View Full Version : Jw 1925
shikinah
04-06-2009, 02:22 PM
I was looking as i usually do, and didnt realise that 1925 was one of the dates of end prophesied by the JW's.
"Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews 11, to the condition of human perfection." Millions Now Living Will Never Die, page 89
"The date 1925 is even more distinctly indicated by the Scriptures than 1914."<span style="font-family:Verdana"> The Watchtower, Sept 1, 1922, page 262
"Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge." The Watchtower, April 1, 1923, page 106
"It is to be expected that Satan will try to inject into the minds of the consecrated, the thought that 1925 should see an end to the work." The Watchtower, Sept, 1925 page 262. (very strange quote)
Is the Watchtower admitting Satan injected into their minds the thought that 1925 should see the end of the work?
"Some anticipated that the work would end in 1925, but the Lord did not state so. The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason; and that when their imaginations burst asunder, they were inclined to throw away everything." The Watchtower, page 232
"There was a measure of disappointment on the part of Jehovah's faithful ones on earth concerning the years 1917, 1918, and 1925, which disappointment lasted for a time...and they also learned to quit fixing dates." Vindication, page 338.
"True, there have been those in times past who predicted an 'end to the world', even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The 'end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing?.. Missing from such people were God's truths and evidence that he was using and guiding them." Awake, October 8, 1968 (jokers)
Im some what confused, it sounds like the wts is suffering from some form of schizophrenia, how can they make so many contradictions?
Elizabeth
</span>
diamondiiz
04-06-2009, 02:40 PM
Hi Shicinah:
Ya isn't it funny how the leaders over and over used nonsense to keep people blinded by time sequences! Good to see you do research on all those things. Beth Sarim and Beth Sham are interesting items to research too. WTS can spin anything anyway they want to. They were right about 1914 thanks to holy spirit, they were wrong about dates but were also guided by spirit...blah.blah.blah...... lol
Deeper you search to more you understand why some teachings came about and how it benefited WTS at the time. 1925 is no exception.
I'm doing research on Russell's court cases at present but it's slow going to find actual documents :(
Molly
04-06-2009, 02:41 PM
Hi Elizabeth-
This is standard language for the WTS, and as you have clearly demonstrated, it goes back a long way.
First, they imply that a date/situation "could" be very significant or a turning point of some sort. They repeat it regularly and expect that all witnesses repeat it as well, even encouraging them to regard the notions as fact. Then, when it doesn't happen they say, we never said that was a fact, we said it "could." They separate themselves from guilt by shifting the blame to "others" who repeated the "false prophesy" and believed it because it supposedly came from the FDS. They accept no responsibility for encouraging the sheep to believe their lies. It's just a psychological manipulation of the congregation.
They did it just the same way in 1975.
Molly
shikinah
04-06-2009, 03:57 PM
Hi Molly & Diamondiiz,
i knew things wernt perfect in the wts but this is madness, no wonder theres no old literature available. And whats sad even if you took all of this information and made it into a book, they would say its apostate, when all you are doing is searching for truth amongst twisted lies.
Elizabeth
shikinah
04-06-2009, 04:13 PM
"Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge." The Watchtower, April 1, 1923, page 106
How can they possibly make this quote?
What did they base their 1925 date on? Noah was a man who walked with god, noah actually saw the nephilim and was given direction directly from god to build an ark which literally floated on the waters which Jehovah had promised he would send. I noticed this was printed in the April 1st Watchtower, everyone was an april fool to believe this nonsense.
Elizabeth
Tsaphah
04-06-2009, 08:49 PM
"Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge." The Watchtower, April 1, 1923, page 106
How can they possibly make this quote?
What did they base their 1925 date on? Noah was a man who walked with god, noah actually saw the nephilim and was given direction directly from god to build an ark which literally floated on the waters which Jehovah had promised he would send. I noticed this was printed in the April 1st Watchtower, everyone was an april fool to believe this nonsense.
Elizabeth[/b]
Do you think that Jehovah is allowing these dates to be used by the WTB&TS, to let all his faithful followers recognize, that it is not an organization or man made time-tables that we should follow.
I think it is a weeding out process, to separate the wheat from the chaff. (Mt 13:49; 25:32) And of course, more importantly, Acts 1:7.
Deut. 6:5,
Tsaphah
shikinah
04-06-2009, 09:30 PM
<div class='quotemain'>"Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge." The Watchtower, April 1, 1923, page 106
How can they possibly make this quote?
What did they base their 1925 date on? Noah was a man who walked with god, noah actually saw the nephilim and was given direction directly from god to build an ark which literally floated on the waters which Jehovah had promised he would send. I noticed this was printed in the April 1st Watchtower, everyone was an april fool to believe this nonsense.
Elizabeth[/b]
Do you think that Jehovah is allowing these dates to be used by the WTB&TS, to let all his faithful followers recognize, that it is not an organization or man made time-tables that we should follow.
I think it is a weeding out process, to separate the wheat from the chaff. (Mt 13:49; 25:32) And of course, more importantly, Acts 1:7.
Deut. 6:5,
Tsaphah
[/b][/quote]
Sometimes i find it all very over whelming, we put our heart and trust into an organisation which tells us the truth about Jehovah, then these so called inspired anointed get the dates so far off the mark. How can you be so good at one thing and totally wack with the other. If you havnt a pc theres no way on earth you would know this information. So is all of this beneficial or not? or is it best to be in ignorance?
Elizabeth
Jahsdisciple
04-06-2009, 10:20 PM
And Jesus disciples thought that the kingdom was going to display itself instantly dispite Jesus being with them. Luke 19:11. They were keen for the Kingdom to come and in their eagernes ran ahead. Im sure also that many of the 'non disciples' were caught up in this as well because they would have given the 12's personal opinions some credibility.
So because they had these views,they obviously were not Jesus true disciples..right ?
This view was a reflection of their immaturity and early beginnings of being with Jesus.
Early quotes are a refelction of the same kind of beginning...its was early and its reflected their early ideas. Unfortuately,other people get caught up in it also. We all want the end to come. Some get a bit to keen.
