Marque100
05-12-2009, 11:21 PM
I have nearly finished reading the book "Pay attention to Daniel's prophecy!" an interesting book (obviously) and a useful history lesson. That said, I do have a problem with at least one part of the book, which deals with the subject of the "King of fierce countenance" Page 170 & Page 173.
Page 170/14 gives us the scripture from Daniel 8:23-25. I have no issue with that or any other scripture, in fact it does not seem particularly difficult to understand, it's all plain English after all, although on Page 173/18, the book appears to suggest that the "King" is the "Anglo-American World Power". It's that part I do not agree with. While I do not know the identity of the "King of fierce countenance", the scripture and those I've linked to it, are clearly describing a powerful human king, just as the Bible does for all other kings. "Fierce countenance" is even a literal description of his facial expression.
Daniel 8:23-25 (NWT)
"And in the final part of their kingdom, as the transgressors act to a completion, there will stand up a king fierce in countenance and understanding ambiguous sayings. And his power must become mighty, but not by his own power. And in a wonderful way he will cause ruin, and he will certainly prove successful and do effectively. And he will actually bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of the holy ones. And according to his insight he will also certainly cause deception to succeed in his hand. And in his heart he will put on great airs, and during a freedom from care he will bring many to ruin. And against the Prince of princes he will stand up, but it will be without hand that he will be broken."
The KJV of this scripture is very similar, but has a few interesting translation differences:
Daniel 8:23-25 (KJV)
"And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power, and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand, and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many; he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes, but he shall be broken without hand."
That scripture links to the following two scriptures:
...and shall destroy ....... the holy people. Revelation 13:7
"And there was granted him/it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and authority was given him/it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation." (KJV/NWT)
...Magnify himself in his heart. Daniel 11:36-37
"And the king will actually do according to his own will, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak marvellous things. And he will certainly prove successful until the denunciation will have come to a finish; because the thing decided upon must be done. And to the God of his fathers he will give no consideration; and to the desire of women and to every other god he will give no consideration, but over everyone he will magnify himself"
That scripture links to the following two scriptures:
...Magnify himself above every god. Thessalonians 2:4
"He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called "god" or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god"
...Against the God of gods he will speak marvellous things. Revelation 13:6
"And he/it opened his/its mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his residence, even those residing in heaven" - (KJV/NWT)
Most, if not all past empires/kingdoms, have had a powerful king as ruler, such as Nebuchadnezzar (Babylonia), Cyrus (Medo-Persia), Alexander (Greece) and Caesar (Rome). Why should that be any different for the final empire/kingdom of mankind's rulership?
The last human king, as far as I can tell from scripture, is going to be the most powerful of all human kings, as he appears to rule the whole world (authority was given him over every tribe and people and tongue and nation), thinks he is god (...publicly showing himself to be a god) and even attempts to take on the "Prince of princes" (... against the Prince of princes he will stand up, but it will be without hand that he will be broken).
Throughout history, a king is always "OF" the empire, never "THE" empire. Page 213/8 of the book, we get part of a scripture - "A mighty king will certainly stand up...." which is similar to Page 170/14 "There will stand up a king fierce in countenance...". Page 213/8 is talking about a human king - Alexander the Great, while Page 173/18 is talking about the "Anglo-American World Power".
With the benefit of hindsight, we can identify most kings of the Bible and the kingdoms that they were rulers of. As we don't yet know who this "King fierce in countenance" is, that king and his kingdom would appear to be future events. I can't think of anywhere in the Bible where there is a scripture describing a "King" who is an empire, but only the ruler of an empire.
Some other Bible translations regarding this king.
Daniel 8:23 - New American Standard Bible (http://nasb.scripturetext.com/daniel/8.htm) (©1995) (http://www.lockman.org/)
"In the latter period of their rule, When the transgressors have run their course, A king will arise, Insolent and skilled in intrigue."
Daniel 8:23 - GOD'S WORD® Translation (http://gwt.scripturetext.com/daniel/8.htm) (©1995) (http://www.godsword.org/)
"In the last days of those kingdoms, when rebellions are finished, a stern-looking king who understands mysterious things will rise to power."
Daniel 8:23 - Bible in Basic English (http://basicenglishbible.com/daniel/8.htm)
"And in the later years of their kingdom, when their evil doings have become complete, there will come up a king full of pride and expert in dark sayings."
Daniel 8:23 - Douay-Rheims Bible (http://drb.scripturetext.com/daniel/8.htm)
"And after their reign, when iniquities shall be grown up, there shall arise a king of a shameless face, and understanding dark sentences."
Daniel 8:23 - Darby Bible Translation (http://darbybible.com/daniel/8.htm)
"And at the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors shall have come to the full, a king of bold countenance, and understanding riddles, shall stand up"
Daniel 8:23 - World English Bible (http://worldebible.com/daniel/8.htm)
"In the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce face, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up."
