When Does The Calling Of Christians Of Heavenly Hope Cese?

[Viking]

This stuff has dynamite. Now we will see how the doctrine changes and perhaps the memorial parttakers will never been counted.
the light gets brighter, the personal conscinece does not count, only what is told from the Tower is valid.

[DoubtingThomas]

Here is a copy of that WT QFR for those who don't have one:

When does the calling of Christians to a heavenly hope cease?

The Bible does not reveal a precise answer to that question. We do know that the anointing of Jesus' disciples with a view to their heavenly inheritance began in 33 C.E. (Acts 2:1-4) We also know that after the death of the apostles, genuine anointed Christian "wheat" came to "grow together" with counterfeit Christians, "weeds." (Matthew 13:34-30) Then, starting in the late 1800s, anointed Christians were again prominently active. In 1919 "the harvest of the earth," including the gathering of the final ones of the anointed, began to be reaped._ Revelation 14: 15, 16

From the late 1800s until 1931, the main thrust of the preaching work was the gathering of the remaining members of the body of Christ. In 1931 the Bible Students took the Bible-based name Jehovah's Witnesses, and in the November 15, 1933, issue of The Watchtower, the thought was expressed that this unique name was the "denarius" referred to in Jesus' parable recorded at Matthew 20: 1-16. The 12 hours mentioned in the parable were thought to correspond to the 12 years from 1919 to 1931. For many years after that, it was believed that the call to the heavenly Kingdom had ended in 1931 and that those called to be joint heirs with Christ in 1930 and 1931 were "the last" called. (Matthew 20:6-8) However, in 1966 an adjusted undersanding of that parable was presented, and it became clear that it had nothing to do with the end of the calling of the anointed.

In 1935 the "great crowd" of Revelation 7:9-15 was understood to be made up of "other sheep," Christians with an earthly hope, who would appear on the world scene in "the last days" and who as a group would survive Armageddon. (John 10:16; 2 Timothy 3:1; Revelation 21:3, 4) After that year, the thrust of the disciple-making work turned to the gathering in of the great crowd. Hence, especially after 1966 it was believed that the heavenly call ceased in 1935. This seemed to be confirmed when almost all who were baptized after 1935 felt that they had the earthly hope. Thereafter, any called to the heavenly hope were believed to be replacements for anointed Christians who had proved unfaithful.

Without a doubt, if one of the anointed unrepentatnly falls away, Jehovah does call another individual to take his place. (Romans 11:17-22) However, the number of genuine anointed ones who have become unfatihful is likely not large. On the other hand, as time has gone by, some Christians baptized afte 1935 have had witness borne to them that they have the heavenly hope. (Romans 8:16, 17) Thus, it appears that we cannot set a specific date for when the calling of Christians to the heavenly hope ends.

How should a person be viewed who has determined in his heart that he is now anointed and begins to partake of the emblems at the Memorial? He should not be judged. The matter is between him and Jehovah. (Romans 14:12) However, genuine anointed Christian do not demand special attention. They do not believe that their being of the anointed gives them special "insights" beyond what even some experienced members of the great crowd may have. They do not believe that they necessarily have more holy spirit than their companions of the other sheep have; nor do they expect special treatment or claim that their partaking of the emblems places them above the appointed elders in the congregation. They humbly remember that some anointed men in the first century did not qualify to serve as elders or ministerial servants. (1 timothy 3:1-10, 12, 13; Titus 1:5-9; James 3:1) Some anointed Christians were even spiritually weak. (1Thessalonians 5:14) And sisters, although anointed, did not teach in the congregation.--1 Timothy 2:11,12

Hence, anointed Christians along with their other sheep companions strive to stay spiritually strong, cultivating the fruitage of the spirit and working for the peace of the congregation. All Christians, whether anointed or of the other sheep, work hard at preaching the good news and making disciples, under the direction of the Governing Body. Anointed Christians are content to do this for as long as it is God's will that they remain on earth as Jehovah's servants.

[Cephalon]

My understanding was always that the Emphasis shifted to the great crowd in 1935 not that the heavenly hope (call) has ceased.

[DoubtingThomas]

It appears to me that the GB is admitting, that they are running the show- NOT the anointed F&D slave class.



They are simply trying to keep everyone obeying the "chain of command". They're at the top, the elders are next, then the pioneers, then the "anointed" of the congregation, then the publishers. If an anointed came along with "special insights" (such as Robert King), they want to make sure that they continue to run the show!!!



This whole article makes it okay for elders, pioneers, anyone who thinks of themselves as hot stuff to ignore, and even persecute, anyone who claims to be of the anointed in the congregation. After all, if you were REALLY one of the anointed, you would be at Bethel or on the GB right? Right!!!!!