Jahsdisciple
FutureMan
04-07-2009, 04:12 AM
And Jesus disciples thought that the kingdom was going to display itself instantly dispite Jesus being with them. Luke 19:11. They were keen for the Kingdom to come and in their eagernes ran ahead. Im sure also that many of the 'non disciples' were caught up in this as well because they would have given the 12's personal opinions some credibility.
So because they had these views,they obviously were not Jesus true disciples..right ?
This view was a reflection of their immaturity and early beginnings of being with Jesus.
Early quotes are a refelction of the same kind of beginning...its was early and its reflected their early ideas. Unfortuately,other people get caught up in it also. We all want the end to come. Some get a bit to keen.
Jahsdisciple[/b]
From 1970 to 2007 Jehovah's Witnesses were exposed to teachings about the year 1914 in their publications a total of 6156 times. This means that at least four times per week the average Jehovah's Witness is reminded of the importance of the year 1914.(End of quote)
From FutureMan.
shikinah
04-07-2009, 04:20 AM
<div class='quotemain'>And Jesus disciples thought that the kingdom was going to display itself instantly dispite Jesus being with them. Luke 19:11. They were keen for the Kingdom to come and in their eagernes ran ahead. Im sure also that many of the 'non disciples' were caught up in this as well because they would have given the 12's personal opinions some credibility.
So because they had these views,they obviously were not Jesus true disciples..right ?
This view was a reflection of their immaturity and early beginnings of being with Jesus.
Early quotes are a refelction of the same kind of beginning...its was early and its reflected their early ideas. Unfortuately,other people get caught up in it also. We all want the end to come. Some get a bit to keen.
Jahsdisciple[/b]
From 1970 to 2007 Jehovah's Witnesses were exposed to teachings about the year 1914 in their publications a total of 6156 times. This means that at least four times per week the average Jehovah's Witness is reminded of the importance of the year 1914.(End of quote)
From FutureMan.
[/b][/quote]
Sometimes i do wonder about all this, the wts are more concerned with dates than any other religion i know. All this 1914, 1919, 1925, 1975 are they doomsday warnings to put the fear of god into people to encourage the preaching campaign and up the numbers, this equals more donations..i dont like to think this way, but im trying to see some logic in making so many failed predictions.
Elizabeth
panda
04-07-2009, 04:48 AM
Hi Elizabeth-
This is standard language for the WTS, and as you have clearly demonstrated, it goes back a long way.
First, they imply that a date/situation "could" be very significant or a turning point of some sort. They repeat it regularly and expect that all witnesses repeat it as well, even encouraging them to regard the notions as fact. Then, when it doesn't happen they say, we never said that was a fact, we said it "could." They separate themselves from guilt by shifting the blame to "others" who repeated the "false prophesy" and believed it because it supposedly came from the FDS. They accept no responsibility for encouraging the sheep to believe their lies. It's just a psychological manipulation of the congregation.
They did it just the same way in 1975.
Molly[/b]Hi Molly you said it perfectly, that is EXACTLY what they have done and continued to do, 1975 being a beaut of mind manipulation, it really is evil. It is so unloving could only be from Satan himself.
I think we are in for some more of the crap they dish out as spiritual encouraging food at the improper time. The talk by Sam Herd "Are you ready for the finish line" was absurd. Just theatrical, thats it theatrical, drama and fear.
panda :icon_redface:
shikinah
04-07-2009, 05:03 AM
<div class='quotemain'>Hi Elizabeth-
This is standard language for the WTS, and as you have clearly demonstrated, it goes back a long way.
First, they imply that a date/situation "could" be very significant or a turning point of some sort. They repeat it regularly and expect that all witnesses repeat it as well, even encouraging them to regard the notions as fact. Then, when it doesn't happen they say, we never said that was a fact, we said it "could." They separate themselves from guilt by shifting the blame to "others" who repeated the "false prophesy" and believed it because it supposedly came from the FDS. They accept no responsibility for encouraging the sheep to believe their lies. It's just a psychological manipulation of the congregation.
They did it just the same way in 1975.
Molly[/b]Hi Molly you said it perfectly, that is EXACTLY what they have done and continued to do, 1975 being a beaut of mind manipulation, it really is evil. It is so unloving could only be from Satan himself.
I think we are in for some more of the crap they dish out as spiritual encouraging food at the improper time. The talk by Sam Herd "Are you ready for the finish line" was absurd. Just theatrical, thats it theatrical, drama and fear.
panda :icon_redface:
[/b][/quote]
Well they actually admit in the quote i posted that it was satan putting thoughts in their minds? Sometimes i wonder are they taking the p$ss, sorry to be so crude, but to actually admit that to us too, i dont get it.
Its cruel to think so many bless them havnt a clue, all those who believe the wts is whiter than white it makes me wanto cry :boohoo:
Elizabeth
Jahsdisciple
04-07-2009, 06:06 AM
Hi Molly you said it perfectly, that is EXACTLY what they have done and continued to do, 1975 being a beaut of mind manipulation, it really is evil. It is so unloving could only be from Satan himself.
panda :icon_redface:[/b]
If you dont know that you can improve your life now,then you only look to the future...and the bigger the mess your life is(or think it is),the more you look forward to better times,which only the new world will bring.
satan knows this and exploits it,but to say its satanic/from him, is missing the point i raise. The hysteria of 1975 is a case in point. I grew up as a kid then and remember how people longed for the end to come.
Who likes to have to go to a job you hate ? waste 45 years to earn filthy money and your potential never seen ? see your parents grow old...or die from horrible ilness. This explains the longing people have for this tortureous life to end. And when you constantly hear every week of an idealistic life,it makes life even worse in some ways.
Isnt the New World something we all want to happen...even quickly ? We all want a better life,so if this is reflected in blind hope and wishing it to hurry up,why should this surprise us ? JD.
truthseeker
04-07-2009, 06:12 AM
<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>"Our thought is, that 1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures. As to Noah, the Christian now has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had upon which to base his faith in a coming deluge." The Watchtower, April 1, 1923, page 106
How can they possibly make this quote?
