t really out to get me!"

So the "theorists" spin yarns, and nary a soul will contest them. After all, who is well-connected enough politically and economically to say for sure that no long-running international conspiracy exists? Get it? The deck is loaded.

The Conspiratist can go on and on without the need for any real research, except to imagine how it might be in a dark fantasy that will appeal to the paranoia and disenchantment of the intended audience and, in general, fit in with the overall Theory.

But those who do not "buy it" have to try to prove that a nonexistent group didn&#39;t have a supposed meeting at such-and-such a place, etc.; or worse still that this or that real group or person has been wholly misunderstood and misquoted. This second case is especially nasty, as many of the real groups and people, whom we would be defending and quoting correctly, have open (i.e., not conspiratorial) agendas we disagree with! It is a perfect trap: to counter the Conspirators&#39; misrepresentation, exaggeration, and fantasy we will end up defending, giving time, attention, emphasis, clarification, press, etc., to ideas we loath!

It is not work to cheer the soul, so few have tried.

So the "theory" evolves and grows and goes on--largely unchecked. It is not possible to comprehensively disprove ALL cases, and only an impossibly long-suffering soul would spend time clarifying the SPECIFIC bad ideas that have been made worse by overstatement, exaggeration, alarmism, and fantasy.

The crowning beauty--or horror--of Conspiracy Theory is that conspiracy is by its very nature secret and thus cannot be proven or disproved.

Of course, the conspiracy buffs claim special "insider" knowledge. Should they be believed? <a href="http://" target="_blank">




3) The Theory Meets Reality
To start with, let us acknowledge straight off that there are people and groups of people out there who have plots, plans, and ideas that are secret, bad, even dangerous. The nature of these real conspiracies will be addressed briefly in counterpoint to Conspiracy THEORIES.

That people in power and wealth tend to promote people who agree with them or have some other common bond is no conspiracy, but simple human nature. A president, for example, is EXPECTED to appoint judges who are like-minded to him. Leaders in general form a liking for particular schools, sources of talent, consultants, etc. based on past history of success. If you are building a house, would you not favor a church member or good friend as a contractor, all else being equal, especially if you had received good service from them in the past? This may look like collusion to outsiders, but is simple pragmatic management to those involved. For Conspiracy Theory adherents to suggest that such normal activities prove a "conspiracy" is not good evidence that they are thinking clearly. We all know what a real conspiracy is, do we not?

Real conspiracies work best when small and short lived. They take significant energy and planning and are vulnerable to the light of scrutiny. Every person brought in and every day that passes adds to the risk of an ongoing conspiracy.

Occasionally people really do conspire. For example, our American founding fathers declared independence from England some 200 years ago. But the "conspiracy" in that case was just the means used, not the cause. It was needed momentarily, then dropped as a technique. The real and lasting causes were well known, even by the British. The American Revolution could have been reasonably predicted by traditional sociology and political science. The conspiracy aspect was a temporary sideshow.

Those who aspire to do anything (good or bad) often collude in secret before launching out. Consensus building in private, forming alliances away from public view, and strategic meetings in secret are certainly a "way of the world."

But this is mere conventional thinking, not Conspiracy Theory. Conspiratists believe not merely that an occasional conspiracy exists, but that this is the dominant theme of history, that an "unseen hand" is guiding the world inexorably to the whim of certain supra-rich and/or powerful individuals.


The Clouded Crystal Ball


Conspiracy Theory assertions have a nasty habit of colliding head-on with reality. Its predictive power is poor, dismally so, since it rarely deals with real motives and forces in the world. Real people, including leaders, most often do things out of greed, altruism, self interest, passion, fear, ideals, racial or religious hatred, and the like.

To point out all the failed predictions of Conspiracy Theory would surely fill the internet, since every Conspiratist has his own unique spin on the Theory. As a challenge to the reader--from what you know of it--has Conspiracy Theory ever been right? I cannot think of a single case: an election, Russia taking us over, predictions of economic collapse, Christians being placed into concentration camps, Soviet armies massing at the Mexican border, the UN becoming more than a venting place and whipping boy, etc. Can you?

Conspiratists seem much better at fanciful reinterpretations of history than predicting what will happen next. But this does not stop them from trying. For the Conspiratist takes great pride in being "in the know."

Of course, when Conspiracy Theory fails to accurately predict world events, this often increases the inability to persuade those who believe in it. "Ah," they say, "It is all a grand plot to lull us further into to thinking THEY aren&#39;t really planning the opposite..." and so on. Conspiracy Theory is perversely flexible.

Should Christians be involved in the promulgation of esoteric theories as likely wrong as not and with such a dismal history of accuracy? </a>




4) The Return of the Illuminati
With wild claims of inside information on international clandestine dealings, the conspiracy buffs end up in an ironic hypocrisy. They believe in an ongoing "Illuminati." The Illuminati were (are?) a group that claimed special knowledge, secret knowledge that set them above the common man. Does such a group exist in today&#39;s world? Are there those among us who see themselves as possessing secret knowledge not available to the common man? Ironically, the Conspiracy Theorists themselves are the best candidates to be found. They have "figured it out," and if you do not "see it," then you are just one of the dupes manipulated by the ghost Conspiracy that only the "enlightened ones" know about.

Have you noticed that the most vocal promoters of Conspiracy Theory seem to be uniquely unqualified? It seems, as a rule, they are custodians, bus drivers, clerks, etc.; but here they are on the radio or publishing a leaflet or book as an expert on insider business and political dealings at an international level! This is not to denigrate any profession, but merely to point out that there seems to be a common thread among the most enthusiastic supporters and proponents of Conspiracy Theory--they lack experience and access to the international political and business world, and seem to have careers that allow lots of time to fantasize about how things "really are."

To those involved in world affairs, these fanciful causal claims seem especially divorced from reality. They simply do not fit the facts. Of course, anyone making such a statement is likely to be accused of being a conspirator as well, so for most it seems more prudent to avoid the issue as a human embarrassment too shameful to directly address. The general silence and/or stares of unbelief are taken as further circumstantial "evidence."

While we may not often like the way things are, the causal factors rarely include a conspiracy. Are not the real problems we face usually all too open and obvious: workaday problems like greed, self-interest, fear, bigotry, laziness, etc., flagrantly displayed or perhaps thinly veiled at best? <a href="http://" target="_blank">




5) The Symbiosis and Risks of Alarmism
There are people and groups in this world who promote "everything under the sun." There is probably even a group out there somewhere who think humans ought to dress up like kangaroos. The question in analyzing any of these groups or ideas should be: is the group in question worth paying attention to? The motives and passions of a vocal minority of goofballs who do not count as "players" in the real world should not alarm or derail us. This is to be expected. But these kooks on the globalization lunatic fringe are the basic fodder for the conspiracy alarmists. The two groups need each other to exist, it appears, as no one else is listening.

Are we to believe that a few "visionaries" who are a little soft in the head about the benefits of a "one world government" are really winning the day? Is not the problematic drift in the world today towards nationalism, isolationalism, balkanization, sectarianism, and fragmentation? Is this not the obvious reason for several wars and conflicts going on in the world right now?


Serious Threat Or Political "Hollywood Squares?"


Imagine this scenario: A smarmy academic gets up at a "New Age" UN seminar and offers a bromide on the unity of man and "spaceship earth." Now, as a result of this froof-rah, are the various ethnic, religious, and cultural wars being fought around the world going to skid to a sudden stop? Are Islamic militants going to smile and put away their suicide bombs and terrorist plans and recognize Israel&#39;s right to exist? What do you think? At an economic level, is the Japanese government going to give up protecting their farming industry, abandon their political power base, and join a global government? Is anyone who matters in these conflicts even listening to this prattle? Besides the conspiracy alarmists (who are taking vigorous notes and paying over careful attention), the audience appears to be only those on a nice paid boondoggle as "ambassadors" to New York. Or perhaps this giddy speech is being loftily set forth at a roundtable "conference" in some other nice vacation city to an attendance roster of political has-beens, wash-ups, wanna-bes--and the paparazzi who clamor after them--with a few serious "kangaroo suit" types thrown in for good measure?

While this is all great fun to watch, let us be sober-minded here. The coming one-world government is not likely to be created by the pathetic attempts of the likes of the UN utopians, or imaginary rich people who long to cut off the trade advantages that are the very branch they are sitting on; but rather in reaction to a global crisis of God&#39;s judgment on a world that will be groping in response. In the meantime, the way of the world is much more easily understood without the kaleidoscopic thrills of Conspiracy Theory. And while conspiratists project fantastic evils onto the Rockefellers or the Catholics or the US Congress or the Jews or whomever, real enemies who are hell-bent on destroying us go unnoticed.

The bottom line is that while it may be great fun and fantasy for those of a paranoid bent, Conspiracy Theory is NOT taken seriously by people who run this world, it is useless for predicting or explaining what is going on and why. Only those who do not need to be correct can hold this view for long.


Sanity Check


The media has an undeniable liberal and anti-Christian bias. But let us keep in mind that while leaders of our media are responsible for their actions, we are responsible for ours as well. As slanted and distorted as our news is, should WE then resort to rumors and hearsay as an alternative? Is this not jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire? If the issue is truth, then the failure of our media is no excuse for us doing even worse!

And consider that in our world today there are cultures where Christianity is totally censured and/or believers are imprisoned, even [/i]put to death [/i]for their faith. Our Kingdom is not of this world, and we will never have the "perfect situation" till Messiah comes again, even though we should not cease making every effort to improve all we can while we can. But let us get a sense of perspective here. Are we not being crybabies for complaining overly much about our media compared to what our brethren in other parts of the world are having to endure for His Name&#39;s sake? No one is forcing us to "buy" the liberal media "pitch," nor even incline our ears or eyes to it. We can just turn it off or engage it with discernment.

Real and destructive conspiracies exist, and it is good work to espose them. Although much that is called "conspiracy" in modern history could more properly be termed a "cover-up" (being done after the fact), great evil has been plotted--and is even now being plotted--by way of real conspiracy. It is indeed righteous work for Christians to expose and thwart all such, as we have opportunity.


The Credibility Factor


But alas, we are disqualified before we start for this work. We have fallen into the "chicken little syndrome": because of our scandalous excesses of alarmism and intoxication with Conspiracy THEORIES and lack of regard for what is true, if a real and truly dangerous conspiracy were detected would anyone take Christians seriously at that point? Have we not spent our credibility and voice on mere ghosts?

<blockquote>Colossians 4:5 (NAS) Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity.

</blockquote>This point will be expanded in the last section concerning a message even more important than sounding the alarm of a real conspiracy. </a>




6) Conspiracy Theory versus Revelation
The theory of communism was built on a faulty premise and, thus, was doomed to not work in practice. Christians who believe in the Bible should be able to quickly apprehend that Conspiracy Theory is faulty at its core. Thus we should not be surprised at its failure in practice.


Somebody Forgot To Check Their Scriptures...


Fundamental to Conspiracy Theory is a basic view of the world. This view is defined by its adherents as the "Conspiratorial View" of history. This explanation of the course of history is pitted against the "Linear View" of history (or somesuch). These, we are told, are the only options! (This smacks of Marx&#39;s false dichotomy that only two classes existed.) But it is just not true. Dare we mention it, at least one other possible explanation of why things happen is the "Biblical View."

<blockquote>Amos 3:7 (NIV) Surely the Sovereign Lord does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.

</blockquote>And Scripture never mentions anything anywhere even approaching the scope of Conspiracy Theory.

In general, The Bible neither denies real human conspiracies nor suggests that they are a major factor in history. Scripture puts conspiracies where they belong: as an occasional and hard to maintain sideshow.

<blockquote>2 Samuel 15:12 (NIV) ... And so the conspiracy gained strength, and Absalom&#39;s following kept on increasing.

Acts 23:12 (NIV) The next morning the Jews formed a conspiracy and bound themselves with an oath not to eat or drink until they had killed Paul.

</blockquote>But never in the Bible are we encouraged to imagine that conspiracy is the grand explanation of history or the overarching issue of causality in human affairs. In fact, just the opposite is commanded.

<blockquote>Isaiah 8:12-13 (NIV) "Do not call conspiracy everything that these people call conspiracy; do not fear what they fear, and do not dread it. The Lord Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy, he is the one you are to fear, he is the one you are to dread."

</blockquote>The lesson seems to be that there are certain times that the temptation to blame what is happening on conspiracy or alliances should be distinctly avoided, by direct command of the Lord.

Beyond skewering the fundamental thesis of the "Conspiratorial View" (unless we are willing to accuse God of "missing it"), Scripture makes it plain that if we are near the "end of the age," which Christian Conspiracy Theory generally asserts, it is then in particular that we are clearly admonished NOT to be deceived into thinking that conspiracy is behind it. Anyone familiar with prophetic Scripture knows that God is very keen on letting us know that He is behind the events surrounding the first and second coming of Christ.

<blockquote>Psalms 2:1-2 (KJV) Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed....

</blockquote>Why indeed? A good question, eh? (Acts 4:28, Ps 2:4) Some answer this according to "the Gospel of Conspiracy Theory": that this is due to a human conspiracy. Some claim "ministries" spreading this distracting paranoia. But God, while lambasting many a real conspiracy throughout history, says it is not so. The following is representative of dozens of end-times passages:

<blockquote>Ezekiel 38:1-2,8 (NIV) "Son of man, prophesy... and say: This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, O Gog,... I will turn you around and drag you along. I will bring you from the far north and send you against the mountains of Israel. It is coming! It will surely take place, declares the Sovereign Lord.... "

</blockquote>God apparently thinks it important for us to know at the End of the Age that He is doing this, and it is of no human invention or scheme. Even if some have plans....

<blockquote>Psalms 33:10 (NIV) The Lord foils the plans of the nations; he thwarts the purposes of the peoples.

</blockquote>Is it not amazing that Scripture completely misses what Conspiracy Theory made popular? Boy did God blow this one! If He only knew what was "really going on." If He were only more "informed!"

So it is God versus the conspiracy buffs. Tough one, eh?

Who ya gonna believe nowadays?

