Locusts Of Revelation 9

[Steadfast]

Dear Friends,

Anyone who knows me well will say I'm always doing some kind of Biblical research. :185: It seems to be my niche as a Christian, and like most Christians who do alot of research, I have always wondered what the following verses in Revelation mean:

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

Rev 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Rev 9:3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

We've all gone round and round with it (especially me), not even being able to fully understand who Abaddon and Apollyon are.

After stewing over it and researching it, IMO, the key to understanding who the locusts picture and who Abaddon and Apollyon are might be found in verse 8:

Rev 9:8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.

At first glance, the words didn't impact me, until I began to entertain what 1 Corinthians is saying:

1Co 11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a disgrace to him?

Most so-called 'Christian' representations of Christ show him having long hair, which according to Jewish tradition echoed by Paul would have been a disgrace. If we accept this information as truth, then we have to conclude that those mentioned in Revelation 9 as having the hair of women are in some way an abomination.

So who are these locusts with the long hair of women?

The fact that they are released from an abyss shows they have been in captivity. Could these be the fallen spirits or angels who sinned prior to the Flood, the same ones Christ preached to?

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison;

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Speaking of Jesus, 1 Timothy 3:16 says: And evidently great is the mystery of godliness, which was manifested in the flesh, was justified in the spirit, appeared to angels, has been preached to the Gentiles, is believed in the world, is taken up in glory.

Here is an interesting rendering of Psalm 68 that may be alluding to these fallen ones:

Psalm 68:21-22 – God himself shall smite the head of his enemies, those proud sinners with their flowing locks. The Lord says, 'I will return from the Dragon, I will return from the depths of the sea.'

I think most of us agree that Jesus preached a message of condemnation to these fallen angels, but is it possible that these imprisoned angels will be released from their prison when Satan is cast out of heaven? Will these ones be permitted to torment mankind who take the mark of the beast?

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

What do you think?

Love,

Steadfast

[watchman]

What do you think?[/b]

I think the WT's interpretation is correct, as least as to the identity, not the timing. Keep in mind that Nazirites had long hair. Samson was one of the foremost long-haired Nazirites. And he was a ferocious warrior of God. In fact, Samson and the judges typify the anointed after the sealing. That is when the remaining ones of the kingdom become as formidable as lions, at least according to Micah 5:8 -- "And the remaining ones of Jacob must become among the nations, in the midst of many peoples, like a lion among the beasts of a forest, like a maned young lion among droves of sheep, which, when it actually passes through, certainly both tramples down and tears in pieces; and there is no deliverer. Your hand will be high above your adversaries, and all enemies of yours will be cut off.�


watchman

[Utuna]

Dear Steadfast and Watchman,

Steadfast, I think approximatively the same thing than you. I wrote about it in another thread, but I didn't go into details because I just wrote down the intuitions I have about it. If one of my ideas makes you think about something I didn't, we'll all be able to make some progress. On the contrary, if you think I'm wrong, please tell it because I'm just aiming at the truth for everyone.

There are a few details that bother me in the WT interpretation.

1) The locusts have crowns and are countless. Are not the individuals making up the faithful "anointed remnant" about 5 000 - 7 000*, and supposed to be crowned kings, or sealed, just before the seventh trumpet? The events related in Rv 9 are taking place well before (at least 5 months) the blowing of the seventh trumpet. As for the harm of their sting, how would a preaching work make suffer people without conscience, just as they are depicted so (not having the seal of God on their foreheads)?

2) The crowns on the heads of the locusts are "what seemed to be crowns like gold".

"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Jeshurun]

Dear Sister Steadfast, are you sure that Jewish custom looked down on long hair on men? Because I was going to bring up the same thing Robert did about Samson and the Nazirites. I think Paul, or whoever interpolated some of his work, was dreaming. In one breath, women are not allowed to speak in the congregation, and in another, they should wear a head covering when they speak. Well which is it? In other parts of his epistles he praises the women who were taking a lead role in the congregations. Sorry but I think somebody in the translating dept. somewhere down the line was up to no good again. Suppressing women sounds like a Roman church thing.

Anyways, on everything else I agree with you, the locust invasion is the first woe. The next woe is the cavalry of 200 million (vs.16-19) most likely a roundabout literal number. I think the point Jesus is trying to make is there will be a lot. How many hordes is God unleashing anyway? The locusts are told only to plague those without God's seal, that means everybody that needs to be tested who aren't chosen. (And no one is chosen until they are sealed!) They wouldn't touch those with the mark of the beast, that what the cavalry is for. It seems to me like this is God's answer to Satan being cast down and releasing his buddies from Tartarus. I think these locusts are demonic-human hybrids, and Abaddon is the King of these dudes, not the fallen star who releases them! (Remember Jesus said, "as in the days of Noah...")

Abaddon/Apollyon is central to Mason worship. He's their final King of Fierce Countenance, the Man of Lawlessness risen from the abyss, Nebuchadnezzar, Nimrod, every evil dude who ever lived rolled up into one. The big Superhero they're waiting for....

Jesh

[Gabriel]

Woa Jesh....thats deep bro. I think this thing is going to get waaay more Bizzarre than what any of us had ever imagined.

[Steadfast]

Dear Friends,

According to Dr. Moffatt and the Jerusalem Bible, rebellious spirits were pictured as having long hair.

Josephus also said when Jewish men were imprisoned, they expressed shame for their crimes by letting their hair grown long, thus Jewish males would shun wearing long hair because of its association with criminals. – Antiquities XV, 172.

I have no doubt in my mind that those released from the abyss are wicked. Good entities don't go into or come from the abyss. Compare Revelation 17:8:

Rev 17:8 The beast that you saw and is not, and shall ascend out of the abyss and go into perdition, and they they dwell of the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Dear Utuna: You make some very thought-provoking observations. :)

Love,

Steadfast

[Tsaphah]

I agree with watchman on this one. According to the Law given to Israel, all first born belonged to Jehovah. (Ex 13:2, 12) They became the devoted ones, or “Naziyr”. We know them as Nazarites, or Nazarene’s. This name was also used to describe untrimmed vines in a sabbatical year and during the fiftieth jubilee year. (Le 25:5, 11) Those that were dedicated to Jehovah as a Nazarite were not to cut their hair. (Ju 13:5, 7; 16:17) A person did not necessarily need to be the first born to become a Nazarite. They could make a special vow and dedicate themselves to Jehovah. (Nu 6:2, 13, 18-21)

The Nazarite that is most well known is Samson. But, John the Baptist and Jesus were also Nazarites. That is why most depictions of them show them with long hair. We can only assume from the scriptures that they did not cut their hair.

You raise some interesting questions. As far as Abaddon/Appollyon, in both Greek and Hebrew they mean Destruction. In the Hebrew scriptures the word is used six times. (Job 26:6, 28:22, 31:12), (Ps 88:11), (Pr 15:11, 27:20) The term is used in connection with the grave in all cases. So the two are tied together. As for the abyss, we could also call it a “Black Hole”, because abyss means without bottom, immeasurable depth, or boundless.

The NEB translation of Ps 68:21, “God himself shall smite the head of his enemies, those proud sinners with their flowing locks.”, and Moffet, “…each long-haired sinner who defies Him.”, are the only two translations that I know of that refer to long hair. Most translations use “hairy crown” or “hairy skull” as the Hebrew uses the term “sear qodqod” (hair head) or hair of the head. This particular scripture is referring to those who oppose Jehovah and the resulting consequences of their actions.

Which translation did you use for Ps 68:22? “From Bashan I shall bring back, I shall bring [them] back from the depths of the sea,” (Ps 68:22 NWT) Most translations that I have seen don’t use Dragon because the Hebrew word there is Bashan. It is the district east of the Jordan river and means fruitful because of the fertility of the soil. It was the kingdom of Og, the king of Bashan. (De 3:1-3). It was given to the half tribe of Manasseh.

The scriptures you mention appear to involve war between Jehovah and those who oppose him. I think this is the main point being described in Revelation. We also have to remember that Revelation is “presented in signs”. Just as the Israelite nation was in expectation of the coming messiah, we also are waiting for the return of the Messiah and the kingdom of God. Keep researching and studying the word of God. Keep applying his instructions in your daily life. (1 Pe 3:8-15)

May all of YOU who are in union with Christ have peace.

Tsaphah

[Jinnvisible]

There is a missing interpolation with this. `Nakedness` with regard to spirituality is also connected to baldness in scripture Also the `keeping of outer garments`. There are scriptures that make an allowance for it in the law and prophets (Dueteronomy / Elisha ect.). As steadfast suggest long hair is also connected with shamefulness in ancient Israel. In fact the extremes. It is coneceted with both holyness and shamefullness in scripture.

Paul was not being doubleminded with regard to women speaking, or hair. The margin is visible. Jesus appeared risen first to women the apostles were forced to take note that the most important event the ressurection of Christ was taught them by a woman. Basically the periferals are customary, although not optional. Hense Paul`s protocol for women is generally to do with women teaching in a gathering by direct speech. Upon a very unusual circumstance it might happen (women speaking thus) in accordance with god's will yet it is not general protocol. Again with men's hair in Corinthians, the clue is Paul's context of custom. he says there is no other custom, he is not speaking in terms of legality. Paul is always working toward an optimising of things beneficial within the congregation.

Hense these are smaller issues they are not absolute ones of condemnation. For instance Paul ripped his clothes apart as a sign of distress when some men called him a god. Bethelites have been at times flippantly flattered as being like angels, or the angels of brooklyn. I`ve heard it said yet no one is ripping thier garments. Men also don`t kiss each other as Paul comanded.

Jehovah almighty, is famous for doing things like this when his people offend him though. He will make astonishing judgements and send pagans to lead his people such as Cyrus, have gay men fulfilling prophesy such as Alexander the Great. You get in a situation where in `share trading speak` all bets are off. If you see and believe this about Jah, though its not good to use it to beat up Paul because he was always working toward optimisation of congregational opperations. Or because he made different descisions indifferent situations.

If you do that you are showing the same lack of abillity to distinguish between - beneficial protocols - and - rules used as a licence for condemnatory judgement - that insitutionally hypnotised men do.

Look at it this way. If a man with long hair had spoken up for Paul (in his behalf) when the superfine apostles were attacking Paul, Paul would have proberbly appreciated that, as Christ appreciated the comments of the sympathetic crimninal on Golgotha. Paul might have even kissed such a man and offered him a free haircut + circumcision with the same pair or scissors.

Or if a woman had stood and spoken, recomennding Paul in the Corinthian cong. Paul might have also appreciated that. Offered to do all her speaking for her / help her wash up / mo the lawn, so she could relax. The point being that some matters are wieghtier than others in regard to justice. Even the WTBTS publishes in recent years Isaiah and John the baptiser with longer hair as he got progressively older and more Jehovah like. The Isiaiah books also included a really wonderfull painting of Christ that predatyes the WTBTS by a famous secular artist in which Christ has shoulder long hair.

So my view is

1) Don`t beat Paul up with his protocol simply because you may feel condemned because of them he was a well meaning efficient leader. His own position varied in different situations and customs / protocols aren`t laws in the absolute condemnatory sense.

2) Steadfast you are good to go. Grinning leonine hippy insects don`t sound too appealing.

[Tsaphah]

I just wanted to come back to your interest in Abaddon/Apollyon in Revelation 9:11. The primary particle of the word “apollyon” is “apo” which has the meaning; “of any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed.”, according to Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary and the “Theological Dictionary of the New Testament.” Apollyon is the combination of the primary particle of the word + the base of the word ollumi, which means to destroy or “to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin.”

Apo = a prefix occurring originally in loanwords from Greek, where it was joined to verbs, deverbal forms, and other parts of speech. Among its functions in Greek, apo- has the spatial sense “away, off, apart” (apogee; apocope; apostasy; apostrophe); it occurs with deverbals that denote a response or defense (apodosis; apology) and is found on verbs having perfective force relative to a corresponding simple verb (apoplexy; aposiopesis). In modern scientific coinages in English and other languages, apo- marks things that are detached, separate, or derivative (apocarpous; apoenzyme). From the Random House Unabridged Dictionary.

The book which we refer to as Revelation is Apokalupto in Greek, literally meaning “to uncover”. The name of the angel is not necessarily a given name. It is most likely a verb which describes the action that is to be performed. An example could be that of an executioner. Executioner is not his name but his given duty. This is the case of the angel that is given the keys of the abyss. It also says, “And I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to the earth,” Who is this angel? “And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.” (Jude 6)

I had a good laugh as I read Revelation 9:1-4. I was thinking of what the EPA would have to say about all that smoke from the furnace that darkened the sun. Hey, did they get a permit? Did they file an EIR report? What fees did they pay? We had better get a committee together to study the effects of this. Who gave them the right to spew all those pollutants into our air? Do you see what coal-fired plants do to the environment??? Owww!! Hey, I just got bit by a locust! But it felt like a scorpion!

Too bad they didn’t read Luke 10:16-22.

A very interesting scripture. “…because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones, and have revealed them to babes.” Lk 10:21

To all, 2 Pe 3:17-18
Tsaphah

[Steadfast]

Dear Friends,

Interesting tidbit from the Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 1, Bashan:

'The region of Bashan apparently first enters the Bible record at Genesis 14:5 in the reference to the Rephaim (giants) in Ashteroth-karnaim, who were defeated by the invading kings of Abraham's time (before 1933 B.C.E.). At the time of the Israelite invasion (c. 1473 B.C.E.), Og, the king of Bashan and the last remaining one of the giantlike men of that area, was defeated and slain, and the land was occupied by Israel. (Nu 21:33-35; De 3:1-3, 11; Jos 13:12)'

From the internet:

Remnant of the Rephaim

In Deut. 3:11 and later in the book of Numbers and Joshua, Og is pronounced as the last of the Rephaim. Rephaim is a Hebrew word for giants and that is exactly how king Og is described. Deut. 3:11 declares that his "bedstead" of iron is "nine cubits in length and four cubits in width" (13 ft x 6 ft) according to the standard cubit of a man.

