The Day Of Jehovah

[watchman]

Hello Everyone

A new brochure has been made available for purchase entitled: The Day of Jehovah -What it will mean for Jehovah’s Witnesses. (http://e-watchman.com/brochures/)

The information has also been produced as an audio podcast. The content is based upon a consideration of the Hebrew prophecy of Joel. It is not anything particularly groundbreaking though, as it is merely a refresh of an essay published about 5 years ago. Nevertheless, while readers of e-watchman may already be familiar with it, for those yet unacquainted with e-watchman’s take on Joel it is potentially explosive information.

The purpose of producing a brochure is to make a visually more appealing and professional looking presentation to facilitate its distribution among Jehovah’s Witnesses.

I would like to encourage as many of you as are inclined to purchase several copies of the brochure from the lulu.com website to share with Jehovah’s Witnesses who may not use the Internet or who are distrustful of information printed out from websites. Of course, if you are an active JW you may want to use discretion in order to avoid being hauled before a judicial committee and charged with apostasy.

As for me, over the next few weeks I will be mailing out the brochure to every kingdom hall in the U.K.

By way of suggestion to those who may wish to help out, perhaps you could find the mailing address of a local circuit overseer in your area and mail him a copy of the brochure. Or send a copy to an individual or department head at Bethel, either Brooklyn or Paterson, New York. Perhaps you could use a post office box or some alternative return address. I haven’t looked into it but perhaps the brochure can be mailed anonymously from the Lulu website.

Also, the October news letter is now available, which is intended for print-out and is a primer for the brochure.

Eventually Jesus is going to commence the judgment of the house of God. The WT will be thoroughly discredited due to the fact that they have misled Jehovah’s Witnesses concerning the presence of Christ having supposedly begun back in 1914. Then JW’s will be receptive to the truth. But it is vital that Jehovah’s oncoming judgments be published beforehand. That is what the original prophets and watchmen were charged by Jehovah to do. That’s what I am trying to do.

Thanks, watchman

[watchman]

I might add that the audio is listed on the podcast page as October 14th podcast. Also Timothy just added a link to the audio on the preview page.

[watchman]

I wanted to ask the readers of the board who live in the UK if you would be so kind as to forward to me the personal names of overseers of specific congregations in the UK. There is always a much better chance of the brochure being received and read if it is addressed to an elder of the congregation rather than just to a kingdom hall of Jehovah's Witnesses. Also, if you could pass on the names of congregations that share kingdom halls, even without an elder's name, I will mail each congregation a brochure rather than just one per hall. Also, if anyone knows the names and mailing addresses of circuit or district overseers that would be splendid. Or if anyone knows the personal names of overseers at the Ridgeway Bethel and could pass them on to me that would also be appreciated. Please PM me the info. Thanks for your help.

[Jinnvisible]

Joel audiocast* </a>

Wikipedia

Joel was probably a resident of Judah, as his commission was to that people. He made frequent visits to Jerusalem (1:14; 2:1, 15, 32; 3:1, 12, 17, 20, 21). The name Joel was common in Israel and is usually interpreted as meaning Yahweh is God.

Scholars debate the date of Joel with four main schools of thought:
835-796BC During the time when Joash was too young to govern and Jehoiada did so in his place (2 Kings 11; 2 Chron. 23-24).
About 775-725BC Roughly contemporary with Hosea and Amos.
About 500BC Roughly contemporary with Zechariah.
About 639-608BC during Josiah&#39;s reign.
A prophecy of a great public calamity then impending over the land, consisting of a want of water and an extraordinary plague of locusts (1:1-2:11).
The prophet then calls on his countrymen to repent and to turn to God, assuring them of his readiness to forgive (2:12-17), and foretelling the restoration of the land to its accustomed fruitfulness (18-26).
Then follows a prophecy which is interpreted as Messianic within Christian tradition.
Finally, the prophet foretells portents and judgments as destined to fall on the enemies of God (ch. 3, but in the Hebrew text 4).
</span>

[Jinnvisible]