Daniel 8:23 - Young's Literal Translation (http://yltbible.com/daniel/8.htm)
"And in the latter end of their kingdom, about the perfecting of the transgressors, stand up doth a king, fierce of face, and understanding hidden things."
Page 170/14 gives us the scripture from Daniel 8:23-25. I have no issue with that or any other scripture, in fact it does not seem particularly difficult to understand, it's all plain English after all, although on Page 173/18, the book appears to suggest that the "King" is the "Anglo-American World Power". It's that part I do not agree with. While I do not know the identity of the "King of fierce countenance", the scripture and those I've linked to it, are clearly describing a powerful human king, just as the Bible does for all other kings. "Fierce countenance" is even a literal description of his facial expression.
Daniel 8:23-25 (NWT)
"And in the final part of their kingdom, as the transgressors act to a completion, there will stand up a king fierce in countenance and understanding ambiguous sayings. And his power must become mighty, but not by his own power. And in a wonderful way he will cause ruin, and he will certainly prove successful and do effectively. And he will actually bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of the holy ones. And according to his insight he will also certainly cause deception to succeed in his hand. And in his heart he will put on great airs, and during a freedom from care he will bring many to ruin. And against the Prince of princes he will stand up, but it will be without hand that he will be broken."
The KJV of this scripture is very similar, but has a few interesting translation differences:
Daniel 8:23-25 (KJV)
"And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power, and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand, and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many; he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes, but he shall be broken without hand."
That scripture links to the following two scriptures:
...and shall destroy ....... the holy people. Revelation 13:7
"And there was granted him/it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and authority was given him/it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation." (KJV/NWT)
...Magnify himself in his heart. Daniel 11:36-37
"And the king will actually do according to his own will, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak marvellous things. And he will certainly prove successful until the denunciation will have come to a finish; because the thing decided upon must be done. And to the God of his fathers he will give no consideration; and to the desire of women and to every other god he will give no consideration, but over everyone he will magnify himself"
That scripture links to the following two scriptures:
...Magnify himself above every god. Thessalonians 2:4
"He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called "god" or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god"
...Against the God of gods he will speak marvellous things. Revelation 13:6
"And he/it opened his/its mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his residence, even those residing in heaven" - (KJV/NWT)
Most, if not all past empires/kingdoms, have had a powerful king as ruler, such as Nebuchadnezzar (Babylonia), Cyrus (Medo-Persia), Alexander (Greece) and Caesar (Rome). Why should that be any different for the final empire/kingdom of mankind's rulership?
The last human king, as far as I can tell from scripture, is going to be the most powerful of all human kings, as he appears to rule the whole world (authority was given him over every tribe and people and tongue and nation), thinks he is god (...publicly showing himself to be a god) and even attempts to take on the "Prince of princes" (... against the Prince of princes he will stand up, but it will be without hand that he will be broken).
Throughout history, a king is always "OF" the empire, never "THE" empire. Page 213/8 of the book, we get part of a scripture - "A mighty king will certainly stand up...." which is similar to Page 170/14 "There will stand up a king fierce in countenance...". Page 213/8 is talking about a human king - Alexander the Great, while Page 173/18 is talking about the "Anglo-American World Power".
With the benefit of hindsight, we can identify most kings of the Bible and the kingdoms that they were rulers of. As we don't yet know who this "King fierce in countenance" is, that king and his kingdom would appear to be future events. I can't think of anywhere in the Bible where there is a scripture describing a "King" who is an empire, but only the ruler of an empire.
Some other Bible translations regarding this king.
Daniel 8:23 - New American Standard Bible (http://nasb.scripturetext.com/daniel/8.htm) (©1995) (http://www.lockman.org/)
"In the latter period of their rule, When the transgressors have run their course, A king will arise, Insolent and skilled in intrigue."
Daniel 8:23 - GOD'S WORD® Translation (http://gwt.scripturetext.com/daniel/8.htm) (©1995) (http://www.godsword.org/)
"In the last days of those kingdoms, when rebellions are finished, a stern-looking king who understands mysterious things will rise to power."
Daniel 8:23 - Bible in Basic English (http://basicenglishbible.com/daniel/8.htm)
"And in the later years of their kingdom, when their evil doings have become complete, there will come up a king full of pride and expert in dark sayings."
Daniel 8:23 - Douay-Rheims Bible (http://drb.scripturetext.com/daniel/8.htm)
"And after their reign, when iniquities shall be grown up, there shall arise a king of a shameless face, and understanding dark sentences."
Daniel 8:23 - Darby Bible Translation (http://darbybible.com/daniel/8.htm)
"And at the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors shall have come to the full, a king of bold countenance, and understanding riddles, shall stand up"
Daniel 8:23 - World English Bible (http://worldebible.com/daniel/8.htm)
"In the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce face, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up."
Daniel 8:23 - Young's Literal Translation (http://yltbible.com/daniel/8.htm)
"And in the latter end of their kingdom, about the perfecting of the transgressors, stand up doth a king, fierce of face, and understanding hidden things."