It goes on to say that at the royal city of Rabbah of the Ammonites, his giant bedstead could still be seen as a novelty in those days. It is noteworthy that the region north of the river Jabbok, or Bashan, "the land of Rephaim", contains hundreds of megalithic stone tombs (dolmen) dating from the 5th to 3rd millenia BCE.

In 1918, Gustav Dalman discovered in the neighborhood of Amman Jordan (Amman is built on the ancient city of Rabbah of Ammon) a noteworthy dolmen which matched the approximate dimensions of Og's bed as described in the Bible. Such ancient rock burials are seldom seen west of the Jordan river, and the only other concentration of these megaliths are to be found in the hills of Judah in the vicinity of Hebron, where the giant sons of Anak were said to have lived (Numbers 13:33).

Perhaps the real connection to Bashan in this case, is what it originally represented.

Love,

Steadfast

[Steadfast]

Nazarite Vow

Num 6:1 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying,

Num 6:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the LORD:

Num 6:3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.

Num 6:4 All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk.

Num 6:5 All the days of the vow of his separation there shall no razor come upon his head: until the days be fulfilled, in the which he separateth himself unto the LORD, he shall be holy, and shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow.

Num 6:6 All the days that he separateth himself unto the LORD he shall come at no dead body.

Num 6:7 He shall not make himself unclean for his father, or for his mother, for his brother, or for his sister, when they die: because the consecration of his God is upon his head.

Num 6:8 All the days of his separation he is holy unto the LORD.

Num 6:9 And if any man die very suddenly by him, and he hath defiled the head of his consecration; then he shall shave his head in the day of his cleansing, on the seventh day shall he shave it.

Num 6:10 And on the eighth day he shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons, to the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation:

Num 6:11 And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering, and make an atonement for him, for that he sinned by the dead, and shall hallow his head that same day.

Num 6:12 And he shall consecrate unto the LORD the days of his separation, and shall bring a lamb of the first year for a trespass offering: but the days that were before shall be lost, because his separation was defiled.

Num 6:13 And this is the law of the Nazarite, when the days of his separation are fulfilled: he shall be brought unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation:

Num 6:14 And he shall offer his offering unto the LORD, one he lamb of the first year without blemish for a burnt offering, and one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish for a sin offering, and one ram without blemish for peace offerings,

Num 6:15 And a basket of unleavened bread, cakes of fine flour mingled with oil, and wafers of unleavened bread anointed with oil, and their meat offering, and their drink offerings.

Num 6:16 And the priest shall bring them before the LORD, and shall offer his sin offering, and his burnt offering:

Num 6:17 And he shall offer the ram for a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD, with the basket of unleavened bread: the priest shall offer also his meat offering, and his drink offering.

Num 6:18 And the Nazarite shall shave the head of his separation at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall take the hair of the head of his separation, and put it in the fire which is under the sacrifice of the peace offerings.

Num 6:19 And the priest shall take the sodden shoulder of the ram, and one unleavened cake out of the basket, and one unleavened wafer, and shall put them upon the hands of the Nazarite, after the hair of his separation is shaven:

Num 6:20 And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the Nazarite may drink wine.

Num 6:21 This is the law of the Nazarite who hath vowed, and of his offering unto the LORD for his separation, beside that that his hand shall get: according to the vow which he vowed, so he must do after the law of his separation.

My comment: Jesus drank wine at the Last Supper, so he could not have been in a Nazarite vow at that time. He also consumed vinegar just before he died. This is not to be confused with the gall (wormwood) and vinegar that was offered to him when he was first impaled. Wormwood is a poison and perhaps this was offered as a humane way to hasten an execution, but Jesus refused it.

[Utuna]

Dear all,

Your messages about women's hair make me think of a book about biblical poetry that I read last year. The author took the example of the "Song of Deborah":

"And on that day Deb´o·rah along with Ba´rak the son of A·bin´o·am broke out in song, saying:

"For letting the hair hang loose in Israel [for war],
For the people's volunteering,
BLESS Jehovah." - (Judges5:1-2)


-----------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[stayawake]

Thank you Jinn for defending the apostle Paul, as he isn't here to do it himself.
I know many times out in service female householders that thought they knew the bible would not accept the bible because of Pauls writings .One could almost see they were men haters, that or else they were the head of the house.

Paul was the only apostle appointed by Jesus after Jesus was glorified by his Father and then Jesus appointed him as a apostle to the nations. While Paul was still in the flesh he seen the brillance of Christ gloification.

Paul is credited to writing fourteen books of the New Testiment, if anyone understood the Sacred Secret of God it was him.That may be one reason he comes under attack all the time. Those fourteen books would have never been writen had Jesus not selected Paul. To reject Pauls writings ,is to reject his appointment by Jesus.
I thought Christ was the head of the body members !

Yet on the other hand humans will put their trust into the writings of worldly imperfect men that are serving this old system of things,
Something is seriously wrong here.

stayawake

[Steadfast]

From the Jewish Tanakh concerning Bashan and Gog's crowd and the battle of Armageddon:

Ezekiel 39:17-21 – And you, O mortal, say to every winged bird and to all the wild beasts: Thus said the Lord GOD: Assembly, come and gather from all around for the sacrificial feast that I am preparing for you – a great sacrificial feast – upon the mountains of Israel, and eat flesh and drink blood. You shall eat the flesh of warriors and drink the blood of the princes of the earth: ram, lambs, he-goats, and bulls – fatlings of Bashan all of them.

You shall eat fat to satiety and drink your fill of blood from the sacrificial feast that I have prepared for you. And you shall sate yourself at My table with horses, charioteers, warriors; and all fighting men – declares the Lord GOD. Thus will I manifest My glory among the nations, and all the nations will see the judgment that I executed and the power that I wielded against them.

[Utuna]

Dear all,

I've found a couple of interesting Bible footnotes while making personal biblical researches. I'd like to share them with you.

"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Desert Blossom]

The Bible indicates that Tartarus is the abyss, even calls it prison.

(2 Peter 2:4) .*.*.Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tar′ta‧rus*, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment;

*(Luke 8:31) And they kept entreating him not to order them to go away into the abyss.

*(1 Peter 3:19) In this [state] also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison,

[Utuna]

"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Bible student]

Jesus is the keeper of this abyss, but hy would he be master over demons when satan is their master, and remember the demons are imprisoned in tartarus till the judgement comes, and why would the demons come out and not torture those having Gods mark, as those in the world and that have beasts mark belong to satan?

So, who are these, and their breastsplates are of iron.

These things have jesus as their king. So, they are his servants. They come out in what looks like smoke. As a soldier, we used smoke to disguise, to hide, the enemy do this too, so you cant see what is behind the smoke...it can be paratroopes, it can be tanks, it can be anything, and it is used before a direct attack, it can come from anywhere, so these servants of jehovah are disguised maybe? but they are stinging those that dont have the mark, torturing them, and this happens before the time of the end comes.

Tormenting those not having the mark, maybe tormenting those saying they have a mark but dont? Torturing those saying they have the mark and stinging them with the poison of their hypocrisy....any thoughts?

[Bible student]

Really interesting reply watchman, I think these locusts are servants of God, doing battle for him, and if we look at the begining of revelation, we see how there are those that are saying they are Gods servants and are not, these locuts find it detestable too...but really interesting quote about the long hair and gong to war, I would never have thought about it. Thank you.

[Utuna]

Jesus is the keeper of this abyss, but why would he be master over demons when satan is their master, and remember the demons are imprisoned in tartarus till the judgement comes, and why would the demons come out and not torture those having Gods mark, as those in the world and that have beasts mark belong to satan?

So, who are these, and their breastsplates are of iron.

These things have jesus as their king. So, they are his servants. They come out in what looks like smoke. As a soldier, we used smoke to disguise, to hide, the enemy do this too, so you cant see what is behind the smoke...it can be paratroopes, it can be tanks, it can be anything, and it is used before a direct attack, it can come from anywhere, so these servants of jehovah are disguised maybe? but they are stinging those that dont have the mark, torturing them, and this happens before the time of the end comes.

Tormenting those not having the mark, maybe tormenting those saying they have a mark but dont? Torturing those saying they have the mark and stinging them with the poison of their hypocrisy....any thoughts?[/b]

Dear BS,

Yes, Jesus may be the keeper of the abyss, but someone gives the key of the abyss to the fallen star (Rv9:1). It means that the fallen star hadn't it to release the demons before then. Thus, this fallen star receives authority over the abode of the demons. How could Satan and his armies be prepared for war against Jesus and his armies if the demons are still kept in custody in Tartarus?

In addition, these locusts have crowns. Nevertheless, the anointed ones are only crowned kings and priests when they're sealed, just before the 7th is blown. The two witnesses are told by Jehovah to give a final witness. Do the locusts receive any assignment from Jehovah ?

The locusts persecute those not having the mark of God because He will protect those he loves (the then faithful and discreet slave ((two witnesses), and the GC). The others are just experimenting what is about to become the dominion of Satan's Seed over the earth, whether directly or through human empires. Jehovah always said that he wouldn't allow his enemies to destroy completely his servants on earth (relative protection for the GC, immortal resurrection for anointed ones).

-----------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Bible student]

<div class='quotemain'>Jesus is the keeper of this abyss, but why would he be master over demons when satan is their master, and remember the demons are imprisoned in tartarus till the judgement comes, and why would the demons come out and not torture those having Gods mark, as those in the world and that have beasts mark belong to satan?

So, who are these, and their breastsplates are of iron.

These things have jesus as their king. So, they are his servants. They come out in what looks like smoke. As a soldier, we used smoke to disguise, to hide, the enemy do this too, so you cant see what is behind the smoke...it can be paratroopes, it can be tanks, it can be anything, and it is used before a direct attack, it can come from anywhere, so these servants of jehovah are disguised maybe? but they are stinging those that dont have the mark, torturing them, and this happens before the time of the end comes.

Tormenting those not having the mark, maybe tormenting those saying they have a mark but dont? Torturing those saying they have the mark and stinging them with the poison of their hypocrisy....any thoughts?[/b]

Dear BS,

Yes, Jesus may be the keeper of the abyss, but someone gives the key of the abyss to the fallen star (Rv9:1). It means that the fallen star hadn&#39;t it to release the demons before then. Thus, this fallen star receives authority over the abode of the demons. How could Satan and his armies be prepared for war against Jesus and his armies if the demons are still kept in custody in Tartarus?

In addition, these locusts have crowns. Nevertheless, the anointed ones are only crowned kings and priests when they&#39;re sealed, just before the 7th is blown. The two witnesses are told by Jehovah to give a final witness. Do the locusts receive any assignment from Jehovah ?

The locusts persecute those not having the mark of God because He will protect those he loves (the then faithful and discreet slave ((two witnesses), and the GC). The others are just experimenting what is about to become the dominion of Satan&#39;s Seed over the earth, whether directly or through human empires. Jehovah always said that he wouldn&#39;t allow his enemies to destroy completely his servants on earth (relative protection for the GC, immortal resurrection for anointed ones).

-----------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton
[/b][/quote]


Its a difficult one to grasp, but their hair being let down for war? and this passage says that they have a king over them, and jesus has this key to the abyss....i need to pray on it, to have wisdom and understanding on it..maybe i can ask watchman

[watchman]

Yes, Jesus may be the keeper of the abyss, but someone gives the key of the abyss to the fallen star (Rv9:1). It means that the fallen star hadn&#39;t it to release the demons before then. Thus, this fallen star receives authority over the abode of the demons. How could Satan and his armies be prepared for war against Jesus and his armies if the demons are still kept in custody in Tartarus?[/b]

Tartarus is not a literal place. It is simply a symbol for the spiritual darkness and restraints that God put on the demons. Revelation the 12th chapter shows that Satan and his angels are fully capable of putting up a fight in heaven.


In addition, these locusts have crowns. Nevertheless, the anointed ones are only crowned kings and priests when they&#39;re sealed, just before the 7th is blown. The two witnesses are told by Jehovah to give a final witness. Do the locusts receive any assignment from Jehovah ?[/b]

That is debatable. The blowing of the 7th trumpet basically heralds the end of the world. The sealing, and hence crowning, takes place before the 1st trumpet is sounded.


The locusts persecute those not having the mark of God because[/b]

I would be careful there. It does not say that the locust "persecute" anyone. They are allowed to torment those who do not have the seal (indicative that the sealing has already taken place.) Elsewhere in the scriptures people who do not like the message of God are described as being tormented by it.

watchma

[Steadfast]

Dear Friends,

Here are scriptures taken from the Aramaic identifying the abyss:

Luke 8:2-31 – And when he (Jesus) had come onto the land, he met a certain man from the city who had had a demon a long time. And he did not wear clothes and did not live in a house, but among the tombs.

And when he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell down before him and spoke with a loud voice, "What do we have in common, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me."

For Jesus was commanding the unclean spirit to go out of the man, for a long time had passed since he was first held captive by him. And he was bound with chains and restrained with fetters, but he broke his bonds and was driven by the demon into the wilderness.

And Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" He said to him, "Legion," because many demons entered into him.

And they were begging him that he would not command them to go to the abyss.

Revelation 9:1-4 – And the fifth angel sounded and I saw a star that fell from heaven on the earth and the key of the pits of the abyss was given to him.

And smoke went up from the pits, as the smoke of a large furnace that was heated up. And the sun was darkened and the air also from the smoke of the pits.

And from the smoke, locusts went out on the earth and the authority that belongs to the scorpions of the earth was given to them.

And it was told to them that they should not harm the grass of the earth or any herb, not even the trees, but only the men who did not have the seal of God in their foreheads.

