Great Tribulation - How Long?

[Steadfast]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

How long is the great tribulation? What scriptures can we show to support a seven year or 3-1/2 year tribulation?

Love, :Love:

Steadfast

[DoubtingThomas]

Rev. 11:3 ^"And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth."



This 3 ½ year's of prophesying by the two witnesses begins a 3 ½ period of time after Jehovah has restored his people (who were disciplined upon Jesus arrival). When Jesus arrives to inspect the House of God, He finds it lacking and begins His judgment by cleaning it out. The Harvest begins. The separating of the sheep and the goats takes place. The first assault on God's people by the King of the North (KON) starts at this time. The land of decoration is invaded. The Watchtower collapses as a worldly organization. True worshipers do exist individually though. But how long are God's people disciplined before this great outpouring of Holy Spirit and prophesying mentioned in Revelation chapter 11?



Excellent topic for discussion. To get the discussion started here is a timeline of Last Days events in the order and sequence that I understand them to occur:



The Last Days





1. To begin The Sign of the Last Days: Jesus said nations shall rise against nation, pestilence, famine, etc. The horsemen of the apocalypse don’t start their ride at this point just yet. These are just the beginnings of the pangs of distress.



2. Jesus is enthroned in the heavens and arrives to inspect the House of God. He finds it lacking and begins His judgment by cleaning it out. The Harvest begins. The separating of the sheep and the goats takes place. The first assault on God’s people by the King of the North (KON) starts at this time. The land of decoration is invaded. The Watchtower collapses as a worldly organization. True worshipers do exist individually though.



3. False religion is still in control. God’s people are taken into captivity and are in a state of exile to Babylon the Great. But after God has humbled his people and The Holy Place is desolated, the re-gathering of the anointed ones begins. Christ re-gathers and liberates them. The Faithful slave is now appointed over all the masters belongings. In some special way the 11^th hour workers are blessed 5x’s as much.



4. War breaks out in heaven and Satan is now ousted to the vicinity of the earth (Rev. 12:7-12). Satan’s “short period of time begins”. This begins the death stroke of the 7^th head of the beast and starts the 3 ½ year period of THE GREAT TRIBULATION and intense persecution of the holy ones (based on the two witnesses prophesying for 3 ½ years?). The Dragon makes war with the woman and her offspring (Rev. 12:13-17).



5. The US continues to be “pushed” by the KON. The KON will create a crisis of such proportion that the US will possibly start WW III and scrap it’s own Constitution. This starts the opening of the 6^th seal in Revelation. During the ensuing global chaos, nuclear war and collapse of the global economy, the 7^th World Power (Anglo-American dyad) receives a death stroke. All seems lost at this point.



6. The beast makes a miraculous recovery from the abyss in the form of the UN (Rev. 13:1-10). It appears to be the savior of the world. It becomes the new KON. (The Anglo-American power actually breathes life into this revived beast). Power is now transferred to the UN’s New World Order. This 8^th and final King exerts rulership in the form of a totalitarian regime. Mankind is forced into accepting the mark of this beast (Rev. 13:11-18).



7. Jehovah has repurchased his people by this time, and restored them. The two witnesses of Revelation have prophesied for 3 ½ years [This period may run concurrently with The Great Tribulation or this may start a second period of 3 ½ years] (Rev. 11:1-6). There has been a great outpouring of holy spirit. At that time “they” (great crowd) will take hold of the skirt of the man who is a spiritual Jew. This report disturbs the Beast (KON) and this begins a second assault on God’s people. This beast then attacks the 144,000. The Beast conquers them and kills them (Rev. 11:7-10). The four angels are still holding back the four winds of destruction until the final sealing of the anointed is complete. When the sons of God (Christ anointed brothers) are no longer on earth it will appear the last King has now defeated God.



8. ALL 144,000 of the anointed are resurrected “The First Resurrection” (Rev. 14:1-5).



9. The 3 angels are described (Rev. 14:6-13) and the harvest of the earth (Rev. 14:14-20).



10. The angels pour out the 7 plaques and 7 bowls of God’s wrath (Rev. 15 & 16).



11. All must now flee Babylon the Great for this harlot which has been riding the beast will now be destroyed by the beast (Rev. 17 & 18). If you are still in BTG at this time, you will suffer the consequences “plaques”. At this point all must receive the 666 mark of the beast or die (Rev. 13:11-18). All will be forced into making this decision to either worship the beast or God. Judgment is based on receiving or not receiving the mark of the beast (Rev. 19:20).



12. Immediately after BTG is destroyed (Rev. 14:8), Jehovah becomes King and the marriage of the Lamb takes place (Rev. 19:1-10).



13. This starts the outbreak of the War of Armageddon (Rev. 19:11-21).



14. The Millenium of 1,000 years of blessings upon mankind begin (Rev. 20 – 22).

[Cephalon]

Steadfast,
Great topic for discussion. :ban_dance01:
I was going to use Rev 11:3, but DT has already explained it very well and he has done a much better job than I could.

Let see what others have to say

[Kenneth]

I feel quite confident that there is a parallel between 66AD (Cestius Gallus) & (General Titus) 70AD in the ransacking and destruction of Jerusalem during the 1^st century tribulation.





Kenneth

[DoubtingThomas]

Hi Kenneth. I have thought about that situation also. Just as Jesus instructed his followers to flee to the mountains when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by encamped Roman armies, at some point in time when we see the Watchtower surrounded by the KNO and ready to go into exile to BTG we should begin our exit from the WT? I don’t know, just speculation on my part. What do you think? What is your take on that parallel?

[Kenneth]

Hi Thomas

I haven't based this on anything in particular other than common sense. Jesus describes the tribulation in Jerusalem graphically from the time of Cestius Gallus to Titus being about three and a half years. Situations just seems to lend themselves to parallels. As for fleeing form the Watchtower this is something I have never real bought into. If the Watchtower is destroyed then what are we fleeing from, nothing. So I'm not sure what the parallel is as respect fleeing. If someone can explain this then please feel free to do so. Yes we will go into exile all of us so there will be no escape. If we could flee then there would be an escape route as they had in the first century to the mountains of Judea. Where is the modern Judea? Most of the parallel to our demise, discipline and restoration is found in Jerusalem's destruction by the Babylonians when all were taken captive.

