Upcomming Memorial

[Rogue]

Hi all... I was just wondering: how do u see the command that Jesus gave about the Memorial? There is no such stated restriction concerning the partaking at the Memorial anywhere in the Scriptures. Jesus simply commanded to "keep doing this in remembrance of me," just as he had done with his disciples, and Paul adds, "for as often as you eat this loaf and drink this cup, you keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives." (1 Cor. 11:25, 26)..

JW's teach that only the ones in the New Convenant can partake at the Memorial, the 144.000.... but I believe one of watchman's eeays clearly explain that we are ALL under the New Convenant... so in fact we should all be able to partake...

(Personally I wouldn't partake, because it would bring unnecessary hardship and ostracism, goong against the established procedure as being practiced within the congregations, for it is impossible not to be conspicuous by going contrary to it! But in my heart I don't agree with it one bit! I feel we need to be patient for the time when Jehovah has cleansed his people and we will have a TRUE memorial as it should be!)

[FutureMan]

Hi all... I was just wondering: how do u see the command that Jesus gave about the Memorial? There is no such stated restriction concerning the partaking at the Memorial anywhere in the Scriptures. Jesus simply commanded to "keep doing this in remembrance of me," just as he had done with his disciples, and Paul adds, "for as often as you eat this loaf and drink this cup, you keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives." (1 Cor. 11:25, 26)..

JW's teach that only the ones in the New Convenant can partake at the Memorial, the 144.000.... but I believe one of watchman's eeays clearly explain that we are ALL under the New Convenant... so in fact we should all be able to partake...

(Personally I wouldn't partake, because it would bring unnecessary hardship and ostracism, goong against the established procedure as being practiced within the congregations, for it is impossible not to be conspicuous by going contrary to it! But in my heart I don't agree with it one bit! I feel we need to be patient for the time when Jehovah has cleansed his people and we will have a TRUE memorial as it should be!)[/b]

Hello again, we will be having our celebration of the memorial at home.
As Jesus stated and promised that where two or more meet in his name that he will be there among their midst.
Jesus and his Father do not lie.

From FutureMan.

[Rogue]

Hello again, we will be having our celebration of the memorial at home,
As Jesus stated and promised that where two or more meet in his name that he will be there among there midst.
Jesus and his Father do not lie.

From FutureMan.[/b]

Hi again too :P
I think that is a good thought... and I don't think there is anything wrong with that either! My husband will be wanting to attend the memorial at the KH, so I will join him, and I think on itself there's nothing wrong with attending the memorial at the KH, I just wonder how all of u on the board deal with ur new knowledge about the convenant and thus the partaking at the memorial... thnx for sharing with us the way u will be celebrating the Memorial! :D

[BrotherJay]

Forgive me, but where did Robert say that we are all under the new covenant and are thus invited to partake of the emblems, and what did he say exactly?

Thanks,

Brother Jay

[watchman]

Forgive me, but where did Robert say that we are all under the new covenant and are thus invited to partake of the emblems, and what did he say exactly?

Thanks,

Brother Jay[/b]

The only thing I can recall having written on that topic is the essay entitled New Covenant for a New Creation (http://e-watchman.com/essays/new-covenant-new-creation.html)

watchman

[Utuna]

Dear Roque,

If you feel like partaking at the Memorial, is it because you're craving for going up to heaven in order to meet our God and our Lord Jesus after this latter gets enthroned as King ?!

Do you feel it deep within your guts, being ready to die for it, giving up your life on earth for the glory kept prepared for you in heaven ? Is it not what the apostle Paul wrote in his letters ?

If you feel this way, you can partake at the Memorial. If you don't, just keep having faith in Jesus' death and resurrection, proving it through the way your heart impels you to demontraste your love for him, such as preaching work and/or loving acts towards your neighbour, whoever it might be.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[truthseeker]

<div class='quotemain'>Forgive me, but where did Robert say that we are all under the new covenant and are thus invited to partake of the emblems, and what did he say exactly?

Thanks,

Brother Jay[/b]

The only thing I can recall having written on that topic is the essay entitled New Covenant for a New Creation (http://e-watchman.com/essays/new-covenant-new-creation.html)

watchman

[/b][/quote]

Very well writen watchman.
I have listen to and read many exsplanations of the new covnant.
Your right up there my friend.
Truthseeker

[FutureMan]

Hello all, apart from the WTBTS literature, I have read many topics from many different sources on the new covenant.
And at least from two that I know of who claim to be of the anointed.

Now the question we need to ask is this.

Until Jesus does come is the Bible written for all his followers or disciples or Christians?

If so then what is the argument?

Are we to go outside of scripture and do the opposite to what he stated to his disciples back then, "This do to My remembrance"?

(Luke 22:19-20) [Literal Translation of the Holy Bible]
19 And taking a loaf, giving thanks, He broke, and gave to them, saying, This is My body being given for you. This do to My remembrance.
20 And in like manner the cup, after having supped, saying, This cup is the New Covenant in My blood, which is being poured out for you.

1 Corinthians 11:23-26 [Literal Translation of the Holy Bible]
23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread;
24 and giving thanks, He broke and said, Take, eat; this is My body which is broken on behalf of you; this do in remembrance of Me.
25 In the same way the cup also, after supping, saying, This cup is the New Covenant in My blood; as often as you drink, do this in remembrance of Me. See Luke 22:19, 20
26 For as often as you may eat this bread, and drink this cup, you solemnly proclaim the death of the Lord, until He shall come.

In fact according to scripture there is only one reason why you should not partake of the Lord&#39;s evening meal if you are a baptized Christian, and that is if you feel unworthy to.
The Christians back then were told to scrutinize (examine) themselves first before they partake because if they did not discern Jesus sacrifice being his body impaled on to the torture stake and his blood poured out on our behalf, they would miss it&#39;s meaning and they would be grieving the holy spirit.

1 Corinthians 11:27-34 [Literal Translation of the Holy Bible]
27 So that whoever should eat this bread, or drink the cup of the Lord, unworthily, that one will be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread, and let him drink of the cup;
29 for he eating and drinking unworthily eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.
30 For this reason many among you are weak and feeble, and many sleep.
31 For if we discerned ourselves, we would not be judged.
32 But being judged, we are corrected by the Lord, that we not be condemned with the world.
33 So that, my brothers, coming together to eat, wait for one another.
34 But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, that you may not come together for judgment. And the other things I will set in order whenever I come.

Remember the apostle Paul was talking to baptized Christians here not to anyone outside the Christian congregation.

Let us all prayfully consider whether we are worthy to partake of the bread and the wine as the day and night for this observance draws near. :Yahoo_51:

Just my thought from FutureMan.

[stayawake]

Thank you Bro Jay for being alert.