Tartarus may very well be the same place as the abyss mentioned in the New Testament:

A Greek word, Tartaroo, is also mistranslated "hell" in the New Testament. This word is used only once in the Bible (2 Peter 2:4), where it refers to the place where the fallen angels, or demons, are restrained awaiting their judgment.

The Expository Dictionary of Bible Words explains that Tartaroo means "To confine in Tartaros" and that "Tartaros was the Greek name for the mythological abyss in which rebellious gods were confined" (p. 337).

Peter used this reference to contemporary mythology to show that the sinning angels were "delivered . . . into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment." These fallen angels are in a condition or place of restraint awaiting their ultimate judgment for their rebellion against God and destructive influence on humanity.

2 Peter 2:4 – For indeed God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down in chains of darkness into the low [regions] and delivered them to be kept for the judgment of torment.

But, according to Revelation, these demons will be released before their ultimate destruction. No other entities go into or come from the abyss but the sinning angels and Satan:

Revelation 20:1-2 – And I saw another angel that came down from heaven, who had the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.

And he grabbed the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the Accuser and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

One other very interesting point I discovered in the Aramaic, concerns the beast of Revelation 17. This seems to be the key to unlocking the identity of the beast of Revelation 17. Many Greek translations render the source of this beast as abyss, but the Aramaic says it like this:

Revelation 17:8 – The creature that you saw was and is not and is going to come up from the sea and go to destruction. And those living on the earth will wonder, whose names are not written in the Scroll of Life from the foundations of the world, when they see the creature that was and is not and approaches.

There is only one beast that comes out of the sea:

Revelation 13:1-2 – And I stood on the sand of the sea, And I saw a beast coming up from the sea that had ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns, ten diadems, and on his head, the name of blasphemy.

And the beast that I saw……And the dragon have him his own power and his throne and great authority.

The second beast of Revelation 13:11 comes from the earth:

And I saw another beast coming up from the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and he was speaking as the dragon.

The sea is the source of the beast mentioned in Revelation 17, which sources it back to the first beast of Revelation 13.

The abyss, however, is the location of the confinement of the demons who will be released at the fifth trumpet so that Satan can harm his own.

What insanity and retribution on those who take the mark of the beast!

Love,

Steadfast

[Utuna]

-----------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Utuna]

Dear Steadfast,

In fact, Tartarus is a prison and the abyss are the Sheol.

Please read the following :

"Will Satan and his demons be active while in the abyss? Well, remember the scarlet-colored, seven-headed wild beast that "was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss." (Revelation 17:8) While in the abyss, it &#39;was not.&#39; It was nonfunctioning, immobilized, to all intents and purposes dead. Likewise, speaking of Jesus, the apostle Paul said: "&#39;Who will descend into the abyss?&#39; that is, to bring Christ up from the dead." (Romans 10:7) While in that abyss, Jesus was dead. It is reasonable to conclude, then, that Satan and his demons will be in a state of deathlike inactivity for the thousand years of their abyssing. What good tidings for lovers of righteousness!" - (Re ch. 40, p. 288)

The locusts come from the abyss. The demons are in Tartarus, but are hurled down from heaven with Satan. At first, the locusts are not demons (Luke10:18-19), but they are given the same power and authority than them : "and authority was given them, the same authority as the scorpions of the earth have*" - (Rv9:3), it means that they become powerful demons, with phoney crowns on their head. The second flight made up with horses (9:17, but they look like the first locusts) don&#39;t wear crowns, they&#39;re only demons (constituting the first beast (Rv13:1)). The two witnesses will have some power over them during 1260, but their power will be dashed during the 30 following days.

*Interestingly, their faces were as men&#39;s faces. They ressembled like horses in battle (Rv9:7).

ERRATUM: Regarding my previous post, the "victory" of the second beast/DT will last from the 1291 till the 1335<sup><sub>-----------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Steadfast]

Dear Utuna,

According to the scriptures in Revelation 12, Satan draws away a third of the angels in heaven. Most think that this happens when Satan is cast out of heaven by Michael at the beginning of the great tribulation.

The locusts of Revelation 9 are not released until the 5th trumpet, when the great trib is almost finished.

If you look at Revelation 8, you will see that the seals open before any trumpets blow:

Verse 1 - And I saw when he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for half an hour.

Verse 2 - And I saw seven angels who were standing before God. Seven trumpets were given to them.

Verse 6 - And the seven angels who had the seven trumpets on them prepared themselves to sound.

Verse 7 - And the first angel sounded.....

The event of Revelation 12 and the event of Revelation 9 are two different events.

It&#39;s important to see this because the casting out of Satan and his angels in Revelation 12 will affect God&#39;s people:

Revelation 12:17 - And the dragon was furious about the woman and he went to wage war with the rest of her seed, those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus.

The event of the 5th trumpet in Revelation 9 will not affect God&#39;s people.

Love,

Steadfast

[NewWorld]

Steadfast and anyone else,

And here yet is another theory.

What if the sixth seal simply brings silence in heaven. Just before the seals are opened in Rev. 5:14, "and the four living creatures went saying "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped." This seventh trumpet blast could be the opening of the first seal! There were no chapters in the original scripts, so Rev. 8:2 could simply be John seeing the angels with the trumpets, rather then the sixth seal bringing them forward... After all John hears a trumpet in chapter 4:1 before ch. 6 and the seals ... "sidenote"

I can see a possibility that all the trumpet blasts occur before the seals are opened, and once the seventh trumpet blasts then the first seal is opened... It just appears that Satan is thrown out of heaven first. The star that falls from heaven and given the key to the abyss, this has to be Satan&#39;s ouster from heaven. It&#39;s the only thing that makes since... and that the first four trumpet blasts happen from the start of the 2300 days to the start of the 1260 days. a span of 1040 days. Then the first five seals would occur during those 1260 days and then the 6th seal during those 30 days after, 1290 days. Then the bowls during the 45 days after that reaching 1335...

That these dates run on top of each other and that the 1290 days run 30 days after the constant feature is brought into it&#39;s right condition in which time the holy people are being dashed!!! Then if this is the case Brother, the call to get out of her would not be till after the 3.5 times and the 1260 days and that is after the holy place is brought into its right condition. That we are to continue preaching in sackcloth for those three and a half times! That proves we are to stay in the organization. Now are we positive about this, cause this is very important for you and I brother... When it is we are suppose to flee to the mountains. Cause I have believed there were two separate sighting of the disgusting thing. One when the disgusting thing removes the constant feature and second time when it returns to plant its tents in Da. 11:45, Dan. 12:11 30 days after the 1260... The constant feature being removed is at the start of the 1260 day count... That is the WT being removed... Or I should say that that is the moment the publications stop.

If the trumpet blasts occur first, then the seals are opened, the first four trumpet blasts can be Gods judgement on his own holy place during the start of the 2300 days leading up before the constant feature is removed. Then the constant feature is removed.

I know when the final beast is created in chapter 13 Rev, Satan is seen standing on the sea... but either way it shows that it is Michael who throws him out and not our enthroned king yet.... And that Satan finds the women already fled...

If jesus is then given his crown at the 7th trumpet just before the end of the 1260 days, that would start the seals opening, then he can pour out the holy spirit at seal 5 and bring the holy place into it&#39;s right condition. Then the 6th seal is at the end of the 1290 days where the slaves are killed, 45 days before armegeddon.

1st trumpet= Hail/fire/blood/3rd died

Isa 28:2-4 "Like a thunderous storm of hail, a destructive storm, like a thunderous storm of powerful flooding waters, he will certainly do a casting down to the earth with force."
It appears the trumpet blasts are indicative of Jehovah&#39;s judgment on his own people. (28:14-19)

2nd trumpet= Mountain like fire hurled into sea/3rd died
Duet 4:11, "So you people came near and stood at the base of the mountain and the mountain was burning with fire up to midheaven."
It would appear this "Mountain like fire" Represents his organization just as his people along with Moses stood under the mountain burning like fire in the wilderness.

3rd trumpet= Star fell "Wormwood"/fell on 3rd/many died

Jer 23:15, "Therefore this is what Jehovah of armies has said against the prophets: "Here I am making them eat wormwood, and I will give them poisoned water to drink. For from the prophets of Jerusalem apostasy has gone forth to all the land."
This shows the man of lawlessness, 2Th 2:3 "The apostasy comes first." Which intern causes some of the stars to fall as we find at Dan 8:10, Dan11:30b!

4th trumpet= 3rd of sun smitten and moon sackcloth/3rd light

1st=Woe to those on earth

5th trumpet= Star falls key of abyss/locusts/torment 5 months
This of course is indeed Satan&#39;s ouster from heaven, and of course before Jesus is enthroned.
Ps 105:34 Locusts to torment his people
If the locusts are allowed to torment those who do not have the seal after the sealing has taken place, why would they bother? There doomed anyways. If ch. 9 of Rev is speaking of <span style="color:#8b0000">"those that do not have the seal of God on their foreheads." What if these are simply all of Gods followers that have not been sealed, because the sealing hasn&#39;t occurred yet.
</span>

6th trumpet= Untie four angles/3rd men killed
MT 24:31 "Chosen ones gathered."


Little scroll / This little scroll parallels Eze. 3:2 where he also had a judgement on Gods house.
The sacred secret of God declared to slaves brought to finish.
Eph 1:8-15 "Sacred secret" at full limit of appointed times
This no doubt is the moment that the sacred secret is brought into high gear in prophesying in sackcloth.

Sanctuary measured/trampled 42 months/After prophesying ends wild beast kills them.
Rev 11:3 It appears during this time of trampling the witnesses will be prophesying in sackcloth showing the work will continue after the constant feature is removed. There is nothing in prophecy to say these are two literal men. Just thought I would add that.

After three and half days Spirit of life enters them/great earthquake

2nd=Second woe pasts

Rev 10:7 "in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel when he is about to blow his trumpet the sacred secret of God according to the good news which he declared to his own slaves the prophets is indeed brought to a finish."

7th trumpet= Jesus given rulership/Kingdom of world did become kingdom of Christ/Dead judged/Earthquake
Only after all these things is Jesus given kingdom which here shows of course is after the constant feature is removed.
Temple opened in heaven/Earthquake and hail.

[b][b]&#39;Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.&#39;</span></span></span></span></span>


Revelation has to match the chronology of Daniel. Although Rev. gives us the occurrences Daniel gives us the time from the constant features removal till armageddon witch is 1335 days...


There is a major problem with the WT understanding, and the understanding that the seals come first.

It&#39;s Rev. 13:1 "And it stood still upon the sand of the sea." This is Satan. Now if this is after he is ousted and Jesus has begun his ride, and the women has fled into the wilderness, there&#39;s a problem. He creates the beast that&#39;s suppose to remove the constant feature. How can the constant feature be removed for 1260 days if the beast that removes it hasn&#39;t even been created yet? That&#39;s the chicken before the egg...

If the beginning of Chapter 13 of Rev. is meant to occur before his ouster then he creates the 8th king that then goes off to bring the WT down.

The chronology of events must be fluent....

I look forward to anyone&#39;s response.

NewWorld

[sir_chan]

Dear Friends,

Here are scriptures taken from the Aramaic identifying the abyss:

One other very interesting point I discovered in the Aramaic, concerns the beast of Revelation 17. This seems to be the key to unlocking the identity of the beast of Revelation 17. Many Greek translations render the source of this beast as abyss, but the Aramaic says it like this:

Revelation 17:8 – The creature that you saw was and is not and is going to come up from the sea and go to destruction. And those living on the earth will wonder, whose names are not written in the Scroll of Life from the foundations of the world, when they see the creature that was and is not and approaches.

There is only one beast that comes out of the sea:

Revelation 13:1-2 – And I stood on the sand of the sea, And I saw a beast coming up from the sea that had ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns, ten diadems, and on his head, the name of blasphemy.

And the beast that I saw……And the dragon have him his own power and his throne and great authority.

The second beast of Revelation 13:11 comes from the earth:

And I saw another beast coming up from the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and he was speaking as the dragon.

The sea is the source of the beast mentioned in Revelation 17, which sources it back to the first beast of Revelation 13.

The abyss, however, is the location of the confinement of the demons who will be released at the fifth trumpet so that Satan can harm his own.

What insanity and retribution on those who take the mark of the beast!

Love,

Steadfast[/b]

Steadfast, what does your Aramaic research show as regards Rev 11:7?

It is very important to determine whether Rev 11:7 is referring to the Beast coming out of the Sea or the Abyss. Since they are different beasts. <blockquote>RE 11:7 ".　.　.And when they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss[sea?] will make war with them and conquer them and kill them.　.　."

</blockquote>

For if it is actually meant to be the sea, then the reasoning point of the beast coming out of the abyss in 1918 and then in 1945 is incorrect and cannot be used as historical evidence against the 1914 doctrine. This would support the current understanding of the WTS.

If it refers to the same beast coming out of the Abyss at Rev 17:8 then the historical evidence can be used that the beast could not have come out on two seperate occasions. And thus shows that the current understanding cannot be correct.
<blockquote>RE 17:8 ".　.　.The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction.　.　."

</blockquote>So which one is it supposed to be at Rev 11:7?

Does the beast come out of the Abyss which really means sea, or does it come out of the Abyss and is the same beast found at Rev 17:8?




</span></span>

[NewWorld]

The locusts persecute those not having the mark of God because[/b]

I would be careful there. It does not say that the locust "persecute" anyone. They are allowed to torment those who do not have the seal (indicative that the sealing has already taken place.) Elsewhere in the scriptures people who do not like the message of God are described as being tormented by it.

watchman
[/b]

watchman, I see a potential problem with this.

If the locusts are allowed to torment those who do not have the seal after the sealing has taken place, why would they bother? There doomed anyways. If ch. 9 of Rev is speaking of "those that do not have the seal of God on their foreheads." What if these are simply all of Gods followers that have not been sealed, because the sealing hasn&#39;t occurred yet?