Kenneth

[DoubtingThomas]

What you say Kenneth makes perfectly good sense (about the WT destruction paralleling Jerusalem’s destructions by the Babylonians NOT the Romans).



So then, let me try this one: Since first century Christians had to endure a period of 3 ½ years of trial and hardship from when the Romans first surrounded the city, until the Jewish system of things finally fell …



Then likewise …



Modern day Christians will have to endure a period of 3 ½ years of trial and hardship from the outbreak of the Great Tribulation, until Satan’s system of things finally falls.



How does that parallel work?

Seems like we can logically tie the 3 1/2 year period in that way.

I am not sure if e-watchman has made any reference to this in his writings. I don't recall reading about it anyway, but i could be wrong.

[Kenneth]

Yes Thomas this is what I'm trying to say. We don't need to get bogged down with too many details it stands to reason that if in the 1^st century it was three and a half years and the book of Revelation talks about 42 months then three and half years it is.







Kenneth

[DoubtingThomas]

So then, let me see if I got this straight. We have 1 period of 3 1/2 years of the two witnesses prophesying and the outpouring of Holy Spirit on God's people.

But when does this period start?

Shortly after the start of the Great Tribulation and the downfall of the Watchtower?

Or is there a period of time (say 3 1/2 years) of trial and tribulation for Christians, before the two witnesses start their work. That equals a total of 7 years from the start of the Great tribulation until the end of Satan's system.

I certainly hope it is only 3 1/2 years NOT 7 years!

[Jeshurun]

The Seven Times of Daniel has still no solution, and it seems quite possible that the beast's reign will be a total of 7 years. The outbreak of World War III will most likely mark the beginning of Christ's Presence. At this time we will receive confirmation from the two witnesses that he has arrived. During this war seems like the logical time for the 7th head to receive the death stroke. This will not be a long war as the Illuminati have planned at as only 13 weeks. When the war ends the UN rises out of the abyss. During it's first 3 1/2 years it will be worshipped as the savior that restored some semblance of law and order. I believe that not long after it rises up, the Watchtower will make an alliance with it, as will all the other religions, in fact they will all be kissing up to it. This is when the disgusting thing is standing in the holy place, and time to "flee Jerusalem", and "get out of her my people". Im thinking this because the "man of lawlessness" will be revealed inside the Watchtower, probably a Jesuit. So the first 3 1/2 years parallels the time from 66 to 70 c.e that Kenneth mentioned. Prophecy says that the Watchtower organization has to be destroyed first, while Babylon the Great taunts it and holds it in derision. Paul said that Jesus would do away with the man of lawlessness by the spirit of his mouth and "bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence". So it seems the anointed and Jesus have a part in his downfall. At that time the Witnesses come under full fledged attack and the escaped ones are in the wilderness. Not long after this event Babylon the Great is destroyed, Also during the final 42 months the anointed are chased down and killed, and when the last one has been sealed, the way has been paved for Armageddon.

In summary the Great tribulation would last the entire time from the beginning of Christ's presence until just before Armageddon. Hopefully I'm wrong but I just can't see how all the necessary events can take place inside 42 months.

[Steadfast]

Dear Brother Jesh,

I don't really see why it would take the UN beast 3-1/2 years to 'set up shop.' Seems to me like they've been doing it since 1945. At most, all it would need is for the world's standing armies to don their UN uniforms, which by the way, they have already done in several world situations that have developed. The other issue would be currency, which I'm sure is already waiting in the wings for the appropriate moment to spring the 'surprise.'

Regarding the seven times in Daniel, does anyone know if there is any historical proof just how long Nebuchadnezar went mad? Was it really 7 literal years or is seven times symbolic of the completness of the situation to develop and end?

Also, does anyone have any thoughts as to the meaning of the 70th week in Daniel 9?

Love, :Love:

Steadfast

[Molly]

Hi All-

Just thought I would throw a little something in to make things more confusing than they already are. Chapter 9 of Revelation refers to Abaddon (Apollyon, in Greek) who was a star fallen from heaven to the earth, and the key of the abyss was given to him. He openned the pit of the abyss and locusts came out with crowns like gold, and the faces like men but hair like women. This has been attributed to the annointed - as men, but as virgins. They were given authority to hurt men for 5 months. I believe Watchmen has referred to these as the chosen when they do their final witness work.

We are already seeing the wars and reports of wars, but presumably there will be an all out war which we may refer to WWIII. This will be cut short on account of the chosen. Perhaps this is when the locusts (annointed) proceed to witness all out to the world for people to get out of Babylon the Great.

The Insight book indicates that Abaddon or Apollyon refers to Christ. The locust refers to the chosen as they do their final witness work.

If the 3 1/2 years is cut shortso that the locusts can prophesy for 5 months, it would mean that the warring would last a little over 3 years before the locust arrive for months, then Babylon the Great would be destroyed, and then Armageddon.

Just a few thoughts. What do you all think?

Molly

[Gabriel]

Interesting....So does this mean that most christians....those who really want God's kingdom, will be killed off or thrown into a concentration camp? Thats the way that im seeing this. Also is it possable that there will be a mass conversion FROM christianity TO the worship of the beast due to fear of death? In all honnesty I dont see myself serviving the GT. I think this is a situation that Jehovah will allow me to suffer to see where my heart really stands due to the fact that I've been struggling to make a definitive one. Then should I prove faithful till death He'll bring me back in the RR.

