Where Does The Kingdom Rule

[Steadfast]

Dear Friends,

I used to accept WT theology as truth until I started looking into the Bible without the WT filter. No longer can I accept that the Kingdom rules invisibly from heaven, and that the 144,000 rule with Christ for a 1000 years from that location. I also disagree with how that resurrection takes place.

Jesus and Paul gave some very telling information about the sequencing of events.

Jesus said:

Matthew 24:29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days….

Mattthew 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Paul then fills in the details about it:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 – For this is what we tell you by the Lord's word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep* [in death]; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Afterward, we the living who are surviving will together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Paul seems to be saying that the entire group joins Jesus in the air and proceeds to the marriage of the Lamb. They aren't resurrected as they die, as WT teaches, but the bridal resurrection takes place as the entire group, not one at a time.

Paul further confirms what Jesus already told us in Matthew 24 about the timing of this event:

1 Corinthians 15:52 – in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This begs the question as to when the last trumpet is:

Revelation 10:7 – but in the days of the sounding of the seventh trumpet, when he is about to blow his trumpet, the sacred secret of God according to the good news which he declared to his own slaves the prophets is indeed brought to a finish.

The sounding of the seventh trumpet is just before Armageddon commences.

So does the bride really rule from heaven?

2Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work and will preserve me for His heavenly kingdom, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

Hebrews 3:1 Therefore, holy brothers, called to be partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus.

Heb 12:22-23 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.

Sounds like they might until we look here:

Revelation 5:9-10 And they sang a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the book and to open its seals, for You were slain and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation. And You made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign on the earth.

(There is no doubt that this verse is a hot-button for discussion and debate. :185: )

Jesus said:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would fight so that I might not be delivered to the Jews. But now My kingdom is not from here. (or as the NWT translates it: 'My kingdom is not from this source.')

Paul then says:

Galatians 4:26 But the Jerusalem from above is free, who is the mother of us.

Then finally in Revelation, we have a beautiful description of New Jerusalem (Jerusalem above) descending from heaven to the earth:

Revelation 21:2 And I, John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tent of God with men, and he will dwell with them and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them [and be] their God.

[i]This beautiful city becomes the source of the renewal of everlasting life on this earth:

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple in her for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb is her temple.

Revelation 21:24 And the nations that are healed will walk by her light and the kings of the earth will bring their glory and honor to her.

Revelation 22:1-2 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of her square, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life producing twelve fruits, yielding its fruit every month, and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

(Question: Was the original tree of life in heaven or on earth?)

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

What will a king/priest do in heaven for 1000 years? I've been pondering this for sometime.

Under the Law, the priests were responsible to care for temple duties and instructing the people. I believe they might have similar duties in the Kingdom. IMO, we will have kings/priests who rule with Christ on earth for 1000 years, and they will act as instructors in literal New Jerusalem. These will also have personal involvement as literal kings in helping to restore this earth to a beautiful paradise…just as was purposed in the Garden of Eden.

So while the Kingdom is sourced in heaven and the marriage may take place in heaven, New Jerusalem might be a literal city that will defy our imagination both in beauty and scope of its true purpose.

Love,

Steadfast

[Sketch]

Dear Friends,

I used to accept WT theology as truth until I started looking into the Bible without the WT filter. No longer can I accept that the Kingdom rules invisibly from heaven, and that the 144,000 rule with Christ for a 1000 years from that location. I also disagree with how that resurrection takes place. [/b]

Hey steadfast,

we all know that there are issues with some of the WT doctrines. But i have one question for you....

when it comes down to it, Does it REALLY matter WHERE they rule from??

/i guess I'm just not into details...

[Molly]

Hi Steadfast-

I concur.

Love

Molly

[diamondiiz]

Dear Friends,

I used to accept WT theology as truth until I started looking into the Bible without the WT filter. No longer can I accept that the Kingdom rules invisibly from heaven, and that the 144,000 rule with Christ for a 1000 years from that location. I also disagree with how that resurrection takes place.