Jehovah made a Kingdom covenant with his son who in turn on his last night with his followers he included them in his Kingdom covenant,
It is only the ones that rule with Christ that partake of the emblems that sealed this Kingdom covenant.

Christ of course receives his Crown first then as each one died faithfully ,a Crown is set aside for them, this Crown is received when Christ comes down and gathers his Bride all together with him up to Heavenly Jerusalem,
where the
Messianic Kingdom was given birth to by Gods woman. 1Thess 4:13-17
The scriptures also tell us that the Woman (Gods heavenly org ) was barren, ( she never gave birth to a new creation ) so when it came time to give birth the Woman ( Jehovah&#39;s universal Kingdom ) hid it so that Satan wouldn&#39;t devour this kingdom. Rev 12: 13-17

This Kingdom was prepared for the seed of Gods woman JC and the secondary seed the brothers of Christ. Gal 3:16 -Gal3;29
The requirement to receive this Crown , is to be baptized into the death of Christ and run the race to the finish, Jesus had posed the question " are you able to drink of the same cup as I ? ( paraphrased ) 2 Tim 4:8 -Rev 2:10-James 1:12- 1Pet 5:4
)
So if one has the strong desire to be made in the likeness of JC which is a spirit creation, and longs to be with their Father Jehovah God then they must be born again, becoming a New Creation. If this strong feeling and groaning inside is your one desire then by all means partake,

Other wise if your hope is to live on earth one is not cannot be covered by the New Kingdom Covenant until the Bride of Christ seals that Covenant, it will be Christ shed blood that will validate us to be covered during that Kingdom covenant reign.

The Kingdom Covenant and the New covenant are one and the same.
We the other sheep cannot be covered by this Kingdom Covenant until the Kingdom goes into force.

So all the survivors , the other sheep (us ) the GC , those in the resurrection will all be living under that New convenant during Christ 1000 year reighn.
That&#39;s when the new scrolls will be opened up for us to live and be judged under.
After all Jesus is / was the Greater Moses, and Moses was given Laws for a nation.
We are not going to survive Armageddon, and then every one runs where ever they wish,
No, we no doubt will be gathered together and live and work together to prepare the earth for the resurrection.
Why ? Because God is a God of order.
The beautiful thing is we no doubt will get to meet up with one another.

There are enough key words here for further research, as my eyes are weak.
1 Cor 15; is a beautiful chapter dealing with the physical & spiritual .

By all means read watchmans essay on being born again and the New Covenant.. This is a very serious step not to be taken lightly.

Thank you once more Bro Jay.for catching this.
love stayawake

[truthseeker]

Hello all, apart from the WTBTS literature, I have read many topics from many different sources on the new covenant.
And at least from two that I know of who claim to be of the anointed.

Now the question we need to ask is this.

Until Jesus does come is the Bible written for all his followers or disciples or Christians?

If so then what is the argument?

Are we to go outside of scripture and do the opposite to what he stated to his disciples back then, "This do to My remembrance"?

(Luke 22:19-20) [Literal Translation of the Holy Bible]
19 And taking a loaf, giving thanks, He broke, and gave to them, saying, This is My body being given for you. This do to My remembrance.
20 And in like manner the cup, after having supped, saying, This cup is the New Covenant in My blood, which is being poured out for you.

1 Corinthians 11:23-26 [Literal Translation of the Holy Bible]
23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread;
24 and giving thanks, He broke and said, Take, eat; this is My body which is broken on behalf of you; this do in remembrance of Me.
25 In the same way the cup also, after supping, saying, This cup is the New Covenant in My blood; as often as you drink, do this in remembrance of Me. See Luke 22:19, 20
26 For as often as you may eat this bread, and drink this cup, you solemnly proclaim the death of the Lord, until He shall come.

In fact according to scripture there is only one reason why you should not partake of the Lord&#39;s evening meal if you are a baptized Christian, and that is if you feel unworthy to.
The Christians back then were told to scrutinize (examine) themselves first before they partake because if they did not discern Jesus sacrifice being his body impaled on to the torture stake and his blood poured out on our behalf, they would miss it&#39;s meaning and they would be grieving the holy spirit.

1 Corinthians 11:27-34 [Literal Translation of the Holy Bible]
27 So that whoever should eat this bread, or drink the cup of the Lord, unworthily, that one will be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread, and let him drink of the cup;
29 for he eating and drinking unworthily eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.
30 For this reason many among you are weak and feeble, and many sleep.
31 For if we discerned ourselves, we would not be judged.
32 But being judged, we are corrected by the Lord, that we not be condemned with the world.
33 So that, my brothers, coming together to eat, wait for one another.
34 But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, that you may not come together for judgment. And the other things I will set in order whenever I come.

Remember the apostle Paul was talking to baptized Christians here not to anyone outside the Christian congregation.

Let us all prayfully consider whether we are worthy to partake of the bread and the wine as the day and night for this observance draws near. :Yahoo_51:

Just my thought from FutureMan.


[/b]


FutureMan
Question: are you personaly born of spirit with the exspectation of rueling with Jesus Christ in heaven in Jehovahs precence?
Just a question!
Truthseeker

[Becka]

Why do the JWs still do the Memorial? Jesus said to do this in remembrance of Him until He returns. JWs claim He returned in 1914. Never understood that. :unsure: :huh:

[truthseeker]

Why do the JWs still do the Memorial? Jesus said to do this in remembrance of Him until He returns. JWs claim He returned in 1914. Never understood that. :unsure: :huh:[/b]


LOL- Good One Becka

[FutureMan]

<div class='quotemain'>Hello all, apart from the WTBTS literature, I have read many topics from many different sources on the new covenant.
And at least from two that I know of who claim to be of the anointed.

Now the question we need to ask is this.

Until Jesus does come is the Bible written for all his followers or disciples or Christians?

If so then what is the argument?

Are we to go outside of scripture and do the opposite to what he stated to his disciples back then, "This do to My remembrance"?

(Luke 22:19-20) [Literal Translation of the Holy Bible]
19 And taking a loaf, giving thanks, He broke, and gave to them, saying, This is My body being given for you. This do to My remembrance.
20 And in like manner the cup, after having supped, saying, This cup is the New Covenant in My blood, which is being poured out for you.

1 Corinthians 11:23-26 [Literal Translation of the Holy Bible]
23 For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread;
24 and giving thanks, He broke and said, Take, eat; this is My body which is broken on behalf of you; this do in remembrance of Me.
25 In the same way the cup also, after supping, saying, This cup is the New Covenant in My blood; as often as you drink, do this in remembrance of Me. See Luke 22:19, 20
26 For as often as you may eat this bread, and drink this cup, you solemnly proclaim the death of the Lord, until He shall come.