And did you notice that everyone- anointed or not, is under the Governing Body's direction? Not God's, Not Jesus', Not the angel flying in midheaven, Not even the dead anointed talking to them, and especially NOT the anointed in some random little town who dares to question the Governing Body!!!



In the study articles in the April 1 Watchtower, several times it used the expression "the anointed and its Governing Body." Does this mean the Governing Body is supposed to be the "steward" put in charge of the faithful and discreet slave?



I wondered where all this is gona lead? Perhaps there will there be a new memorial outline? Perhaps at this summer’s "Follow THE Christ" District Convention we will get a new understanding of the FDS versus the GB?



If all the "anointed" alive in 1935 are now dead, who then are all those 8,000 now partaking? If they are replacements then that is a lot of unfaithful ones. So they are really covering all bases.. if some who may not fit the framework of what they used to equate to the anointed they can now be anointed without everyone lifting an eyebrow.



If the FDS is made up of ALL anointed, then wouldn’t ALL anointed be part of that channel? Also, we had a recent Watchtower that since 1935 the resurrected anointed have been "communicating" "truths" to the GB? For how many years have they told people that this" anointed" group was the direct line to God? and that the small group of "anointed" sitting on their throne was not to be questioned?

As is mentioned on another DB, I can see them asserting the following:

1) We no longer need anointed on the GB since the GB is receiving their information from the (per the recent Watchtower) "resurrected anointed." Whether or not a person is anointed will be irrelevant, since the organization is being directed through the GB, not the FDS (remember, the anointed (FDS) doesn't have any special insights). The GB takes on greater importance, and the FDS fades.

2) Your calling is between you and Jehovah, and it is not worth their time to track the numbers. Since the "calling" can be continuing until the present and beyond, that guarantees that there will still be anointed present for the out break of the GT.

[DoubtingThomas]

This article mentioned that the anointed do not necessarily receive special spiritual insight from Jehovah. Robert King professes to have had a unique spiritual experience of some type that led to his being born again and anointed. This article brought out that we should not judge another who claims to be born again and of that heavenly class. I have no reason not to believe that Brother King is anointed though. What I do know is this – Brother King has special insight in to God’s Word that the GB of JW’s is lacking. So perhaps if this is leading to non-anointed members of the GC being invited to sit on the GB it could be a good thing. Perhaps some fresh set of eyes to look at Bible prophecy other than the current view of the GB could open up a whole new well of fresh spiritual waters for God’s people to drink from with a correct view of prophecies? I won’t hold my breathe though. But it is so obvious that changes are needed for JW’s. Maybe this will open that door for some fresh new ideas that Christ has not arrived yet, and that 1914 is a false doctrine.



All I know is this – I have been better fed spiritually in the brief period of time that I have been at this DB than I have been fed from the so-called table of the GB in many many years now. RK has (what I believe is) a correct understanding of the scriptures in many areas, and he has been diligent in feeding those who want to learn from him. And I for one appreciate this brothers hard work.

[Molly]

Thank you Viking for bringing this to our attention; and
Thank you Doubting Thomas for printing it for those of us who don't have that issue.

This information just about makes me sick!

Does it not make you wonder whether any of the little sheep out there are scratching their heads and deep down wondering what is going on? Or are they just blindly going along with this. I know that for years I had reservations about what was coming down from the "ivory tower." I certainly do appreciate that you have brought this to our attention because for the last year or so I have had trouble making myself read even the study articles because there is so much that was simply unscriptural. This all so totally wrong, that it makes me feel like the demons are really taking over full time. Before it was just a strange idea here and there but it now seems like each week it is an all out assault for our minds. From here on out it will be very necessary to be very careful what we accept from the WTS. In truth, I was wondering if it's a good idea even to have the magazines in the house.

I suppose that it was necessary for this to happen to demonstrate to us at least that there is good reason to destroy the WTS.

As for those who say they are annointed, why is there no insight. Yes, Watchman has given us some wonderful jewels of enlightenment, but he can't be the only one out there, can he? I don't know but it just seems that there should be a few others standing up and refusing to go along with this nonsense. Or, am I wrong?

Molly

[DoubtingThomas]

Yes Molly, there are others "out there" too. Robert himself wrote that he has spoken with other "late bloomers" of the annointed class. These brothers are self-sacrificing in dispensing spiritual truths from God's Word mostly via the internet. I am not talking about apostates either. But true members of our organization that see the real apostasy from within the organization in recent years. I try to get insight from these different ones, not just Brother King. They are not seeking a following for themselves, but as the prophets of old, they are trying to deliver an unpopular message to God's people to repent. Of course, most will likely not listen. But God judges not only the organization for it's sins, but He judges us as individuals also.