Jesus and Paul gave some very telling information about the sequencing of events.

Jesus said:

Matthew 24:29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days….

Mattthew 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Paul then fills in the details about it:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 – For this is what we tell you by the Lord's word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep* [in death]; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call with an archangel's voice and with God's trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. Afterward, we the living who are surviving will together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Paul seems to be saying that the entire group joins Jesus in the air and proceeds to the marriage of the Lamb. They aren't resurrected as they die, as WT teaches, but the bridal resurrection takes place as the entire group, not one at a time.

Paul further confirms what Jesus already told us in Matthew 24 about the timing of this event:

1 Corinthians 15:52 – in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This begs the question as to when the last trumpet is:

Revelation 10:7 – but in the days of the sounding of the seventh trumpet, when he is about to blow his trumpet, the sacred secret of God according to the good news which he declared to his own slaves the prophets is indeed brought to a finish.

The sounding of the seventh trumpet is just before Armageddon commences.

So does the bride really rule from heaven?

2Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work and will preserve me for His heavenly kingdom, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

Hebrews 3:1 Therefore, holy brothers, called to be partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus.

Heb 12:22-23 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.

Sounds like they might until we look here:

Revelation 5:9-10 And they sang a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the book and to open its seals, for You were slain and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation. And You made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign on the earth.

(There is no doubt that this verse is a hot-button for discussion and debate. :185: )

Jesus said:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would fight so that I might not be delivered to the Jews. But now My kingdom is not from here. (or as the NWT translates it: 'My kingdom is not from this source.')

Paul then says:

Galatians 4:26 But the Jerusalem from above is free, who is the mother of us.

Then finally in Revelation, we have a beautiful description of New Jerusalem (Jerusalem above) descending from heaven to the earth:

Revelation 21:2 And I, John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tent of God with men, and he will dwell with them and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them [and be] their God.

[i]This beautiful city becomes the source of the renewal of everlasting life on this earth:

Revelation 21:22 And I saw no temple in her for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb is her temple.

Revelation 21:24 And the nations that are healed will walk by her light and the kings of the earth will bring their glory and honor to her.

Revelation 22:1-2 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of her square, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life producing twelve fruits, yielding its fruit every month, and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

(Question: Was the original tree of life in heaven or on earth?)

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

What will a king/priest do in heaven for 1000 years? I've been pondering this for sometime.

Under the Law, the priests were responsible to care for temple duties and instructing the people. I believe they might have similar duties in the Kingdom. IMO, we will have kings/priests who rule with Christ on earth for 1000 years, and they will act as instructors in literal New Jerusalem. These will also have personal involvement as literal kings in helping to restore this earth to a beautiful paradise…just as was purposed in the Garden of Eden.

So while the Kingdom is sourced in heaven and the marriage may take place in heaven, New Jerusalem might be a literal city that will defy our imagination both in beauty and scope of its true purpose.

Love,

Steadfast[/b]


1 Cor. 15 talks quite a bit of resurrection. From that whole chapter I would tend to see a spiritual resurrection. Will the chosen ones rule directly from heaven? Could very well be but we do NOT know what and where heaven is. It could very well be another dimension where physical eye doesn't see without Jehovah opening the eye to that dimension. So could the earth be part of heavenly courtyard? Could very well be. The chosen ones who receive the incorruptible bodies would be spirit creatures but that doesn't mean they wouldn't materialize in different parts of the earth just as the angels did in the past. Our understanding is very limited of the spirit realm as to understand what the capabilities the spirit creatures posses.

Also we can also wonder if 144,000 are entire heavenly group or are they part of a larger heavenly resurrected body. The bible is very vague on details so for most part we can only speculate but by no means can we say for a fact what will take place. Also to add to the priest class, what role will they play? Will they play a role in resurrecting and using Christ's ransom sacrifice in behalf of each one resurrected? The earthly temple played a role of forgiveness and physical temple we probably won't have or need. When Jehovah created men he didn't institute a form of worship as came to be after the sin with the rituals.

