Wt Study For Jan.18,2009

[James]

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[diamondiiz]

As usual there are some good things and some nonsense in the article. We can understand that when some leave Jehovah they should be encouraged to return to God and meditate on the bible and try to help the weak one to be strengthen their faith. It is true that if one sins against Jehovah that one may need to be encouraged to turn around and repent. But are we to understand that leaving WTS and Jehovah are all the same? Are we to imagine that disagreeing with WTS teaching is comparable to the time when some disciples left Christ because they misunderstood what he was saying? How arrogant!
GB took on the title of faithful and discreet slave as if they were anointed. Maybe would be different if from the start WTS purpose was to put bible study ahead of date finding. At least this way one could say that WTS drifted from the origins of it's purpose but that is not the case.

Then they go on about how unhappy we who don't go to meetings must be because our lives must be such a mess, what a joke! One good point though however out of context is that it was because of WTS we learned the truth, obviously we also learned lies which is never brought forth either. It is true and the credit is due to them that many of us did look into the bible more and that we were able to learn about Jehovah and that we did progress in seeking out Jehovah. But to say that leaving WTS is equal to leaving God is nonsense.

Now paragraph 19! Can anyone say 1914 or 1925 or the latest 1975 all over again! "We are living in the last days, and the end of the present system of things is imminent." It is true that we are almost 100 years from the first cry of the end of the world and over 30 years since '75 and WTS hasn't learned a thing - I guess they did that they don't stick a number behind imminent. :) I look at this as this may truely be the tribulation for the global family but at the end of it WTS and possibly all religions will find themselves on a very shaky ground. Much disappointment will occur and many will have their expectations dashed to pieces. Will the master only then arrive, in the middle of the night? Will the ten "virgens" waiting awake and half will have to go back to buy some lamp oil? Will that be the time where the few chosen virgins will find themselves sleeping without being prepared? I suppose time will tell but it would appear so.

100 years since the first expected end is quickly approaching. Many will think that this is it, even as 2012 approaches with Mayan prediction so far being closer than that of WTS! How many people in WTS and the world will be disappointed when tribulation comes and goes? Will this tribulation end with a globe being at the brink of nuclear holocust and all of a sudden a major turn around? Just a possible event comparable to the disgusting thing causing desolation that occured in 66CE? Only time will tell but this could lead to a time where God needs to shorten the tribulation on the account of the chosen ones. Would such an end to a possible Armageddon shaken the WTS as the dark clouds would seem to have been dispersed when in fact the angels of Rev 7 would only be holding back the four winds? I guess only time will tell but whatever the future holds we must continue strenghten ourselves and continue to stay awake and be prepared when the master does arrive.

[Desert Blossom]

I wonder if they will get more serious about "rounding up" inactive ones now that people are leaving out the back door in record numbers. I wouldn't be surprised if they start having round up campaigns, considering the current rate of turnover in the congregations.

Maybe they'll even change some rules, such as allowing people to count their time spent in rounding up inactive ones. They need some motivation! I know a couple of sisters that do count their time visiting inactive ones and sick ones, they've always considered it part of the ministry, while others never count that time.

[CerebralEcstasy]

James, thank you for posting this.

I've just joined the site, and have been reading some of the entries. Some things I've raised my eyebrows at, others I've went hmmn - I may have thought this myself at one point.

Given the nature of this site, and some of the opinions, I find it highly ironic that the heading "Was It a Problem With a Teaching?" points out how certain ones did not agree with some of the Scriptural teaching, forgetting God's works on their behalf, and failed to wait for his counsel....

Not to mention those who figuratively told Jesus to stick it in his ear when he presented something they didn't want to hear.

From my perspective, it seems that we're doing just that if we sift through the WT mags, and only read/learn from the teachings we agree with....

Just my thoughts on the matter.

[Nash]

Thanks, James, for posting this article.

This article was familiar - I think I've seen it posted on another forum before.

---

Watchtower, your subversive trickery doesn't fool people. It's evident that your writing department (and all of Bethel, probably) is full of Satan's pawns and completely infiltrated by the evil slave.

Paragraph 1: "There was nowhere else to go." You just quoted John 6:68 which emphasized Jesus Christ as the person to whom we are to go. There was no reference to a physical location. Why are you twisting the scriptures? Is it because, as Desert Blossom correctly points out, that many are leaving? Perhaps if you weren't acting like Babylon the Great, you wouldn't have such a high turnover rate.

