Who Really Is The Faithful And Discreet Slave?

[SlaveForJah]

I believe that the Governing body is the visible representation of "the faithful and discreet slave" who are in total all the remnant alive today. I believe that Jehovah&#39;s holy spirit is not only just on these men but on all the remnant. At the time of the distruction of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society as shown at Danial 12:7 </span></span>
Then we will find out not only what our King Jesus wants but, exactly who the remaining ones of the 144,000 really are and we will know the fulfilment of the prophecys.[/b]


Hello all, Christian Greetings.

I&#39;m starting this thread because FJW&#39;s post above got me to thinking. That post can be found in noname&#39;s "Paradise: With Or Without The Organization" (http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2430&pid=25179&st=0&#entry25179) thread.

FJW said that when the Watchtower is destroyed we will know who the 144,000 really are. My question is twofold then: Is the "faithful and discreet slave" the same as the 144,000? And even if they are, why is it important for us to know WHO is truly one of the 144,000?

Here&#39;s a few topics for discussion: Who was being addressed by Jesus when he spoke of the faithful steward? Who did Jesus mean in referencing the faithful slave? What import was there placed on Christ&#39;s followers to "figure out" who the faithful steward represented? How important is it for Christ&#39;s followers to not only "figure out" who is represented by the faithful slave, but to positively identify the individuals that would comprise the representative group - if indeed a "group" was inteded to be understood?

I await everyone&#39;s thoughts.


Agape

SlaveForJah

[truthseeker]

<div class='quotemain'>I believe that the Governing body is the visible representation of "the faithful and discreet slave" who are in total all the remnant alive today. I believe that Jehovah&#39;s holy spirit is not only just on these men but on all the remnant. At the time of the distruction of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society as shown at Danial 12:7 </span></span>
Then we will find out not only what our King Jesus wants but, exactly who the remaining ones of the 144,000 really are and we will know the fulfilment of the prophecys.[/b]


Hello all, Christian Greetings.

I&#39;m starting this thread because FJW&#39;s post above got me to thinking. That post can be found in noname&#39;s "Paradise: With Or Without The Organization" (http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2430&pid=25179&st=0&#entry25179) thread.

FJW said that when the Watchtower is destroyed we will know who the 144,000 really are. My question is twofold then: Is the "faithful and discreet slave" the same as the 144,000? And even if they are, why is it important for us to know WHO is truly one of the 144,000?

Here&#39;s a few topics for discussion: Who was being addressed by Jesus when he spoke of the faithful steward? Who did Jesus mean in referencing the faithful slave? What import was there placed on Christ&#39;s followers to "figure out" who the faithful steward represented? How important is it for Christ&#39;s followers to not only "figure out" who is represented by the faithful slave, but to positively identify the individuals that would comprise the representative group - if indeed a "group" was inteded to be understood?

I await everyone&#39;s thoughts.


Agape

SlaveForJah
[/b][/quote]

GOOD QUESTIONS : SlaveForJah
Truthseeker

[Utuna]

Dear SlaveforJah,


"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth". 1 John 2:18-20 (NIV)

<div align="center">----------------------------------------------------
</div>
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, accompanied by all the angels, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates sheep from goats. The &#39;sheep&#39; he will place at his right hand and the &#39;goats&#39; at his left.

"Then the King will say to those on his right, &#39;Come, you whom my Father has blessed, take your inheritance, the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you made me your guest, I needed clothes and you provided them, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.&#39; Then the people who have done what God wants will reply, &#39;Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and make you our guest, or needing clothes and provide them? When did we see you sick or in prison, and visit you?&#39; The King will say to them, &#39;Yes! I tell you that whenever you did these things for one of the least important of these brothers of mine, you did them for me!&#39;

"Then he will also speak to those on his left, saying, &#39;Get away from me, you who are cursed! Go off into the fire prepared for the Adversary and his angels! For I was hungry and you gave me no food, thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, a stranger and you did not welcome me, needing clothes and you did not give them to me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.&#39; Then they too will reply, &#39;Lord, when did we see you hungry, thirsty, a stranger, needing clothes, sick or in prison, and not take care of you?&#39; And he will answer them, &#39;Yes! I tell you that whenever you refused to do it for the least important of these people, you refused to do it for me!&#39;

They will go off to eternal punishment, but those who have done what God wants will go to eternal life." - Matt 25:31-46 (CJB)

-----------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or&#39; - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Eyes & Ears]

To me, those are very good questions.

I don&#39;t much about anything anymore, but this article helped me to know who is and who is not, and the importance of being aware so I am not misled. Do you all remember this article. I also appreciate Mt 23-25, and all other scriptural references that help us stay on the watch, keep awake to identify those faithful brothers of Christ upon his return/presence/inspection. I&#39;m not sure which of those three words is correct, but as long as I am able to discern with Jehovah&#39;s spirit what is taking place, I won&#39;t quibble about words.

Love to everyone on board during these challenging and exciting times.

Your Sister

E & E

************************************************** **************

I would like to just add that paragraphs 12, 13, 14 and 16 were most
troublesome to me. Also, if I am misguided, misdirected in my belief that this appointment has not taken place yet, I ask that Jehovah please re-direct my thinking and show me what steps to take to adjust that thinking. I don&#39;t ever want to offend anyone especially my Father Jehovah.



April 1, 2007 Watchtower
Watchtower Bible Tract Society of Pennsylvania
All Rights Reserved