Tree of life doesn't need to mean eternal life like WT suggest but a tree with healing capabilities. Could speculate on it having "fountain of youth" properties. Since Adam and Eve had one in the garden of Eden I would speculate that these would be earthly and revelation 22 speaks of these in a figurative sense that they are part of the blessings coming from Jehovah upon mankind.

[watchman]

It says in Genesis that Jehovah used to stroll around in the Garden of Eden about the breezy part of the day. Did God literally come down to earth and walk in paradise? No, of course not. There was simply some manifestation of his presence by means of holy spirit.

Same thing when Moses received the two tablets up on Mount Sinai, the account says that Jehovah came down onto the top of the mountain. Again, did God literally descend to earth? No, of course not. He simply caused a physical phenomenon to occur that was an undeniable manifestation of his presence.

In a similar way that is how the New Jerusalem ought to be understood. No gigantic emerald city is going to descend from heaven. Jerusalem, also called the city of David and the city of Jehovah, has always symbolized the kingdom of God. And that is what the New Jerusalem symbolizes. Christ and his 144,000 associate kings will exert control over the earth from heaven and establish a new form of worship.

watchman

[Cephalon]

It says in Genesis that Jehovah used to stroll around in the Garden of Eden about the breezy part of the day. Did God literally come down to earth and walk in paradise? No, of course not. There was simply some manifestation of his presence by means of holy spirit.

Same thing when Moses received the two tablets up on Mount Sinai, the account says that Jehovah came down onto the top of the mountain. Again, did God literally descend to earth? No, of course not. He simply caused a physical phenomenon to occur that was an undeniable manifestation of his presence.

In a similar way that is how the New Jerusalem ought to be understood. No gigantic emerald city is going to descend from heaven. Jerusalem, also called the city of David and the city of Jehovah, has always symbolized the kingdom of God. And that is what the New Jerusalem symbolizes. Christ and his 144,000 associate kings will exert control over the earth from heaven and establish a new form of worship.

watchman[/b]

I concur

[Steadfast]

Dear Sketch,

You said: 'when it comes down to it, Does it REALLY matter WHERE they rule from??'

Me: I have a question for you. Satan's kingdom rules first. How will you know the difference? :185:

Love,

Steadfast

[Jeshurun]

Dear Sketch,

You said: 'when it comes down to it, Does it REALLY matter WHERE they rule from??'

Me: I have a question for you. Satan's kingdom rules first. How will you know the difference? :185:

Love,

Steadfast[/b]

That's a really good question. And I have to wonder what will stop the Watchtower from claiming that the New World Order is God's Kingdom on earth if all the rulers are supposedly invisible. It's basically just a move of the FDS from Brooklyn to Heaven.

Could this be why they reduced the second half of Mark 16 to a footnote?

Love,
Jesh

[Sketch]

Me: I have a question for you. Satan's kingdom rules first. How will you know the difference? :185:[/b]

easy question (for me)...

considering we're already in a world ruled by satan, and knowing that things will get a WHOLE lot worse before they get better, i'd say that the gov't - ANY gov't that doesn't hold up to Jehovah's basic standard that man can not rule his fellow man is not from him.

Barrack holds a LOT of promise (yes, there is still a flicker of optimism left), but when it comes down to it, its still man-ruling-man... and in the end its still all controlled by satan.

now that i've answered your question-answer to my question, whats your answer to the my question?

/got that?

[Steadfast]

Dear Friends,

Looks like Sketch is up to his usual humor. :bieren:

Satan's bag of tricks will include a 'peaceful prosperous kingdom' that will come on the world scene first. What we are experiencing right now is the death of the present world system and the birth of the kingdom under Satan that will fool many. Many Christians are not expecting Satan to be so deceitful, but that is exactly what he will use…deception.

Jesus warned us about it.