NewWorld

[Steadfast]

Dear Sir Chan,

The Aramaic says:

Revelation 11:7 - And when they have completed their testimony, the beast of prey who came up from the sea will wage war with them and will conquer them and will kill them.

Love,

Steadfast

[Utuna]

-----------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[NewWorld]

where the slaves are killed, 45 days before armegeddon.

NewWorld[/b]
</span>
[/b][/quote]

It appears to me that the green highlighted sentences are still my own. I don&#39;t see any new additions to these writings... :Yahoo_33:

<div class=\'quotetop\'>QUOTE(Utuna)</div><div class=\'quotemain\'>Dear NewWorld,

I think that your reasoning is good, excepted for the chronology regarding the seals.

I&#39;ve changed the color of your text : red for what I don&#39;t agree, green for personal remarks. The rest is good according to me.

The constant feature being removed and the holy place brought into its right condition are not the same. The first is an earthly organization (external courtyards, Rv11:2), the WT and the second is the sanctuary, the holy place for which Jesus has come and claimed for himself. Once those worshipping in it (11:1) are sealed, they receive their assignment under the shape of the creation of the two witnesses class (11:3). If the two witnesses are dressed in sackcloth, it means that they&#39;re mourning the fall of the earthly Jerusalem, the WT.[/b][/quote]

O yes, the constant feature being removed is the WT. I like to describe it as the publications ceasing production. Then of course once the holy place is brought into its right condition this is spiritual and we can find these time periods at Da. 8:13-14 and Rev. 12:6. As for the two witnessing in sackcloth, at this moment I&#39;m not sure I can attest to that time frame for after the sealing there is no need of mourning. I think it possible the preaching in sackcloth occurs for 1260 day after the constant feature is removed and before the holy place is brought into it&#39;s right condition. There is indeed a witness given to the world. Robert king describes it as the "Reports that will disturb him" (The 8th king) -Dan. 11:44-

<div class=\'quotetop\'>QUOTE(Utuna)</div><div class=\'quotemain\'>Yes, Jesus receives his kingdom only after the 7th trumpet, at the end of the 1290 days. Please read :

"And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: "The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever." - (Rv11:15)[/b][/quote]

Well here again Brother, If you feel that the 7 seals came before the trumpet blasts then you would have to say the first seal is Jesus receiving his crown.

By saying Jesus receives his crown at the 7th trumpet blasts supports my modest theory that at that point is the opening of the first seal in which our enthroned king begins his ride.

<div class=\'quotetop\'>QUOTE(Utuna)</div><div class=\'quotemain\'>The period during which the 8^th king/beast with lamb horns/little horn reigns alone (1290->1335) corresponds with the wedding of the Lamb with the whole of 144 000, then follows Armaguedon at the end of the 1335 days. The 42 months during which the first beast of Rv has the authority corresponds with the 1260 days given to the two witnesses for their assignment. Once, their power is dashed, the first beast gives its authority to the second beast/8th king whose kingship lasts one hour only (Rv17:11, 12). This latter is the one described in Dn12:45.[/b][/quote]

Ok, let me see.... "The period during which the 8^th king/beast with lamb horns/little horn reigns alone (1290->1335)" This can not be so, for it is exactly that little horn that is brought out of the sea by Satan, that same beast that the two horned beast creates that removes the constant feature at the beginning of the 1260 days. So the 8th king must be in power at least more then 1335 days in order to bring down the WT.

"corresponds with the wedding of the Lamb with the whole of 144 000, then follows Armageddon at the end of the 1335 days." I personally believe this is correct and occurs between the moment the holy place is brought into its right condition after 1260 days and the planting of the disgusting thing at 1290 when those faithful witnesses are killed.

"Once, their power is dashed, the first beast gives its authority to the second beast/8th king whose kingship lasts one hour only (Rv17:11, 12). This latter is the one described in Dn12:45." <span style="color:#000000">Now you know that Robert says that this 8th king is given its power at the very beginning of the GT. That the sword stroke of the first beast brings about it giving its power to the 8th king, and not till then does it remove the constant feature...

You probably also know that Robert says that Jesus is already enthroned throughout the trumpet blasts and that the sealing had already occurred...

It seems here we have three theories...



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Utuna)</div>
As for the seals and the trumpets, I think they symbolize the same events from different standpoints and time periods. The 6th seal = the fourth first trumpets because both end up with the fall of Satan (judgment upon Satan in heaven, 6:13 = 8:10-12, then is cried out "Woe to the earth" = Rv12:12). Interestingly, the star in 8:10 seems to be the same than in 9:1. The fifth trumpet then just explains what the fallen star is going to do. In the same vein, 7:1-2 looks like the same than 9:14, it means that they may be contemporaneaous.

The silence after the 7^th seals (8:1) may well represent the sealed/deafened 7 thunders in 10:4. It happens just before Jesus is enthroned and appoints the two witnesses class.[/b]

You know what? That&#39;s very possible!!! This is just after the constant feature is removed and if you read on he is given a scroll to eat. That could very well be the scroll in which has the seals. And it is at that point there opened.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Utuna)</div>
We might see successive events because it&#39;s written the one after the other while thay might be concomitants in reality.

Now, I&#39;m going to check your colored theory. Please, check mine as well in case I made errors.[/b]


I still Brother have yet had anyone able to dispute the chronology that the seven trumpets are first then the seals. That Jesus is enthroned at the 7th seal "which you agree," but if you feel the first seal is opened before this then there is error.

That if the locusts are allowed to torment those who do not have the seal after the sealing has taken place, why would they bother? There doomed anyways. If ch. 9 of Rev is speaking of "those that do not have the seal of God on their foreheads." What if these are simply all of Gods followers that have not been sealed, because the sealing hasn&#39;t occurred yet?

That in Rev. 12 Satan is thrown out and goes after the women that has already fled into wilderness for 1260 days but that in ch 13 he is seen creating the very 8th king that is suppose to remove her...

So far only my chronology fits the structure of Revelation and Daniel...

I hope for the truth, not to be right. I write this in that hopes if I&#39;m wrong please someone help, but as of yet over and over its the only explanation in which there are no contradictions...

Agape,

NewWorld

[Utuna]

Dear NewWorld,

"And I got to hear a certain holy one speaking, and another holy one proceeded to say to the particular one who was speaking: "How long will the vision be of the constant [feature] and of the transgression causing desolation, to make both [the] holy place and [the] army things to trample on?" So he said to me: "Until two thousand three hundred evenings [and] mornings; and [the] holy place will certainly be brought into its right condition. Then it came about " - (Dn8:13-15)

The constant feature and the transgression will cohabit during a certain time (during the GT, (0->3.5)?), then the holy place and the army thing will be trampled on (because of the transgression?).

The 2 300 mornings and evenings are in fact 1 150 days because the constant feature is made up with two sacrifices per day. Our Watchman is correct regarding this issue. Once the 1 150 days are over, the WT is trampled on, but the sanctuary is claimed by Jesus because it&#39;s now his property. He&#39;ll only be enthroned king when the 7^th trumpet is blown, just as his two inspections of the earthly temple occured before his death at the stake.

The little horn comes from first beast (Dn8:8-9), rules the second beast, but is not the first one of Rv. The first beast (Rv) is the fourth beast of Dn ruled by the ten horns (made up with the three previous ones). Later, the same beast with the little horn appears (Dn8:9), it is the second beast with lamb horns (Rv). The first beast of Rv comes from the abyss, the second one comes from the earth (ancient earth?, false prophet? 21:1) The second beast comes from the first one, from Satan&#39;s kingdom (as its False prophet?).

As for the sackcloths, don&#39;t forget that the real temple will only be finished after the 7th trumpet, when the ark of the covenant is brought forward (11:19). From this moment on, the spiritual temple is completed and Jesus receives his kingdom.

Yes, the green coloured sentences are good according to me. I just wanted to add a few commentaries.

-----------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[NewWorld]

Dear NewWorld,

"And I got to hear a certain holy one speaking, and another holy one proceeded to say to the particular one who was speaking: "How long will the vision be of the constant [feature] and of the transgression causing desolation, to make both [the] holy place and [the] army things to trample on?" So he said to me: "Until two thousand three hundred evenings [and] mornings; and [the] holy place will certainly be brought into its right condition. Then it came about " - (Dn8:13-15)

The constant feature and the transgression will cohabit during a certain time (during the GT, (0->3.5)?), then the holy place and the army thing will be trampled on (because of the transgression?).[/b]

Very good!!! You know that&#39;s exactly what I&#39;ve been saying. That very scripture is what is at the bottom of every one of my posts. That is the very scripture that first brought me into this forum, because as you may know, Robert thinks "respectfully" that this period of time is 1150 days. The "evenings and mornings" being code for counting each, but as said I think the creative days show us otherwise. "an evening and a morning, a first day"..

Your beginning to see what I&#39;ve been saying. This 2300 days start in which we see the transgression. Then 1040 days later the constant feature is removed...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Utuna)</div>
The 2 300 mornings and evenings are in fact 1 150 days because the constant feature is made up with two sacrifices per day. Our Watchman is correct regarding this issue. Once the 1 150 days are over, the WT is trampled on, but the sanctuary is claimed by Jesus because it&#39;s now his property. He&#39;ll only be enthroned king when the 7^th trumpet is blown, just as his two inspections of the earthly temple occurred before his death at the stake.[/b]

Now see, I was under the understanding that he saw the 1150 days starting after the constant feature is removed. I may have to research this unless he can share... Dan. 8-14 says that this time period ends when the holy place is brought into its right condition. This only happens at the end of the 1260 days.

Now I don&#39;t see anywhere within these scriptures to say anything about these evenings and mornings represent sacrifices... I see nothing to say they are more then evenings and mornings. That would be going beyond the scripture it would seem. I know the constant feature is sacrifices but I dont see the connection between it and these time frames. That&#39;s almost like trying to connect the heaven high tree with the apointed times.

I don&#39;t think there&#39;s any doubt that the sanctuary is claimed the moment the holy place is brought into its right condition. That is the moment the holy spirit is poured out at the end of the 1260 days.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Utuna)</div>
The little horn rules the second beast, not the first. The first beast (Rv) is the fourth beast of Dn ruled by the ten horns (made up with the three previous ones). Later, the same beast with the little horn appears (Dn), it is the second beast with lamb horns (Rv). The first beast of Rv comes from the abyss, the second one comes from the earth (ancient earth?, false prophet? 21:1) The second beast comes from the first one, from Satan&#39;s kingdom (as its False prophet?).[/b]

Ok, now it&#39;s my turn to fall back on Robert. The beast with the lamb horns is the Anglo-American dual power. Which is already present. The false prophet, this little horn, this image that the lamb horned beast brings to life are all none other then the 8th king, the United Nations. For they will be saying, they are the road to peace for man...

If I&#39;m not mistaken, that is Roberts stand and so far I&#39;m with him on that...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Utuna)</div>
As for the sackcloths, don&#39;t forget that the real temple will only be finished after the 7th trumpet, when the ark of the covenant is brought forward (11:19). From this moment on, the spiritual temple is completed and Jesus receives his kingdom.[/b]

Right, so the witnesses mourn in sackcloth while they do not have the master. This is during the 1260 days. Then Jesus seals them...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Utuna)</div>
Yes, the green coloured sentences are good according to me. I just wanted to add a few commentaries.[/b]

I guess I didn&#39;t see any commentary. I will have to read back...

I have to thank you Brother.... So few would have the ability or the desire to discuss these subjects with me. It allows me to see your views and temper my own so that hopefully we come into one understanding. One face to sharpen another...

Agape,

NewWorld

[FutureMan]

<div class='quotemain'>Dear NewWorld,

"And I got to hear a certain holy one speaking, and another holy one proceeded to say to the particular one who was speaking: "How long will the vision be of the constant [feature] and of the transgression causing desolation, to make both [the] holy place and [the] army things to trample on?" So he said to me: "Until two thousand three hundred evenings [and] mornings; and [the] holy place will certainly be brought into its right condition. Then it came about " - (Dn8:13-15)

The constant feature and the transgression will cohabit during a certain time (during the GT, (0->3.5)?), then the holy place and the army thing will be trampled on (because of the transgression?).[/b]

Very good!!! You know that&#39;s exactly what I&#39;ve been saying. That very scripture is what is at the bottom of every one of my posts. That is the very scripture that first brought me into this forum, because as you may know, Robert thinks "respectfully" that this period of time is 1150 days. The "evenings and mornings" being code for counting each, but as said I think the creative days show us otherwise. "an evening and a morning, a first day"..

Your beginning to see what I&#39;ve been saying. This 2300 days start in which we see the transgression. Then 1040 days later the constant feature is removed...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Utuna)</div>
The 2 300 mornings and evenings are in fact 1 150 days because the constant feature is made up with two sacrifices per day. Our Watchman is correct regarding this issue. Once the 1 150 days are over, the WT is trampled on, but the sanctuary is claimed by Jesus because it&#39;s now his property. He&#39;ll only be enthroned king when the 7^th trumpet is blown, just as his two inspections of the earthly temple occurred before his death at the stake.[/b]

Now see, I was under the understanding that he saw the 1150 days starting after the constant feature is removed. I may have to research this unless he can share... Dan. 8-14 says that this time period ends when the holy place is brought into its right condition. This only happens at the end of the 1260 days.

Now I don&#39;t see anywhere within these scriptures to say anything about these evenings and mornings represent sacrifices... I see nothing to say they are more then evenings and mornings. That would be going beyond the scripture it would seem. I know the constant feature is sacrifices but I dont see the connection between it and these time frames. That&#39;s almost like trying to connect the heaven high tree with the apointed times.

