Ishmael And Prophetic Types

[SlaveForJah]

Hello all. So, I have been thinking about Jehovah's promise to Hagar and Ishmael and how that prophecy might be fulfilled, and whether or not it has any application to today. Also Nambo's thread about Edom prompted some questions as well. Here's the account:

"9 And Sarah kept noticing the son of Ha´gar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, poking fun. 10 So she began to say to Abraham: "Drive out this slave girl and her son, for the son of this slave girl is not going to be an heir with my son, with Isaac!" 11 But the thing proved to be very displeasing to Abraham as regards his son.12 Then God said to Abraham: "Do not let anything that Sarah keeps saying to you be displeasing to you about the boy and about your slave girl. Listen to her voice, because it is by means of Isaac that what will be called your seed will be. 13 And as for the son of the slave girl, I shall also constitute him a nation, because he is your offspring." 14 So Abraham got up early in the morning and took bread and a skin water bottle and gave it to Ha´gar, setting it upon her shoulder, and the child, and then dismissed her. And she went her way and wandered about in the wilderness of Be´er-she´ba.15 Finally the water became exhausted in the skin bottle and she threw the child under one of the bushes. 16 Then she went on and sat down by herself, about the distance of a bowshot away, because she said: "Let me not see it when the child dies." So she sat down at a distance and began to raise her voice and weep.

17 At that God heard the voice of the boy, and God's angel called to Ha´gar out of the heavens and said to her: "What is the matter with you, Ha´gar? Do not be afraid, because God has listened to the voice of the boy there where he is. 18 Get up, lift up the boy and take hold of him with your hand, because I shall constitute him a great nation." 19 Then God opened her eyes so that she caught sight of a well of water; and she went and began to fill the skin bottle with water and to give the boy a drink. 20 And God continued to be with the boy, and he kept growing and dwelling in the wilderness; and he became an archer. 21 And he took up dwelling in the wilderness of Pa´ran, and his mother proceeded to take a wife for him from the land of Egypt." - Genesis 21:9-21




We all know that Jehovah's promise to Abraham about the seed coming through his line was fulfilled in Christ. How was Jehovah's promise to Hagar and Ishmael fullilled?

The following are just conjecture, but I am curious if anyone else has similar thoughts or ideas about the following.

The Nation of Israel (at Sinai) = Christianity?

The Northern Kingdom and Southern Kingdom = Bible Students and Jehovah's Witnesses, respectively?

Samaritans = Islam?

Edom = The fallen anointed? or Judaism?

Ishmael = Who?


Interested to see everyone's thoughts.


Agape

SlaveForJah

[shikinah]

I think i posted something on this last year, and im sure i was told that ishmael's nation is the muslim nation today, but it doesnt explain why Jehovah would use the word "great" to apply to a people who dont acknowledge him as Jehovah? he could have said a big or strong nation, plus there was an angel intervention which indicates this was a very important message to Hagar.

Sisterly Love
Elizabeth

[shira]

I think i posted something on this last year, and im sure i was told that ishmael's nation is the muslim nation today, but it doesnt explain why Jehovah would use the word "great" to apply to a people who dont acknowledge him as Jehovah? he could have said a big or strong nation, plus there was an angel intervention which indicates this was a very important message to Hagar.

Sisterly Love
Elizabeth[/b]

My thoughts, the word used there was gadol, which does mean great as in large or significant in this case.

I have always thought of Yishmael as Islam, Samaritans as the mixed Jews from after the Assyrian exile, and Edom as the northern peoples who made up Christendom.

Just recently I have been trying to learn more of the Bible students having left, what that means...

Love,
Shira

[littleone]

This is a fairly easy one. As a matter of fact, Paul, in Galatians chapter 4 describes Ishmael as opposed to Isaac. It had everything to do with spiritual things, and not fleshly things at all. For Sarah represents "heavenly Jerusalem", while Hagar represented "fleshly Jerusalem". Likewise, Sarah represented those who are born under the "new covenant", and Hagar those who are born in the "law covenant". Actually, Paul describes it best... so let's consider his words:


Tell me, YOU who want to be under law, Do YOU not hear the Law? 22 For example, it is written that Abraham acquired two sons, one by the servant girl and one by the free woman; 23 but the one by the servant girl was actually born in the manner of flesh, the other by the free woman through a promise. 24 These things stand as a symbolic drama; for these [women] mean two covenants, the one from Mount Si´nai, which brings forth children for slavery, and which is Ha´gar. 25 Now this Ha´gar means Si´nai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