In fact according to scripture there is only one reason why you should not partake of the Lord&#39;s evening meal if you are a baptized Christian, and that is if you feel unworthy to.
The Christians back then were told to scrutinize (examine) themselves first before they partake because if they did not discern Jesus sacrifice being his body impaled on to the torture stake and his blood poured out on our behalf, they would miss it&#39;s meaning and they would be grieving the holy spirit.

1 Corinthians 11:27-34 [Literal Translation of the Holy Bible]
27 So that whoever should eat this bread, or drink the cup of the Lord, unworthily, that one will be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread, and let him drink of the cup;
29 for he eating and drinking unworthily eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.
30 For this reason many among you are weak and feeble, and many sleep.
31 For if we discerned ourselves, we would not be judged.
32 But being judged, we are corrected by the Lord, that we not be condemned with the world.
33 So that, my brothers, coming together to eat, wait for one another.
34 But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, that you may not come together for judgment. And the other things I will set in order whenever I come.

Remember the apostle Paul was talking to baptized Christians here not to anyone outside the Christian congregation.

Let us all prayfully consider whether we are worthy to partake of the bread and the wine as the day and night for this observance draws near. :Yahoo_51:

Just my thought from FutureMan.


[/b]


FutureMan
Question: are you personaly born of spirit with the exspectation of rueling with Jesus Christ in heaven in Jehovahs precence?
Just a question!
Truthseeker
[/b][/quote]

Hello Truthseeker wouldn&#39;t it be wonderful if I was reborn of the Holy Spirit and had a heavenly hope to look forward to?
But alas at this stage I do not feel that I am born of the holy spirit as yet.
But still I find the idea of going to heaven a better prospect than living here on earth.
But that is for Jehovah God to decide not for me or any one else for that matter.

Just my feelings on the matter, from FutureMan.

[FutureMan]

Thank you Bro Jay for being alert.

Jehovah made a Kingdom covenant with his son who in turn on his last night with his followers he included them in his Kingdom covenant,
It is only the ones that rule with Christ that partake of the emblems that sealed this Kingdom covenant.[/b]

Hello Stayawake, that must mean then by your reasoning then that because Judas Iscariot partook along with Jesus and his disciples, that he was included in the kingdom covenant?

Just a question to consider :Yahoo_33:

From FutureMan.

[FutureMan]

Just to add to my previous post, was not all the nation of Israel include in the Mosaic covenant?
Or was the mosaic covenant only for the Levite priests and the high priest who were mediating for the nation of Israel?
If then the Mosaic covenant was for all the house of Israel, why is it not the case that today the covenant is not for all the house of God which makes up all true Christians today, who are baptized in the name of the Father, the son (Jesus Christ) and the Holy Spirit?
How then can it only apply to those who will be kings and priests?

By that reasoning then if we are not all part of the new covenant then there is no point in being baptized at all as a Christian!
It just simply does not make sense to me and is going against all scripture.

My thought from FutureMan.

[Desert Blossom]

<div class='quotemain'>Thank you Bro Jay for being alert.

Jehovah made a Kingdom covenant with his son who in turn on his last night with his followers he included them in his Kingdom covenant,
It is only the ones that rule with Christ that partake of the emblems that sealed this Kingdom covenant.[/b]

Hello Stayawake, that must mean then by your reasoning then that because Judas Iscariot partook along with Jesus and his disciples, that he was included in the kingdom covenant?

Just a question to consider :Yahoo_33:

From FutureMan.
[/b][/quote]

May I butt in here for a moment? :blush: If Judas did partake, then he did so unworthily, right? There&#39;s possibly many who have partaken unworthily. Perhaps even those who had a record of being faithful, until one day they were not.

How many anointed ones are partaking unworthily today? How many have committed serious sins, yet are not repentant? They would be modern-day Judas types, wouldn&#39;t they?

[FutureMan]

<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>Thank you Bro Jay for being alert.

Jehovah made a Kingdom covenant with his son who in turn on his last night with his followers he included them in his Kingdom covenant,
It is only the ones that rule with Christ that partake of the emblems that sealed this Kingdom covenant.[/b]

Hello Stayawake, that must mean then by your reasoning then that because Judas Iscariot partook along with Jesus and his disciples, that he was included in the kingdom covenant?

Just a question to consider :Yahoo_33:

From FutureMan.
[/b][/quote]

May I butt in here for a moment? :blush: If Judas did partake, then he did so unworthily, right? There&#39;s possibly many who have partaken unworthily. Perhaps even those who had a record of being faithful, until one day they were not.

How many anointed ones are partaking unworthily today? How many have committed serious sins, yet are not repentant? They would be modern-day Judas types, wouldn&#39;t they?
[/b][/quote]

Jesus knew before hand that it was Judas that was going to betray him yet he included judas in the partaking, does that not occur to anyone of the significance of that fact?

[dgibson]

The covenant was originated between 12 individuals, and they were given a helper namely the holy spirit. To aid them in that day, to gather in those who would be worthy of sharing in the new covenant relationship, as future heavenly sons of the true God Jehovah.

Jesus did not call for a world wide structured christian baptismal harvesting machine to be designed and built. To organize, gather in, and pit out those who are considered unworthy of remaining in synchronization, with 12 proven untrustworthy, indiscreet, narrow minded, modern-day spiritual rulers, either.

If

[dgibson]

The covenant was originated between 12 individuals, and they were given a helper namely the holy spirit. To aid them in that day, to gather in those who would be worthy of sharing in the new covenant relationship, as future heavenly sons of the true God Jehovah.

Jesus did not call for a world wide structured christian baptismal harvesting machine to be designed and built. To organize, gather in, and pit out those who are considered unworthy of remaining in synchronization, with 12 proven untrustworthy, indiscreet, narrow minded, modern-day spiritual rulers, either.

If you

[dgibson]

Hog-wash! The Christian congregations full of other sheep, are not in any convenant relationship, unless they willingly get baptised for the right reasons, and are approved by Jehovah as such.

All these baptisms that are coerced through scare tactics, parental approvals, or by peer pressures from congregational meetings, and groups of individuals, have to be considered null, and void in the eyes of Jehovah at this time.

When the two witnesses show up with given powers to gather people, then I would think all will have to be baptised, or rebaptised.

I don&#39;t think Jehovah, or Jesus, intended on us true christians, to build a huge human spiritual harvesting machine without clean mirrors, having twelve steering wheels, 12 brake levers, 12 turn signals, and a bad clock, with millions of smaller machine parts, all malfuctioning at the same time. :icon_rolleyes:

[Rogue]

Just to add to my previous post, was not all the nation of Israel include in the Mosaic covenant?
Or was the mosaic covenant only for the Levite priests and the high priest who were mediating for the nation of Israel?
If then the Mosaic covenant was for all the house of Israel, why is it not the case that today the covenant is not for all the house of God which makes up all true Christians today, who are baptized in the name of the Father, the son (Jesus Christ) and the Holy Spirit?
How then can it only apply to those who will be kings and priests?