[olrono]

Interesting....So does this mean that most christians....those who really want God's kingdom, will be killed off or thrown into a concentration camp? Thats the way that im seeing this. Also is it possable that there will be a mass conversion FROM christianity TO the worship of the beast due to fear of death? In all honnesty I dont see myself serviving the GT. I think this is a situation that Jehovah will allow me to suffer to see where my heart really stands due to the fact that I've been struggling to make a definitive one. Then should I prove faithful till death He'll bring me back in the RR.[/b]

Don’t underestimate your self “Little Value”; you may be surprised how much Love Jah has for you! It’s nice that you are humble, but don’t take that “name” of yours too seriously, OK? Agape, Ron

[Molly]

Interesting....So does this mean that most christians....those who really want God's kingdom, will be killed off or thrown into a concentration camp? Thats the way that im seeing this. Also is it possable that there will be a mass conversion FROM christianity TO the worship of the beast due to fear of death? In all honnesty I dont see myself serviving the GT. I think this is a situation that Jehovah will allow me to suffer to see where my heart really stands due to the fact that I've been struggling to make a definitive one. Then should I prove faithful till death He'll bring me back in the RR.[/b]

Dear LittleValue-

Your self depracating name does not even coincide with Jehovah's concern for you. From some of your posts I have discerned that you have a real love for Jehovah and isn't that that what really counts? Jehovah loves humble - and you got it!!! There will no doubt be enormous trials that we will all face, but even if we die, we are in Jehovah's memory. Just remember that if Satan has you put to death, you are proving him a liar and demonstrating that you love Jehovah more than life. That is the accusation that Satan hurled at Jehovah in Job chapters 1 & 2. He believes that you would love your life more than Jehovah. So, even if we do die, what a privelege to prove Satan was wrong, oh, so wrong!!!

Molly

[stayawake]

Oh LV, your here aren't you, with lovers of Jehovah, so thats a feather in your cap. We are all here in the right place at the right time.
Yes if you are fathful until the end which may mean death for some ,you will be in the ressurection
.Remember there will be a Great Crowd which no man was able to Number ,that is going to come out of the GT.
I like to think that the society counts over six million of just JWS so you can ,or is it can't imagine the number, that will respond to the Kingdom Message from all over the world from all nations and wakes of life, Jah says that no man was able to number this GC, The choice will be to whom do we belong.Satans counterfiet earthly goverment, or Gods Messeanic goverment.
If we are faithful thru the GT we will be protected when Jehovah steps in at "A".
Must remember it is the annointed that MUST and WILL die,in order for the Messeanic Kingdom to go into action,
but we who will stand by Christs brothers and help all we can are judged accordingly, then along with and a part of the GC that respond to Matt 24:14 & Rev 18:3, will be the earthly subjects of that blessed new
heavenly goverment. IMHO, we here are the Bridegrooms campanions or guests to the wedding .

So LV i am sure you will be there.
love stayawke

[Shibboleth]

Hi All-

Just thought I would throw a little something in to make things more confusing than they already are. Chapter 9 of Revelation refers to Abaddon (Apollyon, in Greek) who was a star fallen from heaven to the earth, and the key of the abyss was given to him. He openned the pit of the abyss and locusts came out with crowns like gold, and the faces like men but hair like women. This has been attributed to the annointed - as men, but as virgins. They were given authority to hurt men for 5 months. I believe Watchmen has referred to these as the chosen when they do their final witness work.

We are already seeing the wars and reports of wars, but presumably there will be an all out war which we may refer to WWIII. This will be cut short on account of the chosen. Perhaps this is when the locusts (annointed) proceed to witness all out to the world for people to get out of Babylon the Great.

The Insight book indicates that Abaddon or Apollyon refers to Christ. The locust refers to the chosen as they do their final witness work.

If the 3 1/2 years is cut shortso that the locusts can prophesy for 5 months, it would mean that the warring would last a little over 3 years before the locust arrive for months, then Babylon the Great would be destroyed, and then Armageddon.

Just a few thoughts. What do you all think?

Molly[/b]


Molly I have done alot research on this subject and I wrote a thread concerning this in the old DB and here. Here is the link if you want to read my views on the matter.

Christ is he Abaddon/Apollyon? (http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=72)

[stayawake]

Dear Steadfast, IMHO the seven years of Nebuchadezar was literal
.A real seven years.
The babylonians were historicly known to Boast and write about any and every achhievement or victory.
They were also known to Never ever keep records of defeats ,or any weaknesses.
History does show that around the period of time that the king had gone insane according to scripture
there are seven years in a row in history where not a word was recorded in reference to King Nebuchadezar.
Imho that alone says a lot
love stayawake

[Jeshurun]

Interesting....So does this mean that most christians....those who really want God's kingdom, will be killed off or thrown into a concentration camp? Thats the way that im seeing this. Also is it possable that there will be a mass conversion FROM christianity TO the worship of the beast due to fear of death? In all honnesty I dont see myself serviving the GT. I think this is a situation that Jehovah will allow me to suffer to see where my heart really stands due to the fact that I've been struggling to make a definitive one. Then should I prove faithful till death He'll bring me back in the RR.[/b]

Dear LV! The Bible says that suchlike ones as you are the very nearest and dearest to Jehovah. Remember what Jesus said about the sparrows.

Don't think for a minute that Jehovah doesn't have intentions of providing his biggest and most glorious miracle EVER to save his people at Armageddon. If you read the Bible, Armageddon will be his most shining moment yet. Think about the Red Sea, and how often Jehovah keeps reminding us of it in his Word. All you have to do is be strong and keep thinking about how proud Jehovah will be of you when all you have to do its not give in to men, and as others have said here, even if we die, we would only live a few more miserable months anyway, knowing we betrayed Jehovah and gave in to Satan, so we have NOTHING TO LOSE! The reward is Jehovah's NEW WORLD ORDER! where we can please him forever and not have to worry about any opposition at all! Well maybe some tough times after the resurrection but NOTHING compared to this.

So glad to have you here dear brother, BOTH OF YOU!

Agape
Lou

[Eli's Foe]

Shibboleth said "Molly I have done alot research on this subject and I wrote a thread concerning this in the old DB and here. Here is the link if you want to read my views on the matter."

But as you know Shibboleth, your theory does not agree with either the WTS or Watchman.

EF

[Steadfast]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

It is important to try and discern scripturally, just when the call to get out of Babylon the Great occurs. If some mistakenly think that the tribulation is really 7 years long instead of 3-1/2 and do not respond, what will happen to them? They will now make themselves part of the destruction of Babylon the Great - Revelation 18.

My position on the length of the tribulation is that it is 3-1/2 years long. I haven't seen anything in the scriptures to come to a 7 year tribulation conclusion. The reason for this is because of the following scriptures, which I have posted before:

Daniel 8:13-14 – And I got to hear a certain holy one's speaking, and another holy one proceeded to say to the particular one who was speaking: 'How long will the vision of the constant [feature] and of the transgression causing desolation to make both [the] holy place and [the] army things to trample on?' So he said to me: 'Until two thousand three hundred evenings [and] mornings, and [the] holy place will certainly be brought into right condition.'