What did they base their 1925 date on? Noah was a man who walked with god, noah actually saw the nephilim and was given direction directly from god to build an ark which literally floated on the waters which Jehovah had promised he would send. I noticed this was printed in the April 1st Watchtower, everyone was an april fool to believe this nonsense.
Elizabeth[/b]
</span></span>
And Jesus disciples thought that the kingdom was going to display itself instantly despite Jesus being with them. Luke 19:11. They were keen for the Kingdom to come and in their eagerness ran ahead. Im sure also that many of the 'non disciples' were caught up in this as well because they would have given the 12's personal opinions some credibility.
So because they had these views, they obviously were not Jesus true disciples. right?
This view was a reflection of their immaturity and early beginnings of being with Jesus.
Early quotes are a reflection of the same kind of beginning...it's was early and its reflected their early ideas. Unfortunately, other people get caught up in it also. We all want the end to come. Some get a bit to keen.
Jahsdisciple
<span style="color:#0000ff"><span style="color:#0000ff"><span style="color:#0000ff"> Relating to your comments regarding dates. I remember a talk at a circuit assembly, about a year ago in the, </span>Seattle area given by a representative of Bethel. Don't remember the theme but he made a grand comment concerning the Feb:2,2008.</span> Watchtower concerniing an article titled; Christ's Presence – What does it Mean to You? Personally what I gleaned from the article was that the generation that Jesus talks about in Math the 24th Chapter was not a generation previously described by the WTS (which they admit to in the article) it is the generation regarding the anointed and when they were fist anointed during the festival of Pentecost. And that generation of anointed have continued to this day and will see the fulfillment of Jehovah's Day. </span>
My point to this is what the brother said he said that with this new understanding that the society could get read of the last Crutch regarding Dates and such. I hope I made sense if anyone wants I could provide the article!
<span style="color:#0000ff">truthseekr
truthseeker
04-07-2009, 06:26 AM
<div align="center">Christ's Presence—What Does It Mean to You?</div>
<div align="left">"What will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?"—MATT. 24:3.</div>
<div align="left">NEARLY two thousand years ago, a question was raised by four of Jesus' apostles in a private conversation with their Master on the Mount of Olives. They asked: "When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?" (Matt. 24:3) In that question, the apostles used two very interesting expressions, "your presence" and "the conclusion of the system of things." To what do those expressions refer?</div>
<sup><div align="left">2</sup> To take the second expression first, consider the term "conclusion," the translation of the Greek word syn·te′lei·a. In the New World Translation, this word is consistently rendered "conclusion," whereas a related Greek word, te'los, is translated "end." The difference in the meaning of these two words can be illustrated by describing a talk given at the Kingdom Hall. The conclusion of the talk is the last section, in which the speaker spends a little time reminding the audience of what he has been discussing and then shows how that information applies to them. The end of the talk is when the speaker walks off the platform. In a similar way, Biblically speaking, the term "the conclusion of the system of things" refers to the period of time leading up to and including its end.</div>
<sup><div align="left">3</sup> What of the "presence" that the apostles asked about? This is the translation of the Greek word pa·rou·si′a. Christ's pa·rou·si′a, or presence, started with Jesus' installation as King in heaven in 1914 and continues on to include the "great tribulation," during which he comes to destroy the wicked. (Matt. 24:21) Many different things, including "the last days" of this wicked system of things, the gathering of the chosen ones, and their resurrection to heavenly life, occur during this presence of Jesus. (2 Tim. 3:1; 1 Cor. 15:23; 1 Thess. 4:15-17; 2 Thess. 2:1) It could be said that the period constituting "the conclusion of the system of things" (syn·te′lei·a) corresponds to or runs parallel with the period called Christ's presence (pa·rou·si′a).</div>
<div align="center">An Extended Period of Time</div>
<sup><div align="left">4</sup> The fact that the word pa·rou·si′a refers to an extended period of time harmonizes with what Jesus said with regard to his presence. (Read Matthew 24:37-39.) Notice that Jesus did not liken his presence to the relatively short period of time during which the Flood occurred in Noah's day. Rather, he compared his presence to the much longer period of time that led up to the Flood. Included therein were Noah's building of the ark and his preaching work, right up until the time that the Flood finally arrived. Those events occurred over many decades. In a similar way, Christ's presence includes the events leading up to and including the great tribulation.—2 Thess. 1:6-9.</div>
<sup><div align="left">5</sup> Other Bible prophecies make it evident that Christ's presence refers to an extended period of time and not merely to his coming to destroy the wicked. The book of Revelation portrays Jesus as riding on a white horse and being given a crown. (Read Revelation 6:1-8.) After being crowned as King in 1914, Jesus is pictured as going "forth conquering and to complete his conquest." The account then shows that he is followed by riders seated on different-colored horses. These prophetically represent war, food shortages, and pestilence, all of which have occurred over the extended period of time that is referred to as "the last days." We are seeing the fulfillment of this prophecy in our lifetime.</div>
<sup><div align="left">6</sup> Revelation chapter 12 provides further details concerning the establishment of God's Kingdom in heaven. There we read of a battle in the invisible realm. Michael—Jesus Christ in his heavenly position—and his angels fight against the Devil and his demons. As a result, Satan the Devil and his hordes are cast down to the earth. At that point, the account tells us, the Devil has great anger, "knowing he has a short period of time." (Read Revelation 12:7-12.) Clearly, then, the establishment of Christ's Kingdom in heaven is followed by a period of time that is marked by increased "woe" for the earth and its inhabitants.</div>
<sup><div align="left">7</sup> The second psalm likewise speaks prophetically of the installation of Jesus as King upon heavenly Mount Zion. (Read Psalm 2:5-9; 110:1, 2.) However, this psalm also indicates that there is a period of time when earth's rulers, along with their subjects, are given an opportunity to submit to Christ's rule. They are admonished to "exercise insight" and to allow themselves to be "corrected." Yes, during that time "happy are all those taking refuge in him [God]" by serving Jehovah and his appointed King. So, then, a window of opportunity is opened during Jesus' presence in kingly power.—Ps. 2:10-12.</div>
<div align="center">Recognizing the Sign</div>
<sup><div align="left">8</sup> When asked by the Pharisees about the time the Kingdom would come, Jesus answered that it would not come "with striking observableness" from their viewpoint. (Luke 17:20, 21) Unbelievers would not understand. How could they? They did not even recognize Jesus as their future King. So who would both recognize the sign of Christ's presence and understand its significance?</div>