By that reasoning then if we are not all part of the new covenant then there is no point in being baptized at all as a Christian!
It just simply does not make sense to me and is going against all scripture.

My thought from FutureMan.[/b]

I agree with u Futureman, and that is why I don&#39;t think there is any ground to say that only the annointed can partake at the memorial, also, there is no scripture supporting the idea that the &#39;other sheep&#39; should only watch the ceremony as outsiders, not a single scripture!! I don&#39;t have the heavenly hope, I look forward to living on earth in paradise, but I don&#39;t see ANY reason why the other sheep cannot partake at the memorial! Jesus didn&#39;t mention two groups, one group celebrating and one watching, he simply commanded to keep doing so untill he comes!

As I said before, I don&#39;t plan on partaking at the memorial, simply because I don&#39;t want to cause a great disturbance.. but in my heart I feel that it&#39;s a big nonsence!

I loved Becka&#39;s post btw, about why JW&#39;s still celebrate the memorial if they believe Jesus already came!!

[Rogue]

<div class='quotemain'>Forgive me, but where did Robert say that we are all under the new covenant and are thus invited to partake of the emblems, and what did he say exactly?

Thanks,

Brother Jay[/b]

The only thing I can recall having written on that topic is the essay entitled New Covenant for a New Creation (http://e-watchman.com/essays/new-covenant-new-creation.html)

watchman

[/b][/quote]

It could be that I&#39;m confusing ur essays with a post I read on the board about this matter... sometimes I just don&#39;t know what I read and where I read it ;)

[Rogue]

To better understand the New Covenant, we should review the Abrahamic Covenant, and the subsequent covenant Jehovah had made with the nation of Israel: I shall surely bless you and I shall surely multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand that are on the seashore; and your seed will take possession of the gate of his enemies. And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice." (Genesis 22:17, 18)

It is good to remember that up to this point Jehovah&#39;s cryptic promise about the "seed" that was to crush the head of the serpent has not yet been expanded upon. (Gen. 3:15) Now, Jehovah, "the One telling from the beginning the finale", has stated that this promised seed will come through Abraham&#39;s lineage. This promised seed will "take possession of the gate of his enemies" and, the most important point of all: all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves because of this seed. Additionally, Jehovah promised to multiply Abraham&#39;s seed "like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand that are on the seashore".Of course, Abraham&#39;s seed multiplied greatly, through his grandson, Jacob, who had 12 sons. Jacob&#39;s name was later changed to Israel, hence we have the 12 tribes of Israel. Under Joseph, this Abrahamic family was protected, and grew exponentially over the course of 400 years. (Genesis 15:13)

After their miraculous escape from Pharaoh&#39;s army by Jehovah&#39;s hand, Jehovah made a covenant with the nation of Israel:"And now if YOU will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then YOU will certainly become my special property out of all [other] peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. And YOU yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you are to say to the sons of Israel." (Exodus 19:5, 6)

However, if we were to stop right here, one would ask: "Didn&#39;t Jehovah promised that all nations will bless themselves by means of this seed?" Yes, he did, which brings us to an important point. Jehovah has always intended on turning his attention to the Gentiles, the non-Jews. It was not predicated on whether or not the Jews were faithful.
“Look! There are days coming,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant; not one like the covenant that I concluded with their forefathers in the day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, ‘which covenant of mine they themselves broke, although I myself had husbandly ownership of them,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.” “For this is the covenant that I shall conclude with the house of Israel after those days,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I shall write it. And I will become their God, and they themselves will become my people.” “And they will no more teach each one his companion and each one his brother, saying, ‘KNOW Jehovah!’ for they will all of them know me, from the least one of them even to the greatest one of them,” is the utterance of Jehovah. “For I shall forgive their error, and their sin I shall remember no more." (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

Notice the reason why Jehovah instituted this New Covenant. True, Jehovah did mention that the Israelites did break the first covenant, but that was not the reason why he is concluding a new one. This new one, as Jehovah says, will allow permanent forgiveness of their sins. Remember, the original covenant had two very big limitations:
(1) It only applied to the natural Jews, but Jehovah&#39;s original promise to Abraham regarding his seed would benefit ALL mankind.
(2) As the Apostle Paul noted, the old Law Covenant, with the sacrifices that were offered through the Levite priesthood, does not allow for complete forgiveness of sins, but instead pointed out the need for Christ&#39;s perfect sacrifice:

"For since the Law has a shadow of the good things to come, but not the very substance of the things, [men] can never with the same sacrifices from year to year which they offer continually make those who approach perfect. Otherwise, would the [sacrifices] not have stopped being offered, because those rendering sacred service who had been cleansed once for all time would have no consciousness of sins anymore? To the contrary, by these sacrifices there is a reminding of sins from year to year, for it is not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take sins away." (Hebrews 10:1-4)

So this New Covenant was not instituted for the sole benefit of the 144,000 chosen to rule with Christ, but rather, it is what allows all faithful mankind to have their sins permanently forgiven, and declared righteous by means of their faith. (Galatians 3:7-9)

In Hebrews chapter 9, Paul compared the two covenants. Here are a few excerpts, showing the superiority and subsequent need for the New Covenant:

"However, when Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have come to pass, through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation, he entered, no, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time into the holy place and obtained an everlasting deliverance [for us]. For if the blood of goats and of bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who have been defiled sanctifies to the extent of cleanness of the flesh, how much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works that we may render sacred service to [the] living God?" (Hebrews 9:11-14)

We further read:
"So that is why he is a mediator of a new covenant, in order that, because a death has occurred for [their] release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, the ones who have been called might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance. For where there is a covenant, the death of the [human] covenanter needs to be furnished. For a covenant is valid over dead [victims], since it is not in force at any time while the [human] covenanter is living. Consequently neither was the former [covenant] inaugurated without blood. For when every commandment according to the Law had been spoken by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of the young bulls and of the goats with water and scarlet wool and hyssop and sprinkled the book itself and all the people, saying: “This is the blood of the covenant that God has laid as a charge upon YOU.” And he sprinkled the tent and all the vessels of the public service likewise with the blood. Yes, nearly all things are cleansed with blood according to the Law, and unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place." (Hebrews 8:15-22)

As we can see, the purpose of the New Covenant, is the redemption of all mankind, be it Jew or Gentile, anointed or non-anointed. The Old Covenant Jehovah had made with nation of Israel served its purpose, by leading them to Christ. (Galatians 3:24) Under this New Covenant, faithful mankind&#39;s sins are forgiven permanently, something that was not possible until Jesus&#39; death as Paul mentioned. Through Jehovah&#39;s mercy and love for the entire human race, he has opened a way out of the turmoil that Adam placed his offspring in due to his disobedience. (John 3:16; Romans 5:12) As Paul stated, under this New Covenant validated by Jesus&#39; perfect blood, all faithful Christians are finally able to worship Jehovah with a clean conscience. Furthermore, as you can see, there is no mention of these provisions being exclusive to the anointed ones.

