Gt Timeline

[Steadfast]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

On this thread, please feel free to contribute your thoughts and include some scripture/scriptures to support your viewpoint.

Hopefully, I can add to this opening post as we work through the different points.

What is the first event in the timeline to discuss? :190: Don't be shy!

1. ?

2. ?

3. ?

etc.,

Love, :Love:

Steadfast

[DoubtingThomas]

Mathew Chapter 24: 3-8 is a great place to start any timeline discussion of the GT. Jesus was speaking of these events chronologicaly . He starts with a PRELUDE of the actual GT by discussing signs of his Presence and The Conclusion.

These events that he describes in Matthew 24:3-8 happen prior to the outbreak of the GT, and Jesus says that these are a BEGINNING of pangs of distress. We are already seeing some of these signs - false Christ and reports of wars (or possible wars breaking out in the near future).

[Molly]

Hi Steadfast-

Luke 21 words things a little different from Matthew.

In verses 8-11 it refers to the false Messiah's, wars and disorders which "must occur first but the end does not [occur] immediately." Jesus then refers to the nation rising against nation and kingdom against kingdom along with earthquakes, pestilences, food shortages, and fearful sights.

Verse 12 then says, "But before all these things people will lay their hands upon you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, you being haled before kings and governors for the sake of my name. 13-It will turn out to you for a witness. 14-Therefore settle it in you hearts not to rehearse beforehand how to make your defense, 15-for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your opposers together will not be able to resist or dispute. 16-Moreover, you will be dilivered up even by parents and brother and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death; 17-and you will be objects of hatred by all people because of my name. 18-And yet not a hair of your heads will by any means perish. 19-By endurance on you part you acquire your souls."

Although we are definitely seeing conflicts around the world now, it sounds like the persecution of Jehovah's people starts before any of the real heavy duty conflicts start.

Molly

[DoubtingThomas]

[i] </span>This report disturbs the Beast (KON) and this begins a second assault on God&#39;s people. This beast then attacks the 144,000. The Beast conquers them and kills them (Rev. 11:7-10). The four angels are still holding back the four winds of destruction until the final sealing of the anointed is complete. When the sons of God (Christ anointed brothers) are no longer on earth it will appear the last King has now defeated God.

10. ALL 144,000 of the anointed are resurrected "The First Resurrection" (Rev. 14:1-5).

11. The 3 angels are described (Rev. 14:6-13) and the harvest of the earth (Rev. 14:14-20).

12. The angels pour out the 7 plaques and 7 bowls of God&#39;s wrath (Rev. 15 & 16).

13. All must now flee Babylon the Great for this harlot which has been riding the beast will now be destroyed by the beast (Rev. 17 & 18). If you are still in BTG at this time, you will suffer the consequences "plaques". At this point all must receive the 666 mark of the beast or die (Rev. 13:11-18). All will be forced into making this decision to either worship the beast or God. Judgment is based on receiving or not receiving the mark of the beast (Rev. 19:20).

14. Immediately after BTG is destroyed (Rev. 14:8), Jehovah becomes King and the marriage of the Lamb takes place (Rev. 19:1-10).

15. This starts the outbreak of the War of Armageddon (Rev. 19:11-21).

16. The Millenium of 1,000 years of blessings upon mankind begin (Rev. 20 – 22).

[DoubtingThomas]

The light bulb just turned on for me! This is one of those "Now I get it" moments.

Everyone else here probably already understands this, but I am a slow learner. So anyway ...

I just realized this literally a few moments ago, but it is now so obvious for me:

Both Matthew and Luke recorded words of Jesus that are similiar to a Readers Digest Condensed Version of the Revelation given to John and Daniels prophecy of events. Jesus did not give as much details to his first century disciples as those other two prophecies of The Last day&#39;s. But he was telling them enough about the upcoming destruction of Jerusalem so that they could flee for safety. But we have much more details with the Revelation given to John that first century Christians did not have. So it is now obvious to me that Matthew and Luke are describing many events that John and Daniel also recorded.

Like I said ... I am a slow learner.

[eyes&ears]

I would agree the first in the timeline to discuss would be Mt 24

- Look out for false prophets/Apostasy

- Wars and associated pangs of distress that accompanies wars

- Jehovah&#39;s people persecuted/stumbled and turning on one another

- THAT DISGUSTING THING/WHEN TO FLEE

I hope this is what you meant Steadfast.

E & E

[Molly]

The Last Days - A Timeline of Events



2. The warning is next given that when Jerusalem is surrounded, the end is near. Then Christians should begin fleeing to the mountains. (Matthew 24:15-21) (Luke 20:24). In both accounts (Matthew and Luke) this is described as the actual beginning of the Great Tribulation. A possible or perhaps even likely parallel exist with this 3 ½ year period of when Jerusalem is surrounded until it was destroyed as the same 3 ½ period in length of the great tribulation in the last days.

3. Jesus is enthroned in the heavens and arrives to inspect the House of God. He finds it lacking and begins His judgment by cleaning it out. The Harvest begins. The separating of the sheep and the goats takes place. The first assault on God&#39;s people by the King of the North (KON) starts at this time. The "Land of Decoration" is invaded. The Watchtower collapses as God&#39;s earthly organization. True worshipers do still exist individually though.

4. War breaks out in heaven and Satan is now ousted to the vicinity of the earth (Rev. 12:7-12). Satan&#39;s "short period of time begins". This begins the death stroke of the 7^th head of the beast and starts the 3 ½ year period of THE GREAT TRIBULATION and intense persecution of the holy ones (based on the two witnesses prophesying for 3 ½ years?). The Dragon makes war with the woman and her offspring (Rev. 12:13-17).[/b]

First Jesus is enthroned in heaven, then war breaks out and Satan is thrown down to the earth (Rev 12:9-12). In his anger after being thrown down, Satan&#39;s first order of business is to try to attack God&#39;s woman and failing to do that he attacks the remaining ones of her seed Rev 12:17). From our vantage point that is when Jerusalem would be surrounded by encamped armies (Luke 21:20) It is at that point that the Great Tribulation begins.

This results in some deaths but most do not die. Some are hailed before kings as a witness. This may be when the evil slave is removed, leaving the rest of the annointed for a 3 1/2 year period of punishment and then after some period, things are cut short, to allow for the preaching.

This primarily affects the annointed but the rest of the sheep would be under attack from people turning in children, parents, etc. who are suspected of being JWs. I guess this is when we head for the hills - not literally - but hide out, or get taken to concentration camps. Jehovah&#39;s Witesses will be thrown into confusion at this time because their FDS and their "form of godly devotion" which proves "false to its power" and we are told "from these turn away." Time for the rest of us to help them out as they wander in confusion.

Simultaneously, the political environment is progressing towards the NWO during the Great Tribulation. In a time line the political events are progressing while god&#39;s people are under attack.

Molly

[Jeshurun]

The thing we can say for sure is that the 42 months that the beast is given authority comes at the end. I&#39;m finding it hard to understand how the 3 1/2 years where the woman is fed in the wilderness, away from the face of the serpent, can be concurrent with the time that the anointed are being attacked. It would seem to me that she is fed in the wilderness, because she is no longer part of the Watchtower, they have either left the org or been disfellowshipped, or they will do so by the time this period begins. A 3 1/2 year warning period to "flee Jerusalem" would fit perfectly into the second fulfillment, as DT has pointed out the parallel with the Roman armies.

Also, being given authority might relate to Jehovah&#39;s purpose to gather his anointed people, and to carry out it&#39;s ugly agenda. Perhaps it&#39;s existence before being given authority would be when it seems to be a good solution in its beginning phase.

Another thought is, what did Jesus mean when he said "catch sight of" the disgusting thing? This could mean that some might be blind to it, not notice it because of some kind of subtle presence, for instance, the Watchtower giving it&#39;s full endorsement to it in the future, or making some kind of alliance worse than they have already done, and since the NGO thing is already staring Witnesses in the face and they can&#39;t see it, perhaps a stronger alliance in the future will also not wake some people up to it&#39;s significance.