Paragraph 2: Watchtower, you quote Ezekiel chapter 34? How dare you! Have you read the entire chapter, or have you simply highlighted the 'positive' part of the chapter and sidestepped its real meaning, to make yourselves look good? Ezekiel chapter 34 clearly shows that Jehovah was tending his sheep because the elders and the organization at that time failed in their duty as shepherds. This is the same situation you are in today; can you not see it? Jesus words to the Pharisees at John 9:41 apply to you, hypocrites: "Jesus said to them: If you were blind, you would have no sin. But now you say, 'We see.' Your sin remains.""

You discuss in paragraph four that studying the scriptures, attending meetings, and preaching are things that Jehovah requires. What about exercising justice, and loving kindness and modesty as Micah 6:8 brings out?

You do have the right approach in paragraph five. You should listen to what the inactive individual says. However, if that person says something that goes contrary to what you want them to say, will you ignore it? What if they tell you that they are happier not attending meetings, because they are free of the lies, slander, gossip, fornication, hypocrisy, backbiting, abuse, racism, etc., as the case may be? Are you really ready to stand up for justice?

Paragraph 6: "Reflecting on such questions may help the inactive ones to see that because of their lack of association with the congregation, their spirituality and happiness have diminished." Watchtower, this is mind control. You are insinuating that inactive people are miserable. Why? To prop up your false spiritual paradise? Why are you lying to your followers? Why are you making the inactive answer for something that they shouldn't have to answer?

You at least admit that in paragraph 8 that some may have been stumbled. Therefore, it is not their fault. Will these so-called respected individuals in the congregations answer for their mistreatment of the inactive in the flock? Obviously, if these were trivial matters, there would not be so many inactive, and this section of the article would not have had to be written. Therefore, there is obviously much abuse in the congregations, the bulk of which is probably caused by the elders. It's a fact that elders create problems for nothing in the congregation, stick their noses where they don't belong, and see things which aren't there.

Paragraph 9: "In an effort to be of spiritual help, an elder might mention that with the passing of time, some might find that what stumbled them no longer seems very important." This, in my opinion, is the most dangerous sentence in the entire article. First, it is not the place of the abuser or those who represent him to have an inactive person 'forget' the mistreatment. Why do you insist on diverting attention away from the real problem(s)? Is it because many elders do not have the holy spirit, as they claim? Is it because they will be exposed as imposters, and you will have to deal with that? Second, if it was serious enough to cause an individual to be inactive, who are you to dismiss the problem as unimportant, or to convince the inactive one that it does not seem important, or that it no longer is important? You are very crafty with your words here - this is a tool of the devil. Third, I have personally noticed many times over thas this satanic tactic of yours ('forgetting the problem' with the passing of time) is used often in the congregations. What you are saying is that it is okay for elders to abuse; then all they have to do to avoid punishment is to let time pass, so that the abused one will look like a troublemaker if he brings up the issue or problem, and then the inactive one will be labelled as being divisive and contentious. How convenient for Satan to have his way in the congregations! A false love, a false peace, and false justice in the congregations - all so that the devil and his hordes can do as they please with no accountability! Take heed of Jesus words at Matthew 23:23: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was binding to do, yet not to disregard the other things."

You say that in paragraphs ten and eleven that some have left because of your teachings. Watchtower, have you ever gone beyond what was written? Have many died bacause of your teachings, only to reverse the teachings later, so that many died a needless death? Why do you assume that you are serving excellent spiritual food? Is it because you say so?

You say that in paragraph twelve that repentant wrongdoers are not disfellowshipped? I highly doubt this. Many elders have agendas, and the fate of the individual is long decided before the judicial process has begun. Who are you trying to fool?

Be careful, Watchtower, that you don't insinuate to any who return that they are like the prodigal son. This has happened, because most of the elders don't have the holy spirit. Some of the inactive haven't done anything wrong. You have caused much of the damage. Perhaps you should focus on the scriptures and apply them properly instead of trying to excuse your own misconduct.

---

Nash

[Nash]

One good point though however out of context is that it was because of WTS we learned the truth, obviously we also learned lies which is never brought forth either. It is true and the credit is due to them that many of us did look into the bible more and that we were able to learn about Jehovah and that we did progress in seeking out Jehovah. But to say that leaving WTS is equal to leaving God is nonsense.[/b]

Hi Diamondiiz,

You bring up a good point here. Many do learn about Jehovah and his purposes through Jehovah's Witnesses. I agree.

Jehovah's Witnesses love to say this. The issue I have with their statement is that this does not give them the right to lie to us, as well as other things.

I was thinking about this comparison earlier today: it's like a father who is sexually abusing his daughter. He is the father, true, but that does not give him the right to abuse the child.

It's the same with the Watchtower. They did teach us the truth. That does not, however, give them the right to lie to us when convenient, and excuse their own misconduct.