<div align="center">Loyal to Christ and His Faithful Slave</div>
<div align="left">"His master . . . will appoint him over all his belongings."—MATTHEW 24:45-47.</div>
<div align="left">"YOU must not let people call you &#39;leaders&#39;—you have only one leader, Christ!" (Matthew 23:10, The New Testament in Modern English) With these words, Jesus made it plain to his followers that no man on earth would be their leader. Their one Leader would be heavenly—Jesus Christ himself. Jesus holds this position by divine appointment. Jehovah "raised him up from the dead and . . . made him head over all things to the congregation, which is his body."—Ephesians 1:20-23.</div>
^{<div align="left">2} Since Christ is "head over all things" with regard to the Christian congregation, he exercises his authority over all that takes place within the congregation. Nothing that occurs within the congregation escapes his notice. He closely observes the spiritual condition of each group of Christians, or congregation. This is clearly apparent in the revelation given to the apostle John at the end of the first century C.E. To seven congregations, Jesus stated five times that he knew their deeds, their strong points, and their weaknesses, and he gave counsel and encouragement accordingly. (Revelation 2:2, 9, 13, 19; 3:1, 8, 15) There is every reason to believe that Christ was equally familiar with the spiritual condition of other congregations in Asia Minor, Palestine, Syria, Babylonia, Greece, Italy, and elsewhere. (Acts 1:8) What of today?</div>
<div align="center">A Faithful Slave</div>
^{<div align="left">3} After his resurrection and shortly before his ascension to his Father in heaven, Jesus told his disciples: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth." He also said: "Look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things." (Matthew 28:18-20) He would continue to be with them as their active Head. In letters to Christians in Ephesus and Colossae, the apostle Paul likened the Christian congregation to a "body," of which Christ is the Head. (Ephesians 1:22, 23; Colossians 1:18) The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges states that this metaphor "suggests not only vital union with the Head, but that the will of the Head is exercised through the members. They are His instruments." Whom has Christ used as his collective instrument since being invested with Kingdom power in 1914?—Daniel 7:13, 14.</div>
^{<div align="left">4} The prophecy of Malachi foretold that Jehovah, "the true Lord," accompanied by his "messenger of the covenant," his newly enthroned Son, Christ Jesus, would come in judgment to inspect His "temple," or spiritual house of worship. "The appointed time" for the &#39;judgment of the house of God&#39; to begin evidently arrived in 1918. (Malachi 3:1; 1 Peter 4:17) Those claiming to represent God and his true worship on earth were duly examined. The churches of Christendom, who for centuries had taught God-dishonoring doctrines and had been heavily involved in the massacre of World War I, were rejected. A faithful remnant of spirit-anointed Christians were tested, refined as with fire, and approved, becoming to Jehovah "people presenting a gift offering in righteousness."—Malachi 3:3.</div>
^{<div align="left">5} In line with Malachi&#39;s prophecy, the composite sign that Jesus gave his disciples to enable them to recognize the time of his "presence and of the conclusion of the system of things" included the identification of a collective "slave." Jesus stated: "Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings." (Matthew 24:3, 45-47) "On arriving" to inspect the "slave" in 1918, Christ found a spirit-anointed remnant of faithful disciples who since 1879 had been using this journal and other Bible-based publications to provide spiritual "food at the proper time." He acknowledged them as his collective instrument, or "slave," and in 1919 entrusted them with the management of all his earthly belongings.</div>
<div align="center">Managing Christ&#39;s Earthly Belongings</div>
^{<div align="left">6} A few months before Jesus gave his prophecy on the sign of his presence, including the existence of a "slave" representing him on earth, he spoke of this "slave" in slightly different terms that shed light on the slave&#39;s responsibilities. Jesus stated: "Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time? I tell you truthfully, He will appoint him over all his belongings."—Luke 12:42, 44.</div>
^{<div align="left">7} Here the slave is called a steward, a word translated from a Greek term denoting "the manager of a household or estate." The collective steward would not simply be a group of intellectuals who explain interesting points from the Bible. In addition to providing nourishing spiritual food "at the proper time," "the faithful steward" would be appointed over the entire body of Christ&#39;s attendants and assigned to manage all of Christ&#39;s interests on earth, "all his belongings." What would this entail?</div>
^{<div align="left">8} The slave&#39;s responsibilities include the supervision of the material facilities used by Christ&#39;s followers to carry out their Christian activities, such as the world headquarters and branch offices of Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses, as well as their places of worship—Kingdom Halls and Assembly Halls—throughout the world. More important, the slave also oversees spiritually upbuilding programs of Bible study at weekly meetings and periodic assemblies and conventions. At these gatherings, information on the fulfillment of Bible prophecies is dispensed, and timely direction on how to apply Bible principles in daily life is given.</div>
^{<div align="left">9} The steward&#39;s responsibilities also include the supervision of the all-important work of preaching "this good news of the kingdom" and making "disciples of people of all the nations." This involves teaching people to observe all the things that Christ, the Head of the congregation, commands to be done during this time of the end. (Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20; Revelation 12:17) The preaching and teaching work has produced "a great crowd" of loyal companions of the anointed remnant. These "desirable things of all the nations" are undoubtedly to be counted among the precious "belongings" of Christ administered by the faithful slave.—Revelation 7:9; Haggai 2:7.</div>
<div align="center">A Representative Governing Body</div>
^{<div align="left">10} The faithful slave&#39;s heavy responsibilities would obviously involve much decision making. In the early Christian congregation, the apostles and elders in Jerusalem acted in a representative way, making decisions for the entire Christian congregation. (Acts 15:1, 2) The decisions of this first-century governing body were transmitted to the congregations by means of letters and traveling representatives. The early Christians were happy to receive this clear direction, and their willing cooperation with the governing body promoted peace and unity.—Acts 15:22-31; 16:4, 5; Philippians 2:2.</div>
^{<div align="left">11} As in early Christian times, a small group of spirit-anointed overseers make up the Governing Body of Christ&#39;s followers on earth today. By means of his "right hand" of applied power, Christ, the Head of the congregation, directs these faithful men as they supervise the Kingdom work. (Revelation 1:16, 20) In his life story, Albert Schroeder, a longtime member of the Governing Body who recently finished his earthly course, wrote: "The Governing Body meets every Wednesday, opening the meeting with prayer and asking for the direction of Jehovah&#39;s spirit. A real effort is made to see that every matter that is handled and every decision that is made is in harmony with God&#39;s Word the Bible." We can have confidence in such faithful anointed Christians. Regarding them in particular, we should heed the apostle Paul&#39;s injunction: "Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over your souls."—Hebrews 13:17.</div>
<div align="center">Showing Due Respect for the Faithful Slave</div>
^{<div align="left">12} A fundamental reason for showing proper respect for the faithful slave class is that by so doing, we are in fact showing respect for the Master, Jesus Christ. Paul wrote of the anointed ones: "He that was called when a freeman is a slave of Christ. You were bought with a price." (1 Corinthians 7:22, 23; Ephesians 6:6) Therefore, when we loyally submit to the direction of the faithful slave and its Governing Body, we are submitting to Christ, the slave&#39;s Master. Our showing due respect for the instrument Christ is using to manage his earthly belongings is one way in which we "openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."—Philippians 2:11.</div>
^{<div align="left">13} Another Scriptural reason for showing respect for the faithful slave is that anointed Christians on earth are figuratively spoken of as a "temple" that Jehovah inhabits "by spirit." As such, they are "holy." (1 Corinthians 3:16, 17; Ephesians 2:19-22) It is to this holy temple class that Jesus has entrusted his earthly belongings, which means that certain rights and responsibilities within the Christian congregation belong exclusively to this collective slave. For this reason, all in the congregation view it as their sacred duty to follow and uphold the direction coming from the faithful slave and its Governing Body. Indeed, the "other sheep" count it a real privilege to assist the slave class in caring for the Master&#39;s interests.—John 10:16.</div>
<div align="center">Giving Loyal Support</div>
^{<div align="left">14} The humble submission of the other sheep to the anointed members of spiritual Israel was foretold in the prophecy of Isaiah: "This is what Jehovah has said: &#39;The unpaid laborers of Egypt and the merchants of Ethiopia and the Sabeans, tall men, will themselves come over even to you, and yours they will become. Behind you they will walk; in fetters they will come over, and to you they will bow down. To you they will pray, saying, "Indeed God is in union with you, and there is no one else; there is no other God."&#39;" (Isaiah 45:14) Symbolically, the other sheep today walk behind the anointed slave class and its Governing Body, following their leadership. As "unpaid laborers," the other sheep willingly expend their physical strength and their resources in support of the worldwide preaching work that Christ assigned to his anointed followers on earth.—Acts 1:8; Revelation 12:17.</div>
^{<div align="left">15} The other sheep are happy and grateful to serve Jehovah under the oversight of the slave class and its Governing Body. They recognize the anointed as members of "the Israel of God." (Galatians 6:16) As figurative "strangers" and "foreigners" associated with spiritual Israel, they joyfully serve as "farmers" and "vinedressers" under the direction of the anointed, the "priests of Jehovah" and &#39;ministers of God.&#39; (Isaiah 61:5, 6) They zealously share in preaching this good news of the Kingdom and in making disciples of people of all the nations. They give wholehearted assistance to the slave class in shepherding and nurturing newly found sheeplike ones.</div>
^{<div align="left">16} The other sheep recognize that they have greatly benefited from the diligent efforts of the faithful slave in supplying them with timely spiritual food. They humbly acknowledge that were it not for the faithful and discreet slave, they would know little or nothing of precious Bible truths, such as Jehovah&#39;s sovereignty, the sanctification of his name, the Kingdom, the new heavens and new earth, the soul, the condition of the dead, and the true identity of Jehovah, his Son, and the holy spirit. Out of sheer gratitude and loyalty, the other sheep lovingly support Christ&#39;s anointed "brothers" on the earth during this time of the end.—Matthew 25:40.</div>
^{<div align="left">17} In view of their diminishing numbers, the anointed cannot be present in all congregations to ensure the management of Christ&#39;s belongings. Consequently, the Governing Body appoints men from among the other sheep to positions of oversight in branch offices, districts, circuits, and congregations of Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses. Does our attitude toward these undershepherds have a bearing on our loyalty to Christ and his faithful slave? This will be considered in the following article.</div>
</span></span>