Joel audiocast*</span></a></div>
<div align="left">*** it-2 Joel, Book of *** WTBTS</div>
<div align="left">Locust invasion to strip the land; the day of Jehovah is near (1:1–2:11)</div>
<div align="left">The coming plague will be talked about for generations</div>
<div align="left">The vegetation of the land will be stripped so that grain and drink offerings will cease at Jehovah&#39;s house</div>
<div align="left">Priests are told to mourn and cry to Jehovah for help</div>
<div align="left">Jehovah&#39;s day is marked by a destructive invasion of "his military force"</div>
<div align="left">Israel invited to return to Jehovah; His spirit to be poured out (2:12-32)</div>
<div align="left">The inhabitants of Zion are invited to "come back" to Jehovah; he will restore their prosperity and protect them from "the northerner"</div>
<div align="left">Jehovah will pour out his spirit on his people, and he will give portents in the heavens and on earth before his "great and fear-inspiring day"</div>
<div align="left">Those calling on Jehovah&#39;s name will escape during his great day</div>
<div align="left">The nations will be judged in "the low plain of Jehoshaphat" (3:1-21)</div>
<div align="left">The nations will be judged for mistreating God&#39;s people</div>
<div align="left">They are challenged to prepare themselves for war against Jehovah and to come down to the low plain of Jehoshaphat; there they will be crushed like grapes in a winepress</div>
<div align="left">At that time Jehovah will be a refuge for his people</div>
<div align="left">Egypt and Edom will become a wilderness, whereas Judah will be inhabited and produce abundantly; Jehovah will reside in Zion</div>
</span>

[Orchid]

That was a very good read. Thanks ^^

Just one question, where do people like me, and others on this board, who are no longer "IN" the organization fit into "God&#39;s People"?

It&#39;s my understand the after the Watchtower falls, God&#39;s people will be scattered, and then regathered after repentance? How will we know when regathering happens?

[FutureMan]

That was a very good read. Thanks ^^

Just one question, where do people like me, and others on this board, who are no longer "IN" the organization fit into "God&#39;s People"?

It&#39;s my understand the after the Watchtower falls, God&#39;s people will be scattered, and then regathered after repentance? How will we know when regathering happens?[/b]

Hello there Orchard, Presuming that the interpretation of this prophecy about the sheep being scattered is correct, of which it now looks like is very likely, then as the Scripture in Matthew 24:27,28 suggests, we need to be where the figurative eagles will be gathered. They will be gathered where the figurative carcass is or where the body is.
Another scripture in Mark 13:26,27 indicates that this could also mean this same situation where all the chosen ones from the four corners of the earth are gathered together when Jesus comes. Together in the sense of where they all come to under the same banner, so to speak.

Hope this helps from FutureMan

[Jinnvisible]

Just one question, where do people like me, and others on this board, who are no longer "IN" the organization fit into "God&#39;s People"?[/b]

You are already on track Orchid. Due to the fact that have concerned yourself with it.

[Anthony]

Hello there Orchard, Presuming that the interpretation of this prophecy about the sheep being scattered is correct, of which it now looks like is very likely, then as the Scripture in Matthew 24:27,28 suggests, we need to be where the figurative eagles will be gathered. They will be gathered where the figurative carcass is or where the body is.
Another scripture in Mark 13:26,27 indicates that this could also mean this same situation where all the chosen ones from the four corners of the earth are gathered together when Jesus comes. Together in the sense of where they all come to under the same banner, so to speak.

Hope this helps from FutureMan
[/quote]

I have often wondered about this scripture speaking of Eagles and Carcass. Eagles feed on living prey, on the other hand vultures feed off of carcass. Also a carcass is a dead or dying, dirty smelling flesh. Why would Jesus compare himself to a carcass? and Why would Eagles gather to it? My thought is that he was just warning about false Christs and false prophets arising. So I thought it meant that where the carcass is found that&#39;s where all the mislead people will be and to stay away. Just my thoughts.

[FutureMan]

Hi there Anthony, I appreciate your thoughts on this subject, but from my perspective, eagles in the bible are referred to as being farsighted creatures.
One of the attributes of jehovah is represent by the face of an eagle which symbolizes wisdom. (Ezekiel 10:14) Here in this scripture my interlinear is referring to the Hebrew word "nshr" as vulture, but in the NWT this word is translated as eagle. The greek word is "aetoi" is translated as vultures.
Other bible commentators refer to the carcass or the body as applying to the ransom sacrifice and the new covernant. The Eagles are feeding of the body in the sense where they are being fed spiritually by Jesus Christ by means of his Holy spirit and also that the application of the ransom sacrifice has being applied to them for forgiveness of sin and salvation.