My comment: This timeframe could be looked at to mean 1,150 days complete days by dividing in two. The Jewish calendar always included evening and morning as the completion of one full day. Divide 1,150 days by 3=almost 3-1/2 years.

Time, Times, Half a Time

Daniel 7:25 – And he will speak even words against the Most High, and he will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One. And he will intend to change times and law, and they (holy ones) will be given into his hand for a time and times and half a time.

Daniel 12:7 – And I began to hear the man clothed with the linen, who was above the waters of the stream, as he proceeded to raise his right [hand] and his left [hand] to the heavens and to swear by the One who is alive for time indefinite: ' It will be for an appointed time, appointed times and a half. As soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish.'

Revelation 12:14 – But the two wings of the great eagle were given the woman, that she might fly to the wilderness to her place; there is where she is fed for a time and times and half a time.

My comment: Scripturally, a time amounts to one year of 360 days, so the timeframe mentioned here would amount to 3-1/2 years.

Forty-Two Months

Revelation 11:2 – But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary], cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.

Revelation 13:5 – And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it, and authority to act forty-two months was given it.

My comment: Forty-two months = 3-1/2 years.

1,260 Days

Revelation 11:3 – And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth.

Revelation 12:6 – And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days.

My comment: Here again, 1,260 days = 3-1/2 years.

1,290 Days

Daniel 12:11 – And from the time that the constant [feature] has been removed and there has been a placing of the disgusting thing that is causing desolation, there will be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

My comment: This timeframe is a little over the 3-1/2 years.

1,335 Days

Daniel 12:12 – Happy and holy is the one who is keeping in expectation and who arrives at the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

My comment: Again, this timeframe is slightly over 3-1/2 years.

If you put these timeframes in context, you will see that the beast of Revelation 13 rules for 3-1/2 years, the preaching of the 2 witnesses is 3-1/2 years, the trampling of Jerusalem is 3-1/2 years, and the holy ones are harassed for 3-1/2 years and finally killed.

As always, comments and criticisms are welcome. :)

Love, :Love:

Steadfast

[Dorcas]

:Love: Dear Steadfast,
The brother who studied with us always said the great tribulation couldn't last more than 6 months. I figured I could handle that!
I will print out your post and meditate upon it...
I'm still working on the 10 virgins; ran into your "Bride of Christ". It will be a great addition to our wedding research. All friends are welcome to contribute under "Invitation".
In the meantime, love to you...Dorcas :MSN Vlinder:

[Elihu]

Hi Steadfast,

thank you for your insight into this very important period of time, i think i am correct in that you believe that the GT will have a duration of 3 1/2 years.
i recognise the 3 1/2 year period which is repeated in various time arrangements, but i am unsure of the application of failing to flee babylon the great, because of believing that the GT is a seven year period.
not sure if i am reading you correctly.

please clarify for me what you believe, and what you think will be the trigger that alerts everyone to flee BTG.

apologies for my lack of understanding

Elihu

[Eli's Foe]

Steadfast,

I am with you on the GT lasting 3 1/2 years but I cant quite see the two witnesses prophesying literally from the start of that time ie on day one. If they start therefore sometime into the GT, we get an overlap in time. What is more, there must be a period of time after the cutting short of that time (ie after 3 1/2 years) and the start of armageddon. We are therefore dont know exactly how long it will be from day one of the GT to the end of armageddon, do we? Or am I missing something?

EF

[Steadfast]

Dear Brother Elihu,

Thanks for your questions.

All that I am saying is that if there are those who believe the trib is 7 years long instead of 3-1/2, the call to get out of Babylon could be missed because people might think it's a false call.

The great trib is going to be a time of complete chaos, which is exactly why Jesus said we should keep on the watch. There will also be many false christs and false prophets roaming around making many claims. At this point, I'm not even sure how many will recognize the true anointed brothers of Christ until Jesus comes to claim his bride, and they are revealed at the first resurrection.

The New World Order will have some fantastic displays of technology during the tribulation which will also confuse things, i.e. holographic images that might simulate many things from scripture, voices seemingly coming from heaven, etc., all intended to deceive and confuse.

We really need to ground ourselves in truth from scripture now, which is why I wanted to see more proof from the scriptures that there could be a seven-year tribulation.

Sorry my explanation seemed to be vague, maybe it still is. :D

Love, :Love:

Steadfast

[Steadfast]

Dear Eli's Foe,

The holy spirit will be the motivating factor. When Jesus and Jah say start, the two witnesses start. How much time would it take the holy spirit to motivate you? :)

Love, :Love:

Steadfast

[Jeshurun]

Dear brothers and sisters,



This post is not a finished product, but this issue of how long the Great Tribulation will last is quite a compelling one, and as brother Steadfast has asked for more scriptural basis, I thought I would throw this into the mix:


I have presented what I feel is compelling food for thought that the 7 times of Daniel, which in my opinion must mean seven literal years, for the reason being that a "time" in the Bible consistently refers to a period of 360 days, and that Nebuchadnezzar was given the "heart of a beast" for these seven times. I feel that we have also established a solid connection between the "King of Fierce Countenance", the 666 beast of Revelation, and Nebuchadnezzar himself.

</span>"And the city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by the flood. And until [the] end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations.

²⁷ "And he must keep [the] covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease.



"And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate."



In my mind there is no doubt that these verses have a major fulfillment during the time of the end. So let&#39;s start with the "covenant".



Ezekiel the 16^th chapter says the following regarding Jehovah&#39;s modern day people:



⁸ "&#39;And I came passing along by you and got to see you, and, look! your time was the time for love&#39;s expressions. So I proceeded to spread my skirt over you and to cover your nudeness and to make a sworn statement to you and enter into a covenant with you,&#39; is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, &#39;and so you became mine.



But what happened to this covenant? We all know what the Watchtower has done to violate this covenant, so there is no need to go into those details here. But what would Jehovah do about this broken covenant? The same chapter goes on to explain:



⁵⁹ "For this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, &#39;I also must do with you just as you have done, because you despised the oath in breaking [my] covenant. ⁶⁰ And I, I myself, must remember my covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I must establish for you an indefinitely lasting covenant. ⁶¹ And you will certainly remember your ways and feel humiliated when you receive your sisters, the ones older than you as well as the ones younger than you, and I shall certainly give them to you as daughters, but not owing to your covenant.&#39;

⁶² "&#39;And I, I myself, will establish my covenant with you; and you will have to know that I am Jehovah, ⁶³ in order that you may remember and actually be ashamed and you may no more come to have any reason to open [your] mouth because of your humiliation, when I make an atonement for you for all that you have done,&#39; is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah."