[shikinah]

All i can say is E&E is that when Jesus said in Mathew that people would not know the way out and become stumbled, its so true. I use to think this applied mostly to the world, but now i see the bigger picture. The only thing we can do, is despite what we may know about the organisation, is to remain loyal to it as Jehovah has used it to make his name known. Only if it made public knowledge that it was part of the UN and was taking part in a joint one religious order, then i would have to do as it said in revelations "get out of her my people" untill then all we can do is wait on Jehovah for direction. We are so near the end we need to be cautious as to snares and traps of satan. But in my heart i believe Jehovah will reveal all which is hidden in due time. Praise Jah that we can come together like we do and share each others thoughts and support one another sister as we enter these turbulant times.

Sisterly Love

Elizabeth

[Molly]

Hi All-

Maybe I&#39;m missing something here, but if Christ hasn&#39;t returned and hasn&#39;t separated the sheep and the goats, then he hasn&#39;t examined the slaves to see if they were faithful or not yet. Therefore, noone has been placed over the household as the faithful and discreet slave yet.

Further, while many have been called and some few are chosen, I don&#39;t believe that anyone is yet anointed. That won&#39;t happen until he arrives and holy spirit is poured out. At that point no one with holy spirit will need to be instructed about what is correct and what is false, "for they will all know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them."(Jer. 31:34) In the first century the anointing was necessary to jump start the congregations and prove that this was The Way. For instance, speaking in different languages allowed the word to be spread much more easily than if one first had to learn a new language. After the first century and many congregations had been established there was no longer the same need for the anointing and these special gifts. If those who claim to be anointed actually were, then they would have accurate knowledge and probably various special gifts. Additionally, the idea of their shining brightly may be literal, as it was when Moses communicated with God. When the chosen are anointed, I think that it will be obvious to anyone that has any interest in the matter.

Anyhow, that is my take on the issue. Others may feel differently.

Molly

[stayawake]

IF one is waiting for the WT to apologize to a partnership to the UN thru membership as a NGO, it will never happen

Does not Jehovah exist outside of this WT organization. ?
Does the WT own Jehovah God Himself ?
The GB has already usurped Jesus as Head of the true body members of Christ , now the mind set coming from them is to replace their Creator Jehovah God with a man made Organization.

The WT was a tool that Jehovah used to gather up His sons that were scattered.
Pastor Russell had the strong desire to search the scriptures and the means to share his findings using the WT magazine. It was time for the wheat to start growing again, Satan also had his seed of weeds growing right among the wheat,.
This is what we have here.

Jehovah is no longer using the WT tool , it&#39;s done its job, and in the end has proved unfaithful . In time again , Pastor Russell became presumptuous and ran ahead of Jehovah , walked into the Bethel dining room one morning and declared that the presence of the Lord had arrived and they were all going to be gathered to him. (Christ ) . This is were the ERROR or the lie entered the Temple of God . This lie is what the WT teachings now are built on.
Read carefully.
Paul is warning his true brothers in Christ not to be deceived by this statement ,because it did not come from them (the true brothers )
2 Thess 2 :1-3

Pastor Russell directed us to Gods word ,thru the WT , that&#39;s where we all received our core Bible doctrines . This is our foundation. The rock.
This is what separates us from Christendom . We are to build our faith on this Rock , that&#39;s supported with Gods word, nothing more.

The scriptures tell us that when Christ arrives it is then that he asks
&#39;Who really is the FDS that&#39;s giving the proper food at the proper time?

Scripture proves that it certainly is not the GB, they hold fast to the Error that was presented , that Paul said not to get excited about because it would not be truth.
But that Lie would provide the needed clue that Christ would not come unless the apostasy would come first.

Back to the slave giving the proper food at the proper time,
Who was it that was enlightened to see that the apostasy was sitting right in Gods Temple. ? 2 Thess 2: 4-12 Certainly isn&#39;t the WT.

This tells us who the FDS will be. that will receive all Christ spiritual belongings.
Those who are loyal to Jehovah and not a organization
will be the Two witnesses that Jah is going to use to preach the Good news of Gods Messianic Kingdom
,they will be gathering the GC out of all the nations, along with a message of doom for this present system of things, Directing them to Gods Kingdom. (This is pictured by the sackcloth and ashes. )


, no doubt their are some true sons of God or brothers of Christ lurking here, and thousands that are scattered that already took sides with Jehovah.
Rev 12 :17 Matt 24 :31.

We here that have taken sides with Jehovah, are the Brides Companions .
We will be judged on that basis during the true sons 3 1/2 year mission. , Matt 25 :31-46

Well anyway this is how I see scripture
So they are just my thoughts
love stayawake

[SlaveForJah]

I would like to just add that paragraphs 12, 13, 14 and 16 were most
troublesome to me.[/b]

Boy you said it E&E. I am glad I missed that one before. Had I been at the meeting when that was studied, I can assure you I would have left. That has to be the hands-down-worst, most disgusting piece of self-glorifying, blashpemy I have ever read from the Tower!!! I mean, it&#39;s an all-out assault on Christ&#39;s headship, Christian freedom, and even setting themselves up as God in God&#39;s own Temple. "

Did anyone notice this:
The humble submission of the other sheep to the anointed members of spiritual Israel was foretold in the prophecy of Isaiah: "This is what Jehovah has said: &#39;The unpaid laborers of Egypt and the merchants of Ethiopia and the Sabeans, tall men, will themselves come over even to you, and yours they will become. Behind you they will walk; in fetters they will come over, and to you they will bow down. To you they will pray, saying, "Indeed God is in union with you, and there is no one else; there is no other God."&#39;" (Isaiah 45:14) Symbolically, the other sheep today walk behind the anointed slave class and its Governing Body, following their leadership. As "unpaid laborers," the other sheep willingly expend their physical strength and their resources in support of the worldwide preaching work that Christ assigned to his anointed followers on earth.—Acts 1:8; Revelation 12:17.[/b]

What a bunch of crap! So, according to Jesus, we are NOT to "lord it over" one another, but according to the fallacious, self-appointed Governing Body the "other sheep" are supposed to "bow" :imnotworthy: :imnotworthy: :imnotworthy: to the "Slave, INC."? Who&#39;s words do you value?

Maybe they should just stop lying and twisting scripture. They failed to say what that passage in Isaiah is really about. It&#39;s about Cyrus and his being exalted by Jehovah to a high station. Those who were coming from Egypt and Ethiopia were coming to acknowledge that Cyrus&#39; blessings were not of his own doing, or because he was something great, but because it was Jehovah God who had blessed him. Here&#39;s that passage, for reference.