[Molly]

The thing we can say for sure is that the 42 months that the beast is given authority comes at the end. I&#39;m finding it hard to understand how the 3 1/2 years where the woman is fed in the wilderness, away from the face of the serpent, can be concurrent with the time that the anointed are being attacked. It would seem to me that she is fed in the wilderness, because she is no longer part of the Watchtower, they have either left the org or been disfellowshipped, or they will do so by the time this period begins. A 3 1/2 year warning period to "flee Jerusalem" would fit perfectly into the second fulfillment, as DT has pointed out the parallel with the Roman armies.

Also, being given authority might relate to Jehovah&#39;s purpose to gather his anointed people, and to carry out it&#39;s ugly agenda. Perhaps it&#39;s existence before being given authority would be when it seems to be a good solution in its beginning phase.[/b]


Hi Jeshurun-

While I personally prefer to hope that the end is only 3 1/2 years long, I can see the possibilities of the 7 years time frame that you proposed from Daniel. The problem is where do the preceeding 69 years fit into the picture. An additional problem is that Satan only has authority for 42 months from the beginning of his persecution until the annointed are killed.

That&#39;s why the viewpoints and input from everyone on this time is so worthwhile. So many events are really unclear as to their order. Of course, as Daniel was told, they are shut up till the time of the end, so probably we won&#39;t be able to know exactly until the appropriate time for them to be revealed. Still, it doesn&#39;t hurt to try to assemble a general sequence of events.

One problem I see is that of trying to sort things out without separating the timetable of the persecution of God&#39;s people from the timetable of the political events since they are parallel but separate timetables even though some of the events affect each other.

Molly

[Jeshurun]

Hi Jeshurun-

While I personally prefer to hope that the end is only 3 1/2 years long, I can see the possibilities of the 7 years time frame that you proposed from Daniel. The problem is where do the preceeding 69 years fit into the picture. An additional problem is that Satan only has authority for 42 months from the beginning of his persecution until the annointed are killed.[/b]

Hi Molly

Yes, the 69 weeks muddy the picture, but many times in prophecies with 2 fulfillments, not every single statement can be applied to both fulfillments. I used Jesus&#39; statement about fleeing Jerusalem on the Sabbath as an example. Whether or not that might even have a fulfillment remains to be seen, who knows? If there was another fulfillment for the 69 weeks, that would put it&#39;s beginning somewhere in the Reformation period. I wouldn&#39;t even rule that out. But that&#39;s just me, I&#39;m no prophecy expert. But Jesus did say he would reveal things to babes. I think that&#39;s us.

Agape
Lou

[DoubtingThomas]

The warning is given that when Jerusalem is surrounded, the end is near. Jesus intended “Jerusalem” to symbolize Jehovah’s earthly organization. So, from the standpoint of “Jerusalem” symbolizing Jehovah’s earthly organization how are we to understand Jesus’ instructions to flee to safety when the holy place faces desolation? The place to which Christians will flee when the modern holy place is destroyed will be “the secret place of the Most High.” Such a place is a spiritual sanctuary and not a literal place. Likely, entry into Jehovah’s secret refuge at that time will involve recognizing and supporting the then-revealed sons of God. (Matthew 24:15-21) (Luke 20:24). In both accounts (Matthew and Luke) this is described as the actual beginning of the Great Tribulation.

[Jeshurun]

The 69 weeks of Daniel began when Darius the Mede gave out the edict to allow the reconstruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. However, that reconstruction was not permanent, as Jerusalem was destroyed again. What we&#39;re looking for today is perhaps a permanent fulfillment for an edict to rebuild the temple. Keep in mind that this edict came from a worldy ruler. So an edict from during the Reformation shouldn&#39;t be ruled out.

A quick Wickipedia search has uncovered some interesting things. I have always believed that Martin Luther played a vital part in restoring the Holy Scriptures, and that he was most definitely inspired by God. The Reformation movement originally had wonderful intentions. It meant to overthrow Papal doctrines that were unscriptural, such as Purgatory, particular judgment, devotion to Mary, the intercession of the saints, most of the sacraments, and the authority of the Pope. You can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation

Interestingly, this movement came into full gear in 1517. Adding 493 years brings us to 2010. Of course no one knows the day and the hour, and maybe this is a coincidence, but food for thought.

[Steadfast]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

This is your discussion, so I think you should start at a point that interests all of you.