According to New Age theology, this kingdom will bring about world peace and human rights. This is exactly what most people are longing for. They are tired of the war games and fighting, which has been deliberately brought into play by Satan using religious and political despots. These despots have played the Hegelian game of pitting opposing sides against each other to arrive at a synthesis.

The synthesis of the two opposing forces is Satan's peaceful, prosperous, socialist kingdom.

The hook is that it will only look peaceful and prosperous for those who take the mark of the beast so they can buy and sell. For the rest of us, we will be in great tribulation.

Love,

Steadfast

[Anthony]

Satan's bag of tricks will include a 'peaceful prosperous kingdom' that will come on the world scene first. What we are experiencing right now is the death of the present world system and the birth of the kingdom under Satan that will fool many. Many Christians are not expecting Satan to be so deceitful, but that is exactly what he will use…deception.[/b]

The only ones that will be fooled are those that do not know the true, all true Christians are expecting for Satan to be so deceitful.


5 Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, YOU need nothing to be written to YOU. ² For YOU yourselves know quite well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. ³ Whenever it is that they are saying: “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape. ⁴ But YOU, brothers, YOU are not in darkness, so that that day should overtake YOU as it would thieves, ⁵ for YOU are all sons of light and sons of day. We belong neither to night nor to darkness.

[Utuna]

Dear all,

Is there any biblical verse stating explicitly that the New Jerusalem and "the camp of the holy ones" descending from heaven on earth will not be like the shikinah, some kind of symbolic presence upon the earth.

If you don't think so, how would you explain Rev 20:9 : "And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them."

What would be against the possibility for the 144 000 kings to materialize at will in order to run earthly matters ?</span>

---------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[FutureMan]

Dear all,

Is there any biblical verse stating explicitly that the New Jerusalem and "the camp of the holy ones" descending from heaven on earth will not be like the shikinah, some kind of symbolic presence upon the earth.

If you don&#39;t think so, how would you explain Rev 20:9 : "And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them."

What would be against the possibility for the 144 000 kings to materialize at will in order to run earthly matters ?</span>

---------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[/b]

Good point Utuna, God&#39;s angels like Gabriel and those angels that communicated with Abraham and even had a meal with him proved that they can move in our out of our world quite freely. So it stands to reason that those who are of the 144,000 will certainly be able to do this. Perhaps Jesus cannot do this now because of the glory granted to him by his Father. His glory might perhaps be to great for us. But there is no indication that the 144,000 will receive the same glory as Jesus. So I cannot see any reason why they could not materialize like the angels and walk among us.

From FutureMan

[SlaveForJah]

His glory might perhaps be to great for us. But there is no indication that the 144,000 will receive the same glory as Jesus. So I cannot see any reason why they could not materialize like the angels and walk among us.

From FutureMan[/b]

Hey there FutureMan,

Nice to talk to you. There is an indication that the 144,000 will receive similar glory to that of our Lord. John has this to say:

"1 See what sort of love the Father has given us, so that we should be called children of God; and such we are. That is why the world does not have a knowledge of us, because it has not come to know him. 2 Beloved ones, now we are children of God, but as yet it has not been made manifest what we shall be. We do know that whenever he is made manifest we shall be like him, because we shall see him just as he is." - 1John 3:1,2


Hello Sister Steadfast,

I have a question for you in regards to the location of the Kingdom making a difference as to being deceived by Satan&#39;s counterfeit Kingdom. If the Kingdom truly rules from heaven, as the Watchtower teaches, then how will JWs be deceived by an earthly counterfeit? I&#39;m not saying that many won&#39;t be deceived, because I believe the Scriptures are clear on that account. But I don&#39;t see how a kingdom of earthly source could be mistaken for the Heavenly Kingdom. So, while I do believe that many JWs (and mankind in general) will be caught by Satan&#39;s trap/kingdom, I don&#39;t see that it will be for this particular reason.

Especially since Satan&#39;s kingdom will rule first. Since most JWs will be looking for a Heavenly Kingdom to be manifest, the earthly kingdom of Satan would be dismissed out of hand, at least for this reason.


Agape

SlaveForJah

[Steadfast]

Dear Utuna, FutureMan, and everyone,

Rev 20:9 : "And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them."

This was the verse that got me thinking about New Jerusalem being a literal city and the holy ones being not only the 144,000, but also the rest of the sons of Israel.

It&#39;s interesting that in the Old Testament, Jerusalem was referred to as the &#39;camp,&#39; so it seems appropriate that New Jerusalem might also be called the &#39;camp.&#39; In fact, Jesus died &#39;outside the camp&#39; on Golgotha.

Thanks for your valuable input on this topic.

Love,

Steadfast

[Steadfast]

Dear SlaveForJah,

…Old thread and I noticed I did not address your question. :blush:

You said: I have a question for you in regards to the location of the Kingdom making a difference as to being deceived by Satan&#39;s counterfeit Kingdom. If the Kingdom truly rules from heaven, as the Watchtower teaches, then how will JWs be deceived by an earthly counterfeit?

Me: I will build my case: JWs have not been taught to be aware that Satan&#39;s kingdom comes in the future because they think it&#39;s already here, since they believe he was already cast out of heaven in 1914-1918. They teach the world has been in great turmoil since that time. JWs are also taught that the great tribulation will come upon the whole earth, including them.

So my questions are, who receives the mark of the beast, and what purpose does the mark of the beast serve? Isn&#39;t it given so that those who receive it will be able to buy and sell? Will their lives be uprooted and chaotic or will they be peaceful and secure?

Some things that I have pondered and will throw out to you:

1. Why have so many churches and religious organizations thrown their support behind the United Nations as NGOs, including the WT?

2. Why did the WT publically condemn other religious groups for being an NGO and secretly become one themselves?

3. Why did they quickly resign just days after they were outed?

4. Why have they come out publically with &#39;new light&#39; saying that the UN is just another government to be dealt with, when for decades they published in their publications it was Satan&#39;s kingdom opposing Jesus Christ?

5. Why do they continue to act as an NGO outside the United States?

I will propose that many clergy and religious organizations will proclaim Satan&#39;s kingdom as the true Kingdom under Christ.

I will propose that many Christians will be told that we have already gone through the great tribulation when Satan&#39;s kingdom is fully manifest.

This information will be doubly impressive with the total financial global failure just ahead, and the subsequent revival from the death-blow of the 7th head of the beast….as the 8th king.

Many believe that religion will go down at the beginning of the real tribulation, but Revelation reveals that false religion (including false Christianity) will stand until the brink of Armageddon. Why would Satan destroy the religions that already belong to him, including JWs?

I can picture this:

1. The global financial collapse brings the entire planet to the brink of destruction.

2. It miraculously revives as the one world government – one world religion.

3. A false messiah comes on the world scene (Revelation 6 – First white horse rider) at the beginning of the world distress proclaiming the way to peace and prosperity.

4. A global system is set up, that by wealth redistribution, provides for all. This would also probably include an income guaranteed by the new government.

5. To qualify for this income, you will have to &#39;drop a pinch of incense&#39; to the false messiah and his god.

6. World clergy will hail this false kingdom as true because they already support it.

7. The sheeple will be deceived because they have their spiritual heads stuck in the sand…just where the clergy want them.

8. This Satanic kingdom will look so real, and so good, that many will take the mark thinking they are receiving the saving mark of Revelation.

9. The two witnesses, which are more than two, according to the words defined in Zechariah, will preach the truth and be hated and killed for it, by those who think they will be rendering a sacred service to their god.

10. When the rapture takes place at the end of the tribulation, when Jesus really returns and every eye sees him, then they will know the truth.

I would call this the deception Jesus warned us about. Will it be too late for repentance? I pray not.

Love,

Steadfast

[Eyes & Ears]

"Steadfast said: Will it be too late for repentance? I pray not.



I pray it won&#39;t be too late also Steadfast. Thank you for your expressions.

E & E