One final point to ponder. Is it possible to be a "beneficiary" of a covenant you are not part of? "Covenant" literally means "agreement". We have many such types in this world. So ask yourself: "Is it possible to receive benefits of an agreement that I&#39;m not a part of"? Doesn&#39;t make sense, does it? The whole "beneficiaries but not part of the New Covenant" for those with the earthly hope is totally without scriptural merit.
It is also interesting to note that Jehovah had made a separate covenant with the priesthood during the time the original Law Covenant was still in effect. This included the construction, transportation, and maintenance of the Tabernacle:
“And you must put the altar of burnt offering before the entrance of the tabernacle of the tent of meeting, and you must put the basin between the tent of meeting and the altar and put water in it. And you must place the courtyard round about and put up the screen of the gate of the courtyard. And you must take the anointing oil and anoint the tabernacle and all that is in it, and you must sanctify it and all its utensils, and so it must become something holy. And you must anoint the altar of burnt offering and all its utensils and sanctify the altar, and so it must become a most holy altar. And you must anoint the basin and its stand and sanctify it. “Then you must bring Aaron and his sons near to the entrance of the tent of meeting and wash them with water. And you must clothe Aaron with the holy garments and anoint him and sanctify him, and so he must act as priest to me. After that you will bring his sons near and you must clothe them with robes. And you must anoint them just as you anointed their father, and so they must act as priests to me, and their anointing must serve continually for them as a priesthood to time indefinite during their generations.” (Exodus 40:1-15)

Paul points out that the tabernacle was an illustration of something far grander:

"This very [tent] is an illustration for the appointed time that is now here, and in keeping with it both gifts and sacrifices are offered ... However, when Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have come to pass, through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation." (Hebrews 9:9a, 11)

That "perfect tent" was heaven, which the inside of the holy and most holy compartments represented. As Aaron foreshadowed, the greater High Priest, Jesus, presented his own perfect blood as the perfect sacrifice before Jehovah, much like the High Priest would offer sin offering on behalf of the people before the Ark of Covenant where a cloud was present, representing Jehovah&#39;s presence. (Hebrews 9:24-26; Leviticus 16:2, 14)

The 144,000, like the Aaronic priesthood foreshadowed before it, will also be able to enter in the "perfect tent (or tabernacle)", namely, heaven. (Hebrews 10:19, 20)

But like the original Law Covenant, the covenant with the priesthood was a separate covenant that was made possible by the Law Covenant Jehovah made with the entire nation of Israel. Likewise, the New Covenant that has since replaced the old Law Covenant includes ALL faithful Christians, who are referred to as sons of Abraham, his seed, and the sons of Israel. (Gal. 3:7,29; Revelation 7:4)

Much like Jehovah did with Aaron and his sons, who became the priesthood, Jesus made a separate covenant with certain members of the "sons of Israel". These members will make up the "royal priesthood&#39; Aaron&#39;s priestly lineage foreshadowed. (1 Peter 2:9)

However, the point is that Jehovah&#39;s covenant with the priesthood did not supplant or otherwise invalidate the covenant Jehovah had made with the entire nation of Israel at that time. Likewise, the covenant for a Kingdom Jesus had made with his anointed followers, will not supplant or restrict the covenant Jesus instituted on behalf of all faithful mankind. This is evident because those with the earthly hope seen in Revelation, the Great Crowd, have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. Jesus states that his blood represents the New Covenant:

"This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in your behalf." (Luke 22:20)

By Jesus&#39; own words, it would be impossible for someone to be cleansed by means of his blood if he or she is not part of the New Covenant. If you are to believe that the anointed are exclusively included in the New Covenant, then you must also acknowledge that those who are not anointed to rule with Christ are condemned to death. There is no mention by Jesus or any of his apostles that there will be those who benefit from the New Covenant without actually being part of it. It is quite evident that the "New Covenant" validated by his blood and the "Covenant for a Kingdom" are two separate covenants:

"Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: “This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf." (Luke 22:19, 20)

Jesus makes plain what the New Covenant&#39;s purpose is, to redeem faithful mankind by buying back what Adam lost. Consider what Jesus said about the Covenant for a Kingdom:

"However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that YOU may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel." (Luke 22:28-30)

Notice that Jesus here is not referring to the forgiveness of sins, nor is he using the emblems. Nor does he state that this covenant was validated with his blood. In fact, he states that he is making a covenant with them for a kingdom much like his Father has done with him. This is a totally different covenant than the one discussed earlier where Jesus will give his blood and body in the behalf of many.

[stayawake]

Hello Stayawake, that must mean then by your reasoning then that because Judas Iscariot partook along with Jesus and his disciples, that he was included in the kingdom covenant?
Just a question to consider
From FutureMan.
[/quote]

.........................................
Dear Furtureman
where in the scriptures does it say Judas was present for the introduction of the Kingdom Covenant? Can\&#39;t be found
there fore I made no suggestion that Judas was there.

Jesus came to fulfill the Law not break it. This last night was the celebration of the Passover , which would make Jesus third Passover with his discples..This last Passover with his disciples proved to be different,
How so?
It was during this last Passover meal that Jesus remarked that one of them was going to betray him. Matt 26: & Luke 22:

Although keep in mind Luke was not a eyewitness to all things rather he wrote from memory of the many things the apostles told him.
While they were still eating Jesus told Judas in private what ever he had to do do quickly. Judas left immediately to betray Jesus for 30 pcs, of silver.
]It was after Judas left this Passover feast that Jesus told his eleven remaining that his Father had made a Kingdom Covenant with him, and that he was going to include them n this Kingdom Covenant . That was the last Passover celebration Christ true followers would keep, replacing it with Christ Memorial.
No, Judas was not included in that Covenant.

If you have any old calendars from the WT society, their last Supper picture will show eleven disciples. Another topic for conversation with outsiders is most last supper pictures show a fish on each plate, where the main feature of the Passover was Lamb, which of course pictured the Lamb of God. Good conversational piece to share some truth.

Hope this clears up things.
love stayawake

[Utuna]

Dear all,

Judas didn&#39;t attend the Last Supper. Only John&#39;s Gospel relates the fact that Judas went out before Jesus shared his last supper with his faithful disciples.