DoubtingThomas said: &#39;Both Matthew and Luke recorded words of Jesus that are similiar to a Readers Digest Condensed Version of the Revelation given to John and Daniels prophecy of events. Jesus did not give as much details to his first century disciples as those other two prophecies of The Last day&#39;s. But he was telling them enough about the upcoming destruction of Jerusalem so that they could flee for safety. But we have much more details with the Revelation given to John that first century Christians did not have. So it is now obvious to me that Matthew and Luke are describing many events that John and Daniel also recorded.&#39;

I think you are spot-on in your understanding here.

I do think that what Jesus said in the opening verses of Matthew 24 concerning the destruction of the literal temple will also apply to the spiritual temple. This spiritual temple will be thrown down and trampled for 42 months.

Love, :Love:

Steadfast

[Jeshurun]

I do think that what Jesus said in the opening verses of Matthew 24 concerning the destruction of the literal temple will also apply to the spiritual temple. This spiritual temple will be thrown down and trampled for 42 months.

Love, :Love:

Steadfast[/b]

Wasn&#39;t it just the courtyard?

[Steadfast]

Dear Brother Jesh,

Good catch! :188: I think you are exactly right. The destruction of the &#39;temple&#39; could only apply to those who were still in the flesh....the courtyard as expanded on in Revelation 11.

Love, :Love:

Steadfast

[Jeshurun]

Dear Brother Jesh,

Good catch! :188: I think you are exactly right. The destruction of the &#39;temple&#39; could only apply to those who were still in the flesh....the courtyard as expanded on in Revelation 11.

Love, :Love:

Steadfast[/b]

:Smilie Clown:

Once Jesus died, the Temple&#39;s inner sanctuary was secured, is the way I understand it. But the Temple is not complete without the courtyard.

Believe me, I&#39;m not looking forward to 7 years of them either. I would like to be wrong in this instance. According to the Revelation, the ground swallows up Satan&#39;s first attack on God&#39;s people, and then the woman is fed in the wilderness. It seems to me that the full assault comes when the 42 months begins. All I know is that I look forward to the day when Jehovah&#39;s words are fulfilled: "He that is touching you is touching my eyeball." I can&#39;t imagine Jehovah&#39;s reaction to that, but it will be a spectacle.

Getting back to the Reformation, there seems to be a huge significance tied to October 31, 1517 when Luther published the 95 theses, which sparked the whole movement. I consider it a major turning point in the history of Christendom. Of course the whole truth would have to gradually come out, and sadly the Reformation was for the most part eventually attacked by the RC Church (Jesuits), and many of the new denominations would revert back to corruption. Similar to the way Jehovah unveiled many truths once again through the IBSA and eventually Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses. This information on the Reformation movement can be read here, it&#39;s very interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/95_Theses

[Berean]

About the Reformation, I wouldn&#39;t give too much significance to it, since although it is largely seen as a religious movement, for many German peasants social and economic factors also played a huge part in their uprising against the Holy Roman Empire. Also, the English Reformation was mostly because of Henry VIII&#39;s whim, and the French revolution was accompanied by much bloodshed. I know that mainstream media like to portray the Reformation as dear old Martin Luther pinning his 95 theses to the church door, but it goes a bit beyond that romanticized image, and the Reformation was as much a political revolt as it was a religious change of course.

[Jeshurun]

About the Reformation, I wouldn&#39;t give too much significance to it, since although it is largely seen as a religious movement, for many German peasants social and economic factors also played a huge part in their uprising against the Holy Roman Empire. Also, the English Reformation was mostly because of Henry VIII&#39;s whim, and the French revolution was accompanied by much bloodshed. I know that mainstream media like to portray the Reformation as dear old Martin Luther pinning his 95 theses to the church door, but it goes a bit beyond that romanticized image, and the Reformation was as much a political revolt as it was a religious change of course.[/b]

True, in this world there&#39;s always politics involved, it&#39;s the nature of the beast, no pun intended. But Papal Rome still considers this as a major blow to the autonomy of the Pope, which the Jesuits have been desperately trying to get back ever since, and it seems they will achieve this, when they get their Antichrist. However this period opened the way for the truth movement to come about, which ultimately enabled the Bible Students to bring long lost truths to light without coming under the direct wrath of the autonomous Pope. It has also enabled countless religious groups to have differing levels of understanding far from the near total darkness of the RC Church. This will go a long way toward saving people once the Luciferian doctrine gets here.

