144,000

[Steadfast]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I thought this might be an appropriate time to repost the summary of how the 144,000 are identified in the Bible.

Please feel free to post any scriptures you have in mind as I'm sure I missed some.

Revelation 20:6 – Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.

Notice the words 'first resurrection' in the above scripture. This is the resurrection being described here:

1 Corinthians 15:52 – in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Also notice the words 'over these the second death has no authority' and 'incorruptible.' These phrases are describing immortality, something that is only given to the 144,000.

How do we know? The following scripture ties the 144,000 with being kings and priests, which ties these verses back to Revelation 20:6 which says they are kings priests, but also have immortality.

Revelation 5:9-10 – And they sing a new song, saying: 'You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom of priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.'

The number of 144,000 is also confirmed as the kings and priests in the following verses because it identifies them as firstfruits, which is exactly what the first resurrection is.

Revelation 14:1-4 – And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads…..

And they are singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth.

These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women, in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.

Clearly, the 144,000 are the kings and priests, the firstfruits, who receive immortality in the first resurrection.

Love,

Steadfast

[dgibson]

I guess, in light of this post, it seems that this place is only for the ones who profess to be of the anointed class? Has the WTBTS sent over their own wrecking crew, to this place? It sure is getting to seem like it.

[Steadfast]

Dear Brother Gibson,

I didn't mean to offend you with the post concerning the 144,000. My only intention was to post my thoughts on this doctrine and ask for any scriptures I might have overlooked.

Love, :)

Steadfast

[dgibson]

Dear, Bro. Steadfast

Its ok.

I just think the ones remaining, are caught between trying to remain faithful, and yet help people with little faith, and yet they don't want to confront issues repeatedly over things they have found out to be scriptually bogus teachings.

So, they confront, retreat, confront, retreat, and all the while people of little hope, and IQ's in spiritual things get brusied again, and again.

I think the fortress for the remaining ones, has to be realized as being within ones own person now, not protected within a set of rules or regulations of one's associations on a board, in everyday contacts, or within the wallls of an organization.

How, can the professional guides of the truth help the ones so far removed, if they keep removing themselves from them, because they don't like the sour language, or repeating of facts once crossed, and considered so simple now to them.

I read once, someone had pointed out, that at bethel the FDS had their own special hallways they used, and no one else was allowed to use them. Now, why do they seem to always have a feeling of wanting to be kepted separate at times?

I think its because they get tired. They get tired of covering the same spiritual ground, or worn down from trying to pull us up to their spiritual heights, when we can't do it. Or maybe they are just trying to protect themselves from the arrows of satan, delivered at a constant rate now, by just about everything around them.

I guess I'm rambling on, but I wish this protectionism, would not hurt so bad to all the little ones, and reading your post, was just another reminder to me, what this board just went through.

The apostle Paul may have wanted the mouths of certain ones shut, but I doubt if he returned to his former past, and actively pursued ones to do that very thing. Nor did he encourage anyone to use the sword to remove tongues.

I guess I'm a little unsettled about where my refuge is, I guess maybe its within myself now, along with my prayers to Jehovah.

It just seems that this place is becoming to sterile of an enviroment for real issues of everyday hardships to be discussed, and you know how the WTBTS is not discussing them in many of their articles.

Love
Dgibson

[Criterion]

Little known fact...

The heart of the human body beats 144,000 times in a complete day.*That*this*number*is*also applied to the*anointed is*something*to*make*one*stop*and*wonder.


and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been. --Revelation 6:11b

For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. --Romans 8:19

However, let this one fact not be escaping YOUR notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. -- 2 Peter 3:8

Consequently we have the prophetic word [made] more sure; and YOU are doing well in paying attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until day dawns and a daystar rises, in YOUR hearts. --2 Peter 1:19

<div align="right">Criterion</div>

[Steadfast]

Dear Brother Criterion,

You said: Little known fact...

The heart of the human body beats 144,000 times in a complete day. That this number is also applied to the anointed is something to make one stop and wonder.

My reply: I find that awesome! :)

Love,

Steadfast

[juffowup]

You said: Little known fact...

The heart of the human body beats 144,000 times in a complete day. That this number is also applied to the anointed is something to make one stop and wonder.[/b]


Only if you have a resting heart beat of 100bpm. In which case, get out and exercise a bit, that&#39;ll kill you eventually. :P

[Jeshurun]

Happy Sunday, everyone

After reading a discussion on another DB, I was motivated to post about the topic of being "born again". I wanted to share it with you here, and also ask if any of you feel the way I do.