I don&#39;t think there&#39;s any doubt that the sanctuary is claimed the moment the holy place is brought into its right condition. That is the moment the holy spirit is poured out at the end of the 1260 days.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Utuna)</div>
The little horn rules the second beast, not the first. The first beast (Rv) is the fourth beast of Dn ruled by the ten horns (made up with the three previous ones). Later, the same beast with the little horn appears (Dn), it is the second beast with lamb horns (Rv). The first beast of Rv comes from the abyss, the second one comes from the earth (ancient earth?, false prophet? 21:1) The second beast comes from the first one, from Satan&#39;s kingdom (as its False prophet?).[/b]

Ok, now it&#39;s my turn to fall back on Robert. The beast with the lamb horns is the Anglo-American dual power. Which is already present. The false prophet, this little horn, this image that the lamb horned beast brings to life are all none other then the 8th king, the United Nations. For they will be saying, they are the road to peace for man...

If I&#39;m not mistaken, that is Roberts stand and so far I&#39;m with him on that...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Utuna)</div>
As for the sackcloths, don&#39;t forget that the real temple will only be finished after the 7th trumpet, when the ark of the covenant is brought forward (11:19). From this moment on, the spiritual temple is completed and Jesus receives his kingdom.[/b]

Right, so the witnesses mourn in sackcloth while they do not have the master. This is during the 1260 days. Then Jesus seals them...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Utuna)</div>
Yes, the green coloured sentences are good according to me. I just wanted to add a few commentaries.[/b]

I guess I didn&#39;t see any commentary. I will have to read back...

I have to thank you Brother.... So few would have the ability or the desire to discuss these subjects with me. It allows me to see your views and temper my own so that hopefully we come into one understanding. One face to sharpen another...

Agape,

NewWorld
[/b][/quote]

There is only one problem with calculating 2300 evenings and mornings, and that is that the morning is actually the start of a new day. So we need to take that into account when calculating the 1150 days.
The scriptures both in the creation account in Genesis and this one in daniel starts of with an evening and the followed by the morning. That is the order of events.

"And I got to hear a certain holy one speaking, and another holy one proceeded to say to the particular one who was speaking: "How long will the vision be of the constant [feature] and of the transgression causing desolation, to make both [the] holy place and [the] army things to trample on?" So he said to me: "Until two thousand three hundred evenings [and] mornings; and [the] holy place will certainly be brought into its right condition. Then it came about " - (Dn8:13-15) [quote].

Just my thought from FutureMan.

[NewWorld]

Very good!!! You know that&#39;s exactly what I&#39;ve been saying. That very scripture is what is at the bottom of every one of my posts. That is the very scripture that first brought me into this forum, because as you may know, Robert thinks "respectfully" that this period of time is 1150 days. The "evenings and mornings" being code for counting each, but as said I think the creative days show us otherwise. "an evening and a morning, a first day"..

Agape,

NewWorld[/b]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FutureMan)</div>
There is only one problem with calculating 2300 evenings and mornings, and that is that the morning is actually the start of a new day. So we need to take that into account when calculating the 1150 days.
The scriptures both in the creation account in Genesis and this one in daniel starts of with an evening and the followed by the morning. That is the order of events.

Just my thought from FutureMan.[/b]

Thank you for your thoughts FutureMan... I enjoy your insight.

I believe I used that order of events. Did I miss something? Are you saying that an evening till a morning is shorter then a day?

In the creation accounts we read at Gen 1:5 "<span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="color:#8b0000">"Until two thousand three hundred evenings [and] mornings; and [the] holy place will certainly be brought into its right condition."</span></span></span>cause this is the very reason I entered this forum in the beginning. I feel pretty strong about this one... but always still listening if someone can share more, but you gotta see the simplicity allowing scripture to interpret itself...

NewWorld

[Utuna]

Dear NewWorld,

You say :

"Your beginning to see what I&#39;ve been saying. This 2300 days start in which we see the transgression. Then 1040 days later the constant feature is removed..."

May be the period needed to realize that there&#39;s really a transgression is between 1260 first days (1260=2520:2), 1150 and 1040 days ??????? I acknowledge, I don&#39;t know.

You say:

"Ok, now it&#39;s my turn to fall back on Robert. The beast with the lamb horns is the Anglo-American dual power. Which is already present. The false prophet, this little horn, this image that the lamb horned beast brings to life are all none other then the 8th king, the United Nations. For they will be saying, they are the road to peace for man..."

I&#39;d rather say that the UNO is the male of the goats of Dn8:8, the four horns that sprout later (after the start of GT??) are the 4 beasts (lion, bear, leopard, beast), the three first will unite their forces with the fourth one to create a fourth huge beast, with ten horns, different enough from the 4 previous ones to be identified as another beast (Rv13:1, 17:7-8). But one of the four first horns will get stronger and will humiliate the three other kings and retrieve their kingdom, becoming a fifth beast (in fact, it&#39;s the fourth beast with 10 horns but with another king), but totally different because it&#39;s power comes from Satan.

You say:

"Right, so the witnesses mourn in sackcloth while they do not have the master. This is during the 1260 days. Then Jesus seals them..."

Please compare with :

"At this Jesus said to them: "The friends of the bridegroom have no reason to mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them, do they? But days will come when the bridegroom will be taken away from them, and then they will fast." - (Mat9:15)

If the two witnesses are able to perform powerful signs, I think that it is because they&#39;re sealed, they have God&#39;s Holy Spirit. Nevertheless, the bridegroom will be in the desert during their earthly minister, waiting for them... Isn&#39;t it ?

If I made error, please correct them !

-----------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[FutureMan]

<div class='quotemain'>Very good!!! You know that&#39;s exactly what I&#39;ve been saying. That very scripture is what is at the bottom of every one of my posts. That is the very scripture that first brought me into this forum, because as you may know, Robert thinks "respectfully" that this period of time is 1150 days. The "evenings and mornings" being code for counting each, but as said I think the creative days show us otherwise. "an evening and a morning, a first day"..

Agape,

NewWorld[/b]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FutureMan)</div>
There is only one problem with calculating 2300 evenings and mornings, and that is that the morning is actually the start of a new day. So we need to take that into account when calculating the 1150 days.
The scriptures both in the creation account in Genesis and this one in daniel starts of with an evening and the followed by the morning. That is the order of events.

Just my thought from FutureMan.[/b]

Thank you for your thoughts FutureMan... I enjoy your insight.

I believe I used that order of events. Did I miss something? Are you saying that an evening till a morning is shorter then a day?

In the creation accounts we read at Gen 1:5 "<span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="color:#8b0000">"Until two thousand three hundred evenings [and] mornings; and [the] holy place will certainly be brought into its right condition."</span></span></span>cause this is the very reason I entered this forum in the beginning. I feel pretty strong about this one... but always still listening if someone can share more, but you gotta see the simplicity allowing scripture to interpret itself...

NewWorld



[/b][/quote]

Perhaps if say the evening starts at 6.00 pm and the morning is counted as 6.00 am than that would be 12 hours would it not.

But what puzzled me in Genesis 1:3 was the fact the the first day actually started in the morning and all the previous events for Light to come to be and a division between light and darkness was not counted as the first day. It appears to me that the first day did actually start in the morning. And then went into the division between the waters. Of course going by this then that would mean that Adam and Eve were actually created on the fifth day and not in the sixth.
That would put a spanner in the works wouldn&#39;t it now?

From FutureMan.

[FutureMan]

<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>Very good!!! You know that&#39;s exactly what I&#39;ve been saying. That very scripture is what is at the bottom of every one of my posts. That is the very scripture that first brought me into this forum, because as you may know, Robert thinks "respectfully" that this period of time is 1150 days. The "evenings and mornings" being code for counting each, but as said I think the creative days show us otherwise. "an evening and a morning, a first day"..

Agape,

NewWorld[/b]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(FutureMan)</div>
There is only one problem with calculating 2300 evenings and mornings, and that is that the morning is actually the start of a new day. So we need to take that into account when calculating the 1150 days.
The scriptures both in the creation account in Genesis and this one in daniel starts of with an evening and the followed by the morning. That is the order of events.

Just my thought from FutureMan.[/b]

Thank you for your thoughts FutureMan... I enjoy your insight.

I believe I used that order of events. Did I miss something? Are you saying that an evening till a morning is shorter then a day?

In the creation accounts we read at Gen 1:5 "<span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="color:#8b0000">"Until two thousand three hundred evenings [and] mornings; and [the] holy place will certainly be brought into its right condition."</span></span></span>cause this is the very reason I entered this forum in the beginning. I feel pretty strong about this one... but always still listening if someone can share more, but you gotta see the simplicity allowing scripture to interpret itself...

NewWorld



[/b][/quote]

Perhaps if say the evening starts at 6.00 pm and the morning is counted as 6.00 am than that would be 12 hours would it not.

But what puzzled me in Genesis 1:3 was the fact the the first day actually started in the morning and all the previous events for Light to come to be and a division between light and darkness was not counted as the first day. It appears to me that the first day did actually start in the morning. And then went into the division between the waters. Of course going by this then that would mean that Adam and Eve were actually created on the fifth day and not in the sixth.
That would put a spanner in the works wouldn&#39;t it now?

From FutureMan.
[/b][/quote]

Just let me know when you think that I&#39;m going crazy. :buja_w_oblokach:

[NewWorld]

Perhaps if say the evening starts at 6.00 pm and the morning is counted as 6.00 am than that would be 12 hours would it not.

But what puzzled me in Genesis 1:3 was the fact the the first day actually started in the morning and all the previous events for Light to come to be and a division between light and darkness was not counted as the first day. It appears to me that the first day did actually start in the morning. And then went into the division between the waters. Of course going by this then that would mean that Adam and Eve were actually created on the fifth day and not in the sixth.
That would put a spanner in the works wouldn&#39;t it now?

From FutureMan.[/b]

<span style="font-family:Verdana"><span style="color:#8b0000">Gen 1, "In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth." We can see that this period of time can span billions of years if it wished to.
</span>
<span style="font-family:Verdana">"Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of [the] watery deep;"</span> Here we see we start with darkness.

<span style="font-family:Verdana">"and God&#39;s active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters.And God proceeded to say: "Let light come to be."</span> Then the morning.

<span style="color:#8b0000">Then there came to be light. After that God saw that the light was good, and God brought about a division between the light and the darkness. And God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a first day". </span>A single day did indeed begin with an evening.

Since this account says that there was darness then light, each day would follow just the same. there is no afternoon mentioned or anything like that. It&#39;s just from darkness to light then to darkness then light, and on and on. That is a full day, one full day. It is the only thing that works. The 2300 days have to be 2300 days...


NewWorld

</span></span></span>

[FutureMan]

<div class='quotemain'>Perhaps if say the evening starts at 6.00 pm and the morning is counted as 6.00 am than that would be 12 hours would it not.

But what puzzled me in Genesis 1:3 was the fact the the first day actually started in the morning and all the previous events for Light to come to be and a division between light and darkness was not counted as the first day. It appears to me that the first day did actually start in the morning. And then went into the division between the waters. Of course going by this then that would mean that Adam and Eve were actually created on the fifth day and not in the sixth.
That would put a spanner in the works wouldn&#39;t it now?

From FutureMan.[/b]

<span style="font-family:Verdana"><span style="color:#8b0000">Gen 1, "In [the] beginning God created the heavens and the earth." We can see that this period of time can span billions of years if it wished to.
</span>
<span style="font-family:Verdana">"Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of [the] watery deep;"</span> Here we see we start with darkness.

<span style="font-family:Verdana">"and God&#39;s active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters.And God proceeded to say: "Let light come to be."</span> Then the morning.

<span style="color:#8b0000">Then there came to be light. After that God saw that the light was good, and God brought about a division between the light and the darkness. And God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a first day". </span>A single day did indeed begin with an evening.

Since this account says that there was darness then light, each day would follow just the same. there is no afternoon mentioned or anything like that. It&#39;s just from darkness to light then to darkness then light, and on and on. That is a full day, one full day. It is the only thing that works. The 2300 days have to be 2300 days...


NewWorld

</span></span></span>
[/b][/quote]

You Quoted
"and God&#39;s active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters.And God proceeded to say: "Let light come to be." Then the morning.

But the scriptures say after the division between the light and the darkness and then evening and the morning.

From FutureMan.

[Utuna]

Dear NewWorld,

According to the Jewish calendar, the next day started at dusk till the next dusk the day after (I mean according to our current calendar). If the day was divided in 12 hours, one sacrifice was done from dusk to the morning, and the second sacrifice was done for the rest of the day. But, it&#39;s still one only day.

" So he said to me: "Until two thousand three hundred evenings [and] mornings; and [the] holy place will certainly be brought into its right condition." - (Dn8:13)

"And the thing seen concerning the evening and the morning, which has been said, it is true. And you, for your part, keep secret the vision, because it is yet for many days." - (Dn8:26)

-----------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[NewWorld]

<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>Perhaps if say the evening starts at 6.00 pm and the morning is counted as 6.00 am than that would be 12 hours would it not.

But what puzzled me in Genesis 1:3 was the fact the the first day actually started in the morning and all the previous events for Light to come to be and a division between light and darkness was not counted as the first day. It appears to me that the first day did actually start in the morning. And then went into the division between the waters. Of course going by this then that would mean that Adam and Eve were actually created on the fifth day and not in the sixth.
That would put a spanner in the works wouldn&#39;t it now?

From FutureMan.[/b]


<span style="font-family:Arial">-----------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton[/b][/quote]


Ok now, there can only be one evening and one morning in a day. If we cut any of those creative days in half, when would the very next creative day start? Of course the very next evening then morning. If we cut the creative days in half the very next day would have to start with the morning till evening, but it doesn&#39;t. It starts with the following evening. There is the full 24 hours..

By the way, you know we are talking about thousands of years here. Each of these days were most likely 7000 years long. But regardless Jehovah probably used these evening and morning statements in order to translate later Daniel. In which we are discussing right now...

Also, you know we&#39;re trying to crack a sealed book. Think we can?

NewWorld

[FutureMan]

Dear NewWorld,

According to the Jewish calendar, the next day started at dusk till the next dusk the day after (I mean according to our current calendar). If the day was divided in 12 hours, one sacrifice was done from dusk to the morning, and the second sacrifice was done for the rest of the day. But, it&#39;s still one only day.

" So he said to me: "Until two thousand three hundred evenings [and] mornings; and [the] holy place will certainly be brought into its right condition." - (Dn8:13)

"And the thing seen concerning the evening and the morning, which has been said, it is true. And you, for your part, keep secret the vision, because it is yet for many days." - (Dn8:26)

-----------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton[/b]

It is interesting though the reference to evenings and mornings rather than just referring to them as days like the 1290 and 1335 days don&#39;t you think brothers?

I mean why say that way as 2300 evenings and mornings?
Their must be a significance for this.

From FutureMan.

[Utuna]

Dear Futureman,

In reality, I don&#39;t know why the use of such an expression : 2 300 evenings and mornings. Maybe because it has a link with the constant feature. In my French Bibles, it&#39;s called the "daily sacrifice", the "perpetual sacrifice". Maybe the answer lies in the book of Leviticus, just as many other features in the Bible are symbolized by the Jewish feasts.

Nevertheless, many details are given in the apocalyptic books through cryptic expressions.

T&#39;was a good question !

-----------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[NewWorld]

It is interesting though the reference to evenings and mornings rather than just referring to them as days like the 1290 and 1335 days don&#39;t you think brothers?

I mean why say that way as 2300 evenings and mornings?
Their must be a significance for this.

From FutureMan.[/b]

I think you are exactly right... My thoughts are to keep it secret or locked up. I mean after all look at us... Three very inept bible scholars debating on two words.. Look how complex Jehovah&#39;s word is... But how simple it becomes after we see the event fulfilled. Can you imagine the brothers in the first century debating how Jerusalem was to come down and the disgusting thing?

It is my belief that this time period is extremely important though. It&#39;s been my stance so far that this starts the clock, then the 1260 days start 1040 days after the 2300 start. Then the 2300 and the 1260 end on the same day then the 1290 extend 30 days after. then the 1335 is 45 days after that, Armageddon... So it is extremely important. It&#39;s just if it&#39;s sealed, do you think one of knows the truth? If we debated it long enough and came up with all the possible outcomes would we not be able to hit on it even if we didn&#39;t settle on that one? LOL... Ok I just got to complex for myself, never mind.... By the way, I&#39;ve been up all night. Its now almost 10am here in KC... :boom01:

NewWorld Ha...

[NewWorld]

Dear Futureman,

In reality, I don&#39;t know why the use of such an expression : 2 300 evenings and mornings. Maybe because it has a link with the constant feature. In my French Bibles, it&#39;s called the "daily sacrifice", the "perpetual sacrifice". Maybe the answer lies in the book of Leviticus, just as many other features in the Bible are symbolized by the Jewish feasts.

Nevertheless, many details are given in the apocalyptic books through cryptic expressions.

T&#39;was a good question ![/b]

Yes, you are exactly right... It is tied to the constant feature for it says clearly in Dan. 8:13-14 that this is the time period that the transgression comes to light and some of the army and some of the stars fall from the congregation at Dan. 8:9-12. This could be the man of lawlessness being revealed... If this is a period of time before the constant feature is removed then it ends when the holy place is brought into right condition then this period of time can only be 1040 days...

But still there can only be one evening and one morning in a day. If we cut any of those creative days in half, when would the very next creative day start? Of course the very next evening then morning. If we cut the creative days in half the very next day would have to start with the morning till evening, but it doesn&#39;t. It starts with the following evening. There is the full 24 hours..

NewWorld

[FutureMan]

<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>Perhaps if say the evening starts at 6.00 pm and the morning is counted as 6.00 am than that would be 12 hours would it not.

But what puzzled me in Genesis 1:3 was the fact the the first day actually started in the morning and all the previous events for Light to come to be and a division between light and darkness was not counted as the first day. It appears to me that the first day did actually start in the morning. And then went into the division between the waters. Of course going by this then that would mean that Adam and Eve were actually created on the fifth day and not in the sixth.
That would put a spanner in the works wouldn&#39;t it now?

From FutureMan.[/b]


<span style="font-family:Arial">-----------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton[/b][/quote]


Ok now, there can only be one evening and one morning in a day. If we cut any of those creative days in half, when would the very next creative day start? Of course the very next evening then morning. If we cut the creative days in half the very next day would have to start with the morning till evening, but it doesn&#39;t. It starts with the following evening. There is the full 24 hours..

By the way, you know we are talking about thousands of years here. Each of these days were most likely 7000 years long. But regardless Jehovah probably used these evening and morning statements in order to translate later Daniel. In which we are discussing right now...

Also, you know we&#39;re trying to crack a sealed book. Think we can?

NewWorld




[/b][/quote]

I&#39;m very much aware NewWorld, that each creative day would be at least 7000 years as is the custom by the Watchtowers society&#39;s understanding. But by my understanding pehaps each day could be many thousands of years longer than that in varying lengths, but that is another debate for another time.

I&#39;m just showing here how when it comes to interpreting dates and times and length of days in the Bible it&#39;s not so simple now is it?

From FutureMan.

[NewWorld]

Eww your right, that brings up a whole other subject....lol

I probably shouldn&#39;t say it but I can&#39;t help myself. If the creative days were not 7000 years long there is no way to know where in the stream of time we are. The end of this system could still be thousands of years off. If you take away 1914 the only date connecting us to the bible is 1975.... ;)

NewWorld

[FutureMan]

<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>Perhaps if say the evening starts at 6.00 pm and the morning is counted as 6.00 am than that would be 12 hours would it not.

But what puzzled me in Genesis 1:3 was the fact the the first day actually started in the morning and all the previous events for Light to come to be and a division between light and darkness was not counted as the first day. It appears to me that the first day did actually start in the morning. And then went into the division between the waters. Of course going by this then that would mean that Adam and Eve were actually created on the fifth day and not in the sixth.
That would put a spanner in the works wouldn&#39;t it now?

From FutureMan.[/b]


<span style="font-family:Arial">-----------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton[/b][/quote]


Ok now, there can only be one evening and one morning in a day. If we cut any of those creative days in half, when would the very next creative day start? Of course the very next evening then morning. If we cut the creative days in half the very next day would have to start with the morning till evening, but it doesn&#39;t. It starts with the following evening. There is the full 24 hours..

By the way, you know we are talking about thousands of years here. Each of these days were most likely 7000 years long. But regardless Jehovah probably used these evening and morning statements in order to translate later Daniel. In which we are discussing right now...

Also, you know we&#39;re trying to crack a sealed book. Think we can?

NewWorld




[/b][/quote]

I&#39;m very much aware NewWorld, that each creative day would be at least 7000 years as is the custom by the Watchtowers society&#39;s understanding. But by my understanding pehaps each day could be many thousands of years longer than that in varying lengths, but that is another debate for another time.

I&#39;m just showing here how when it comes to interpreting dates and times and length of days in the Bible it&#39;s not so simple now is it?

From FutureMan.
[/b][/quote]

By the way it&#39;s 2:16 am here in Australia way past my bed time I&#39;ll continues this discussion with yous another time so bye for now.

From FutureMan.

[Utuna]

-----------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[NewWorld]

I love the fact we are all on separate continents... You couldn&#39;t have a better evenly spread group! That&#39;s crazy... We are as far from each other as possible before going to the poles...

Kansas City is in the center of America... Then France to Australia... and I know we have other Continent&#39;s here... Chime in with where you are from everyone...

lol... Yea, I new we were starting something by bringing up another subject...lol I as well have written on these boards as to the subject of 1975... but no doubt we shall discuss it at another convenience. :blush:

NewWorld

lol... Utuna, you know it&#39;s -3f here... Brrrr

[Utuna]

Dear NewWorld and Futureman,

I really appreciate your help and your joyful presence on this forum. It&#39;s really faith-strengthening to have such kinds of discussions.

May be we&#39;re wrong, may be we&#39;re right. Whatever the outcome, a huge quantity of spiritual information is dug out and is very useful for us and everyone on this forum.

Que notre Père céleste en soit remercié, pour toujours et à jamais !

<div align="center">---------------------------------------------------
</div>
Sorry NW, I&#39;ll have to translante the Farenheit degrees in Celsius because I don&#39;t understand what stands for -3f. Your homeworks for tonight : Here, the temperature is about +5°C. lol

-----------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[NewWorld]

I agree with you Utuna...

You know brother King is reading along. He doesn&#39;t have to sign in to watch the stream trickle along. I would, it&#39;s kinda like throwing some leaves into the passing water and watching them float gently down. Watching to see if they get stuck, or stay above the service or sink...lol Such are the ideas once planted...

However to this there is no doubt, once we see these events unfold, we will be saying AH HA! This board is going to light up like a tree... Good thing it&#39;s as clean as it is, so that when that day comes no one can respond but us... ;)

NewWorld

PS: Ha....lol I know, I&#39;m not sure what the translation is either... I will have to check... however metric is more accurate, it&#39;s just this country never adopted it... :icon_rolleyes:

PSS: Woe, it&#39;s -19C here....

[Utuna]

Dear NewWorld,

If our Watchman is reading all the lines that we wrote today on different threads, with all the spiritual matter that we&#39;ve dug out, for sure he&#39;s going to spend the whole day scratching his head if he ever wants to follow the thread till our conclusions... lol

Farenheit are like gallons, yard, miles, etc. If you don&#39;t use "mètres", "litres", "mètres carrés" and "kilomètres par heure", I&#39;ll be useless !

-----------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[NewWorld]

Ha... No, he&#39;s probably thinking, (as he has already told me) "I dont see any reason to discuss or to look to much into Daniel because it&#39;s sealed and it is a practice into futility."

So I guess that&#39;s an argument that reading about all our rattlings on would definitely be one of those things to make someone think, "Look at them.. HaHa, they haven&#39;t figured out yet that that cant figure it out." Either that or he&#39;s thinking, "Dang, now I have to rewrite the book again." LOL Doubt that one...

NewWorld

[Utuna]

I think that the book of Daniel is more sealed because our current understanding is wrong than because we don&#39;t have the keys. The keys to decipher it are in the Bible since the start but our current understanding impedes us to find them. We&#39;re not looking for them at the good location. It prooves the cleverness of Satan&#39;s operation of error. That&#39;s why I try to follow my own threads without having on my mind the details of Robert&#39;s reasoning or those of the WT.

As I always said, if you&#39;re looking for something in one room, don&#39;t waste your time looking for hours. Go to another room and you&#39;ll find it there. I&#39;ve proven this reasoning true many times.

I hope Robert hasn&#39;t sent his book to the printing in case we find something interesting... lol

Nevertheless, I&#39;m nothing on this earth and I may well be in error. I acknowledge it.

-----------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[NewWorld]

I agree with you brother, we are very alike... I like how you think outside the box...

You know there have been studies in which they put a group of people in a room, let&#39;s say 10, and they all are in on it except one. Smoke starts to roll under the door, well the 9 were told to sit there and not move, they could look up at it but stay put. That one person who was unawares of what was going on almost every time stayed put to not go against the group... Can you believe that?

So I&#39;ve always kept that in mind, that once we recognize our human tendencies we can brake them when it is of utmost importance that we do so...

I can almost guaranty he&#39;s not interested in discussing these subjects of Daniel with us...lol

NewWorld

[Utuna]

Your allusions to psychology make me think about "cognitive dissonance". Have a look at how it works regarding beliefs. Once you&#39;re convinced about something, you&#39;ll twist the reality or what you read so that it matches your beliefs. The power of the mind is really great, but often at our expense unfortunately.

Ten years ago, I had read a book named "Psychologie des groupes restreints". I would translate it "Psychology of small groups". It shows that our social needs often overcome our personal fears and thoughts. Then, in order to be accepted by others, we keep our differences silent. It&#39;s in fact the main branch of "cognitive dissonance".

If Robert ever keeps thinking that he is right about everything, I regret it bitterly, but he&#39;ll fall in the same trap than the WT, for Satan&#39;s pleasure, no matter the good intentions he had at first. Nevertheless, when I look back at what he&#39;s done till now, I&#39;m sure that Jh will give him the wisdom needed to achieve his task.

-----------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[NewWorld]

Hmm, nice post... That is exactly the subject in psycology in which I had in mind...

There were a lot of social group studies done in American colleges from the 50&#39;s-90&#39;s. I have always tried to keep our human tendencies in mind when moving forward. You can never ever learn anything new if you do not go into a subject completely open minded and able to see all sides without having a preconceived idea of how things should be, and partly that and I saw how set in his ways my Dad was and saw that he got left behind in certain knowledgeable subjects because he felt he already new the answers and I said that I would never be like that.

You know Brother, I have been saying the "Sacred Secret" declared to slaves is brought to a finish before the 7th trumpet. Who knows, this forum could be or may one day be playing a part in that... If the ones invited do not come into the feast, the master of the house may go out and invite those off the street into the meal, "Prophecy". We are prophets...

I think when we beginning again on the subject of the "time of the end" I&#39;ll start it at 75 days before armageddon. It seems to be where we are both on the same page and see if we can work back from there...

If you wanted to start a thread on 1975, then that&#39;s fine as well at your own convenience...

Not sure how long I&#39;ll stay up but, ah who needs sleep...lol

NewWorld

[Utuna]

L&#39;esprit est ardent mais la chair est faible.

My friend, let your body be your master just one day more ! You need to sleep just as I need it. I wouldn&#39;t be able to have discussions as we&#39;ve had today if I had spent 48h without a nap....

Just as your father can&#39;t understand the feelings you have in your guts and in your heart, I might not understand, regarding myself, certains realities about which you have no doubts. God only knows !

Once I have enough arguments regarding what I have in mind, I&#39;ll let you know. I think that 1975 is just a secondary milestone.

You can stay on this forum if you want to continue this discussion with me. I&#39;m glad to talk with you anyway.

-----------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[NewWorld]

"Chacun peut-être temps Témoins de Jéhovah."

In reality Brother, this is a very difficult world in which we live in. I sometimes think to myself I will be lucky to make it. Yet other times it&#39;s as if its incomprehensible the thought that I would not be there. It&#39;s as if my mind already has existed for ever. The thought of ceasing to exist is far more difficult for me to grasp then the thought of living for ever. I simply cannot grasp the idea of ceasing to exist for ever...

I can&#39;t imagine all the challenges in this world each one of us have had to overcome. One single persons heart wrenching experiences can reach to the heavens... I look out my window right now on the world, and I have to say I see a world in which Jesus spoke of in,

[b]<span style="font-family:Verdana">But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness,betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away. For from these arise those men who slyly work their way into households and lead as their captives weak women loaded down with sins, led by various desires, always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth."

I really think we&#39;re close brother. I can feel it, can&#39;t you? I think the whole world feels it, I really don&#39;t think there&#39;s any doubt about that. I think it&#39;s a very good possibility we could see the transgression this year... However if it&#39;s not to come in my life time, I hope I find a cute sweet little girl to settle down with.... ;)

NewWorld</span></span></span></span>

[NewWorld]

Prophetic paterns, for all those friends out there that cringe at the thought of chronology in the bible. Well it&#39;s just like electricity, if there was no electricity in the new world there would be no life... If we said there was no chronology in the bible we would be lying...


"A prophetic pattern, involves objects and procedures, as found in the case of the tabernacle. The equipment, functions, and sacrifices were a pattern of heavenly realities, "a typical representation and a shadow of the heavenly things."—Heb 8:5; 9:23, 24. (Insight, V2)

All true sources of prophecy stem from Jehovah by means of his holy spirit. Throughout the pages of the bible Jehovah has recorded for us many prophecies that have had there fulfillment and some yet future await his prophetic completion. Today Jehovah has made it possible for true bible students to extrapolate times and seasons to recognize there place within the stream of events. As well Jehovah gives warning of coming cataclysms, sometimes giving the recipients foreknowledge of the time periods to elapse. Such as we find Jehovah making known to Noah a period of 120 years were to elapse before turning his attention to man and destroying the world of that time. (Genesis 6:3) Also we find a decree given to Israel that they were not to enter the promised land for a period of 40 years. (Numbers 14:34)

Many prophecies have multiple fulfillments such as "the disgusting thing that is causing desolation" prophesied by Daniel to occur in the "time of the end" also had fulfillment as Jesus directed those of his time to watch for "the disgusting thing, standing in a holy place." so they may flee and escape the coming destruction upon Jerusalem. (Daniel 9:27; 11:31-35; Mathew 24:15, 16) We find many prophetic patterns throughout the scriptures. One very common pattern we see throughout many major events are the sharing of times allowed to elapse. Let us examine some major events in the bible and see how they parallel each other.

120 thousand living in Nineveh at the time Jonah 4:11
120 men present at Pentecost
2Chronicles 5:12 120 trumpets
120 thousand killed in one day by Remaliah
120 satraps set up by Darius Daniel 6:1
Caleb is 40 when sent with the 12 spies into land of Canaan for 40 days.
40 days Ezekiel lied on his side in prophecy of the, Ezekiel 4:
A mother is to remain unclean 40 days after giving birth. Le. 12:1-8
Goliath challenges Israel 40 days and 40 nights</FONT>
40 days Ezekiel lied on his side in prophecy of the, Ezekiel 4:1-7
for error of people.
40 year period before Jerusalem would be destroyed.
2 Samuel 15:7 Absalom after 40 years asked to go to Hebron to pay vow to Jehovah. (insight Absalom)
Aaron at age 80 serves as high priest for 40 years adding to 120. Exodus 7:7: Numbers 33:39.
Ezekiel 29:1-16 Egypt&#39;s desolation do to last 40 years.
Eli judged Israel for 40 years. 1Samuel 4:18; 3:10-13, 19-21
Gideon 40 year judgeship Judges 8:28-9:5
Ish-boseth begins reign at 40 years 2Samuel 2:8-11
Jehoash king of Judah 40 years from 898 to 859 2Kings 12:1
Jeremiah&#39;s 40 year prophetic service Jeremiah 1:9
A period of 40 years of conflict between Judah and Israel (1Kings 14:30; 15:7, 16)</FONT>1981 12/15 WT It was first in 1895 that some friends of Zion&#39;s Watch Tower suggested that this magazine is identified with "that slave"—"that servant." Mt 24:46

This possibly could be when Jehovah excepted this small group into his fold.

1895+40=1935 The great crowd gathered

1935+40=1975 Ends 6000 years mans history

1975+40=2015 Armageddon

100 cubits plus 20 pillars on one side=120
100 cubits for north side plus 20 pillars=120
Ezah 40 when taking wife
40 spied out land
40 year peace Jud 5:31
40 days after ascension Jesus command to wait for promise helper

This is taken straight from my notes so its a little sloppy.. ;)


I&#39;ve posted this in another area but I thought I woud add it here just for fun... It&#39;s just one of those things that make you think hmm...

<span style="color:#000000">NewWorld

[Utuna]

At first, please write again in English the sentence you tranlated in French. It doesn&#39;t sound French, can&#39;t understand the translation you provided.

"And Jehovah went on to say to him: "Pass through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and you must put a mark on the foreheads of the men that are sighing and groaning over all the detestable things that are being done in the midst of it." - (Ez9:4)

We&#39;re all concerned about what happens in the world. Sometimes, I have tears falling from my eyes when I see the sufferings of this world. My friends usually tell me that I can&#39;t say "no" to others, often neglecting myself in behalf of them. I wish I would hear Jehovah tell his faithful anointed ones "yes, do it at will" to resolve anything that breaks their heart. This time is coming. Each one of us has his role to play in Jehovah&#39;s purpose. He knows us better than we know ourselves. He takes his time to get his servants ready, no matter how many times they relapse (didn&#39;t Moses need 40 years to be ready?). Two years ago, I would never have imagined to be where I am today, for the better thanks to Him. Now, I know why I had to pass through so much sufferings. The same, or maybe less, than those sufferings we may read from the account of brothers and sisters on this forum, writing about the ordeals they had/still have to pass through, even if their opinions might seem at first out of place to us. But, now we know what it is to hit hard the floor and all the efforts it takes just to get back on our knees. We know it and that&#39;s why our place is in the congregations so as to be a loving helping hand for the "dim flaxen wick" - (Is42:3), no matter the nature of our calling. It all begins now and for ever.

I still have to do my personal works before the end of this day. I hope to see you tomorrow (GMT time.... :P )

-----------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[sir_chan]

Dear Sir Chan,

The Aramaic says:

Revelation 11:7 - And when they have completed their testimony, the beast of prey who came up from the sea will wage war with them and will conquer them and will kill them.

Love,

Steadfast[/b]


So then would that mean that all other translations of the bible are incorrect in their translation of these verses? What do you think?

Here is the Greek translation where the word abussos (ab&#39;-us-sos) is used. Perhaps you could look in your Aramaic and see what each one says for each verse. If it says from the sea for each then any attempt to understand Revelations will meet up with frustration as all the other translations use the word Abyss. And since there are beasts that come from the sea and from the Abyss it would change the identity of the beast from the Abyss(inactivity) to the beast from the sea(mankind). Very different meanings don&#39;t you agree. Again what do you think?


Revelation 9:1 (http://biblos.com/revelation/9-1.htm) Καὶ ὁ πέμπτος ἄγγελος ἐσάλπισεν· καὶ εἶδον ἀστέρα ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ πεπτωκότα εἰς τὴν γῆν, καὶ ἐδόθη αὐτῷ ἡ κλεὶς τοῦ φρέατος τῆς ἀβύσσου,
The fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from the sky which had fallen to the earth. The key to the pit of the abyss was given to him.


Revelation 9:2 (http://biblos.com/revelation/9-2.htm) καὶ ἤνοιξεν τὸ φρέαρ τῆς ἀβύσσου, καὶ ἀνέβη καπνὸς ἐκ τοῦ φρέατος ὡς καπνὸς καμίνου μεγάλης, καὶ ἐσκοτώθη ὁ ἥλιος καὶ ὁ ἀὴρ ἐκ τοῦ καπνοῦ τοῦ φρέατος.
He opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke from a burning furnace. The sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke from the pit.


Revelation 9:11 (http://biblos.com/revelation/9-11.htm) ἔχουσιν ἐπ&#39; αὐτῶν βασιλέα τὸν ἄγγελον τῆς ἀβύσσου, ὄνομα αὐτῷ Ἑβραϊστὶ Ἀβαδδὼν καὶ ἐν τῇ Ἑλληνικῇ ὄνομα ἔχει Ἀπολλύων.
They have over them as king the angel of the abyss. His name in Hebrew is "Abaddon," but in Greek, he has the name "Apollyon."


Revelation 11:7 (http://biblos.com/revelation/11-7.htm) καὶ ὅταν τελέσωσιν τὴν μαρτυρίαν αὐτῶν τὸ θηρίον τὸ ἀναβαῖνον ἐκ τῆς ἀβύσσου ποιήσει μετ&#39; αὐτῶν πόλεμον καὶ νικήσει αὐτοὺς καὶ ἀποκτενεῖ αὐτούς.
When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them, and kill them.


Revelation 17:8 (http://biblos.com/revelation/17-8.htm) τὸ θηρίον ὃ εἶδες ἦν καὶ οὐκ ἔστιν καὶ μέλλει ἀναβαίνειν ἐκ τῆς ἀβύσσου καὶ εἰς ἀπώλειαν ὑπάγει, καὶ θαυμασθήσονται οἱ κατοικοῦντες ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, ὧν οὐ γέγραπται τὸ ὄνομα ἐπὶ τὸ βιβλίον τῆς ζωῆς ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου, βλεπόντων τὸ θηρίον ὅτι ἦν καὶ οὐκ ἔστιν καὶ παρέσται
The beast that you saw was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss and to go into destruction. Those who dwell on the earth and whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see that the beast was, and is not, and shall be present.

Revelation 20:1 (http://biblos.com/revelation/20-1.htm) Καὶ εἶδον ἄγγελον καταβαίνοντα ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ἔχοντα τὴν κλεῖν τῆς ἀβύσσου καὶ ἅλυσιν μεγάλην ἐπὶ τὴν χεῖρα αὐτοῦ.
I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.

In order for your Aramaic to be correct it would have to show a consistent rendering of the word that is being translated as sea instead of Abyss. Does it? These 6 verses are the 6 times this form of the word is used. What does your Aramaic version say?

[Steadfast]

Dear Sir Chan,

Here are the renderings for the verses you posted:

Rev. 9:1 – And the fifth angel sounded and I saw a star that fell from heaven on the earth and the key of the pits of the abyss was given to him.

Rev. 9:2 – And smoke went up from the pits, and as the smoke of a large furnace that was heated up. And the sun was darkened and the air also from the smoke of the pits.

Rev. 9:11 – And there was a king over them, the angel of the abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Aramaic, his name is Breaker.

Rev. 20:1 – And I saw another angel that came down from heaven, who had the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.

Question: Who is confined to the abyss?

Rev. 11:7 – And when they have completed their testimony, the beast of prey who came up from the sea will wage war with them and will conquer them and will kill them.

Rev. 13:1 – And I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast of prey coming up from the sea that had ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns, ten diadems, and on his head, the name of blasphemy.

Rev. 13:11 – And I saw another beast of prey coming up from the earth and he had two horns like a lamb and he was speaking as a dragon.

Rev. 17:8 – The beast of prey that you saw, was and is not, and is going to come up from the sea, and go to destruction.

(Revelation 17:11 gives a clue about the beast from the sea: "And the dragon and the beast of prey, that was and is not, even he is the eighth and is one of the seven and goes to destruction." The eighth king is the last world empire…the one world government.)

It&#39;s not my Aramaic. :185: There is very credible research online to show that Aramaic was the original language of the New Testament, and was eventually translated into Greek.

Revelation identifies only two beasts, one from the earth and one from the sea. The abyss is the place where Satan will be confined for 1000 years, and the disobedient angels already are. Those disobedient spirits will be let loose…according the Revelation 9, which brings us right back to the topic of this thread…the locusts.

To sum it up…In my opinion…

The beast from the sea = one world government

The beast from the earth = false prophet

abyss = holding place for disobedient angels and Satan for 1000 years

Love, :Love:

Steadfast

[sir_chan]

Dear Sir Chan,

Here are the renderings for the verses you posted:

Rev. 9:1 – And the fifth angel sounded and I saw a star that fell from heaven on the earth and the key of the pits of the abyss was given to him.

Rev. 9:2 – And smoke went up from the pits, and as the smoke of a large furnace that was heated up. And the sun was darkened and the air also from the smoke of the pits.

Rev. 9:11 – And there was a king over them, the angel of the abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Aramaic, his name is Breaker.

Rev. 20:1 – And I saw another angel that came down from heaven, who had the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.

Question: Who is confined to the abyss?

Rev. 11:7 – And when they have completed their testimony, the beast of prey who came up from the sea will wage war with them and will conquer them and will kill them.

Rev. 13:1 – And I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast of prey coming up from the sea that had ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns, ten diadems, and on his head, the name of blasphemy.

Rev. 13:11 – And I saw another beast of prey coming up from the earth and he had two horns like a lamb and he was speaking as a dragon.

Rev. 17:8 – The beast of prey that you saw, was and is not, and is going to come up from the sea, and go to destruction.