<blockquote>Isaiah 8:12 (NIV) "Do not call conspiracy everything that these people call conspiracy; do not fear what they fear, and do not dread it."</blockquote><a href="http://" target="_blank">




7) "Conspiracy" in the Heavenlies?
The only grand "conspiracy" spoken of in Scripture is a SPIRITUAL one led by Satan. And it is no secret: it has been REVEALED to those with ears to hear. Thus, it is no "conspiracy" to Christians, but an open war against the gospel of Christ and His life in the kingdom of God on this earth.

Our Lord Jesus has defeated the enemy of our souls at the cross. While we have yet to see the fullness of this victory play out in time, we will. The ultimate defeat of Satan is as sure as the Word of God. For our enemy&#39;s time is short.

At a mere human level, Conspiratists have pontificated at length about Masonic cabals bent on ruining the very economy which they supposedly constructed, while completely missing Militant Islam&#39;s open agenda calling for civilization&#39;s death and destruction. Radical Muslim clerics scream "Death to America" in US Mosques and Universities and on the Internet, and openly plot to bring the US and then the world under Islamic rule, and not one Conspiratist takes them seriously before they actually strike a blow. Even non-Conspiratists missed the threat due to religious political correctness. (While a particular terrorist "cell" is a closely guarded military secret, Islamism&#39;s worldwide goals for Israel, the US, and modern civilization have been published and broadcast and ranted about for many decades. Yet even with all the funds and weapons and virulent hatred for us, it seemed politically dangerous to point out that Islamists had declared open war against us.) My goodness, even at the level of the here and now (John 3:11), we humans seem to have a propensity to dramatically miss the point of where the real threat is coming from. Are we not doing even worse in the spiritual by missing the nature of the war that we are in with such dalliances as Conspiracy Theory--in direct violation to scriptural revelation and emphasis?

Are we showing discernment and good judgment by recognizing who the real enemy is and where we are being attacked spiritually? What is history really about, and what battle is really going on in God&#39;s world? Is eternal judgment real? What, then, should our approach and overarching strategy to life be? How, then, should we live? If we are members of the "Kingdom of God", just what should we be focusing on? Are we looking up, or down--and getting that all wrong? How would Jesus rate our sense of apprehending the reality of things? Are we wiser then He? Wiser than all of the holy prophets of old?

Are we shooting our guns off into the air of Conspiracy Theory... while a real enemy stands behind us? Even among us? </a>




8) We Didn&#39;t Lose, They Cheated!
This section may be the most difficult for Conspiratist oriented Christians to accept, but may well be the explanation to the perverted attraction of Conspiracy Theories in the church, and why we think we need them.

Clearly and obviously, there are those who oppose what we Christians hold dear and actively promote what we think of as wicked. It should be noted that this battle is principally fought, lost, and won in an open battle in our culture, not via conspiratorial plotting.

Where we as Christians have lost ground or failed completely is in acquiescence or lack of resolve, rather than being unable to "break the code" of some back-room conspiratorial plot. The fight was not generally in secret, but in the open, and we did not even show up.


The Enemy Within


Perhaps part of the appeal of blaming things on conspiracies is that it assuages our own lack of concern and engagement in the public arena. Sure, we lost, but "Hey, they cheated!" Oddly enough, though, when we show up we do quite well, just as God promised. But when we fail to even try, we are tempted to accuse our opponents of "foul play" instead of reflecting objectively on the fact that we caved in, did not care, did not try, etc.

Where this gets nasty is where it becomes more than just a temporary meditation to relieve our consciences, and gets blown into a full-tilt philosophy. And this is what Conspiracy Theory is. "They" are pulling back-room strings with an unseen hand that makes it futile to even try. Why, we might even play into "their" hands, "they" are so clever. The only thing to do is to hunker down and protect our friends and family against the inevitable siege, or by laying so low that nobody takes notice of us, retreating further from being salt and light in our culture. None of the options coming from this fatalistic view are very good, frankly, and when the results in our society get inevitably worse, we go right back to blaming "them" instead of ourselves. And so it goes.

<blockquote>James 4:17 (NIV) Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn&#39;t do it, sins.

</blockquote>
Spiritual Wimps


Our spiritual enemy is winning a terrific battle against us if he can short circuit our zeal and eliminate our influence via the fatalism of Conspiracy Theories. Rather that being salt and light in spreading the Gospel of peace, we hide our lamps under a table so that "they" will not notice us. We bury our treasure in a bunker mentality of merely holding our own against the unassailable power of evil. With our consciences satisfied that the enemy is somehow cheating, we throw down our swords before the fight even starts.

The utility of Conspiracy Theory thus comes into focus. It shifts blame. It is a sophisticated excuse machine. This is how Hitler used it; this is how Nero used it; this is how we are using it. Has there even been a Conspiracy Theory concocted short of this purpose?

What could be a more obvious ploy by our spiritual enemy to thwart the life of Christ in us?

The tragic thing is that this attack comes not from without, but principally from within the church. And our itching ears and guilty consciences cannot seem to get enough of it.

Have we fallen so far from being "conquerors in Christ" that we need a systematic philosophy of paranoia? Is the life of Christ in us content to lay curled in fetal position in the corner reading another Conspiracy Theory book? Are we content to be losers quaking in the fear of men--in direct disobedience to our Lord? <a href="http://" target="_blank">




9) Slandering Our Enemies
<blockquote>Leviticus 19:16 (NIV) "Do not go about spreading slander among your people. Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor&#39;s life. I am the Lord."

Exodus 23:1 (NIV) "Do not spread false reports. Do not help a wicked man by being a malicious witness."

</blockquote>Instead of realizing the pragmatic, even convicting reasons why we have failed in so many ways to effect our culture, we accuse our enemies of cheating via conspiracy. The motive for this was discussed previously.


Fruit Inspection


<blockquote>Proverbs 18:8 (NIV) The words of a gossip are like choice morsels; they go down to a man&#39;s inmost parts.

</blockquote>The Scripture describes a "gossip" as one who connives and dreams up a "twist" that is compelling and winsome. There is a perverted sweetness to this deception that is the principal lure of committing this sin. "Yeah, THAT is it! So and so is doing such and such." The more divorced from the truth this is, the more outlandish the slander, the better...

<blockquote>Matthew 15:19 (NIV) "For out of the heart come evil thoughts... false testimony, slander. These are what make a man &#39;unclean&#39;...."

Proverbs 18:8 (NAS) The words of a talebearer are like tasty trifles....

</blockquote>Like all sin, slander and gossip can be fun in the moment. But like all sin, there is a price to be paid later. The price here is in defamation of character to the real-life people and organizations, and in self-delusion and inability to discern the truth for those who continue in it.

<blockquote>1 Peter 2:1 (NIV) Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind.

Ephesians 4:31 (NIV) Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.

</blockquote>We are told in some detail by God how to think and deal with rulers and government in Scripture. And consider that these Scriptures were written during a time when leaders and government were much worse than now.

<blockquote>Titus 3:1-2 (NIV) Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, to SLANDER no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility towards all men.

</blockquote>Do the wild accusations and projected phobias and fears of Conspiracy Theory pass this test? You be the judge.

The bottom line is that "Christian" Conspiracy Theory makes about as much sense as "Christian Racism." Both are forbidden in Scripture.

<blockquote>1 Peter 2:17 (NIV) Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honour the king.</blockquote></a>




10) Making Idols of Mere Men
Conspiracy Theory practitioners are miles away from "honoring the king," or showing "proper respect" for leaders. To fill this natural void, there is a backlash into worship and fear of imaginary leaders instead.


The Gods Must Be Crazy...


It used to be that leaders promoted a facade of divinity and idolatry--erecting idols of themselves, demanding worship, and the like--and they still do so in some parts of the world. Though this is rare in public life in the US, the reflex seems so ingrained in us that we must create make-believe "conspiracy leaders" to worship when social conventions change and we see our public or elected leaders so obviously groping. "It must be an act to lull us. They really are in control. They really are gods!" Nowadays, "we the people" prop up the idols. Certain carnal instincts die hard. But these Conspiracy Theory idols, like all others, will be toppled and shattered.


Why Dilbert Is Funny


At a local and experiential level, we all know the problems of position and responsibility. The higher the position, the more impossible to process all the information, to take everything into account, to please everyone, etc. That is why it is nice to dream of being in charge, but harder to sleep when you are.

There is hardly a profession where human limitations are more stark than in leadership. This is why "manager jokes" strike a chord in us. These barbs point out the hopeless situation most managers are in, diffusing with humor our exasperation at their inability to "get it," listen, solve ALL the problems, or whatever.

Our ability to laugh at these jokes demonstrates that--at least intuitively--we know the "problem" that our leaders face with their limitations as humans. This being the case, we are enjoined to pray for them and show them proper respect for the responsibilities they bear.

But for the Conspiratist, who can see this drama first-hand at their own job, city counsel, etc., there is a different set of rules for world leaders. These are a different breed, somehow. To listen to the Conspiracy buffs, it becomes clear that you must believe that certain people or groups possess superhuman powers of intelligence, time management, persuasion, influence, stealth, etc. These "puppeteers" have powers that would make Superman look like a weakling.

Up close, we see people for what they really are. At a distance, they must be gods!

This is clearly idolatry, and a rather ridiculous type at that. And again, we must be honest and admit that idol-making is great fun, and so is the reveling around the constructed image. But this makes God especially mad.

<blockquote>1 Corinthians 10:14 (Wey) Therefore, my dear friends, avoid all connection with the worship of idols.

</blockquote>The mythology of creating imaginary superhumans that act as objects to terrify our imaginations and excuse our failures is not something that a Christian should have any part of.

<blockquote>Luke 12:4-5 (Wey) "But to you who are my friends I say, Be not afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do nothing further. I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who after killing has power to throw into Gehenna. Yes, I say to you, fear him."

</blockquote>It might be countered that Conspiracy Theory believers are not gripped with the fear of real or imaginary human leaders, but demonic spirits--even Satan--who animate these people. But this is even worse! Instead of fearing God or honoring the temporal king, we now find ourselves emotionally and spiritually prostrated before demons and Satan, trembling for them!

<blockquote>Isaiah 57:11 (NKJ) "And of whom have you been afraid, or feared, that you have lied and not remembered Me, nor taken it to your heart? Is it not because I have held My peace from of old that you do not fear Me?" </blockquote>Shall we dance around the golden calf of Conspiracy Theory and its constructors, or attend to the Word of the Lord and His Kingdom among us?

<blockquote>Matthew 6:33 (KJV) But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness...

</blockquote>Resonating to Conspiracy Theories is a clear indication that we are carnally minded, and not even to the "real world" (which would be bad enough) but to an idolatrous fantasy world of delusion and paranoia.

<blockquote>Luke 17:20-21 (NAS) "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed; nor will they say, &#39;Look, here it is!&#39; or, &#39;There it is!&#39; For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

Philippians 3:20 (NAS) For our citizenship is in heaven...

</blockquote>Brothers and sisters, let us repent. Let us turn our minds from these dark meditations to the Word of God, and begin now to work and pray in accordance with His eternal and permanent kingdom.

Which kingdom do our private thoughts and feelings reveal we are vested in? <a href="http://" target="_blank">




11) Ideas Have Consequences
There were pervasive rumors running rampant before WW2 concerning the Jews. One of note was that Jews were purportedly using Gentile blood in the making of the Passover Matzos. These and other rumors were so outlandish and ignorant that they did not seem worthy of serious response. They were so ridiculous and divorced from reality that no one bothered to dispute them. So they became "common knowledge."

<blockquote>2 Peter 2:12 (NKJ) But these... speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption.

</blockquote>We often wonder what went so wrong in Germany that an entire segment of the population (many professing to be Christians!) would willfully and enthusiastically participate in the day to day executions of the holocaust. We are not going to suggest here that the ONLY reason this happened were the rumors, gossip, and slander running rampant in Germany unchecked for decades beforehand, but certainly these were a major factor in creating the climate that would allow, and even justify, the mayhem and shame that resulted.

We, of course, are much superior to the Germans, and immune to the effects of outrageous stories and lies coursing through our minds for decades, unchallenged.

The one thing we learn from history, it appears, is that we can never learn from history. </a>




12) Credulity and Witness
<blockquote>Proverbs 14:15 (NIV) A simple man believes anything, but a prudent man gives thought to his steps.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (NIV) Test everything. Hold on to the good.

</blockquote>A casual survey of rumors coursing through the Christian community over the last few decades is not encouraging evidence that we are "testing all things." Perhaps this overview will jog a few memories?

I) Did you know that as a residue of the miracle of the creation of woman that man has one less rib than woman as an eternal reminder? This Christian legend still persists in sermons, homilies, and wedding ceremonies, despite the fact that it is not true. Men have the same number of ribs as women.

II) The FCC has received over 30 million pieces of mail protesting a petition supposedly authored by Madalyn Murray O&#39;Hare to remove all Christian broadcasting from the airways. The embarrassing thing is... that no such petition or issue exists. But this does not stop copies of pamphlets and counterpetitions from circulating and being promoted. Try as the FCC might, the rumor cannot be quelled. The FCC even has a "religious petition" disclaimer option when you call the computerized switchboard and, now, a posting on the FCC website (see link section at end of article).

III) In the early 80s, the periodic alignment of the planets was going to torque the earth, causing earthquakes, tidal waves, etc. Have the pastors and teachers who promoted this bogus theory apologized or repented? The fact that those who made an industry of this error are still revered as established prophecy "experts" among us, showing no sign of repentance, circumspection, or humility, is perhaps the greatest scandal of this unfortunate episode.

IV) A rumor keeps recurring every few years that executives at certain large corporations have appeared on TV talk shows admitting to being Satanists. This slander ends up having a commercial motive and has led to several lawsuits. While the source of this particular rumor has been traced (and prosecuted, see link section for more on this) to certain Amway distributors, many of these also claim to be Christians, and it must be admitted that this slander has overflowed into many non-Amway Christian minds and mouths as well.

V) In the mid 80s, a new threat emerged in the "ten nation" European Economic Community (EEC), now termed the European Union (EU). This was portrayed as everything from a trade-war juggernaut to a fulfillment of prophecy. Despite all the hype, the economic progress after a decade has been modest, to put it generously. It actually started with six member nations and, eventually, passed through ten; when the eleventh and twelfth nations joined, it did not stop the interpretation of the EU as the nefarious "ten horn" alliance prophesied in Scripture. Luckily, the USA started with thirteen, not having to pass through the dreaded number ten, or we might also have been identified with Daniel 7 and Revelation 17. Unfortunately for the EU the stigma of this "teaching" absurdly persists. In the minds of some evangelical Christians, the EU sort of got "stuck" at ten, even though they now have fifteen member states. Again, the teachers who promote/promoted this error show no signs of remorse or humility, but are now well established as prophecy "experts" in the body of Christ.

VI) Another recurrent Christian legend is that of the "beast" computer in Brussels (or wherever). This first surfaced in the late 1970s, where the idea was to track every person in the entire world as a fulfillment of the 666 prophecy. We can now assess this from the cooler position of hindsight. Consider that the educational computers used in modern elementary schools NOW would run circles around the best computer technology available back THEN, in speed, memory, reliability, and disc storage. Imagine running the world from the paltry PC that your kid learns his math on! It was no less absurd back in the 1970s to people who knew better. But to point this out made you either not "in the know" or part of the "conspiracy."

VII) At a restaurant a few years back where we were splitting the check, $20 bills were confiscated and the plastic "security strips" (to thwart counterfeiting) woven in vertically (just under the U of the United States of...) were wiggled loose and pulled out from the top by a well-meaning minister present. When asked why this defacing of currency was necessary, he replied, "These strips allow the government to track how much money we have--and our movements--via satellite. By removing them, we can foil their plan."

VIII) The latest and most persistent Christian rumor, and the subject of this article, is that an overwhelming, worldwide, international conspiracy exists--manipulating nearly everything that we see--which is spearheaded variously by the Bilderbergers, the DuPonts, the Rockefellers, the CFR, the Trilateral Commission, black helicopters, and the ever popular "Illuminati." This dark fantasy is called "Conspiracy Theory," and has become the darling of Christians.

IX) Did you know that Jesus Christ came, died, and rose again on the third day, according to the Scripture? Yes, this important truth comes to you from the same people that brought you the above.

<blockquote>Romans 2:24 (NIV) As it is written: "God&#39;s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."

</blockquote><A name=C>


Conclusion

<blockquote>

2 Corinthians 5:20 (KJV) Now then we are ambassadors for Christ...

1 Thessalonians 2:4 (NKJ) But as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, even so we speak...

1 Corinthians 4:1-2 (NIV) So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God. Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful.

1 Timothy 6:20-21 (Wey) Guard the truths entrusted to you, shunning irreligious and frivolous talk, and controversy with what is falsely called &#39;knowledge&#39;; of which some have spoken boastfully in connection with the true faith, and have erred. Lamentations 3:40 (NIV) Let us examine our ways and test them, and let us return to the Lord.

</blockquote>

[Nambo]

Now I would sum conspiracy theories like this Back to Basics.

Many people tell lies in order to deiceve people, even polititions would you belive.
Some people who bother looking, or who have a specialist knowledge, professors of physics, engineers etc, can see things dont add up so realise they are being lied to.

In order to protect these deciepts, the lyers behind them use terms like "conspiracy theorists" and attach negative associations to them in order to discredit those that would expose them.

We saw an example of this form of manipulation in the recent BBC 911 conspiracy files documentary where they brought in the guy who produced the X-Files to tell the public that anybody who doesnt belive in the official version is somehow mentally deficient.

Now personally this sort of bullying manipulation makes me even more sure these guys are trying to hide something.

Interesting scriptures you quoted, where they written to stop people questioning the activities of governments?
Perhaps if people had belived the conspiracy theories about Adolf Hitler, such as he was building up a personal army far greater than the regular German army and he planned to take over Europe, or that those dead Polish soldiers who invaded Germany at the radio station wher&#39;nt Polish at all but German prisoners dressed as Poles, that the Reighstag fire wasnt started by Communists, well maybe the Germans wouldnt have given Hitler the power to do what he did and millions of lives could have been saved.
Or do you consider the Bible is telling us that this would have been a bad thing?

And whilst I admit it could seem that Christians shouldnt be bothered about the affaairs of man as they wait for Gods government,
my view of what a Christian should be doing is showing people that Mans rule is full of lies and corruption that leads to un-happiness and death, that only Gods rule is to be trusted and worthy of faith and hope, so by exposing mans lies, I hope it will turn people to chose Gods rule instead.

I still wonder about the motives of people who so desperatly try to shut up our critsism of mankinds rulership on a Christian forum instead of just ignoring these threads if it holds no interest for them.

Soldiers of whom I wonder?

[BackToBasics]

Nambo all I can say is that im not desperatly trying to do anything . Certainly not on the subject of human rulership . Mind you if you voted or did other things in line with social responsbility then your arguments might hold more water . All very easy to critisise .

You said "We saw an example of this form of manipulation in the recent BBC 911 conspiracy files documentary where they brought in the guy who produced the X-Files to tell the public that anybody who doesnt belive in the official version is somehow mentally deficient"

Perhaps this guy who worked on the x files program and was himself implicated in a conspiracy theory should not have been allowed to say his five minite peace on that bbc program . Perhaps he should not have been allowed to speak in public or defend himself againt storys he was the subject of but knew were not true? How dare the BBC allow people the freedom of speach ! Of course the BBC were not saying that people were mentally deficiant he was .

YOu also said "Many people tell lies in order to deiceve people, even polititions would you belive.
Some people who bother looking, or who have a specialist knowledge, professors of physics, engineers etc, can see things dont add up so realise they are being lied to."

Does that include those scientists you say that steel loses half its stregth at the half way mark to the steels melting point which is not fixed by the way because its an alloy which means different proportions and types of metal mixed together ? I guess those ones with specialist knowledge dont count if what they say doesnt agree with you .

Your use of the word bullying is strange. Were you forced to watch the BBCs program conspiracys?

You also say :

"Perhaps if people had belived the conspiracy theories about Adolf Hitler, such as he was building up a personal army far greater than the regular German army and he planned to take over Europe, or that those dead Polish soldiers who invaded Germany at the radio station wher&#39;nt Polish at all but German prisoners dressed as Poles, that the Reighstag fire wasnt started by Communists, well maybe the Germans wouldnt have given Hitler the power to do what he did and millions of lives could have been saved."

I have a counter idea . Perhaps if you had been there when Hitler was doing this you could have started a political party of you own and stopped him with your insight into these matters . Mind you the people did belive in the conspiracy theorys but those spread by Hitler and his party because even though at the time he wasnt as powerful as the leaders who were in power before him his conspiracy theors got him into power and were obviosly more powerful .Strange. Of course that was along time ago now but nothing to stop you from starting a political party of your own is there !

You said:
"I still wonder about the motives of people who so desperatly try to shut up our critsism of mankinds rulership on a Christian forum instead of just ignoring these threads if it holds no interest for them."

Paranoia is a way of life for some isnt it.

You said :

"And whilst I admit it could seem that Christians shouldnt be bothered about the affaairs of man as they wait for Gods government,
my view of what a Christian should be doing is showing people that Mans rule is full of lies and corruption that leads to un-happiness and death, that only Gods rule is to be trusted and worthy of faith and hope, so by exposing mans lies, I hope it will turn people to chose Gods rule instead."

You didnt properly read the article above did you? Says nothing there about not exposing mans lies . There was however a very good section touching on the subject of idolotry.

[Jeshurun]

Well I read the article, and it&#39;s not the first time I&#39;ve seen it. Glaring out at me is that it is promoting the same lie as the governments, that there is this shady, religiously fanatic sect of Muslims who will blow themselves up to kill any American or Infidel for the sake of Allah. What is does not tell you is that the whole thing was invented by the CIA and other covert groups, and these "terrorists" are trained and funded by the same people who fund both sides of every war, and there is documented proof of this. The "War on Terror" is the premise that these leaders are using to establish their New World Order.

Speaking of paranoia, their goal is to make everyone paranoid of some radical Muslim nutjob who might make his way into Penn Station or the local shopping mall, and it&#39;s working.

Every time there is a short period of peace between Israel and Palestine, some suicide bomber blows up more Israelis, and the war goes on. The truth is, Israelis and Arabs have no natural conflict, but these terrorist attacks keep renewing the hostilities and there can never be peace. What people are blind to, because of the media, are things such as the unnatural relationship between Arafat and the Pope, and this is the key.

And all this fits perfectly into prophecy, and yet we should ignore it and go along with the lemmings and believe that our biggest fear could be lurking anywhere, in some secret "cell" just waiting for a trigger word. This is the pack of lies brother Nambo speaks about. These secret society occultists are the ones with the possessed minds, and the ones with the Satanic trigger words, and they are the ones in control of the governments.

So another thing they accomplish by this is that they use these things to put Islam and Judaism in an evil light, fomenting hatred, and since they control the media, they can crank it up to whatever level they feel like, whenever they want. Its all about propaganda, and they started two world wars this way.

Next in the crosshairs is Christianity, and that propaganda is already in gear.

[BackToBasics]

Jeshurun I think you may missed the whole point of the article even though you have read it before . It certainly not trying to promote a lie .Its trying to promote being Christian by having things in balance and the keeping the focus on Christ .

Regarding the Muslim part in the article much of what is says seems to be true . If you look at the history of the RADICAL muslim movenemt it indeed does go back for many decades as the article says . The article is making the point that the obvious is missed while the conspiracy views take over without the backing of much in the way of evidence .

I could say that the Iranian leeder has said he wants to nuke Israel . Or bring about the end times . Has he? Certainly seems like he has. Of course he must be an American agent. Well i hope it rains so that his dark face paint drips off so that we can all know that the Muslim faith doesnt have any followers who hate .

Mind you i cant see much difference between Muslim fundermetalist and Christian ones .

[Shibboleth]

Unfreakingbelieveable!

Israel and Arabs have been at odds with each other for way longer then the US has been a country.


Duet. 25

17 (http://) “There should be a remembering of what Am´a·lek did to you in the way when YOU were coming out of Egypt, 18 (http://) how he met you in the way and proceeded to strike in the rear of you all those straggling after you, while you were exhausted and weary; and he did not fear God. 19 (http://) And it must occur that when Jehovah your God has given you rest from all your enemies round about in the land that Jehovah your God is giving you as an inheritance to take possession of it, you should wipe out the mention of Am´a·lek from under the heavens. You must not forget.[/b]

Look at that. Looks like Amalek was using terrorist styled atacks on the Israelites.

Wow maybe it was a covert CIA cover up. Wait that was 4000 years ago. The US of A did not exist, yet we have Arabs against Israel.

Has anyone here actually checked into what fanatical Muslims believe? If you base your "facts" off of conspiracy theorist websites you are doing yourself a disservice. Fanatical Muslims twist the Quran. They twist the scripture to fit their views. They believe that they have to kill the greater Satan. They feel that anyone who is not a muslim must convert or die. The CIA did not put this view in their heads. The CIA did not tell them to bomb innocents. It&#39;s their own twisted interpertations that told them that. Much like many of the twisted versions of Christianity mis-interpert the scriptures. The next thing that you will probably say is that the CIA made militant Christianity. When in fact that created themselves out of distrust of the government.

[Jeshurun]

What do ancient natural Jews have to do with modern Israelis? The Israelis are actually a people brought in from somewhere in one of the Stans, or Russia, I have to research it to get the actual area, as I dont remember, but they are not Jews. They were brought in to populate the modern nation state, and have no ancient legal claim to the land. And it is true, they had no natural conflict before the nation-state came about.

The establishment of the nation-state of Israel was the primary reason for both world wars. And the eventual mutual destruction between Arabs and Israelis is also vital to the purposes of the coming world government.

[Shibboleth]

Jesh you are correct about the Russian Jews. The reason why the European Jews were given the land of Israel was because the world felt sorry for them because of what happened during WWII. WWI had no implications on the Jews. There was no holocaust in WWI. It was WWII that changed the world more significantly then the previous world war.

I am trying to figure out this comment you made :


And it is true, they had no natural conflict before the nation-state came about.[/b]

Do you mean the Arabs had no conflict with the European Jews or Jews in general. Because all through history the Arabs and Jews have had deadly conflicts.

[Jeshurun]

Dear Shib

I should not post while at work, I get rushed and sometimes don&#39;t clarify things, but I sent you a PM to explain.

Dear BackToBasics

I understand what the article is getting at. We should not let conspiracies consume our life, it is not healthy. But I would like to explain to you why I am so interested in them, it can be pretty much summed up here:

¹³ And I saw three unclean inspired expressions [that looked] like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the wild beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. ¹⁴ They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and perform signs, and they go forth to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.

Obviously, there are political and religious entities lying to mankind together in unison. This requires a conspiracy. I have a deep interest in it. When I discover how Satan&#39;s tentacles work their way around the earth, it makes me want to expose it, I can&#39;t help it but I also can&#39;t apologize for it. Anyone can believe whatever they want. I however, have seen enough conclusive proof to believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that Satan&#39;s throne is in or somewhere near the Vatican and I do believe that this is the identity of the false prophet.

Maybe I could be surprised, but I haven&#39;t discovered anything more evil in all my research. It seems to be where all the money ends up and where all the orders come from.

Agape

Lou

[olrono]

<span style="font-family:Times New Roman">Always seek accurate knowledge! Always seek the facts, remember that theories should be born from the preponderance of the evidence. Don’t forget that our enemies know the truth and want to conceal it from us. The ultimate goal from their perspective is to get us to take The Mark and remember, there is nothing new “under the sun”.

[BackToBasics]

My Fear olrono is that this truth that you think you have might in fact propell people towards those who would place the mark of the beast on people in the future . Satan is very good at the double bluf game . The possibility exists that in exsposing these things you might in fact be helping him .

[Shibboleth]

My Fear olrono is that this truth that you think you have might in fact propell people towards those who would place the mark of the beast on people in the future . Satan is very good at the double bluf game . The possibility exists that in exsposing these things you might in fact be helping him .[/b]



Exactly B2B. We should be pushing people towards Jehovah&#39;s light. When people see the light of Jehovah they will understand more fully what is going on. We should pay Ceasar&#39;s things to Ceasar and God&#39;s things to God&#39;s. We should be in subjection to the authorities, but we should also remain faithful to God. To some that is a huge step especially if you live under tyranny. But when you live with God&#39;s views and purposes in mind you think clearer. Things become more open and you understand more things.

I know personally I have a hard time going out in service. When winter hits it makes me depressed, but I try to keep active talking about Jehovah in one form or another. We have to turn people to Jehovah. He is the only one that can save us. All the knowledge in the world (including learning about conspiracies) just doesn&#39;t cut it. The true knowledge and the true wisdom only comes form Jehovah. And since He is a God of Order and not disorder we know there are no conspiracies that He cannot foil and we know that conspiracies don&#39;t come from Him.

Conspiracies have always started with Satan. And they will end with Satan. He is the god of the lie and the master of the coverup. It is dangerous ground when we focus all our energy into searching for truths amongst the conspiracies. It takes away from worship to Jehovah. Alot of people&#39;s arguements for conspiracies center around them trying to find "truths". But isn&#39;t that what being a Witness is all about? Finding truths? The truths we find as Witnesses are Godly truths. They are wisdom from God Himself. that is the truths we must be searching for and not something that may or may not be based on fact. We know what is written in the Bible is based off of facts. Jehovah hasn&#39;t hidden anything from us. There is no conspiracy with Jehovah. He wants us to live that is why he gave us the instructions and warnings in the bible.

Yes, it is healthy for us to look for the signs and watch for the leadup to Jesus&#39; prescence. it is healthy to read the paper and to keep on the watch. What is unhealthy for us to do is obsess about it to the point we believe everything we read. I am guilty of obsessing about the news. We as a Christian brother(sister)hood have to keep upbuilding one another. The goal of all of us should be to help each other get into the new system and strengthening one another&#39;s faith in Jehovah and not strengthening a "faith" in conspiracies. I do think that, yes, we should be aware of what is going on in the world. And I think that the majority of the Witnesses today are aware. i talk with brothers all the time at the hall and they know, they see.

Conspiracies tear down institutions and beliefs. they tear down people&#39;s faiths. Yes some conspiracies may be true and I acknowledge that fact. But as JW&#39;s we have a responsibility to upbuild and not tear down. It&#39;s Jesus&#39;s responsibility through his Father Jehovah to tear down the institutions and the Governments.

Believe me, I am not one to toot my horn. I have my problems and I have my thorns in my side. All I ask is that you take a step back and ask yourselves if you are being upbuilding or if you are not. It is a personal question you can only ask yourselves. I am not naming names cause I know that I personally have to make alot of changes. I just want people here to take to heart that I mean the best for you and that I truely care about every JW in the whole world and even though I feel so unworthy in front of Jehovah, I still have faith that He will change the world.

Your brother,

Shibboleth

[Nambo]

Conspiracies have always started with Satan. And they will end with Satan. He is the god of the lie and the master of the coverup. It is dangerous ground when we focus all our energy into searching for truths amongst the conspiracies. It takes away from worship to Jehovah.


Conspiracies tear down institutions and beliefs. they tear down people&#39;s faiths. Yes some conspiracies may be true and I acknowledge that fact. But as JW&#39;s we have a responsibility to upbuild and not tear down. It&#39;s Jesus&#39;s responsibility through his Father Jehovah to tear down the institutions and the Governments.

Your brother,

Shibboleth[/b]

Firstly to us who bothered looking with our own eyes, these are facts, thats what the thread is about, conspiracies are when a group, ie the government, get together to conspire to carry out some secret and manevolent act, conspiracy theorists are those who wish to expose these acts.

So you are right Shibboleth in saying conspiracies are from Satan, so I cannot understand why you dont want Gods servants to expose the decietfull machinations of the Devil?

When you say "Conspiracies tear down instituations and beliefs", I presume you mean conspiracy theorists tear down?
Now these institutions and beliefs we tear down are the Satanic institutions that hide behind the facarde of democracy, the beliefs we tear down our the beliefs that mankind CAN govern his own steps and that we will soon be united in one glorified humanity where we will be able to prounounce peacae and security, without God! thank you very much.

So, as a JW, I wonder why you want to protect the above beliefs?
When you do the door to door work, do you not tell people that the whole world wasnt meant to be like this?, that it is all based on a Satanic deciept and try and explain to people who they should trust in Jehovahs rulership instead?

What about the conspiracy theory of evolution, that there was no God and we made ourselves, do you not try and correct peoples thinking or do you worry about the time spent reading the Creation book instaed of just the Bible or dont you want to "tear down thier institutions and beliefs"?

When do you propose to expose Satans deciept to the world?, when they are all eagerly waiting in line to worship the wild beast and recieve its mark?, dont you think it might be a bit late then?

Do you consider the Prophets wrong as well?, shouldnt they have just left it all to Jehovah to do?

[Shibboleth]

Nambo you totally missed the whole point of my post. I am not going to say anymore on this issue since it is totally starting to aggrevate me to no end.

[Jeshurun]

The true knowledge and the true wisdom only comes form Jehovah. And since He is a God of Order and not disorder we know there are no conspiracies that He cannot foil and we know that conspiracies don&#39;t come from Him.

Conspiracies have always started with Satan. And they will end with Satan. He is the god of the lie and the master of the coverup.[/b]

Sorry but I can&#39;t agree with this reasoning, because this conspiracy is actually being ultimately guided by Jehovah because it is part of his plan to bring about his sanctioned executor of judgment on the nations, the modern Chaldean. Since it ultimately fulfills his purpose, I can only see that exposing the complexity of it would only be a reflection upon Jehovah&#39;s unbounded wisdom and can only build faith, not tear down.

Agape

Lou

[BackToBasics]

Alot of this resoning seems to be built on the idea that this "mark" what ever it turns out to be will somehow be forced on people without their knowledge . Or if it is with their knowledge then its not because they are bad people in their heart but because they will have been fooled into it .

Do some really think that Jehovah will detroy anyone who is fooled into something and ignore their heart as to if it is good or bad in that secret person inside? Some might use the example of Eve as proof that people can be fooled into doing something thats bad . True enough but Eve was only fooled because she belived she would not die as a result .She new full well that she was disobeying the command to not eat of the fruit . That is why she lost her life and it wasnt because she was decived . It was because she new what she was doing was a sin . Will not the same priciple be applied even more so to imperfect ones when the mark of the beast is active?

If it is true that God is not unrighteous as to forget the love people have for him and their work then why will he erternaly detroy such ones if they have been fooled?

No one will be fooled into excepting the mark of the beast because this mark is symbolic .It is not a literal mark . Its a mark that means they have chosen with full knowledge to reject God and his people. The only sin that cannot be forgiven is of course the sin against the holy spirit . How can anyone sin against the holy spirit if the spirit is not obvious and evident . It was of course in Christs day with the resurections and miricles on mass . That is why Christ spoke to the pharasees as tho they were going to be subjects of the second death and not enter the kingdom . Mathew 23:15

Is was as tho the pharasees had the mark of beast on them . They had the number six written on them three times because they wanted to remain in the sixth day so to speak . Man was created on the sixth day and never entered the day of rest wich would have meant that Adam would have lived over a thousand years because he would have been allowed to eat of the tree of life . That is why the Jews had a sabbath because it was a symbol of the thousand years to come under Christ rulership . So that man might in that time eat of the threes of life and thus enter the knigdom of God by its gates and get what Adam lost .

Six is not a literal mark but a symbol of knowingly disobeying Jehovah . It wont count as a mark in Gods eyes unless they do in fact know exactly what they are doing. Will be hard not to know when the holy spirit is poured out again on a global scale as in the time of Christ . Eve wasnt fooled into disobeying God either . So this whole idea of being fooled and in inocent ignorance being Judged for erternal destruction by Jehovah is fastasy . I hope that kind of fear in not the fruit of the labouring on and on about consparacy theorys but I fear it is . If people think they might be fooled by Satan into erternal death they might might make self fulfilling prophesy come true . If you think you are dead already then what can that one do about it !

Dont get fooled into fear twice over .

[b] and they may come back to their proper senses out from the snare of the Devil, seeing that they have been caught alive by him for the will of that one.

I imagine that the 2 Timothy scripture applies to members of the illiminati as well? Or has the judgment happened already?

[Jeshurun]

Just wanted to clarify my thoughts that Jehovah foresaw Satan&#39;s scheme, and has been thwarting attempts to bring in the NWO sooner than God has planned, ever since the Tower of Babel. So Jehovah keeps his safety valve on Satan and allows certain things and thwarts others, until His time. It can do nothing but glorify Jehovah to see how he uses Satan&#39;s own scheme to lead him into his own trap, and that of his counterfeit kingdom.

[Berean]

"For the thoughts of you people are not my thoughts, nor are my ways your ways," is the utterance of Jehovah. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. For just as the pouring rain descends, and the snow, from the heavens and does not return to that place, unless it actually saturates the earth and makes it produce and sprout, and seed is actually given to the sower and bread to the eater, so my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it. - Isaiah 55:8-11

Jehovah&#39;s thoughts are higher than our thoughts. We cannot ever hope to thoroughly understand his plans (Romans 11:33). If we really knew all about how Jehovah is going to bring down our enemy, wouldn&#39;t Satan already have figured that out as well? He also has an Internet connection, you know; he reads all this about conspiracy theories, and perhaps he has also put it into the hearts of some to put this information on conspiracy websites to divert us from what he is actually planning; and more importantly, it diverts our attention from serving Jah.

[juffowup]

<div class='quotemain'>And for sure the balance isn&#39;t as now, where fully HALF the threads in the general discussion/last days topics are about NWO/911 stuff. I just counted, and that&#39;s a pretty accurate tally.[/b]

With all due respect, Juffowup, I counted 6 threads out of 124 that are about "NWO/911 stuff", and I was trying to be liberal. Can you please point out the other 56?
[/b][/quote]

I&#39;m talking about the front page of each forum, not sum total, and if the General forum is light on conspiracy threads, the Living in the Last Days forum makes up for the lack. Add to the fact that there are other seemingly innocuous threads, such as "Music&#39;s impact on today&#39;s youth" get drug into it. Hmmm... who was it that hijacked that thread with conspiracy jumbo? I think his name rhymed with "Feshurun".

[juffowup]

Ok, this is my final say on the matter. Things can either change, or they don&#39;t, matters not to me.

The problem with all conspiracy theories is they rely on a truly vast suppression of ideas and communication. Thousands, maybe tens of thousands of people would have to remain silent or be silenced to make it work. This from a government that can&#39;t even suppress the fact that a low level aid lied about what reporters he told a story to. Oh, and a government powerless to plant a few WMD in Iraq that would have cemented almost limitless power for itself. Exactly how do these facts fit into the conspiracy? How many people do you think it would take to pull something on the order of 9/11 off? It boggles the mind.

Second, a personal problem I have with some of you, aside from the conspiracy stuff, is statements like "Perhaps if people had belived the conspiracy theories about Adolf Hitler, such as he was building up a personal army far greater than the regular German army and he planned to take over Europe, or that those dead Polish soldiers who invaded Germany at the radio station wher&#39;nt Polish at all but German prisoners dressed as Poles, that the Reighstag fire wasnt started by Communists, well maybe the Germans wouldnt have given Hitler the power to do what he did and millions of lives could have been saved."

This is the height of foolishness. Millions of lives could be saved, for what? To die meaninglessly a few years later due to old age, sickness, or accident? People cannot make *this world* a better place. One political system is not better than any other. I feel many of you brothers are too attached to the political system of things and this is just one manifestation of it. Really, I worry about the lot of you. Talking about Waco and Ruby Ridge? What&#39;s next, protesting abortion clinics? Marching at a demonstration at a Republican convention? I mean, at least with abortion, you&#39;d be fighting a gross immorality that no one is even attempting to hide. It&#39;s right in plain sight, no conspiracy needed.

Once you know there is no hope in human governments, that is all you need to know. You&#39;ll never know the day nor the hour, and it will come as a thief in the night. I say it again, this "research" you are doing is vanity. Nobody has you to point out otherwise. Just statements like "exposing the government lies is important!" But you&#39;re doing it right here where everyone already agrees with what you&#39;re preaching. You are exposing nothing, if anything, you are attempting to add an exclamation point to a fact we already all know. So make a website, go door to door about it, whatever. Though it is strange indeed the powerful shadow governments allow you to expose their secrets like this in an open forum. Or indeed any of the other highly traffic&#39;d websites that are also dedicated to exposing the truth about what is going on with the governments.

Or do it here, but don&#39;t get bent out of shape when people don&#39;t care or want to argue about it with you.

I&#39;m just a simple reader, I don&#39;t have any say. This is just my two cents about what direction I&#39;d like to see the board move to, and my honest evaluation of the activities that go on here.

[Nambo]

Jehovah&#39;s thoughts are higher than our thoughts. We cannot ever hope to thoroughly understand his plans (Romans 11:33). If we really knew all about how Jehovah is going to bring down our enemy, wouldn&#39;t Satan already have figured that out as well? He also has an Internet connection, you know; he reads all this about conspiracy theories, and perhaps he has also put it into the hearts of some to put this information on conspiracy websites to divert us from what he is actually planning; and more importantly, it diverts our attention from serving Jah.[/b]

So, its stooped this low, now we are agents of Satan for not keeping our mouths shut,

How would you like it if somebody accused you of being so protective of human rulership because subconsiously you didnt want it to end?

And Juffowup, you said "This is the height of foolishness. Millions of lives could be saved, for what? To die meaninglessly a few years later due to old age, sickness, or accident?"

Did you really mean to say that?, sure, as Christians we belive in the ressurection, but isnt it still a Christian requirement?, to belive in the sanctity of life, besides, those people suffered horribly.

[BackToBasics]

Nambo if an apostle of Christ was an agent of Satan and Satan spoke through another apsotle then in the way we are acting on here at the moment we might all be agents of Satan.

[Jeshurun]

Why is it that those who claim to be so upset by these threads are drawn to them like SUPERCONDUCTOR MAGNETS?

SATAN DOES NOT EXPOSE HIMSELF, THIS IS ABSURD.