Please read :"Therefore, after he received the morsel, he went out immediately. And it was night" - (John 13:30)

As for the significance of this Last Supper, it should be made clear that attending and partaking the emblems is not the way leading to salvation. No one will die at Armagedon because he never shared it previously. We&#39;ll only be saved if we have faith in Jesus&#39; sacrifice, such a faith meaning observing all the commandments that Jesus gave us while on earth. Granted, one of these commandments is to celebrate his death until he comes back. The Memorial is "just" a celebration, just as the Passover feast celebrated the moment when the Israelites went out of Egypt. The Passover means that the firstborns of Israel were saved from the destroyer (Heb11:28) "passing over" them because of their faith in the blood of the lamb that had been splashed upon the two doorposts and the upper part of their doorway. The lamb and its blood symbolizing Jesus and the firstborns symbolizing Jesus and his anointed brothers (1Cor15:23, Rom8:29), the Passover received a new meaning when Jesus died.

I&#39;m not saying that this celebration is not important. For sure, it is ! But it should be kept at its proper place.

In fact, the Memorial brings out the meaning of the symbols of the bread, the blood and indirectly of the water flowing from the rock-mass. The real significance of these symbols is to be found in the events that took place during the exodus, through the blood splashed upon the doorways, the manna and the water coming from the rock-mass (John 3:5, 4:14, 7:37-38, 1Cor10:3-4, Rv21:16). Later, Jesus said that the manna represented his body (might also represent God&#39;s Word, Jesus&#39; spiritual flesh). The water might also represent baptism (1 Peter 3:20; 1 Cor10:1-2) but I don&#39;t think that there is any link with Jesus&#39; statements about which I&#39;m talking about.

Please read :

"I am the bread of life. Your forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness and yet died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven so that anyone may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world." - (John 6:48-51)

Jesus is the head of the Congregation, this latter being his body, his bride and his future wife (1Cor6:15-20, 1Cor10:16-17; 1Cor12:12-26; Eph5:28-32; 2Cor11:2). Jesus&#39; blood represents what seals the New Covenant symbolized by the cup. The New Covenant wouldn&#39;t have been considered as valid if Jesus&#39; life wasn&#39;t forfeit on the torture stake (1Cor10:16; Heb9:16). Hence, if we share the emblems during the Memorial, it means that we not only have faith in the value of Jesus&#39; blood as a mean of salvation for the Israel of God at first, but also that we consider ourselves as belonging to Jesus&#39; spiritual body, with all that it implies and/or conveys as responsabilities. As I said above, faith in Jesus&#39; sacrifice is required to be saved, not the celebration of the Memorial. In addition, the New Covenant is between God and the Israel of God only, not with mankind as a whole. Thus, those who don"t belong to the Israel of God don&#39;t have to share something that is not destined to them. Mankind as a whole will enter into the Israel of God (or be considered as sons of God) in the fullest sense of the expression after the end of the 1 000 years reign. That&#39;s why the Bible says that the 144 000 kings and priests are the "firstfruits" (James1:18; Rv14:4) because they&#39;ll receive beforehand and in the fullest manner the spiritual benefits of God&#39;s close relationship (I let the physical perfection aside because the 144 000 are not concerned by such an arrangement).

Even if the benefits of the New Covenant will be applied to the whole universe, in comparison, only a "small" group (Israel of God) will have an active part in it. Interestingly, Jesus could choose his 12 disciples but that&#39;s Jehovah alone Who chooses who will reign with His son.

Please read :

"He said to them :"You will indeed drink my cup, but this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father". - (Mat20:23)

"Now we know that God makes all his works cooperate together for the good of those who love God, those who are the ones called according to his purpose because those whom he gave his first recognition he also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers" - (Rom8:28-29)

"just as he chose us in union with him before the founding of the world that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love. For he foreordained us to the adoption through Jesus Christ as sons to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"... "in union with whom we were also assigned as heirs, in that we were foreordained according to the purpose of him who operates all things according to the way his will counsels," - (Eph1:4-5, 11)

"...and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens..." - (Heb12:23)

"...These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb" - (Rv14:4)

"... Also, those called and chosen and faithful with him will do so". - (Rv17:14b)

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Utuna]

Dear all,

I just would like to add a final thought.

What is the tent ?

The tent is the physical body of the anointed ones (1Cor6:19), that&#39;s why they must keep it clean and pure till they die or God changes it into a spiritual one.

Please read :

"For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, should be dissolved, we are to have a building from God, a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens. For in this dwelling house we do indeed groan, earnestly desiring to put on the one for us from heaven so that, having really put it on, we shall not be found naked*. In fact, we who are in this tent groan, being weighed down, because we want, not to put it off, but to put on the other, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now he that produced us for this very thing is God, who gave us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit" - (2Cor5:1-5)

"But I consider it right, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to rouse you by way of reminding you, knowing as I do that the putting off of my tabernacle is soon to be, just as the Lord Jesus Christ signified to me..." - (2Peter1:13-14)

Moses built the tabernacle, which was later replaced by the Salomon&#39;s Temple. The same will occur when the anointed ones serving God in earthly vessels (2Cor4:7), or in tabernacles, will all be united into God&#39;s temple built in heaven by the Great Salomon, Jesus. All the events regarding God&#39;s Temple, recorded in the book of Revelation, are related to this joyful completion. Just as Moses sprinkled with blood the tabernacle and all its utensils (Heb9:21), so did Jesus with his own blood upon the anointed ones, considering them as pure and clean (Heb9:23) and holy, that is set apart and dedicated to God. As a consequence, the anointed ones received God&#39;s Holy Spirit, being declared pure and clean, at the Pentecost in 33CE.

* Some Bible commentators think that this allusion to being naked is a metaphoric mention of death. Paul wished to receive his spiritual body before dying (1Cor15:51-52).

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[stayawake]

What a pleasure to see how many understanding the deeper things of God on this subject. Thank you so much for sharing.

This comes only thru searching Gods word, Digging praying, pondering asking, The rewards are very satisfying , to be enlightened to see the things that men as leaders cannot give us.
After a little more digging I must share more about Judas.

Jesus commended those eleven that stayed for the passing of the emblems as the ones who stuck with him.
This certainly would not include Judas.

Later Jesus himself said, "it would have been finer for that man (Judas )if he had not been born. Later Christ in prayer to his Father ,Jesus called Judas the " son of destruction ".
Mark 14:21 -John 17:12,

love
stayawake

[Utuna]

"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[uglyandthin]

What a pleasure to see how many understanding the deeper things of God on this subject. Thank you so much for sharing.

This comes only thru searching Gods word, Digging praying, pondering asking, The rewards are very satisfying , to be enlightened to see the things that men as leaders cannot give us.
After a little more digging I must share more about Judas.