"1 This is what Jehovah has said to his anointed one, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have taken hold of, to subdue before him nations, so that I may ungird even the hips of kings; to open before him the two-leaved doors, so that even the gates will not be shut: 2 "Before you I myself shall go, and the swells of land I shall straighten out. The copper doors I shall break in pieces, and the iron bars I shall cut down. 3 And I will give you the treasures in the darkness and the hidden treasures in the concealment places, in order that you may know that I am Jehovah, the One calling [you] by your name, the God of Israel. 4 For the sake of my servant Jacob and of Israel my chosen one, I even proceeded to call you by your name; I proceeded to give you a name of honor, although you did not know me. 5 I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. With the exception of me there is no God. I shall closely gird you, although you have not known me, 6 in order that people may know from the rising of the sun and from its setting that there is none besides me. I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. 7 Forming light and creating darkness, making peace and creating calamity, I, Jehovah, am doing all these things.

8 "O YOU heavens, cause a dripping from above; and let the cloudy skies themselves trickle with righteousness. Let the earth open up, and let it be fruitful with salvation, and let it cause righteousness itself to spring up at the same time. I myself, Jehovah, have created it."

9 Woe to the one that has contended with his Former, as an earthenware fragment with the other earthenware fragments of the ground! Should the clay say to its former: "What do you make?" And your achievement [say]: "He has no hands"? 10Woe to the one saying to a father: "What do you become father to?" and to the wife: "What are you in birth pains with?"

11 This is what Jehovah has said, the Holy One of Israel and the Former of him: "Ask me even about the things that are coming concerning my sons; and concerning the activity of my hands YOU people should command me. 12 I myself have made the earth and have created even man upon it. I—my own hands have stretched out the heavens, and all the army of them I have commanded."

13 "I myself have roused up someone in righteousness, and all his ways I shall straighten out. He is the one that will build my city, and those of mine in exile he will let go, not for a price nor for bribery," Jehovah of armies has said.

14 This is what Jehovah has said: "The unpaid laborers of Egypt and the merchants of E·thi·o´pi·a and the Sa·be´ans, tall men, will themselves come over even to you, and yours they will become. Behind you they will walk; in fetters they will come over, and to you they will bow down. To you they will pray, [saying,] &#39;Indeed God is in union with you, and there is no one else; there is no [other] God.&#39;"" - Isaiah 45:1-14

I&#39;m sorry for ranting, but this article just makes me want to vomit. How presumptuous! How sickening and self-aggrandizing! Not to mention the thousand hoops they had to make the Scriptures jump through in order to fit their twisted interpretation. O, Jehovah, when will it end?!? How long will these who have usurped the seat of Moses be allowed to lie in your name?

I haven&#39;t the stomach to continue to disect the depths of treachery in this article. Yuck!!!


Agape

SlaveForJah

[panda]

I think it boils down as to receives if any of them the mark of the beast, maybe they will look to the WT when things are revealed and because of the association with the UN they still stand by them, they receive the mark of the beast.

What if the WT is much more involved with the UN than we originally thought, but even if it is proved publicly for all to see and they still support the WT they would receive the mark of the beast wouldn&#39;t they? or any of us for that matter.

[stayawake]

Quote from SFJ
What a bunch of crap! So, according to Jesus, we are NOT to "lord it over" one another, but according to the fallacious, self-appointed Governing Body the "other sheep" are supposed to "bow" to the "Slave, INC."? Who&#39;s words do you value?

ME : Like in the first century we have the self appointed already ruling as Kings with out Christ Jesus.

SFJ :
Maybe they should just stop lying and twisting scripture. They failed to say what that passage in Isaiah is really about. It&#39;s about Cyrus and his being exalted by Jehovah to a high station. Those who were coming from Egypt and Ethiopia were coming to acknowledge that Cyrus&#39; blessings were not of his own doing, or because he was something great, but because it was Jehovah God who had blessed him. Here&#39;s that passage, for reference.

Me: Now thats what I call searching the scriptures,
You have uncovered a treasure, some thing that is forbidden for us to do on our own.
One can see dear brother, when one does research , that one has Jahs backing,
You uncovered what the man of lawlessness kept hidden,

Your feelings at present are exactly how Jehovah feels. Pro 27:11
I am so happy for you.
love stayawake

[Eyes & Ears]

Yes, SFJ I saw that part also and it just bothered me so much I could not respond to it. Even when I originally read the article, I thought it was quite arrogant and wondered what Jehovah must be thinking about all of that.

Yes, we are in for the fight of our lives are we not. I re-read Watchman&#39;s Essay last night on the Coming Collapse of the WT and it helped me to get a grip. Today when I return from the meeting I am going to re-read some more of the essays and look up the scriptures.


Sometimes I wonder if we are in a TESTING TIME OURSELVES RIGHT NOW. Anyone else feel that way at times? What I mean is how we let the stuff that is going on inside the org affect our relationship with Jehovah.

So much going on. I do realize there are loving elders and so forth. I also realize that they work hard and love the friends, I would be an idiot not to realize that. But nevertheless, there are still awful things going on inside and we need to be aware of these things in order to recognize what Jehovah means by Spirit and Truth. Jehovah does not require we follow anyone blindly. We all know the scriptures on that.

I know we all understand, I am just airing out, just airing out.


The main thing for me is ok now that I understand and am learning more, I am determined more than ever to get to the real meat and strengthen my relationship with Jehovah and his son. I am so thankful that Jehovah is allowing us to see these things so we can get our spiritual house in order and be able to help those who will listen. Those on this board, those we meet informally and those who we can tactfully talk to inside.

My opinion is we are getting deeper and deeper into STINK QUICKSAND AND IF WE ARE NOT GROUNDED WE WILL SINK INTO THE STINK. Satan is very busy I don&#39;t want to miss out on Jehovah&#39;s promises because I REFUSED TO SEE THINGS THAT ARE RIGHT BEFORE MY EYES. I DON&#39;T WANT TO HOLD ON TO EVERYTHING THAT SOMEONE TELLS ME TO BELIEVE JUST BECAUSE THEY TELL ME TO ESPECIALLY WHEN IT DOES NOT LINE UP OR GOES BEYOND WHAT JEHOVAH IS TELLING ME. I don&#39;t want Jehovah to call me a stiff necked Israelite.

I personally will not walk behind and support anyone except Jehovah and his son in a spiritual sense. Have those in leadership positions lost their minds. (DON&#39;T ANSWER WE ALL KNOW THE WHY&#39;S - IT IS JUST MIND BOGGLING WHEN WE FIND SOMETHING ELSE OUT ISN&#39;T IT. We are sharing to build each other up.

I am thankful for this site that allows us to do that.

Hope this makes sense. Exciting, challenging and critical times we are in.

OKEY DOKEY love to you all as I try to ward off this panic attack regarding attending today&#39;s meeting.

Sisterly Love,

E & E

[Utuna]

"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Molly]

Hi Utuna-

Thanks for your response, but you didn&#39;t answer my question because I didn&#39;t ask one.

A lot of people apparently think that chosen=anointed=sealed. There is no reason to think that that is the case. Many times the words say chosen and someone will automaticly insert the word anointed instead. Those that accompany Christ at Armaggedon are called and chosen and faithful, but not necessarily anointed. I believe that the reason it is stated that way is because most will not have been anointed. There was no reason for them to be anointed. They all had to prove faithful until death, regardless of whether they had an extra anointing of holy spirit. The first century anointing was for a special purpose, which after that period of time was no longer needed. It&#39;s probably part of the reason that it took so long for anything to be written down. In the early part of the first century, they all each individually knew what it all meant and they didn&#39;t need anyone else to interpret for them.

During the last days we are specificly told that the anointed will have special abilities to prophesy and have visions and they would ALL (not just a few guys up in the tower) understand completely what the scriptures mean. They won&#39;t be confused and they certainly won&#39;t get it wrong. That is the difference that we are told in Jeremiah, Joel and Revelation to expect. If anyone claims they are anointed I will expect them to be able to prophesy and get it right the first time. No "present truth," no excuses. If they claim to be anointed and get it wrong, they are false prophets. We shouldn&#39;t confuse it with the anointing of a king or a priest from the OT because the role and duties of the anointed in the last days are clearly defined for them. We have an absolute right to expect them to adhere to this standard or be rejected. They will not receive this anointing until after Christ arrives. He hasn&#39;t arrived yet, so there are no anointed at this time, because noone today has the entire understanding of the scriptures.

That how I understand the situation at this time.

Molly

[uglyandthin]

"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton
[/b]


Hi Utuna:

Very good info indeed. Do you think that it is within the realm of possibility that the Governing Body of JW&#39;s in their current form (who clain to still be the FDS) has been judged as unfit by our Lord and Master and that he has appointed someone else whom we do not know as yet, like he (Jehovah) did in the case of David, but which did not become public knowledge or accepted as such for some time as Saul continued to rule even though his rejection by God was quite clear, at least to him and David that is? Just wondering!

uglyandthin

[diamondiiz]

“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings. “But if ever that evil slave should say in his heart, ‘My master is delaying,’ and should start to beat his fellow slaves and should eat and drink with the confirmed drunkards, the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect and in an hour that he does not know, and will punish him with the greatest severity and will assign him his part with the hypocrites. There is where [his] weeping and the gnashing of [his] teeth will be.

Matthew 24 talks about the different signs which would lead to Christ coming or presence? And the end of the system. Personally I&#39;m think the disciples wanted to know what the signs would be so they knew Jesus was returning and weren&#39;t thinking of Christ being present invisibly when they asked for the signs. After various signs given to them, Jesus tells them about the tribulation and where the days would have to be cut short in behalf of the chosen ones. (comparable to 66CE) At that time they have time to escape to the "mountains" and false messiahs appear (Mt 24:23). Afterwards Christ returns with his angels for the harvest (could possible be similar when Romans returned to take over Judea and finally destroy the temple in 70CE, lasting about 3.5 years or wars in Judea)

From Mt 24:32 Jesus uses illustrations to show that the signs will be there for our benefit and to stay awake prior to Christ&#39;s return. If those seeing the signs and doing something about it or feeding their brothers - fellow slaves these would be faithful and would gain reward upon their master&#39;s arrival. But those seeing the sign and assuming that the master is delaying, and they take advantage of their fellow slaves these would turn out to be evil slaves.

So these taking the lead don&#39;t necessarily need to be anointed at the time but they gain the reward after the master return. Thus the evil slave would loose out on the privelage.

Completion of the sealing of 144,000 has to occur some time prior to the releasing of the four winds of the earth(rev 7:1). That could also be the time of Christ&#39;s judging the slaves as to how they performed their tasks with them being rewarded enternal life or eternal destruction according to their deeds. So faithful slave may very well be of the 144000 chosen group after proving themselves faithful not prior.

It&#39;s hard to be certain how the pieces fall into place. Most of the unknown is speculation and an educated guess when it comes to some parables and prophecies dealing with the future. Are 144000 the only ones going to heaven? Or are they chosen as a special group prior to Christ&#39;s judging the world? There is much guessing as to the true meaning of Jesus revelation to John and many parables that he uttered. They may have meaning that we don&#39;t even suspect today but it allows us to ponder on his words and seek deeper meaning into what he said.

[Utuna]

-----------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[uglyandthin]

-----------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton
[/b]

Hi Utuna:

I think you are correct, a terrible time of Judgement is due for the Watchtower and it&#39;s inhabitants. It is my thinking and desire that when this happens that the inhabitants of Nineveh, ehr the Watchtower will repent in sackcloth and ashes and be forgiven by God and his Christ. Not all will, of course, but I hope a majority will.

I look forward to the day when Jehovah raises up his mountain and all the righteous stream to it, including but not limited to the righteous ones in the Watchtower.

uglyandthin

[Utuna]

Dear uglyandthin,

"However, when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, at its festival, many people put their faith in his name, viewing his signs that he was performing. But Jesus himself was not entrusting himself to them because of his knowing them all and because he was in no need to have anyone bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man." - John 2:23-25

Our dear and loving heavenly Father doesn&#39;t judge us according to external criterias. Jesus, our loving Lord, has the same ability, as proven by the verses quoted above.

God is love and I&#39;m sure that Jesus knows what it means more than anyone else. The Jews had seen Jesus accomplishing healings and resurrections, with all the joy and relief that it brought along. Their reactions ? They wanted him to DIE !

Because of a storm having caused much damage in the south of France, just tonight on the French TV, many persons were willing to offer a helping hand to their neighbours. Those persons might not have accurate knowledge of our loving God, but I&#39;m sure that they&#39;ll know what to do when the two witnesses perform miracles and perform loving powerful signs as compared with the fire coming from heaven performed by the false prophet.

Instantaneous strong faith might be the privilege of anointed ones, but those who love earnestly their fellow men won&#39;t hesitate to take their decision when they&#39;re soon confronted with vital dilemmas. When Jehovah raises up his moutain, many, many and many more than just those belonging to the Watchtower will stream to it. Is it not foretold by the manyfold Egyptians who followed the Jews when they departed from Egypt ?

Regarding the respect owed to anointed ones, I&#39;ve read this verse this afternoon (GMT time) :

"Then Paul said to him: "God is going to strike you, you whitewashed wall. Do you at one and the same time sit to judge me in accord with the Law and, transgressing the Law, command me to be struck?" Those standing by said: "Are you reviling the high priest of God?" And Paul said: "Brothers, I did not know he was high priest. For it is written, &#39;You must not speak injuriously of a ruler of your people." - Acts 23:3-5

Jewish leaders were far from deserving such an honor. However, Paul felt regret for having uttered such unintentional bad words. We have to remember that Jesus was dead since many years. Nevertheless, Paul regretted having offended the high priest. Sure that it is a lesson for us to consider in prayer.

-----------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[uglyandthin]

Dear uglyandthin,

"However, when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, at its festival, many people put their faith in his name, viewing his signs that he was performing. But Jesus himself was not entrusting himself to them because of his knowing them all and because he was in no need to have anyone bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man." - John 2:23-25

Our dear and loving heavenly Father doesn&#39;t judge us according to external criterias. Jesus, our loving Lord, has the same ability, as proven by the verses quoted above.

God is love and I&#39;m sure that Jesus knows what it means more than anyone else. The Jews had seen Jesus accomplishing healings and resurrections, with all the joy and relief that it brought along. Their reactions ? They wanted him to DIE !

Because of a storm having caused much damage in the south of France, just tonight on the French TV, many persons were willing to offer a helping hand to their neighbours. Those persons might not have accurate knowledge of our loving God, but I&#39;m sure that they&#39;ll know what to do when the two witnesses perform miracles and perform loving powerful signs as compared with the fire coming from heaven performed by the false prophet.

Instantaneous strong faith might be the privilege of anointed ones, but those who love earnestly their fellow men won&#39;t hesitate to take their decision when they&#39;re soon confronted with vital dilemmas. When Jehovah raises up his moutain, many, many and many more than just those belonging to the Watchtower will stream to it. Is it not foretold by the manyfold Egyptians who followed the Jews when they departed from Egypt ?

Regarding the respect owed to anointed ones, I&#39;ve read this verse this afternoon (GMT time) :

"Then Paul said to him: "God is going to strike you, you whitewashed wall. Do you at one and the same time sit to judge me in accord with the Law and, transgressing the Law, command me to be struck?" Those standing by said: "Are you reviling the high priest of God?" And Paul said: "Brothers, I did not know he was high priest. For it is written, &#39;You must not speak injuriously of a ruler of your people." - Acts 23:3-5

Jewish leaders were far from deserving such an honor. However, Paul felt regret for having uttered such unintentional bad words. We have to remember that Jesus was dead since many years. Nevertheless, Paul regretted having offended the high priest. Sure that it is a lesson for us to consider in prayer.

-----------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton[/b]

Hi Utuna:

What was it about my last comment that you were commenting on, I am a little bit lost?

uglyandthin

[DoubtingThomas]

What an interesting topic this is you started FSJ.

Just standing back here, and reading these post from a distance (taking no sides), gives me a unique perspective.

I Say This: "Robert King is a member of the FDS". Why???

Because he is "feeding the domestics" by using his personal resources such as this web site.

[Utuna]

"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Utuna]

"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Eyes & Ears]

"As for the perpetrators of the operation of error, their deeds will be revealed soon as well as the wickedness of their heart. To err is human, to persist is of the Devil." :y:


Amen to that Utuna.

Sisterly Love,

E & E

[diamondiiz]

I think you are correct, a terrible time of Judgement is due for the Watchtower and it&#39;s inhabitants. It is my thinking and desire that when this happens that the inhabitants of Nineveh, ehr the Watchtower will repent in sackcloth and ashes and be forgiven by God and his Christ. Not all will, of course, but I hope a majority will.

uglyandthin[/b]

If WTS is as Christendom and when her judgement comes people should have an oppertunity to flee it&#39;s domain. When Romans came up against Jerusalem in 66CE it could have been all over for Christians but they recieved an oppertunity to flee it&#39;s domain. Judea was conquered with final battle at Masada. Now, if Jesus&#39;s words are to have a greater fullfillment in future time we should expect something spectacular to occur within WTS domain. This should open everyone&#39;s eyes and those seeking truth will leave and flee. Those of other Churches could very well take note as well.
Whatever the event may be, it should be comparable to 66CE where everyone will notice and will realise that it&#39;s a major event. There will be those false massiahs like in Jerusalem who will claim that God is with them and they will hold up the fort as it were. How many people will follow such ones we will find out but the honest hearted should realize the oppertunity to get out of her. Comparably, the trigger event may (or should) also affect all other churches where World Government or similar body will conquere religions with the biggest at the end. Would WTS fall comparably to Jerusalem or more like Masada???

Why must we say that WTS is God&#39;s organization or ever was? It has snared God loving people in it&#39;s net and many are trapped in there without knowing a way out. From the beginning it&#39;s decieved the people and the time will come for it&#39;s inhabitants to be released. It&#39;s hard to have a view that WTS was never God&#39;s chosen nation even though the people in it may be. One should distinquish the Corporation and it&#39;s leaders from the people that are ignorant of the facts and are trying to follow Christ as per WTS instructions. God may be using WTS to do his will but we must remember that He will also use Gog of Magog. Also Jehovah used Babylon to capture Jerusalem and take captives who were in fact preserved alive even though in captivity. Just because Jehovah used nations to gather his people in ways doesn&#39;t necessarily mean they were part of his organization.

PS. My dilema is that if WTS lied from it&#39;s inception I must question much of their teachings that aren&#39;t "black and white" in the bible and I have to re-examine everything with all possibilities being open. That&#39;s why when I write things may not be anywhere close in line with WTS teachings. With prophecies relating to the last days, and return of Jesus we only have similarities of first century to relate to and compare those to today since Christ&#39;s words related to 70CE era and the end of the entire system of things.

[SlaveForJah]

What an interesting topic this is you started FSJ.

Just standing back here, and reading these post from a distance (taking no sides), gives me a unique perspective.

I Say This: "Robert King is a member of the FDS". Why???

Because he is "feeding the domestics" by using his personal resources such as this web site.[/b]


First of all, let me say thank you to all who have contributed to this thread. I believe that this issue is of vital importance to all whose lives have been touched by the Watchtower.

I&#39;d like to pick up on something DT said, as it cuts to the core of my initial questions. DT said:
I Say This: "Robert King is a member of the FDS".[/b]

My question, as it pertains to DT&#39;s statement, is this: Where in the Scripture, either in Matthew, or in Luke, does it say or even imply that the "faithful and discreet slave" or "the faithful steward, the discreet one" is a class or group necessitating membership? Where in either Scripture does it say or even imply that the "faithful and discreet slave" should be Capitalized and turned into a Title or Office?

I know we have all had years and years, even decade upon decade of indoctrination from the Tower that Jesus was speaking of a future incarnation of the Watchtower Society when answering the apostles. However, I ask you all to look at the text carefully. Where does Christ allude to any corporate body as fulfilling his words?

In fact, look at the subtle word substitution that the Watchtower employs in order to prop up its own position. This excerpt is taken from the 12/1/81 Watchtower that E&E quoted on the Questions From Readers (http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2420&pid=25351&st=0&#entry25351) thread.


⁵ Regarding God&#39;s channel of communication, Jesus said that the "faithful and discreet slave" would provide spiritual nourishment at the right time for all his followers and that he would set this "slave" over all his belongings.[/b](emphasis mine)

Well, Jesus did not SAY...he ASKED. This was meant to be a question over which each of his disciples present would personally ponder. It was not meant to be some abstract concept that would only be discovered at the turn of the 20th Century. It was to have application to them then, at that time. It was meant to prompt them to become faithful stewards of the commission that the Lord had given them.

I do personally believe that Brother King fits the description of one that Christ will likely find to be &#39;faithfully and discreetly&#39; fulfilling his duties. However, I do not believe that Jesus&#39; finding Robert "good and faithful" is predicated on him being a "member" of a group, class, or fraternity as such. In fact, while I do believe Robert&#39;s claims to be of the anointed - for I have no reason to disbelieve him - I do not believe it is necessary that the "faithful and discreet slave" are exclusively to be found among the anointed.

Was Christ establishing a heirarchy with this question? or was he offering a touchstone for all his followers to undertake a profound, deep, self-examination as to their motives and fruitage, and a personal accounting of what each had done with the "talents" that had been given them by the Master? Personally, I believe it was the latter. I see nowhere in the text that would lend itself to the creation of a de facto fraternal order or other such subset of followers by those who only days later were reminded that they were not to lord it over one another precisely due to the fact that they were brothers.

I would appreciate any further thoughts or comments on this matter.


Agape

SlaveForJah

[truthseeker]

<div class='quotemain'>What an interesting topic this is you started FSJ.

Just standing back here, and reading these post from a distance (taking no sides), gives me a unique perspective.

I Say This: "Robert King is a member of the FDS". Why???