This is where the arrival and Presence of Christ comes in. He inspects his Temple and throws out the evil slave. At this time we refer the Matthew chapter 24. The sequence of events in this vital prophecy are extremely important to consider. The Watchtower has gotten us into the bad habit of haphazardly applying the events of this chapter to different times, changing the sequence of events that Jesus described.



⁴ And in answer Jesus said to them: "Look out that nobody misleads YOU; ⁵ for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, &#39;I am the Christ,&#39; and will mislead many. ⁶ YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet.



Having 20/20 hindsight, this would seem to be a warning against falling for the 1914 doctrine, but we did and we can&#39;t change that now, although we have thankfully been enlightened to it&#39;s falsity. But we are now living at a time when there has been relative peace on the earth for a prolonged period. When World War III breaks out, we will see the fulfillment of this:



⁷ "For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. ⁸ All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.



I&#39;m beginning to think that World War III will not even yet be the Great Tribulation, why? Because in all likelihood it will require this war to establish the New World Order, and as I have said in another post, it will not be a long drawn-out war like the first two, it will be relatively quick as it will involve nuclear weapons. This will scare the living daylights out of everyone on earth, and when the UN rises out of its ashes and restores some sanity and "decent" living conditions, the world at large will "wonder admiringly at it", as they believed that WWIII would lead to nuclear holocaust. But the Great Tribulation is still not yet! Why? Because the disgusting thing has yet to stand in the holy place! Notice that it is after that event that Jesus says:



²¹ for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world&#39;s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. ²² In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.



Getting back to Daniel 9:27, after having established the covenant at his arrival, at the half of the week, or 3 ½ years later, he would "cause gift offering and sacrifice to cease". This would mean desolation of the holy place, the end of the Watchtower. Notice how this lines up with the "disgusting things" and "desolations" beginning at the half of the week!



I will finish these thoughts sometime over the weekend as my wife will kill me if I don&#39;t spend some time with her, but in the meantime I&#39;d love to hear your thoughts on what I have compiled so far.



Agape

Lou

[Kenneth]

Just had this really eerie thought. What if the GT starts this year and its length are seven years. What year will Armageddon come in? I will leave the calculation to you.



Jumping jeepers</span> :ban_dance01: :ban_dance01: :ban_dance01:

</span>

[Sketch]

Just had this really eerie thought. What if the GT starts this year and its length are seven years. What year will Armageddon come in? I will leave the calculation to you. </span></span>[/b]

I mean, really - whats a hundred years between friends? really?

[Steadfast]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

Not to confuse everyone completely, the 70th week of Daniel 9 has been used by many in Christendom to support a 7 year tribulation as an explanation for it.

I have always thought that Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses had the correct explanation, and so I present it here from the Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2, pp. 899-902 for you to consider. It explains it far better than I could.

SEVENTY WEEKS

A prophetic time period referred to at Daniel 9:24-27 during which Jerusalem would be rebuilt and Messiah would appear and then be cut off; following that period the city as well as the holy place would be made desolate.

In the first year of Darius "the son of Ahasuerus of the seed of the Medes," the prophet Daniel discerned from the prophecy of Jeremiah that the time for the release of the Jews from Babylon and their return to Jerusalem was near. Daniel then diligently sought Jehovah in prayer, in harmony with Jeremiah&#39;s words: "&#39;And you will certainly call me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. And you will actually seek me and find me, for you will search for me with all your heart. And I will let myself be found by you,&#39; is the utterance of Jehovah. . . . &#39;And I will bring you back to the place from which I caused you to go into exile.&#39;"—Jer 29:10-14; Da 9:1-4.

While Daniel was praying, Jehovah sent his angel Gabriel with a prophecy that nearly all Bible commentators accept as Messianic, though there are many variations in their understanding of it. Gabriel said:

"There are seventy weeks that have been determined upon your people and upon your holy city, in order to terminate the transgression, and to finish off sin, and to make atonement for error, and to bring in righteousness for times indefinite, and to imprint a seal upon vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies. And you should know and have the insight that from the going forth of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Leader, there will be seven weeks, also sixty-two weeks. She will return and be actually rebuilt, with a public square and moat, but in the straits of the times.


And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah will be cut off, with nothing for himself. And the city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by the flood. And until the end there will be war; what is decided upon is desolations. And he must keep the covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease. And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate."—Daniel 9:24-27.

A Messianic Prophecy. It is quite evident that this prophecy is a "jewel" in the matter of identifying the Messiah. It is of the utmost importance to determine the time of the beginning of the 70 weeks, as well as their length. If these were literal weeks of seven days each, either the prophecy failed to be fulfilled, which is an impossibility (Isa 55:10, 11; Heb 6:18), or else the Messiah came more than 24 centuries ago, in the days of the Persian Empire, and was not identified. In the latter case, the other scores of qualifications specified in the Bible for the Messiah were not met or fulfilled. So it is evident that the 70 weeks were symbolic of a much longer time. Certainly the events described in the prophecy were of such a nature that they could not have occurred in a literal 70 weeks, or a little more than a year and four months. The majority of Bible scholars agree that the "weeks" of the prophecy are weeks of years. Some translations read "seventy weeks of years" (AT, Mo, RS); the Tanakh, a new Bible translation published in 1985 by the Jewish Publication Society, also includes this rendering in a footnote.—See Da 9:24, ftn.

When did the prophetic "seventy weeks" actually begin?

As to the beginning of the 70 weeks, Nehemiah was granted permission by King Artaxerxes of Persia, in the 20th year of his rule, in the month of Nisan, to rebuild the wall and the city of Jerusalem. (Ne 2:1, 5, 7, 8) In his calculations as to the reign of Artaxerxes, Nehemiah apparently used a calendar year that began with the month Tishri (September-October), as does the Jews&#39; present civil calendar, and ended with the month Elul (August-September) as the 12th month. Whether this was his own reckoning or the manner of reckoning employed for certain purposes in Persia is not known.