Here is another scripture in Luke that gives more light on this subject (Luke 17:55-37) In Revelation 12:14 NWT, it talks about the great eagle. Here in the interlinear it also refers to the word "AETOY" as vulture. So what bird are we talking about here a vulture or an eagle? It appears that an Eagle in the bible is refered to as in the category of a vulture.

Some more insight from FutureMan

[Jinnvisible]

Joel audiocast*</span></a></div>
</span>

[watchman]

Joel audiocast*</span></a>
</span>[/b][/quote]

By way of reminder videos and podcasts may also be accessed from the e-watchman.com site as well. Click on the DOWNLOAD MEDIA button on the front page of e-w or from the dial-up classic e-w page click on MULTIMEDIA that will take you to the media download page (http://e-watchman.com/watchman-multimedia-collection.html)

[Jinnvisible]

It&#39;s my understand the after the Watchtower falls, God&#39;s people will be scattered, and then regathered after repentance? How will we know when regathering happens?[/b]

I don`t think anyone knows the details of all that yet. Staying tuned / watching for it is important though, hoping and having faith even if your expression of that is limited.

[Jinnvisible]

<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>The Watchtower cracks me up about the locust`s being Jehovah`s witnesses.

The official wtbts doctrine of,,,,, `anything awesome in there,,,, ~ thats us.`

I do believe that arc ~ Michael is Christ. So I suppose I`d better laugh whilst I can.

[Tsaphah]

Hopefullly this information will lend some understanding to the scriptures spoken of. This is a direct quote from An Expository Dictionary Of New Testament Words with their Precise Meanings for English Readers by W.E. Vine, M.A.

"EAGLE
AETOS (áerós), an eagle (also a vulture), is perhaps connected with aemi, to blow, as of the wind, on account of its windlike flight. In Matt. 24 : 28 and Luke 17 : 37 the vultures are probably intended. The meaning seems to be that, as these birds of prey gather where the carcase is, so the judgments of God will descend upon the corrupt state of humanity. The figure of the eagle is used in Ezek. 17 to represent the great powers of Egypt and Babylon, as being employed to punish corrupt and faithless Israel. Cp. Job 39 : 30 ; Prov. 30 : 17. The eagle is mentioned elsewhere in the N.T. in Rev. 4 : 7; 8 : 13 (R.V.) ; 12 :14.
There are eight species in Palestine."

Also read Job 39:27-30 for a biblical description of the actions of eagles. Verse 30 is similar to Matt. 24:28

Here is something interesting I have found is reading this from the original Greek. The word that is translated as carcase or corpse (Greek=ptoma) can also have the meaning of a fall or downfall, an error, lapse into sin. Or the meaning “to fall into judgement”. This is according to Strongs number 4430 and the alternative 4098 (Greek=pipto). Eagle is also translated as vulture. When used in context of what Jesus Christ was discussing, “False prophets and false Christs” who would mislead many.

It could read as, “wherever those who fall into judgement are, the vultures will gather.” In a metaphorical sense, where there is easy prey, there will be those who take advantage of them also. If you fall for the lie and don’t have proper knowledge of Jehovah and Jesus, you will be prey for the wolves in sheeps clothing.

Agape.
Tsaphah

[SlaveForJah]

The Carcass is the Ransom of Christ Jesus. The Eagles are those that gather around the power of that provision for Redemption.


Agape

SlaveForJah

[Tsaphah]

The Carcass is the Ransom of Christ Jesus. The Eagles are those that gather around the power of that provision for Redemption.

Agape

SlaveForJah[/b]
This appears to be your opinion. Can you please give me some scriptural references that show that the carcass represents the ransom and the eagles represent those who believe in the power of that redemption? I don’t believe that in the context of what Jesus was talking about would include a statement using a corpse or carcass as representing his sacrifice and the eagles as those believing in it.

For one thing, I don’t believe Jesus would use a carcass to represent his sacrifice because contact with a carcass, made an Israelite ceremonially unclean, and made whatever he touched also unclean, according to the Mosaic law (Hag. 2:13-14; comp. Num. 19:16, 22; Lev. 11:39). Eagles were also considered unclean animals. (Lev. 11:13, Deut. 14:12) Eagles are predators and they also eat dead animals. I don’t believe that Jesus would use a predator to also represent someone who would take provision in his sacrifice. Those who take the provision of the ransom sacrifice are usually referred to as sheep.