Because he is "feeding the domestics" by using his personal resources such as this web site.[/b]


First of all, let me say thank you to all who have contributed to this thread. I believe that this issue is of vital importance to all whose lives have been touched by the Watchtower.

I&#39;d like to pick up on something DT said, as it cuts to the core of my initial questions. DT said:
I Say This: "Robert King is a member of the FDS".[/b]

My question, as it pertains to DT&#39;s statement, is this: Where in the Scripture, either in Matthew, or in Luke, does it say or even imply that the "faithful and discreet slave" or "the faithful steward, the discreet one" is a class or group necessitating membership? Where in either Scripture does it say or even imply that the "faithful and discreet slave" should be Capitalized and turned into a Title or Office?

I know we have all had years and years, even decade upon decade of indoctrination from the Tower that Jesus was speaking of a future incarnation of the Watchtower Society when answering the apostles. However, I ask you all to look at the text carefully. Where does Christ allude to any corporate body as fulfilling his words?

In fact, look at the subtle word substitution that the Watchtower employs in order to prop up its own position. This excerpt is taken from the 12/1/81 Watchtower that E&E quoted on the Questions From Readers (http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2420&pid=25351&st=0&#entry25351) thread.


⁵ Regarding God&#39;s channel of communication, Jesus said that the "faithful and discreet slave" would provide spiritual nourishment at the right time for all his followers and that he would set this "slave" over all his belongings.[/b](emphasis mine)

Well, Jesus did not SAY...he ASKED. This was meant to be a question over which each of his disciples present would personally ponder. It was not meant to be some abstract concept that would only be discovered at the turn of the 20th Century. It was to have application to them then, at that time. It was meant to prompt them to become faithful stewards of the commission that the Lord had given them.

I do personally believe that Brother King fits the description of one that Christ will likely find to be &#39;faithfully and discreetly&#39; fulfilling his duties. However, I do not believe that Jesus&#39; finding Robert "good and faithful" is predicated on him being a "member" of a group, class, or fraternity as such. In fact, while I do believe Robert&#39;s claims to be of the anointed - for I have no reason to disbelieve him - I do not believe it is necessary that the "faithful and discreet slave" are exclusively to be found among the anointed.

Was Christ establishing a heirarchy with this question? or was he offering a touchstone for all his followers to undertake a profound, deep, self-examination as to their motives and fruitage, and a personal accounting of what each had done with the "talents" that had been given them by the Master? Personally, I believe it was the latter. I see nowhere in the text that would lend itself to the creation of a de facto fraternal order or other such subset of followers by those who only days later were reminded that they were not to lord it over one another precisely due to the fact that they were brothers.

I would appreciate any further thoughts or comments on this matter.


Agape

SlaveForJah
[/b][/quote]

<span style="font-family:Times New Roman"> Truthseeker

[panda]

The Wt study June 15 "The faithful steward and it Governing Body" uses Gal 2:7-10 to confirm the 1st century appointment of the governing body in Jerusalem. They also say that not all of the FDS have been appointed over the belongings of Christ, the GC and all the earthly possessions. they use (1Cor. 12:29) and reason Although all spirit-begotten Christians engaged in the preaching work, only a very limited number just eight different men were used to write the 27 books of the Christian Greek Scriptures.
The article goes on the say that each individual member of the anointed does not have to be consulted when decisions are made, Paul never consulted other when making decisions back in the 1st Century. para 9,10

In study WT Feb 15th They "Keep following the Lamb" para 3 says. Jesus has appointed the faithful and discreet slave "over his domestics," that is, the individual members of the slave class, "to give them their food at the proper time;" He has also appointed the slave "over all his belongings. Matt. 24:45-47) The belongings include the GC of other sheep (Rev.7:9 Jhn 10:16) Should not individual members of the anointed and other sheep trust the slave appointed over them? There are many reasons why the slave class deserves our trust. Two outstanding reasons are (1) Jehovah trusts the slave class. (2) Jesus also trusts the slave.

This is the second article that they are really trying to convince b/s and new ones of the trust in the GB Jehovah and Christ has, both articles are similar, but one would image that they have been getting a lot of inquiries about their position or one asking question within the congregations.

[panda]

They should change their name then, Governing Body is very political and reminds me of what Paul says at 1Cor 4:8 You men already have your fill, do you? You are rich already, are you? You have begun ruling as kings without us have you? And I wish indeed that you had begun ruling as kings, that we also might rule with you as kings.

I wonder if the rest of Christ brothers feel this way. why not just call themselves brothers in Brooklyn or brothers in union with all, Jesus said we are all one, not separate classes of people. Matt 23:8

[truthseeker]

They should change their name then, Governing Body is very political and reminds me of what Paul says at 1Cor 4:8 You men already have your fill, do you? You are rich already, are you? You have begun ruling as kings without us have you? And I wish indeed that you had begun ruling as kings, that we also might rule with you as kings.

I wonder if the rest of Christ brothers feel this way. why not just call themselves brothers in Brooklyn or brothers in union with all, Jesus said we are all one, not separate classes of people. Matt 23:8[/b]

The GB could change there title to “Older Men of New York” or Bethel

[Utuna]

------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Rogue]

[<span style="font-family:Times New Roman">Truthseeker[/b]

I find it very interesting that we base our GB doctrine on Acts 15... first of all, I must say it is odd to say the least that we have to extract such an important theocratic arrangement as having annoited governing over their brothers from something that MIGHT be SOMEWHAT implied in the scriptures... as I have said on another topic: if Jesus found in needed for the congregations to have an overseeing umbrella institution, such as the GB, WHY didn&#39;t he specificly mention this ANYWHERE? The scriptures give guidelines for elders, ministry servants, even fathers, mothers and children... why doesn&#39;t it give ANY guidelines or specific regulations for a governing body... since it is such an important overseeing umbrella organ, that has almost unlimited authority over their brothers, wouldn&#39;t it be necessary to set up some specific guidelines for the brothers who would assume this very responsible job? Why doesn&#39;t the scripture say: Jesus is head of the Governing Body and the GB is head of the congregation? This &#39;step&#39; is nowhere mentioned and hardly implied... just take a close look at what Acts 15 really says! "1 (http://) And certain men came down from Ju·de´a and began to teach the brothers: “Unless YOU get circumcised according to the custom of Moses, YOU cannot be saved.” 2 (http://) But when there had occurred no little dissension and disputing by Paul and Bar´na·bas with them, they arranged for Paul and Bar´na·bas and some others of them to go up to the apostles and older men in Jerusalem regarding this dispute."
Now, why did Paul and Barnabas go to Jerusalem? Because they had enough of this false doctrine and went to Jerusalem, to the source of the doctrine!
"4 (http://) On arriving in Jerusalem they were kindly received by the congregation and the apostles and the older men, and they recounted the many things God had done by means of them. 5 (http://) Yet, some of those of the sect of the Pharisees that had believed rose up from their seats and said: “It is necessary to circumcise them and charge them to observe the law of Moses.”
Again we see that in the midst of the congregation of Jerusalem were the people who taught the false doctrine! Therefor it was necesarry for Paul and Barnabas to see the elders of that congregation, because they needed to settle this affair!
"13. After they quit speaking, James answered, saying: “Men, brothers, hear me....19 (http://) Hence my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God, 20 (http://) but to write them to abstain from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood"
This doesn&#39;t seem to be a decision a group of governing annoited make... James is the one who makes the decision.
"22 (http://) Then the apostles and the older men together with the whole congregation favored sending chosen men from among them to Antioch along with Paul and Bar´na·bas, namely, Judas who was called Bar´sab·bas and Silas, leading men among the brothers; 23 (http://) and by their hand they wrote:"
This was also not a decision by a group of governing annointed, the whole congregation had a vote as well!! That looks nothing like modern day governing of the Society does it!
But it does agree with Jesus view that ALL brothers were equal and that they should not lord over eachother, like the nations around them did!
Also, it is logical that the elders of Jerusalem send letters to other congregations to inform them that the false doctrine THAT THESE CONGREGATIONS HAD ALSO BEEN CONTAMENATED WITH had been dealt with! You can compare it to modern day elders, who settle a dispute in a congregation, and maybe inform elders of other congregations that might have been involved! This also doesn&#39;t proove there was a governing body.