Nash

[FGM]

These articles are based on the scripture in Luke 15:6 as we all know
What did Jesus mean by a sheep that was lost.
Did he mean a sheep that was lost from the point of view of the sheep or from the point of view of the shepherd.
If we look at the illustration Jesus said that a shepherd would leave 99 in the wilderness to look for one sheep. If the shepherd leaves the 99 are they not at that time lost, because the shepherd is not with them. He has gone off looking for the one sheep. However, the sheep that is being looked for may not realise it is lost. It may feel quite happy munching on the grass or whatever it went after. Is it only when the shepherd finds it does it realise it was lost? So being lost depends on the point of view of what Jesus meant by lost. Jesus finished the illustration by saying that there will be more joy over the sinner that repents. So does not a lost sheep refer to one who has sinned unrepentantly. Yet the lost sheep is still considered part of the flock even though an unrepentant sinner. If the sheep was not considered part of the flock then the shepherd would not go after it. So are those who leave the congregation lost sheep. It would seem so. But at the same time if they are unrepentant sinners that should mean that they are no longer part of the flock, according to the WTS.
The article refers to lost sheep as "inactive" or "missing" (para 3) or a person who has committed a wrong but not confessed it. Did Jesus really mean us to consider these as lost sheep or was he telling us to treat disfellowshipped ones as lost sheep. From Jesus point of view such one seems to be a lost sheep. But do they feel lost?
Some maybe feel that they have been found rather lost.

[Desert Blossom]

Paragraph 9: "In an effort to be of spiritual help, an elder might mention that with the passing of time, some might find that what stumbled them no longer seems very important." This, in my opinion, is the most dangerous sentence in the entire article. First, it is not the place of the abuser or those who represent him to have an inactive person 'forget' the mistreatment. Why do you insist on diverting attention away from the real problem(s)? Is it because many elders do not have the holy spirit, as they claim? Is it because they will be exposed as imposters, and you will have to deal with that? Second, if it was serious enough to cause an individual to be inactive, who are you to dismiss the problem as unimportant, or to convince the inactive one that it does not seem important, or that it no longer is important? You are very crafty with your words here - this is a tool of the devil. Third, I have personally noticed many times over thas this satanic tactic of yours ('forgetting the problem' with the passing of time) is used often in the congregations. What you are saying is that it is okay for elders to abuse; then all they have to do to avoid punishment is to let time pass, so that the abused one will look like a troublemaker if he brings up the issue or problem, and then the inactive one will be labelled as being divisive and contentious. How convenient for Satan to have his way in the congregations! A false love, a false peace, and false justice in the congregations - all so that the devil and his hordes can do as they please with no accountability! Take heed of Jesus words at Matthew 23:23: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was binding to do, yet not to disregard the other things."

Nash[/b]

Nash, I appreciated your whole post, but especially the part above. You really hit the nail on the head. You put into words what I've experienced, and so many others. I'm pretty sure the main reason the elders don't bother with me is because I could expose a number of them. There are things that happened many years ago, things I didn't understand....until I came to this forum. Now I'm in a position to refute what they did and scripturally support my defense. Years ago I was speechless, but in my heart I knew something was wrong. Now I realize what it was, they were the ones going outside of the scriptures.

I don't harbor any resentment towards them because I know the day will come when they have to face the music. At that time, if they humbly repent and acknowledge their error, I will be happy for them. In fact, I hope they do repent because it would be a shame for their families to lose them.

Some of them have held their positions of power for decades. It's not going to be easy for them to admit they abused their position of authority. I hope they will call to mind the example of King David when Nathan brought attention to his error. (2 Samuel 12:1-14)

[Nash]

Thanks Desert Blossom.

We must have had similar experiences in dealing with the elders. In my case, the elders misapplied and twisted so many scriptures and said so many unscriptural things I couldn't believe what I was hearing. That's one reason why I was driven from my congregation.

When the elders did what they did, I too realized that there was something seriously wrong. My issue was not the fact that the elders were wrong - I already knew that they didn't know what they were doing. My issue was they they couldn't see the issues that they were causing, the problems they were creating out of thin air, and the fact that most didn't see how lost these men really are.

There were a few that did see the stupidity in my particular case, and these ones helped me to keep my sanity. In the end, unfortunately, the elders ended up driving me from the congregation (I know that sounds weak, but it's a long story). Naturally, they thought their intention was to 'help' me, but they really had no clue what they were saying and doing because of the complexity of the situation which they never understood in the first place.

It was around that time that I started looking on the internet and realized that my situation was not unique (in the sense that the elders mishandle things). They are not trained in any meaningful way to analyze the complex problems that many in the congregations face today. They usually end up giving poor advice, and then they blame the individual when things don't work out as planned, even when an individual follows the elders' instructions to the letter.

I received a sense of calm when I realized that I really was not the only one who had been mistreated. I think we all on the board have realized that, which makes forums like these such a good resource.