This is not my opinion.

Tsaphah

[Utuna]

That was a very good read. Thanks ^^

Just one question, where do people like me, and others on this board, who are no longer "IN" the organization fit into "God&#39;s People"?

It&#39;s my understand the after the Watchtower falls, God&#39;s people will be scattered, and then regathered after repentance? How will we know when regathering happens?[/b]

Dear Orchard,

According to my understanding of the question, it seems that anointed members will receive the fullest expression of the Holy Spirit, and have the fullest understanding of the Bible and God&#39;s will when Jesus manifests himself to them. Then, becoming what the Bible calls the "two witnesses", they will receive a mission which may be similar to Jesus&#39; and/or his disciples when he was on earth. The fate of thousands of humans will be how they respond to their teachings and "miracles". Evil forces being the eighth king, some kind of remains of the discarded evil slave or its successors (see essay mystery of the Antichrist), Babylone the Great, the false prophet, etc.
The Watchtower will be gone and the real challenge will be to find the truth and the true sons of God among the real mess that Satan will make on earth.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Utuna]

<div class='quotemain'><span style="font-family:Book Antiqua">"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Tsaphah]

Hello Utuna
My whole purpose for participating in this forum is to teach. I have a gift that I can use for helping others see the magnificence of Jehovah’s word. I’ve often wondered if the new language we will speak will be Hebrew. It is a wonderful language. Whenever I come across a root word that is used in an expression, I get the Ohh feeling. The light bulbs go off in my head and I can’t help but smile. This is true with Greek also. My understanding of these languages took a very long time. With the help of many other books and many internet resource sites, I have gained more knowledge. I keep searching and keep finding. I also keep asking for more understanding from Jehovah. (Pr. 3:5-6, 9:10-11, Ps. 146:3, Jer. 17:5-10)

I remember the scripture at Micah 7:5 as this is covering the time of the end and is spoken of by Jesus Christ in Mt. 10:36. That is why, especially at this time in history, we must STUDY God’s word to get a deeper understanding of what we must do in standing before Jehovah.

By the way, for those who are curious about my user name, it is in Micah 7:7. The last word in the first sentence.

Agape,
Tsaphah

[SlaveForJah]

<div class='quotemain'>The Carcass is the Ransom of Christ Jesus. The Eagles are those that gather around the power of that provision for Redemption.

Agape

SlaveForJah[/b]
This appears to be your opinion. Can you please give me some scriptural references that show that the carcass represents the ransom and the eagles represent those who believe in the power of that redemption? I don&#39;t believe that in the context of what Jesus was talking about would include a statement using a corpse or carcass as representing his sacrifice and the eagles as those believing in it.

For one thing, I don&#39;t believe Jesus would use a carcass to represent his sacrifice because contact with a carcass, made an Israelite ceremonially unclean, and made whatever he touched also unclean, according to the Mosaic law (Hag. 2:13-14; comp. Num. 19:16, 22; Lev. 11:39). Eagles were also considered unclean animals. (Lev. 11:13, Deut. 14:12) Eagles are predators and they also eat dead animals. I don&#39;t believe that Jesus would use a predator to also represent someone who would take provision in his sacrifice. Those who take the provision of the ransom sacrifice are usually referred to as sheep.

This is not my opinion.

Tsaphah</span>


[/b][/quote]

Hmmm...so what I believe is relegated to opinion? But what YOU believe is NOT opinion, and therefore FACT? I&#39;m glad you believe whatever it is you believe. I&#39;m also glad that Christ will not judge me based on what YOU believe.

An interesting tidbit about belief: it has ZERO to do with truth.

I appreciate your take on things, however, I am still of the belief, or in your words, the opinion, that Jesus was telling us that we wouldn&#39;t need someone to tell us of his presence, but that it would be plainly obvious to all with eyes of faith. Just as the lightning is plainly visible and anounces the storm, the sight of carrion birds in the sky denotes the presence of a carcass on the ground; so the presence of the Son of Man will be. Jesus&#39; return will not need trumpets or fanfare or Special Tract Campaigns. Christ gave us the signs, and one of those was the FACT that false prophets and false messiahs would attempt to divert those who were seeking the presence of the True Messiah to following themselves. Thus we are told not to rely on the words of men, but rather to put our faith in Christ. Those with eyes of faith would be able to gather based on their faith in Jehovah&#39;s acceptance of Jesus&#39; Ransom on their behalf.

As far as Scriptural citations...I thought we were all reading the same passage. But, just in case, I am referring to Jesus&#39; following words in Matthew:

<span style="color:#0000ff">"23 "Then if anyone says to YOU, &#39;Look! Here is the Christ,&#39; or, &#39;There!&#39; do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned YOU. 26 Therefore, if people say to YOU, &#39;Look! He is in the wilderness,&#39; do not go out; &#39;Look! He is in the inner chambers,&#39; do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 28 Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together." - Matthew 24:23-28


Agape

SlaveForJah

[Anthony]

<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>The Carcass is the Ransom of Christ Jesus. The Eagles are those that gather around the power of that provision for Redemption.

Agape

SlaveForJah[/b]
This appears to be your opinion. Can you please give me some scriptural references that show that the carcass represents the ransom and the eagles represent those who believe in the power of that redemption? I don&#39;t believe that in the context of what Jesus was talking about would include a statement using a corpse or carcass as representing his sacrifice and the eagles as those believing in it.

For one thing, I don&#39;t believe Jesus would use a carcass to represent his sacrifice because contact with a carcass, made an Israelite ceremonially unclean, and made whatever he touched also unclean, according to the Mosaic law (Hag. 2:13-14; comp. Num. 19:16, 22; Lev. 11:39). Eagles were also considered unclean animals. (Lev. 11:13, Deut. 14:12) Eagles are predators and they also eat dead animals. I don&#39;t believe that Jesus would use a predator to also represent someone who would take provision in his sacrifice. Those who take the provision of the ransom sacrifice are usually referred to as sheep.

This is not my opinion.

Tsaphah</span>


[/b][/quote]

Hmmm...so what I believe is relegated to opinion? But what YOU believe is NOT opinion, and therefore FACT? I&#39;m glad you believe whatever it is you believe. I&#39;m also glad that Christ will not judge me based on what YOU believe.

An interesting tidbit about belief: it has ZERO to do with truth.

I appreciate your take on things, however, I am still of the belief, or in your words, the opinion, that Jesus was telling us that we wouldn&#39;t need someone to tell us of his presence, but that it would be plainly obvious to all with eyes of faith. Just as the lightning is plainly visible and anounces the storm, the sight of carrion birds in the sky denotes the presence of a carcass on the ground; so the presence of the Son of Man will be. Jesus&#39; return will not need trumpets or fanfare or Special Tract Campaigns. Christ gave us the signs, and one of those was the FACT that false prophets and false messiahs would attempt to divert those who were seeking the presence of the True Messiah to following themselves. Thus we are told not to rely on the words of men, but rather to put our faith in Christ. Those with eyes of faith would be able to gather based on their faith in Jehovah&#39;s acceptance of Jesus&#39; Ransom on their behalf.

As far as Scriptural citations...I thought we were all reading the same passage. But, just in case, I am referring to Jesus&#39; following words in Matthew:

<span style="color:#0000ff">"23 "Then if anyone says to YOU, &#39;Look! Here is the Christ,&#39; or, &#39;There!&#39; do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned YOU. 26 Therefore, if people say to YOU, &#39;Look! He is in the wilderness,&#39; do not go out; &#39;Look! He is in the inner chambers,&#39; do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 28 Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together." - Matthew 24:23-28


Agape

SlaveForJah



[/b][/quote]


http://members.aol.com/joyinliving7/mat24.html

[uglyandthin]

<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>The Carcass is the Ransom of Christ Jesus. The Eagles are those that gather around the power of that provision for Redemption.

Agape

SlaveForJah[/b]
This appears to be your opinion. Can you please give me some scriptural references that show that the carcass represents the ransom and the eagles represent those who believe in the power of that redemption? I don&#39;t believe that in the context of what Jesus was talking about would include a statement using a corpse or carcass as representing his sacrifice and the eagles as those believing in it.