<sup><div align="left">9</sup> Jesus went on to say that his disciples would see the sign just as clearly as they would see "lightning, by its flashing, [which] shines from one part under heaven to another part." (Read Luke 17:24-29.) It is of interest to note that Matthew 24:23-27 directly links the same point with the sign of Christ's presence.</div>
<div align="center">The Generation Seeing the Sign</div>
<sup><div align="left">10</sup> Previously, this journal has explained that in the first century, "this generation" mentioned at Matthew 24:34 meant "the contemporaneous generation of unbelieving Jews." That explanation seemed reasonable because all other recorded uses that Jesus made of the term "generation" had a negative connotation, and in most cases, Jesus used a negative adjective, such as "wicked," to describe the generation. (Matt. 12:39; 17:17; Mark 8:38) Thus, it was felt that in the modern-day fulfillment, Jesus was referring to the wicked "generation" of unbelievers who would see both the features that would characterize "the conclusion of the system of things" (syn·te′lei·a) and the system's end (te′los).</div>
<sup><div align="left">11</sup> It is true that when Jesus used the word "generation" negatively, he was speaking to or about the wicked people of his day. But was that necessarily true of his statement recorded at Matthew 24:34? Recall that four of Jesus' disciples had approached him "privately." (Matt. 24:3) Since Jesus did not use negative qualifiers when speaking to them about "this generation," the apostles would no doubt have understood that they and their fellow disciples were to be part of the "generation" that would not pass away "until all these things [would] occur."</div>
<sup><div align="left">12</sup> On what basis may we draw that conclusion? By carefully considering the context. As recorded at Matthew 24:32, 33, Jesus said: "Now learn from the fig tree as an illustration this point: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and it puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors." (Compare Mark 13:28-30; Luke 21:30-32.) Then, at Matthew 24:34, we read: "Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur."</div>
<sup><div align="left">13</sup> Jesus said that it was his disciples, soon to be anointed with holy spirit, who should be able to draw certain conclusions when they saw "all these things" occur. So Jesus must have been referring to his disciples when he made the statement: "This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur."</div>
<sup><div align="left">14</sup> Unlike unbelievers, Jesus' disciples would not only see the sign but also understand its significance. They would "learn" from the features of that sign and "know" their true meaning. They would fully appreciate that "he is near at the doors." While it is true that both unbelieving Jews and faithful anointed Christians saw a limited fulfillment of Jesus' words in the first century, only his anointed followers back then could learn from these events—could understand the true meaning of what they saw.</div>
<sup><div align="left">15</sup> Those without spiritual understanding today have felt that there has been no "striking observableness" with regard to the sign of Jesus' presence. They reason that everything is continuing on as it did in the past. (2 Pet. 3:4) On the other hand, Christ's faithful anointed brothers, the modern-day John class, have recognized this sign as if it were a flash of lightning and have understood its true meaning. As a class, these anointed ones make up the modern-day "generation" of contemporaries that will not pass away "until all these things occur." This suggests that some who are Christ's anointed brothers will still be alive on earth when the foretold great tribulation begins.</div>
<div align="center">"Keep on the Watch"</div>
<sup><div align="left">16</sup> More is needed, though, than merely recognizing the sign. Jesus went on to say: "What I say to you I say to all, Keep on the watch." (Mark 13:37) This is of utmost importance to all of us today whether of the anointed or of the great crowd. Nine decades have passed since Jesus was installed as King in heaven in 1914. As challenging as it may be, we must prove ourselves ready and keep on the watch. Understanding that Christ is present invisibly in Kingdom power helps us to do that. It also alerts us to the fact that soon he will come to destroy his enemies "at an hour that [we] do not think likely."—Luke 12:40.</div>
<sup><div align="left">17</sup> Our understanding of the meaning of Christ's presence helps to intensify our feelings of urgency. We know that Jesus is already present and has been reigning invisibly as King in heaven since 1914. Soon he will come to destroy the wicked and bring about vast changes to this entire globe. We should therefore be more determined than ever to take an active part in the work that Jesus foretold when he said: "This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end [te′los] will come."—Matt. 24:14.</div>
<div align="left"><span style="font-family:Arial">[Box on page 25]</div>
<div align="left">Can We Calculate the Length of "This Generation"?</div>
<div align="left">The word "generation" usually refers to people of various ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period or event. For example, Exodus 1:6 tells us: "Eventually Joseph died, and also all his brothers and all that generation." Joseph and his brothers varied in age, but they shared a common experience during the same time period. Included in "that generation" were some of Joseph's brothers who were born before him. Some of these outlived Joseph. (Gen. 50:24) Others of "that generation," such as Benjamin, were born after Joseph was born and may have lived on after he died.</div>
<div align="left">So when the term "generation" is used with reference to people living at a particular time, the exact length of that time cannot be stated except that it does have an end and would not be excessively long. Therefore, by using the term "this generation," as recorded at Matthew 24:34, Jesus did not give his disciples a formula to enable them to determine when "the last days" would end. Rather, Jesus went on to emphasize that they would not know "that day and hour."—2 Tim. 3:1; Matt. 24:36.</div>
<span style="font-family:Arial"><div align="left">[Footnotes]</div>
<div align="left">The meaning of pa·rou·si′a is seen from the contrast that is made between the "presence" and "absence" of the apostle Paul both at 2 Corinthians 10:10, 11 and at Philippians 2:12. For a detailed discussion, see Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2, pages 676-9.</div>
<div align="left">See The Watchtower, November 1, 1995, pages 11-15, 19, 30, 31.</div>
<div align="left">The time period during which "this generation" lives seems to correspond to the period covered by the first vision in the book of Revelation. (Rev. 1:10–3:22) This feature of the Lord's day extends from 1914 until the last of the faithful anointed ones dies and is resurrected.—See Revelation—Its Grand Climax At Hand! page 24, paragraph 4.</div>
</span></span>
truthseeker
04-07-2009, 06:41 AM
I would say this article is a direct rebuttal to Roberts's writings:
Juan23
04-07-2009, 10:47 AM
One thing the society can't do is to admit mistakes. Yet individual JW are required to do so. Note excerpted article. I just noticed the question asked is about YOU not WE.