[Steadfast]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

According to the scriptures, the calling ends when the 144,000 are sealed at Revelation 7:4. This happens at the sixth seal.

What is the timing of the sixth seal? The first six seals open before the angels begin to blow their trumpets:

Revelation 8:1 – And when he (Jesus) opened the seventh seal, a silence in heaven occurred for about a half hour.

Verse 2 – And I saw the seven angels that stand before God, and seven trumpets were given them.

Verse 6 – And the seven angels with the seven trumpets prepared to blow them.

None of this has taken place yet.

Love, :Love:

Steadfast

[DoubtingThomas]

Yes that is true Steadfast. It is also possible that some (even Brother King) may not remain true to their calling and may fall away before the 7th trumpet is sounded. But I believe that most will remain true to their heavenly calling if they are truly anointed. But that still does not explainwhy so many partake of the emblems today? Have that many anointed needed to be replaced?

[Shibboleth]

I guess I am not the only one in the organization that questions the interpertation of the sealing and when it ends.


I know a person who is in his early 50's and he is of the annointed. So it is indeed true that the sealing hasn't ended yet. Which is why I brought up the topic a few weeks ago.

[Molly]

The more I think about this the more annoyed I am getting.

Scripturally the GB is a bogus arrangement. There is no such thing and any authority they imagine they have has been totally contrived by twisting the scriptures.

Their claim to authority is that they have been appointed over all Christ's belongings but, of course they haven't because Christ has not begun to rule as King. But more than that, before they can be appointed over Christ's belongings they have to prove faithful until death. If they are still alive, they haven't proved themselves yet. And even then they have to wait until the first resurrection to begin ruling as kings and priests with Christ. That's when they are appointed over all Christs belongings, not here on earth.

So, even if they are saying that some of the great crowd can be part of the GB, I can't see how the concept of a GB is scriptural, at least not in way that it presently exists. I could see an arrangement where the annointed convened to exchange insights, but not the dictatorial arrangement that we see today.

Anybody have any thoughts?

Molly

[Shibboleth]

Yes that is true Steadfast. It is also possible that some (even Brother King) may not remain true to their calling and may fall away before the 7th trumpet is sounded. But I believe that most will remain true to their heavenly calling if they are truly anointed. But that still does not explainwhy so many partake of the emblems today? Have that many anointed needed to be replaced?[/b]

How do we know they were replaced? Maybe the number was never truely filled when the WBTS said it was. It is for Jehovah and Jesus to know. So maybe the sealing just continues onward. That is why the world has continued on. It just hasn't been completed yet. I am sure there were some that lost their privilege and I am also sure that some may have thought they were annointed but truely were not. I think we are closing in on the last portion of the sealing. I think it is almost complete.

Also to be completly sealed they need to finish their earthly course. So what kind of mark does Jehovah put on them before they get the permanent mark? Also, we do know that Jehovah is going to start the GT after they have been sealed. But it does not necessarily mean that they have died first to get the full seal. Since it says in the scriptures that the locust army was not to harm those with the seal. So there will be a select few that would have the permanent seal of Jehovah when this attack starts. Then the GT will be cut short and the annointed with the seal on earth are brought to heaven to join Jesus in the war of Armegeddon.

Does this sound clear cut to people here? I think it does to me. I mean the scriptures seem pretty clear on what needs to happen. I think some interpertations are muddied and there are some that are bent on what was said in the past. But aren't prophecies supposed to get clearer when they are close to fullfillment? That's what I thought anyways. Which is why I have so many problems with the Climax book. It is outdated. So much has happened and all we got was a few 'corrections' to some dates and numbers.

[DoubtingThomas]

I agree totally Molly. And you are also correct Shibboleth. I think many of us have wondered about this which is probably why the GB sought fit to publish this Question from Reader article. Perhaps Brother King (or any other annointed here) can tell us how they are certain they are annointed. Is there any doubt? I was told that it is like knowing if you are male or female. For most of us we just know what we are.

[Shibboleth]

The more I think about this the more annoyed I am getting.

Scripturally the GB is a bogus arrangement. There is no such thing and any authority they imagine they have has been totally contrived by twisting the scriptures.

Their claim to authority is that they have been appointed over all Christ's belongings but, of course they haven't because Christ has not begun to rule as King. But more than that, before they can be appointed over Christ's belongings they have to prove faithful until death. If they are still alive, they haven't proved themselves yet. And even then they have to wait until the first resurrection to begin ruling as kings and priests with Christ. That's when they are appointed over all Christs belongings, not here on earth.