For one thing, I don&#39;t believe Jesus would use a carcass to represent his sacrifice because contact with a carcass, made an Israelite ceremonially unclean, and made whatever he touched also unclean, according to the Mosaic law (Hag. 2:13-14; comp. Num. 19:16, 22; Lev. 11:39). Eagles were also considered unclean animals. (Lev. 11:13, Deut. 14:12) Eagles are predators and they also eat dead animals. I don&#39;t believe that Jesus would use a predator to also represent someone who would take provision in his sacrifice. Those who take the provision of the ransom sacrifice are usually referred to as sheep.

This is not my opinion.

Tsaphah</span>


[/b][/quote]

Hmmm...so what I believe is relegated to opinion? But what YOU believe is NOT opinion, and therefore FACT? I&#39;m glad you believe whatever it is you believe. I&#39;m also glad that Christ will not judge me based on what YOU believe.

An interesting tidbit about belief: it has ZERO to do with truth.

I appreciate your take on things, however, I am still of the belief, or in your words, the opinion, that Jesus was telling us that we wouldn&#39;t need someone to tell us of his presence, but that it would be plainly obvious to all with eyes of faith. Just as the lightning is plainly visible and anounces the storm, the sight of carrion birds in the sky denotes the presence of a carcass on the ground; so the presence of the Son of Man will be. Jesus&#39; return will not need trumpets or fanfare or Special Tract Campaigns. Christ gave us the signs, and one of those was the FACT that false prophets and false messiahs would attempt to divert those who were seeking the presence of the True Messiah to following themselves. Thus we are told not to rely on the words of men, but rather to put our faith in Christ. Those with eyes of faith would be able to gather based on their faith in Jehovah&#39;s acceptance of Jesus&#39; Ransom on their behalf.

As far as Scriptural citations...I thought we were all reading the same passage. But, just in case, I am referring to Jesus&#39; following words in Matthew:

<span style="color:#0000ff">"23 "Then if anyone says to YOU, &#39;Look! Here is the Christ,&#39; or, &#39;There!&#39; do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned YOU. 26 Therefore, if people say to YOU, &#39;Look! He is in the wilderness,&#39; do not go out; &#39;Look! He is in the inner chambers,&#39; do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 28 Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together." - Matthew 24:23-28


Agape

SlaveForJah



[/b][/quote]


http://members.aol.com/joyinliving7/mat24.html
[/b][/quote]

Hi Anthony:

This is an interesting scripture that Slave for Jah sites. I have been interested in the wording of this scripture for some time. Notice that in 3 of the four instances that Jesus mentions that others would point to where Jesus would be on his coming again, he says "do not believe it". This is 1. when they say he is here 2. or thier, 3. or "He is in the inner chambers", do not believe it. But as for the fourth statement "Look, he is in the wilderness, Jesus says not "do not believe it" but "do not go out". Why the difference? It would have been much easier and verbally economical to say "do not believe it" to all four, if that is what Jesus meant. I don&#39;t think Jesus speaks for ease sake. He speaks to communicate what is real. So, what does the statement "do not go out" mean and what relevence does it have for Christians who are anxiously awaiting the arrival of Jesus in these tumultuous times? When Jesus was Baptized by John in the Jordon river was really when Jesus "came" the first time around. It was when he was annointed and started his vital ministry on earth. But prior to that "seperating" work that he would do in the first Century he went into the "wilderness" to be ultimately tempted by the Devil. Whether that was the prime reason he went into the wilderness, I do not know. I would think it was to fulfill scripture, to meditate on his task at hand and to seek the power and strength from his Heavenly Father to prepare him for his task at hand. Satan&#39;s tempting was Satan&#39;s attempt to derail this purpose.

When Jesus comes again, whether personally or through his flesh, his bride of 144,000 would there be a time that they would be present here on earth but somehow "in the wilderness" preparing for the seperating work that is near at hand? It would be fruitless for the disciples who are watching and looking for Jesus coming to go to the wilderness to look because it is not the hour yet for that to happen (John 7:30, 8:20). Is Jesus encouraging us to be patient, don&#39;t listen to any of the rumours, when the hour does come he will reveal himself to his disciples in due time? I think that is so.