Why Admit It When You Are Wrong?
“The only people who make no mistakes are dead people.” This has been said of imperfect humans. And when you think about matters, who is not wrong at times? Who does not make mistakes?
God’s Word, the Holy Bible, makes it clear that we all err, for it says: “There is no man righteous in the earth that keeps doing good and does not sin.” In the Bible, the Hebrew and the Greek words translated “sin” literally mean “missing the mark”—being wrong as far as God’s requirements are concerned.—Ecclesiastes 7:20.
Yet, common as it is to make a mistake, to be wrong—yes, to sin—how difficult it is to admit it! If you are a husband and father, do you not find yourself wanting to hedge when it comes to admitting to your wife or children that you are wrong? If you have a position of oversight, do you not find yourself reluctant to admit to your subordinates that you are wrong? Well, it is the same way with wives, children, employees and those in other circumstances.
Why We May Not Admit It
It seems to be human nature to try to justify ourselves. When we were youngsters, how hard it was for our parents to make us admit that we did wrong and should apologize for it! Having grown up, we may manifest a similar attitude. Thus a person may try to rationalize that what he did was not actually wrong, that someone else really was at fault, or that unusual circumstances were to blame.
Especially does it seem difficult for those in positions of responsibility to admit being wrong. Why? No doubt in many instances this is due to pride. They are concerned with what others may think; they want to “save face,” as the saying goes. But, then again, failure to admit being wrong may well be due to feelings of insecurity. A person may feel that his position is threatened if he admits a mistake.
No doubt some individuals are reluctant to admit that they are or have been wrong because of the price they might have to pay for their mistake. Thus a railway employee may have caused a serious accident due to negligence. But if he admits that he made a mistake, he may lose his job or even go to prison. Or, in the case of a physician, a costly malpractice suit might be involved, and admitting wrong may cost him or his insurance company a great deal of money.
Then, too, a person may have difficulty actually seeing things in their right light. As the Bible puts it, “Mistakes—who can discern?” Moreover, the heart may harbor emotions that prevent us from admitting our error. Yes, “the heart is more treacherous than anything else .*.*. Who can know it?”—Psalm 19:12; Jeremiah 17:9.
Unfavorable Consequences
Shortsighted self-interest may prompt us to justify ourselves rather than admitting that we are wrong. But regardless of our reasoning, refusing to admit it when we are wrong has unfavorable consequences. For instance, it can cause strained relations with members of our families or with those with whom we work or worship. By refusing to admit it when we are wrong, either we try the patience of others or we lose their respect. And most likely we create a barrier that interferes with free communication.
Still more serious is the fact that refusing to admit it when we are wrong burdens us with a guilty conscience, especially if someone else gets the blame for what we have done. And if we shrink back from admitting one wrong, this may get to be a habit. Having refused to admit small mistakes, we may soon refuse to admit making large ones, all to our undoing. As a result, even in a case of grave sin our conscience may get seared as with a branding iron. (1*Timothy 4:1, 2) Above all, such a course is bound to harm our relationship with our Creator, Jehovah God.
Examples From the Past
Failing to admit that we are wrong by trying to shift the blame to others puts us in some rather poor company. For his disobedience, the first man, Adam, blamed ‘the woman God gave him.’ In turn, Eve blamed the serpent. However, God did not accept these excuses but held the original human pair accountable. Then there was King Saul, who failed to execute completely God’s judgment upon the wicked Amalekites. When Saul was asked why, he blamed his people. But God did not accept that excuse either.—Genesis 3:12-19; 1*Samuel 15:15-23.
On the other hand, the Bible gives us examples to show that we should admit it when we are wrong. Among these was that of Judah. He was wrong in his dealings with his widowed daughter-in-law Tamar. When brought face to face with his responsibility for her pregnancy, Judah admitted: “She is more righteous than I am.” (Genesis 38:26) But at least he admitted that he was wrong.
Then there was King David. He did various things to conceal his sin with Bath-sheba. When confronted by the prophet Nathan, David confessed: “I have sinned against Jehovah.” (2*Samuel 12:13) Yes, David did thus admit that he had been guilty of wrongdoing.
Good Results
We do well to recall these ancient examples and admit it when we are wrong. Among other things, doing so results in better relations with our families. We will also get along better with our superiors by not trying their patience so much. Significantly, we are told in the Scriptures: “If the spirit of a ruler should mount up against you, do not leave your own place, for calmness itself allays great sins”—yes, even very serious wrongs.—Ecclesiastes 10:4.
What if we have a position of responsibility? Well, willingness to admit that we are wrong will earn the respect of our subordinates. Furthermore, with such an attitude we will be in a position to make progress in overcoming our weaknesses.
Especially is it vital that we maintain a clear conscience and good relationship with our God. Hence, if we have erred seriously, let us, first of all, admit that we have sinned. In earnest prayer, may we seek our heavenly Father’s merciful forgiveness through Jesus Christ. (Psalm 103:10-14; 1*John 2:1, 2) And may we also take full advantage of spiritual assistance available to us. (James 5:13-16) This is the course of wisdom, for God’s Word tells us: “He that is covering over his transgressions will not succeed, but he that is confessing and leaving them will be shown mercy.”—Proverbs 28:13.
Aids in Overcoming the Tendency
Clearly, we need help if we are to overcome this tendency not to admit it when we are wrong. Often a sense of humor will be of help, especially if the wrong or mistake is not too serious or weighty. Thus one good housewife was carrying a number of dinner plates when she stumbled and dropped the whole stack, smashing all of them. At that, she burst out laughing, for it seemed to her that such a thing simply could not happen to her. And yet it did! Yes, often a sense of humor will keep us from taking ourselves too seriously, which frequently is at the bottom of our not wanting to admit that we have made a mistake.