[DoubtingThomas]

Just a quick thought before I have to leave town later today for a week:



Bible prophecy refers to two destructions of God’s organization and people (Jerusalem) in the Last days. The first destruction by the KON is sanctioned by God, and is merited out for the sins of His people (Watchtower). This begins the Great Tribulation.



At some point after this destruction of Jerusalem (the Watchtower organization), the great preaching work and prophesying of the two witnesses of Revelation Chapter 11 begins. These two witnesses carry on their work unharmed by the Beast for 42 months (3 ½ years), until they are finally killed. This is the second attack on God’s people, and this attack on His people is not sanctioned by him. It touches God’s eye ball. It starts the War of Armageddon.



Do the two witnesses begin to prophecy immediately after Jeruslaem is destroyed the first time? That doesn’t make sense. Perhaps they begin to prophecy after a period of time that God has designated for them to be attacked and surrounded by the armies of the Beast.



God’s people must be disciplined for a period of time. After Jeruslaem was first attacked and surrounded by the Romans, it was 3 ½ years before it was finally destroyed. Perhaps God’s people will be disciplined for this 3 ½ year period from when the Watchtower is first attacked, until it is fully destroyed, and then the two witnesses begin to prophecy for 3 ½ years?



According to my first grade math teacher: 3 ½ years plus 3 ½ years = 7 years total duration of the great tribulation?

[Jeshurun]

I just noticed a footnote on the WT CD-rom at Daniel 9:27, regarding "the one lying desolate".

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That would make more sense!

[Molly]

I have been trying to think of ways that the Jerusalem attack could apply.

In the first century fulfillment the Christians had 3 1/2 years to get out of Jerusalem after they were first attacked. Could that possibly be a 31/2 year period for Christians to get out of the WTS before it is attacked? This doesn&#39;t necessarily mean physically out but in a spiritual sense, by becoming aware of the WTS corruption and our asking Jehovah for mercy with regard to any responsiblilty we might have had. For instance, for our part in distributing the magazines on the UN-NGO material. The Ezekial example would be the man with the inkhorn who marked those who were sighing and groaning over the detestable things being done at the temple. Ez. 9:6 says: "Old man, young man and virgin and little child and women you should kill off - to a ruination. But to any man upon whom there is the mark do not go near, and from my sanctuary you should start. So they started with the old men that were before the house." The first century example would require that the this first 3 1/2 time period have an initial threat for the WTS.

After those who are sighing and groaning over the detestable thing being done at the temple are out, then the 3 1/2 year Great Tribulation of 42 months could begin and the WTS would be brought down, which is where the sacrifices would cease. Those remaining of the JWs at the hall would then be caught up in the persecution. I&#39;m thinking about how in Jeremiah&#39;s time he told the people that if they wanted to save their lives they needed to go out to Nebuchaddnezzar&#39;s army, otherwise the ones left in the city would be destroyed.

At some point in the the second 3 1/2 period, the warring would be cut short and the annointed are sealed.

This is the only way I can see how there could be two 3 1/2 year periods. Feel free to rip this scenerio to shreds. I only offer it as a possibility.

Molly

[Jeshurun]

Aside from the period of being fed in the wilderness, compared to the full fledge attack, it also seems that the first great war would establish the NWO, and then it would be a savior to most, and then it manifests its true ugly identity and goes on a final genocidal rampage. I can&#39;t imagine anyone on earth wondering admiringly at it or worshipping it in its final stages, when they have already realized what a horrible mistake they have made in giving their allegiance to this thing. I believe that for the final 42 months the world will be gripped in horror, and even the elite themselves will regret what they have done, as Revelation says "they will wish to die, but death keeps flleing from them". So knowing that they are doomed, Satan drives them to try to take out every last living soul on earth, and then Jehovah cuts the days short. Once again just speculating, as Molly said please feel free to rip this to shreds, we&#39;re all in this together.