Some may object to the above statement and may point to Nehemiah 7:73, where Nehemiah speaks of Israel as being gathered in their cities in the seventh month—the monthly order here being based on a Nisan-to-Nisan year. But Nehemiah was here copying from "the book of genealogical enrollment of those who came up at the first" with Zerubbabel, in 537 B.C.E. (Ne 7:5) Again, Nehemiah describes the celebration of the Festival of Booths in his time as taking place in the seventh month. (Ne 8:9, 13-18) This was only fitting because the account says that they found what Jehovah commanded "written in the law," and in that law, at Leviticus 23:39-43, it says that the Festival of Booths was to be in "the seventh month" (that is, of the sacred calendar, running from Nisan to Nisan).

However, as evidence indicating that Nehemiah may have used a fall-to-fall year in referring to certain events, we can compare Nehemiah 1:1-3 with 2:1-8. In the first passage he tells of receiving the bad news about Jerusalem&#39;s condition, in Chislev (third month in the civil calendar and ninth in the sacred calendar) in Artaxerxes&#39; 20th year. In the second, he presents his request to the king that he be permitted to go and rebuild Jerusalem, and he is granted permission in the month Nisan (seventh in the civil calendar and first in the sacred), but still in the 20th year of Artaxerxes. So Nehemiah was obviously not counting the years of Artaxerxes&#39; reign on a Nisan-to-Nisan basis.

To establish the time for the 20th year of Artaxerxes, we go back to the end of the reign of his father and predecessor Xerxes, who died in the latter part of 475 B.C.E. Artaxerxes&#39; accession year thus began in 475 B.C.E., and his first regnal year would be counted from 474 B.C.E., as other historical evidence indicates. The 20th year of Artaxerxes&#39; rule would accordingly be 455 B.C.E.—See PERSIA, PERSIANS (The Reigns of Xerxes and of Artaxerxes).

"The Going Forth of the Word." The prophecy says there would be 69 weeks of years "from the going forth of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Leader." (Da 9:25) Secular history, along with the Bible, gives evidence that Jesus came to John and was baptized, thereby becoming the Anointed One, Messiah the Leader, in the early autumn of the year 29 C.E. (See JESUS CHRIST [Time of Birth, Length of Ministry].) Calculating back from this vantage point in history, we can determine that the 69 weeks of years began in 455 B.C.E. In that year the significant "going forth of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem" took place.

In Nisan (March-April) of the 20th year of Artaxerxes&#39; rule (455 B.C.E.), Nehemiah petitioned the king: "If your servant seems good before you, . . . send me to Judah, to the city of the burial places of my forefathers, that I may rebuild it." (Ne 2:1, 5) The king granted permission, and Nehemiah made the long journey from Shushan to Jerusalem. On about the fourth of Ab (July-August), after making a night inspection of the walls, Nehemiah gave the command to the Jews: "Come and let us rebuild the wall of Jerusalem, that we may no longer continue to be a reproach." (Ne 2:11-18) Thus, "the going forth of the word" to rebuild Jerusalem, as authorized by Artaxerxes, was put into effect by Nehemiah in Jerusalem that same year. This clearly establishes 455 B.C.E. as the year from which the 70 weeks would begin to count.

The repair work on the walls was completed on the 25th day of Elul (August-September), in just 52 days. (Ne 6:15) After the rebuilding of the walls, the repairing of the rest of Jerusalem went forward. As to the first seven "weeks" (49 years), Nehemiah, with the help of Ezra and, afterward, others who may have succeeded them, worked, "in the straits of the times," with difficulty from within, among the Jews themselves, and from without, on the part of the Samaritans and others. (Da 9:25) The book of Malachi, written after 443 B.C.E., decries the bad state into which the Jewish priesthood had by then fallen. Nehemiah&#39;s return to Jerusalem following a visit to Artaxerxes (compare Ne 5:14; 13:6, 7) is thought to have taken place after this. Just how long after 455 B.C.E. he personally continued his efforts in building Jerusalem, the Bible does not reveal. However, the work was evidently completed within 49 years (seven weeks of years) to the extent necessary, and Jerusalem and its temple remained for the Messiah&#39;s coming.—See MALACHI, BOOK OF (Time of Composition).

Messiah&#39;s Arrival After &#39;Sixty-Nine Weeks.&#39; As to the following "sixty-two weeks" (Da 9:25), these, being part of the 70 and named second in order, would continue from the conclusion of the "seven weeks." Therefore, the time "from the going forth of the word" to rebuild Jerusalem until "Messiah the Leader" would be 7 plus 62 "weeks," or 69 "weeks"—483 years—from the year 455 B.C.E. to 29 C.E. As mentioned above, in the autumn of that year, 29 C.E., Jesus was baptized in water, was anointed with holy spirit, and began his ministry as "Messiah the Leader."—Lu 3:1, 2, 21, 22.

Thus, centuries in advance Daniel&#39;s prophecy pinpointed the exact year of the Messiah&#39;s arrival. Perhaps the Jews in the first century C.E. had made calculations on the basis of Daniel&#39;s prophecy and were therefore on the alert for Messiah&#39;s appearance. The Bible reports: "Now as the people were in expectation and all were reasoning in their hearts about John: &#39;May he perhaps be the Christ?&#39;" (Lu 3:15) Although they were expecting the Messiah, they evidently could not pinpoint the exact month, week, or day of his arrival. Therefore, they wondered whether John was the Christ, even though John evidently began his ministry in the spring of 29 C.E., about six months before Jesus presented himself for baptism.

"Cut off" at the half of the week. Gabriel further said to Daniel: "After the sixty-two weeks Messiah will be cut off, with nothing for himself." (Da 9:26) It was sometime after the end of the &#39;seven plus sixty-two weeks,&#39; actually about three and a half years afterward, that Christ was cut off in death on a torture stake, giving up all that he had, as a ransom for mankind. (Isa 53:8) Evidence indicates that the first half of the "week" was spent by Jesus in the ministry. On one occasion, likely in the fall of 32 C.E., he gave an illustration, apparently speaking of the Jewish nation as a fig tree (compare Mt 17:15-20; 21:18, 19, 43) that had borne no fruit for "three years." The vinedresser said to the owner of the vineyard: "Master, let it alone also this year, until I dig around it and put on manure; and if then it produces fruit in the future, well and good; but if not, you shall cut it down." (Lu 13:6-9) He may have referred here to the time period of his own ministry to that unresponsive nation, which ministry had continued at that point for about three years and was to continue into a fourth year.