Honesty and empathy also enter the picture. If certain persons are entitled to know that we have erred, we should be willing to admit the wrong. Especially should empathy move us to admit it if another person would otherwise be blamed and would suffer for our mistake. Here Jesus’ words apply: “Just as you want men to do to you, do the same way to them.”—Luke 6:31.
Humility also will help us to admit a wrong. When we think it through, failure to admit a wrong borders on hypocrisy, does it not? Neither the haughty person nor the hypocrite has God’s approval.—Proverbs 21:4; James 3:17.
Maintaining a close relationship with Jehovah will be of greatest help in our being willing to admit it when we are wrong. Why? Because we will be inclined to take all our concerns and errors to him in humble prayer. Then, confident in his aid and mercy, we will possess the unequaled “peace of God.”—Philippians 4:6, 7.
So, since we all err, let us acknowledge our mistakes. When we are in the wrong, may we humbly admit it. Then let us work on our errors constructively, to our own benefit and to that of others.
[Picture on page 29]
David confessed: “I have sinned against Jehovah”
panda
04-07-2009, 01:26 PM
<div class='quotemain'>Hi Molly you said it perfectly, that is EXACTLY what they have done and continued to do, 1975 being a beaut of mind manipulation, it really is evil. It is so unloving could only be from Satan himself.
panda :icon_redface:[/b]
If you dont know that you can improve your life now,then you only look to the future...and the bigger the mess your life is(or think it is),the more you look forward to better times,which only the new world will bring.
satan knows this and exploits it,but to say its satanic/from him, is missing the point i raise. The hysteria of 1975 is a case in point. I grew up as a kid then and remember how people longed for the end to come.
Who likes to have to go to a job you hate ? waste 45 years to earn filthy money and your potential never seen ? see your parents grow old...or die from horrible ilness. This explains the longing people have for this tortureous life to end. And when you constantly hear every week of an idealistic life,it makes life even worse in some ways.
Isnt the New World something we all want to happen...even quickly ? We all want a better life,so if this is reflected in blind hope and wishing it to hurry up,why should this surprise us ? JD.
[/b][/quote]My life is improving only by my relationship with Jehovah not the organization, and I was new in the truth in the seventies, and we were told from the platform and in talks that the society suggests it best not to have children, as the end is so close they used the scripture woe to the pregnant women, and also Jeremiah's example, we were told its best not to marry and to pioneer, pioneer, that was drummed into us at every opportunity, many did sell their homes and many opted for casual work, sister not marrying and having children, today many pay for their what you call over zealousness and being young spiritually, rubbish that is hog wash JD. Then they turned it back on the hard working faithful b/s and said they were over zealous, but that was just a cop out.
Maybe it was a time of sifting and cleaning out, I know many that have come back, and I know others that survived that horrible fiasco only to leave later.
what the society did was build people up for something that they would not have thought of themselves only that the society pushed it published it and proudly gave those b/s accoladed for selling their houses and leaving their jobs to go where the need is grater.
Today the GB and their families are looked after, they don't have to worry about paying for doctors or dentists, heavy rent and other things they would take for granted, while the b/s have no children to care for them in their old age, and many other financial problems.
And yes of course we want the end to come, why wouldn't we as you say. Beside JD you obviously have problems with the org, otherwise you wouldn't be here. Perhaps your trek through the seventies and after was happier
Desert Blossom
04-07-2009, 02:44 PM
And Jesus disciples thought that the kingdom was going to display itself instantly dispite Jesus being with them. Luke 19:11. They were keen for the Kingdom to come and in their eagernes ran ahead. Im sure also that many of the 'non disciples' were caught up in this as well because they would have given the 12's personal opinions some credibility.
So because they had these views,they obviously were not Jesus true disciples..right ?
This view was a reflection of their immaturity and early beginnings of being with Jesus.
Early quotes are a refelction of the same kind of beginning...its was early and its reflected their early ideas. Unfortuately,other people get caught up in it also. We all want the end to come. Some get a bit to keen.
Jahsdisciple[/b]
Hi JD,
I speculate that if Russell had lived long enough, he would have realized his ideas about 1914 were mistaken and that he would have come right out and said it. He died before he could make those realizations. In steps Rutherford, who spends the next decade or so re-working the doctrine around 1914, and phasing out the doctrine about 1874.
The difference between Rutherford and his predecessors and the apostles? The apostles never made believing their false expectations a matter of loyalty to an earthly organization.