Sadly, it's become common for all of the blame to be placed on an innocent individual, or innocent individuals, rather than the people who are really the cause of the problem(s), whatever the case(s) may be. The 1975 issue is a classic example. There is proof that the Society vocalized in at least one assembly talk that 1975 would be 'the end,' but, craftily, they did not put this in print so that it could not come back to haunt them. This is a trick that 'legal' people do all the time:

Watchtower elders: "Is it in print?"

John Q. Publisher: "No."

Watchtower elders: "Then we never said it. Now, stop saying we did or we'll accuse you of [apostasy, causing divisions, promoting sects, etc.]."

John Q. Publisher: "But I heard a talk on the internet where the speaker said that the end would come by 1975."

Watchtower elders: "What are you doing on the internet? You know what the Slave^TM says about this."

And on it goes. That's just a hypothetical example, of course. The Watchtower are absolute experts at using and abusing language, shifting blame and getting away with it, and misapplying the scriptures to suit their agendas.

I could go on for hours discussing what I call the 'psychology of the Watchtower,' but I'll cut it short here. :185:

Nash

[Nash]

Oh yeah, another thing - I laughed when you said that "it would be a shame for their families to lose them." I thought that the way you worded it was quite funny.

Nash

[Desert Blossom]

Oh yeah, another thing - I laughed when you said that "it would be a shame for their families to lose them." I thought that the way you worded it was quite funny.

Nash[/b]

Some of the families might find some relief, eh? I know a few sisters that are married to tyrant-like elders. The sisters must have acquired sainthood by now. ;)

[FutureMan]

Thanks Desert Blossom.

We must have had similar experiences in dealing with the elders. In my case, the elders misapplied and twisted so many scriptures and said so many unscriptural things I couldn't believe what I was hearing. That's one reason why I was driven from my congregation.

When the elders did what they did, I too realized that there was something seriously wrong. My issue was not the fact that the elders were wrong - I already knew that they didn't know what they were doing. My issue was they they couldn't see the issues that they were causing, the problems they were creating out of thin air, and the fact that most didn't see how lost these men really are.

There were a few that did see the stupidity in my particular case, and these ones helped me to keep my sanity. In the end, unfortunately, the elders ended up driving me from the congregation (I know that sounds weak, but it's a long story). Naturally, they thought their intention was to 'help' me, but they really had no clue what they were saying and doing because of the complexity of the situation which they never understood in the first place.

It was around that time that I started looking on the internet and realized that my situation was not unique (in the sense that the elders mishandle things). They are not trained in any meaningful way to analyze the complex problems that many in the congregations face today. They usually end up giving poor advice, and then they blame the individual when things don't work out as planned, even when an individual follows the elders' instructions to the letter.

I received a sense of calm when I realized that I really was not the only one who had been mistreated. I think we all on the board have realized that, which makes forums like these such a good resource.

Sadly, it's become common for all of the blame to be placed on an innocent individual, or innocent individuals, rather than the people who are really the cause of the problem(s), whatever the case(s) may be. The 1975 issue is a classic example. There is proof that the Society vocalized in at least one assembly talk that 1975 would be 'the end,' but, craftily, they did not put this in print so that it could not come back to haunt them. This is a trick that 'legal' people do all the time:

Watchtower elders: "Is it in print?"

John Q. Publisher: "No."

Watchtower elders: "Then we never said it. Now, stop saying we did or we'll accuse you of [apostasy, causing divisions, promoting sects, etc.]."

John Q. Publisher: "But I heard a talk on the internet where the speaker said that the end would come by 1975."

Watchtower elders: "What are you doing on the internet? You know what the Slave^TM says about this."

And on it goes. That's just a hypothetical example, of course. The Watchtower are absolute experts at using and abusing language, shifting blame and getting away with it, and misapplying the scriptures to suit their agendas.

I could go on for hours discussing what I call the 'psychology of the Watchtower,' but I'll cut it short here. :185:

Nash[/b]

You are right their Nash, there is no support for our dear brothers and sisters in the congregations that are going through stressful situations or those who are really mentally ill.

The Elders are simply not qualified to handle this.
As far as I know they do not get the proper training to handle people with emotional issues.
As far as I know the organization have no qualified counselors or those with psychological training on hand.
Yet it was not long ago that going to psychologists or psychiatrists was frowned upon.
If you read some scriptures out of the book of psalms, the that should fix up your problem or help you to cope with your depression, was the usual counsel by the Elders. Just read your bible and pray, that'll solve your problem, they say.

The brother who jumped out of the Bethel window a few years ago, must have not prayed enough to God to help him.