(Revelation 17:11 gives a clue about the beast from the sea: "And the dragon and the beast of prey, that was and is not, even he is the eighth and is one of the seven and goes to destruction." The eighth king is the last world empire…the one world government.)

It&#39;s not my Aramaic. :185: There is very credible research online to show that Aramaic was the original language of the New Testament, and was eventually translated into Greek.

Revelation identifies only two beasts, one from the earth and one from the sea. The abyss is the place where Satan will be confined for 1000 years, and the disobedient angels already are. Those disobedient spirits will be let loose…according the Revelation 9, which brings us right back to the topic of this thread…the locusts.

To sum it up…In my opinion…

The beast from the sea = one world government

The beast from the earth = false prophet

abyss = holding place for disobedient angels and Satan for 1000 years

Love, :Love:

Steadfast[/b]

Hi.

Glad I could help you get back to the original topic, that is always a plus.

Sorry my post isn&#39;t about the locusts though.

This is very interesting to me, the abyss and sea that is, as it does seem to make sense when looked at from the POV that you mention.

The fact that the WTS was teaching the same event to be two different instances on the beast coming out of the abyss proved to me that the current understanding was incorrect. When you mentioned that the verse in Rev 11:7 said sea, i thought I would not be able to use that as a reasoning point.

However, the Aramaic uses sea in both Rev 11:7 & Rev 17:8 which would still show that the current understanding is incorrect. Whether the beast comes out of the sea, or the abyss as all other bibles say, still shows that it is a single event and not two different occurences happening in 1918 and 1945.

This is something for my Reasoning with the Elders post and should be over there but just so happened to be what I was looking for on your post. Thank you for enlightening me.

I had to work on my "cognitive dissonance"(thanks utuna) as I try to always remember there is much I don&#39;t know and to consider the possibility even if it is difficult to do so.

So, about these locusts...

[FutureMan]

<div class='quotemain'>Dear Sir Chan,

Here are the renderings for the verses you posted:

Rev. 9:1 – And the fifth angel sounded and I saw a star that fell from heaven on the earth and the key of the pits of the abyss was given to him.

Rev. 9:2 – And smoke went up from the pits, and as the smoke of a large furnace that was heated up. And the sun was darkened and the air also from the smoke of the pits.

Rev. 9:11 – And there was a king over them, the angel of the abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Aramaic, his name is Breaker.

Rev. 20:1 – And I saw another angel that came down from heaven, who had the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.

Question: Who is confined to the abyss?

Rev. 11:7 – And when they have completed their testimony, the beast of prey who came up from the sea will wage war with them and will conquer them and will kill them.

Rev. 13:1 – And I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast of prey coming up from the sea that had ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns, ten diadems, and on his head, the name of blasphemy.

Rev. 13:11 – And I saw another beast of prey coming up from the earth and he had two horns like a lamb and he was speaking as a dragon.

Rev. 17:8 – The beast of prey that you saw, was and is not, and is going to come up from the sea, and go to destruction.

(Revelation 17:11 gives a clue about the beast from the sea: "And the dragon and the beast of prey, that was and is not, even he is the eighth and is one of the seven and goes to destruction." The eighth king is the last world empire…the one world government.)

It&#39;s not my Aramaic. :185: There is very credible research online to show that Aramaic was the original language of the New Testament, and was eventually translated into Greek.

Revelation identifies only two beasts, one from the earth and one from the sea. The abyss is the place where Satan will be confined for 1000 years, and the disobedient angels already are. Those disobedient spirits will be let loose…according the Revelation 9, which brings us right back to the topic of this thread…the locusts.

To sum it up…In my opinion…

The beast from the sea = one world government

The beast from the earth = false prophet

abyss = holding place for disobedient angels and Satan for 1000 years

Love, :Love:

Steadfast[/b]

Hi.

Glad I could help you get back to the original topic, that is always a plus.

Sorry my post isn&#39;t about the locusts though.

This is very interesting to me, the abyss and sea that is, as it does seem to make sense when looked at from the POV that you mention.

The fact that the WTS was teaching the same event to be two different instances on the beast coming out of the abyss proved to me that the current understanding was incorrect. When you mentioned that the verse in Rev 11:7 said sea, i thought I would not be able to use that as a reasoning point.

However, the Aramaic uses sea in both Rev 11:7 & Rev 17:8 which would still show that the current understanding is incorrect. Whether the beast comes out of the sea, or the abyss as all other bibles say, still shows that it is a single event and not two different occurences happening in 1918 and 1945.

This is something for my Reasoning with the Elders post and should be over there but just so happened to be what I was looking for on your post. Thank you for enlightening me.

I had to work on my "cognitive dissonance"(thanks utuna) as I try to always remember there is much I don&#39;t know and to consider the possibility even if it is difficult to do so.

So, about these locusts...
[/b][/quote]

Hello all my thought is without being adamant about this is that when the wild beast&#39;s head is slaughtered presumably the seventh head, it goes into a state of inactivity (Abyss).
In other words no control over the earth&#39;s population during this time.
What does this mean for the earth, one scenario that I hate to think of , I even shudder to think of is the possible violence and anarchy and economic chaos that might follow during this period of time.
Another scenario is that Jesus Christ by means of God&#39;s Kingdom is now set up, and the seventh head is put out of business for a while and the earth is now in a short time period of a global preaching work such has never been seen before .
During this time no one nation has any control over the earth in any way.
But then Satan himself resurrects the wild beast and gives it great power and authority and it itself becomes the eighth king in opposition to God&#39;s Kingdom which had already being set up.
But when it comes out of it&#39;s state of inactivity then it is seen as coming out of the sea of restless humanity and now has been given great authority to rule by Satan himself.

Just another thought of mine, from FutureMan.

[Utuna]

"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Utuna]

Dear Sir_chan,

You say:

"However, the Aramaic uses sea in both Rev 11:7 & Rev 17:8 which would still show that the current understanding is incorrect. Whether the beast comes out of the sea, or the abyss as all other bibles say, still shows that it is a single event and not two different occurences happening in 1918 and 1945."

What if, at first, the same beast comes from sea in Rv13:1 and from the abyss the second time after having received the deadly blow? The verses related with the second origin (abyss) are talking about the period after the "coming back to life" of the first beast (13:1) that came first from the sea.

Please, what do you think ?

Sorry Futureman, I&#39;ve used the "full edit" option and have changed the adressee of my post. I just got up about 1h ago and my eyes are still glued.... lol

-----------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[FutureMan]

<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>Dear Sir Chan,

Here are the renderings for the verses you posted:

Rev. 9:1 – And the fifth angel sounded and I saw a star that fell from heaven on the earth and the key of the pits of the abyss was given to him.

Rev. 9:2 – And smoke went up from the pits, and as the smoke of a large furnace that was heated up. And the sun was darkened and the air also from the smoke of the pits.

Rev. 9:11 – And there was a king over them, the angel of the abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Aramaic, his name is Breaker.

Rev. 20:1 – And I saw another angel that came down from heaven, who had the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.

Question: Who is confined to the abyss?

Rev. 11:7 – And when they have completed their testimony, the beast of prey who came up from the sea will wage war with them and will conquer them and will kill them.

Rev. 13:1 – And I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast of prey coming up from the sea that had ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns, ten diadems, and on his head, the name of blasphemy.

Rev. 13:11 – And I saw another beast of prey coming up from the earth and he had two horns like a lamb and he was speaking as a dragon.

Rev. 17:8 – The beast of prey that you saw, was and is not, and is going to come up from the sea, and go to destruction.

(Revelation 17:11 gives a clue about the beast from the sea: "And the dragon and the beast of prey, that was and is not, even he is the eighth and is one of the seven and goes to destruction." The eighth king is the last world empire…the one world government.)

It&#39;s not my Aramaic. :185: There is very credible research online to show that Aramaic was the original language of the New Testament, and was eventually translated into Greek.

Revelation identifies only two beasts, one from the earth and one from the sea. The abyss is the place where Satan will be confined for 1000 years, and the disobedient angels already are. Those disobedient spirits will be let loose…according the Revelation 9, which brings us right back to the topic of this thread…the locusts.

To sum it up…In my opinion…

The beast from the sea = one world government

The beast from the earth = false prophet

abyss = holding place for disobedient angels and Satan for 1000 years

Love, :Love:

Steadfast[/b]

Hi.

Glad I could help you get back to the original topic, that is always a plus.

Sorry my post isn&#39;t about the locusts though.

This is very interesting to me, the abyss and sea that is, as it does seem to make sense when looked at from the POV that you mention.

The fact that the WTS was teaching the same event to be two different instances on the beast coming out of the abyss proved to me that the current understanding was incorrect. When you mentioned that the verse in Rev 11:7 said sea, i thought I would not be able to use that as a reasoning point.

However, the Aramaic uses sea in both Rev 11:7 & Rev 17:8 which would still show that the current understanding is incorrect. Whether the beast comes out of the sea, or the abyss as all other bibles say, still shows that it is a single event and not two different occurences happening in 1918 and 1945.

This is something for my Reasoning with the Elders post and should be over there but just so happened to be what I was looking for on your post. Thank you for enlightening me.

I had to work on my "cognitive dissonance"(thanks utuna) as I try to always remember there is much I don&#39;t know and to consider the possibility even if it is difficult to do so.

So, about these locusts...
[/b][/quote]

Hello all my thought is without being adamant about this is that when the wild beast&#39;s head is slaughtered presumably the seventh head, it goes into a state of inactivity (Abyss).
In other words no control over the earth&#39;s population during this time.
What does this mean for the earth, one scenario that I hate to think of , I even shudder to think of is the possible violence and anarchy and economic chaos that might follow during this period of time.
Another scenario is that Jesus Christ by means of God&#39;s Kingdom is now set up, and the seventh head is put out of business for a while and the earth is now in a short time period of a global preaching work such has never been seen before .
During this time no one nation has any control over the earth in any way.
But then Satan himself resurrects the wild beast and gives it great power and authority and it itself becomes the eighth king in opposition to God&#39;s Kingdom which had already being set up.
But when it comes out of it&#39;s state of inactivity then it is seen as coming out of the sea of restless humanity and now has been given great authority to rule by Satan himself.

Just another thought of mine, from FutureMan.
[/b][/quote]

Hello Utuna I believe that is the gist of what I was saying. you actually Quoted someone else there.


From FutureMan.

[Steadfast]

Dear Utuna,

You said: &#39;Where are the original Aramaic texts? Is it possible to read them online ? Why do the Bibles don&#39;t use them instead of the Greek texts ? Are they lost ? The more we use the original texts, the best it is. Isn&#39;t it?&#39;

Me: There are no original texts in Aramaic or Greek...only copies of manuscripts. I had to get into church history to find out what happened and it seems to be this: The Aramaic manuscripts belong to the Eastern Church while the Greek manuscripts were the backbone of the Western Roman Church, also known as the Vatican. A schism developed between these two branches and the manuscripts from the Eastern church are found to have less error and reveal many details only found in Aramaic (called idioms) that get badly translated or mistranslated into the Greek.

Since Jesus spoke Aramaic, it makes sense that his words would be better preserved in his native tongue.

You can go online here to read some of the Aramaic manuscripts translated into English and the information about the original manuscripts being written in Aramaic instead of Greek:

http://www.aramaicpeshitta.com/index.html

Enjoy!

Love,

Steadfast

[sir_chan]

Dear Sir_chan,

You say:

"However, the Aramaic uses sea in both Rev 11:7 & Rev 17:8 which would still show that the current understanding is incorrect. Whether the beast comes out of the sea, or the abyss as all other bibles say, still shows that it is a single event and not two different occurences happening in 1918 and 1945."

What if, at first, the same beast comes from sea in Rv13:1 and from the abyss the second time after having received the deadly blow? The verses related with the second origin (abyss) are talking about the period after the "coming back to life" of the first beast (13:1) that came first from the sea.

Please, what do you think ?

Sorry Futureman, I&#39;ve used the "full edit" option and have changed the adressee of my post. I just got up about 1h ago and my eyes are still glued.... lol

-----------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton[/b]


<div align="left">I completely agree. I think the reason the word Abyss is used in the greek scriptures is simply because it conveys more of a state of inactivity to it. There was no word for Abyss in Hebrew so the Aramaic would obviously refer to the closest word, sea or depth. Both are right, but the Greek gives more depth(nice play on words) to the word, :) literally. </div>
<div align="left">(Revelation 11:1-4) . . .And a reed like a rod was given me as he said: "Get up and measure the temple [sanctuary] of God and the altar and those worshiping in it. 2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary], cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth." 4 These are [symbolized by] the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth.</div>
<div align="left">(Revelation 11:7) . . .And when they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will make war with them and conquer them and kill them. . .</div>
<div align="left">(Revelation 13:1-7) . . .And I saw a wild beast ascending out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, and upon its horns ten diadems, but upon its heads blasphemous names. 2 Now the wild beast that I saw was like a leopard, but its feet were as those of a bear, and its mouth was as a lion&#39;s mouth. And the dragon gave to [the beast] its power and its throne and great authority. 3 And I saw one of its heads as though slaughtered to death, but its death-stroke got healed, and all the earth followed the wild beast with admiration. 4 And they worshiped the dragon because it gave the authority to the wild beast, and they worshiped the wild beast with the words: "Who is like the wild beast, and who can do battle with it?" 5 And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it, and authority to act forty-two months was given it. 6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his residence, even those residing in heaven. 7 And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them. . .</div>

(Revelation 17:8) . . .The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. And when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present, those who dwell on the earth will wonder admiringly, but their names have not been written upon the scroll of life from the founding of the world.

[The Bible Student]

[the locust of rev 9 are let out 5 months before the destruction of babylon comes at (6th trumpet) to torment those not having Gods mark.

Those that survive it are ones as scripture says do not repent, and these will be destroyed at the 7th trumpet.

It seems these trumpets are blown successively but in rapid succession.