Here's a little excerpt from one of Watchman's essays:
http://www.e-watchman.com/essays/micah-jeh...legal-case.html (http://www.e-watchman.com/essays/micah-jehovah-legal-case.html)
Sadly, it has been demonstrated over and over again that institutional uniformity is more important than the truth. The Watchtower has even admitted that organizational conformity has priority over truth. The following is an excerpt from a court case in 1954 during which time one of the Society's officers (Haydon Covington) was put under oath and made to answer the following questions:
<div align="left">Q. That was the publication of false prophesy? </div>
<div align="left">A. That was the publication of a false prophesy, it was a false statement or an erroneous statement in fulfillment of a prophesy that was false or erroneous. </div>
<div align="left">Q. And that had to be believed by the whole of Jehovah's Witnesses? </div>
<div align="left">A. Yes, because you must understand we must have unity, we cannot have disunity with a lot of people going every way, an army is supposed to march in step. </div>
<div align="left">Q. Back to the point now. A false prophesy was promulgated? </div>
<div align="left">A. I agree that. </div>
<div align="left">Q. It had to be accepted by Jehovah's Witnesses? </div>
<div align="left">A. That is correct. </div>
<div align="left">Q. If a member of Jehovah's Witnesses took the view himself that that prophesy was wrong and said so he would be disfellowshipped? </div>
<div align="left">A. Yes, if he said so and kept persisting in creating trouble, because if the whole organisation believes one thing, even though it be erroneous and somebody else starts on his own trying to put his ideas across then there is disunity and trouble, there cannot be harmony, there cannot be marching. When a change comes it should come from the proper source, the head of the organisation, the governing body, not from the bottom upwards, because everybody would have ideas, and the organisation would disintegrate and go in a thousand different directions. Our purpose is to have unity. </div>
<div align="left">Q. Unity at all costs? </div>
<div align="left">A. Unity at all costs, because we believe and are sure that Jehovah God is using our organisation, the governing body of our organisation to direct it, even though mistakes are made from time to time. </div>
<div align="left">Q. And unity based upon an enforced acceptance of false prophecy? </div>
<div align="left">A. That is conceded to be true. </div>
<div align="left">Q. And the person who expressed his view, as you say, that it was wrong, and was disfellowshipped, would be in breach of the Covenant, if he was baptized? </div>
<div align="left">A. That is correct. </div>
<div align="left">Q. And as you said yesterday expressly, would be worthy of death? </div>
<div align="left">A. I think - - - </div>
<div align="left">Q. Would you say yes or no? </div>
<div align="left">A. I will answer yes, unhesitatingly. </div>
<div align="left">Q. Do you call that religion? </div>
<div align="left">A. It certainly is. </div>
<div align="left">Q. Do you call it Christianity? </div>
<div align="left">A. I certainly do. </div>
<div align="center">(Click here (http://www.godandscience.org/cults/falseadmission.html) for link to more complete transcript)</div>
Think of the implications of the Society's policy. According to Bethel's own dogma it means that Jehovah and Jesus Christ require all Christians to knowingly accept and teach lies in order to remain in the truth—all in the name of Christian unity!
End of excerpt.
My main point of contention with the current GB is that they know better, yet they hold back from admitting the truth about 1914. Instead of humbly acknowledging their error or their false expectations, they spend their time figuring out how to put a new spin on their old doctrines. A spin that won't take away their status as the faithful slave class, as taught by the WTB&TS.
They know that if they were to admit the truth, then the pedestal they put themselves on would crumble. Look what it cost Bro. King to speak up about the truth. He didn't put his self-preservation first, he put the truth first.
shikinah
04-07-2009, 03:00 PM
<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>Hi Molly you said it perfectly, that is EXACTLY what they have done and continued to do, 1975 being a beaut of mind manipulation, it really is evil. It is so unloving could only be from Satan himself.
panda :icon_redface:[/b]
If you dont know that you can improve your life now,then you only look to the future...and the bigger the mess your life is(or think it is),the more you look forward to better times,which only the new world will bring.
satan knows this and exploits it,but to say its satanic/from him, is missing the point i raise. The hysteria of 1975 is a case in point. I grew up as a kid then and remember how people longed for the end to come.
Who likes to have to go to a job you hate ? waste 45 years to earn filthy money and your potential never seen ? see your parents grow old...or die from horrible ilness. This explains the longing people have for this tortureous life to end. And when you constantly hear every week of an idealistic life,it makes life even worse in some ways.
Isnt the New World something we all want to happen...even quickly ? We all want a better life,so if this is reflected in blind hope and wishing it to hurry up,why should this surprise us ? JD.
[/b][/quote]My life is improving only by my relationship with Jehovah not the organization, and I was new in the truth in the seventies, and we were told from the platform and in talks that the society suggests it best not to have children, as the end is so close they used the scripture woe to the pregnant women, and also Jeremiah's example, we were told its best not to marry and to pioneer, pioneer, that was drummed into us at every opportunity, many did sell their homes and many opted for casual work, sister not marrying and having children, today many pay for their what you call over zealousness and being young spiritually, rubbish that is hog wash JD. Then they turned it back on the hard working faithful b/s and said they were over zealous, but that was just a cop out.
Maybe it was a time of sifting and cleaning out, I know many that have come back, and I know others that survived that horrible fiasco only to leave later.
what the society did was build people up for something that they would not have thought of themselves only that the society pushed it published it and proudly gave those b/s accoladed for selling their houses and leaving their jobs to go where the need is grater.
Today the GB and their families are looked after, they don't have to worry about paying for doctors or dentists, heavy rent and other things they would take for granted, while the b/s have no children to care for them in their old age, and many other financial problems.
And yes of course we want the end to come, why wouldn't we as you say. Beside JD you obviously have problems with the org, otherwise you wouldn't be here. Perhaps your trek through the seventies and after was happier
[/b][/quote]
I agree with Panda on this point,
I can understand individuals being over zealous, but for the anointed/governing body etc to mark specific dates which would effect individual lives is a terrible thing. How comes they missed the bible scripture which says "no one knows the time or the hour" how comes there blind when it comes to this particular one.
I came in during the 80's what a great time that was, but i never ever heard about 1975 from anyone, so it was a well kept secret, never to be uttered again.
Elizabeth
YeshiYahu
04-07-2009, 03:23 PM
<div class='quotemain'>And Jesus disciples thought that the kingdom was going to display itself instantly dispite Jesus being with them. Luke 19:11. They were keen for the Kingdom to come and in their eagernes ran ahead. Im sure also that many of the 'non disciples' were caught up in this as well because they would have given the 12's personal opinions some credibility.
So because they had these views,they obviously were not Jesus true disciples..right ?
This view was a reflection of their immaturity and early beginnings of being with Jesus.
Early quotes are a refelction of the same kind of beginning...its was early and its reflected their early ideas. Unfortuately,other people get caught up in it also. We all want the end to come. Some get a bit to keen.
Jahsdisciple[/b]
Hi JD,
I speculate that if Russell had lived long enough, he would have realized his ideas about 1914 were mistaken and that he would have come right out and said it. He died before he could make those realizations. In steps Rutherford, who spends the next decade or so re-working the doctrine around 1914, and phasing out the doctrine about 1874.
The difference between Rutherford and his predecessors and the apostles? The apostles never made believing their false expectations a matter of loyalty to an earthly organization.