RE: Born again

I believe that 144,000 is a literal number chosen from mankind to be given immortality, life within themselves, to rule over us here on earth. Since my hope is earthly, I welcome the idea of being judged by "people" rather than spirits who never knew what it was like to be a finite soul of flesh and blood. What angel, other than maybe some ex-angels, can say that they know the experience of loneliness, rejection, self-doubt, and first-hand experience of weaknesses of the flesh?

That being said, it is now necessary to make a personal decision as to exactly what Jesus meant when he said "see the Kingdom". I don&#39;t feel it is necessary to "see it" in order to know it exists and to be in subjection to it, in order to enjoy life on earth with a little bit of law and order and real love for one another, as a "norm" for the whole human family. What a radical idea! Nobody else around except people who ALL know Jehovah and gladly accept living under his very easy-to-follow rules.

So I don&#39;t feel it is necessary to be "born again" in order to survive the end of this rotten system and into a world without Satan and his influence. What is flesh is flesh and what it spirit is spirit. We have souls, and minds and hearts, and we are in Jehovah&#39;s image, so I don&#39;t see any other tools necessary in order to have the Temple within us.

I would also be uncomfortable with the mainstream idea of being "born again" in that it might be construed in one&#39;s own mind as already having been saved, which imo is dangerous territory, no different from what Mount Bethel teaches.

What is definitely necessary would be to "put on a new personality", one that reflects Jehovah to the best of our ability. Another requirement for receiving the benefits of Jesus&#39; ransom sacrifice would be "circumcision of the heart". Once again, a spirit body is not required to be able to do this.

Of course I also feel that being chosen by Jehovah to be part of his ruling Kingdom, immortal, indestructible, having life within themselves, is the greatest gift and show of trust that I can possibly imagine. And still, it is not a desire that I have ever been even remotely desirous of. Since it is obvious that those who are anointed will never see anything regarding the earth in the same way, they have a completely different mindset, one that I cannot imagine myself. I can&#39;t help but to be fully convinced, then, that being "born again" is not required of me to have complete trust and faith in God&#39;s Kingdom with Rightful King installed, and an army of once-human, love and faith-tested brothers and sisters of Christ who stayed with him unto martyrdom.

Even if my quest for navigating the narrow road ends up in having to "give it up" for Christ&#39;s sake, I&#39;ll be more than grateful for the new set of skin and bones, versus a spirit body, a one-way ticket to the netherworlds, and having to spend a thousand years deciding every case "life" or "no life". I&#39;ll just be content to be a microscopic pea-brain in the grand scheme of things, never again having to worry about the clock, and having eternity to grow and learn and to be a true asset to the human family.

Agape to all
Lou

[stayawake]

Hi Jesh IMHO
There are so many twists and turns in your post, that I am only going to tackle one
First of all the confusion comes in when one does not understand that the Greek NT was written just for the 144,000.
Of course all princibles would apply to all of Christ followers
It is the 144,000 that are the Temple of God ,no one else.

The literal Temple was distroyed in 70AD,although at Christ death in 33AD the Curtain in the Most Holy in the Temple was turn in half which pictured Christ flesh.
No more did Jahs spirit dwell in that Temple as the Mosaic Law was hung on the torture stake with Christ. Meaning Jesus full filled the law down to "a perfect life for a perfect life ",so that Old covenent was no longer in effect.
Christ three and half years in the ministry was gathering those that would make up the new covenent, and they would be those who would rule with him. Jesus preached only to the Jews.
Being that he died in the middle of the week 33AD the preaching to the Jews was extended to the Jews to the end of the week ,which would be 36 AD. that was when the invatation to rule WITH Christ was extended to the Gentiles starting with Cornelis.
The literal Temple as you read in the 23rd chap of Matt was made of precious stones. The Jews would boast of that Temples beauty.
After Jesus death ,
Paul was inspired to tell the then followers of Christ,( the heavenly ) that THEY were the Temple of God made up of living stones in which Gods spirit dwell.
So this is where His Spirit is,
among those who have the heavenly calling from HIM>Jehovah.
Many may make this claim, but it won&#39;t be until that number is sealed the there will be the REVEALING of the true sons of God.

Keep in mind that Satan has planted his weeds (men of distruction) among the wheat (true sons)and until the harvest when the angels (reapers) devide the two ,they will continue to be togerther.

@Thess 2:1-12 (one of my favorites ) brings out that the man of lawlessness sat himself down in the temple of God )
Being that the Temple of God is made up of Living Stones, This man would have to profess to be among these living stones (annointed ) or he would have never been able to get in to the Temple of God.
The same with Judas,he was among the others,yet turned on Jesus. Of course one of them had to in order to fullfill scripture, but it wasnt until the very end that Jesus reconized which one it was.
this is the way I see it all. I only speak for myself
love stayawake

[Elihu]

Dear, Bro. Steadfast

Its ok.

