Are We Bloodguilty?

[Earthbound]

Given the overall stand of this site that we are to remain in our congregation as far as it is possible, and that it is not the obligation of every person to speak out against the patently obvious wrongs being committed within the organization and congregations because if we do speak out, we will most likely get disfellowshiped and subsequently cut off from friends and family, how does this affect your ministry out in the field?

For me, personally, it came to a point where I could not in good conscience recommend that a new Bible student become a part of the congregation, knowing as I did that they would be expected to go out and publicize the Society's errant views, that their Christianity would be determined by how closely they toe the line (field service, meeting attendance, participation in meetings, for example). Knowing full well that a person new in the faith and thus naively childlike where the Truth is concerned might become disheartened once they started experiencing these organizational factors and lose what spark of faith they may have had, was a sobering reality that I had to come to terms with.

And what about the bottom line that unless a person vocally confesses their acceptance for such doctrines as 1914, they will not be allowed to undergo baptism? I know some people resort to deception and tweaking of their words in order to satisfy the interviewing elders during this phase of one's being brought into the organization, but it just smacks of dishonesty. How does Jehovah view one's using deceptive and clever wordplay in order to enter into a public demonstration of one's faith towards God? If a husband misrepresented himself as a person of certain values, opinions, and beliefs in order to get married to a potential wife, and then afterwards manifested his real values, opinions, and beliefs, how does Jehovah view that husband? And how much more seriously does Jehovah look upon it when it's a matter of a person adjoining themselves to Jehovah's own organization by deceptive means?

Having said that, to what extent are we personally accountable and bloodguilty before Jehovah if we direct a person to the congregation on the premise that they need to just because it's "Jehovah's organization", knowing full well what will be expected from that person as they grow in the congregation, even to the extent of accepting the 1914 doctrine, which we know to be a falsehood? To what extent are we accountable and bloodguilty, should that person discover the repercussions for rejecting 1914 and thereafter loses faith towards Jehovah because they are cut off from the congregation? And what about after that, when they go into a state worse than before we introduced them to the Truth, because they have been disfellowshipped? Perhaps they brought their family into the Truth with them, even; now, they are cut off from the very loved ones they themselves brought in with them. Are we not bloodguilty? Are we not sharers in the shedding of blood? Can we really say that we did our part, that what they do after they join the organization, is on them? ("Am I my brother's keeper?" asked Cain.)

I'd like to hear some reflection on this.

-=:Earthbound:=-

[shira]

Given the overall stand of this site that we are to remain in our congregation as far as it is possible, and that it is not the obligation of every person to speak out against the patently obvious wrongs being committed within the organization and congregations because if we do speak out, we will most likely get disfellowshiped and subsequently cut off from friends and family, how does this affect your ministry out in the field?

For me, personally, it came to a point where I could not in good conscience recommend that a new Bible student become a part of the congregation, knowing as I did that they would be expected to go out and publicize the Society's errant views, that their Christianity would be determined by how closely they toe the line (field service, meeting attendance, participation in meetings, for example). Knowing full well that a person new in the faith and thus naively childlike where the Truth is concerned might become disheartened once they started experiencing these organizational factors and lose what spark of faith they may have had, was a sobering reality that I had to come to terms with.

And what about the bottom line that unless a person vocally confesses their acceptance for such doctrines as 1914, they will not be allowed to undergo baptism? I know some people resort to deception and tweaking of their words in order to satisfy the interviewing elders during this phase of one's being brought into the organization, but it just smacks of dishonesty. How does Jehovah view one's using deceptive and clever wordplay in order to enter into a public demonstration of one's faith towards God? If a husband misrepresented himself as a person of certain values, opinions, and beliefs in order to get married to a potential wife, and then afterwards manifested his real values, opinions, and beliefs, how does Jehovah view that husband? And how much more seriously does Jehovah look upon it when it's a matter of a person adjoining themselves to Jehovah's own organization by deceptive means?

Having said that, to what extent are we personally accountable and bloodguilty before Jehovah if we direct a person to the congregation on the premise that they need to just because it's "Jehovah's organization", knowing full well what will be expected from that person as they grow in the congregation, even to the extent of accepting the 1914 doctrine, which we know to be a falsehood? To what extent are we accountable and bloodguilty, should that person discover the repercussions for rejecting 1914 and thereafter loses faith towards Jehovah because they are cut off from the congregation? And what about after that, when they go into a state worse than before we introduced them to the Truth, because they have been disfellowshipped? Perhaps they brought their family into the Truth with them, even; now, they are cut off from the very loved ones they themselves brought in with them. Are we not bloodguilty? Are we not sharers in the shedding of blood? Can we really say that we did our part, that what they do after they join the organization, is on them? ("Am I my brother's keeper?" asked Cain.)

I'd like to hear some reflection on this.

-=:Earthbound:=-[/b]

I have no intelligent reflection on this, but I agree with it strongly. At the same time, in my mind the conflict does arise when we see those who in fact do stumble and are left worse off through leaving the organization - even when it's done with the type of proper awareness and good motivation you write of above. They seem to for some reason simply need the structure and support they receive through their meetings and social connections in the organization. (I am not talking about those who stay associated for the single reason that they wish to be a help and future help for others when the time comes.)

We have different levels of spiritual strength, I believe. Jehovah has been quite hard or strict in what I perceive he directs me, for example, and perhaps you as well, but this is not the case for every person. Some know more of a soft and gentle way Jehovah has with them. I would not say there is guilt for simply remaining, but for knowingly recruiting people into the organization, with its many, many serious errors and false teachings? And just somehow hoping for the best with it for them? That seems dangerously careless at best.

But as is always said, where else would one go? What other groups for association are there that have even the correct truths that the Watchtower has managed to maintain and transmit? If things draw on much longer (before the great events of the end of this system) I can't help thinking that there is going to need to be more of a movement, of those of us who know truth (as differentiated from the particular erroneous WT specifics currently), for the sake of love and compassion for others and for the sake of justice to what is Jehovah's. I don't think of a movement like the formation of a new sect, following that kind of pattern, but just continuing greater speaking out and association with one another than has so far been with a book or a website here or there. We do carry great responsibility, and it is incredibly important that each person serve in accord with what has been entrusted to us. It is important and significant, for some, as Jehovah directs, to speak out the truths they know, and it is equally important and significant that others hear these things, and make their decisions to accept or reject, or to see how the seed of it will grow in them. It is the type of "prophecy" that is commissioned to us as followers after Jesus.

In the ministry, there is the basic truth we can present from the Bible. With people more familiar with JW's, we can honestly explain where and why we part ways with the incorrect or outdated teachings the WT still holds. JEHOVAH who is truth does not require as some crutch the business of the WTBS company, or the number of WT baptisms, or any of those trappings of the organization that many rely on in ministry. My most fruitful discussions with people have been with no booklets or even Bible nearby, just holy spirit in the message and the new life this transmits, in words and more than words, to the other person. Scripture living in one's heart finds its way to the hearts of others, but it is not always such a formal, organized process as doing set hours of door knocking. Thank God, it is effortless, and in my experience far more fruitful. (This is not to disparage that type of field ministry since I know it has brought blessings to many.)