Here's a little excerpt from one of Watchman's essays:
http://www.e-watchman.com/essays/micah-jeh...legal-case.html (http://www.e-watchman.com/essays/micah-jehovah-legal-case.html)
Sadly, it has been demonstrated over and over again that institutional uniformity is more important than the truth. The Watchtower has even admitted that organizational conformity has priority over truth. The following is an excerpt from a court case in 1954 during which time one of the Society's officers (Haydon Covington) was put under oath and made to answer the following questions:
<div align="left">Q. That was the publication of false prophesy? </div>
<div align="left">A. That was the publication of a false prophesy, it was a false statement or an erroneous statement in fulfillment of a prophesy that was false or erroneous. </div>
<div align="left">Q. And that had to be believed by the whole of Jehovah's Witnesses? </div>
<div align="left">A. Yes, because you must understand we must have unity, we cannot have disunity with a lot of people going every way, an army is supposed to march in step. </div>
<div align="left">Q. Back to the point now. A false prophesy was promulgated? </div>
<div align="left">A. I agree that. </div>
<div align="left">Q. It had to be accepted by Jehovah's Witnesses? </div>
<div align="left">A. That is correct. </div>
<div align="left">Q. If a member of Jehovah's Witnesses took the view himself that that prophesy was wrong and said so he would be disfellowshipped? </div>
<div align="left">A. Yes, if he said so and kept persisting in creating trouble, because if the whole organisation believes one thing, even though it be erroneous and somebody else starts on his own trying to put his ideas across then there is disunity and trouble, there cannot be harmony, there cannot be marching. When a change comes it should come from the proper source, the head of the organisation, the governing body, not from the bottom upwards, because everybody would have ideas, and the organisation would disintegrate and go in a thousand different directions. Our purpose is to have unity. </div>
<div align="left">Q. Unity at all costs? </div>
<div align="left">A. Unity at all costs, because we believe and are sure that Jehovah God is using our organisation, the governing body of our organisation to direct it, even though mistakes are made from time to time. </div>
<div align="left">Q. And unity based upon an enforced acceptance of false prophecy? </div>
<div align="left">A. That is conceded to be true. </div>
<div align="left">Q. And the person who expressed his view, as you say, that it was wrong, and was disfellowshipped, would be in breach of the Covenant, if he was baptized? </div>
<div align="left">A. That is correct. </div>
<div align="left">Q. And as you said yesterday expressly, would be worthy of death? </div>
<div align="left">A. I think - - - </div>
<div align="left">Q. Would you say yes or no? </div>
<div align="left">A. I will answer yes, unhesitatingly. </div>
<div align="left">Q. Do you call that religion? </div>
<div align="left">A. It certainly is. </div>
<div align="left">Q. Do you call it Christianity? </div>
<div align="left">A. I certainly do. </div>
<div align="center">(Click here (http://www.godandscience.org/cults/falseadmission.html) for link to more complete transcript)</div>
Think of the implications of the Society's policy. According to Bethel's own dogma it means that Jehovah and Jesus Christ require all Christians to knowingly accept and teach lies in order to remain in the truth—all in the name of Christian unity!
End of excerpt.
My main point of contention with the current GB is that they know better, yet they hold back from admitting the truth about 1914. Instead of humbly acknowledging their error or their false expectations, they spend their time figuring out how to put a new spin on their old doctrines. A spin that won't take away their status as the faithful slave class, as taught by the WTB&TS.
They know that if they were to admit the truth, then the pedestal they put themselves on would crumble. Look what it cost Bro. King to speak up about the truth. He didn't put his self-preservation first, he put the truth first.
[/b][/quote]
So much for John 4:24, I guess there Master is delaying.
Molly
04-07-2009, 03:43 PM
I agree with Panda on this point,
I can understand individuals being over zealous, but for the anointed/governing body etc to mark specific dates which would effect individual lives is a terrible thing. How comes they missed the bible scripture which says "no one knows the time or the hour" how comes there blind when it comes to this particular one.
I came in during the 80's what a great time that was, but i never ever heard about 1975 from anyone, so it was a well kept secret, never to be uttered again.
Elizabeth[/b]
Hi Elizabeth-
I studied and got baptised in 1975, so I remember all the excitement about the end very well. Although it was no longer talked about by the mid '80s, it is recorded in the numbers in the yearbooks that followed.
In 1975 there was a peak publishers worldwide of 2,179,256 with 295,073 baptised for a 9.7% increase.
In 1976, there was only 196,656 baptised, resulting in 2,248,390 peak publishers for an increase of 3.7%.
For 1977, there was only 124,459 baptised (less than half of 1975) and 2,223,538 peak publishers for a -1.0%.
It definitely had an effect on the number of publishers and the number that were getting baptised.
Molly
shikinah
04-07-2009, 08:31 PM
<div class='quotemain'>I agree with Panda on this point,
I can understand individuals being over zealous, but for the anointed/governing body etc to mark specific dates which would effect individual lives is a terrible thing. How comes they missed the bible scripture which says "no one knows the time or the hour" how comes there blind when it comes to this particular one.
I came in during the 80's what a great time that was, but i never ever heard about 1975 from anyone, so it was a well kept secret, never to be uttered again.
Elizabeth[/b]
Hi Elizabeth-
I studied and got baptised in 1975, so I remember all the excitement about the end very well. Although it was no longer talked about by the mid '80s, it is recorded in the numbers in the yearbooks that followed.
In 1975 there was a peak publishers worldwide of 2,179,256 with 295,073 baptised for a 9.7% increase.
In 1976, there was only 196,656 baptised, resulting in 2,248,390 peak publishers for an increase of 3.7%.
For 1977, there was only 124,459 baptised (less than half of 1975) and 2,223,538 peak publishers for a -1.0%.
It definitely had an effect on the number of publishers and the number that were getting baptised.
Molly
[/b][/quote]
Thank you Molly,
you did great in finding those figures, this is what i quoted in a post yesterday, are these dates to do with mass recruiting? because it actually works. Then dies down when the prophesy fails. Im sorry to say this but there is no way that the holy spirit is behind such error. Despite the accuracies in other things, not even christendom attempts a go at this one.
Elizabeth
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