I just think the ones remaining, are caught between trying to remain faithful, and yet help people with little faith, and yet they don&#39;t want to confront issues repeatedly over things they have found out to be scriptually bogus teachings.

So, they confront, retreat, confront, retreat, and all the while people of little hope, and IQ&#39;s in spiritual things get brusied again, and again.

I think the fortress for the remaining ones, has to be realized as being within ones own person now, not protected within a set of rules or regulations of one&#39;s associations on a board, in everyday contacts, or within the wallls of an organization.

How, can the professional guides of the truth help the ones so far removed, if they keep removing themselves from them, because they don&#39;t like the sour language, or repeating of facts once crossed, and considered so simple now to them.

I read once, someone had pointed out, that at bethel the FDS had their own special hallways they used, and no one else was allowed to use them. Now, why do they seem to always have a feeling of wanting to be kepted separate at times?

I think its because they get tired. They get tired of covering the same spiritual ground, or worn down from trying to pull us up to their spiritual heights, when we can&#39;t do it. Or maybe they are just trying to protect themselves from the arrows of satan, delivered at a constant rate now, by just about everything around them.

I guess I&#39;m rambling on, but I wish this protectionism, would not hurt so bad to all the little ones, and reading your post, was just another reminder to me, what this board just went through.

The apostle Paul may have wanted the mouths of certain ones shut, but I doubt if he returned to his former past, and actively pursued ones to do that very thing. Nor did he encourage anyone to use the sword to remove tongues.

I guess I&#39;m a little unsettled about where my refuge is, I guess maybe its within myself now, along with my prayers to Jehovah.

It just seems that this place is becoming to sterile of an enviroment for real issues of everyday hardships to be discussed, and you know how the WTBTS is not discussing them in many of their articles.

Love
Dgibson[/b]

hi dgibson
sorry to see that you feel unsettled or anxious, i think i understand how you feel.
sometimes this site does seem elitist to me especially since i have never been a baptised witness.
a while ago on this db i was involved in a discussion about the 144k and it did get a bit heated and i said somethings that may well have upset some, or possibly all.
I regret saying those things and would wholeheartedly apologise to anyone i upset if i could.
the 144k teaching can seem elitist, but it is a true doctrine and for me the whole picture disintegrates without it.
however, for those who are not of that group and have been loaded with the heavy burden of trying to live up to the standards by the WT it must be difficult for them to see how merciful Christ is, how compassionate and forgiving,
i think Flowerchild had realised this and i think she is right, give my apologies to her if you talk to her.

elihu

[stayawake]

Good grief, never in a million years did I ever feel that the Truth would become offensive.
Every thing in my Post is the TRUTH.
I don&#39;t use scriptures so that if one doesn&#39;t believe it they can do their own research and
not allow anyone to think for them, this is what has happened, we became lazy in searching out what the scriptures say.
Please accept my opology ,not for the Truth in my post but for your not being favorable to what was presented.
Love sis stayawake
PS My hope is NOT heavenly
Ok another apology is in order I thought the post above was directed to me. I think its time for this old gal to take a nap.

[Dorcas]

Hi, Everyone and a special welcome back to SISTER Steadfast,
Since I am, so far, a http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_158.gif, I am no authority on the "Bride class". What I&#39;ve learned is that the 144,000 will not get their final sealing until the tribulation, and the faithful slave will go to heaven with their bridegroom Jesus. They will judge those left on earth after the wedding, at Armageddon. The goats will go off to destruction and the sheep will be given life in the paradise earth. They will be given a suitable body, but have to work toward perfection along with the resurrected. Now, someone may come along and tell me I&#39;m all wrong. So be it...
Let&#39;s just try to not make this thing more complicated than it is. In due time, Jehovah will reveal what we are and where we will go! Personally I hope Jehovah will find me worthy to teach the resurrected ones here on the earth. I long to see my family again.
You may want tp check with some of the earlier posts of Steadfast and myself under marriage, bride, etc. The posts have the scriptures to help you.
This is a fascinating subject, isn&#39;t it?
Love to all, Dorcas http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/MSN%20Vlinder.gif
P.S. The difference between immortal life (heaven) and eternal life is this:
Those granted immortality will have life within themselves -- won&#39;t need to eat, sleep, rid self of wastes, etc. Those given eternal life on the earth will have to be like Adam and Eve before they sinned; eating, drinking, etc. Maybe that will make things clearer. Remember that Adam had conversation with Jehovah through an angel.

