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Jeshurun

01-05-2007, 01:05 PM

Good morning!

I've always had this burning question since childhood that the Watchtower has never been able to answer. What happened to the dinosaurs? They have been extinct for hundreds of millions of years, so, dear Bethaven, please don't insult my intelligence by saying that they were wiped out in the flood because they couldn't go into the ark. (Yes I agree that a pair of T-Rex's would not have made for smooth sailing.)

Genesis 1:1 states that the earth was "created". That was 17 billion years ago. The reaction in heaven to that event was "all" the sons of God shouted for joy. (Job 38:4,5,7) Genesis 1:2 states it was "formless and void". Science has proven that some type of cataclysmic event, such as an asteroid impact, created a choking cloud that took out the vegetation, and everything living on dry ground died.

Now regarding verse 2, check out what I found at the website of "The Restored Church of God":

This verse is mistranslated and does not reflect the meaning of the original Hebrew. The King James Version of the Bible says, "And the earth was without form, and void." Three key Hebrew words are all mistranslated here, thus obscuring, and actually hiding, the verse's true meaning.

The word translated "was" is hayah. In Genesis 2:7 (http://java%20script:void(0)), this word is correctly translated "became," and in Genesis 9:15 (http://java%20script:void(0)), "become."

The words for "without form, and void" are tohu and bohu. Correctly translated, they mean "chaotic, in confusion, waste and empty." In short, a perfectly created earth (vs. 1 (http://java%20script:void(0))), "became chaotic and confused" (vs. 2 (http://java%20script:void(0))). Tohu and bohu are translated identically in Jeremiah 4:23 (http://java%20script:void(0)). Isaiah 34:11 (http://java%20script:void(0)), among other places, translates this phrase as "confusion and emptiness."

Notice Isaiah 45:18 (http://java%20script:void(0)), which clarifies how God did not create the earth: "For thus says the Lord that created the heavens; God Himself that formed the earth and made it; He has established it, He created it not in vain [tohu meaning chaotic or waste], He formed it to be inhabited." It is clear that the earth became chaotic after God had created it—between the events described in Genesis 1:1 (http://java%20script:void(0)) and 1:2 (http://java%20script:void(0)). The latter verse describes the RE-creation of the earth 6,000 years ago, and verse 1 (http://java%20script:void(0)) describes the original creation of the entire universe that, according to scientists, occurred as many as 17 billion years ago.

Psalm 104:30 (http://java%20script:void(0)) says that God "renews the face of the earth." The seven days of the creation week are when God renewed a damaged, injured earth, then completely covered with water (Gen. 1:2 (http://java%20script:void(0))). We will see that this was caused by the devil.

This would make a lot of sense to me, but because this website by no means has the complete truth, such as the importance of God's name or the existence of the literal 144,000, I cannot take this as unflawed on my own, so I am bouncing it off the DB to see what you think of it.

This would all mean that the conflict between Jehovah and Satan goes much farther back and deeper than I previously understood, and that Adam in actuality was Jehovah's first attempt to supplant Lucifer as the ruler of this world. I don't know if it was Jehovah's plan to have Adam take that role, as the website suggests, because that makes no sense. Obviously there would have been a substitute archangel. In any event, it goes on:

Ezekiel 28:12-17 (http://java%20script:void(0)) parallels and reinforces Isaiah 14 (http://java%20script:void(0)), and is equally important for study. This account describes one who some "scholars" claim was a human "king of Tyrus." Careful reading shows this is impossible—and ridiculous.

This verse speaks of one who "seals up the sum, full of wisdom, perfect in beauty," who had also "been in Eden the garden of God." No human has ever been perfect, and it was the devil—the serpent—who beguiled Eve in the Garden. Verse 13 (http://java%20script:void(0)) states, "you were created," and Satan is a created being. Verse 14 (http://java%20script:void(0)) calls him "the cherub that covers." (Exodus 25:17-20 (http://java%20script:void(0)) describes the remaining two faithful "cherubs that cover[ed]" God's throne in the Old Testament tabernacle. Their wings cover the "mercy seat.") No earthly king fits this description.

The latter part of Ezekiel 28:14 (http://java%20script:void(0)) says that this "king" was "in the mountain of God" and "walked…in the midst of the stones of fire." This describes the area around God's throne. Verse 15 (http://java%20script:void(0)) declares, "iniquity [lawlessness] was found in you" and verse 16 (http://java%20script:void(0)) refers to it as "sin."

Verse 16 (http://java%20script:void(0)) also describes this cherub as having been "cast…out of" heaven. God also said He would "destroy" (Hebrew: expel) Lucifer from heaven. Verse 17 (http://java%20script:void(0)) reveals that his "heart was lifted up because of [his] beauty" and that his wisdom was "corrupted…by reason of [his] brightness." The verse ends with God "casting him down to the ground," where the kings of the earth would him."

Lucifer was a brilliant being—an "angel of light," as are "his ministers" (II Cor. 11:13-15 (http://java%20script:void(0))). The word Lucifer means "the light bringer." This once perfect being originally brought brilliant light to all that were around him. But he rebelled and sinned—thus becoming the "prince of darkness." His rebellion turned him into a twisted, perverted being. While of great intelligence, he has literally become an insane fallen angel, no longer knowing right from wrong!

The big issue in the world today is that people don't believe that God exists, or if he does, that he doesn't care what's happening to the world. All of us know what the issues are, and why this is all happening. Personally, I find this explanation to be even more gratifying because it would explain to me why Jehovah put Adam and Eve into such a vulnerable position knowing what might be the outcome if they disobeyed. What this means is that Satan was already debased and needed to be removed from power, but Jehovah needed a perfect human being to pass the test in order to accomplish that. Adam's failure prompted Jehovah to provide his only begotten Son, Jesus, as that perfect ransom sacrifice.

What do you all think? Is this flawed somewhere?

Love,
Lou

Terra Nova

01-05-2007, 01:35 PM

Hi Jesuhrun: I don't think this question has an answer that can satisfy all of us; some things are not meant to be known at this moment. I also do not agree that the dynosours went extinct 5000 years ago. From what I've read it is believed that the earth is 13 billion years ald. Who knows. I think that the things you're saying go beyond what's written. Hopefully one day God will shed light on this important matter.

Kenneth

01-05-2007, 01:56 PM

"God proceeded to create the great sea monsters"

Strong's translates the word monster as 'Tan-neen,, Tan-neem' meaning marine or land monster, dragon or sea-monster.

The problem is with science is there not much in the way of truth as much of it is falsification, conjecture and speculation, and the further back it goes the more murkier the window becomes as assumption develop into self-styled truth as is the case with evolution.

Kenneth

barry

01-05-2007, 02:55 PM

As far as I know, the dating techniques used are based on the idea the atmosphere and other factors stayed the same during all periods. Who knows this was the case before the flood.
Example the carbon 14 method, it is said the ratio between Carbon 12 and Carbon 14 in the air is always the same. When a creature dies, it stops breathing and they can use the remaining part of carbon 14 (radioactive and decays) in its ratio to carbon 12 (not radioactive so does not decay).
We don't know if the ratio between Carbon14/Carbon12 has always been the same, so what about the dates which are based on that?

juffowup

01-05-2007, 04:50 PM

I guess I'm not sure what the problem is. Whether the earth is 17 billion years old, the dinosaurs died out 67 million years ago, I don't see how they are a problem, at all, and if they were, I'd be more inclined to chalk it up to something that we might grow to understand more in the new system with the time to properly research things and who knows? Perhaps Jehovah will reveal some of these things to us in his time.

I tend to believe whatever the scientists say unless the Bible says otherwise in a clear and unequivocal manner. And even then, one must be open to the possibility that one's understanding or interpretation of the scripture is flawed. Did you know that the Bible's talk of the Earth having "four corners" was one of the many reasons the Catholics persecuted people who taught that the earth was round? But that was just a pagan notion that was co-opted and a few Bible passages twisted to support it.

Just MHO.

Shibboleth

01-05-2007, 04:56 PM

The dinosaurs were wiped out by a huge meteor that fell on the earth. There has been lots of research done on this. In geological studies there is a thin line of meteorlike dust/ash that is between the periods of dinosaurs and when mammals first appeared. This shows up in most areas. I saw a special on this on the History channel.

Also the earth is filled with craters, but we can't see them because of weathering and other elements.

Humans and dinosaurs could not of co-existed and if they did the humans would not have survived long. Jehovah had a reason for destroying the dinosaurs and that is something we have to look foraward to learning in the new system.

The earth was not made in 1,000 year cycles. We have to look at the "days" as periods of time. As humans we only have a physical viewpoint of time and space, but Jehovah and the angels most likely view it in a totally different perspective.

When it comes to science and religion, people seem to not be able to put the two together, but in reality you cannot have one without the other.

Now, the larger mammals such as wooly mamoths and sabretooth tigers most likely lived pre-flood and were destroyed by it.

Dinos, on the other hand died out long long ago.

History channel always has specials on this and you can also rent the episodes from Netflix. I would check them out.

Regards,

Shibboleth

Kenneth

01-05-2007, 05:44 PM

Let's keep one thing in mind as far as science goes, 4000 years ago there was a global flood. Beyond 4000 years science is mere conjecture. Scientists work within paradigms and the flood don't fit the paradigm, so they create their own theories to suit their own ends. Science for many is a religion and like so many other religions are full holes and false teachings.

A quadratic mathematical equation has about ten steps to it, one mistake along the way and the answers wrong. Scientist have some of it right but because the flood don't fit into their equation they never get the correct answer, in fact much of what they say is utter dribble.

Kenneth
-------------------------------------------

"THERE is danger in the intense emphasis upon science today, . . . to deny that there is any validity beyond the findings of science is absurd."

Shibboleth

01-05-2007, 06:41 PM

This doesn't have much to do with dinosaurs, but it has alot to do with science - if you want to read a good book on one scientists journey in finding answers you should read "The Language of God" it is about Francis S Collins search. He was the lead scientist on the Human Genome Project. It is a great read and very well written. He equivilates our DNA structure as the actual handwriting of God. how it is written in God's language. And that anyone who doubts just needs to look at how spectacular the DNA is and how it is formed.

Regards,

Shibboleth

Martha

01-05-2007, 08:17 PM

Hi everyone,

On the subject of dinos and monsters, I couldn't help chuckling when I read a news item on Ananova today "Tourists Ask Strange Questions", which listed actual requests of tourists when they visited tourist information centres here in Britain.


Other questions posed to VisitScotland staff included: "Can you tell me where the mountain is in Scotland?", and "Are there any Sheena Easton museums in Glasgow?".

Best of all, one tourist asked:
"What time of night does the Loch Ness Monster surface and who feeds it?"

Source: Ananova 09:07 Wednesday 3rd January 2007[/b]

 :lol:

Nambo

01-06-2007, 01:18 AM

Humans and dinosaurs could not of co-existed and if they did the humans would not have survived long. Jehovah had a reason for destroying the dinosaurs and that is something we have to look foraward to learning in the new system.

Regards,

Shibboleth[/b]

Reading Josephus at the moment, interestingly, when Cain is sent out into the wilderness as a wanderer after killing Abel and the Bible says Cain was worried that "whoever finds me will kill me", and your thinking, "who are all these people living in the wilderness that Cain is worried about?, where did they come from?, well, Josephus who claims to write directly from the sacred scrolls pasted down says Cain was worried that the "Wild beasts" might kill him, rather than men.

This might also put into question the societies teaching that all animals prior to the flood where vegetarians and that the Sabre tooth Tiger had those fangs for digging roots.

Jeshurun

01-06-2007, 03:17 PM

Shibboleth

01-06-2007, 03:44 PM

Regardless of what may have happened before Adam, the issues of Sovereignty are unchanged. I personally have never just assumed that everything was hunky dory before Adam. It's a thought for me that Noah's flood was not the first, and it would make sense to me if whatever happened before was also caused by Satan.

The spirits are like us in the sense that they do think and have opinions. A differing opinion about some thing may not necessarily violate Jehovah's law. Also there are issues that we don't comprehend. I don't believe that Satan was condemned to eternal destruction until that moment in the Garden of Eden. However, I think he started trouble before that, and I do believe that he was given jurisdiction over this area of the universe as he was an archangel. I think its possible that Jehovah created Adam in response to whatever Satan might have done, as a means of supplanting his authority, although I do believe that Jehovah would have created man in his image either way.

But either way it should not effect one's faith. I find the idea of a long brewing confrontation rather intriguing.

Lou[/b]

I find your post quite interesting. Jehovah created all beings (spirit and human) with free will. It would make sense that spirit and humans would have opinions. We can see this in how Jehovah was pleased on certain occasions when His actions were called into question. When Abraham was discussing with Jehovah about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. He whittled it down from 50 to 10 righteous men that if 10 were found Jehovah would not destroy the cities and the districts.

It would also make sense that Jehovah used the angels to create. Since all glory goes back to Jehovah he is the recipient of the praise for creating the whole universe. Jehovah didn't just create things by Himself, He used His angels also. Sort of like a Project Manager. He doesn't draw up the drawings and order the project, but he oversees the project from start to finish and uses people to draw and order. I view Jehovah as the Project Manager and he uses the tools (which he created) to create more.

I look at humans today (though we are imperfect) we create here on earth. Jehovah might not have built our house personally, but the materials we use were created by Him so thus he did create it and we should praise and thank Him for that. When a building gets old or dilapidated what do we do to it? We raze it and build a new house. Similar to the dinosaurs. It was a creation that, even though it may have been enjoyable to watch, outlived it's time and in order to bring about Jehovah's ultimate creation, humans, the dinos had to be destroyed. It would be a different scenario if the dinos could interact and had free will and were able to talk and erally enjoy life, but they were animals/beasts.

I don't think Jehovah views a differing of opinion as a sinful thing. I think He views it as a blessing. If all of us had no differing of opinion we would be like robots. Differing of opinion is free will.

I do think Satan, before he was known as such, had a differing opinion. He was probably very vocal. It shows when he boldly confronted Jehovah about Job. That right there shows to me that Satan must have had a very close relationship with God and was most likely real high up in the chain of command. Probably equal to Jesus or close to that. Maybe the angel known as Satan had a close hand in helping God create us. It would make sense as to how he would know so much about our makeup and what makes us tick.

Anyways we can speculate as much as we want. Maybe in the new system Jehovah will let us know the full story. Maybe not.

Regards,

Shibboleth

Kenneth

01-06-2007, 04:03 PM

Hi Jeshurun

This would all mean that the conflict between Jehovah and Satan goes much farther back and deeper than I previously understood,[/b]

"In E′den, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; chrys′o·lite, onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created they were made ready. 14 You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. 15 You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you."

According to the society "The rebellious spirit son of God, similar to the traitorous "king of Tyre," thought too highly of himself. Pride caused him to want to control the human race, and he sought to gain his ends through deception."

So looking at Ezekiel 28:13 the wider application is referring to 'Satan' the Devil a 'Slander' and resister, thus the conflict between the two appears to be during the time of Eden.

Kenneth

Jeshurun

01-06-2007, 07:57 PM

That would appear to be a "slam dunk".

So much for my silly imagination.

Some people just can't handle power and authority, angels included.

Lou