Covenant in force "for one week." Daniel 9:27 states: "And he must keep the covenant in force for the many for one week [or seven years]; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease." The "covenant" could not be the Law covenant, for Christ&#39;s sacrifice, three and a half years after the 70th "week" began, resulted in its removal by God: "He has taken it [the Law] out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake." (Col 2:14) Also, "Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law . . . The purpose was that the blessing of Abraham might come to be by means of Jesus Christ for the nations." (Ga 3:13, 14) God, through Christ, did extend the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant to the natural offspring of Abraham, excluding the Gentiles until the gospel was taken to them through Peter&#39;s preaching to the Italian Cornelius. (Ac 3:25, 26; 10:1-48) This conversion of Cornelius and his household occurred after the conversion of Saul of Tarsus, which is generally considered to have taken place in about 34 C.E.; after this the congregation enjoyed a period of peace, being built up. (Ac 9:1-16, 31) It appears, then, that the bringing of Cornelius into the Christian congregation took place about the autumn of 36 C.E., which would be the end of the 70th "week," 490 years from 455 B.C.E.

Sacrifices and offerings &#39;caused to cease.&#39; The expression &#39;cause to cease,&#39; used with reference to sacrifice and gift offering, means, literally, "cause or make to sabbath, to rest, to desist from working." The "sacrifice and gift offering" that are &#39;caused to cease,&#39; according to Daniel 9:27, could not be Jesus&#39; ransom sacrifice, nor would they logically be any spiritual sacrifice by his footstep followers. They must refer to the sacrifices and gift offerings that were offered by the Jews at the temple in Jerusalem according to Moses&#39; Law.

"The half of the week" would be at the middle of seven years, or after three and a half years within that "week" of years. Since the 70th "week" began about the fall of 29 C.E. at Jesus&#39; baptism and anointing to be Christ, half of that week (three and a half years) would extend to the spring of 33 C.E., or Passover time (Nisan 14) of that year. This day appears to have been April 1, 33 C.E., according to the Gregorian calendar. The apostle Paul tells us that Jesus &#39;came to do the will of God,&#39; which was to &#39;do away with what is first [the sacrifices and offerings according to the Law] that he may establish what is second.&#39; This he did by offering as a sacrifice his own body.—Heb 10:1-10.

Although the Jewish priests continued to offer sacrifices at the temple in Jerusalem until its destruction in 70 C.E., the sacrifices for sin ceased having acceptance and validity with God. Just before Jesus&#39; death he said to Jerusalem: "Your house is abandoned to you." (Mt 23:38) Christ "offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually . . . For it is by one sacrificial offering that he has made those who are being sanctified perfect perpetually." "Now where there is forgiveness [of sins and lawless deeds], there is no longer an offering for sin." (Heb 10:12-14, 18) The apostle Paul points out that Jeremiah&#39;s prophecy spoke of a new covenant, the former covenant (Law covenant) being thereby made obsolete and growing old, "near to vanishing away."—Heb 8:7-13.

Transgression and sin terminated. Jesus&#39; being cut off in death, his resurrection, and his appearance in heaven resulted in &#39;terminating transgression and finishing off sin as well as in making atonement for error.&#39; (Da 9:24) The Law covenant had exposed the Jews as sinners, condemned them as such, and brought upon them the curse as covenant breakers. But where sin "abounded" as exposed or made evident by the Mosaic Law, God&#39;s mercy and favor abounded much more through his Messiah. (Ro 5:20) By Messiah&#39;s sacrifice, transgression and sin of the repentant sinners can be canceled and the penalty thereof be lifted.

Everlasting righteousness brought in. The value of Christ&#39;s death on the stake provided a reconciliation for repentant believers. A propitiatory covering was drawn over their sins, and the way was opened for their being "declared righteous" by God. Such righteousness will be everlasting and will procure everlasting life for the ones declared righteous.—Ro 3:21-25.

Anointing the Holy of Holies. Jesus was anointed with holy spirit at the time of baptism, the holy spirit coming down on him visibly represented in the form of a dove. But the anointing of "the Holy of Holies" refers to more than the anointing of the Messiah, because this expression does not refer to an individual person. "The Holy of Holies" or "the Most Holy" is the expression used to refer to the true sanctuary of Jehovah God. (Da 9:24; Ex 26:33, 34; 1Ki 6:16; 7:50) Therefore, the anointing of "the Holy of Holies" mentioned in the book of Daniel must relate to "the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands," into which Jesus Christ as the great High Priest entered "with his own blood." (Heb 9:11, 12) When Jesus presented the value of his human sacrifice to his Father, heaven itself had the appearance of the spiritual reality represented by the Most Holy of the tabernacle and of the later temple. So God&#39;s heavenly abode had indeed been anointed, or set apart, as "the Holy of Holies" in the great spiritual temple arrangement that came into being at the time of Jesus&#39; being anointed with holy spirit in 29 C.E.—Mt 3:16; Lu 4:18-21; Ac 10:37, 38; Heb 9:24.

&#39;Imprinting a seal upon vision and prophet.&#39; All this work accomplished by the Messiah—his sacrifice, his resurrection, his appearance with the value of his sacrifice before the heavenly Father, and the other things occurring during the 70th week—&#39;imprints a seal upon vision and prophet,&#39; showing these to be true and from God. It stamps them with the seal of divine backing, as being from one divine source and not from erring man. It seals up the vision as being restricted to Messiah because it finds its fulfillment in him and God&#39;s work through him. (Re 19:10) Its interpretation is found in him, and we cannot look to anyone else for its fulfillment. Nothing else will unseal its meaning.—Da 9:24.