This is called "WATCHTOWERISM". The INTERNET is EVIL, don&#39;t discuss anything having to do with Satan, don&#39;t try to THINK on your own. Don&#39;t pay any attention to conspiracy theories, because you just might discover that Satan&#39;s world is constructed just like the MOTHER ORGANIZATION, with a few ruling elite blinding the masses, A FREEMASON PYRAMID STRUCTURE. Do not allow yourselves to get sidetracked from what is LIFE SAVING SPIRITUAL (FILTHY VOMIT) FOOD, just read our magazines and books day and night and DO NOT LOOK AT THE WORLD AROUND YOU. Do not dare to look into the DEEP THINGS OF SATAN, because HE MAY POSSESS YOU! Just keep your mouth shut and follow our orders, and DONT EVEN THINK THAT YOU CAN INQUIRE OF ANYTHING OUTSIDE OF WHAT WE DICTATE, or you will be DISFELLOWSHIPPED.

By the way, I just re-read the essay, "The King of the North CONSPIRES for World Dominion. How enlightening it is!

And worst of all, JUDGING OTHERS AS TO HOW THEY SPEND THEIR TIME.

This site is not only for us, THERE ARE OTHERS OUT THERE LOOKING FOR THE TRUTH. If this site resembles the BEHEMOTH OF BROOKLYN, it benefits NO ONE.

I hereby vow to Jehovah to never stop exposing Satan&#39;s schemes FOR AS LONG AS JEHOVAH SEES FIT TO KEEP ME BREATHING, or until Satan is in the LAKE OF FIRE.

Your Brother in Christ

LOU

[BackToBasics]

Mat 5:33 "Again YOU heard that it was said to those of ancient times, &#39;You must not swear without performing, but you must pay your vows to Jehovah.&#39;
Mat 5:34 However, I say to YOU: Do not swear at all, neither by heaven, because it is God&#39;s throne;
Mat 5:35 nor by earth, because it is the footstool of his feet; nor by Jerusalem, because it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36 Nor by your head must you swear, because you cannot turn one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 Just let YOUR word Yes mean Yes, YOUR No, No; for what is in excess of these is from the wicked one.

[olrono]

Someone here wrote…

“This is the height of foolishness. Millions of lives could be saved, for what? To die meaninglessly a few years later due to old age, sickness, or accident? People cannot make *this world* a better place. One political system is not better than any other. I feel many of you brothers are too attached to the political system of things and this is just one manifestation of it. Really, I worry about the lot of you. Talking about Waco and Ruby Ridge? What&#39;s next, protesting abortion clinics? Marching at a demonstration at a Republican convention? I mean, at least with abortion, you&#39;d be fighting a gross immorality that no one is even attempting to hide. It&#39;s right in plain sight, no conspiracy needed.”



I can’t believe my eyes! You think you are so much more important because you are a Jehovah’s Witness? We are supposed to feel sympathy for our fellow man who don’t have the truth, the way Jesus did feel for them! You wouldn’t warn the people of a fire in a big building because, “there just going to die someday anyway.” Let me explain to you my brother, when the Bible says we should respect the superior authorities, in our country that means the Law, the Law is the superior authority. And when “men” in the A.T.F and the F.B.I. disregard the Law, disregard due process, they have failed their responsibility as God’s minister. And deserve Jehovah’s judgment. You understand what I am saying? Some one with such little knowledge shouldn’t be tiring to correct us here that want to expose the truth. And that is NOT a theory!

[Steadfast]

Dear Brother Juff,

You said: &#39;The problem with all conspiracy theories is they rely on a truly vast suppression of ideas and communication. Thousands, maybe tens of thousands of people would have to remain silent or be silenced to make it work.&#39;

Au contraire, my brother. The idea of an open conspiracy is that people will think it is so ridiculous, they will ignore it as stupidity.

Satan is counting on it! :icon_eek:

Love, :Love:

Steadfast

[olrono]

My Fear olrono is that this truth that you think you have might in fact propell people towards those who would place the mark of the beast on people in the future . Satan is very good at the double bluf game . The possibility exists that in exsposing these things you might in fact be helping him .[/b]
<span style="font-family:Times New Roman">As a Jehovah’s Witness for fifty five years, “I will obey God rather than men”.

[Jeshurun]

Mat 5:33 "Again YOU heard that it was said to those of ancient times, &#39;You must not swear without performing, but you must pay your vows to Jehovah.&#39;
Mat 5:34 However, I say to YOU: Do not swear at all, neither by heaven, because it is God&#39;s throne;
Mat 5:35 nor by earth, because it is the footstool of his feet; nor by Jerusalem, because it is the city of the great King.
Mat 5:36 Nor by your head must you swear, because you cannot turn one hair white or black.
Mat 5:37 Just let YOUR word Yes mean Yes, YOUR No, No; for what is in excess of these is from the wicked one.[/b]

I&#39;ll pay my vow, because it is Jehovah&#39;s will. Nothing else gives me satisfaction, so thanks for the encouragement.

[BackToBasics]

Olrono said :

"Let me correct you brother B to B, I don’t “think” I have the truth, I KNOW I have the TRUTH! "

Its a classic Ill give you that .

I simply have to say I dont think your wrong I know your wrong . :icon_rolleyes:

[Shibboleth]

Questions :

Which would you prefer to talk about, Godly Truths or conspiracy "truths"? Can&#39;t have both, pick only one.

Do you go onto the conspiracy websites forums and tell them about Jehovah? You come and talk about conspiracies here so it would be obvious that you also must speak to those same theorists about Jehovah.

Which would be better for people to learn about? Godly knowledge and wisdom or conspiracy knowledge and wisdom? Again can&#39;t have both.


Matthew 24

14 (http://) And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.[/b]

What good news are you preaching? Did Jesus tell us to preach the good news of conspiracy theories? No. In fact Jesus was the subject of a conspiracy. The Pharisees and Saducees conspired against Jesus. Where did that conspiracy originate with? Satan. Just like all conspiracies come from Satan. That is a stone cold fact. Where is the conspiracy with Jehovah? there is none. He has told us all that is going to happen in our future. He hasn&#39;t conspired with anyone or held things in secret. Satan on the other hand does hide things. We know this. Jehovah told us this. Embracing the truths of Jehovah brings us to light. Embracing the truths of conspiracies only brings us darkness.

First conspiracy :


Genesis 3

1 (http://) Now the serpent proved to be the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it began to say to the woman: “Is it really so that God said YOU must not eat from every tree of the garden?” 2 (http://) At this the woman said to the serpent: “Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. 3 (http://) But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘YOU must not eat from it, no, YOU must not touch it that YOU do not die.’” 4 (http://) At this the serpent said to the woman: “YOU positively will not die. 5 (http://) For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad.”[/b]


con·spir·a·cy http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pnghttp://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2 Fconspiracy) /kənˈspɪrhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngəhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngsi/ Pronunciation Key (http://) - Show Spelled Pronunciation (http://)[kuhhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngn-spir-uh-see] Pronunciation Key (http://) - Show IPA Pronunciation (http://)

–noun, plural -cies. 1.the act of conspiring. 2.an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; plot. 3.a combination of persons for a secret, unlawful, or evil purpose: He joined the conspiracy to overthrow the government. 4.Law. an agreement by two or more persons to commit a crime, fraud, or other wrongful act. 5.any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given result.

—Synonyms 1. collusion, sedition. 2. Conspiracy, plot, intrigue, cabal all refer to surreptitious or covert schemes to accomplish some end, most often an evil one. A conspiracy usually involves a group entering into a secret agreement to achieve some illicit or harmful objective: a vicious conspiracy to control prices. A plot is a carefully planned secret scheme, usually by a small number of persons, to secure sinister ends: a plot to seize control of a company. An intrigue usually involves duplicity and deceit aimed at achieving either personal advantage or criminal or treasonous objectives: the petty intrigues of civil servants. Cabal refers either to a plan by a small group of highly-placed persons to overthrow or control a government, or to the group of persons themselves: a cabal of powerful lawmakers.

[/b]

Now this is truely the last time I will post on this thread. My peace has been said and you will hear no more from me about this subject.


Regards,

Shibboleth

[Jeshurun]

Let&#39;s look at another perspective. I get opportunities to witness to people all day. They want something they can sink their teeth into, something that effects them, something tangible. Do any of you conspiracyphobes have any idea how many people can be turned onto Jehovah&#39;s Kingdom with such a tangible lead-in? I&#39;m not talking about giving them fairy tales, I&#39;m talking about real issues, lies that the government has been caught dead-to-rights in. More than half the people I talk to think that 911 was highly suspicious. Are we to be deprived of using this weapon because some of you are offended? And what&#39;s this about "its either one way or the other"? Are you serious?

http://e-watchman.com/commentaries/conspir...of-silence.html (http://e-watchman.com/commentaries/conspiracy-of-silence.html)

[James]

[quote]
Alot of this resoning seems to be built on the idea that this "mark" what ever it turns out to be will somehow be forced on people without their knowledge . Or if it is with their knowledge then its not because they are bad people in their heart but because they will have been fooled into it .

Do some really think that Jehovah will detroy anyone who is fooled into something and ignore their heart as to if it is good or bad in that secret person inside? Some might use the example of Eve as proof that people can be fooled into doing something thats bad . True enough but Eve was only fooled because she belived she would not die as a result .She new full well that she was disobeying the command to not eat of the fruit . That is why she lost her life and it wasnt because she was decived . It was because she new what she was doing was a sin. Will not the same priciple be applied even more so to imperfect ones when the mark of the beast is active?



Six is not a literal mark but a symbol of knowingly disobeying Jehovah . It wont count as a mark in Gods eyes unless they do in fact know exactly what they are doing. Will be hard not to know when the holy spirit is poured out again on a global scale as in the time of Christ . Eve wasnt fooled into disobeying God either . So this whole idea of being fooled and in inocent ignorance being Judged for erternal destruction by Jehovah is fastasy . I hope that kind of fear in not the fruit of the labouring on and on about consparacy theorys but I fear it is . If people think they might be fooled by Satan into erternal death they might might make self fulfilling prophesy come true . If you think you are dead already then what can that one do about it !


Hi BTB,

The Scriptures disagree. Genesis 3:13 says "With that Jehovah God said to the woman: “What is this you have done?” To this the woman replied: “The serpent—it deceived me and so I ate.”
1Timothy 2:14 says "Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and came to be in transgression."

[Viking]

this I found just before:

No one will enter the New World Order unless he or she will make a
pledge to worship Lucifer. No one will enter the New Age unless he
will take a Luciferian Initiation." - David Spangler, Director of The
Planetary Initiative of the UNITED NATIONS


teh pledge might be the mark?

[BackToBasics]

James I think you misunderstand the sublety of my argument .

Eve as I said was decieved . She believed Satan in that she thought that she would not die . The point I was making was that she also knew she was disobeying Jehovah. She knew that she was doing wrong . The scripture you provide kinds of prooves this because God askes the woman if she has eaten of the tree . Eve then instantly says that she has been decieved . Who told Eve that she had been decieved? No one. She knows this because she knows that she has disobeyed God . That was her sin and that is what she died for . When she was tempted she even quotes the command God gave them regarding not eating of the tree .

So I am not saying that Eve was not decieved because she was but she still sinned. A person doesnt sin if no law has been laid down for them to break . Jehovah does not erternally punish people for doing wrong unless he has told them it is wrong . That is simply reasonable . I did already say this in the post you quote from .

[Nambo]

Questions :

Which would you prefer to talk about, Godly Truths or conspiracy "truths"? Can&#39;t have both, pick only one.

Do you go onto the conspiracy websites forums and tell them about Jehovah? You come and talk about conspiracies here so it would be obvious that you also must speak to those same theorists about Jehovah.

Which would be better for people to learn about? Godly knowledge and wisdom or conspiracy knowledge and wisdom? Again can&#39;t have both.

Regards,

Shibboleth[/b]

Sorry Shibboleth, but you are so wrong here and missing such a wonderfull oppurtunity for wittnessing about Gods Kingdom because, whereas before, people where moderatly happy with the world, long as they can get thier shopping and watch football.
Now, so very very many people can see there is something seriously wrong with the way governments are working, people are actually asking me whats going on.

I can then explain to them how we came under Satans control right from the start and how Gods left a period of time before he answers the Lords Prayer.

And you know what, whereas previously how few would take any note, well now because so many people belive 911 was a lie, they are actually listening to the Bible message!
A lot of these people know about "conspiracy theories", about free-masons, the Illuminati and the like, but they know nothing about the cure, about Jehovahs coming Kingdom, these people are ripe for turning towards God, but you will miss the oppurtunity because of your prejudices.

And yes, though I dont post much at all on these "conspiracy" forums, I look for and do post when I see an oppurtunity to bring God into the picture.


As for the other topic going on about the mark of the wild beast, isnt there a scripture that talks about Satanic deciept that might turn away even the Holy ones?
Sure people will knowingly be "taking the mark of the wild beast and rejecting Jehovah, but they may be doing it for reasons they have been decieved into thinking, such as following a nuclear war, the wild beast ends it with the cry of "Peace and security", so everybody is gratefull to the wild beast and worships that instead of the religions that where allways starting wars.

Now if we can show them that the Nucleur wars the wild beast "saves" us from, where actually started by them in the first place in order to achieve this effect, "order out of chaos" then maybe we can help stop people from being decieved into voluntarily worshipping the beast.

Can you see how this works and why some of us here are opening ourselves to such abuse by the Devils advocates?

[Shibboleth]

<div class='quotemain'>Questions :

Which would you prefer to talk about, Godly Truths or conspiracy "truths"? Can&#39;t have both, pick only one.

Do you go onto the conspiracy websites forums and tell them about Jehovah? You come and talk about conspiracies here so it would be obvious that you also must speak to those same theorists about Jehovah.

Which would be better for people to learn about? Godly knowledge and wisdom or conspiracy knowledge and wisdom? Again can&#39;t have both.

Regards,

Shibboleth[/b]

Sorry Shibboleth, but you are so wrong here and missing such a wonderfull oppurtunity for wittnessing about Gods Kingdom because, whereas before, people where moderatly happy with the world, long as they can get thier shopping and watch football.
Now, so very very many people can see there is something seriously wrong with the way governments are working, people are actually asking me whats going on.