So, even if they are saying that some of the great crowd can be part of the GB, I can't see how the concept of a GB is scriptural, at least not in way that it presently exists. I could see an arrangement where the annointed convened to exchange insights, but not the dictatorial arrangement that we see today.

Anybody have any thoughts?

Molly[/b]

Molly I think the whole 'organizational' part of the WBTS is used by Jehovah to get the preaching work done. I think that it is only being used to fullfill the prophecy of preaching to the whole world. I don't think the preaching work as we see it today could not have been organized well enough without someone overseeing it on earth. Case in point, all of us here now would not be here if there had been no global preaching work. I think that is the main focus of the organization as a whole. It is dedicated to spread truths to peole.

Sure there are other religions that preach, but none preach as extensively as JWs.

[DoubtingThomas]

The idea of a Governing Body as it existied in the first century is scriptural Molly. But that body was made up entirely of anointed brothers. Also our modern day GB has become corrupted as the scriptures foretold would happen. Don't be discouraged. Jehovah God foresaw this would happen.

[Berean]

Their claim to authority is that they have been appointed over all Christ's belongings but, of course they haven't because Christ has not begun to rule as King.[/b]
And even then, that text is of course gravely misapplied. Of course Matthew 24:45 could refer to a class of people, but if you actually look at the context, it could just as easily refer to individuals. Faithful slaves will be appointed over many things (Matthew 25:19-23), while evil slaves will not be. Matthew 25 makes a lot of sense if you read it like that, and I can't help but think that's what Jesus had in mind when he said what he did in Matthew 24:45. Interesting also is that Luke 12:42 speaks of a faithful steward, a term that returns in 1 Corinthians 4:1, 2, and is there applied by Paul to individual Christians. Food for thought, I'd think.


The idea of a Governing Body as it existied in the first century is scriptural Molly. But that body was made up entirely of anointed brothers. Also our modern day GB has become corrupted as the scriptures foretold would happen. Don't be discouraged. Jehovah God foresaw this would happen.[/b]
True, there was a body of elders in Jerusalem, but the interesting thing about that is that it was actually made up of men who were not only of the anointed, but apostles as well (Acts 1:15-26). A requirement to be a part of that 'governing body' (a term which you will not find in the Bible, by the way) was, apparently, that one was a witness to Christ's resurrection. I'm not sure if this applies to the anointed who haven't been around when Jesus was resurrected - I know that Paul is considered to be an apostle, because he witnessed the Lord Jesus, but are present-day anointed considered to be witnesses to Christ's resurrection? If not, I'm not sure how they want to legitimate the governing body, since they're basically exalting themselves to the status of apostle simply by being a member of that body.

[Molly]

Dear Shibboleth and Doubting Thomas-

Thank you for your responses.

I will certainly conceed that there was a body of older mem in Jerusalem that did entertain the weightier questions in the first century, but that is a far cry from the micro-management that exists within the WTS. There is a huge difference between being a steward feeding the household its food at the proper time and having all authority over Christ's belongings. It is that complete "authority" that I reject, mostly because the sheep feel they have no choice but to follow even though might they see that there are things that don't fit. I guess that I'm not all that sheeplike, probably more stubborn, but I'm not inclined to follow this stranger (John 10:5).

As for the organization, I'll be more than happy to conceed the need for some organization to get the preaching work done. In the first century much was done under direct spiritual orders, such as Peter being sent to Cornelius. We do not have that benefit at this particular time, so some organization is necessary.

Molly

[Elihu]

i think what we need to keep in focus is that there will exist in Gods household an evil and good slave right up until he comes to cleanse his household.
Watchman repeatedly highlights this judgement in his book using the writings of prophets such as joel and amos, micha and malachi and isaiah.

the position appears to be that there is nothing anyone can do to alter the course of the future for the watchtower as an organisation, it has been adulterous and has mislead the sheep, and those who guide it will eventually be revealed as the man of lawlessness, and betray the flock to the king of fierce countenance.
christ will judge them as the evil slave

However, i am afraid to comment overmuch in case i might be incorrect, but i feel that scripture shows hope and light for the good slave when Christ cleanses his Temple.

on the question of annointing, (and bearing in mind, and i think i am correct in saying this, Watchman believes that there will be a future outpouring of Spirit)
is anyone in this generation truly annointed yet, or are they just potential annointed heirs?

just my mixed up thoughts
Elihu

[Steadfast]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I am not one who thinks that anointed will continue to be chosen during the tribulation. Revelation 7:4 is the final sealing with the first resurrection taking place just before Armageddon.

The other point I want to make is Satan also has his anointed (weeds). These will be removed when the final sealing is accomplished at Revelation 7:4, but their destruction will probably take place at Armageddon.