As far as who the carcass is and who the eagles are. Could it be that the carcass is the remnant of the body of Christ here on earth that is dead due to a lack of spirit (James 2:26). Could they have lost that spirit almost 7 years ago when they showed a total lack of repentence when called to task for their adulterous relationship with Satan&#39;s counterfeit Kingdom organization (the U.N.) and put forth as thier defense that they were just seeking a "library card". We as individuals are disfellowshipped, not for wrongdoing per se, as we do wrong every day. It is rather the lack of repentence before our fellow man and God that leads to our removal from the congregation. It is like we are "dead" and without spirit. We are also treated as such by the congregation. We are like "dead bodies" that they are instructed not to touch, in case they should be contaminated by our unrighteousness. Would it be any different for the "body" that represents the Christ on earth. A similar lack of repentence when being called to task would lead to their being disfellowshipped by God, and viewed as if they are dead. It would be appropriate to view them as a dead carcass. They are indeed still a body, but they lack the spirit of life that allows them to be alive. It is interesting to note that it has been 7 years (or times) from when they lied and were possibly disfellowshipped by God for their lack of repentence.

What the eagles are is a different story for another time. Just my opinion.

uglyandthin

[Steadfast]

Dear Friends,

Could this be the killing of the two witnesses, and the gathered eagles are those who rejoice and send gifts to one another?

Mat 24:28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered.

The sequence of events that follow shows the coming of Jesus Christ to gather his dead bride:

Mat 24:29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

Mat 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Love,

Steadfast

[Tsaphah]

[/quote]
Hmmm...so what I believe is relegated to opinion? But what YOU believe is NOT opinion, and therefore FACT? I&#39;m glad you believe whatever it is you believe. I&#39;m also glad that Christ will not judge me based on what YOU believe.

An interesting tidbit about belief: it has ZERO to do with truth.
[/quote]

To Slaveforjah:
My post was not a personal attack against you. As I said, “This is not my opinion.” Opinions are a dime a dozen and everyone has one. My opinion means zero. What matters most in all of this is, what the bible says. Period. If you or anyone, including the “faithful and discreet slave”, cannot prove from the scriptures, a valid point, it is worthless. (2 Ti. 3:16, 2 Pe. 1:20) I never lean on my own understanding. (Pr. 3:5, 9:10) What I believe and what anyone else believes, mean nothing. (Ps. 146:3) I give everything the litmus test, with the bible. (1 Jo. 4:1)

“Belief and seeing are often both wrong. We see incorrectly, or we see only half of a story at times. We see what we want to believe.” – Robert McNamara

Eventually we will have to adjust our thinking and beliefs. If we don’t do that, we will continue along on the same path. This is an amazing human attribute. Our minds change what we see and perceive to be, into what WE WANT to see and BELIEVE. So if we have erroneous or faulty information to begin with, we will have a misconception of what is real. That’s why eyewitness testimony is considered to be suspect. Because of the emotions involved at the time of what we see, and of course, what we really want to believe at that time, our judgment is tainted. (Jer. 17:5)

Many of these misconceptions are imprinted from birth. Our core values are imprinted into our minds and heart by our parents, family, friends, and environment. What we are taught or told sticks like glue. It is difficult to erase or change those beliefs. They continue to linger, especially if they are pleasant for us and give us comfort.

I hope that I am wrong, but it appears to me that some on this forum never take the time to read the scriptures that I list, or the references. I mostly refuse to quote them because I want people to look them up, and read them, contemplate what the meaning is. Research and study the word of God. (Jn. 17:3)

I also know where the idea that you suggest comes from. It is not scripturally based. It is a teaching that comes from Christendom. A long standing teaching. This is what the priests taught in Catechism classes.

When I ask for scriptural references, I am asking for references that will back up the claims that are being made, not a quote of the scripture being discussed. Your reference should have included the beginning of the illustration at Mt 24:3.

Anthony: Your link also goes to a site which has erronous information taught by the Catholic church. It is this same teaching.

There was a statement “Now, an eagle is a predator that only goes after live prey.” This is not a true statement. Eagles will eat whatever they can find, dead or alive. I used to be a hunter also. I gave it up many years ago. I personally have watched an eagle take a dead rabbit from a coyote. I have also seen bald eagles take salmon from wolves and bears. They prefer to hunt for live prey but an easy mark is much less work. On other thing I have observed while hunting. Eagles usually don&#39;t eat their prey gathering together. The take their prey and fly to a safe place to eat it.

How can I say this with confidence? This teaching continues to promote communion. The taking of the wafer which represents “the body of Christ”. This ceremony is being performed millions of times daily.