Desolations to the city and the holy place. It was after the 70 "weeks," but as a direct result of the Jews&#39; rejection of Christ during the 70th "week," that the events of the latter parts of Daniel 9:26 and 27 were fulfilled. History records that Titus the son of Emperor Vespasian of Rome was the leader of the Roman forces that came against Jerusalem. These armies actually entered into Jerusalem and the temple itself, like a flood, and desolated the city and its temple. This standing of pagan armies in the holy place made them a "disgusting thing." (Mt 24:15) All efforts made prior to Jerusalem&#39;s end to quiet the situation failed because God&#39;s decree was: "What is decided upon is desolations," and "until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate."

End of quote.

So, other than the misapplication of the 70th week of Daniel, I see no other explanation for a 7-year tribulation except by torturing the scriptures.

Please feel free to comment or correct what has been said here, as I always look forward to your comments.

Love, :Love:

Steadfast

[eyes&ears]

Just had this really eerie thought. What if the GT starts this year and its length are seven years. What year will Armageddon come in? I will leave the calculation to you.



Jumping jeepers</span> :ban_dance01: :ban_dance01: :ban_dance01:

</span>[/b]

DON&#39;T EVEN GO THERE KENNETH!! :icon_rolleyes: :185:

E & E

[Jeshurun]

Thank you, Steadfast. I&#39;m just puzzled at to why that particular prophecy would use such strong language so similar, if not the same, as the other prophecies in Daniel, and in Matthew 24. And another thing I am puzzled by is this:



"And upon the wing of disgusting things there will be the one causing desolation; and until an extermination, the very thing decided upon will go pouring out also upon the one lying desolate.



The words translated "upon the one lying desolate" are a little unclear in the NWT, so I consulted a few other versions, and most are in concurrence that "the one lying desolate" actually refers to the one who has done the desolating, so the "thing decided upon" refers to Jehovah&#39;s judgment to destroy this desolator, to turn his own desolations upon himself. I&#39;m wondering how that applies to the Roman armies. Could "upon the one lying desolate" be better translated as "laying desolate"? That would change the whole meaning.



The New Living Bible says: "So how can we determine which is the proper translation? I tend to go with the one that makes sense, but maybe I&#39;m missing something.

Love to you all
Lou</span>

[Steadfast]

Dear Brother Jeshurun,

Take your pick, lol. Personally, I like the Lamsa. :188:

Daniel 9:27b

(Lamsa) …and upon the horns of the altar the abomination of desolation shall continue until the end of the appointed time; the city shall remain desolate.

(ASV) …and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.

(BBE) …and in its place will be an unclean thing causing fear; till the destruction which has been fixed is let loose on him who has made waste.

(DRB) …and there shall be in the temple the abomination of desolation: and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end.

(ESV And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

(JPS) …and upon the wing of detestable things shall be that which causeth appalment; and that until the extermination wholly determined be poured out upon that which causeth appalment.&#39;

(KJV+) …and for⁵⁹²¹ the overspreading³⁶⁷¹ of abominations⁸²⁵¹ he shall make it desolate,⁸⁰⁷⁴ even until⁵⁷⁰⁴ the consummation,³⁶¹⁷ and that determined²⁷⁸² shall be poured⁵⁴¹³ upon⁵⁹²¹ the desolate.⁸⁰⁷⁶

(LITV) And on a corner of the altar will be abominations that desolate, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall pour out on the desolator.

(MKJV) …and on a corner of the altar desolating abominations, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall be poured on the desolator.

(YLT) …and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.&#39;

Love, :Love:

Steadfast

[Jeshurun]

Half of those translations contradict the other half! What&#39;s going on here? I&#39;m gonna have to consult a Hebrew lexicon. I understand that the 69 weeks doesn&#39;t seem to have a modern day fulfillment, but neither does fleeing Jerusalem on the Sabbath! I&#39;m not ready to bury this one just yet. More forthcoming, once my brain gets unscrambled!

[Steadfast]

Dear Brother Jeshurun,

From the Hebrew Tanakh (According to the traditional Hebrew text):

Daniel 9:27 - &#39;During one week he will make a firm covenant with many. For half a week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the meal offering. At the corner (of the altar) will be an appalling abomination until the decreed destruction will be poured down upon the appalling thing.&#39;

Love, :Love:

Steadfast

[Kenneth]

<div class='quotemain'><span style="font-family:Verdana">Just had this really eerie thought. What if the GT starts this year and its length are seven years. What year will Armageddon come in? I will leave the calculation to you.



Jumping jeepers :ban_dance01: :ban_dance01: :ban_dance01:

</span>[/b]

DON&#39;T EVEN GO THERE KENNETH!! :icon_rolleyes: :185:

E & E
[/b][/quote]

E&E


It was just a thought</span> :wave: </span>

[eyes&ears]

<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'><span style="font-family:Verdana">Just had this really eerie thought. What if the GT starts this year and its length are seven years. What year will Armageddon come in? I will leave the calculation to you.



Jumping jeepers :ban_dance01: :ban_dance01: :ban_dance01:

</span>[/b]

DON&#39;T EVEN GO THERE KENNETH!! :icon_rolleyes: :185:

E & E
[/b][/quote]

E&E


It was just a thought</span> :wave: </span>
[/b][/quote]


Ummm Hmmmmm OKEY DOKEY THEN :D

[Elihu]

hi everyone
the more i read about this topic the more questions i have
however i think it would be wise for us to establish what we think scripture indicates with regard to the sequence of events and this may help us with the timing.
i think this will be a hard task but it is an esential one.

just my thoughts
Elihu

[DoubtingThomas]

I agree Elihu. See Post #2 in this thread for my rough draft of the sequence of events yet to happen!

[Steadfast]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I think its a great idea to discuss the timeline of events that we might see happening, but it might be a good idea to discuss one event at a time.

So, when the tribulation begins, what might be the first event to take place? It also might be a good idea to use scripture(s) with the timeline event to help us get a perspective on it.

Love, :Love:

Steadfast

[James]

That is a great idea Steadfast,

I think we will see multiple events (from the scriptures) that take place at each stage of the last days and the great tribulation. I&#39;ll be back to add to this thread....

James

[Steadfast]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I think it might be a good idea to start another thread concerning the timeline so that anyone who wants to continue to contribute to this thread can do so. :D I&#39;ll call it the GT Timeline.

Looking forward to everyone&#39;s thoughts and input.

Love, :Love:

Steadfast

[DoubtingThomas]

According to my first grade math teacher: 3 ½ years plus 3 ½ years = 7 years total duration of the great tribulation?</span>