Jesus commended those eleven that stayed for the passing of the emblems as the ones who stuck with him.
This certainly would not include Judas.

Later Jesus himself said, "it would have been finer for that man (Judas )if he had not been born. Later Christ in prayer to his Father ,Jesus called Judas the " son of destruction ".
Mark 14:21 -John 17:12,

love
stayawake[/b]

Hi Stayawake:

Do you think that Jesus excluded the owner of the house and his family members from this Passover as they also were Jews obligated to celebrate? "We just want to use your house, but you go somewhere else and celebrate". Seems suspicious to me. Also, no one is really called so-and-so, are they? Who&#39;s identity were they trying to hide by calling him so-and-so? Any ideas? This was not long after Lazarus was resurrected from the dead. The Pharisees were not only seeking to kill Jesus but also had it in for Lazarus. Could so-and-so have been the name they gave to Lazarus to hide his identity? If so, would it be normal for Jesus to use his house but not invite his everlasting son (he did resurrect him from the dead and no doubt had a special love for him) to celebrate the most important Passover in nearly 1500 years with him? And if it is possible that that is so, would he not also invite his sisters whom he also had affection for and who were faithful followers? Just some questions for thought! Perhaps even the WTBTS is incorrect in the amount they include in illustrations of the "Last Supper".

uglyandthin

[BrotherJay]

<div class='quotemain'>Thank you Bro Jay for being alert.

Jehovah made a Kingdom covenant with his son who in turn on his last night with his followers he included them in his Kingdom covenant,
It is only the ones that rule with Christ that partake of the emblems that sealed this Kingdom covenant.[/b]

Hello Stayawake, that must mean then by your reasoning then that because Judas Iscariot partook along with Jesus and his disciples, that he was included in the kingdom covenant?

Just a question to consider :Yahoo_33:

From FutureMan.
[/b][/quote]
Wasn&#39;t Judas dismissed before the emblems were consumed and after the passover celebration?

Brother Jay

[Utuna]

Dear all,

Some might wonder how the Holy Spirit could remain upon people considered as clean and pure, while so much evil is shown through the deeds of so-called anointed ones ?

At first, being anointed and having received a part of God&#39;s Holy Spirit, while exercizing assigned duties through earthly vessels, isn&#39;t a guaranty of perfection. The apostle Paul himself said that he had to fight hard against his fleshly desires. In addition, even if the apostles commended the congregations to which they sent letters, many problems were going on under cover and needed to be staunchly resolved. Some might see a weakness from God&#39;s part to use imperfect people as leaders of God&#39;s organization, if He ever decides to forgive some of them despite what they might have done. Isn&#39;t God&#39;s power more conspicuous while many miracles are being accomplished through other imperfect but faithful beings ? What a relief to know that those who&#39;ll reign over mankind will have to cope with their imperfection till the end, proving nevertheless their faithfulness to the point beyond which Jehovah decides that it is enough, meaning death for some of them. They&#39;ll both know how hard it is to fight against fleshly desires, but they&#39;ll have experienced too how strong God&#39;s power is, and how much it can help us all to overcome our strongest fleshly drives. They&#39;ll also know what it feels like being considered as a cursed class by outsiders because some of them didn&#39;t act like they ought to... despite all their personal efforts to live up to the call they received.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[FutureMan]

[stayawake]

Dear u&t
I feel I reached the end of my journey on this Post.
I really don&#39;t think my ideas are worth a pail of beans with out scriptural, support.

Everything that we need to know has been written, and still is not clear to all , so until one can digest and accept what is already written,
what we would like to know , will have to be put on the back burner,
sorry !
..............
Dear futureman,
You are absolutely right, the holy scriptures do not lie&#39;
Luke was not a eye witness to all things, he wrote as to what he was told by the apostles, so he wrote from all their views and not all being in the order that events took place.
To get the hole picture one must view all the scripture on a certain subject this is how scripture interpets itself.

you missed looking into
Matt 26:21-25
Mark 14:18-21
John 13:21-30

One doesn&#39;t want to just select scripture to support what we believe, rather we believe because of what the scriptues say.

Hey listen if you want to partake and really believe that thats how you are reading the scriptures, I am sure Jehovah will not hold you accountable,
so don&#39;t worry about it. Jehovah sees the heart.

Its the weeds that are in Gods Household who delberate partake for appearence sake , or to lord it over some of the sheep they are the ones that are drinking unworthly . Rev 2:9 -3:9

[FutureMan]

Dear u&t
I feel I reached the end of my journey on this Post.
I really don&#39;t think my ideas are worth a pail of beans with out scriptural, support.

Everything that we need to know has been written, and still is not clear to all , so until one can digest and accept what is already written,
what we would like to know , will have to be put on the back burner,
sorry !
..............
Dear futureman,
You are absolutely right, the holy scriptures do not lie&#39;
Luke was not a eye witness to all things, he wrote as to what he was told by the apostles, so he wrote from all their views and not all being in the order that events took place.
To get the hole picture one must view all the scripture on a certain subject this is how scripture interpets itself.

you missed looking into
Matt 26:21-25
Mark 14:18-21
John 13:21-30

One doesn&#39;t want to just select scripture to support what we believe, rather we believe because of what the scriptues say.

Hey listen if you want to partake and really believe that thats how you are reading the scriptures, I am sure Jehovah will not hold you accountable,
so don&#39;t worry about it. Jehovah sees the heart.

Its the weeds that are in Gods Household who delberate partake for appearence sake , or to lord it over some of the sheep they are the ones that are drinking unworthly . Rev 2:9 -3:9[/b]

[panda]

I have a question. Judas left before Jesus instituted the evening meal, memorial(so Judas was not taken into the covenant ) BUT he was not replaced till after the memorial. So my question do the 12 apostles represent the 12 tribes of Israel that the 14400 came from? if so their was only eleven that partook of the original evening meal. (Luke 12:3, 22:21-23. Matt 26:20-29 John 13:21-30).

(Acts 1:15,16. 20-26). Mathias was chosen. So when was he taken into the covenant, to make up the twelve? or did their have to be an original twelve?

May seem strange question, but Jehovah is always perfect in numbers that represent certain other fulfillments, 12 tribes of Israel, 12 disciples. Rev 14.

[mrgalleria]

[quote]
I have a question. Judas left before Jesus instituted the evening meal, memorial(so Judas was not taken into the covenant ) BUT he was not replaced till after the memorial. So my question do the 12 apostles represent the 12 tribes of Israel that the 14400 came from? if so their was only eleven that partook of the original evening meal.