What we choose to believe is often not clearly understood. (1 Co. 13:9-12) One thing that you must do is not use 20th or 21st century thinking. You have to put yourself back in the day of which these words were written. You have to understand what the understanding of the Israelites was at that time. How would they understand was being said? Remember also that Jesus was teaching a nation that was familiar with what we call the Hebrew scriptures. They also had other books and writings that were used by the Pharisees and Saducees, along with the teachings of other Jewish sects.

Jesus was teaching from the word of God. He of course was the spokesman for Jehovah. I don’t need to give a scriptural reference here. He either quoted what was written or was referencing what had been written with his illustrations or examples. After his death and resurrection, he added clarity to what was written. (Mt. 24:27-32)

Here is a quote from the Tyndale Bible Dictionary under the Vulture pg 223. The 26 references mentioned in the bible are for the Hebrew word nesher, which has the meaning, “to tear to pieces with the teeth, to rend (as a bird of prey), the beak of a bird of prey.

“The Hebrew word usually translated “eagle” in the OT may have been a general term for all large birds of prey, including vultures. Thus many passages about eagles may refer to either the eagle or the vulture (cf.Lv 11:13; Dt 14:12, NASB mg). Such passages include references to nesting habits (Jb 39:27-28; Jer 49:16; Ob 1:4), care for fledglings (Dt 32:11), powers of flight (Ex. 19:4; Dt 28:49; Jb 9:26; Lam 4:19), and extremely high soaring altitude (Pv 23:5; 30:19; Is 40:31). Despite variations among translations, the vulture clearly belongs in the list of unclean birds because of its foul diet. (Lv 11:13, 18; Dt 14:12, 17).

Several references to the eagle in the KJV have been changed to “vulture” in modern translations. The change seems appropriate in the references to the vulture as a sign of present or impending doom (Lam 4:19, Hos 8:1). Likewise the eye-plucking bird of Proverbs 30:17 is probably a vulture. The phrase “bald as the eagle” (Mi 1:16) clearly should read “bald as the vulture” since there are no bald eagles in Israel and most vultures are bald. Since the vulture, like the eagle, was a symbol of sovereignty and domination in the ancient Near East, some gods were represented as vultures. Thus Ezekiel’s comparison of the kings of Babylon and Egypt to eagles may be conceived alternatively as comparisons to vultures (Ez 17:3, 7). Jesus’ reference to the eagles congregating around corpses at the end times (Mt 24:28) should also be revised to vultures, since eagles are usually solitary eaters, whereas vultures generally flock together around carrion.

Several KJV references to vultures are usually translated “kite” or “falcon” in modern translations (cf various versions of Lv 11:14; Dt 14:13, Jb 28:7; Is 34:15).”

There are many other references to other types of vultures in this reference dictionary. I won’t take the time to quote them as I feel if you are interested, you will seek out and purchase one.

If you don’t want to take the time to check out these references and see how the bible backs up what is being said, ask e-watchman what his take is on this subject.

This will be my last post for a while. I have many projects that I have taken time away from and I need to get back to them. I also have several friends that I have been witnessing to and they need my attention. Depending on my time, I will check back to see if there are futher responses. Once again, give me biblical references without personal opinions. Make a statement and back it up with a scripture. (2 Ti. 3:16, 1 Jn 4:1)

Look out for yourselves, that YOU do not lose the things we have worked to produce, but that YOU may obtain a full reward. (2 Jn 1:8)

Tsaphah

[arimatthewdavies]

I gave this talk in the kingdom hall! like i said then we havent yet seen the rise of the true church their are still true jehovah loveing people among the various churchs but soon and very soon you will see all of us come togeather .eagles catch fresh meat and drop it from the air onto a rock[called butcher block] their young swiftly gather at the fresh carcass to feed,the vultures now take anything they can get rotten or fresh, in the day of jehovah those under jehovahs protection will receive spirtual food and physical food fresh droped from the sky[heaven] they will not have to scavenge around for whoever will help them you can pretty much be asured that your flour and oil jar will not go dry ,the bible promises that your eyes will see it,yet you will not be harmed

[arimatthewdavies]

ps the best thing about the day of jehovah is it will answer everyones qustions with a final answer and thereafter we will know the trutn i wonder what we will do with ourselves then? no more strife,no more sects or denominations nothing to fight about i will bet somebody will invent it