Since only Jah and Christ know who the true anointed are, these will be the ones that Satan makes war with as stated in Revelation 12:17 and Revelation 11:7:

Revelation 12:17 – And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus.

Revelation 11:7 – And when they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will make war with them and conquer them and kill them.

Love, :Love:

Steadfast

[Jeshurun]

<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana">I find it very interesting how Jesus asked "Who really is the faithful steward?"

There are more than two slaves here. Obviously, the slave that is getting drunk, and beating the menservants and the maidservants, are the one and only [b]Governing Body of the Watchtower. They are the ones that understood the will of the master. Maybe the ones that "did not understand" are those that knew that something was seriously wrong and were complacent in not doing enough to stand up for the truth, and were just doing their best to serve Jehovah and endure. These are the ones that are "beaten with a few strokes". Perhaps the faithful slave will be found outside of the organization. Such as Robert King, and a few others, so far. I can&#39;t see how it can be any other way. There is simply no one in the organization who has the truth, and if they do, they aren&#39;t standing up for it, even if it means being disfellowshipped. Maybe this is why the organization is slated for total destruction. The way it&#39;s structured, there is simply no room for a faithful and discreet slave, because that slave would rock the entire organization to it&#39;s foundation, which obviously is not going to happen before the Master arrives.

It&#39;s come down to this: A person has to go outside the Watchtower, on the internet, to get help in finding the truth from Jehovah&#39;s Word, and to get good spiritual food at the proper time, unless they can figure it out for themselves, and even at that they would have to feed themselves. And to find the good food, they run the risk of falling into apostate traps along the way. Hard to believe it&#39;s come down to this, isn&#39;t it?






</span>

[Eli&#39;s Foe]

<span style="font-family:Verdana">I find it very interesting how Jesus asked "Who really is the faithful steward?"


It&#39;s come down to this: A person has to go outside the Watchtower, on the internet, to get help in finding the truth from Jehovah&#39;s Word, and to get good spiritual food at the proper time, unless they can figure it out for themselves, and even at that they would have to feed themselves. And to find the good food, they run the risk of falling into apostate traps along the way. Hard to believe it&#39;s come down to this, isn&#39;t it?






</span>[/b]

Jeshurun,

your comments show real insight and the question you pose is really relevant, I think. At first sight it does seem hard to believe it has come down to this, but think about it. The internet is a relatively new channel of communication, but a very powerful one. It is not so surprising that Jehovah would have foreseen its relevance and how it could be employed "at the proper time" to dispense truth. Didn&#39;t Jesus himself say, when speaking of the Kingdom of God and the declaration of truth by the disciples, "if these remained silent the stones would cry out".
It requires discernment to work out who on the internet is speaking truth and who is not, but hasn&#39;t that always been the case for seekers of truth? Ezekiel when instructed to mark those in Jerusalem for survival was to identify those sighing and groaning over the detestable things done in the midst of it.
Surely, those of us who have arrived at this place, have done so chiefly because of our dissatisfaction with the WTS in one form or another?
Remember, we only have the word of any brother (or sister) at this point that he or she is annointed, so the whole issue of the right of the present GB to lead must be subjective, nevertheless in line with scripture, we believe they are annointed but unfaithful. Their fruitage proves this at least.
Does any one remember the watchtower discussion of the Nethinim a few years ago? Even then I remember thinking at the time, that the GB was preparing for members of the GB to be of the GC - maybe they already are serving on that body.

EF

[Molly]

Hi All-

When Christ is enthroned, kicks Satan down to the earth and removes the evil slave, it is followed by persecution of the remaining ones of the woman&#39;s seed. Luke 21: 12 tells us: "But before all these things people will lay their hands upon you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, you being haled before kings and governors for the sake of my name." Then it tells how this will allow them to witness to the opposers and that they will be delivered up by family and objects of hatred because of Christ&#39;s name.

Verse 18 says, And yet not a hair of your heads will by any means perish. 19-By endurance on your part you will acquire your souls." This is their initial witness, so they must have been given Jehovah&#39;s spirit to prophesy even at this early point. Of course, all those who are in the new covenant with Jehovah will have received full knowledge because "they will all of them know [Jehovah], from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them," which means that when they do get insight it won&#39;t be just a few, it will be all the annointed that will have insight and there won&#39;t be any need for the annointed to teach any other annointed, nor any reason for any of the annointed to look to any other annointed for clarification. They will all understand completely and they will all be charged with the duty to preach and prophesy.

The interesting thing is that Joel 2:28, 29 says "And after that it must occur that I shall pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will certainly prophesy . As for your old men, dreams they will dream. As for you young men, visins they will see. 29-And even on the menservants and on the maidservants in those days I shall pour out my spirit." If I recall correctly, Robert King explained this as the sons and daughters being the annointed and the maidservants and menservants being some other group (maybe the other sheep?)

Just a little a few thoughts to confuse things further.

Molly

[Jeshurun]

The interesting thing is that Joel 2:28, 29 says "And after that it must occur that I shall pour out my spirit on every sort of flesh, and your sons and your daughters will certainly prophesy . As for your old men, dreams they will dream. As for you young men, visins they will see. 29-And even on the menservants and on the maidservants in those days I shall pour out my spirit." If I recall correctly, Robert King explained this as the sons and daughters being the annointed and the maidservants and menservants being some other group (maybe the other sheep?)[/b]

Hi Molly

I would sure hope that we non-anointed fit in somewhere, and I&#39;m sure that many of us are feeling Jehovah&#39;s Holy Spirit already. The coming preaching work would be quite a task for those 7,000 of the anointed remnant without some help, I would think.

All we can do is pray for Jehovah to let us be used by him, and what an honor that would be. I really feel that Jehovah will work some amazing deeds during the time of the end. The way that all of us here are so driven to serve him, I believe that the prophecy in Joel assures us that if we remain faithful to him, we will experience this outpouring of Holy Spirit, and it also seems that it will take away some of the lingering doubt and fear of the upcoming trials that some of us may have trouble conquering. The thing to remember is that our God is far superior to their gods, and that if we just don&#39;t lose faith, we&#39;re guaranteed to be on the winning side.

And this scripture that you pointed out is huge:

"Verse 18 says, And yet not a hair of your heads will by any means perish. 19-By endurance on your part you will acquire your souls."

[Dorcas]

Dear Friends,
I felt so sad as I followed the posts to think that the GB has our minds so messed up -- especially about a gift that is so precious (the anointing). Personally, I believe that Jehovah has never left the earth without a witness. They may not have understood ALL of the Truth, but then, neither do we! The WT has had articles on individuals and groups who searched for Bible truths. My early ancestors were Mennonites. They were persecuted from one country to another, hung in chains, and killed. They wouldn&#39;t go to war...Many fled to this country for freedom of worship. This is just an example. There are many others..think of the Puritans, Waldensians, etc.
"Steadfast" has given us a scriptural time for the anointing to end. Until that time, it isn&#39;t up to us to question any who claim to have the special gift. For myself, I have always looked forward to teaching those resurrected to the earth. However, Jah&#39;s will be done.
We all have a portion of God&#39;s spirit on us. We need to keep our vessels clean, and ask each day that Jehovah uses us to do his will.
Much love to all...Dorcas http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/MSN%20Vlinder.gif

[stayawake]

IMHO we are all here because we took sides with Jehovah, If it weren&#39;t for the WT s sins, there would be no need for this site. Don&#39;t think for a minute that Jah isnt pleased with our decision.
Some have even been cut off from familys for taking sides.
Jah certainly is not going to forget ,what we did in His behalf.
Steadfast had a real good thread on about the way Jewish weddings took place during Christ time. I don&#39;t know how to pull it up. Hopefully some one will.
.But I do know the WT has the Ten Virgin Parable all wrong.
The five virgins that kept their lamps lite are us. We are the guests to that marriage feast. We are the Brides companions and friends of the bridegroom.
According to the Jewish tridition, the Marriage took place FIRST and then later on the marriage feast.
So the five virgins certainly were not the bride, but rather they were the guests to the banquet feast
So who were the five virgins that lost their lite,
?? and who are the five virgins that kept their lite?
You got it !! Now wasnt that easy
Love stayawake

[watchman]

Interesting WT article. So, in saying that the anointed do not possess any special insights, what accounts for the Watchtower&#39;s authority? Don&#39;t they claim to have been given special insights into the sacred secrets of God? Are we to assume that only the Governing Body have extraodinary insights and all others outside of Bethel&#39;s presiding anointed do not? That seems to be what they are saying. I know for a fact that that is the way they think, but to see it in print is something else.

I seem to recall a Christian prophet named Agabus, who was apparently not connected with the apostles and inner-circle of older men that oversaw the day-to-day activities of the first century congregations. Yet, Agabus accurately foretold the coming of a devastating famine that affected Christians in the region and he also foretold that Paul would be arrested in Jerusalem. The question is, though, Why didn&#39;t Jehovah just reveal that information to the apostles directly? Why use some outsider?

The Governing Body and its appointed non-anointed writers, who apparently write most of the articles now, could learn alot from more carefully reading the Bible.

Watchman

By the way, I updated the e-watchman blog today. It had been awhile since I posted anything.
http://www.e-watchman.co.uk

[Shibboleth]

Growing up I knew a few annointed ones personally. One I distinctly remember was a little italian brother (I was just a child when he was alive). My aunt confided in me not to long ago about this fine brother and things he told her. She had asked him how he knew that he was annointed and he told her it was a feeling. It was part him like a sense. Likened to us being able to hear and touch and see it was an added sense he had. She asked him if he saw visions and things of the sort. He didn&#39;t answer her outright, but he did say he believed there was a vast darkness aproaching and to keep looking towards Jehovah. He told her that sometimes he would catch glimpses of things that would happen. But just to keep having faith in Jehovah.

When I was in my teens there was an old annointed sister in my hall. Her husband had been an ambassador for the US. She was one of the kindest and humblest people I have ever met. I was privleged to be privy to a conversation someone ahd started with her about how she knew she was annointed. She said it was a feeling. Much like a sense. Exactly what the annointed brother told my aunt 30 years ago.

I just thought I would share those two experiences I had and my reletives had with some who were annointed.

[Jeshurun]

There were 3 anointed members in my congregation when I was a child. Two of them were a married couple. The third was a very elder brother whom everyone was endeared to. He confided in my best friend&#39;s mother the same thing as you said, that it was like another sense. Of course none of us, in our discussions about them, want to go and refer to it as a sixth sense, but that seems to be what it is! :o

I remember my mother hearing about it on the phone, and then she went calling more sisters...blah blah blah ;)

[Dorcas]

Friends,
I realize this is an old thread, but the question is still a good one. I spoke with a Circuit Overseer about this, and he said that most of the new members are coming from Russia, Africa, etc. Many of them expected to go to heaven in their old religion, and they may not be taught of the 2 classes. Therefore, they feel they are still going to heaven.That&#39;s my 2 centshttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_15_7v.gifLove, Dorcas http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/MSN%20Vlinder.gif

[eyes&ears]

HMMMMM, Thanks Dorcas,

Now that is frightening. Who is studying with these new members? Are they not making sure these folks understand these issues before hand or are they in a rush to just get people batptized. Good grief!!! Sounds not right to me Dorcas. Just some
E & E rhetorical questions of concern that is all. Not saying anything against you or the CO.

Just my E & E thoughts.

Love to you

[Jeshurun]

Friends,
I realize this is an old thread, but the question is still a good one. I spoke with a Circuit Overseer about this, and he said that most of the new members are coming from Russia, Africa, etc. Many of them expected to go to heaven in their old religion, and they may not be taught of the 2 classes. Therefore, they feel they are still going to heaven.That&#39;s my 2 centshttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_15_7v.gifLove, Dorcas http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/MSN%20Vlinder.gif[/b]

It will be interesting if, at next year&#39;s Memorial, the number of partakers exceeds 144,000.

What will they do then, hmmmmmmmm????????

:icon_rolleyes:

[Elihu]

if the two classes are not taught to these new members, how can anything be taught to them.
the paradise earth,the resurrection of the dead, the millenium reign etc.
indeed the sacred secret of God, the direct meaning of the ransom sacrifice, the Kingdom of priests to rule over the earth, the gathering of the great crowd

sounds a bit like the catholic Church method of disciple making to me - a bucket of water over your head and thats all you need to know!

but if this is true then it is doomed to failure because it is not based on the truth and it is a very good point you make Jeshurun, that will be worth seeing when there is not enough bread and wine to accomodate the heavenly hopers at the memorial Next year!

surely this report is not accurate? is it?

elihu

[Berean]

surely this report is not accurate? is it?[/b]
I don&#39;t know all that much about the situation in Russian and African countries, but I do know that it&#39;s a lot more complicated there than it is in our Western countries, where our religion is pretty straightforward. For instance, just google the term &#39;Kitawala&#39; to get an idea of the impact the Society has had in Africa.

[Dorcas]

Dear Friends,
Fortunately Jehovah will be doing the final choosing, so it doesn&#39;t matter how many make the claim to anointing. Also, if the tree was planted by Jehovah, it will bear good fruit. It should be up to each body of elders to speak with the "newly anointed", but even then, they can&#39;t tell someone they are not anointed. It isn&#39;t their call.
Hope this info helps.
Love, Dorcas :MSN Vlinder:

[Nambo]

Or maybe Jehovah doesnt intend the 144,000 to be predominantly white westerners?

[juffowup]

This comment by the CO seems to be an ad hoc rationalization, the same patronizing attitude that I have seen move many brothers to "not count" partakers if they made the judgment that they partook "unworthily". Maybe he hasn&#39;t seen the latest WT article and hasn&#39;t gotten on message yet. I echo some of the others above in doubt that there is no way a bunch of new ones partaking out of ignorance is the real issue here.

[littleone]

Such a law as "no more anointed since 1935" coming down from the housetop sort of reminds me of when Jesus and Moses were born. At that time, there was also a law put in place to kill everyone who was under a certain age... Jehovah preserved them though. It also brings to mind how Esther had to dress herself royally and stand in the "inner courtyard" against law.

Jesus&#39; words also come to mind where he told the pharisees that they "shut up the kingdom of heavens".

What is even more fascinating is that out of the members currently alive on the governing body, very few of them were anointed before 1935. Lets take a look at the 9 current governing body members and when they were born:
John E. Barr (Born 1913 appointed GB 1977)
Samuel Herd (Born 1935 appointed GB 1999)
Geoffrey Jackson (Born 1940+ ? appointed GB 2005)
Theodore Jaracz (Born 1925 appointed GB 1974)
Stephen Lett (Born 1949 appointed GB 1999)
Gerrit Lösch (Born 1941 appointed GB 1994)
Anthony Morris (Born 1940+ ? appointed GB 2005)
Guy Pierce (Born 1934 appointed GB 1999)
David Splane (Born 1944 appointed GB 1999)
Out of the 9 members of the governing body, only 1 (John E Barr) could have been anointed before 1935. Perhaps even Thodore Jaracz, if he accepted the truth before the age of 10. So I guess that the "law" of "no more anointed" doesn&#39;t apply to these ones. Can&#39;t have their cake and eat it too. :icon_rolleyes:

[stayawake]

The way I see it ,sad to say, attention had to be directed to the younger generation
Greed crept in.
The door for the annointed had to close and be opened up to a younger generation, to help build a empire.

Kingdom Halls
Branch Offices
Assembly Halls
Farms made into paridise
Remodeling old theaters and high rise buildings,
ALL FREE LABOR. and all the GB had to do to build this EMPIRE was hold out the hope of never dying, but living on earth forever.

This was VERY appealing to the younger single and family men no one WANTS to die.
after all
we were created to live forever. So by the sweat of their brow they made that there goal.

So no more annointed were accepted, it would kill their plan.

I only speak for myself

[Theopompus]

If all this is correct then my question is -- instead of 11 members on GB, why arn&#39;t there 8&#39;758 members of the GB? I believe the question is reasonable.

love ya all Theopompus

[stayawake]

My thoughts on this guestion, gathered along with other posts.

Eleven is not a given number. Through the years the number on the govering body varied. They were brought into the GB by invitation only.
Why aren&#39;t the rest who are counted as the remaining ones here on earth by the WT included in the governing body ?

Its because the now exsisting GB has usurped Christ being the Head of the body and have made themself the Head of Gods Household

""littleone"" has a excellent post on this unbibical arrangement. I think its under "the NAME"

Let us reason for a moment.
We know that the Bride of Christ is to rule as Kings and Priests in Gods Heavenly Kingdom.

We also are aware that in the first century, some had to be admonished by Paul ,because they were already acting as Kings
In the sense some wer&#39;e lording it over their brothers.

as :LITTLEONE " explaind we have the same thing going on in Gods Household today
Some have usurped Christ Headship and have appointed themself Govenors, hence we have the Governing Body.

Gods household was split when Russell died and Rutherford came in and started to enslave the brother to a very different movement then what had been intended by Russell.
We have many sincere brothers in those bible study groups,who belong to the Household of God that are not counted by the WT. The WT was always interested in numbers.
But who cares Jah knows who belong to him.

The thing is is that the BS never went further then Russells writting. Reminds me of the Samaritans, never going futher then the writtings of Moses.

Now we have the 11 oclock workers who are still being accepted by Jehovah, even though the WT tried to close the door in 1935.

Their work to me is harder then those who worked all day.
They may be late bloomers as I think Watchman calls them, but they have more responsibility then those who have already fallen asleep.

How so.?
Its because their death will be a sacrificial death that will invoke The Day of Jahs Anger.

In the meantime they are exposing the false brothers or the man of lawlessness in our mist. This takes courage, but their work is cut out for them, as the book of Revelations tells us that the cowards will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, where there is no resurrection.
which would also be applicable to those who would take hold of the skirt of a jew.

So that is the reason all are not in the self made Govering Body. Christ is the Head, not a GB.
Those who reconize and accept Jesus word that , ""NO ONE comes to the Father,except THROUGH Jesus.""( NOT A GB) , are the cream or the Wheat in Gods household. ( the annointed ).

This is MHO
love stayawake