Well my wife reads the Bible often and prays regularly and she still suffers from depression.
In fact she has suffered depression for over 17 years, during which time she has had very little understanding of her condition of most of the Elders.
When I started going through my own emotional problems which turned into an illness there was even less understanding towards me by the Elders.
Most of them simply couldn't understand it. They couldn't understand why I struggled in the workforce, why I struggled being regular at the meetings, field service, ETC.
Why God's spirit should just be able to carry me through, would be their thought, I must not be doing something right in the truth, or I don't have enough reliance on Jehovah or something like that.
One day we had a visit to our group by a circuit overseer who was visiting his daughter and I asked him why wasn't the organization training brothers or sisters in psychology to be counselors that these ones can call on instead of going to secular psychologists.
His answer was, should we go to the expense of building hospitals for our brothers as well?
Well maybe they should, why not?

He did not see why the organization should go to that extent of either sending brothers to education facilities for psychological training or have someone with specialized training to train certain brothers in the congregations.

In fact there doesn't seem to me to be much attention given to the brothers and sisters physical needs or emotional needs. Especially the older ones.
Apparently all they are suppose to do is look after their spiritual needs mostly.

In my area rent has hit the roof and a lot of our disabled and elderly ones in the congregations are really struggling to make ends meet.

Are the society providing retirement homes for these ones?
I don't know of any in this country.
Yet I know of other religions that do. The ones who are called Christendom and part of Babylon the great by the organization.

Anyway I've had my whinge for what it is worth.
I let someone else have a go now, from FutureMan.

[Desert Blossom]

In my area rent has hit the roof and a lot of our disabled and elderly ones in the congregations are really struggling to make ends meet.

Are the society providing retirement homes for these ones?
I don't know of any in this country.
Yet I know of other religions that do. The ones who are called Christendom and part of Babylon the great by the organization.[/b]

The Society's assets could be providing for the elderly ones. Whatever happened to the equalizing principle? (2 Cor. 8:13-15)

[FutureMan]

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No hours reported on their field service slip, for over 6 months.
Irregular at the 5 meetings a week.
Oops I forgot now it's only 4 meetings a week, they've lopped one of, haven't they.

From FutureMan

[azul]

First of James -- I would like to thank you for posting the w/t in English. We are in a foreign country and we cannot readily get the articles in English. In Fact you would be my hero if you posted the whole w/t . You would think Jehovah’s Org. would have it on their website?

Although I have suffered some abuse at the hands of some in congregations, and from some elders, I do feel that we have to bear some of the burden ourselves.

NOTE HERE: Prepare for a long post.

EX: I was recently explaining to a visiting elder that there is a secret government that is pumping people up with chemicals (in our food), and slowly trying to make u sick, so you can pay the pharmacy, and doctors to -- keep you sick! (Just the tip of the iceberg, don't get me going on that one)

His retort was some very useful counsel (not). " Well we are counseled not to pay attention to what the government is doing, and concentrate on spiritual matters "

My retort was " Ohh so you missed all those articles that say we need to stay abreast of what is going on around us so we can use the information in the ministry “ Not to mention that we can use some of that to help our brothers and sisters !! How?

The facts are that Jesuit influence is very strong in the world right now (www.vaticanassasians.com (http://www.vaticanassasians.com/) -- Oh and be prepared to have your jaw drop). What that means is that even if Jehovah’s Organization is sending brothers off for Psychological training, what they will get is training that will tell you "there is a pill that fixes this", "go see the doctor and he will help you" , " ohhh no we have to cut that organ out to make you better " " get an education ". That’s why its so dangerous to attend school, Its trains you for a system that is smoke and mirrors, and you never know who is telling you the truth. Even if you find out the truth about this system, someone will surely show up at your door and tell you to shut up. MY POINT ?

The brothers are dammed if they do, and dammed if they don’t. Jesus called it a fickle generation.

So Jehovah God encourages us to read his word the bible daily, take care of our physical body, take care of our mental state, and do the best we can. This is our responsibility (not the elders). If you educate yourself, and come to find out that the vaccinations your children are given are filled with poison and most likely is the cause of crib death, and serious physical and mental problems for our children like, adhd, bipolar, depression,what should you do? The Elders cannot help you with that.

Or you find out the food companies are required to inject your food with radiation, and that what we eat is most likely the cause of all the new diseases we see, fibromyalgia, (is that spelled right ?) Alzheimer’s, chromes, the list goes on and on, what should you do?

So how do I know all this? When my wife and I first got married she was suffering from severe depression. I never had to go thorough depression before in my entire life, so being not so very wise, I told my fiancée (current wife), " No big deal, we will deal with it! " Wrong, we have dealt with it but it’s a hugh deal. I was ignorant ,, and so our some of our brothers.

Here is how we have had to deal with my wifes ( not bad at all now )depression problem.
First she started to exercize, very little at first (and she did not like it), walking a few blocks. Then running a block or two. Now shes up to running 4 or more miles a day. When she stops exercizing , we all know it.

Second thing ,, we had to drastically change our diets. Find ways to go natural and organic, even raising and growing our own food (even moving to another country). One would think aww that’s not that big a deal, well when you visit a sick persons house just open the cupboard and take a look at twinke heaven. We (my wife and I) visited one sister who was gaining weight, had fibromyalga, dark circles under her eyes, diagnosed with bipolar, 3 of her 4 children were bi-polar. The more we talked with here and visited, and got to know her, the more we realized that she had the most God awful diet I have ever seen. The cupboard on top was like the hostess isle at the super market. The bottom cupboard looked like she was about to have a super bowl party, and her fridge was like a NY street vender’s storage, hot dogs and pizza everywhere. No vegetables, no fruits (except the special preserved juice in a box). Make no mistake brothers and sisters, it is very expensive to eat well in the States, and takes a lot of work, but it’s worth it.

Third thing - We educated our selves about this system of things. Remember goggle is your friend. I gave a talk one time, about how our ministry is doing. Included was a definition of insanity " doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result " Of course I applied it to our ministry if were in a rut. Can we use this for our life? If you have seen doctors for years and nothing new (except your medicine cabinet grows, and so does you bill for pills) or good happens, make a change. Lots of friends are using homeopathy now, it has helped my wife a thousand times over, and I actually consider it a miracle. The Internet is a Hugh knowledge base for your using; keep digging till you find the natural and right answer.

Remember when Jesus told his disciples that Jerusalem would be surrounded and to flee to the mountains? At that time Jehovah’s organization was telling the Jews to stay in the city, or to fight the Romans. Your Christian brothers and sisters had to think, and listen to the counsel of Jesus and flee, not listen to Jehovah’s organization. Do we think that at the end of this system of things that Jehovah’s Organization will be here and thriving? Don’t bet on it. There might not be any elders to run and talk to; you might be on your own like the brothers and sisters thrown into prison camps all over the planet. You have the best bible training on the planet, please put it to use and apply the principles in your lives.

Pheww --- Now im going to go have quite a few beers , its past 10am here. Well you didn’t think I wrote this for me did you ???? Im fine I don’t needs anything . LOL

[Nash]

You are right there Nash, there is no support for our dear brothers and sisters in the congregations that are going through stressful situations or those who are really mentally ill.

The Elders are simply not qualified to handle this.
As far as I know they do not get the proper training to handle people with emotional issues.
As far as I know the organization have no qualified counselors or those with psychological training on hand.
Yet it was not long ago that going to psychologists or psychiatrists was frowned upon.
If you read some scriptures out of the book of psalms, the that should fix up your problem or help you to cope with your depression, was the usual counsel by the Elders. Just read your bible and pray, that'll solve your problem, they say.

The brother who jumped out of the Bethel window a few years ago, must have not prayed enough to God to help him.

Well my wife reads the Bible often and prays regularly and she still suffers from depression.
In fact she has suffered depression for over 17 years, during which time she has had very little understanding of her condition of most of the Elders.
When I started going through my own emotional problems which turned into an illness there was even less understanding towards me by the Elders.
Most of them simply couldn't understand it. They couldn't understand why I struggled in the workforce, why I struggled being regular at the meetings, field service, ETC.
Why God's spirit should just be able to carry me through, would be their thought, I must not be doing something right in the truth, or I don't have enough reliance on Jehovah or something like that.
One day we had a visit to our group by a circuit overseer who was visiting his daughter and I asked him why wasn't the organization training brothers or sisters in psychology to be counselors that these ones can call on instead of going to secular psychologists.
His answer was, should we go to the expense of building hospitals for our brothers as well?
Well maybe they should, why not?

He did not see why the organization should go to that extent of either sending brothers to education facilities for psychological training or have someone with specialized training to train certain brothers in the congregations.

In fact there doesn't seem to me to be much attention given to the brothers and sisters physical needs or emotional needs. Especially the older ones.
Apparently all they are suppose to do is look after their spiritual needs mostly.

In my area rent has hit the roof and a lot of our disabled and elderly ones in the congregations are really struggling to make ends meet.

Are the society providing retirement homes for these ones?
I don't know of any in this country.
Yet I know of other religions that do. The ones who are called Christendom and part of Babylon the great by the organization.

Anyway I've had my whinge for what it is worth.
I let someone else have a go now, from FutureMan.[/b]

Hi FutureMan,

It's my opinion that I don't think that elders should receive formal psychological training. That's not really their job anyway. But if someone is having an emotional problem or suffering depression, then they should be able to consult an appropriate specialist without criticism. This is where the Society and its elders go wrong. Of course, the reason why the Society doesn't want the brothers and sisters to go to these specialists is the fear of the Society's dirty laundry being exposed in public and the therapist exposing the errors in 'spiritual paradise' as well as showing that the Watchtower itself causes so many problems.

I remember sitting at a Circuit Assembly/Special Day Assembly where the speaker was poking fun at psychiatrists and psychologists. While I don't think that everything that psychologists and psychiatrists say is credible since I know that many doctors are quacks, brothers and sisters should at least be able to consult one deemed credible should it become necessary.

Is your wife feeling better now? I hope that you and your wife and family are doing better. :)

Nash

[Eyes & Ears]

DB, Nash and Azul:


Very helpful expressions.

Azul you and your family are in my thoughts and prayers. May Jehovah be with
you and your wife.

Depression is very serious, difficult and complex.

Unless one has been personally touched by this as an individual or someone you love has or is being affected, then you have no idea how big/far reaching (for lack of a better word) this illness can be be.


E & E

Psalms 71:20, 21

Because you have made me see many distresses and calamities,
May you revive me again; And from the watery deeps
of the earth may you again bring me up

May you enlarge my greatness, And may you surround and comfort me.

[FutureMan]

Hi FutureMan,

It's my opinion that I don't think that elders should receive formal psychological training. That's not really their job anyway. But if someone is having an emotional problem or suffering depression, then they should be able to consult an appropriate specialist without criticism. This is where the Society and its elders go wrong. Of course, the reason why the Society doesn't want the brothers and sisters to go to these specialists is the fear of the Society's dirty laundry being exposed in public and the therapist exposing the errors in 'spiritual paradise' as well as showing that the Watchtower itself causes so many problems.

I remember sitting at a Circuit Assembly/Special Day Assembly where the speaker was poking fun at psychiatrists and psychologists. While I don't think that everything that psychologists and psychiatrists say is credible since I know that many doctors are quacks, brothers and sisters should at least be able to consult one deemed credible should it become necessary.

Is your wife feeling better now? I hope that you and your wife and family are doing better. :)

Nash[/b]

Dear Nash here is a scripture for you where it does concern the elders and our mentally ill brothers and sisters :*** Rbi8 1 Thessalonians 5:14 *** NWT

14 On the other hand, we exhort YOU, brothers, admonish the disorderly, speak consolingly to the depressed souls, support the weak, be long-suffering toward all.

Now is it or is it not primarily an elders duty to support the weak and speak consolingly to depressed souls.
This is where some psychological training would be an advantage and I would say even necessary especially if someone is suicidal or even homicidal.

An elder could legally be held responsible by law, for a person's death, if it was found out that what he said to a particular individual caused that person to commit suicide.
In other words they could be sued by that person's family.

They simply do need to know how to speak to these ones.

This is why I say that the organization should be assigning brothers in different areas with specialized training in psychology, to which the elders could go to for advice as to how to handle certain mentally ill brothers and sisters, particularly at judicial hearings.

We live in a time where the society we live is very complex and is getting worse because of information technology and our fast pace of life.
If you don't think so then check out the statistics.
There is a lot of mentally ill people in our community and it is getting worse as time goes on.
Depression does not only make people mentally ill it causes physical aliments which can lead to death or serious health conditions that really does prevent a person from functioning properly either secularly or spiritually and in a lot of these cases there is no quick fix, if indeed they're ever cured.

Now one of the main problems with going to secular psychologists is that they are typically effected by the evolution theory and the low morals and philosophy of this world's society.

How do you think this will effect the individual who are visiting these professionals?

Do you think that these psychologists are going to encourage a person to stick with their beliefs when their belief system is different to Christians, especially Jehovah's Witnesses?

My thought from FutureMan.

[Nash]

Hi FutureMan,

You bring out some good points for discussion, so I'll address them as best as I can. I can understand where you are coming from.

When 1 Thessalonians 5:14 mentions to "speak consolingly to the depressed souls," that, in my view, doesn't mean giving them advice on how to handle their problem or problems. Speaking consolingly and offering advice are two entirely different things.

You are absolutely right when you say that the elders can be sued if they say the wrong thing to someone, especially if they are depressed. When I was giving public talks, discussing publishers with the book study overseer, etc., I heard over and over that "we are not psychologists" and "we are not doctors." And the elders and the Society are absolutely right here. See, the legal door which you mention swings both ways. If an elder, or ministerial servant, or any representative appointed by the Society were to give medical/psychological advice without the proper credentials, they open themselves up to legal trouble, especially if a disaster ensues.

Therefore, this is why the advice given from the elders is always the same advice: read the bible more, study more, and pray more, for example. This isn't bad advice per se, but, as you and I know, it's not usually enough, underestimates the problem or problems, and is like a band-aid solution - a temporary fix. But that's really as far as they can go. They can't go beyond their mandate as ministers. (Many of them don't even minister properly!)

I'm aware of the issues surrounding depression and the issues that it causes. I'm also aware that life is getting more complicated and that depression is flourishing. And you're absolutely right - sometimes there is no quick fix.

You mention that "the organization should be assigning brothers in different areas with specialized training in psychology" to act as resources for the elders. This isn't a bad idea. But how many do you know of? In the country in which I live, as well as the United States, a degree in psychology and psychiatry is an advanced degree requiring years of education.

Given the fact that such elders or publishers would be few and far between, what do you think the Society should do? Frankly, I don't see the Society spending money on brothers to go to schools of higher education to get an advanced degree. (That would make their stance hypocritical, but that's another discussion.) Even if they were willing to spend the money, how many individuals would be willing to study for years? Where would they find such individuals? How would they choose them? How many would be willing to study psychology or psychiatry? How many of those people who actually would go and train for years and years to study psychiatry be willing to listen to all of the problems that the brothers and sisters have? Would this person be appointed an elder even though he may not have the scriptural qualifications? If this person ends up not being an elder, would people be comfortable going to this person? Can this person, elder or not, keep things confidential? What are the legal ramifications of such a person giving medical advice in a congregation setting?

You mention that "one of the main problems with going to secular psychologists is that they are typically affected by the evolution theory and the low morals and philosophy of this world's society." Yes, I agree somewhat, but I think this is a very general statement. There really is no easy answer here. However, despite the way that they think, they're still trained professionals. I'm not saying that they should all be trusted - this is why I stated in an earlier post that the choice should be an appropriate specialist who is deemed credible. The choice is left up to the individual and his/her family to decide on the best course.

You ask: "How do you think this will affect the individual who is visiting the professional?" and "Do you think that these psychologists are going to encourage a person to stick with their beliefs when their belief system is different to Christians, especially Jehovah's Witnesses?"

My answer to your first question is this: it depends on the individual.

As for your second question, I agree that their belief systems are more than likely different. But it really depends on the doctor. Again, they're not all the same. We're used to thinking that they're all bad because the organization has said so and we've been flooded with the organization's propaganda and innuendo. I'm not saying that all the psychologists/psychiatrists are good, but we can't generalize (as the Society so often does on so many things) and say that they're all bad, or that they're all anti-Christian, or they all have low morals. But we still should be cautious, nonetheless.

I'd like to point out and highlight that, in my research and study (not formal study) on Jehovah's Witnesses and mental issues and depression, I would say that the incidence of mental issues, mental problems, general problems, emotional disorders, and the like are higher among Jehovah's Witnesses on average than in the general population on average. Although this is a whole other discussion, part of the problem lies with how Jehovah's Witnesses are indoctrinated at the meetings and the messages and the dissonance and fallacies that our minds have to register. The Society itself causes much of the depression that Jehovah's Witnesses are experiencing today.

I hope I've answered your questions. I understand where you're coming from and I respect what you are saying. I'm sure that the Society also sees the issues, but, again, they've backed themselves into a corner. At the end of the day, it really is an individual's decision on the treatment that he or she will accept.

Nash

[FutureMan]

Hello again Nash I probably phrased it wrong when I mentioned that psychologists are effected by the low moral standards of this world, and I'm sure that there are some who are of high moral standards and some who do believe in God and perhaps do have a Christian background too.
But I was speaking in general terms and I guess you are correct in this that we need to be cautious when selecting a psychologist or a psychiatrist or a counselor for that matter.

I actually had a very good psychologist who I was seeing who helped me to see people in the world, in a much better light than I was actually seeing.
You see I had a distorted view of people because of a combination of my upbring in the organization and by my parents who were Jehovah's witnesses since I was about 5 years old.
Both of them did not have a very good education.
In fact I really had a miserable childhood as I was growing up.
Not that I was abused mind you.
No, but I was not given a lot of love or attention either.
My father was a workaholic, and my mum, well she had psychological problems to deal with.
I don't blame either of my parents.
But It followed on from there.

Up until perhaps 1 year ago I saw most things through the lens of the Watchtower Society, a very distorted view indeed.
He helped me to see that there were actually many good people out there in the world who were not Witnesses.

But the main problem with seeking a health professional is that most likely a person in that state where he or she needs to seek a professional might not be in full control of their thinking faculties, and thereby might not make a very good choice when selecting someone.
My wife was one of those but fortunately I was there to help her.

Anyway just some more of my thoughts and experiences, from FutureMan.