[Gabriel]

Does Jehovah use his ability of foresight to see if certain ones who are "canadates" for imortality will rebel against him. To me the thought of anyone haveing imortality besides Jehovah and Jesus makes me so uneasy. Dont think I need to explain why. However I think that the idea of giving certain ones imortality MAGNIFY Jehovahs GREATNESS and his willingness to trust his creatures. When you think about it, the thought itself is absalutely fear inspiring. Jehovah&#39;s power is so LIMITLESS that he can afford to give certain ones imortality without putting his own Godship at risk. makes my hair stand up!

[Elihu]

sorry stayawake, my post was not directed to you or in any way was meant to contradict what you posted.
i was merely expressing empathy for dgibson.

as i said a while ago i was involved in a discussion which was two pronged
the 144k
and who should partake

i strongly held the view that you have expressed and indeed i spent numerous hours searching and posting scriptures to support what in my view was the truth.
as the discussion developed there were some who were trying to depict the Great crowd as the same group as the 144k and i found this to be scripturally unsupported.

at that time i did feel in the minority and found my posts being countered by numerous opposing posts.

caught up in the middle of this discussion where others such as dgibson, the scriptures and presentation i used may have made such as her feel uncomfortable. and for that i was apologising, not for expressing the truth as you have also done.
i apologise to you if what i said seems to you in some way a personal insult it was not meant to be but i do not apologise for my feeling that my not being a baptised witness is viewed as lacking something.

lets face it the witnesess claim to have the truth and it cannot possibly come from outside of their organisation can it?
am i not allowed to examine the scriptures myself or indeed is anyone?
oh yes they are, but they are only allowed to draw the same conclusions as the WT teaches.

agin apologies
Elihu

[Dorcas]

sorry stayawake, my post was not directed to you or in any way was meant to contradict what you posted.
i was merely expressing empathy for dgibson.

as i said a while ago i was involved in a discussion which was two pronged
the 144k
and who should partake

i strongly held the view that you have expressed and indeed i spent numerous hours searching and posting scriptures to support what in my view was the truth.
as the discussion developed there were some who were trying to depict the Great crowd as the same group as the 144k and i found this to be scripturally unsupported.

at that time i did feel in the minority and found my posts being countered by numerous opposing posts.

caught up in the middle of this discussion where others such as dgibson, the scriptures and presentation i used may have made such as her feel uncomfortable. and for that i was apologising, not for expressing the truth as you have also done.
i apologise to you if what i said seems to you in some way a personal insult it was not meant to be but i do not apologise for my feeling that my not being a baptised witness is viewed as lacking something.

lets face it the witnesess claim to have the truth and it cannot possibly come from outside of their organisation can it?
am i not allowed to examine the scriptures myself or indeed is anyone?
oh yes they are, but they are only allowed to draw the same conclusions as the WT teaches.

agin apologies
Elihu[/b]
Your dedication to Jehovah is made privately in prayer. Jehovah reads the heart. Always speak the truth as you know it to be. The members need to provide scriptures to make their opinion hold water.
Baptism now is tricky because the brother will ask if you recognize the WTS as God&#39;s channel on earth. That is what bears examination at this point in time. http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_34.gif
Love to all you searchers for truth, Dorcas http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/MSN%20Vlinder.gif

[stayawake]

Dear Elihu
Hey no reason to apologise,I am the easiest person to get along with&#39;
Besides you have no reason to apologise
It was all my fault that that everything was misunderstood, as I stepped into a Thread with out reading all the posts.
You know I did that before, .will I ever learn ?
Hope so :)
love stayawake

[Elihu]

thank you for your posts Stayawake and Dorcas.
unfortunatley i think i probably will never get baptised sister Dorcas but thank you for your advice.

Stayawake , no wonder you misunderstood my post, i should not have posted in such manner as i did. talking before thinking. will i ever learn?

and also Steadfast and Jeshurun, you two have said everything that i believe to be the truth, and you have so in such a simple, clear, scriptural manner, which when i tried to do sometime ago on this DB resulted in many being upset.
that is why i was trying to apologise to dgibson. (this post was not the place to do that ) SORRY

My apologies to you Steadfast, for interfearing with such a wonderful scripturally sound post, which you presented for the strengthening of our faith.

Elihu

[Jeshurun]

It&#39;s all my fault for pulling up an old thread and confusing everybody! :stupid:

[Dorcas]

Dear Friends,
What does IMO or IMHO mean? Appreciate a reply...Love, Dorcas

[DoubtingThomas]

Dorcas:

BTW = By the way

IMO = In my opinion

IMHO = In my humble opinion