But in the state of the world, does it not make sense that many of us are not going to have a simple place of worship or well-established religious society that has obediently kept to Jehovah's truth? It happened repeatedly throughout ancient Israel, it was a struggle from the early church, it happened in Christendom, and it has happened with the Watchtower. Can we believe sincerely that Jehovah is sufficient, not only for us perhaps more experienced ones but for those new ones we continue to reach out to with truth? What can we see Jehovah do, when we have the faith?

Love,
Shira

[shira]

Last thought on the ministry...what I have seen, and from others, when you free yourself from the WT ways, where you can only say certain things to ones who might be new and fragile, where you have to protect the wickedness that is in the organization and you don't dare say certain things because you might stumble someone off the bible or stumble them off the way of coming into the organization, when you are free from this and are presenting what is simple and OPEN truth, there is so much more fruit in reaching people's hearts, having sincere and beneficial discussions of scripture and truth.

I know it is not for everyone, I know people here have chosen many different ways of doing what they see as best before Jehovah, but I just want to say my piece of encouragement and support for those who would choose to leave association with the WT and who might worry about how exactly they will continue on in service and personal growth. Jehovah is not the organization; he is far, far greater than the organization. In cases where the WTBTS has started to be as an actual impediment to reaching people whom Jehovah would love to have close, or where it actually serves to push people away from Jehovah and his will, we need to see clearly right there that it is another spirit at work, it is NOT Jehovah our God. But we can detach ourselves from this defiled and dying thing and step again into Jehovah's ways for us, and we can see the great things he will do with us and with those he uses us to reach.
Love,
Shira

[Eyes & Ears]

[/b]Last thought on the ministry...what I have seen, and from others, when you free yourself from the WT ways, where you can only say certain things to ones who might be new and fragile, where you have to protect the wickedness that is in the organization and you don't dare say certain things because you might stumble someone off the bible or stumble them off the way of coming into the organization, when you are free from this and are presenting what is simple and OPEN truth, there is so much more fruit in reaching people's hearts, having sincere and beneficial discussions of scripture and truth.




[/b]In cases where the WTBTS has started to be as an actual impediment to reaching people whom Jehovah would love to have close, or where it actually serves to push people away from Jehovah and his will, we need to see clearly right there that it is another spirit at work, it is NOT Jehovah our God. But we can detach ourselves from this defiled and dying thing and step again into Jehovah's ways for us, and we can see the great things he will do with us and with those he uses us to reach
[/b]


************************************************** *****************

Beautiful, heartfelt, wise and honest expessions Shira. Thank you I needed that, and Jehovah knew I needed to hear those words at this particular time. I will say over and over, we never know how what we say will help someone here.

I'm still working on it. Still working on this area. It is so hard to let go of certain things so very very hard.

Sisterly Love,


E & E

[FutureMan]

Given the overall stand of this site that we are to remain in our congregation as far as it is possible, and that it is not the obligation of every person to speak out against the patently obvious wrongs being committed within the organization and congregations because if we do speak out, we will most likely get disfellowshiped and subsequently cut off from friends and family, how does this affect your ministry out in the field?

For me, personally, it came to a point where I could not in good conscience recommend that a new Bible student become a part of the congregation, knowing as I did that they would be expected to go out and publicize the Society's errant views, that their Christianity would be determined by how closely they toe the line (field service, meeting attendance, participation in meetings, for example). Knowing full well that a person new in the faith and thus naively childlike where the Truth is concerned might become disheartened once they started experiencing these organizational factors and lose what spark of faith they may have had, was a sobering reality that I had to come to terms with.

And what about the bottom line that unless a person vocally confesses their acceptance for such doctrines as 1914, they will not be allowed to undergo baptism? I know some people resort to deception and tweaking of their words in order to satisfy the interviewing elders during this phase of one's being brought into the organization, but it just smacks of dishonesty. How does Jehovah view one's using deceptive and clever wordplay in order to enter into a public demonstration of one's faith towards God? If a husband misrepresented himself as a person of certain values, opinions, and beliefs in order to get married to a potential wife, and then afterwards manifested his real values, opinions, and beliefs, how does Jehovah view that husband? And how much more seriously does Jehovah look upon it when it's a matter of a person adjoining themselves to Jehovah's own organization by deceptive means?

Having said that, to what extent are we personally accountable and bloodguilty before Jehovah if we direct a person to the congregation on the premise that they need to just because it's "Jehovah's organization", knowing full well what will be expected from that person as they grow in the congregation, even to the extent of accepting the 1914 doctrine, which we know to be a falsehood? To what extent are we accountable and bloodguilty, should that person discover the repercussions for rejecting 1914 and thereafter loses faith towards Jehovah because they are cut off from the congregation? And what about after that, when they go into a state worse than before we introduced them to the Truth, because they have been disfellowshipped? Perhaps they brought their family into the Truth with them, even; now, they are cut off from the very loved ones they themselves brought in with them. Are we not bloodguilty? Are we not sharers in the shedding of blood? Can we really say that we did our part, that what they do after they join the organization, is on them? ("Am I my brother's keeper?" asked Cain.)

I'd like to hear some reflection on this.

-=:Earthbound:=-[/b]

Hello Earthbound, it certainly is a dilemma isn't it.

I also in all good conscience would not direct people to the organization at this stage, especially as we are learning that it along with all the other so called Christian religions are going to come under close scrutiny when Jesus comes for the inspection, which might be happening even while we speak, and most of these religions and it seems that the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses will be included in this, will be judged adversely and punished so as to refine them and to cast out the "composite evil slave" or "man of lawlessness".

There are ways on the net where you can promote TRUTH, this site is one of the ways where we all can have a share in declaring our faith.
Also you can start a blog if you feel confident to do this, or join a topic site, under the section of Jehovah's Witnesses that discusses things pertaining to God's Word. This is also preaching the Good news.
Knocking on doors is only one avenue.

Just my thought, from FutureMan

[Desert Blossom]

Preaching the good news of the Gospels is a lot easier and more rewarding than taking part in the indoctrinating work of getting a person to qualify for baptism as a JW.

The message of the Gospels is simple, believe in Jesus and exercise faith in his ransom sacrifice. If this leads a person to repentance and the desire to get baptized by water immersion, great! But how many people do you know that have been studying with Jehovah's Witnesses and working towards baptism for years, and been denied over and over again because they don't get enough hours in the ministry or don't measure up in meeting attendance? I knew a few cases in previous years, but this past year I am hearing about this more and more.

Part of giving a good witness is how we live our life and how we deal with other people. Do we blend in with the crowd or do we stand out as different because of striving to live by Bible principles? We can win others over without a word, just by our conduct.

[Desert Blossom]

P.S. I don't direct anyone to the ORG., but direct them to Jehovah and Jesus. I think it's best to stick to the teaching the Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.

(John 14:1) .*.*.“Do not let YOUR hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God, exercise faith also in me.

(John 14:6) .*.*.Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

[Eyes & Ears]

Preaching the good news of the Gospels is a lot easier and more rewarding than taking part in the indoctrinating work of getting a person to qualify for baptism as a JW.

The message of the Gospels is simple, believe in Jesus and exercise faith in his ransom sacrifice. If this leads a person to repentance and the desire to get baptized by water immersion, great! But how many people do you know that have been studying with Jehovah's Witnesses and working towards baptism for years, and been denied over and over again because they don't get enough hours in the ministry or don't measure up in meeting attendance? I knew a few cases in previous years, but this past year I am hearing about this more and more.

Part of giving a good witness is how we live our life and how we deal with other people. Do we blend in with the crowd or do we stand out as different because of striving to live by Bible principles? We can win others over without a word, just by our conduct.
</span>
[/b]

I KNOW THIS TO BE A FACT, I HAVE HAD PERSONS APPROACH ME WHEN I
WAS IN THE WORKFORCE (BEFORE RETIRING ) AND SAY TO ME:
WHAT RELIGION ARE YOU. YOU ARE SO DIFFERENT. YOU SEEM SO CALM AND
PEACEFUL. YOU NEVER GET UPSET (YEAH IF THEY ONLY KNEW - LOL).

BECAUSE OF APPLYING BIBLE PRINCIPLES WITH JEHOVAH&#39;S HELP, I WAS ABLE TO CONDUCT A STUDY ON MY JOB DUE TO APPLYING WHAT JEHOVAH HAD TAUGHT ME REGARDING THE NEW PERSONALITY, AND FRUITAGES OF THE SPIRIT. (We had the study in the conference room at lunch time.) She was always ready and prepared.

One of the ladies I studied with got baptized. Shortly after baptism she called me
and said she was having difficulty inside.

The reason:

This individual was very heavy and a very dark skinned African American. She was not that that pretty according to the world&#39;s standards of outside beauty. But she was a beautiful person on the inside. She was one of the cleanest people I have ever met and her home, husband and daughter were immaculate also. She said she was having difficulty with the friends not really including her in things, etc. etc. I found out later that this was true.

Do you have any idea how disgusted I felt, and embarrassed. With Jehovah&#39;s help and from what I had been through I was able to help her to focus on Jehovah and his son and what is important.

I lost contact with her, but I do hope she did better than I did, because later I allowed the conduct of those inside to affect my relationship with Jehovah and I left, but eventually came back. (ya all know that story)

OKEY DOKEY DB, just wanted to share that experience.

E & E

[TheMdC]

I confess to not having read this thread in detail. Just skimmed a couple posts. My thoughts, based on the original question&#39;s premise, "Are We Bloodguilty?" turn to James chapter four, verses 1-3.

1 From what source are there wars and from what source are there fights among YOU? Are they not from this source, namely, from YOUR cravings for sensual pleasure that carry on a conflict in YOUR members? 2 YOU desire, and yet YOU do not have. YOU go on murdering and coveting, and yet YOU are not able to obtain. YOU go on fighting and waging war. YOU do not have because of YOUR not asking. 3 YOU do ask, and yet YOU do not receive, because YOU are asking for a wrong purpose, that YOU may expend [it] upon YOUR cravings for sensual pleasure.[/b]

James was writing to congregations of anointed Christians here. He didn&#39;t say, "don&#39;t murder people, that&#39;s what the world does." He said "YOU go on murdering." The congregation members were doing it and had been for some time, apparently.

Not much changes in human nature. Are we bloodguilty? Probably. But I don&#39;t think in the way some might believe. Bringing people into the organization of Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses isn&#39;t killing them; it isn&#39;t going to bring them under Jehovah&#39;s wrath whether they come to believe or disbelieve 1914. Doctrine is important but it isn&#39;t what saves people. I think the bloodguilt comes in the way people are driven out of the truth, not the way they&#39;re brought in. IMO, of course.

As bad as Israel and Judah got in false worship, Jehovah never sent prophets to his people telling them to stop being Jews, or to overthrow Jewish leadership. It takes patience and faith to trust that Jehovah will cleanse his people in his own way and time. It is difficult to sit by and watch injustice and calculated falsehood day to day and year to year. But the everyday Jewish people weren&#39;t commanded to overthrow evil leaders. Not even the anointed king David made moves to overthrow Saul. He waited until Jehovah&#39;s time for Saul to be removed, then stepped up at the right time.

[truthseeker]

Last thought on the ministry...what I have seen, and from others, when you free yourself from the WT ways, where you can only say certain things to ones who might be new and fragile, where you have to protect the wickedness that is in the organization and you don&#39;t dare say certain things because you might stumble someone off the bible or stumble them off the way of coming into the organization, when you are free from this and are presenting what is simple and OPEN truth, there is so much more fruit in reaching people&#39;s hearts, having sincere and beneficial discussions of scripture and truth.

I know it is not for everyone, I know people here have chosen many different ways of doing what they see as best before Jehovah, but I just want to say my piece of encouragement and support for those who would choose to leave association with the WT and who might worry about how exactly they will continue on in service and personal growth. Jehovah is not the organization; he is far, far greater than the organization. In cases where the WTBTS has started to be as an actual impediment to reaching people whom Jehovah would love to have close, or where it actually serves to push people away from Jehovah and his will, we need to see clearly right there that it is another spirit at work, it is NOT Jehovah our God. But we can detach ourselves from this defiled and dying thing and step again into Jehovah&#39;s ways for us, and we can see the great things he will do with us and with those he uses us to reach.
Love,
Shira[/b]

I would like to say you have expressed your self very well. The muddy water we swim in has become a little clearer for me to see thru. Most excellent post!

Thanks truthseeker

[Peter]

There are times when there are simply no answerers to a question; I believe this is one of them. I’ve been pondering this for the past five years looking for the middle ground – I still haven’t found it.

Perhaps the best way forward is to let Jehovah deal with it and stop trying to work it out in your head – the web is spun, it can’t be altered – at least not yet.


Whether you’re inside or outside the congregation all will be disciplined to the proper degree in the final analysis – peach what you conscience allows that’s all you can do – that’s all Jehovah expects of you.

[Earthbound]

There are times when there are simply no answerers to a question; I believe this is one of them. I&#39;ve been pondering this for the past five years looking for the middle ground – I still haven&#39;t found it.

Perhaps the best way forward is to let Jehovah deal with it and stop trying to work it out in your head – the web is spun, it can&#39;t be altered – at least not yet.


Whether you&#39;re inside or outside the congregation all will be disciplined to the proper degree in the final analysis – peach what you conscience allows that&#39;s all you can do – that&#39;s all Jehovah expects of you.[/b]

I agree, and I&#39;ve certainly appreciated the comments I&#39;ve been reading in this topic. I guess, for me, the bottom line is that it&#39;s not cut-and-dry as some might say. Directing others to the KH simply because. Sure, most of the friends have no clue as to the reality within the congregation, and so they are inviting others to join the congregation out of their own ignorance (and bliss).

But for those who are more than a little aware of the problems and snares within the congregation, there is far more to consider. If I manage to get a father to come to the meetings, and he in turn manages to convince his wife and children to come because he becomes convinced that it is the Truth, and a year from now, his daughter is molested by a pedophile in the congregation who was allowed to remain by the elders because he was "sufficiently repentant," do I not share a portion of the bloodguilt in that matter? What if, after that happens and the elders once more cater to the pedophile and tell the daughter and the parents to "wait on Jehovah," that father decides this can&#39;t possibly be the Truth, leaves, and becomes turned off to ALL religious inclination, do I not share a portion of bloodguilt in that matter?

It is one thing to direct people to the organization out of ignorance. But I believe it is an entirely different matter to do so and not forewarn and prepare that person beforehand of what is possible, what has been done, and what will happen. Full disclosure. The fact of the matter is, that for the most part, Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses have come under bondage to the Society, and articles that reiterate the importance of obedience to the Society as a matter of one&#39;s salvation (or righteous standing before God) only make that more evident.

It is one thing for us to make a conscious, informed decision to continue in the congregation ourselves, knowing full well these things. But do we have the right to subject someone else to bondage without first informing them fully? Yet, if we do, are we not placing ourselves at risk of being found "apostate" and subsequently disfellowshipped for causing "division" in the congregation?

And what about those who hold the view that we get them to the congregation, but that what they do after that is on them, that we did our part in getting them to "Jehovah&#39;s organization"?

Again, thank you for your responses!

-=:Earthbound:=-

[TheMdC]

But for those who are more than a little aware of the problems and snares within the congregation, there is far more to consider. If I manage to get a father to come to the meetings, and he in turn manages to convince his wife and children to come because he becomes convinced that it is the Truth, and a year from now, his daughter is molested by a pedophile in the congregation who was allowed to remain by the elders because he was "sufficiently repentant," do I not share a portion of the bloodguilt in that matter? What if, after that happens and the elders once more cater to the pedophile and tell the daughter and the parents to "wait on Jehovah," that father decides this can&#39;t possibly be the Truth, leaves, and becomes turned off to ALL religious inclination, do I not share a portion of bloodguilt in that matter?

...

Again, thank you for your responses!

-=:Earthbound:=-[/b]
I was under the impression that adjustments have been made and the pedophelia issue has been/is being addressed. Elders are supposed to cooperate with authorities and have the perp arrested, whether he&#39;s repentant or not.

Too late for many, I realize, but is this really still a problem? There hasn&#39;t even been a post here in the "child abuse" forum for months and months.

I&#39;m not minimizing the issue; I&#39;m just not sure it&#39;s still an issue.

[James]

If I manage to get a father to come to the meetings, and he in turn manages to convince his wife and children to come because he becomes convinced that it is the Truth, and a year from now, his daughter is molested by a pedophile in the congregation who was allowed to remain by the elders because he was "sufficiently repentant," do I not share a portion of the bloodguilt in that matter?[/b]

Hello Earthbound,

Absolutely not. First, you could not know in advance that the molestation would occur and secondly, you would not be privy to the reasons for the elders decision.


What if, after that happens and the elders once more cater to the pedophile and tell the daughter and the parents to "wait on Jehovah," that father decides this can&#39;t possibly be the Truth, leaves, and becomes turned off to ALL religious inclination, do I not share a portion of bloodguilt in that matter?[/b]

Only if you had irrefutable proof that the perpetrator had not stopped the molestations AND you did not speak out.



It is one thing for us to make a conscious, informed decision to continue in the congregation ourselves, knowing full well these things. But do we have the right to subject someone else to bondage without first informing them fully?
-=:Earthbound:=-[/b]

Obviously, (at least to me), if you told an interested one all the things you know that are wrong with JWs&#39;, they most likely would choose to not join.

James

[imjustaskin]

I&#39;m struggling with this same issue. For years now I have been part of the congregation, but not going out in field service. For the past year or so, Jehovah has been pushing me, pushing me...about the preaching work. I don&#39;t know what to do.

I could never conduct a bible study with someone that leads them to get baptized, because of so many things I don&#39;t believe. But yet, I am seeing someone else&#39;s bible study, making progress, and FOR HIM, the congregation is a god-send. His life was so screwed up, and he has made such wonderful changes. So I look at that and think, clearly, however dysfunctional the structure is, for some, it is Jehovah&#39;s way of helping them. The 1914 issue (or others) is a moot point for him and many others. And if someone WASN&#39;T out there preaching, this person would have never been helped.

So, I am with others, who don&#39;t really know what to do. I have been out sometimes recently, and just focus on sharing a scripture. That&#39;s what I can do for now. Who knows where it will end up. Someone else said, when it is Jehovah telling you to jump, you know it. So I guess I&#39;m just waiting for further instructions!

[Utuna]

Dear all,

Are we bloodguilty if we praise God&#39;s name and qualities in the preaching work?
Are we bloodguilty if we teach someone else about God&#39;s grand purpose and generate deep feelings of love for Him in his/her heart?

Are we rigtheous before Jehovah&#39;s eyes if we prefer to stay home and let the people all around us ignorant about God&#39;s kingdom near at last?

Jesus told his disciples to "go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU."

Did Jesus tell his disciples to stay home and to wait for the angels to do the job?
What are the things Jesus have commanded us to teach? Are they of so little value that our reluctance to preach is greater than our zeal to teach said "things"?

"Have you shown yourself discouraged in the day of distress? Your power will be scanty." - (Prov24:10)

---------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Eyes & Ears]

I&#39;m struggling with this same issue. For years now I have been part of the congregation, but not going out in field service. For the past year or so, Jehovah has been pushing me, pushing me...about the preaching work. I don&#39;t know what to do.

I could never conduct a bible study with someone that leads them to get baptized, because of so many things I don&#39;t believe. But yet, I am seeing someone else&#39;s bible study, making progress, and FOR HIM, the congregation is a god-send. His life was so screwed up, and he has made such wonderful changes. So I look at that and think, clearly, however dysfunctional the structure is, for some, it is Jehovah&#39;s way of helping them. The 1914 issue (or others) is a moot point for him and many others. And if someone WASN&#39;T out there preaching, this person would have never been helped.

So, I am with others, who don&#39;t really know what to do. I have been out sometimes recently, and just focus on sharing a scripture. That&#39;s what I can do for now. Who knows where it will end up. Someone else said, when it is Jehovah telling you to jump, you know it. So I guess I&#39;m just waiting for further instructions![/b]


HI IJA, :wave: ,


Well it is certainly no secret to the board that I have been struggling with this preaching/field service for a long time now. As you stated, you can feel Jehovah nudging you to get active in the ministry. I&#39;m still struggling with this also as perhaps others on board.

I am still struggling with the Bible study aspect right now. Jehovah knows how I feel about it, I cannot hide my feelings nor lie to Jehovah. He knows I do not want to conduct a Bible Study because I feel uncomfortable with many things. Right, wrong I don&#39;t know, but there are just some things I cannot teach people now as I did in the past. I am of the opinion I feel this way because of following the current field ministry arrangements of the org.

So it will be up to me to decide when I feel Jehovah is saying ok now E & E
it is time to jump off this train and go over here................................Most likely when that happens I won&#39;t feel this strain of worrying about publications and
magazines and so forth. For now, I am staying still until I am sure. Sounds dumb to some I know. But until I am sure I have to do it this way and I guess I will be all jumpled up inside. I just hope I am right about not being confused or half asleep when Jehovah says JUMP NOW AND I MEAN NOW.

I also see others conducting Bible studies and some of their studies attend the meetings. I also know of some who are totally confused by what they see and hear especially when they are told we are living in a SPIRITUAL PARADISE, and there is a pregnant young sister sitting next to them who is not married. Then in the same breath the churches of christendom are condemned from the platform. They see such things as a married couple who come to the KH, but are separated. The husband sits in one place and the wife in another. They learn that a sister and brother married to other mates are being df for having an affair. They are confused.

So yes, I understand what you are feeling, because I am feeling it and perhaps many others. Sometimes I get overwhelmed and you can hear and see it in my postings. This happens because we cannot discuss these things with those in position of leadership and also because we just don&#39;t know (some of us) what to do with these feelings we are pushing down and they keep popping up.

Is this from Jehovah (rhetorical questions) why are we feeling this way. Who is making us feel this way. Is this self induced stress, or is this due to the goings on inside. I struggle with this daily. If it was not for Jehovah&#39;s holy spirit I have no idea how I would be able to HOLD ON DURING THESE CHALLENGING TIMES.

Right now I am going out doing street work with several sisters. I also go out on Saturdays and sometimes a week day. I talk about JEHOVAH&#39;S KINGDOM. When they hand out those prepared sermons from the KM, I say NO THANK YOU. (usually a sister will make copies from the km and pass them out. It is a nice jester, and perhaps helpful too many, but I don&#39;t want a prepared sermon of someone else regardless of the sincerity) It is hard enough dealing with what we have to deal with and now I want a prepared sermon to talk to folks. I might just as well take the Reasoning book and just read from that.

I tell Jehovah the truth when I discuss the ministry in prayer. Sometimes I just say Jehovah help me (because I am so overwhelmed) I have no idea what to do.

Some have no problems with placing publications like the Bible Teach book. I cannot do it IJA. I just cannot. I placed one book and it is still creeping me out. I place the A & W and then it bothers my mind. So that is enough to send one over the edge if they don&#39;t keep hold n on tight to Jehovah.

Some days, I just want to say ENOUGH I HAVE HAD ENOUGH. EVERY BODY JUST LEAVE ME THE HECK ALONE. But I keep hold n on tight. Some very loving board members have helped me to not lose it and I believe Jehovah has allowed them to say the right thing at the right time as well as giving me scriptural reasons for what they are saying to me.

Jehovah&#39;s love, holy spirit, his word, the board members keep me from going nut-so. Also when I see the lost and troubled faces of some of the b/s at the KH who have no idea what is going on, but know something is not right. I just break down at times when I get home. It is so very sad.

I so want to just stand up in that KH and say, STOP IT, if you say how much food I am getting from Jehovah through the FDS one more time I will scream. Do you know how sickening that sounds from the platform and in their prayers. What in the world has happened to Jesus. Everything now is through Jehovah and the FDS. It is not the Jehovah part that bothers me it is the way they add through the FDS.

So before I go on and on, no right now I cannot conduct a Bible Study. If I follow up any interest, I will talk more about Jehovah&#39;s kingdom and his purpose. 1914, and all the other stuff, right, wrong, is it important, I dunno really. But I feel deep inside myself that I cannot teach that, I just cannot let that come out of my mouth.

So you are not alone IJA, you are certainly not alone.

May you continue to Hold on tight to Jehovah because things are not gonna get better as you know. We have to endure this in order to get through the time that will be cut short.

One last thing there are so many wonderful people here and they all have been helpful in someway. But what it boils down to in the end, is we each have to decide for ourselves what we are doing and how, and WHEN WE FEEL JEHOVAH IS TELLING US TO JUMP OFF THE TRAIN. THAT AIN&#39;T EASY, but I believe it is becoming more and more obvious as things are certainly unfolding at a much faster pace than in years past.


And the tree of the field must give its fruitage, and the land itself will give its yield, and they will actually prove to be on their soil in security. And they will have to know that I am Jehovah [b]WHEN I BREAK THE BARS OF THEIR YOKE and I HAVE DELIVERED THEM OUT OF THE HAND OF THOSE WHO HAD BEEN USING THEM AS SLAVES.</span>

[imjustaskin]

E&E,

Your words are very encouraging. It means so much to know that others go through the same issues.

You said,
I just hope I am right about not being confused or half asleep when Jehovah says JUMP NOW AND I MEAN NOW.

Your heart is clearly complete toward Jehovah, and anxiously listening for his guidance. Trust in that - trust that Jehovah will make his will known to you, and don&#39;t make yourself crazy about it. (ha - easier said than done!:-)

I have a friend who is not a JW, but who has a very personal relationship with God nevertheless. Once I was moaning to her, should I stay in the congregation, should I leave...she looked me straight in the face, and said, "Did God tell you to leave?" Uh, well, no. And she said, "then you stay until He tells you to leave." Ouch. But she was right. I honestly believe that we get Jehovah&#39;s answer on something, there is no uncertainty about it. We just have to wait until the answer comes.

So E&E, in the meantime...

Phil 4:7 May the peace of God that excels all thought guard your heart and mind by means of Christ Jesus.

[Eyes & Ears]

E&E,

Your words are very encouraging. It means so much to know that others go through the same issues.

You said,
I just hope I am right about not being confused or half asleep when Jehovah says JUMP NOW AND I MEAN NOW.

Your heart is clearly complete toward Jehovah, and anxiously listening for his guidance. Trust in that - trust that Jehovah will make his will known to you, and don&#39;t make yourself crazy about it. (ha - easier said than done!:-)

I have a friend who is not a JW, but who has a very personal relationship with God nevertheless. Once I was moaning to her, should I stay in the congregation, should I leave...she looked me straight in the face, and said, "Did God tell you to leave?" Uh, well, no. And she said, "then you stay until He tells you to leave." Ouch. But she was right. I honestly believe that we get Jehovah&#39;s answer on something, there is no uncertainty about it. We just have to wait until the answer comes.

So E&E, in the meantime...

Phil 4:7 May the peace of God that excels all thought guard your heart and mind by means of Christ Jesus.[/b]


:icon_razz: :y: :y: ;)

E & E

[Eyes & Ears]

<div class='quotemain'>But for those who are more than a little aware of the problems and snares within the congregation, there is far more to consider. If I manage to get a father to come to the meetings, and he in turn manages to convince his wife and children to come because he becomes convinced that it is the Truth, and a year from now, his daughter is molested by a pedophile in the congregation who was allowed to remain by the elders because he was "sufficiently repentant," do I not share a portion of the bloodguilt in that matter? What if, after that happens and the elders once more cater to the pedophile and tell the daughter and the parents to "wait on Jehovah," that father decides this can&#39;t possibly be the Truth, leaves, and becomes turned off to ALL religious inclination, do I not share a portion of bloodguilt in that matter?

...

Again, thank you for your responses!

-=:Earthbound:=-[/b]
I was under the impression that adjustments have been made and the pedophelia issue has been/is being addressed. Elders are supposed to cooperate with authorities and have the perp arrested, whether he&#39;s repentant or not.

too late for many and yes it is still an issue to those that are hurting inside themselves and who are scarred for life from what these evil people from our SPRIRITUAL PARADISE HAVE DONE.

Some are able to move on and some move on and are filled with all sorts of
mental and emotional issues from their experience. I know this personally to be true. There are perverts still sitting amongst God&#39;s people and they are in position of leadership and some are not. They make me sick.


THERE ARE PEDOPHILE PERVERTS AND THERE ARE OTHER TYPES OF PERVERTS SITTING RIGHT DOWN SMILING AND GRINNING AND RAISING THEIR HANDS AND GOING OUT IN THE MINISTRY. AND JEHOVAH IS NOT GONNA LET THEM GET AWAY WITH THEIR FILTH.

They may be getting away from man, but Jehovah sees everything they are doing, thinking, viewing, etc. So although we may not see anything in the Child abuse section, STUFF IS STILL GOING ON AND IT IS REPULSIVE.

Off child abuse case for a minute:

Women are still (IMO) not given the same treatment as men in this org. I ALSO KNOW THIS PERSONALLY TO BE TRUE. I know of cases where bros. who did disgusting things were privately reproved after their wives were asked "DOES ANYONE KNOW ABOUT THIS"?

Because no one publicly knew, the brother was reproved privately, and the wife forgave him. Things went along well for awhile and then the husband got invovled in his STUFF AGAIN.

I know of a case where a sister was asked DID YOU DO ANYTHING TO MAKE YOUR HUSBAND ACT THIS WAY. The brother did not know how to control himself, and she was asked what she did to him. :icon_rolleyes: :icon_neutral:

I know of cases where brothers were sick of their wives, so they did things to make them GO OUT OF THE MARITAL ARRANGEMENT FOR INTIMACY. The wife was df and the husband wasted no time re-marrying. In fact one of these brothers claimed to be of the anointed. After 10-15 years or more, HE DECIDED OH WELL I AM NOT OF THE ANOINTED AFTER ALL. He is still a respected member of the congregation skipping around with his new wife and his ex wife is a mental case.

Sorry I have a tendency to ramble and get off the subject somtimes.

So my point is yes, it is still an ISSUE, I know it is with Jehovah and he is GONNA SETTLE IT ALONG WITH OTHER ISSUES.

Thanks for listening to my expressions. They are not meant to be mean, this is just
something that tends to grate my last nerve along with many other things going on inside the org, that Jehovah said would take place in these challenging critical times. I don&#39;t usually discuss this issue publicly.

E & E

[TheMdC]

Anecdotal stories are all well and good, but I asked what I thought is a legitimate question. Is it really still happening? Or has the new instruction from the branch been effective, and to what extent? Apparently yes, to the former and ??? to the latter.

Please understand, I seek information. I don&#39;t mean to imply that it&#39;s all over because I honestly don&#39;t know. But I do think the organization has taken some positive steps and that local elders are more cooperative with authorities than in the past.

Men are pigs. I know. We don&#39;t understand women; even the best of men can only hope to have a slight inkling. But we&#39;re not all bad, and not every elder is a supporter of pedophelia and pedophiles.

If you have a link to some current, ongoing cases, I&#39;d like to read about them. I don&#39;t want to minimize the effect abuse has had on many children and sisters through the years. It is a tragedy and it is disgusting, and I probably should educate myself more about the history of it in the organization.

Feel free to correct anyone you like. We are all brothers and sisters. There are no ranks among humans in the true faith, IMO.

[Desert Blossom]

I think a person can be balanced in how they teach others about the Bible, give them all the good things Utuna&#39;s talking about, but warn them about the pitfalls others have mentioned.

I mentioned previously that one of my co-workers is studying with a sister. She comes to me with a lot of her questions. What she will find out over time is that I will never lie to her or whitewash anything. When the time is right, I&#39;ll share this site with her. Right now it&#39;s more important for her to build a good foundation of Bible truths and to build her faith in Jehovah, Jesus, and the coming Kingdom.

If she ever asks any of the hard questions I&#39;ll give her honest answers. People coming in the truth today have an advantage, they have access to the truth about the truth. They are in a position to make a really informed decision, and to protect themselves from the bad things on the inside.

[FutureMan]

Anecdotal stories are all well and good, but I asked what I thought is a legitimate question. Is it really still happening? Or has the new instruction from the branch been effective, and to what extent? Apparently yes, to the former and ??? to the latter.

Please understand, I seek information. I don&#39;t mean to imply that it&#39;s all over because I honestly don&#39;t know. But I do think the organization has taken some positive steps and that local elders are more cooperative with authorities than in the past.

Men are pigs. I know. We don&#39;t understand women; even the best of men can only hope to have a slight inkling. But we&#39;re not all bad, and not every elder is a supporter of pedophelia and pedophiles.

If you have a link to some current, ongoing cases, I&#39;d like to read about them. I don&#39;t want to minimize the effect abuse has had on many children and sisters through the years. It is a tragedy and it is disgusting, and I probably should educate myself more about the history of it in the organization.

Feel free to correct anyone you like. We are all brothers and sisters. There are no ranks among humans in the true faith, IMO.[/b]

Here is one link, Watchtower Documents LLC - Court Documents (http://www.watchtowerdocuments.com/secrets.html)

From FutureMan

[Jinnvisible]

I was under the impression that adjustments have been made and the pedophelia issue has been/is being addressed. Elders are supposed to cooperate with authorities and have the perp arrested, whether he&#39;s repentant or not.

Too late for many, I realize, but is this really still a problem? There hasn&#39;t even been a post here in the "child abuse" forum for months and months.

I&#39;m not minimizing the issue; I&#39;m just not sure it&#39;s still an issue.[/b]

The problem might express itself through handling and procedure, yet unfortunately its core is based in pride. As long as there continues a pridefull condition of God&#39;s people there will likely continue problems in this area. Jesus` refining of his house is likely the event that will turn this around.

Pride provides a refuge for the evil doer. As soon as a chorus of voices is raised "We are clean", " We are good" an evildoer can step right in and repeat the chorus and be protected and covered by it.

Unless the whole condition of Jehovah`s people has changed, you either still have the issue or at best the potencial. The leavening of the people is encouraged through the literature, which contains the most important commentary upon the bible in existance and also theological contaminants.

[Eyes & Ears]

I think a person can be balanced in how they teach others about the Bible, give them all the good things Utuna&#39;s talking about, but warn them about the pitfalls others have mentioned.

I mentioned previously that one of my co-workers is studying with a sister. She comes to me with a lot of her questions. What she will find out over time is that I will never lie to her or whitewash anything. When the time is right, I&#39;ll share this site with her. Right now it&#39;s more important for her to build a good foundation of Bible truths and to build her faith in Jehovah, Jesus, and the coming Kingdom.

If she ever asks any of the hard questions I&#39;ll give her honest answers. People coming in the truth today have an advantage, they have access to the truth about the truth. They are in a position to make a really informed decision, and to protect themselves from the bad things on the inside.[/b]


Hey DB,

I like the way you are handling this. Yepper, I agree also people today coming in do ask questions. Some of the questions that a newly baptized publisher has asked me, makes me SQUIRM AND I DO MEAN SQUIRM. I always try to answer using the scriptures and ask them now how do you think you should handle that. Sometimes they answer and sometimes they say they are gonna pray to Jehovah as I sit there SWEATING BULLETS.


E & E

[TheMdC]

Thanks for the link, FM. It would be nice if everything there was free and not for sale, though. :icon_rolleyes: Also, good points everyone. Looks like I have some reading to do to educate myself.

[Eyes & Ears]

Anecdotal stories are all well and good, but I asked what I thought is a legitimate question. Is it really still happening? Or has the new instruction from the branch been effective, and to what extent? Apparently yes, to the former and ??? to the latter.

Please understand, I seek information. I don&#39;t mean to imply that it&#39;s all over because I honestly don&#39;t know. But I do think the organization has taken some positive steps and that local elders are more cooperative with authorities than in the past.

Men are pigs. I know. We don&#39;t understand women; even the best of men can only hope to have a slight inkling. But we&#39;re not all bad, and not every elder is a supporter of pedophelia and pedophiles.

If you have a link to some current, ongoing cases, I&#39;d like to read about them. I don&#39;t want to minimize the effect abuse has had on many children and sisters through the years. It is a tragedy and it is disgusting, and I probably should educate myself more about the history of it in the organization.

Feel free to correct anyone you like. We are all brothers and sisters. There are no ranks among humans in the true faith, IMO.[/b]


Hey MDC,

My anecdotal stories........... well, that&#39;s just my way/style I chose to express myself on the board in some situations not all. I was responding to what I was feeling when I read your expressions, you were looking for something else. Oh well GO FIGURE RIGHT? :icon_rolleyes: .

Yepper I agree men and women are still trying to understand each other. Years ago I read a book entitled. MEN ARE FROM MARS, WOMEN ARE FROM VENUS. There is some truth in those words.

I was just trying to be respectful because we don&#39;t really know each other. Also it could be a carry over on my part from interacting with brothers inside the KH. Any stepping out by sisters sometimes is considered a NO NO NO. So I was just being cautious that is all.

Thank you

E & E

[TheMdC]

Thanks, sister. One great benefit of the Internet, in my opinion, is the freedom of speech. Don&#39;t tread lightly around me; if I need a smack, let me have it. :stupid:
I can&#39;t guarantee I won&#39;t take offense but I can promise I&#39;ll try not to. The welcome on this board has been wonderful. Freedom to disagree without reprisals, that&#39;s something new and welcome to me.

[truthseeker]

Thanks, sister. One great benefit of the Internet, in my opinion, is the freedom of speech. Don&#39;t tread lightly around me; if I need a smack, let me have it. :stupid:
I can&#39;t guarantee I won&#39;t take offense but I can promise I&#39;ll try not to. The welcome on this board has been wonderful. Freedom to disagree without reprisals, that&#39;s something new and welcome to me.[/b]

Sister Jinn?
Did you follow thru with the sex change!

LOL --- I thought Jinn was a sister to -- Because of that silly picture he uses -- LOL

Love truthseeker

[truthseeker]

<div class='quotemain'>Thanks, sister. One great benefit of the Internet, in my opinion, is the freedom of speech. Don&#39;t tread lightly around me; if I need a smack, let me have it. :stupid:
I can&#39;t guarantee I won&#39;t take offense but I can promise I&#39;ll try not to. The welcome on this board has been wonderful. Freedom to disagree without reprisals, that&#39;s something new and welcome to me.[/b]

Sister Jinn?
Did you follow thru with the sex change!

LOL --- I thought Jinn was a sister to -- Because of that silly picture he uses -- LOL

Love truthseeker
[/b][/quote]


Oh crapp I thought you were addresing Jinnvisable: I put my foot in it didnt I.
Sorry Jinn:
Truthseeker

[TheMdC]

:lol:

[Eyes & Ears]

Thanks, sister. One great benefit of the Internet, in my opinion, is the freedom of speech. Don&#39;t tread lightly around me; if I need a smack, let me have it. :stupid:
I can&#39;t guarantee I won&#39;t take offense but I can promise I&#39;ll try not to. The welcome on this board has been wonderful. Freedom to disagree without reprisals, that&#39;s something new and welcome to me.[/b]


OKEY DOKEY TheMdc. :icon_razz: :y: :)

E & E

[Eyes & Ears]

<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>Thanks, sister. One great benefit of the Internet, in my opinion, is the freedom of speech. Don&#39;t tread lightly around me; if I need a smack, let me have it. :stupid:
I can&#39;t guarantee I won&#39;t take offense but I can promise I&#39;ll try not to. The welcome on this board has been wonderful. Freedom to disagree without reprisals, that&#39;s something new and welcome to me.[/b]

Sister Jinn?
Did you follow thru with the sex change!

LOL --- I thought Jinn was a sister to -- Because of that silly picture he uses -- LOL

Love truthseeker
[/b][/quote]


Oh crapp I thought you were addresing Jinnvisable: I put my foot in it didnt I.
Sorry Jinn:
Truthseeker
[/b][/quote]

WAY TO GO TRUTHSEEKER :ban_dance01: :applaudit: :rofl: . This was so funny.

Well now with that I am gonna say GOOD NIGHT YOU YOU ALL.

Sisterly love to all on board, what a wonderful bunch of people we have here.

E & E

[TheMdC]

I&#39;m partway through educating myself via the link provided in this thread, and other &#39;net surfing and have a question.

I&#39;ve read several times that victims of abuse or molestation are often disfellowshipped or threatened with disfellowshipping for speaking out. What are the stated grounds for such a disfellowshipping? Slander?

[imjustaskin]

I&#39;m partway through educating myself via the link provided in this thread, and other &#39;net surfing and have a question.

I&#39;ve read several times that victims of abuse or molestation are often disfellowshipped or threatened with disfellowshipping for speaking out. What are the stated grounds for such a disfellowshipping? Slander?[/b]


I don&#39;t know about the victims, but I know that those who spoke out about the mishandling of abuse cases were df&#39;d for "causing divisions".

Even my husband observed that spoke multitudes, because if what they were saying was untrue, they would have been df&#39;d for slander or lying or something else. The fact that they were not, clearly says that what they were saying was true, just nobody wanted to hear it. If the truth is causing divisions, then there is a problem.

[EmmaKay]

<div class='quotemain'>I&#39;m partway through educating myself via the link provided in this thread, and other &#39;net surfing and have a question.

I&#39;ve read several times that victims of abuse or molestation are often disfellowshipped or threatened with disfellowshipping for speaking out. What are the stated grounds for such a disfellowshipping? Slander?[/b]


I don&#39;t know about the victims, but I know that those who spoke out about the mishandling of abuse cases were df&#39;d for "causing divisions".


[/b][/quote]

Hi IJA and MdC,

I was one of those abuse victims that was threatened with df&#39;ing if I spoke out against my rapist. I was told that if I spoke out I would bring reproach upon Jehovah&#39;s name. Yes, me, the victim, would dishonor Jehovah and his congregation if I said a word after that evening to ANYONE. I was told that I could ONLY talk about it with an Elder. My Father even kept much of the conversations between me and him with the elder&#39;s, from my Mother. I just recently in the past few years related the entire story to her. And ya know what?! SHE BLAMES ME!! For "Putting yourself in that situation." Yeppers!! A child....putting themselves there. Talk about backwards reasoning.
I know you probably haven&#39;t read my story...but there was another young sister at the hall that was molested by the same guy, we spoke out to the elders together...WE weren&#39;t even allowed to talk about it...to EACH OTHER after that evening. Just talking about it amongst ourselves would bring reproach to Jehovah and his congregation.
We were made to feel shameful about finding support for ourselves. Ashamed and scared to displease Jehovah at even having a thought that I wasn&#39;t allowed to discuss with anyone besides an Elder. Not even my parents!!

So that was the reason given, I would "bring reproach upon Jehovah and his congregation." If I spoke about it, I would be DF&#39;ed on the spot without a judicial committee meeting even. That&#39;s what I was told. All they needed was an accusation from ANYONE that I said something and BAM, I would be df&#39;ed right then and there.
I was 15 years old at that time.

Well, that was my experience at any rate. I know it has been the experience of countless others as well.

-EmmaK

[FutureMan]

<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>I&#39;m partway through educating myself via the link provided in this thread, and other &#39;net surfing and have a question.

I&#39;ve read several times that victims of abuse or molestation are often disfellowshipped or threatened with disfellowshipping for speaking out. What are the stated grounds for such a disfellowshipping? Slander?[/b]


I don&#39;t know about the victims, but I know that those who spoke out about the mishandling of abuse cases were df&#39;d for "causing divisions".


[/b][/quote]

Hi IJA and MdC,

I was one of those abuse victims that was threatened with df&#39;ing if I spoke out against my rapist. I was told that if I spoke out I would bring reproach upon Jehovah&#39;s name. Yes, me, the victim, would dishonor Jehovah and his congregation if I said a word after that evening to ANYONE. I was told that I could ONLY talk about it with an Elder. My Father even kept much of the conversations between me and him with the elder&#39;s, from my Mother. I just recently in the past few years related the entire story to her. And ya know what?! SHE BLAMES ME!! For "Putting yourself in that situation." Yeppers!! A child....putting themselves there. Talk about backwards reasoning.
I know you probably haven&#39;t read my story...but there was another young sister at the hall that was molested by the same guy, we spoke out to the elders together...WE weren&#39;t even allowed to talk about it...to EACH OTHER after that evening. Just talking about it amongst ourselves would bring reproach to Jehovah and his congregation.
We were made to feel shameful about finding support for ourselves. Ashamed and scared to displease Jehovah at even having a thought that I wasn&#39;t allowed to discuss with anyone besides an Elder. Not even my parents!!

So that was the reason given, I would "bring reproach upon Jehovah and his congregation." If I spoke about it, I would be DF&#39;ed on the spot without a judicial committee meeting even. That&#39;s what I was told. All they needed was an accusation from ANYONE that I said something and BAM, I would be df&#39;ed right then and there.
I was 15 years old at that time.

Well, that was my experience at any rate. I know it has been the experience of countless others as well.

-EmmaK
[/b][/quote]

I&#39;m sorry Emma, that you had to go through all that.

Sometimes when I hear about these abuses, it makes me even ashamed of being a male. :(

From FutureMan

[EmmaKay]

<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>I&#39;m partway through educating myself via the link provided in this thread, and other &#39;net surfing and have a question.

I&#39;ve read several times that victims of abuse or molestation are often disfellowshipped or threatened with disfellowshipping for speaking out. What are the stated grounds for such a disfellowshipping? Slander?[/b]


I don&#39;t know about the victims, but I know that those who spoke out about the mishandling of abuse cases were df&#39;d for "causing divisions".


[/b][/quote]

Hi IJA and MdC,

I was one of those abuse victims that was threatened with df&#39;ing if I spoke out against my rapist. I was told that if I spoke out I would bring reproach upon Jehovah&#39;s name. Yes, me, the victim, would dishonor Jehovah and his congregation if I said a word after that evening to ANYONE. I was told that I could ONLY talk about it with an Elder. My Father even kept much of the conversations between me and him with the elder&#39;s, from my Mother. I just recently in the past few years related the entire story to her. And ya know what?! SHE BLAMES ME!! For "Putting yourself in that situation." Yeppers!! A child....putting themselves there. Talk about backwards reasoning.
I know you probably haven&#39;t read my story...but there was another young sister at the hall that was molested by the same guy, we spoke out to the elders together...WE weren&#39;t even allowed to talk about it...to EACH OTHER after that evening. Just talking about it amongst ourselves would bring reproach to Jehovah and his congregation.
We were made to feel shameful about finding support for ourselves. Ashamed and scared to displease Jehovah at even having a thought that I wasn&#39;t allowed to discuss with anyone besides an Elder. Not even my parents!!

So that was the reason given, I would "bring reproach upon Jehovah and his congregation." If I spoke about it, I would be DF&#39;ed on the spot without a judicial committee meeting even. That&#39;s what I was told. All they needed was an accusation from ANYONE that I said something and BAM, I would be df&#39;ed right then and there.
I was 15 years old at that time.

Well, that was my experience at any rate. I know it has been the experience of countless others as well.

-EmmaK
[/b][/quote]

I&#39;m sorry Emma, that you had to go through all that.

Sometimes when I hear about these abuses, it makes me even ashamed of being a male. :(

From FutureMan
[/b][/quote]

Hi FM!!!

No worries...really, it&#39;s not only men that are rapists. Here not too long ago, I was reading somewhere, really wish I knew where...that it&#39;s probably just as common with men. Men are just more secretive about it, it&#39;s like a double shame for them.
Shamed at the rape and Shamed at being over powered by a female...that&#39;s just not &#39;manly&#39;. Kinda sad that it&#39;s how we socialize our children eh?

I don&#39;t blame &#39;men&#39;, I blame THAT man. It did, however, take me years to separate the two.

But thank you for your expressions Brother, I understand what you mean.

-EmmaK

P.S. Sorry, was not trying to highjack the thread here. carry on men! :icon_redface:

[imjustaskin]

EmmaKay, your courage and strength for surviving with your faith still intact are astounding, and an encouragement to me. Jehovah surely holds you in special place in his heart.

To MdC, EmmaKay&#39;s story shows a basic point that still has not changed - that the org is more concerned about their public persona that about doing the right thing for the sheep. Is this still going on? Yes, as evidenced by their ongoing attempts to keep abuse survivors silent via court settlements. By their ongoing insistence on claiming "clergy-penitent" privelege when asked to testify against any of these filth. (When have we EVER had a clergy class????? hello!) By their ongoing refusal to take reporting away from the judgement of the elders and make it mandatory, whether the state requires it or not.

The issue is the ATTITUDE of the organization about these cases. Would any of the above still be happening if their attitude had changed?

Even the friggin Catholic Church issued an apology. How can you repent of something if you never admit you were wrong? THAT&#39;s the issue.

OK, rant over.

[Utuna]

"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton</span>

[TheMdC]

Thank you for sharing your history, Emma.
:sad2:

[Jinnvisible]

Sister Jinn?
Did you follow thru with the sex change![/b]

Its by a Japanesse wannabe manga student artist. Hence the style is a bit of a misho masho.

[Jinnvisible]

I was one of those abuse victims ................. I just recently in the past few years related the entire story to her. And ya know what?! SHE BLAMES ME!! For "Putting yourself in that situation." Yeppers!! A child....putting themselves there. Talk about backwards reasoning.[/b]

Its weird but its not uncommon in abuse cases. You seem pretty together mentaly Emma. An abuse survior.

[Eyes & Ears]

Emma Kay,

Jehovah has certainly been with you to hold you up. What a wonderful strong
person you are. I just do not know what else to say EK, just so lost for words. :icon_neutral:


************************************************** ***************

Utuna stated to IJA: "mentality" I find manifested in a great many males in this org.

Not only with brothers interacting with sisters or issues such as serious as abuse, but also with certain brothers who think more of themselves than necessary when dealing with other brothers they do not feel are on their intellectual/spiritual level.

Not all brothers are like this, but many are. They have an abrupt and sometimes abrasive attitude like you are attacking them or questioning their authority. To me Things that should be addressed are covered up so the org has an appearance of being squeaky clean. This is why some friends have no idea of what is going on, and when it is mentioned from others or in the media, they say that JW&#39;s/org whatever, are being persecuted, or those who inside speak out are bringing reproach on Jehovah/the org. DISGUSTING!!


Not gonna change the direction of this thread, but I have felt this way for many many years about some of the males in this org. I didn&#39;t know if it was the casualness or indifference or something else when certain issues were just kinda swept aside. It just bothered me how some things were handled and DISMISSED, KEPT QUIET FOR APPEARANCE SAKE/HANDLED PRIVATELY, ETC.

JUST TURNS MY STOMACH. :icon_evil: :fight.sml:

Ok that is enough from me. But Utuna&#39;s expression reminded me of my feelings about this. Sorry if I went off a tad.

Much love to you Emma. Makes me just want to scream.

Love

E & E