In Galatians 2 Paul recounts the happenings of his visit to Jerusalem, and again he talks about the false brothers that were there, "who sneaked in to spy upon our freedom which we have in union with Christ Jesus, that they might completely enslave us— 5 (http://) to these we did not yield by way of submission, no, not for an hour, in order that the truth of the good news might continue with YOU."
6 (http://) But on the part of those who seemed to be something—whatever sort of men they formerly were makes no difference to me—God does not go by a man’s outward appearance—to me, in fact, those outstanding men imparted nothing new. 7 (http://) But, on the contrary, when they saw that I had entrusted to me the good news for those who are uncircumcised, just as Peter [had it] for those who are circumcised— 8 (http://) for He who gave Peter powers necessary for an apostleship to those who are circumcised gave powers also to me for those who are of the nations; 9 (http://) yes, when they came to know the undeserved kindness that was given me, James and Ce´phas and John, the ones who seemed to be pillars, gave me and Bar´na·bas the right hand of sharing together, that we should go to the nations, but they to those who are circumcised.

Paul was not at all impressed by those WHO SEEMED TO BE SOMETHING, but in fact taught THEM the good news about the nations that he was preaching to... he had to teach them new insight, not the other way arround... you would expect that it would be the other way around if they were a GB and Gods channel on earth, than they would have told HIM the new insights! Paul does agree that the apostles were pillars, and that makes sense, they were the ones who had been by Jesus side and who had heard his teachings from his mouth, it makes sense that they started the congregations and layed a foundation for Christians, they were the pillars of true faith... but because they were "founding fathers" it doesn;t mean they were a GB and that, after they died this role was taken on by others... they did what they had to do and after they died, the congrations were under direct leadership of Jesus... NOWHERE in the bible is it mentioned that they needed to be succeeded by others who would take the role of GB on them... and there is certainly not any evidence that in our present days we need to have a GB... in fact, it is clear from Jesus teachings that he didn&#39;t want his followers to govern over eachother, didn&#39;t he make that clear constantly?

[Rogue]

They should change their name then, Governing Body is very political and reminds me of what Paul says at 1Cor 4:8 You men already have your fill, do you? You are rich already, are you? You have begun ruling as kings without us have you? And I wish indeed that you had begun ruling as kings, that we also might rule with you as kings.

I wonder if the rest of Christ brothers feel this way. why not just call themselves brothers in Brooklyn or brothers in union with all, Jesus said we are all one, not separate classes of people. Matt 23:8[/b]

In my post I wanted to cite the text about them already ruling as kings and how Paul dissaproves of that, but u already did ;)
That is also an important point: was it Jesus plan that the annointed would already rule over the other sheep when they were still on earth, being imperfect men? Why would Paul say that the ones who had already begun ruling as kings, were wrong in doing so? Because while the brothers are all still on earth and all imperfect, they are all equal... only when the annointed are resurrected and have received their reward and their crown, they are fit to rule at Jesus side... so what makes them think they can already rule over their brothers? Good point sis!

[Utuna]

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"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[uglyandthin]

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"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton
[/b]


Hi Utuna:

I agree with your statement about the moral lesson Jesus was teaching his disciples (both those he was actually with on that occassion and us today), but I think there is also another message very important for our day. Just as the image (of a man) in Daniel 2 is a timeline that runs from Nebuchadnezzar to our modern day, the human body acts in the same way in this lesson and symbolism from Jesus. He is telling us that his flesh (the disciples were his flesh then as are the members of his bride today are his flesh. Married couples become 1 flesh) would need a washing when we reach the point of the feet on this symbolic timeline of his flesh and sure enough his bride ( or at least the feet of his bride, the last remaining ones in contact with the earth, and also still alive) needs a real good cleaning. They are unclean from thier lack of repentance for all the wrongdoing they have committed during these times from thier illicit relationship with the U.N. to thier killing of all the Prophets that Jehovah has sent to her. These feet are dirty and smelly. Jesus will be the one doing the cleaning to these feet as well with the lye of the laundryman and the smelting process.

uglyandthin

[SlaveForJah]

FJW said that when the Watchtower is destroyed we will know who the 144,000 really are. My question is twofold then: Is the "faithful and discreet slave" the same as the 144,000? And even if they are, why is it important for us to know WHO is truly one of the 144,000?[/b]

Not to hijack this thread back, but I was looking over the discussion here, and I see that the questions asked above have not been answered. Does anyone have any answers?


Agape

SlaveForJah

[The Bible Student]

<div class='quotemain'>FJW said that when the Watchtower is destroyed we will know who the 144,000 really are. My question is twofold then: Is the "faithful and discreet slave" the same as the 144,000? And even if they are, why is it important for us to know WHO is truly one of the 144,000?[/b]


Agape

SlaveForJah
[/b][/quote]

Dear slave,

hi we havent met yet, but, 75 days before satan comes down, the 1335 days begin, at this point this could be when the 5th seal is opened, whereby the blood of Jehovahs holy ones call out for justice and are given white robes. This period is just immediate to satan being casted down, i.e, this side of wild beasts reign.

As for the fds, yeah how do we know it? But at Matt 25:31 is when christ comes and the slaves will be apportioned their rewards accordingly, some will even be tossed outside with the rest of the unbelievers....so who really is this slave? the bible only says they will be apportioned over the belongings on the masters arrival if that master finds him doing Jehovahs will., at the conclusion, and remember the wheat and the weeds grow alongside until the reapers come.

There are some of us that know what is coming soon, but wt calls us apostates, so who will listen to us? why do we have this special information, why only a few? and jesus warned when we see the beast we must flee. His rule will be for 1260 days or 3.5 years as we know, and interstingly enough the period between 66-70 was 42 months. My point, I have prayed long asking for the answer how the rest of Gods house will be warned so they too can know what we know and act on it, but like 66-70, there will be some that will remain in their disbeleif and pay for it, even with their very lives.

So, if the fds are not warning Gods people today, who will do this work, how can it be done, and the slave today really have become a sluggish slave that have buried the talents that were given them to do Jehovahs special work,this being also symbolised in the parable of the wise and the foolish virgins, so who then who are the fds? How will we know it? I guess, when the master finally arrives, then we will know who has done Gods will and who hasnt.

we do know that soon, very soon, the last two witneses arrive and do another kind preaching work as stated in revelation 10....are these two also the elijah that is to come to restore all things before jehovahs fear inspiring day arrives? Could they also be the faithful and discreet slave that will distribute the true food before their mission ends ans Gods people are attacked?.

Maybe they are more than two men, maybe a group symbolised by these two men? Maybe this group are of a larger number than we realise?

Best wishes

The bible student