I can then explain to them how we came under Satans control right from the start and how Gods left a period of time before he answers the Lords Prayer.

And you know what, whereas previously how few would take any note, well now because so many people belive 911 was a lie, they are actually listening to the Bible message!
A lot of these people know about "conspiracy theories", about free-masons, the Illuminati and the like, but they know nothing about the cure, about Jehovahs coming Kingdom, these people are ripe for turning towards God, but you will miss the oppurtunity because of your prejudices.

And yes, though I dont post much at all on these "conspiracy" forums, I look for and do post when I see an oppurtunity to bring God into the picture.


[/b][/quote]

My prejudices???

I tell people about God&#39;s Kingdom. I tell them of a hope we have to live in a world without lies. Why would I sully my message down to tell them about the Illuminati or about some supposed conspiracy on 9/11 or about free-masons? I tell them about Jehovah and let people make sound decisions for themselves. I know I said that I would end this and I probably should have but now this conversation is really starting to irk me alot and it is also doing the same for other people on this board. One of the basic teachings of the bible is that the whole world is lying in the palm of the wicked one. If people who learn about Jehovah grasps this one little fact, the whole world comes into perspective. you are not telling me anything new with Iluminati or NWO or free-masonry or any other shadowy government cover up, because I believe in the one simple truthful fact that Jehovah through His Son Jesus told us - that Satan is behind the whole scenes. When people grasp this truth like I have and millions of JW&#39;s all over the earth, we can see the full picture. We don&#39;t need to read about conspiracy theorys cause the theorys have already been brought to light in God&#39;s Word the Bible.

You keep trying to tell us that the sky is blue during the day and black at night. Yes I know this. Hey but did you know the sky is blue? Yes. you know it&#39;s blue, right? YES YES YES YES YES! I hear you perfectly clear. It&#39;s blue!

Now I really really really am going to leave this thread and I am not coming back. So if you want to bash this go ahead. I am not gonna check in again. Now I am going to leave and get something to drink and chill out for a bit. cause this thread has my blood boiling.

[Berean]

So, its stooped this low, now we are agents of Satan for not keeping our mouths shut[/b]
No, that&#39;s not at all what I said. I merely said that perhaps Satan is using some people (with which I mean those who create conspiracy websites) to put things online that only take up time, but don&#39;t really build up. It&#39;s the same with a lot of Internet sites. All this pouring over stuff takes up time, while proving nothing. Talk to any scientist, and he&#39;ll tell you that you can&#39;t get away with using an Internet source for any research. Have you actually read scientific literature from both sides of the argument, and have you actually visited archives, to see the traces that are left of how the conspiracies came to fruition over the centuries? Take the Freemasons for instance; they have a library that&#39;s open to the public, you could take that as a starting point for further research. Then you could pay a visit to a governmental archive, or an independent one, to find out if the sources contradict what the government wants to have you believe or not. You could trace back the &#39;thirteen bloodlines&#39; of the Illuminati through genealogic research, and check what their impact has been on world history compared to other families. You could do background checks for every single U.S. president, to see if they were Freemasons, or if they did other suspicious things. What I&#39;m trying to say is, forming a theory takes years of research, and even then you can&#39;t be 100% sure. Most conspiracy web sites haven&#39;t even scratched the surface though, and yet they make outlandish claims. Based on what? Nothing but their greed - they&#39;re nearly always trying to sell you something, books, videos, they&#39;ve got ads on their sites. If the people behind those sites were really concerned about the well-being of others, they&#39;d be giving away the money they earn with the sales of their books to starving children in Africa - or better yet, they&#39;d become our brothers, to help us save as many people as possible.

[Nambo]

<div class='quotemain'>So, its stooped this low, now we are agents of Satan for not keeping our mouths shut[/b]
No, that&#39;s not at all what I said. I merely said that perhaps Satan is using some people (with which I mean those who create conspiracy websites) to put things online that only take up time, but don&#39;t really build up. It&#39;s the same with a lot of Internet sites. All this pouring over stuff takes up time, while proving nothing. Talk to any scientist, and he&#39;ll tell you that you can&#39;t get away with using an Internet source for any research. Have you actually read scientific literature from both sides of the argument, and have you actually visited archives, to see the traces that are left of how the conspiracies came to fruition over the centuries? Take the Freemasons for instance; they have a library that&#39;s open to the public, you could take that as a starting point for further research. Then you could pay a visit to a governmental archive, or an independent one, to find out if the sources contradict what the government wants to have you believe or not. You could trace back the &#39;thirteen bloodlines&#39; of the Illuminati through genealogic research, and check what their impact has been on world history compared to other families. You could do background checks for every single U.S. president, to see if they were Freemasons, or if they did other suspicious things. What I&#39;m trying to say is, forming a theory takes years of research, and even then you can&#39;t be 100% sure. Most conspiracy web sites haven&#39;t even scratched the surface though, and yet they make outlandish claims. Based on what? Nothing but their greed - they&#39;re nearly always trying to sell you something, books, videos, they&#39;ve got ads on their sites. If the people behind those sites were really concerned about the well-being of others, they&#39;d be giving away the money they earn with the sales of their books to starving children in Africa - or better yet, they&#39;d become our brothers, to help us save as many people as possible.
[/b][/quote]

Hi Berean, sorry if I misinterpreted your comment, allways a danger with the interent.

You are quite right about the credibility of everything you read on the internet, something I myself warn people against.

But as for the research you mention, some of us here have done this reasearch, we pass it on to you in the hope it maybe usefull in your Christian ministry, in the battle for the hearts and minds of people between chosing Jehovah or Satan.
To most people Satan doesnt even exist or is a harmless figure of fantasy, knowledge of his workings can be a powerfull tool in the swaying of mens alligences.

You know rather than just a few fools who looked at some dodgy websites, you have some credible company here, Olrono is a real gift who has kept some very usefull company.
Myself, for instance, I have on occassion the ear of Micheal Metcher MP, this is the guy who has put himself in the running for Tony Blairs post, that is the Prime Minister of the UK, at the moment he is looking into a point I brough to his attention as to why niether the Police, the Government, or the media have demanded to know who arranged to run the simultanious exercises of suicide bombers blowing up the same trains, on the same time, on the same day, at the same places it actually happened, this was carried out by Peter Powers Visor company, you can still view him admitting such on ITN news archieves.

I have not put down my Bible to research these things, maybe other wordly pursuits like watching the TV have suffered.

I used to wonder how Satan controlled the governments that the Bible shows are in his hands, where all MPs possessed or something?
I work at the Houses of Parliament now and can tell you that most MPs are just ordinary Human beings abliet lacking a backbone in not standing up for thier own morals but towing the party line and obeying the party whips.

Learning of the higher structure of who really runs the party whips and the big decisitions has helped me see how things operate rather than just having to reily on faith and the societies milk, not that there is anything wrong with that?, but surely every little bit helps and we are perplexed at the hostility of some Witnesses to our trying to show that the things the Witnesses are believing and waiting for, are in play.

[juffowup]

I can&#39;t believe my eyes! You think you are so much more important because you are a Jehovah&#39;s Witness?[/b]

I did not say that. What I said is that it is impossible for men to make this world a better place. You have a problem with that statement, take it up with Jehovah.


We are supposed to feel sympathy for our fellow man who don&#39;t have the truth, the way Jesus did feel for them! You wouldn&#39;t warn the people of a fire in a big building because, "there just going to die someday anyway." Daniel 2:44. Daniel 2:44. DANIEL 2:44!!! There is Jehovah&#39;s judgment. Do you think Jehovah is going to give some governments a pass if they have a decent constitution and try to live up to it? Vanity, and a striving after the wind.

<div class=\'quotetop\'>QUOTE<div class=\'quotemain\'>Some one with such little knowledge shouldn&#39;t be tiring to correct us here that want to expose the truth. And that is NOT a theory![/b][/quote]

The fact is, that you have not demonstrated to those not already drinking your Kool-aid that you have a superior grasp of the facts. If anything, you have demonstrated an ability to seriously belabor a very simple truth, though I disagree with that. I understand the way the world works just fine. It is quite simple. Making it complex just distracts you from the things you should be doing to prepare yourself for the end. This is my opinion, take it or leave it.

In my mind, what you are saying, which is the governments are corrupt and under the influence of Satan, is like saying the sky is blue. That is a true statement. But then you go on to say that the sky is blue because god used a blue magic marker on the sky when he created the world. No, that is wrong. But I don&#39;t really care, because you got the main part right. But then I see you analyzing pictures of the sky, claiming the white streaks are where God missed part of the paper and how this proves your theory, and jets are angels trying to cover up the blue, and it gets dark at night because God spills an inkwell on the sky, etc, etc, and I start to worry for you.

I strongly believe that is just what you are doing. Now, how do we get along, you thinking me brainwashed and I thinking you are deluded? I would think you&#39;d have the easier time with me since I agree with your base premise, but apparently that is not the case. So you tell me.

[juffowup]

Dear Brother Juff,

You said: &#39;The problem with all conspiracy theories is they rely on a truly vast suppression of ideas and communication. Thousands, maybe tens of thousands of people would have to remain silent or be silenced to make it work.&#39;

Au contraire, my brother. The idea of an open conspiracy is that people will think it is so ridiculous, they will ignore it as stupidity.

Satan is counting on it! :icon_eek:[/b]

You have it both ways, then don&#39;t you? If the truth is covered up, it is proof of a conspiracy and an example of effective silencing. If the truth is right there in the open, it is proof of a conspiracy and an example of effective marginalization of opposition.

Your conspiracy theories need not be true for Satan to be in control of the governments, which the bible already tells us. Conversely, for your conspiracy theories to be true, the whole world must be lying in the power of the wicked one. So tell me, which is the more important truth?

I could very well say that Satan is counting on you being so absorbed with this cover up busy work that you aren&#39;t spiritually balanced. I do say this. I think you guys go further than "this is potentially interesting things that if true could reinforce my belief that this world&#39;s political system is manipulated by Satan and will soon be destroyed" and you have turned it into an obsession.

The POINT is, that since you think those of us who disagree are wrong, and we think those of you who believe are wasting time at best and have gone off the deep end at worse, we need to decide how best to get along. It has become increasingly clear that there is no Christian way to discuss the matter. I can ignore conspiracy threads. I wish there weren&#39;t so many of them, but whatever. Can you guys not drag conspiracy stuff into non-related threads?

[Steadfast]

Dear Brother Juff,

You said: &#39;You have it both ways, then don&#39;t you? If the truth is covered up, it is proof of a conspiracy and an example of effective silencing.&#39;

Me: You must have me confused with someone else I never said it was secret.

By the way, this is a discussion forum. :D

Love, :Love:

Steadfast

[Jeshurun]

Your conspiracy theories need not be true for Satan to be in control of the governments, which the bible already tells us. Conversely, for your conspiracy theories to be true, the whole world must be lying in the power of the wicked one. So tell me, which is the more important truth?

I could very well say that Satan is counting on you being so absorbed with this cover up busy work that you aren&#39;t spiritually balanced. I do say this. I think you guys go further than "this is potentially interesting things that if true could reinforce my belief that this world&#39;s political system is manipulated by Satan and will soon be destroyed" and you have turned it into an obsession.

The POINT is, that since you think those of us who disagree are wrong, and we think those of you who believe are wasting time at best and have gone off the deep end at worse, we need to decide how best to get along. It has become increasingly clear that there is no Christian way to discuss the matter. I can ignore conspiracy threads. I wish there weren&#39;t so many of them, but whatever. Can you guys not drag conspiracy stuff into non-related threads?[/b]

There is a Christian way to discuss anything, but it takes two to tango.

Each of us is different and express ourselves differently. Why can&#39;t you just accept ours and we will accept yours? Why the hostilities with my dear brother Olrono? The man has a heart of gold and he&#39;s extremely passionate because he wants to help save people. It&#39;s what we all want. Why say that we can&#39;t do it our way, if we don&#39;t criticize your way?

[olrono]

Ok, this is my final say on the matter. Things can either change, or they don&#39;t, matters not to me.

The problem with all conspiracy theories is they rely on a truly vast suppression of ideas and communication. Thousands, maybe tens of thousands of people would have to remain silent or be silenced to make it work. This from a government that can&#39;t even suppress the fact that a low level aid lied about what reporters he told a story to. Oh, and a government powerless to plant a few WMD in Iraq that would have cemented almost limitless power for itself. Exactly how do these facts fit into the conspiracy? How many people do you think it would take to pull something on the order of 9/11 off? It boggles the mind.

Second, a personal problem I have with some of you, aside from the conspiracy stuff, is statements like "Perhaps if people had belived the conspiracy theories about Adolf Hitler, such as he was building up a personal army far greater than the regular German army and he planned to take over Europe, or that those dead Polish soldiers who invaded Germany at the radio station wher&#39;nt Polish at all but German prisoners dressed as Poles, that the Reighstag fire wasnt started by Communists, well maybe the Germans wouldnt have given Hitler the power to do what he did and millions of lives could have been saved."

This is the height of foolishness. Millions of lives could be saved, for what? To die meaninglessly a few years later due to old age, sickness, or accident? People cannot make *this world* a better place. One political system is not better than any other. I feel many of you brothers are too attached to the political system of things and this is just one manifestation of it. Really, I worry about the lot of you. Talking about Waco and Ruby Ridge? What&#39;s next, protesting abortion clinics? Marching at a demonstration at a Republican convention? I mean, at least with abortion, you&#39;d be fighting a gross immorality that no one is even attempting to hide. It&#39;s right in plain sight, no conspiracy needed.

Once you know there is no hope in human governments, that is all you need to know. You&#39;ll never know the day nor the hour, and it will come as a thief in the night. I say it again, this "research" you are doing is vanity. Nobody has you to point out otherwise. Just statements like "exposing the government lies is important!" But you&#39;re doing it right here where everyone already agrees with what you&#39;re preaching. You are exposing nothing, if anything, you are attempting to add an exclamation point to a fact we already all know. So make a website, go door to door about it, whatever. Though it is strange indeed the powerful shadow governments allow you to expose their secrets like this in an open forum. Or indeed any of the other highly traffic&#39;d websites that are also dedicated to exposing the truth about what is going on with the governments.

Or do it here, but don&#39;t get bent out of shape when people don&#39;t care or want to argue about it with you.

I&#39;m just a simple reader, I don&#39;t have any say. This is just my two cents about what direction I&#39;d like to see the board move to, and my honest evaluation of the activities that go on here.[/b]
Look bro. I am your brother and I want to help you open your eyes. Let&#39;s look at what you said… "This is the height of foolishness. Millions of lives could be saved, for what? To die meaninglessly a few years later due to old age, sickness, or accident? People cannot make *this world* a better place. One political system is not better than any other."

1^st. you said it, "Millions of lives could be saved for what?"

We should be willing to come to the rescue of any life that is in danger, we can&#39;t judge when they will die or if it will be "meaninglessly" or not? I am I missing some thing?

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just reacted to my strong response to your comments and over look that you may have not thought this through.

2^nd, you said, "People cannot make *this world* a better place".

Jesus called his people the "salt of the earth", Paul said we are to be a "theatrical spectacle" to the world. Every thing we do is to make the world a better place; we have Bible studies with our families and other people of the world to make our homes a better place. We have respect for the Law and we obey the Law. And this makes the world a better place. This is what is meant to be the salt of the earth.

3^rd, you said, "One political system is not better than any other." Oh? Let&#39;s say you were to write a short story, and suppose someone were to copy or plagiarize your story, who is really the author? When Jehovah gave mankind through Moses the Law Covenant, ever since then all trough the years this is how God placed Governments among men. When men copy God&#39;s Law, it is not mans laws, it is God&#39;s. And when we obey these laws we are really obeying God and not men. As Romans 13 states, it has to be for the "Good", and only Jehovah himself can determine what is "Good", that is why we need to have His Word The Bible in our whole life. And when I mentioned "Due Process", do you know were this comes from? You were belittling Jehovah&#39;s Law when you insinuated it was mere "man&#39;s law". You know what? Jehovah&#39;s Law won&#39;t be any different in the New System.

Now that I have your attention I will say, nothing would be more important to me than to discuss these issues with you as my Brother and I am very glad that we share this web site together, I think about these issues all day and wish I can clear up some of these Watchtower Doctrines that have puzzled the brothers for years.

[olrono]

<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>So, its stooped this low, now we are agents of Satan for not keeping our mouths shut[/b]
No, that&#39;s not at all what I said. I merely said that perhaps Satan is using some people (with which I mean those who create conspiracy websites) to put things online that only take up time, but don&#39;t really build up. It&#39;s the same with a lot of Internet sites. All this pouring over stuff takes up time, while proving nothing. Talk to any scientist, and he&#39;ll tell you that you can&#39;t get away with using an Internet source for any research. Have you actually read scientific literature from both sides of the argument, and have you actually visited archives, to see the traces that are left of how the conspiracies came to fruition over the centuries? Take the Freemasons for instance; they have a library that&#39;s open to the public, you could take that as a starting point for further research. Then you could pay a visit to a governmental archive, or an independent one, to find out if the sources contradict what the government wants to have you believe or not. You could trace back the &#39;thirteen bloodlines&#39; of the Illuminati through genealogic research, and check what their impact has been on world history compared to other families. You could do background checks for every single U.S. president, to see if they were Freemasons, or if they did other suspicious things. What I&#39;m trying to say is, forming a theory takes years of research, and even then you can&#39;t be 100% sure. Most conspiracy web sites haven&#39;t even scratched the surface though, and yet they make outlandish claims. Based on what? Nothing but their greed - they&#39;re nearly always trying to sell you something, books, videos, they&#39;ve got ads on their sites. If the people behind those sites were really concerned about the well-being of others, they&#39;d be giving away the money they earn with the sales of their books to starving children in Africa - or better yet, they&#39;d become our brothers, to help us save as many people as possible.
[/b][/quote]

Hi Berean, sorry if I misinterpreted your comment, allways a danger with the interent.

You are quite right about the credibility of everything you read on the internet, something I myself warn people against.

But as for the research you mention, some of us here have done this reasearch, we pass it on to you in the hope it maybe usefull in your Christian ministry, in the battle for the hearts and minds of people between chosing Jehovah or Satan.
To most people Satan doesnt even exist or is a harmless figure of fantasy, knowledge of his workings can be a powerfull tool in the swaying of mens alligences.

You know rather than just a few fools who looked at some dodgy websites, you have some credible company here, Olrono is a real gift who has kept some very usefull company.
Myself, for instance, I have on occassion the ear of Micheal Metcher MP, this is the guy who has put himself in the running for Tony Blairs post, that is the Prime Minister of the UK, at the moment he is looking into a point I brough to his attention as to why niether the Police, the Government, or the media have demanded to know who arranged to run the simultanious exercises of suicide bombers blowing up the same trains, on the same time, on the same day, at the same places it actually happened, this was carried out by Peter Powers Visor company, you can still view him admitting such on ITN news archieves.

I have not put down my Bible to research these things, maybe other wordly pursuits like watching the TV have suffered.

I used to wonder how Satan controlled the governments that the Bible shows are in his hands, where all MPs possessed or something?
I work at the Houses of Parliament now and can tell you that most MPs are just ordinary Human beings abliet lacking a backbone in not standing up for thier own morals but towing the party line and obeying the party whips.

Learning of the higher structure of who really runs the party whips and the big decisitions has helped me see how things operate rather than just having to reily on faith and the societies milk, not that there is anything wrong with that?, but surely every little bit helps and we are perplexed at the hostility of some Witnesses to our trying to show that the things the Witnesses are believing and waiting for, are in play.
[/b][/quote]You said... "I used to wonder how Satan controlled the governments that the Bible shows are in his hands, where all MPs possessed or something?"

That was my thought years ago too! Thanks Nambo!

[olrono]

Olrono said :

"Let me correct you brother B to B, I don&#39;t "think" I have the truth, I KNOW I have the TRUTH! "

Its a classic Ill give you that .

I simply have to say I dont think your wrong I know your wrong . :icon_rolleyes: [/b]
So...tell me where then.

[BackToBasics]

As a whole in a word.

[olrono]

As a whole in a word.[/b]
Just as I thought, you can&#39;t!

[olrono]

Ephesians 5:

8<span style="font-family:Times New Roman">Any way, the next big event is scheduled to happen in 2010 and you can find all the details in the two movies 2001 a space odyssey, for this was never really intended to be a space adventure but an expose on the future events as planed by the Magi. What I appreciate is reading Watchman’s essays and how Bible prophecy is going to relate to these events! For all those who would complain about what we are talking about here, I wish they would read and comment on Watchmen’s essays, for if we had him back in Russell’s day, he could have been the founder of our organization. We have a real treasure here and I am not hearing enough about it!

[BackToBasics]

olrono your scripture you quote from Ephesians is miss applied . The whole Chapter is aimed at the congregation not the nations. You dont need to know about the illuminati or UFOs or even William Cooper in order to reprove ones in the congregations who might be sinning in secret . WJat is needed is mildness and love. If you read the whole chapter you can easly tell what the secret things are . The bible is not telling you to go and reprove the illuminati its aimed at the congregation.

You said "We are to reprove the ones that are doing the secret things of darkness, how can you do that unless you even know what they are?"

Ok well the bible says that we should pay our taxes . Well William cooper who you seem to have put on a pedastall was done for tax evasion and bank fraud . He was also shot dead because of a warrent for his arrest was issued for aggravated assult and he shot one on the law informent people for trying to arrest him so in the shot out he was shot dead .

What you say about the movies 2001 and 2010 are well a bit mad. The guy who wrote 2001 and 2010 would laugh at what you said in your post .

Olrono I think you are a danger to the spirituality of anyone trying to seek God and his Christ . Ufos ,Illuminati plots , silly sciance fiction films , secrets,lies darkness . If Satan is doing whatever let him do it . You for your part upbuild . Im not impressed at all that you predicted 9/11 . Big deal . You didnt stop it did you ? Your not prepared to enter polotics and actually do something about anything so whats the point . Its a bit hypocritical to not get involved and yet to criticise .

You wont listen to reason but God will be found true though EVERY man a lia . Do you really think when the truth arrives with Christ you will be found to be correct although everyone else a lia? What a waste of effort . Your time would be better spent hellping the poor or weak and the downtroddon. You cant even apply scriptures in their proper context which ironicly was about the congregation inside and not the whoever outside .

Your trying to build a rat ship of sea going snitches . You think that Ark will save anyone? It will sink along with the rest of lies . How much mud can one sling and and not get thair hands sticky? Not all should be teachers the bible tells us . Thats the truth . Chuck out the spiritual teacher and replace it with one that peddals mistrust and paranoia . Not Christian is it . These words are harsh but so are yours . The kingdom of God belongs to such like ones and these are those as like children . Take a lesson,lern a truth a simple one.

With respect BTB.

[olrono]

<div class='quotemain'>olrono your scripture you quote from Ephesians is miss applied . The whole Chapter is aimed at the congregation not the nations. You dont need to know about the illuminati or UFOs or even William Cooper in order to reprove ones in the congregations who might be sinning in secret . WJat is needed is mildness and love. If you read the whole chapter you can easly tell what the secret things are . The bible is not telling you to go and reprove the illuminati its aimed at the congregation.

You said "<span style="font-family:Times New Roman">That’s OK B to B if you’re not impressed that I foresaw the 911 calamity, how do you think I feel not being able to do anything about it and have to see it come about? Anyway, it was by this knowledge that I had obtained from William Cooper that I was able to discern on my own that the United Nations were involved with our beloved Watchtower Society long before anyone else. By the way B to B, what do you think of the Society’s affair with the U.N. as a N.G.O. anyway?

[Jeshurun]

[attachment=12:Image161_1_.jpg][attachment=13:Image156_1_.jpg][attachment=14:firetruck_3_1_.jpg]
Did someone awhile back mention hijacking threads?

If someone wants to start a thread called, "How to discourage others" please go right ahead, I promise not to post there.

This thread was called "Facts or Theories".

So, question: are these photos facts? Yes, I would not think that was debatable, but around here lately, one begins to wonder.

Since they are facts, then can someone please explain why 1400 vehicles such as these, and the ones you see under the elevated highway, that was underneath the FDR Drive, a full 3/4 mile away from the towers, were melted and incinerated this way? PLEASE?

Here&#39;s the theory, as you say: What can explain this (that we know of), combined with the fact (no, the government has not debated this) that 80 percent of the towers&#39; steel was turned to DUST, besides that it was some type of Stars Wars/SDI BEAM WEAPON, which might explain why the government ordered all aircraft grounded, including MILITARY and LAW-ENFORCEMENT aircraft? Because they might get "dusted"?

If you would now like to debunk the beam weapon thing, please include alternative possibilities.

[BackToBasics]

Hang on . So the towers were detroyed not by exsposives now but by a beam weapon of some kind?

[Jeshurun]

BOTH. And Building 7 was demolished to destroy the evidence of the command center for the whole gig, but that&#39;s just my THEORY.

Watch the collapse videos. I can send you some if you like. The buildings didn&#39;t just fall. They were PULVERIZED. And no one disputes this!

Its lunacy!

Most people just dont want to see it, they can&#39;t imagine the repercussions if it&#39;s true, so they just block it out. The ones who do see it just might find Jehovah because of it, like I did. That doesn&#39;t mean it&#39;s the only way, but surely a wake-up call as big as 911 doesn&#39;t hurt.

And the elite laugh away, they&#39;re lemmings, just like they knew they were. And they&#39;ll just keep feeding the propaganda to the couch potatoes, which they have also orchestrated. Satan surely does know how to manipulate the masses. It&#39;s the ones who have EYES and EARS who might find Jehovah.

[BackToBasics]

Well id be interested to hear more .Probably wont believe it but might be interesting to hear .

I would say that 9/11 might seem big to America but its not really compared to other crimes that have happened . The big tidal wave was much bigger that one on boxing day . Nagasiky and Hiroshima ect . Its just because USA is so powerful that it seems like it is .

I cant resist to say this but lemmings never rush over clifs unless propelled by a camera crew .

[Redpill]

OK... I&#39;m a N00b here, so...

Without getting called brainwashed or an agent of Satan, let me see if I can ask a question...

The US govt orchestrated 9/11. The towers were pulverized with a new beam weapon.
The airplanes were flown into the towers to provide the "apparent" reason for their collapse.

So who was on the planes? I don&#39;t suppose anyone is disputing the phones calls made to relatives during the hijackings?

Were the airlines complicit in this?

Are we disputing that witnesses saw an airplane, and not a missle, strike the Pentagon?
Are we disputing that certain Arab men with Al-Qaeda links took flight classes and they they boarded the planes?
Are we disputing that AlQaeda and other terrorist groups hate America and want to inflict damage any way they can?

Is it really so far-fetched that the simplest explanation could be the correct one?
Do significant events never happen in human history, unless they are controlled by an unseen all-powerful secret society?

[Nambo]

OK... I&#39;m a N00b here, so...

Without getting called brainwashed or an agent of Satan, let me see if I can ask a question...

The US govt orchestrated 9/11. The towers were pulverized with a new beam weapon.
The airplanes were flown into the towers to provide the "apparent" reason for their collapse.

So who was on the planes? I don&#39;t suppose anyone is disputing the phones calls made to relatives during the hijackings?

Were the airlines complicit in this?

Are we disputing that witnesses saw an airplane, and not a missle, strike the Pentagon?
Are we disputing that certain Arab men with Al-Qaeda links took flight classes and they they boarded the planes?
Are we disputing that AlQaeda and other terrorist groups hate America and want to inflict damage any way they can?

Is it really so far-fetched that the simplest explanation could be the correct one?
Do significant events never happen in human history, unless they are controlled by an unseen all-powerful secret society?[/b]

Hi Redpill, I like others, didnt want to come back to this thread as for some reason its bringing out some very unchristian attitudes, also, whilst we think it important for people to have the choice to realise 911 and the government might not be all that they seem, well this is suppossed to be a Christian site, abliet one that looks at how modern events fullfill Bible prophecy, but if it becomes a pure 911 research site, the Spirituallity gets lost amongst it.

So, having said that, you asked a few questions, I will give brief answers, just in the hope it might inspire you to type "911 hoax" in a search engine and look at the full picture yourself.

The cell phones, doesnt harm our conspiracy if they where genuine but there are many anomilies, cell phones didnt waork back then when travelling at those hieghts and speeds, some did experiments after 911 and found this to be the case.
Just a few months back, a company announced the technology to do this had become available, but wasnt it suppossed to be available on 911?
The things people said where odd, some guy calling him mum and using his surname, things like that.

Who was on the planes?
Those 4 flights have an average occupancy of 75%
On this day they all had 25%, most unusual, it is quite possible they could all have ended up on the one plane.
At least 2 of those planes are still registered with the FAA, now I used to work with aircraft, mistakes with paperwork do NOT happen, if two planes are still registered, that means they still exist.
As for the 16 "terrorists" who couldnt fly a Cessna in a straight line according to the instructers, well 9 of them have come forward as still being alive in Saudi Arabia, you didnt read that on the front page of the media did you!

Yes witnesses did see a low slow airplane fly towards the Pentagon, others saw what they discribe as being something like a fast moving cruise missile, others saw both.
Now you and I where not there, so we have to look at the evidence we do see to see who sound smost credible, I see no remains of a large aircraft and in the released 5 frames I see a trail of white smoke from a rocket engine, so I deduce the rocket hit it, but a big plane was also there but didnt hit it, a diversion maybe?

As for Al Quida, look it up!, even Robin Cook announced in British parliament, even the BBC did a documentary, showing it was nothing more than a CIA database of mudja hideen operatives in the war against Russia in Afganistan.
For sure Muslims dont like Americans in thier Holy places, and I expect that the more the West attacks them under the pretext of Terrorsim, the more it will stir hate untill real genuine Muslim terrorists emerge.

Have a look at the Loose Change film on Google video, thats a strarting point, more detailed stuff is available elsewhere such as Pilots for truth and the relatives of those lost have done a lot of genuine reasearch.

[BackToBasics]

Nambo . what is name of the company that announced the technology for mobile phone use in aircraft?

I will say that discounting mobile phone calls and saying they are faked in not good evidence for a conspiracy because there were serveral calls made from airphones including one made by a flight attendant . No one can say that the air phones dont work on airplanes. I would also think that because the planes were flying so low that mobile phones would have worked . Some of calls from mobiles were made when some of the aircraft were only twice as high as the WTC is anyway .

[Nambo]

Nambo . what is name of the company that announced the technology for mobile phone use in aircraft?

I will say that discounting mobile phone calls and saying they are faked in not good evidence for a conspiracy because there were serveral calls made from airphones including one made by a flight attendant . No one can say that the air phones dont work on airplanes. I would also think that because the planes were flying so low that mobile phones would have worked . Some of calls from mobiles were made when some of the aircraft were only twice as high as the WTC is anyway .[/b]

Sorry B to B , cannot remember what the company was that announced it, so I just did a Google search like I keep encouraging people to do for themselves and it seems most of the big airlines are introducing this technoligy, it sort of works by making the aircraft its own global region or something?, seems in the tests I mentioned in the last post that a phone would work for a very short while then lose conectivity as it went into a differant area.

Anyway, heres one of the search results from a European Business flight magazine,

" http://www.ebanmagazine.com/images/back.gif (http://www.ebanmagazine.com/search?ei=UTF-8&p=technology+for+mobile+phone+use+in+aircraft%3F&xargs=0&pstart=1&fr=slv8-yie7&b=11)
Mobile phone technology soon to come onboard business jets

August 19, 2004:



Business jet users should be able to use their mobile GSM phones onboard their aeroplanes by the end of this year, according to international telecoms provider Telenor.

“Passengers will be able to make and receive mobile phone call calls, and send or receive text messages just as they do on the ground,” said Graham Lake, Arinc vp and md, Europe, Middle East and Africa. “It’s not a question of whether mobile phones will be used on aircraft. It is merely a question of when.”



In collaboration with Arinc, Telenor will soon market the new type of technology long-awaited by both the business jet and airline communities.



Telenor has designed a Pico Cell, which is a cellphone repeater and interface, for use on aircraft which are already fitted with an Inmarsat Aero H or Swift 64 system. Such systems are reportedly deployed on more than 3,500 aircraft worldwide.



Said Telenor Satellite Services’ Thomas Surface: “We feel this could be a very lucrative market because there is a huge amount of demand for the technology. The business jet community wants to be able to take up their handheld phones, make calls and use short message services (SMS).



“There are obviously other service providers who are looking at producing similar types of technologies but we feel, from our point of view, Telenor is well placed to do this very successfully because operators will be using equipment already installed on their aircraft. Additionally, Telenor is already a major GSM service provider with more than 220 roaming agreements.”

Surface says business jet owners and operators will we looking at a minor investment to upgrade their aircraft for mobile phone usage.

[Sketch]

Pot meet kettle, Kettle meet pot... can we kill this thread now PLEASE!

[olrono]

Nambo . what is name of the company that announced the technology for mobile phone use in aircraft?

I will say that discounting mobile phone calls and saying they are faked in not good evidence for a conspiracy because there were serveral calls made from airphones including one made by a flight attendant . No one can say that the air phones dont work on airplanes. I would also think that because the planes were flying so low that mobile phones would have worked . Some of calls from mobiles were made when some of the aircraft were only twice as high as the WTC is anyway .[/b]
Dear B to B, for some one who was so worried about “wasting time on conspiracy theories” aren’t you getting a little involved in the details? Or are we maybe actually helping you to be more aware after all?

[BackToBasics]

Its useful to listen to others I agree even if one doesnt think they are true. I am becoming more aware of the issues at hand . Its a shame that some are spending lots of time on conspiracy theories but if I am to understand how false or true these things are I must keep up with the rest of you . Plus for those who find these things offensive I must keep up with the fight as I agree with the stance that the "truthers" we be humilated . Plus I also think that the conterfelt kingdom or NWO is itself a counterfelt of a counterfelt. Magic sometimes works best when the observers eye is on the target but his expectation is somewhere else .

[Jeshurun]

I can&#39;t speak for anyone else, but I really hardly spend any time at all anymore on all this. My files are packed with information, and so is my head. The time I spend is trying to show others where to find it for themselves and make their own judgments, and never do I explain to anyone how these things came about without explaining the solution. I can&#39;t see how that isn&#39;t being balanced. I&#39;ve said it so many times, but 911 is a subject that so many people are concerned about. There has been no greater weapon in my ministry, but it only gets the ball rolling. It makes no sense to beat a dead horse. But once a person comes to the realization that 911 was a government atrocity, their eyes become wide open and they realize that there is nothing beyond the realm of possibility of what they will do in the future. It changes one&#39;s entire perspective on the world immensely. An act such as that can only mean that we must be very close to a cataclysmic change. It is our job to explain that all this is for a very good reason and that Jehovah God has ensured us that the earth will not be destroyed, but will return to its original state, a world-wide Garden of Eden finally realized.

Sometime in the not too distant future, this entire 6,000 year period will just be a blip on the screen of the past.

Sometimes I am guilty of stating theories as facts, I&#39;ll admit it. But in absence of a better explanation I try to let common sense prevail. Combined with how the Bible tells us that the entire movement toward the New World Order is based on lies and deceptions, all I&#39;m trying to do is prove how right the Bible is. Based on all that information, I am sometimes quite surprised how those of us who have had enough powers of perception to find the narrow road in this great big world, can&#39;t see how almost everything these world leaders do is an act of deception. The way they keep the masses guessing is by occasionally sprinkling in the truth. Surely they know that the world will never go back to dark-age tyranny without being terrified into it. So the masses have to really be fooled into believing that they need the government to protect them from fabricated enemies. It&#39;s the oldest mafia trick in the book, demanding extortion to protect them from themselves.

[olrono]

Its useful to listen to others I agree even if one doesnt think they are true. I am becoming more aware of the issues at hand . Its a shame that some are spending lots of time on conspiracy theories but if I am to understand how false or true these things are I must keep up with the rest of you . Plus for those who find these things offensive I must keep up with the fight as I agree with the stance that the "truthers" we be humilated . Plus I also think that the conterfelt kingdom or NWO is itself a counterfelt of a counterfelt. Magic sometimes works best when the observers eye is on the target but his expectation is somewhere else .[/b]
I agree with what you have said 100%, glad to have you aboard! Your brother, Ron

[olrono]

Here are some facts I think we can consider,
<span style="font-family:Arial">It is hard to believe that within the civilized world in the 21st century we would still need to talk about actions used by the Nazi party in Germany to enforce civic conformity to the Nazi ideal. Unfortunately, this is exactly what is taking place in Germany today, and homeschoolers are the targets.

On Feb. 1 Melissa Busekros, a homeschooled 15-year-old from Bavaria, was forcibly removed from her home by a team of 15 SWAT officers. She was placed in the psychiatric wing of a Nuremberg clinic and her parents were not allowed to see her. She was deemed to be suffering from “school phobia.”

Melissa was then taken to another psychiatric institution and her parents were not informed of her location. Eventually Melissa was allowed to call her parents so they could hear her voice, but then the authorities took her to another undisclosed location.

As of this writing, Melissa is allowed a brief, once-per-week visit with her parents, at a government building, but still cannot tell them where she is being held. This ordeal is horrifying for Melissa and her parents.

Aside from the fact that this treatment should not happen to anyone, the Busekros are not a family that should have attracted any police attention. As recently as Dec. 23, the family was pictured in Erlanger Nachrichten, the local daily newspaper, as an example of a rare “model family.” It was the fact that Melissa’s parents chose homeschooling that brought down the wrath of the government.

Melissa had been attending public school but fell behind in math and Latin due to severe classroom disruptions. Her parents decided to homeschool her in these subjects. Melissa continued to participate in music and sang in the choir through the public school. She took advanced courses in English and French at the local community college.

It should be noted that homeschooling is illegal in Germany, but the Busekros family hoped that the school authorities would be flexible since Melissa was no longer subject to full-time attendance requirements. The recalcitrance of German authorities can be traced back to 1938, when Adolf Hitler, fearing that parents had too much influence over their children, banned homeschooling.

This law still exists in Germany today. The German government fears the development of parallel societies and will act aggressively to stop anyone trying to move away from the state-sanctioned educational system. Melissa is just the latest example of heavy-handed state action.

Every person in the civilized world should be shocked and appalled about these events in Germany. If the German government is not held accountable for these actions, then it is likely the problem will spread. If Germany does not recognize the fundamental right of parents to direct the education and upbringing of their children, then it can no longer be considered a free country. In this case, Germany could learn a lesson from the United States.

On this side of the Atlantic, at the moment, we take very different approach. The U.S. Supreme Court case Pierce v. Society of Sisters, 1925, addressed an attempt on the part of Oregon to require all children to attend a public school. In Pierce, the concerns were the same as in Germany. Oregon decided that religious schools were a threat and could produce a parallel society. Therefore, all children should be forced into public school, where all would receive the same education.

The court rightly determined that the child is not the mere creature of the state and consequently there was no compelling government reason to force children into one mode of education. The ruling recognized the fundamental right of parents to direct the education and upbringing of their children.

This ruling has served the country well. While there are regular conflicts with state authorities, parental rights are still generally upheld within the court system.

The concern for the United States is that when U.S. judges look to foreign precedents to inform their decisions, parental rights could be in jeopardy. The fight for freedom is becoming globalized. What happens in other countries can find its way to our shores.

It is hoped that the German government will do the right thing and relent from pursuing parents who want to exercise their fundamental right to homeschool their children in peace.

Michael Smith is the president of the Home School Legal Defense Association

[olrono]

I know we will find different views among our brothers about “home schooling” but we have to remember it is a fundamental right to be able to bring up our children in the education and BELIEFS as we the parents want. Because of United Nations treaties the United States have signed, judges are consistently looking to “world precedence” and world case law to determine out comes of U.S. court decisions. This is the point I want to make, if we really believe the Bible in that we should obey the “superior authorities” we have to understand that the superior authority is the Law, and the superior Law is the Constitution. When judges ignore our Law under article six of our Constitution and look to “world Law” under U.N. treaties, we do not have to obey them and have a worried conscience about it before Jehovah. For when judges disregard the Law and actually do their own law to them selves, they are no different from criminals and law breakers as the Mafia. I truly believe this is the diabolical plan of the UN in their endeavor to bring about world government, world religion, is the destruction of the Nation States and their protections of God given liberty. For years the United States was the leader to the world in God given Liberty and have persuaded the rest of the world in liberal freedom of religion, now with the United Nations they are in fact leading the way into the N.W.O. and I believe with the infiltration of the U.N. into our precious organization we are in fact getting clouded doctrine, confused doctrine, so as to march our brothers into the concentration camps believing they are obeying Jehovah as we sing Kingdom songs on the way to the Gas chambers. I sincerely believe it is our responsibility to know our God given rights as to not be misled and take every advantage of our citizenship the same as our apostle Paul gave us in his example. There is a lot of responsibly in knowing our rights, and the Watchtower has not understandably helped much in this regard. I would like to openly discuss Romans Chapter 13: and any other pertinent Scriptures with our friends here. Thank You, O’l Rono

[Sketch]

lookie what i found... a video of WTC-7 on fire... looks like the WHOLE side is on fire... go figure...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afb7eUHr64U


/beating a dead horse can be FUN!!

[Nambo]

lookie what i found... a video of WTC-7 on fire... looks like the WHOLE side is on fire... go figure...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afb7eUHr64U


/beating a dead horse can be FUN!![/b]


Sketch, you are naughty, still, I only saw flames coming out of about 3 windows, compare this to other steel frame buildings that really where on fire and didnt fall down, plenty of comparisons on you-tube for you.

But, seeing how you got away with posting a link, I would dare to post this one http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/febru...07building7.htm (http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2007/260207building7.htm) where you can click on the you tube clip of a BBC live archieve, where they reported WT7 had fallen down, 20 minutes before it actually did, the BBC have been quite embarressed about this it has implications that the news media where given a pre-written script of the days events including such instant knowledge about who actually did it, (thought that seems to be constantly changing depending on who America wants to go to war with on any particular day).