Aloha,
Judas did partake.
The twelve apostles are overseers of the twelve tribes, symbolized by Israels (Jacobs) 12 sons.
Each tribe consists of 12,000.
Bill

[Rogue]

Hmm... somehow this changed into the discussion: was Judas part of the Memorial? I think it is evident in the Bible that he did partake... as Futerman cleary prooves by letting the scriptures do the talking!

My original question though, was how people see the regulation put down by the WTBTS, that the Great Crowed are mearly outsiders watching the event of the Memorial, while there is no scriptual support for this! Nor is there real scriptual support for saying that the 144.000 are the only ones that are part of the new convenant.... as I explained in my (very long) post (sorry for that).

I have always found it a bit strange as well, that the WT learn us that the New Testament of the bible is actualy only written for the annointed and that we merely are outsiders in God&#39;s plan, just a small part of it, not even being part of the new convenant.... correct me if I&#39;m wrong... but what really is Gods plan?? Is it not to have prefect people living forever on earth? That was his original plan and in his original plan there was no mention of annointed kings in heaven.... He made the arrangement to have human kings in heaven, for the benefit of those on earth, right? So it&#39;s not true that we are just a small part of Gods plan... the annointed are in fact just a small addition to Gods original plan... (not to be condensending about the annointed, it is a grand privillege they have been giving, being immortal). Jesus died so that God could correct Adams misstep and humans could enjoy everlasting life again on a paradise earth! That is Gods plan, is it not?? So where in history did it happen that the annointed alone where the Israel of God and Gods people, and we were just outsiders benefitting from it? Is it not a perfect way for the annointed in Bethel to obtain their rule and power? I don&#39;t think that is a biblical view at all... and I think it is outrages that the Great Crowd is degrated to be outsiders at the Memorial, as if it is not important for them to remember the sacrifice Jesus made, and as if they do not wash their robes in the blood of the lamb!

[Utuna]

Dear all,

Here are some interesting details :

JUDAS ISCARIOT

B. Interpretation. The activity of Judas should be seen in comparison with other events that took place before, during, and after the crucifixion. The disciples had expected Jesus to restore the kingdom to Israel (Luke 24:24; Acts 1:6). Peter rebuked Jesus when He suggested that He would go up to Jerusalem to be killed (Matt 16:21-23). James and John had asked for official positions when Jesus became king (Matt 20:20-24; Mark 10:35-40). The disciples had quarreled about their respective ranks and positions before the Last Supper (Luke 22:24-26). Jesus had promised that those who left all to follow Him would be repaid amply in terms of material goods in this life (Matt 19:28; Mark 10:28-30; see also Matt 6:33). Evidently the disciples had expected Jesus to contest the authority of the Romans when He went up to the feast at Jerusalem, just as many aspiring messianic kings had done before Him. Had He led a military revolution, there were those, like Peter, who would have been willing to die with Him in battle (Matt 26:33; Mark 14:29-31; Luke 22:33). It was only after it became clear that Jesus was not going to lead an insurrection that Peter denied Jesus (Matt 26:69-75; Mark 14:66-72; Luke 22:54-62) and Judas betrayed Jesus to the chief priests.

Judas&#39;s betrayal may have been done out of genuine patriotic devotion. According to this view, Judas, as a sicarius, was ready to employ military strength to over-throw Rome. When he learned that Jesus was not going to lead a military revolt, he considered Jesus to be a fifth columnist or saboteur of some sort who was weakening the military strength of Israel by recruiting some of the nation&#39;s leaders and then refusing to employ them in a military rebellion. Although he had responded favorably to Jesus&#39; teaching, he could not follow a teacher who was not prepared to lead a war. So he parted company with Jesus, and as a disillusioned disciple, he retaliated against Jesus by turning Him over to the proper authorities — not so much because he loved money but because he loved his country and thought Jesus was delaying the movement that would free Palestine from the Romans. Another interpretation is that Judas was convinced that Jesus was the Messiah, but Judas was impatient. He acted as he did, therefore, in an attempt to force Jesus to take the stand Judas anticipated. Such attempts at historical understanding are, of course, tentative. It is not possible to trace with certainty the detailed course of events, nor to distinguish with confidence the background and motivation of Judas. The NT itself offers us an important theological interpretation, and it is in terms of this interpretation that our assessment of Judas is properly to be made.

"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[panda]

oh ok. I find Rogue your personal statement interesting is that someone else&#39;s or something you personally wrote.We cannot always build the future for our youth, but we can build our youth for the future


Just to keep to the theme. No I don&#39;t think all should participate, I believe it is for the anointed only, those in the new covenant, 14400.

cheers

[shira]

I have always found it a bit strange as well, that the WT learn us that the New Testament of the bible is actualy only written for the annointed and that we merely are outsiders in God&#39;s plan, just a small part of it, not even being part of the new convenant.... correct me if I&#39;m wrong... but what really is Gods plan?? Is it not to have prefect people living forever on earth? That was his original plan and in his original plan there was no mention of annointed kings in heaven.... He made the arrangement to have human kings in heaven, for the benefit of those on earth, right? So it&#39;s not true that we are just a small part of Gods plan... the annointed are in fact just a small addition to Gods original plan... (not to be condensending about the annointed, it is a grand privillege they have been giving, being immortal). Jesus died so that God could correct Adams misstep and humans could enjoy everlasting life again on a paradise earth! That is Gods plan, is it not?? So where in history did it happen that the annointed alone where the Israel of God and Gods people, and we were just outsiders benefitting from it? Is it not a perfect way for the annointed in Bethel to obtain their rule and power? I don&#39;t think that is a biblical view at all... and I think it is outrages that the Great Crowd is degrated to be outsiders at the Memorial, as if it is not important for them to remember the sacrifice Jesus made, and as if they do not wash their robes in the blood of the lamb![/b]

Rogue, I agree with you. I think the anointed obedient and true know that they are in fact the servants of Jehovah&#39;s people on earth. A much more central view taken for the people to be on paradise earth than those called to die to that future and be instead the servants of all. It&#39;s too bad that the GB grew to twist and exploit this, or that people fell into error that ends up harming their relationships with Jehovah. As all faithful, the anointed should know they are nothing but for the task given by Jehovah. There is no good reason in the world for there to ever be bad feeling between those with earthly vs heavenly hope, but the 1914/1935 error of the wt, and the disobedient or false anointed, have not helped this.

[Utuna]

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Utuna]

--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Rogue]

oh ok. I find Rogue your personal statement interesting is that someone else&#39;s or something you personally wrote.We cannot always build the future for our youth, but we can build our youth for the future


Just to keep to the theme. No I don&#39;t think all should participate, I believe it is for the anointed only, those in the new covenant, 14400.

cheers[/b]


I wish I could claim the quote as my own, but nope, it&#39;s a quote from Franklin Roosevelt... it&#39;s very true though! :)