27 For it is written: “Be glad, you barren woman who does not give birth; break out and cry aloud, you woman who does not have childbirth pains; for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous than [those] of her who has the husband.” 28 Now we, brothers, are children belonging to the promise the same as Isaac was. 29 But just as then the one born in the manner of flesh began persecuting the one born in the manner of spirit,so also now . 30 Nevertheless, what does the Scripture say? “Drive out the servant girl and her son, for by no means shall the son of the servant girl be an heir with the son of the free woman.” 31 Wherefore, brothers, we are children, not of a servant girl, but of the free woman. [/b]

It was at the bequest of Sarah that the servant girl and her son were driven out from before Abraham's face. Likewise, Heavenly Jerusalem also pleads out to Jehovah to remove all those who are born according to the flesh from his face. For it is only those who are born by the spirit and the promise who will be considered "Abraham's seed". Likewise, those born of the "flesh" prove to be more numerous than those born of the spirit.

As for the promise to Ishmael, does his name not mean "God will hear"? For the scripture says that when the child cried out that Jehovah listened to him.


At that God heard the voice of the boy, and God’s angel called to Ha´gar out of the heavens and said to her: “What is the matter with you, Ha´gar? Do not be afraid, because God has listened to the voice of the boy there where he is. 18 Get up, lift up the boy and take hold of him with your hand, because I shall constitute him a great nation.” 19 Then God opened her eyes so that she caught sight of a well of water; and she went and began to fill the skin bottle with water and to give the boy a drink. - Genesis 21:17-19[/b]

Also, Jehovah gave this promise to Hagar:


Then Jehovah’s angel said to her: “I shall greatly multiply your seed, so that it will not be numbered for multitude" - Gen 16:10.”[/b]

So then, shall Jehovah not show Ishmael mercy? Paul mentions to us the following:


Now I speak to YOU who are people of the nations. Forasmuch as I am, in reality, an apostle to the nations, I glorify my ministry, 14 if I may by any means incite [those who are] my own flesh to jealousy and save some from among them. 15 For if the casting of them away means reconciliation for the world, what will the receiving of them mean but life from the dead? 16 Further, if the [part taken as] firstfruits is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are also.

17 However, if some of the branches were broken off but you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the olive’s root of fatness, 18 do not be exulting over the branches. If, though, you are exulting over them, it is not you that bear the root, but the root you. 19 You will say, then: “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 All right! For [their] lack of faith they were broken off, but you are standing by faith. Quit having lofty ideas, but be in fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 See, therefore, God’s kindness and severity. Toward those who fell there is severity, but toward you there is God’s kindness, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise, you also will be lopped off. 23 They also, if they do not remain in their lack of faith, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature and were grafted contrary to nature into the garden olive tree, how much rather will these who are natural be grafted into their own olive tree!

25 For I do not want YOU, brothers, to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for YOU not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, 26 and in this manner all Israel will be saved. Just as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion and turn away ungodly practices from Jacob. 27 And this is the covenant on my part with them, when I take their sins away.” 28 True, with reference to the good news they are enemies for YOUR sakes, but with reference to [God’s] choosing they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are not things he will regret. 30 For just as YOU were once disobedient to God but have now been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so also these now have been disobedient with mercy resulting to YOU, that they themselves also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut them all up together in disobedience, that he might show all of them mercy." - Romans 11:13:32

Just as the physical nation of Israel and their earthly kingdom was cast aside, as one of the nations, so that those of the nations could be called "spiritual Israel" and become sharers in the heavenly kingdom, and share in being a part of the "olive tree" and being called "first fruits" of those "reconciled" from the world to God. Jehovah will likewise once again show mercy to those born of the flesh, when these ones cry out, and wash their robes in the "blood of the lamb" and they will be led to fountains of water of life. They will be a "great multitude in which no man is able to number" (Gen 16:10, Rev 7:9). They too will be called "Israel", for it is by the means of Abraham's seed, namely Jesus Christ, that all the nations will bless themselves. For he himself bears witness that Jehovah will also restore the earthly kingdom to Israel, and those who become apart of her, For he says:


“Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, YOU who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for YOU from the founding of the world. - Matt 25:34[/b]

It was always Jehovah's intention to not only have a heavenly kingdom, but also an earthly kingdom. Yet, because of physical Israel's disobedience, they were to have no share in the "heavenly kingdom" as the scripture says:
“Drive out this slave girl and her son, for the son of this slave girl is not going to be an heir with my son, with Isaac!” - Gen 21:10[/b]

So that which was earthly and physical, namely Israel, lost the Kingdom because of their disobedience. Yet, as Paul mentions, Jehovah will have mercy... for it is his intention to restore a physical Israel to the Kingdom once again.

For we read concerning the prophecy of Gog of Magog that Jehovah says concerning his people:


“Therefore prophesy, O son of man, and you must say to Gog, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “Will it not be in that day when my people Israel are dwelling in security that you will know [it]? - Eze 38:14[/b]

Does Jehovah not call those who are on earth after the 1000 years as Revelation brings out (Rev 20:7-9), "his people"? They are called "Israel". In the same manner, they too will be grafted into the "olive tree" that is called Israel. For the scriptures bear witness that Jehovah will "spread his tent" over them, and they will serve him night and day in his temple. As it is right now, only "spiritual Israel", the "congregation of the firstborn", the "congregation of the firstfruits" are able to serve Jehovah in his temple. Yet, when this happens, and Jehovah shows mercy to "fleshly Israel", and not only to them... but to all those who bless themselves by means of Abraham's seed, then they will become "sons of God". They will become "his people", in a special relationship with him... for he spreads his tent over them, and they are led to fountains of water of life, and they render him service night and day in his temple. They then become "earthly Israel"... in a special covenant relationship with Jehovah.

Paul mentions the part that is taken as "firstfruits" is holy. Well, the firstfruits are those of the "congregation of the firstborn". Holy spirit was poured out on them at Pentecost 33CE, which is in connection with the "festival of first fruits". Likewise, these ones became the "firstfruits" of the Holy spirit. For revelation 14:4 says concerning these ones:


These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb - Rev 14:4[/b]

Yet, Paul also mentions that the "whole lump" will be holy. This is represented in by the "festival of ingathering", when the general harvest begins. This festival was the most joyous festival of them all. It represents the time when Jehovah will poor out the Holy spirit on the "whole lump" in the general "ingathering". This is when Jehovah restores the earthly kingdom. They become "earthly Israel"... Jehovah's people. They are represented by the "great crowd", which no man is able to number. They bless themselves by means of Abraham's seed. How? The scripture says they keep crying out with a loud voice:


“Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb. - Rev 7:10”[/b]

These ones "washed their robes" in the blood of the lamb. Because of this faith that they've showed, they come under a new arrangement with Jehovah, and he spreads his "tent" over them. They are led to the fountains of water of life... and are able to serve him in his temple night and day. They then become Jehovah's special possession. "Earthly Israel".

[truthseeker]

Just as the physical nation of Israel and their earthly kingdom was cast aside, as one of the nations, so that those of the nations could be called "spiritual Israel" and become sharers in the heavenly kingdom, and share in being a part of the "olive tree" and being called "first fruits" of those "reconciled" from the world to God. Jehovah will likewise once again show mercy to those born of the flesh, when these ones cry out, and wash their robes in the "blood of the lamb" and they will be led to fountains of water of life. They will be a "great multitude in which no man is able to number" (Gen 16:10, Rev 7:9). They too will be called "Israel", for it is by the means of Abraham's seed, namely Jesus Christ, that all the nations will bless themselves. For he himself bears witness that Jehovah will also restore the earthly kingdom to Israel, and those who become apart of her, For he says:

Dear Littleone
</span>I don&#39;t believe I have ever seen this prophetic pattern sown together like this: It makes very good sense. Good job!
:applaudit:
Truthseeker</span>

[truthseeker]

Just as the physical nation of Israel and their earthly kingdom was cast aside, as one of the nations, so that those of the nations could be called "spiritual Israel" and become sharers in the heavenly kingdom, and share in being a part of the "olive tree" and being called "first fruits" of those "reconciled" from the world to God. Jehovah will likewise once again show mercy to those born of the flesh, when these ones cry out, and wash their robes in the "blood of the lamb" and they will be led to fountains of water of life. They will be a "great multitude in which no man is able to number" (Gen 16:10, Rev 7:9). They too will be called "Israel", for it is by the means of Abraham&#39;s seed, namely Jesus Christ, that all the nations will bless themselves. For he himself bears witness that Jehovah will also restore the earthly kingdom to Israel, and those who become apart of her, For he says:

Dear Littleone
</span>I don&#39;t believe I have ever seen this prophetic pattern sown together like this: It makes very good sense. Good job!
:applaudit:
Truthseeker</span>[/b]

And: Salve for Jah

[shikinah]

Little one im impressed, you really explained that so all could understand

Thank you
Elizabeth

[SlaveForJah]

Hey littleone,

Thanks for your take on things. Well spoken.

But it doesn&#39;t really answer the question of the fulfillment of Jehovah&#39;s prophetic promise to Hagar and Ishmael. How was this fulfilled...or was it fulfilled yet? Surely the promise to make Ishmael a great nation was not fulfilled in Israel. I am not debating what application Paul made towards those under Law and those under Christ. But surely there must be another meaning to Jehovah&#39;s promise to prosper Ishmael.


Agape

SlaveForJah

[littleone]

Hey littleone,

Thanks for your take on things. Well spoken.

But it doesn&#39;t really answer the question of the fulfillment of Jehovah&#39;s prophetic promise to Hagar and Ishmael. How was this fulfilled...or was it fulfilled yet? Surely the promise to make Ishmael a great nation was not fulfilled in Israel. I am not debating what application Paul made towards those under Law and those under Christ. But surely there must be another meaning to Jehovah&#39;s promise to prosper Ishmael.


Agape

SlaveForJah[/b]
Hi SlaveForJah,

If what you&#39;re asking is for a fulfillment in the flesh, according to the Hebrew scriptures, then you will not find one... for this prophetic drama foretold future things concerning the Christ. If you&#39;re looking for where Jehovah made Ishmael a "great nation" in the Hebrew scriptures, you will not find it... for the Ishmaelites were a nomadic people.

Some people will claim that the fulfillment of this promise happened towards the 7th century CE, with the Islamic movement. They claim that the Arabs, who were Ishmael&#39;s descendants, became a great nation through the movement of Islam. Before Islam, the descendants of Ishmael were basically considered nomadic tribes. However, with the Islamic movement, the Arabic language and culture gained prominence, and disseminated and spread... becoming a "great nation".

However, this happened roughly 700 years after Jesus Christ was on earth. Did this happen because of "Jehovah"? We have to think about this for a second....

If the Islamic movement was really from Jehovah, then we are to be the most pitied of all people on the earth. Because this would mean that Jehovah abandoned Christianity, and handed the covenant over to the Muslims as they believe.... they also believing that Jesus Christ was merely a prophet, and not God&#39;s son at all. If this really is the case... then we are really in big trouble.

Yet, as Paul brought out, the "symbolic drama" (Galatians 4:24) of Ishmael began with the casting aside of the physical nation of Israel, after Christ&#39;s death. Likewise, the "symbolic drama" ends when Jehovah once again turns his attention back towards Ishmael and "shows him mercy". This is when Jehovah once again will restore "earthly Israel", as brought out in the post above. Yet, this has NOTHING to do with the nation of Israel as it is today being restored in the middle east... but has a future fulfillment in the earthly "Israel of God". Yet, this will not happen "until the full number of people of the nations has come in" to the vine of promise (Romans 11:25). Namely, the vine of Christ.

Satan has all sorts of "counterfeit" fulfillments of this prophecy that we could look at. For instance, some could argue that if the "vine of Christ" was brought to its completion at or around 1935 as the WT society claims ("No more anointed!!), then Israel being restored as a nation in the middle east in 1948 "could" be a fulfillment of this prophecy. Yet, is the nation of Israel today something that Jehovah would claim as being "his people"? If so, then once again we are to be the most pitied of all people... for this would mean that Christianity was already rejected.

[Utuna]

Dear littleone,

As usual, it&#39;s a great job ! Thanks for sharing your detailed understanding of the Bible.

I&#39;ve made some complementary research on this subjet. I have no merit at all, just copied-and-pasted excerpts ! I&#39;m a pure cheater ! lol

ISHMAEL
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton