Christ The Mediator Between Who?

[diamondiiz]

"Those for Whom Christ Is Mediator. The apostle Paul declares that there is “one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all”—for both Jews and Gentiles. (1Ti 2:5, 6) He mediates the new covenant between God and those taken into the new covenant, the congregation of spiritual Israel. (Heb 8:10-13; 12:24; Eph 5:25-27) Christ became Mediator in order that the ones called “might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance” (Heb 9:15); he assists, not the angels, but “Abraham’s seed.” (Heb 2:16) He assists those who are to be brought into the new covenant to be ‘adopted’ into Jehovah’s household of spiritual sons; these eventually will be in heaven as Christ’s brothers, becoming a part with him of the seed of Abraham. (Ro 8:15-17, 23-25; Ga 3:29) He has transmitted to them the promised holy spirit, with which spirit they are sealed and are given a token of what is to come, their heavenly inheritance. (2Co 5:5; Eph 1:13, 14) The total number of those who are finally and permanently sealed is revealed in Revelation 7:4-8 as 144,000." - IS2

----

I just came to realize what the WT teaches which maybe I've heard before but didn't grasp the meaning or was going along with all the other crap that they've pushed down on the rank and file. If they teach that Christ is the mediator only between God and anointed so therefor why do all JWs ("non-anointed) pray in the name of Jesus if he's not their mediator as well? The Insight on the Scriptures gives a bogus explanation and to me this is a totally wrong teaching being taught by GB! I can't believe I didn't understand this before but doesn't this teaching in a way over step it's boundaries? As I see it, Christ died for the whole world and no one comes to the father except through Christ John 14:6.

"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" - 1Tim 2:5 English standard

Looking forward to who understood this doctrine and meditated on it as to what WT taught.

[Eyes & Ears]

"Those for Whom Christ Is Mediator. The apostle Paul declares that there is "one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all"—for both Jews and Gentiles. (1Ti 2:5, 6) He mediates the new covenant between God and those taken into the new covenant, the congregation of spiritual Israel. (Heb 8:10-13; 12:24; Eph 5:25-27) Christ became Mediator in order that the ones called "might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance" (Heb 9:15); he assists, not the angels, but "Abraham's seed." (Heb 2:16) He assists those who are to be brought into the new covenant to be 'adopted' into Jehovah's household of spiritual sons; these eventually will be in heaven as Christ's brothers, becoming a part with him of the seed of Abraham. (Ro 8:15-17, 23-25; Ga 3:29) He has transmitted to them the promised holy spirit, with which spirit they are sealed and are given a token of what is to come, their heavenly inheritance. (2Co 5:5; Eph 1:13, 14) The total number of those who are finally and permanently sealed is revealed in Revelation 7:4-8 as 144,000." - IS2

----

I just came to realize what the WT teaches which maybe I've heard before but didn't grasp the meaning or was going along with all the other crap that they've pushed down on the rank and file. If they teach that Christ is the mediator only between God and anointed so therefor why do all JWs ("non-anointed) pray in the name of Jesus if he's not their mediator as well? The Insight on the Scriptures gives a bogus explanation and to me this is a totally wrong teaching being taught by GB! I can't believe I didn't understand this before but doesn't this teaching in a way over step it's boundaries? As I see it, Christ died for the whole world and no one comes to the father except through Christ John 14:6.

"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" - 1Tim 2:5 English standard

Looking forward to who understood this doctrine and meditated on it as to what WT taught.[/b]

Hi Diamond "D"

I sent you a pm with a question from readers out of Watchman's old mag bag (2007) regarding that very thing, and also the title of his essay A New Covenant for a New Creation.

There may be some info and scriptures in those two things that you may find interesting, at least that can give ya a start OKEY DOKEY.

Personally, this still messes with my mind a little bit.

E & E

[FutureMan]

"Those for Whom Christ Is Mediator. The apostle Paul declares that there is "one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all"—for both Jews and Gentiles. (1Ti 2:5, 6) He mediates the new covenant between God and those taken into the new covenant, the congregation of spiritual Israel. (Heb 8:10-13; 12:24; Eph 5:25-27) Christ became Mediator in order that the ones called "might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance" (Heb 9:15); he assists, not the angels, but "Abraham's seed." (Heb 2:16) He assists those who are to be brought into the new covenant to be 'adopted' into Jehovah's household of spiritual sons; these eventually will be in heaven as Christ's brothers, becoming a part with him of the seed of Abraham. (Ro 8:15-17, 23-25; Ga 3:29) He has transmitted to them the promised holy spirit, with which spirit they are sealed and are given a token of what is to come, their heavenly inheritance. (2Co 5:5; Eph 1:13, 14) The total number of those who are finally and permanently sealed is revealed in Revelation 7:4-8 as 144,000." - IS2

----

I just came to realize what the WT teaches which maybe I've heard before but didn't grasp the meaning or was going along with all the other crap that they've pushed down on the rank and file. If they teach that Christ is the mediator only between God and anointed so therefor why do all JWs ("non-anointed) pray in the name of Jesus if he's not their mediator as well? The Insight on the Scriptures gives a bogus explanation and to me this is a totally wrong teaching being taught by GB! I can't believe I didn't understand this before but doesn't this teaching in a way over step it's boundaries? As I see it, Christ died for the whole world and no one comes to the father except through Christ John 14:6.

"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" - 1Tim 2:5 English standard

Looking forward to who understood this doctrine and meditated on it as to what WT taught.[/b]

Hello diamondiiz and hello all, if you can gain access to the Watchtower April 15/2009 study magazine, which will be studied on the week of [June 22-28], you will see a subheading entitled : "Value Christ as Mediator" What is interesting is that they appear to be applying this to all of their organization as well as the anointed ones.
It seems to me, that they are coming around to the fact that "The Israel of God" might include all of true Christians which would include all the other ones in the Christian congregation apart from the chosen ones.

It is interesting how this particular paragraph is worded.

Just my thought, from FutureMan

[Nash]

I used to think (quite adamantly, I might add) that the Watchtower was right on this issue.

Now I'm not so sure anymore. While I haven't abandoned the WTS' teaching on this matter completely and would prefer to err on the side of caution, I have done a lot of thinking about it and I haven't made up my mind 100% either way. I've undertaken a thorough study of the entire bible to clearly understand this as well as other issues. (I have no idea when I will be finished, but it could take quite some time.)

At the end of the day, we'll all benefit from Jesus mediatorship anyway.

From what I have thought about the issue, it just seems to make sense to me that:

Moses/Mediator of Law Covenant = Jesus/Mediator of New Covenant
Levites = Anointed* (note that both groups do not inherit land)
Israel = Jehovah's People (as well as those with true faith)

The Watchtower teaches, of course, that Jesus is the mediator of the 144,000 only; this however, in my readjusted view (which might be wrong), doesn't fit the pattern. Moses was not the mediator for only the Levites. The Levites were set aside for special duties, as are the 144,000, but they weren't in between Moses and the other tribes (as far as I can tell).

This is just my opinion.

Nash

*This could mean the "Israel of God." Not all in the Israel of God have the heavenly hope. (Could someone find a scripture to disprove this?) Just because Paul had the heavenly hope doesn't mean that all 1st century Christians had that hope. Besides, wasn't there more than 144,000 in the first century?

I think that some of the faithful and discreet slave (those who have turned into the evil slave and have disqualified themselves as part of the 144,000) have used their position as [former established members of] the 144,000 to create havoc in Jehovah's present day organization. After all, this is what happened in the first century, right? Why couldn't it happen today?

Note: Edited post.

[FutureMan]

I used to think (quite adamantly, I might add) that the Watchtower was right on this issue.

Now I'm not so sure anymore. While I haven't abandoned the WTS' teaching on this matter completely and would prefer to err on the side of caution, I have done a lot of thinking about it and I haven't made up my mind 100% either way. I've undertaken a thorough study of the entire bible to clearly understand this as well as other issues. (I have no idea when I will be finished, but it could take quite some time.)

At the end of the day, we'll all benefit from Jesus mediatorship anyway.

From what I have thought about the issue, it just seems to make sense to me that:

Moses/Mediator of Law Covenant = Jesus/Mediator of New Covenant
Levites = Anointed (note that both groups do not inherit land)
Israel = Jehovah's People (as well as those with true faith)

The Watchtower teaches, of course, that Jesus is the mediator of the 144,000 only; this however, in my readjusted view (which might be wrong), doesn't fit the pattern. Moses was not the mediator for only the Levites. The Levites were set aside for special duties, as are the 144,000.

This is just my opinion.

Nash[/b]

Yes of course you are right Nash, we cannot be adamant about this issue to others as to who Jesus is mediator for.
But we can decide for ourselves.

From FutureMan

[watchman]

I believe the WT is absolutely correct on this teaching. Admittedly, though, it is not an easy thing to understand. But let's try and sort it all out.

It is understood that Jesus holds several offices. He is the king of God's kingdom. He is the high priest of God's spiritual temple. And he is the mediator of the new covenant. There are certain powers peculiarly associated with each office. However, in each case Jesus' primary focus is on those who are anointed. He is their king before be becomes the king of the world. He is their high priest before he begins the work of restoring true worship to mankind. And he mediates the new covenant towards the sons of the kingdom before the nations acquire a blessing from the kingdom.

As regards praying in the name of Jesus, it ought to be recognized that nowhere does the Bible specifically teach that praying in the name of Jesus means that Jesus is acting in the capacity of the mediator. That is merely an assumption. Reasoning on the matter though, it is apparent that before Jesus came down to earth people prayed directly to Jehovah and got a hearing without any intercessor or mediator. Even though Moses was the mediator of the law covenant the Jews did not pray to Jehovah in the name of Moses. So, why does God now require those who desire to approach him in prayer to do so in the name of Jesus? It is because God has exalted Jesus to his throne. Jesus has essentially temporarily become God, and of course the reason Jehovah has given him his throne is in order to prove Satan is a liar in the most unequivocal way possible.

Paul said that Jehovah had exalted Jesus to such a high station that every knee will bend to Christ, "every knee" includes those in heaven (the angels and the resurrected sons of God) those on earth, as well as those underground, which is to say that all of the dead who will yet be resurrected back to earth will ultimately have to obey Jesus as their king. Now, because every knee in heaven will bend to Christ does that mean that Jesus is the mediator for the heavenly angels? No, it does not. But they angels are nonetheless subject to Christ. How about those under the ground? Upon their resurrection will Christ become their mediator? No, he will not. By the time the earthly resurrection takes place Christ's role as the mediator of the new covenant will have already concluded. How do we know that? Because Paul explained to the Corinthians that the evening meal is concluded when Christ arrives. That is what Paul said, that by means of eating and drinking the emblems of the new covenant anointed Christians keep proclaiming the death of the Lord until he arrives. When he arrives he gathers the remaining chosen ones to himself, to heaven that is, and that concludes the new covenant. The nations than inherit the blessings promised to come to them through the seed of Abraham via the survival of the great crowd through the tribulation and the resurrection of the dead back to the earth. Christ will then rule as king over everyone living in heaven and on earth. But it is understood that Jesus will not be mankind's mediator to God even though all prayer and worship to God comes to Christ.

watchman

[Eyes & Ears]

<div class='quotemain'>"Those for Whom Christ Is Mediator. The apostle Paul declares that there is "one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all"—for both Jews and Gentiles. (1Ti 2:5, 6) He mediates the new covenant between God and those taken into the new covenant, the congregation of spiritual Israel. (Heb 8:10-13; 12:24; Eph 5:25-27) Christ became Mediator in order that the ones called "might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance" (Heb 9:15); he assists, not the angels, but "Abraham&#39;s seed." (Heb 2:16) He assists those who are to be brought into the new covenant to be &#39;adopted&#39; into Jehovah&#39;s household of spiritual sons; these eventually will be in heaven as Christ&#39;s brothers, becoming a part with him of the seed of Abraham. (Ro 8:15-17, 23-25; Ga 3:29) He has transmitted to them the promised holy spirit, with which spirit they are sealed and are given a token of what is to come, their heavenly inheritance. (2Co 5:5; Eph 1:13, 14) The total number of those who are finally and permanently sealed is revealed in Revelation 7:4-8 as 144,000." - IS2

----

I just came to realize what the WT teaches which maybe I&#39;ve heard before but didn&#39;t grasp the meaning or was going along with all the other crap that they&#39;ve pushed down on the rank and file. If they teach that Christ is the mediator only between God and anointed so therefor why do all JWs ("non-anointed) pray in the name of Jesus if he&#39;s not their mediator as well? The Insight on the Scriptures gives a bogus explanation and to me this is a totally wrong teaching being taught by GB! I can&#39;t believe I didn&#39;t understand this before but doesn&#39;t this teaching in a way over step it&#39;s boundaries? As I see it, Christ died for the whole world and no one comes to the father except through Christ John 14:6.

"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" - 1Tim 2:5 English standard

Looking forward to who understood this doctrine and meditated on it as to what WT taught.[/b]

Hello diamondiiz and hello all, if you can gain access to the Watchtower April 15/2009 study magazine, which will be studied on the week of [June 22-28], you will see a subheading entitled : "Value Christ as Mediator" What is interesting is that they appear to be applying this to all of their organization as well as the anointed ones.
It seems to me, that they are coming around to the fact that "The Israel of God" might include all of true Christians which would include all the other ones in the Christian congregation apart from the chosen ones.

It is interesting how this particular paragraph is worded.

Just my thought, from FutureMan



[/b][/quote]



I just added this in case some would be interested in reading those two
paragraphs that Future Man referenced above.

E & E




Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania
All Rights Reserved


Page 27 of article Future Man referenced Paragraphs 14 and 15


Value Christ a Mediator


Paragraph 14

Like Moses, Jesus was a mediator. A mediator acts as a bridge between two parties. Moses mediated the Law convenant between Jehovah and the Israelites. If the sons of Jacob obeyed the laws of God, they would remain God&#39;s special property, his congregation (Ex. 18:3-8) That covenant stayed in force from 1513 B.C.E. until the first century C. E.

Paragraph 15

In 33 C. E., Jehovah initiated a BETTER COVENANT with a new Israel, "the Israel of God", which became a worldwide congregation made up of anonted Christians. (Gal. 6:16) While the covenant mediated by Moses included laws written by God on stone, the convenant mediated by Jesus is superior. Its laws are inscribed by God on human hearts. (Read 1 Timothy 2:5; Hebrews 8:10.) Thus, "the Israel of God" is now God&#39;s special property, &#39;a nation producing the fruits&#39; of the Messianic Kingdom.
(Matt 21:43) Members of that spiritual nation are the participants in that new covenant. Still, they are not the only ones to benefit from it. Untold multitudes, even many who at present are asleep in death, will receive everlasting blessings becasue of that superlative covenant.

[uglyandthin]

I believe the WT is absolutely correct on this teaching. Admittedly, though, it is not an easy thing to understand. But let&#39;s try and sort it all out.

It is understood that Jesus holds several offices. He is the king of God&#39;s kingdom. He is the high priest of God&#39;s spiritual temple. And he is the mediator of the new covenant. There are certain powers peculiarly associated with each office. However, in each case Jesus&#39; primary focus is on those who are anointed. He is their king before be becomes the king of the world. He is their high priest before he begins the work of restoring true worship to mankind. And he mediates the new covenant towards the sons of the kingdom before the nations acquire a blessing from the kingdom.

As regards praying in the name of Jesus, it ought to be recognized that nowhere does the Bible specifically teach that praying in the name of Jesus means that Jesus is acting in the capacity of the mediator. That is merely an assumption. Reasoning on the matter though, it is apparent that before Jesus came down to earth people prayed directly to Jehovah and got a hearing without any intercessor or mediator. Even though Moses was the mediator of the law covenant the Jews did not pray to Jehovah in the name of Moses. So, why does God now require those who desire to approach him in prayer to do so in the name of Jesus? It is because God has exalted Jesus to his throne. Jesus has essentially temporarily become God, and of course the reason Jehovah has given him his throne is in order to prove Satan is a liar in the most unequivocal way possible.

Paul said that Jehovah had exalted Jesus to such a high station that every knee will bend to Christ, "every knee" includes those in heaven (the angels and the resurrected sons of God) those on earth, as well as those underground, which is to say that all of the dead who will yet be resurrected back to earth will ultimately have to obey Jesus as their king. Now, because every knee in heaven will bend to Christ does that mean that Jesus is the mediator for the heavenly angels? No, it does not. But they angels are nonetheless subject to Christ. How about those under the ground? Upon their resurrection will Christ become their mediator? No, he will not. By the time the earthly resurrection takes place Christ&#39;s role as the mediator of the new covenant will have already concluded. How do we know that? Because Paul explained to the Corinthians that the evening meal is concluded when Christ arrives. That is what Paul said, that by means of eating and drinking the emblems of the new covenant anointed Christians keep proclaiming the death of the Lord until he arrives. When he arrives he gathers the remaining chosen ones to himself, to heaven that is, and that concludes the new covenant. The nations than inherit the blessings promised to come to them through the seed of Abraham via the survival of the great crowd through the tribulation and the resurrection of the dead back to the earth. Christ will then rule as king over everyone living in heaven and on earth. But it is understood that Jesus will not be mankind&#39;s mediator to God even though all prayer and worship to God comes to Christ.

watchman[/b]


Hi Watchman:

You said in your comment that Jesus temporarily has become God by sitting on Jehovah&#39;s throne or something of that order. How do you become God temporarily? I happen to think that Jesus is the first created being who has become God, but not temporary.
18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him. John 1:18

Now don&#39;t get confused with what I am saying. I do not consider Jesus as part of any three headed monster God, I do not give any credence to the Trinity. It&#39;s just that in our desire to not even touch the unclean thing (the trinity doctrine) we sometimes go too far. I think this is one case that we have gone too far in reducing Jesus position.

The bible tells us that "God is Love". He is equatted with that quality. He does not possess an abundance of Love, he is Love. Since Jesus is the perfect reflection of his Father, I think he has also reached the level where he "is Love" and does not just simply possess an abundance of that quality. Since God is Love, all those that attain to perfect Love become God&#39;s themselves. Is it so farfetched that a Father would want his Son, or for that matter all his Son&#39;s to attain to this level of Love? I think it is not that farfetched and the first example of a Son of God attaining this is Jesus.



⁴³ "YOU heard that it was said, &#39;You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.&#39; ⁴⁴ However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; ⁴⁵ that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. ⁴⁶ For if YOU love those loving YOU, what reward do YOU have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? ⁴⁷ And if YOU greet YOUR brothers only, what extraordinary thing are YOU doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? ⁴⁸ YOU must accordingly be perfect, as YOUR heavenly Father is perfect.

Matthew 5:43-48

Jesus here was talking about the quality of Love. That is the goal that all of us must attain to, those who are spirit annointed as well as those that are not. Jesus was simply the first created being to accomplish this and therefore he is God, not temporarily but forever. Just my take. I might add that Jesus is and always will be subservient to his Father and I also think that Jesus would not have it any other way.

uglyandthin

[watchman]

Hi Watchman:

You said in your comment that Jesus temporarily has become God by sitting on Jehovah&#39;s throne or something of that order. How do you become God temporarily? I happen to think that Jesus is the first created being who has become God, but not temporary.[/b]


Since the Word came into existence eons ago he has been "a god." However, because of his faithfulness under test Jehovah has exalted Jesus to the highest possible position, giving him all power and authority. Jehovah even requires every creature in the universe to acknowledge the authority invested in the Son, to the extent that all creation must obey, yes, they must bow before Christ as if he were God Almighty. However, at the end of the 1,000 years Jesus hands back all of his authority to Jehovah, so in that sense Jesus only sits upon Jehovah&#39;s throne temporarily.

watchman

[uglyandthin]

<div class='quotemain'>Hi Watchman:

You said in your comment that Jesus temporarily has become God by sitting on Jehovah&#39;s throne or something of that order. How do you become God temporarily? I happen to think that Jesus is the first created being who has become God, but not temporary.[/b]


Since the Word came into existence eons ago he has been "a god." However, because of his faithfulness under test Jehovah has exalted Jesus to the highest possible position, giving him all power and authority. Jehovah even requires every creature in the universe to acknowledge the authority invested in the Son, to the extent that all creation must obey, yes, they must bow before Christ as if he were God Almighty. However, at the end of the 1,000 years Jesus hands back all of his authority to Jehovah, so in that sense Jesus only sits upon Jehovah&#39;s throne temporarily.

watchman
[/b][/quote]

Hi Watchman:

Yes, at the end of the 1,000 Kingdom Jesus will hand back this authority to Jehovah because Jesus willingly submits to the will of his Father, but that does not make him any less Loving, but rather more so, and since God is Love, Jesus would no less be God when he does so. He will always be in the bosom position of his Father, that&#39;s where Son&#39;s belong. While teaching Jesus corrected a man for calling him "good" (this was before his death and resurrection) and later after his death he did not council Thomas for acknowledging that he was Thomas&#39; Lord and God. Thomas and Jesus were comfortable with him being God, why can&#39;t we be? It is no slight on his Father to admit this.


¹⁷ And as he was going out on his way, a certain man ran up and fell upon his knees before him and put the question to him: "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit everlasting life?" ¹⁸ Jesus said to him: "Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God. Mark 10



²⁶ Well, eight days later his disciples were again indoors, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, although the doors were locked, and he stood in their midst and said: "May YOU have peace." ²⁷ Next he said to Thomas: "Put your finger here, and see my hands, and take your hand and stick it into my side, and stop being unbelieving but become believing." ²⁸ In answer Thomas said to him: "My Lord and my God!" ²⁹ Jesus said to him: "Because you have seen me have you believed? Happy are those who do not see and yet believe." I believe, do you?


uglyandthin

[Anthony]

Then why is it that we don&#39;t temporarily, pray directly to Jesus?

[Steadfast]

Dear Friends,

The problem with WT theology is that they have prematurely assigned the 144,000 to the final sealing when no such sealing has taken place yet. They even go so far as to say that each one receives his heavenly resurrection at their death, when the Bible does not confirm this in any way. The first resurrection is a one-time event that takes place at the seventh trumpet at the end of the great trib.

The final sealing of the 144,000 takes place at the beginning of the great tribulation at the 6th seal:

Rev 6:12 And when He had opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake. And the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.

Rev 7:3 saying, Do not hurt the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousands having been sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel.

The sons of Israel is a very large group, out of which the 144,000 are chosen to rule with Christ as kings and priests for 1000 years.

Who are these sons of Israel and what happens to those not chosen?

IMO, the New Testament indicates that any baptized follower of Jesus Christ is running the race. Therefore they are entitled to partake of the emblems. When the time comes for the spiritual temple to be cleansed, it is at that point that the choice is made for the ones who will rule with Christ for the Millenium.

So the remaining sons of Israel, are they destroyed for disobedience or chastised for disobedience? Could these remaining sons of Israel be the foundation of the new earth, who join together with the great multitude that emerge from the two witness preaching? This great multitude has also washed their robes white in the blood of the Lamb.

Love,

Steadfast

[diamondiiz]

Before I write this, I want to make sure that those that read this know this is my view and this has nothing to do with those alleging to be anointed or of 144k. Hopefully no one takes offense to what I write.
Let&#39;s consider Christians in the first century. It does appear that by the end of the first century there was quite a number of them. Many, many thousands. If there were more than 144k of them which it does appear so did they believe that they had a different hopes or destinies than some other Christians? Obviously the two classes are not taught in the bible but are alluded to by pulling out scriptures to support one&#39;s theory of 144k as being the only ones attaining the heavenly calling. If these first century Christians were of two classes why doesn&#39;t the bible explain it clearly since many of the letters by Paul were addresses to entire congregations? If there were two classes of Christians at the time obviously these congregations would have had individuals with two separate hopes. Why didn&#39;t Christ teach two class system clearly for those reading the bible to understand it? Neither Christ nor other Christian writers taught the Christian two class system until the 1800s. (I will do the research on when the theory of 144k came about and maybe I will post that answer some time later). That&#39;s also why bible doesn&#39;t speak of some not partaking of the emblems because they appear to have one hope or at least one understanding of what Christ taught. Russell taught 2 classes of heavenly and an earthly classes but is it possible that the 144k is either symbolic or a secondary in nature? The entire Greek Scriptures are talking to Christians without exceptions. Did the first century Chritians understand 144k theology? I don&#39;t think they did since it&#39;s only mentioned in the book of Revelations followed by great crowd to be understood "figuretivly" standing before God in heaven but being litereally on earth?

When Paul wrote 1 Tim 2:5,6 and it appears that if all first century Christians understood that there were two classes during their time he would have written his letter in such a way that Christians in his day would not get confused with who Christ is mediator and for whom he is not. The reason WTS teaches that all first century Christians had a heavenly hope is because there is no two class distinction in the scriptures! And yet history does seem to support that there were far more Christians in the first century than WTS claims. That is also why they needed to introduce the apostasy occurring right away around the end of the apostles as if all the thousand of Christians somehow fell under the trap of apostasy and lost their heavenly hope or they never were blessed with it in the first place? That doesn&#39;t make sense either. History doesn&#39;t support that all Christians turned their backs on the teachings of Christ and apostles in one moment but the falsehoods evolved just as 144k theory evolved - over time. If God had a problem choosing Christians with some false doctrinal understanding in the first century why would He not have a similar problem choosing Christians today with false doctrines to have a heavenly calling, and yet we are taught that&#39;s exactly what Jehovah did in our time. Speaking of our time, how do we know we are close to the end? We are just assuming that we are because of the Advent movement of the 1800s and our association with WTS the offshoot of that movement. We came to believe that we were in the last days since 1914 and when we realized that 1914 is a fraud we still somehow hold on to the idea that we must be close to Armageddon. I hope we are, but really our basis of believing that the end is near, is because of our association with WTS and what they were ramming down our throats! If we are to seek Christ&#39;s approval we are to live Christian lives no matter when the end is but also staying awake knowing that Christ will arrive as a thief in a night. The signs that Jesus spoke of were signs that would lead people to understand that his coming is near and IMO the last days that Paul spoke about would also indicate that the world was coming to it&#39;s conclusion before Christ&#39;s arrival. Taking those we may assume that we may be in the last days of the days that we are living are getting increasingly in appearance to the last days described by Christ and the Christian writers and yet last days don&#39;t need a special date where they commence.

So praying in Christ&#39;s name was to show that we were putting faith in Jesus, God&#39;s only begotten son and he became our link between Jehovah since he sacrificed his life on our behalf. Jesus is our link to God as our mediator. Jesus ended the Jewish way of worship which they didn&#39;t need a link between themselves and God but were required numerous sacrifices to symbolize their sinful ways and a need for redemption. Christ accomplished that and because doing so we have him as our link to God and our link to our sins being forgiven. That is how I understand Christ&#39;s role between men and God. If I am wrong so be it but I&#39;m not going to go try to pursue a doctrine that isn&#39;t taught in the bible but was developed and supported by pulling scripture to support the idea in a similar matter the trinity was. If someone views that my understanding of what bible teaches on Christ&#39;s role as a mediator of men and God is wrong so be it, I will stick with what the bible says and won&#39;t go into so called "deeper" understand which isn&#39;t so clearly defined in our spiritual hand book without a need of some "grander" instructor pointing that to us.

[Jinnvisible]

Perhaps what is pertinent here is not the numbers themselves rather the possiblillity of varying estimates.</span>

"It is impossible to determine the number of Christians throughout the empire in this earliest formative period or how quickly it caught hold, but Paul&#39;s missions changed the scope from one of a Jewish sect to a Gentile cult."

<span style="font-family:Times New Roman">http://www.unrv.com/culture/christianity-history.php

[Utuna]

"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton</span>

[watchman]

Then why is it that we don&#39;t temporarily, pray directly to Jesus?[/b]

It is understood that when Jesus hands the kingdom back over to Jehovah at the end of the thousand year reign, when Jehovah finally becomes all things to everyone and Jesus also subjects himself to Jehovah, at that point no one will any longer pray to Jehovah in the name of Jesus.

watchman

[James]

The apostle Paul declares that there is "one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all"—for both Jews and Gentiles. (1Ti 2:5, 6)
"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" - 1Tim 2:5 English standard[/b]



Then why is it that we don&#39;t temporarily, pray directly to Jesus?[/b]

Is that not the answer? Jesus is Jehovahs&#39; ambassador.

James

[Rogue]

Before I write this, I want to make sure that those that read this know this is my view and this has nothing to do with those alleging to be anointed or of 144k. Hopefully no one takes offense to what I write.
Let&#39;s consider Christians in the first century. It does appear that by the end of the first century there was quite a number of them. Many, many thousands. If there were more than 144k of them which it does appear so did they believe that they had a different hopes or destinies than some other Christians? Obviously the two classes are not taught in the bible but are alluded to by pulling out scriptures to support one&#39;s theory of 144k as being the only ones attaining the heavenly calling. If these first century Christians were of two classes why doesn&#39;t the bible explain it clearly since many of the letters by Paul were addresses to entire congregations? If there were two classes of Christians at the time obviously these congregations would have had individuals with two separate hopes. Why didn&#39;t Christ teach two class system clearly for those reading the bible to understand it? Neither Christ nor other Christian writers taught the Christian two class system until the 1800s. (I will do the research on when the theory of 144k came about and maybe I will post that answer some time later). That&#39;s also why bible doesn&#39;t speak of some not partaking of the emblems because they appear to have one hope or at least one understanding of what Christ taught. Russell taught 2 classes of heavenly and an earthly classes but is it possible that the 144k is either symbolic or a secondary in nature? The entire Greek Scriptures are talking to Christians without exceptions. Did the first century Chritians understand 144k theology? I don&#39;t think they did since it&#39;s only mentioned in the book of Revelations followed by great crowd to be understood "figuretivly" standing before God in heaven but being litereally on earth?

When Paul wrote 1 Tim 2:5,6 and it appears that if all first century Christians understood that there were two classes during their time he would have written his letter in such a way that Christians in his day would not get confused with who Christ is mediator and for whom he is not. The reason WTS teaches that all first century Christians had a heavenly hope is because there is no two class distinction in the scriptures! And yet history does seem to support that there were far more Christians in the first century than WTS claims. That is also why they needed to introduce the apostasy occurring right away around the end of the apostles as if all the thousand of Christians somehow fell under the trap of apostasy and lost their heavenly hope or they never were blessed with it in the first place? That doesn&#39;t make sense either. History doesn&#39;t support that all Christians turned their backs on the teachings of Christ and apostles in one moment but the falsehoods evolved just as 144k theory evolved - over time. If God had a problem choosing Christians with some false doctrinal understanding in the first century why would He not have a similar problem choosing Christians today with false doctrines to have a heavenly calling, and yet we are taught that&#39;s exactly what Jehovah did in our time. Speaking of our time, how do we know we are close to the end? We are just assuming that we are because of the Advent movement of the 1800s and our association with WTS the offshoot of that movement. We came to believe that we were in the last days since 1914 and when we realized that 1914 is a fraud we still somehow hold on to the idea that we must be close to Armageddon. I hope we are, but really our basis of believing that the end is near, is because of our association with WTS and what they were ramming down our throats! If we are to seek Christ&#39;s approval we are to live Christian lives no matter when the end is but also staying awake knowing that Christ will arrive as a thief in a night. The signs that Jesus spoke of were signs that would lead people to understand that his coming is near and IMO the last days that Paul spoke about would also indicate that the world was coming to it&#39;s conclusion before Christ&#39;s arrival. Taking those we may assume that we may be in the last days of the days that we are living are getting increasingly in appearance to the last days described by Christ and the Christian writers and yet last days don&#39;t need a special date where they commence.

So praying in Christ&#39;s name was to show that we were putting faith in Jesus, God&#39;s only begotten son and he became our link between Jehovah since he sacrificed his life on our behalf. Jesus is our link to God as our mediator. Jesus ended the Jewish way of worship which they didn&#39;t need a link between themselves and God but were required numerous sacrifices to symbolize their sinful ways and a need for redemption. Christ accomplished that and because doing so we have him as our link to God and our link to our sins being forgiven. That is how I understand Christ&#39;s role between men and God. If I am wrong so be it but I&#39;m not going to go try to pursue a doctrine that isn&#39;t taught in the bible but was developed and supported by pulling scripture to support the idea in a similar matter the trinity was. If someone views that my understanding of what bible teaches on Christ&#39;s role as a mediator of men and God is wrong so be it, I will stick with what the bible says and won&#39;t go into so called "deeper" understand which isn&#39;t so clearly defined in our spiritual hand book without a need of some "grander" instructor pointing that to us.[/b]


Hi there brother (I won&#39;t be mistaking u for a sister again :P:P)
I think you make some good points, aspecialy about the New Testament not mentioning two classes, except for revelations. I also wonder if the first century christians realy had the same idea as we have about the 144000... u are also right that our doctrines about these things are mainly based on assumptions, rather than plan biblical facts. This means that our current view could very well be true, but it could also very well not be true.

As far as Christ being the Mediator for only the 144000, I think we have discussed this a few times before, and I get the vibe that more and more people on the board start to get the feeling that it just doesn&#39;t make sense to say that Christ is only Mediator for the 144000, just like it doesn&#39;t make sense to say that the Israel Gods is ONLY made up by the annointed. But I think the WT-indoctrination still has a stronger hold on the most of us than we would like to think...

I do wonder what would happen to the e-watchman standpoint about this matter if the Society received New Light about this subject and changed their view on Christ as the Mediator for just the 144000... just a thought...

[Utuna]

"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton </span>

[Utuna]

"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton </span>

[Rogue]

If the WT is wrong, I&#39;m ok to admit it if the proofs come from the Bible. But my question is: What does the Bible say about this issue?

I don&#39;t want the WT to be right, I just want the truth!

---------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton [/b]


Hi Utana,
Dear brother, u have hit the nail on the head... as U don&#39;t want the WT to be right neccessarely, I don&#39;t neccesseraly want them to be wrong, they certainly are right on some, or maybe many, points... but like u, I want the truth... I am still reading and re-reading the Bible to find out exactely what it does (and does not) say about the annointed, Jesus as Mediator and the New Convenant. At the moment, I feel that there is a lot more evidence that points in another direction than the WT has taken, at least I&#39;m convinced there is not enough evidence for the standpoint they shove down their follower&#39;s throaths, actualy if u realy read what they say, it is mostly "could", "may", "most likely" and other indication of assumption... but they still expect their followers to believe and teach it as hard facts!There is no room for discussion or input from anyone outside the GB, even though there are so many wonderfull br/s and sr/s that have such spiritual insight and wisdom... just imagine what knowledge we could have as JW&#39;s if we were alowed to discuss things, share our thoughts, we could probably answer so much more questions! I think it is such a shame... Anyway, I&#39;m not saying that I am totaly convinced about a certain take on the issues I mentioned before, but I&#39;m open minded (not meaning: open minded to all sorts of crap sorta speak, but open minded because I don&#39;t want ideas of man to influence my understanding of what Jehovah has to tell me trough the Scriptures, I want to make sure I&#39;m not hang up on some kind of explanation that maybe keeps me from understanding what Jehovah has to say in the Bible)... and I think there are a lot of interesting things to say about it... I won&#39;t dwell on it though, because I&#39;m at risq of violating the board regulations...

U can PM me if u want to discuss it further! :)

[truthseeker]

<div class='quotemain'> We can be certain there is an earthly class destine to inherit the earth other wise Jehovah’s original purpose would be thwarted. Making sense of this by using scripture has always been a challenge for me especially in light that the NT is for all intents and purposes written for the bride class under the convent instituted by Christ.

But if one reasons that Jehovah is a god of order he would always have the horse before the cart. In other words before the earthly class takes front and center in prominence and understanding, Jehovah thru his Christ establishes, seals, has firmly placed the means to govern and subjugate this imperfect stiff necked imperfect earthly class. I think Utuna makes a good point in saying things regarding the earthly class will become clear later, by necessity when Jesus directs his attention to the nations after the sealing of his co rulers. (first things first

Truthseeker

[TheMdC]

I&#39;m convinced there is not enough evidence for the standpoint they shove down their follower&#39;s throaths, actualy if u realy read what they say, it is mostly "could", "may", "most likely" and other indication of assumption... but they still expect their followers to believe and teach it as hard facts![/b]

So do you believe that the use of "could&#39;, "may", etc. are sort of escape clauses built in so that when they are found to be wrong, they have a built in trapdoor to jump through? Why use them if they would really prefer dogma?

I&#39;m more of the belief that the WTS&#39;s use of such clauses indicates that they know they don&#39;t really know what they&#39;re talking about on those issues but had to come up with something in order to answer the inevitable questions that would arise on the topic. It may even be that a faithful brother (or brothers) on the writing staff puts those things in there to protect the flock from the more dogmatic members and their ideas.

[Aside: As I type this, Jethro Tull&#39;s "Hymn 43" just came on the radio. Interesting...]

[elihu]

i have never been a baptised JW but i do believe that christs mediation is directly to the 144k

when paul speaks of this in detail in his letter to the romans he only speaks of 1 resurrection
"for if we have been united to gether in his likeness we also shall be in the likeness of his resurrection"
romans6:5

in the context of pauls letter he is speaking to those who have the spirit of Christ
"for as many as are led by the spirit of God, these are sons of God
for you did not recieve the spirit of bondage again to fear but you recieved the spirit of adoption by whom we cry out "ABBA Father"

however paul does speak a little about the effect of the sons bought by the ransom
"for the earnest expectation eagarly awaits for the revealing of the sons of God"

and then he says a truly amazing thing

"because the creation itself will ALSO BE DELIVERED from the bondage of CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God"

i have never been a baptised JW and when they taught me this teaching it made absolute sense to me and it still does

when i look at all other christian denominations they teach that all their flock are sons of God
and so they have to teach that all are heavenly bound
there is no room in their doctrine for the kingdom of God ruling over the earth
the only ones that i am aware of who teach about the Kingdom are the witnesess.

however i think where it has all gone wrong is by closing the door to the annointed class.
this falsehood will be exposed when Christ returns and appoints the good slave and the eleventh hour workers are employed


elihu

[Utuna]

---------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Utuna]

"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton</span>

[diamondiiz]

Jinvisible: I think you brought out the point of someone pointing to only about 10,000 Christians in the first century which I&#39;m sorry but just from bible alone I can point to at least 20,000 that is bare minimum.
Acts 21:20 - "After hearing this they began to glorify God, and they said to him: “You behold, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews; and they are all zealous for the Law
"
That word there literally is translated "tens of thousands" and "many ten thousand" could mean I would say at least 20k but many to me would indicate lot more than 20,000! We know of 5,000 and 3,000 that got baptized. So 10,000 in the first century to me just doesn&#39;t fly. Plus why would the jews loose sleep over the fact there there were only 10,000 Christians in the first century? Obviously the bible implies that the growth of converts to follow Christ was great.

Earthy class: I understand that bible teaches that there is going to be an earthly resurrection and that is not what I refer to as an earthly class when I wrote earlier. What I pointed out is that
1. Did first century Christians know that they would have a 2 class hope.
If they understood that were all early Christians going to heaven as is appearant for the scriptures?

2. Where in Christian scriptures is that 2 tier system?
If the first century Christians knew that some of their brothers would be living on earth why didn&#39;t Christ clearly point that out or why didn&#39;t Paul put that in writing so Jesus&#39; followers would have a better understanding of their destinies?

3. If they didn&#39;t know of earthly Christian class than when were we enlightened on the matter? During the time when people were pointing to 1844 or 1874 as Christ&#39;s return? Was it the same time when pyramid of giza was taught as God&#39;s witness in stone? hmmm

This takes us to 144k. Symbolic or literal? When did this theory originate? As I stated in a post earlier I haven&#39;t done the research on the history of this doctrine yet so I can&#39;t say for sure but if I was going to guess I would say some time in the 1800s.

Russell taught 2 different classes of heavenly Christians and an earthly class. Once again, could one argue for this sort of teaching? If one can claim that only 144k go to heaven and why not two classes? 144k is only found in book of symbolism and that&#39;s where someone drew the idea that has to be literal while at the same time the great crowd mentions litereally verses below the number are earthly while standing before God&#39;s throne? And all the while using the three instances of 144k in the Rev. book to substanciate the fact that has to be literal number? To add support they took "Little flock" scripture and based the entire doctrine on that! Maybe it&#39;s right but really using Greek Scripture there is stronger argument that all Christians go to heaven. And I&#39;m not saying that all are, but what I am saying is that Christian scriptures don&#39;t appear to point to two classes of Christians and separate these two classes as to how Christ&#39;s death affected these. To me personally, Jesus died for all mankind and we can be saved only through faith in Jesus. He is our mediator between God and no other and that is why we need to pray in Christ&#39;s name as a show of faith.

So if there is a special group of Christians will they have greater benefit of Christ&#39;s death? Or just a different benefit but Christ would be a mediator of theirs as well as all others. Something to think about. And a person can come to their own conclusion since the bible is vague on the whole 2 class Christian tier system. So if you believe that only 144k go to heaven that is a personal decision and really I don&#39;t think it&#39;s right to claim that as only true understanding of the Christian scriptures. We can debate that there is an earthly class and it makes sense and all, which is fine but what we&#39;re doing is assuming that is the logical understanding and we are not getting this from the scriptures as a definite clear teaching.

Also, someone brought out WTS using certain words when writing doctrine. Of course they do. Look at how they point to 1914 and Russell. If I remember correctly they use a word "thought" as if Russell initially thought 1874 was Christ&#39;s return but that statement would make a reader imply that Russell and early bible students changed their minds later. But we all know that Russell didn&#39;t think 1874 was the second coming he believed it until his death and taught it. Using a word "thought" is deceptive since the reader without accurate knowledge would simply assume that Russell at first thought 1874 was the date but later realized that 1914 was the true coming of Christ. Like wise with other teaching they will use certain words so they can weasel themselves out if questioned about it. I think there is a recent WT which points that the bible students realized in 1925 that Christ presently sat on his throne in 1914. Something to that effect. Once again true or not? It&#39;s true because they began to teach in 1925 that Jesus presented himself as king of the kingdom, BUT they still believed until late 1920s or early 1930s that Jesus returned for the second time in 1874 and not in 1914. It&#39;s a play on words and if questioned they will just reply that what they wrote was correct......But in fact most JWs won&#39;t know any different. In other words it&#39;s deceptive use of words to make a reader assume something that they&#39;re saying when in fact they talking about something else and unless a reader reads carefully while meditating on detail in the writing the reader will not comprehand the true statement being made.

[Jinnvisible]

Jinvisible: I think you brought out the point of someone pointing to only about 10,000 Christians in the first century which I&#39;m sorry but just from bible alone I can point to at least 20,000 that is bare minimum.

Acts 21:20 - "After hearing this they began to glorify God, and they said to him: "You behold, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews; and they are all zealous for the Law[/b]

<span style="color:#000000"><span style="font-family:Garamond">So the book of Acts is full of unusual and remarkable events which if used as a model for the typical could be hugely misleading.</span>

[diamondiiz]

Acts 4:1-4
"Now while the [two] were speaking to the people, the chief priests and the captain of the temple and the Sadducees came upon them, being annoyed because they were teaching the people and were plainly declaring the resurrection from the dead in the case of Jesus; and they laid their hands upon them and put them in custody till the next day, for it was already evening. However, many of those who had listened to the speech believed, and the number of the men became about five thousand."
- are we to assume that these 5000 only believed but didn&#39;t follow through in become Christians?


"ten thousand" -
μυρίας
murias
moo-ree&#39;-as
From G3463; a ten thousand; by extension a “myriad” or indefinite number: - ten thousand.

other occurrences of the word:

Luke 12:1 - "12 In the meantime, when the crowd had gathered together in so many thousands that they were stepping upon one another, he started out by saying first to his disciples: “Watch out for the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy"

Acts 19:19 - "Indeed, quite a number of those who practiced magical arts brought their books together and burned them up before everybody. And they calculated together the prices of them and found them worth fifty thousand (pente murias) pieces of silver."

Acts 21:20 - "After hearing this they began to glorify God, and they said to him: “You behold, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews; and they are all zealous for the Law"

Heb 12:22 = "But YOU have approached a Mount Zion and a city of [the] living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels"

Jude 1:14 - "Yes, the seventh one [in line] from Adam, E′noch, prophesied also regarding them, when he said: “Look! Jehovah came with his holy myriads"

Rev 5:11 - "And I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders, and the number of them was myriads of myriads (murias murias) and thousands of thousands"

Rev 9:16 - "16 And the number of the armies of cavalry was two myriads of myriads (duo murias murias) : I heard the number of them."

I used e-Sword to search out all greek words for "ten thousand" murias so a reader can use their own discretion as to Acts 21:20 implies.

[truthseeker]

<span style="font-family:Times New Roman"> Also Jesus stated in the sermon on the mount that the meek will inherit the earth, could he have been referring directly to those he was addressing at that moment in time and many millions to come? Earthly

truthseeker

[FutureMan]

<div class='quotemain'><span style="font-family:Times New Roman">Hello Truthseeker, here is a link to an article that might shed some light on how many Christians were martyred for their faith over the last 2000 years or so.
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/christian-persecution.html

From FutureMan.

[Jinnvisible]

1769 at any one time.
[/u]
However Christs parable of the lamp light oil and the brides has him dismissing 50% of them. This would actually double all the figures.
</span></span></span>

[Jinnvisible]

1. Did first century Christians know that they would have a 2 class hope. If they understood that were all early Christians going to heaven as is appearant for the scriptures?[/b]

<span style="font-family:Garamond">The Jews believed in and earthly resurrection. Some doubted even that. Jesus proved it with Jairuses daughter and Lazarus.

[FutureMan]

<div class='quotemain'>1. Did first century Christians know that they would have a 2 class hope. If they understood that were all early Christians going to heaven as is appearant for the scriptures?[/b]

<span style="font-family:Garamond">Perhaps the answer is that they would all have liked the privilege of being with Jesus in heaven and so they all aspired to this hope, but in reality perhaps only a few would be chosen out of each era. Logic dictates that.

From FutureMan

[Jinnvisible]

<div class='quotemain'>Thats interesting, probably something in that.

During the middle 18 centuries or so of the Great Apostasy the bible was hidden away from the people most of them being illiterate anyway. Anyone in the established Church (a medeval Roman catholic monk for instance) would have had to hide thier belief. Acting covertly, just as there is no official preaching territory in china but there actually are witnesses there.

Reciving an annointing would require understanding the difference between who Jehovah God was and who Jesus was. That was not tolerated due to the trinity doctrine.
</span>

[truthseeker]

great discusion evryone, thanks for open minds!

truseeker

[diamondiiz]

1769 at any one time.
[/u]
However Christs parable of the lamp light oil and the brides has him dismissing 50% of them. This would actually double all the figures.
</span></span></span>
[/b][/quote]

[truthseeker]

Sincerely Truthseeker

[Utuna]

"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton</span>

[Jinnvisible]

Neither do I believe that there are two `classes` of Christians, There are two destinations yet that does not incur a different `classification` of faith. Its just another unhelpful language pitfall by the beloved Watchtower.

[TheMdC]

Neither do I believe that there are two `classes` of Christians, There are two destinations yet that does not incur a different `classification` of faith. Its just another unhelpful language pitfall by the beloved Watchtower.[/font][/b]

Excellent points.

"Class" is an unfortunate word in English as it has connotations of rank. There is no such rank among humans. Those with heavenly hope are not ruling while they are men on earth. Paul counseled strongly against them doing such. (1Cor 4:8)
[Note: By the way, Watchman, you have the above scripture attributed to 1Corinthians chapter 3, in your "first will be last essay." May want to check that.]

We are all equal at present. The anointed will hold the kingly and priestly role for 1000 years after their resurrection, but before and after that time, we&#39;re beholden only to Jehovah and Jesus Christ.

How many of them are there? I frankly don&#39;t worry about it much because it isn&#39;t my hope. Literal 144k or figurative unknown number, I have faith that they will be chosen appropriately and will accomplish their heavenly tasks perfectly as assigned. In the meantime they&#39;re all just as imperfect as you and I. I have long believed this and it has been confirmed to me in recent years. A buddy of mine a few years younger than me just started partaking a short time ago. He was just a regular brother before and he still is. I think it&#39;s great that he&#39;s become anointed because he&#39;s a good guy and because it&#39;s made people in the congregation and surrounding circuit think about things in perhaps a bit of a new light.

BTW, has anyone tried the new KFC grilled chicken? It&#39;s not bad.

[Eyes & Ears]

<div class='quotemain'>BTW, has anyone tried the new KFC grilled chicken? It&#39;s not bad.
[/b][/b]


No I have not tried it yet, but after I get off the floor from laughing because you made my computer chair tip over MDC, I may just have to take a ride over to KFC and try it. That statement just struck me funny after reading this serious thread. :applaudit: :186:

Man oh Man I really enjoy this site. :icon_razz:

E & E

[TheMdC]

The day we lose our sense of humor is the day the wolves come out of the walls.

[tortas]

blonde ; 911, my neighbors house is on fire!!!

911; okay, maam, how do we get there?


blonde: DUH , in a big red fire truck !!

[James]

blonde ; 911, my neighbors house is on fire!!!

911; okay, maam, how do we get there?


blonde: DUH , in a big red fire truck !![/b]

Ha, Ha, Ha.

Or, "Duh, they are right next door to me!!!

James

[diamondiiz]

When a person becomes religious that individual takes up believes taught by the leaders. There is an argument for 144k as the only group of Christians as there is an argument for the opposite to be true. One can logically push 144k dogma as well as some can push similar but different doctrine taught by Russell and yet another teaching brought forth by most of the churches. One may reason that why would God resurrect more than144k to heaven? One can say that most people want to live on earth. For one we don&#39;t understand what God&#39;s plan is besides what it in black and white in the bible. There are huge amounts of things in the bible that can be argued for or against and these gray areas form doctrines taught by men and people who need religion follow one leader or another.

I wish bible was plain and simple to understand to know the facts without trying to second guess what God is saying. As I left WTS and now have finally DA myself I am reexamining the teachings and those that are not clear about I will leave them as not essential to my beliefs. What we definitely know from the bible is that

there will be a heavenly resurrection
and there will be many inheriting the earth

How this will take place we are assuming to understand and if one needs a definite answer to such a question one is needing religion because after all that&#39;s how sects form when groups of people follow a certain teaching which they agree to and thus claim to have the truth.

Jinnvisible, you stated that most people today want to live on earth. What has changed since 100, 500 or 1000 years ago? Years ago, people were more fanatically indoctrinated by religions they followed and were taught that they&#39;re going to heaven or hell - possibly pergatory. Well if those were my only options I think I would tell you I&#39;m going to heaven too. Today, situation has changed and people are more liberal and religion is slowly becoming something people don&#39;t want or care for. So when free thinking takes place more people will say they want to live on earth because the religous chains of slavery are not there to scare them to follow the line of a religious leader. After all who wants to die? Jarzecz got a stroke, why did they help the men? Hell, thay should have told him have a good trip to heaven. WTS is ruling in a same manner that church of Rome had centuries ago and some of us take certain teachings as facts when in fact should be viewed as only possibilities. How often does it happen that WTS doesn&#39;t have an answer? All religions have all the answers, all the time :)

You assume that people burned alive believed in trinity. Where is the proof what these people believed? They were thought to be heretics against the state or church and were killed. I don&#39;t see their writings telling me why they died or that they died because they all were hard core trinitarians. That&#39;s why you fight so hard to prove that there weren&#39;t that many true Christians over the last 1800 years. Is it so hard to say I don&#39;t have an answer to how many people really were of qualities that would merit their resurrection of a higher rank than others may? I may not have these answers and I will admit that because bible isn&#39;t clear on the fact as to who goes to heaven and by what criteria these people will be judged and on what belief basis do these people gain God&#39;s approval to be members of Christ&#39;s bride.

When trinity doctrine was established, it happened over centuries and for Rome to want to merge religions of the day, one can assume there were great many who professed to be Christians. Just as holy spirit didn&#39;t originally become part of a godhead neither can one say that all who believed in Christ needed to follow one leader&#39;s ideology that Christ was of equal status as Jehovah when trinity took form and shape.

In my opinion I will leave the number that are going to heaven as an unknown and leave that in hands of God. I would definitly not feel confortable to defent 144k as if it was written in stone. Realistically, if we need to make assumption what bible teaches we can but that doesn&#39;t make our interpretation of vague scriptures a true doctrinal understanding of what God, Christ or apostles were saying. To take a stand on something of that nature may hinder us at some point when we argue something that can&#39;t be based as a fact. Consider what Russell taught and how one can argue that point of two heavenly classes :) People have many interesting ideas about what the bible really says but really do they have the truth or just an illusion of truth?
On that note I will end this debate since it&#39;s not going to go anywheres anyway as I still view Christ as my mediator between God. And if someone doesn&#39;t so be it.

[truthseeker]

Dimondiiz ---
I wish bible was plain and simple to understand to know the facts without trying to second guess what God is saying. As I left WTS and now have finally DA myself I am reexamining the teachings and those that are not clear about I will leave them as not essential to my beliefs. What we definitely know from the bible is that

there will be a heavenly resurrection
and there will be many inheriting the earth

How this will take place we are assuming to understand and if one needs a definite answer to such a question one is needing religion because after all that&#39;s how sects form when groups of people follow a certain teaching which they agree to and thus claim to have the truth.

<span style="font-family:Times New Roman">Love Truthseeker </span>

[Jinnvisible]

When a person becomes religious that individual takes up believes taught by the leaders. There is an argument for 144k as the only group of Christians as there is an argument for the opposite to be true. One can logically push 144k dogma as well as some can push similar but different doctrine taught by Russell and yet another teaching brought forth by most of the churches. One may reason that why would God resurrect more than144k to heaven? One can say that most people want to live on earth.[/b]

What ever you think about Christ is a possitive way I`m sure is a good thing,. I appologise for adding to any frustration.

[ilovethebible]

Mediator between God and Men (1 Timothy 2:5)

The context of Paul&#39;s words from verses 1-4 clearly shows that "men" here means all mankind. Notice verses 1 and 2 - Paul asks that we pray for all sorts of men.

"I therefore exhort, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, offerings of thanks, be made concerning all sorts of men (lit. "all men,") 2 concerning kings and all those who are in high station; in order that we may go on leading a calm and quiet life with full godly devotion and seriousness.

This raises a question - is it really acceptable to pray for all humans, since most do not accept God and Christ? Should we really give "offerings of thanks" for these people? Is that really acceptable? Paul&#39;s answer comes in the next verse, verse 3.

This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God,

Why is it fine and acceptable, to pray for such people, who have not accepted Christ, who do not know God, who might even lead immoral, dissolute lives? People Paul knew, "kings" and "those in high station" like Herod Agrippa, Felix? In verse 4, Paul gives the answer.

4 whose will is that all sorts of men (lit. "all men") should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth.

In verse 5, he continues, showing what God has done to make his "will" possible.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—this is what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times.

Since Christ is a corresponding ransom for all mankind, it is fine and acceptable to pray for all men. Paul&#39;s usage of the expression "one God" is also telling. Paul shows Jehovah is the God and Creator of all mankind, not solely the Christians he is writing to. Christians should not make the same mistake the Jews do, considering Jehovah to be their God, but not of the whole world.

Paul is not talking about Christ being mediator of solely the 144,000 - that would work against the logic of the whole argument he has just made, and the context of his statement. Jesus is the mediator between all mankind and Jehovah. Of which covenant? The new covenant - but it is important to understand the new covenant is not restricted to the 144,000 - rather it applies to all mankind. This can be discussed in another post.

The 144,000 are "ministers of the new covenant" made with all mankind, just like Aaron and his sons were the ministers of the old covenant made with all Israel. (2 Corinthians 3:6) And just as Israel was baptized into Moses and later entered into the Law covenant (old covenant), people of all mankind enter into the new covenant when they accept Christ, are baptized in water, thus baptized into Christ, identifying with his death, burial and resurrection. The purpose of the new covenant is clearly stated – the forgiveness of sins of all mankind. (Luke 22:20, Matthew 26:28) The new covenant is different to the covenant for the kingdom that Jesus makes in Luke 22:29, 30 in which the 144,000 are kings and priests with Christ.

It might be said, but didn&#39;t Jehovah say He would make the new covenant with the house of Judah and the house of Israel? (Jeremiah 31:31-33) As said above, this is a matter for another post.

iltb

[ACLJ]

Mediator between God and Men (1 Timothy 2:5)

The context of Paul&#39;s words from verses 1-4 clearly shows that "men" here means all mankind. Notice verses 1 and 2 - Paul asks that we pray for all sorts of men.

"I therefore exhort, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, offerings of thanks, be made concerning all sorts of men (lit. "all men,") 2 concerning kings and all those who are in high station; in order that we may go on leading a calm and quiet life with full godly devotion and seriousness.

This raises a question - is it really acceptable to pray for all humans, since most do not accept God and Christ? Should we really give "offerings of thanks" for these people? Is that really acceptable? Paul&#39;s answer comes in the next verse, verse 3.

This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God,

Why is it fine and acceptable, to pray for such people, who have not accepted Christ, who do not know God, who might even lead immoral, dissolute lives? People Paul knew, "kings" and "those in high station" like Herod Agrippa, Felix? In verse 4, Paul gives the answer.

4 whose will is that all sorts of men (lit. "all men") should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth.

In verse 5, he continues, showing what God has done to make his "will" possible.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—this is what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times.

Since Christ is a corresponding ransom for all mankind, it is fine and acceptable to pray for all men. Paul&#39;s usage of the expression "one God" is also telling. Paul shows Jehovah is the God and Creator of all mankind, not solely the Christians he is writing to. Christians should not make the same mistake the Jews do, considering Jehovah to be their God, but not of the whole world.

Paul is not talking about Christ being mediator of solely the 144,000 - that would work against the logic of the whole argument he has just made, and the context of his statement. Jesus is the mediator between all mankind and Jehovah. Of which covenant? The new covenant - but it is important to understand the new covenant is not restricted to the 144,000 - rather it applies to all mankind. This can be discussed in another post.

The 144,000 are "ministers of the new covenant" made with all mankind, just like Aaron and his sons were the ministers of the old covenant made with all Israel. (2 Corinthians 3:6) And just as Israel was baptized into Moses and later entered into the Law covenant (old covenant), people of all mankind enter into the new covenant when they accept Christ, are baptized in water, thus baptized into Christ, identifying with his death, burial and resurrection. The purpose of the new covenant is clearly stated – the forgiveness of sins of all mankind. (Luke 22:20, Matthew 26:28) The new covenant is different to the covenant for the kingdom that Jesus makes in Luke 22:29, 30 in which the 144,000 are kings and priests with Christ.

It might be said, but didn&#39;t Jehovah say He would make the new covenant with the house of Judah and the house of Israel? (Jeremiah 31:31-33) As said above, this is a matter for another post.

iltb[/b]

As crystal!
ACLJ

[Utuna]

<div class='quotemain'>"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton</span>

[watchman]

Mediator between God and Men (1 Timothy 2:5)

The context of Paul&#39;s words from verses 1-4 clearly shows that "men" here means all mankind. Notice verses 1 and 2 - Paul asks that we pray for all sorts of men.[/b]

Interesting. So, that would include atheists, Muslims, agnostics, new agers and warlocks, right? I wonder if Osama bin Laden knows he is in a new covenant with Jehovah. LOL

Watchman

[ACLJ]

<div class='quotemain'>Mediator between God and Men (1 Timothy 2:5)

The context of Paul&#39;s words from verses 1-4 clearly shows that "men" here means all mankind. Notice verses 1 and 2 - Paul asks that we pray for all sorts of men.[/b]

Interesting. So, that would include atheists, Muslims, agnostics, new agers and warlocks, right? I wonder if Osama bin Laden knows he is in a new covenant with Jehovah. LOL

Watchman
[/b][/quote]

Hi Watchman,
I detect from the above that you feel you are more deserving than these ones?
ACLJ

[Jeshurun]

every man and woman on earth has the same potential... being chosen is another story

love,
jesh

[Anthony]

<span style="font-family:Arial">It does include atheists, Muslims, agnostics, new agers and warlocks provided they come to an accurate knowledge of truth and in so doing accepting Christ, and are baptized in water, thus baptized into Christ, identifying with his death, burial and resurrection. They then would enter into the new covenant.

[watchman]

Hi Watchman,
I detect from the above that you feel you are more deserving than these ones?
ACLJ[/b]

No. I was just making a light hearted comment to underscore how idiotic the notion is that all of mankind are in the new covenant with God, that&#39;s all.

watchman

[Barnabas]

I must agree with ACLJ, Anthony, and ILTB. It seems to from Paul&#39;s words in 2Co 5:18,19 that "Muslims", "Atheists", "Warlocks", and "Osama Bin Laden" are included.

<span style="font-family:Franklin Gothic Medium">18 But all things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of the reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was by means of Christ reconciling a world to himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses, and he committed the word of the reconciliation to us.</span>

The "us" are the first fruits. The 144,000 had the "word of the reconciliation" "committed" to them - to tell "the world", people like "Osama Bin Laden", "warlocks", "Muslims", and "atheists" that Jehovah, in his glorious undeserved kindness, has "reconciled the world to himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses." The 144,000, the "ministers of the new covenant" are to openly declare this "good news" so all people can accept Christ in faith, be baptized, and be reconciled to God.

[watchman]

I must agree with ACLJ, Anthony, and ILTB. It seems to from Paul&#39;s words in 2Co 5:18,19 that "Muslims", "Atheists", "Warlocks", and "Osama Bin Laden" are included.

<span style="font-family:Franklin Gothic Medium">18 But all things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of the reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was by means of Christ reconciling a world to himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses, and he committed the word of the reconciliation to us.</span>

The "us" are the first fruits. The 144,000 had the "word of the reconciliation" "committed" to them - to tell "the world", people like "Osama Bin Laden", "warlocks", "Muslims", and "atheists" that Jehovah, in his glorious undeserved kindness, has "reconciled the world to himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses." The 144,000, the "ministers of the new covenant" are to openly declare this "good news" so all people can accept Christ in faith, be baptized, and be reconciled to God.[/b]

You are confusing the ransom with the new covenant. Admittedly it is a common mistake.

watchman

[Jinnvisible]

The Revelation vision wasn`t known untill the very end of the first century. Many of those baptised with holy spirit at pentecost would have already been dead by then.

Under the current WTBTS theology...

This means that many thousands of believers, perhaps most of the members of the congregations written about in the epistles. The Corinthians, Ephesians, Thessalonians, many who are written about would have never even heard of the Revelation vision.

They had a heavenly hope yet they never heard of 144 000 or any of that. It wasn`t important in that sense. Many in the first century will recieve their reward in heaven and that will be the first time they`ve percieved of 144 000 after they are resurected.

This actually also includes some of the apostles. Strephen the first Christian martyr never heard the figure 144 000.

The apostle to the nations Paul who founded many congregations never even heard of the 144 000 number. He was executed around 68 ad before the vision was given.

So i don`t at all deny that this has all been abused, misused and blown out of proportion.

My position is simply that I believe 144 000 to be literal and so I provide the most extensive research evidence and reasoning that I have to that end.

I respect your intellegence. Any one with three i`s in there name must be 3x intellegent.
Seriously though I don`t believe the belief in literalcy of 144 000 is a salvation issue or even an issue of the heavenly hope. In that a person who didn`t belive it was literal could stilll posibly be heaven bound.

What I do believe is that because the WTBTS has been overstepping Jehovah and Christ to a rather large degree that everything the Watchtower says is no longer trusted. Which is thier fault. So I don`t blame people for not beliving it, yet at the same time I feel it should be protected and defended simply because that is what you are compelled to do when you believe something is true.

[Barnabas]

I don’t think it is idiotic that all mankind is in the new covenant. Paul argues that it is inevitable that all mankind is in the new covenant. Jesus, as the Last Adam, represented all mankind, in his death, taking down all mankind to the grave with him. (1 Co 15:45) That is why Paul says in 2 Co 5:14?

14 For the love the Christ has compels us, because this is what we have judged, that one man died for all; so, then, all had died.

<div align="left">Surely “all” here means “all” of mankind? So “all” of us died. Now Jesus was raised up as the Second Man (1 Co 15:47) and thus representing all mankind, just as Adam once represented us all. Jesus is the one who as representative of all mankind makes the new covenant with God. All humans come into this new covenant by leaving Adam and coming into Christ. How is that accomplished? By water baptism. When they go under water they identify with Christ’s death and burial and leave Adam. When they come up they come into Christ and are raised to a newness of life. (Romans 6:3-7) That is how all mankind comes into the new covenant.</div>

[watchman]

I don’t think it is idiotic that all mankind is in the new covenant. Paul argues that it is inevitable that all mankind is in the new covenant. Jesus, as the Last Adam, represented all mankind, in his death, taking down all mankind to the grave with him. (1 Co 15:45) That is why Paul says in 2 Co 5:14?

14 For the love the Christ has compels us, because this is what we have judged, that one man died for all; so, then, all had died.

<div align="left">Surely “all” here means “all” of mankind? So “all” of us died. Now Jesus was raised up as the Second Man (1 Co 15:47) and thus representing all mankind, just as Adam once represented us all. Jesus is the one who as representative of all mankind makes the new covenant with God. All humans come into this new covenant by leaving Adam and coming into Christ. How is that accomplished? By water baptism. When they go under water they identify with Christ’s death and burial and leave Adam. When they come up they come into Christ and are raised to a newness of life. (Romans 6:3-7) That is how all mankind comes into the new covenant.[/b][/quote]

You are confusing the ransom with the new covenant. Admittedly it is a common mistake.

watchman

[Utuna]

"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton</span>

[Anthony]

<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>I don&#39;t think it is idiotic that all mankind is in the new covenant. Paul argues that it is inevitable that all mankind is in the new covenant. Jesus, as the Last Adam, represented all mankind, in his death, taking down all mankind to the grave with him. (1 Co 15:45) That is why Paul says in 2 Co 5:14?

14 For the love the Christ has compels us, because this is what we have judged, that one man died for all; so, then, all had died.

<div align="left">Surely "all" here means "all" of mankind? So "all" of us died.

</span><span style="color:#000000">So then the ransom is what applies to all men (all mankind) provided they take advantage of it.

The covenant applies only to the 144k; specifically the agreement being made is that they, the ones who are chosen, will rule with Jesus.

[ACLJ]

<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>I don&#39;t think it is idiotic that all mankind is in the new covenant. Paul argues that it is inevitable that all mankind is in the new covenant. Jesus, as the Last Adam, represented all mankind, in his death, taking down all mankind to the grave with him. (1 Co 15:45) That is why Paul says in 2 Co 5:14?

14 For the love the Christ has compels us, because this is what we have judged, that one man died for all; so, then, all had died.

<div align="left">Surely "all" here means "all" of mankind? So "all" of us died.ACLJ

[ilovethebible]

(Jeremiah 31: 33, 2 Corinthians 3:3, 6)

Iltb

[imjustaskin]

This is a great thread. I have always been slightly confused by this subject, as I know as part of the earthly class I am not part of the "covenent for a kingdom", but I could never quite reconcile how Christ could NOT be the mediator for ALL and not just the 144K.

The comments about how the priestly class fit in with the nation of Isreal make perfect sense. For me at least, that cleared up many things. I do think we are all part of the new covenant, with different roles.

Going back to the nation of Isreal, even the foreigners who joined them had to get circumsized, etc, and BECOME part of that nation, that covenent relationship, in order to benefit. The idea of benefiting from the covenent without participating doesn&#39;t make any sense - to my pea brain anyways!

Again, great thread!

[truthseeker]

Love truthseeker

[watchman]

(Jeremiah 31: 33, 2 Corinthians 3:3, 6)

Iltb[/b]

You are confusing the ransom with the new covenant. Admittedly it is a common mistake.

watchman

[Barnabas]

This was very much along the lines of the point I was trying to make, although I was far worse at making it!

It is not that the Ransom and the New Covenant are getting confused - it&#39;s that the Ransom is the way we get into the New Covenant. They are linked inextricably. As Paul wrote -

For I am not ashamed of the good news; it is, in fact, God&#39;s power for salvation to everyone having faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek; (Romans 1:16)

The Ransom, the Good News, is not just a message - it itself is the instrument, the seed, the power of God operating in us - it is what leads to us being in the New Covenant - and indeed, it is for "everyone having faith".

The New Covenant is not operative only toward 144,000, nor is Christ is the Mediator of solely the 144,000. It would seem clear that Paul surely meant what he wrote to us -

"there is one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all" (1 Timothy 2:5)

Yes, there are 144,000 of us who serve as joint heirs with Christ, but joint heirs of what (Ephesians 1:11; Romans 8:17,23)Of his first-born right he inherits from Adam, to be kings and priests of God, just as Adam was, and just as Melchizedek was.(Hebrews 1:5,6; 5:5,6,10) We can only be chosen to be part of that kingdom arrangement once we are in the New Covenant - and all people can be part of that New Covenant thru faith in Christ death and resurrection, and subsequent baptism.

--

(Hebrews 13:20-21) 20 Now may the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an everlasting covenant, our Lord Jesus, 21 equip YOU with every good thing to do his will, performing in us through Jesus Christ that which is well-pleasing in his sight; to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

[watchman]

This was very much along the lines of the point I was trying to make, although I was far worse at making it!

It is not that the Ransom and the New Covenant are getting confused - it&#39;s that the Ransom is the way we get into the New Covenant. They are linked inextricably.[/b]

Yes. It is the ransom and the new covenant that are getting confused. And you are confusing them. The ransom is for all, that is what Paul wrote. No one will dispute that. But did Paul say that Jesus is the mediator of all men? No. You are confusing the two. Being the mediator between God and men does not imply all men. You are simply making an unwarranted assumption and reading something into the scripture which it does not say. That is the common error though.

Just as the Law covenant was with one nation, Israel, so too, the new covenant is with the "Israel of God," which is also variously called the body of Christ and the seed of Abraham. The seed is the means by which all the nations will bless themselves. The Christian Israel of God is also called a holy nation, made up specifically of those who will serve with Christ as kings and priests. It is an exclusive group, to be sure.

Are the dead who never heard of Jehovah or Christ members of the new covenant? No, such a notion is idiotic. A person has to have knowledge of God to be brought into a covenant with Him. But do the dead benefit by the new covenant? Yes, when they are resurrected they will also benefit from living under the kingdom the new covenant will ultimately produce. Again, though, are the dead to be resurrected because they are in a covenant with God? No. The dead will be raised because of the ransom--because Jesus&#39; death bought a dying race. The ransom buys all mankind from death--not just the Israel of God.

But only those who are chosen by God come into a new covenant and come under Christ&#39;s mediatorship. That&#39;s why they are called the chosen ones and the holy ones. Only those in the new covenant are resurrected to heaven.

watchman

[Utuna]

Dear all,

As we already had a discussion about this subject three months ago, here is a previous post of mine which might help you to see where the frontier between the ransom and the New Covenant is:

<div align="center">------------------------------------------------------
</div>
Dear stayawake,

I think you have good points in your post.

At first, before debating about the role of each sharer of God&#39;s blessings, we must make clear what/who they are. Hence, we must go back to basic points.

What is the "raison d&#39;être" of the Bible ? => Gn3:15 => God&#39;s Kingdom.
The whole story of the Bible is a deathmatch between two Seeds. One of both Seeds would constitute a sacret secret : 1) Christ 2) Firstborns made up with Jews and Gentiles. God&#39;s Kingdom is composed of Christ and of his 144 000 twin brothers. As explained Watchman, all mankind would be blessed through this Seed, through God&#39;s Kingdom.

What does this blessing mean ? Christ had to give his life in sacrifice in order to redeem mankind as a whole. The ultimate goal is to bring mankind back to the status of Sons of God, which Adam lost when he sinned.

Under the Mosaic Law, during the Day of Atonement, the High Priest had a direct mediation between God and the people of Israel. Jesus did it once and for all. Being perfect, he didn&#39;t have to present a sacrifice for himself, but he did it for his "family". A second part of the celebration was performed for the sins of the people. That is why his sacrifice concerns mankind as a whole.

Nevertheless, when Jesus died, his blood meant as well the blood of the Lamb killed in memory of the lives of the firstborns saved from the destroyer. The whole Passover is meaningful.

Furthermore, a death was required and blood had to be sprinkled in order to validate a covenant. That&#39;s what did Moses to validate the Old Covenant, to dedicate the tabernacle, sprinkling blood as well upon the utensils in order to declare them holy.

Jesus&#39; sacrifice has several meanings. Some for mankind and others for those under the New Covenant. Putting faith in the value of Jesus&#39; sacrifice isn&#39;t the same thing than being under the New Covenant. The New Covenant is only destined to the future priests because only a new covenant could abolish the previous one. Under the Mosaic Law, only High Priests and priests coming from the tribe of Levi could serve in the temple (Malachi2:4). A new lineage had to be created because Jesus wasn&#39;t from Levi&#39;s tribe. Melkisedek&#39;s lineage would be the future one. This lineage being a spiritual one, only spiritual beings born like Jesus could also be priests. Regarding kingship, it was not under the Mosaic Law but through different "alliances" (Judah, David). It means that Jesus was automatically King, but had to conclude another "small" covenant with God so that his disciples may have the same right than Jesus to be kings (Luke22:29). Jesus&#39; sacrifice validates this "small" convenant too, unless it all belongs to the clauses of the New Covenant. Anyway, that&#39;s not the point I&#39;m trying to explain right now.

Once the 144 000 are all reunited in heaven, they&#39;ll see God face to face. Until then, the anointed remnant still needs Jesus&#39; mediation to approach God. Once in heaven, they&#39;ll be true Sons of God. As for mankind, they&#39;ll need to remain under the mediation of Jesus and of the members of his kingdom until they are considered as true Sons of God too. That&#39;s why, after the 1 000 years, there&#39;s no more temple mentioned in Rv21:22, in Jesus&#39; wife (Rv21:9). For sure, the role of the 144 000 kings and priests will change (Rv22:1-2).

The 144 000 will be kings and priests :

What is a King and what are his duties ? Think about what Salomon did => Peace, render Justice, Prosperity, Wisdom...

What is a priest ? Please read Malachi 2:7

Is it possible to understand God&#39;s Word if we overlook His laws and ways by debating over words? We just have to read it... Paul&#39;s letter to the Hebrews is fantastic !

"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton</span>

[Anthony]

Quote Robert

But did Paul say that Jesus is the mediator of all men? No. You are confusing the two. Being the mediator between God and men does not imply all men. You are simply making an unwarranted assumption and reading something into the scripture, which it does not say. That is the common error though.





Why is it then that when praying to Jehovah we all are to pray in the name of Jesus, making him the mediator to approach Jehovah? When it comes to prayer is Jesus nothing more than just a switchboard operator? John 14:6b

[uglyandthin]

<div class='quotemain'>This was very much along the lines of the point I was trying to make, although I was far worse at making it!

It is not that the Ransom and the New Covenant are getting confused - it&#39;s that the Ransom is the way we get into the New Covenant. They are linked inextricably.[/b]

Yes. It is the ransom and the new covenant that are getting confused. And you are confusing them. The ransom is for all, that is what Paul wrote. No one will dispute that. But did Paul say that Jesus is the mediator of all men? No. You are confusing the two. Being the mediator between God and men does not imply all men. You are simply making an unwarranted assumption and reading something into the scripture which it does not say. That is the common error though.

Just as the Law covenant was with one nation, Israel, so too, the new covenant is with the "Israel of God," which is also variously called the body of Christ and the seed of Abraham. The seed is the means by which all the nations will bless themselves. The Christian Israel of God is also called a holy nation, made up specifically of those who will serve with Christ as kings and priests. It is an exclusive group, to be sure.

Are the dead who never heard of Jehovah or Christ members of the new covenant? No, such a notion is idiotic. A person has to have knowledge of God to be brought into a covenant with Him. But do the dead benefit by the new covenant? Yes, when they are resurrected they will also benefit from living under the kingdom the new covenant will ultimately produce. Again, though, are the dead to be resurrected because they are in a covenant with God? No. The dead will be raised because of the ransom--because Jesus&#39; death bought a dying race. The ransom buys all mankind from death--not just the Israel of God.

But only those who are chosen by God come into a new covenant and come under Christ&#39;s mediatorship. That&#39;s why they are called the chosen ones and the holy ones. Only those in the new covenant are resurrected to heaven.

watchman
[/b][/quote]

Hi Watchman:

If what you say is true (and I think to a degree your statement above is correct, at least to a point) then there must be other mediators of covenants between God and men, those that did know about him prior to thier deaths, but who are not in the covenant between Jesus and his Bride, because Jehovah is a God of Justice in whom there is no injustice, he does nothing with imperfect men but by covenant arrangement through a mediator (Deut. 32:4).

One such mediator that I will put forward is Abraham. He is the mediator of the covenant of faith and that covenant is between God and man, any man (I include women in that statement as the Bible often does) that has the faith of Abraham, that God exists and that he becomes the rewarder of all those earnestly seeking him. Jesus of course is the master mediator which "covers" this arrangement between Jehovah God and man, mediated by Abraham.

Issac is another and so is his son Jacob. If not then why is Jehovah often referred to as the "God" of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, if he is not so "by covenant" since he only deals with man through covenants and mediators? If Abraham is the mediator of all those with faith (who are not a part of any superior covenant) then what types of covenants are Issac and Jacob mediators of? Good question, don&#39;t you think?

If anything I have said is true, there must be more mediators as well. I think there are. Do any of you?

uglyandthin

[Jinnvisible]

Going back to the nation of Isreal, even the foreigners who joined them had to get circumsized, etc, and BECOME part of that nation,[/b]

They were meant to allow it. There was provision in the law for it.

Apparently they often weren`t very good at it.

[elihu]

if christ is the mediator for all men and all men must be in christ then what of those who llived before his arrival

job and daniel, ezekiel and jonah etc.

who did they ultimatly have their faith in?
it was jehovah and his promise to send the Christ to be the saviour of the world

The ransom is for all men who have ever lived and ever will live it is the atonement for mankinds failure.

it is the buy back of life from death

the new covenant is the mechanism by which it is achieved

no responses the last time but it is worth quoting the amazing scripture which christendom rides rough shod over

"for the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly awaits for the revealing of the sons of god
for the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly but because of him who subjected it in hope
because the creation itself ALSO will will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God"

that scripture is telling us that the ransom is for mankind and its delivery mechanism are the sons of God

elihu

[ACLJ]

Dear Utuna,



Thanks for the link to the earlier discussion. It seems FutureMan and Rogue seem to clearly understand the issue.




Looking at what Watchman has written above it seems that Watchman confuses the new covenant with the kingdom covenant, and ransom with the new covenant.

In other words,

What Watchman calls the New Covenant, the Bible calls the Kingdom Covenant

What Watchman calls the Ransom, the Bible calls the New Covenant

When you adjust this then the rest of watchman’s understanding fits with the Bible.

Watchman wrote:

“You are confusing the ransom with the new covenant. Admittedly it is a common mistake”.



I would say the common long held mistake is confusing the New Covenant with the Covenant for a Kingdom; this has been the WTS reasoning for many years.



Watchman wrote:

“You are simply making an unwarranted assumption and reading something into the scripture which it does not say.”

The scripture does in fact say all men. It is a long held assumption by the WTS that the New Covenant is only for the 144000. The scriptures referring to the New Covenant do not actually say that! However, 2Cor 3:6 does say of the apostles:

⁴ Now through the Christ we have this sort of confidence toward God. ⁵ Not that we of ourselves are adequately qualified to reckon anything as issuing from ourselves, but our being adequately qualified issues from God, ⁶ who has indeed adequately qualified us to be ministers of a new covenant, not of a written code, but of spirit; for the written code condemns to death, but the spirit makes alive.

This does not preclude all others of mankind who accept Christ from being In the new covenant.

No one is trying to say that all mankind have the heavenly calling, those chosen for the Kingdom covenant have that privilege.



Utuna wrote:

“The New Covenant is only destined to the future priests because only a new covenant could abolish the previous one. Under the Mosaic Law, only High Priests and priests coming from the tribe of Levi could serve in the temple.” ( Italics mine)

Yes, but also only members of the 144000 priestly class can serve as ministers/priests of the new covenant, ministering over all others in the New Covenant, as the Levitical priests did over the rest of Israel who were in the law covenant.

Incidentally those of the Great Crowd also render service in Jehovah’s Temple though not with the same responsibilities.

<h1 style="text-indent: 0cm;">Rev 7:15</h1> And in response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” ¹⁴ So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. ¹⁵ That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple.

I have to add the following gripe. (Not against anyone on this thread)




Many brothers have said that the Greek Scriptures are for the anointed. (I’ll throw my Gideon’s bible in the trash then :rolleyes: )

So many times a scripture from the Greek Scriptures is used to show all of us what we should do or how we should act; very often it’s the second part of a sentence or thought. If we read the preceding verses we see that (in the eyes of WTS) it is actually directed to the anointed.

Well actually it is always directed to all of us unless of course it specifically refers to the Kingdom Covenant.

Respect & love to all

ACLJ

[Rogue]

Dear Utuna,



Thanks for the link to the earlier discussion. It seems FutureMan and Rogue seem to clearly understand the issue.




Looking at what Watchman has written above it seems that Watchman confuses the new covenant with the kingdom covenant, and ransom with the new covenant.

In other words,

What Watchman calls the New Covenant, the Bible calls the Kingdom Covenant

What Watchman calls the Ransom, the Bible calls the New Covenant

When you adjust this then the rest of watchman&#39;s understanding fits with the Bible.

Watchman wrote:

"You are confusing the ransom with the new covenant. Admittedly it is a common mistake".



I would say the common long held mistake is confusing the New Covenant with the Covenant for a Kingdom; this has been the WTS reasoning for many years.



Watchman wrote:

"You are simply making an unwarranted assumption and reading something into the scripture which it does not say."

The scripture does in fact say all men. It is a long held assumption by the WTS that the New Covenant is only for the 144000. The scriptures referring to the New Covenant do not actually say that! However, 2Cor 3:6 does say of the apostles:

⁴ Now through the Christ we have this sort of confidence toward God. ⁵ Not that we of ourselves are adequately qualified to reckon anything as issuing from ourselves, but our being adequately qualified issues from God, ⁶ who has indeed adequately qualified us to be ministers of a new covenant, not of a written code, but of spirit; for the written code condemns to death, but the spirit makes alive.

This does not preclude all others of mankind who accept Christ from being In the new covenant.

No one is trying to say that all mankind have the heavenly calling, those chosen for the Kingdom covenant have that privilege.



Utuna wrote:

"The New Covenant is only destined to the future priests because only a new covenant could abolish the previous one. Under the Mosaic Law, only High Priests and priests coming from the tribe of Levi could serve in the temple." ( Italics mine)

Yes, but also only members of the 144000 priestly class can serve as ministers/priests of the new covenant, ministering over all others in the New Covenant, as the Levitical priests did over the rest of Israel who were in the law covenant.

Incidentally those of the Great Crowd also render service in Jehovah&#39;s Temple though not with the same responsibilities.

<h1 style="text-indent: 0cm;">Rev 7:15</h1> And in response one of the elders said to me: "These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?" ¹⁴ So right away I said to him: "My lord, you are the one that knows." And he said to me: "These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. ¹⁵ That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple.

I have to add the following gripe. (Not against anyone on this thread)




Many brothers have said that the Greek Scriptures are for the anointed. (I&#39;ll throw my Gideon&#39;s bible in the trash then :rolleyes: )

So many times a scripture from the Greek Scriptures is used to show all of us what we should do or how we should act; very often it&#39;s the second part of a sentence or thought. If we read the preceding verses we see that (in the eyes of WTS) it is actually directed to the anointed.

Well actually it is always directed to all of us unless of course it specifically refers to the Kingdom Covenant.

Respect & love to all

ACLJ[/b]

Well argumented post, I agree with u!

[elihu]

"No one is trying to say that all mankind have the heavenly calling, those chosen for the Kingdom covenant have that privilege."

that is exactly what you are saying by claiming that all are in the new covenant

"for if we have been united together in the likeness of his death cetainly we shall also be in the likeness of his resurrection"
romans 6:5

paul has been talking from about chapter 5 about the nc ,where does he shift his understanding to the kingdom

elihu

[Nash]

Hi ACLJ,

Although I didn&#39;t read the entire thread here (at least not yet - I might have more time later or tomorrow), your reasoning here seems to be what my reasoning also has been.

The New Covenent replaced the Law Covenant, not the Levitical priestly arrangement.

I like the fact that you stated that the assumptions are wrong. You took the words right out of my mouth.

As I had stated above perhaps I am wrong in this line of reasoning. I have embarked on a thorough reading of the bible but it will be some time before I reach the Greek Scriptures. So I&#39;m not saying I&#39;m right - perhaps I am very confused. But from what I can see, it seems plausible that the Kingdom Covenant is for the 144,000 and the New Covenant is for all of Jehovah&#39;s obedient servants, including, of course, the 144,000.

The apostle Paul and others believed that they were of the Israel of God. Of course, they are right. But I think that the assumption of the Watchtower is that the 144,000 alone are part of the Israel of God. This is what has gone unchallenged in the WTS.

It&#39;s worth mentioning that should the WTS&#39; interpretation of the New Covenant be wrong, Watchman&#39;s viewpoint (and others, of course) concerning the coming downfall and discipline of Jehovah&#39;s people remains the same, essentially.

Nash

[ACLJ]

Hi Rogue,
Thanks, its heartwarming to see so many understanding this important point.


Hi Nash,

Bet you can&#39;t wait for the Greek scrips, Arn&#39;t you tempted to fast forward?

Jus jokin.

[quote]
"No one is trying to say that all mankind have the heavenly calling, those chosen for the Kingdom covenant have that privilege."

that is exactly what you are saying by claiming that all are in the new covenant

"for if we have been united together in the likeness of his death cetainly we shall also be in the likeness of his resurrection"
romans 6:5

paul has been talking from about chapter 5 about the nc ,where does he shift his understanding to the kingdom

elihu


Hi Elihu
Yes Paul is talking about the NC but again from the context we see that what he is saying is for all mankind (Who have faith in Christ). Ch 5: 6 also applies to all who accept Christ, those chosen for heavenly life and those with the earthly hope. All of us need to Die with Christ in the likeness of his death (die to our Adamic sinful nature) and all must raised in his likeness with his personality etc (the new man). Do not read here in the likeness of his resurection to heaven (although that will apply to those of the heavenly hope in time). Here he is speaking re. all mankind.

The anointed are the first

ones to come under the NC, they become priests so that they can reveal to all others how to come under its blessings. This is happening now not in the distant future. The very fact that many on this forum have already recognized this is evidence of that.

This is amazing and so important for everyone to see.

We have to read these passages prayerfully and without the years of indoctrination that many of us have had, if we do that (and it can be very difficult) we see things much more clearly and it is so logical. We all need to be in union (In) Christ and Christ in us. Resurrected with Christ in this manner means we come to life in Christ, we "put on" Christ, he then takes over as it were and not only are we forgiven for our sin, but he begins to work in us to begin to prevent us sinning and gives us power to accomplish things such as preach the "Good News" which is what this is. This does not make us anointed but it does bring us into the NC now, with many benefits in the future.
:ban_dance01: ACLJ

[Utuna]

Dear ACLJ,

Watchman is right!

Moreover, he said: "You are confusing the ransom with the new covenant." I&#39;d rather say that you are confusing faith with the new covenant!

I have several arguments to present to you:

1) As I said in my previous post, the theme of the Bible is God&#39;s kingdom, that is the Seed of the Woman. The Bible is God&#39;s plans to fulfill Gn 3:15. As you already know, the Seed is Jesus and the 144 000 anointed ones, and the woman is the new covenant (Gal4:26).

When Jehovah made the OC (Old Covenant) with Israel, Moses was the mediator.

Jehovah said:

"And Moses went up to the [true] God, and Jehovah began to call to him out of the mountain, saying: "This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and to tell the sons of Israel, &#39;YOU yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, that I might carry YOU on wings of eagles and bring YOU to myself. And now if YOU will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then YOU will certainly become my special property out of all [other] peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. And YOU yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.&#39; These are the words that you are to say to the sons of Israel." - (Ex19:3-6)

Did the Israelites constitute right away a kingdom of priests and a holy nation? No! The reward would only be given if they obeyed God&#39;s voice and kept His covenant. The OC and the Law were shadows of things to come. The Law was a tutor leading to Christ (Gal3:24) and the NC a tutor leading to God*. However, Israel didn&#39;t obey God&#39;s voice, didn&#39;t keep His convenant and even put its Messiah to death when he appeared on earth. As a consequence, only a small remnant would be saved (Rom9:27) and the great number of spiritual Jews would come from the nations and then constitute a spiritual Israel, the Israel of God.

When Jesus instituted the New Covenant, he created the Israel of God, thus granting the reward promised by Jehovah in Exodus to a small remnant of Jews, along with Gentiles a little bit later. That&#39;s only from then on that the spiritual Israel became a kingdom of priests (or a royal priesthood) and a holy nation. A royal priesthood means that they are all kings and priests. Was the earthly Israel made up that way? Of course, not! It means that Jehovah&#39;s reward promised in Exodus was reserved for the future, during Jesus&#39; stay on earth. The Israel of God, the royal priesthood has already been created, but its members haven&#39;t been revealed yet. God has personally chosen each and every one of them since the foundation of the world but as Jesus said, "the kingdom of the heavens" is among mankind, that is disseminated in time and in space.

When Moses sprinkled blood upon the people and sprinkled the other part of the blood, plus the anointing oil upon the High Priest and the priests, it was not the prefiguration of a future people (GC) "overseen" by the future priesthood (144 000 anointed ones) making up then a so-called "Israel of God"! Why? Because Jehovah said that Israel would be a holy nation "out of all other peoples". The Israel of God would remain a distinctive nation, which was created by the NC in 33CE. The ultimate goal is not that mankind as a whole integrates^# the Israel of God, it is that they all become again Sons of God thanks to that holy nation. The Israel of God is God&#39;s kingdom, the Seed of the woman (Gn3:15), not mankind nor all Christians.

2) Please read Gal6:15-16

"For neither is circumcision anything nor is uncircumcision, but a new creation [is something]. And all those who will walk orderly by this rule of conduct, upon them be peace and mercy, even upon the Israel of God."

Please compare with 2Cor5:17. Here Paul says that what is important (or "something") for the Israel of God is the new creation. The anointed ones only are concerned by the new creation. The fact that Paul mentions the new creation as something important for the members of the Israel of God reveals that that nation is made up with anointed ones.

3) Please read Gal4:26:

"But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother."

Here, the context of the chapter shows that he was talking to other anointed ones and says that the NC is their mother => Gn3:15, the Seed of the woman! The NC is not the symbolic mother of the GC!

4) The Israel of God is also compared with Jesus&#39; bride.

Please read:

"For I am jealous over YOU with a godly jealousy, for I personally promised YOU in marriage to one husband that I might present YOU as a chaste virgin to the Christ. But I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent seduced Eve by its cunning, YOUR minds might be corrupted away from the sincerity and the chastity that are due the Christ." - (2Cor11:2-3)

The Israel of God is not the GC! Jesus and his bride will become one flesh, that is God&#39;s kingdom:

"For this reason a man will leave [his] father and [his] mother and he will stick to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." This sacred secret is great. Now I am speaking with respect to Christ and the congregation." - (Ephesians5: 31-32)

5) Salvation through our faith in the ransom is not under any convenant. Please read Rom4:7-13:

""Happy are those whose lawless deeds have been pardoned and whose sins have been covered; happy is the man whose sin Jehovah will by no means take into account."

Does this happiness, then, come upon circumcised people or also upon uncircumcised people? For we say: "His faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness." Under what circumstances, then, was it counted? When he was in circumcision or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received a sign, namely, circumcision, as a seal of the righteousness by the faith he had while in his uncircumcised state, that he might be the father of all those having faith while in uncircumcision, in order for righteousness to be counted to them; and a father of circumcised offspring, not only to those who adhere to circumcision, but also to those who walk orderly in the footsteps of that faith while in the uncircumcised state which our father Abraham had.

For it was not through law that Abraham or his seed had the promise that he should be heir of a world, but it was through the righteousness by faith."

When Jesus died outside Jerusalem, it was in order to redeem the entire world by a ransom. But our salvation granted to us thanks to our faith is not under any covenant as explained above! That&#39;s why the GC will be saved by their faith even if they don&#39;t belong to the NC.

I have other arguments and more details to explain about what I wrote above but it&#39;s getting really late here now. I&#39;ll do it tomorrow morning.

*The words in italics are hypothesis only!
# If I said otherwise earlier, I was wrong or stating hypothesis only!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Nash]

Hi again, ACLJ,

Yeah, I&#39;d like to fast forward, but I think perhaps I&#39;ll save the best for last. :P

Nash

[truthseeker]

This is amazing and so important for everyone to see.

We have to read these passages prayerfully and without the years of indoctrination that many of us have had, if we do that (and it can be very difficult) we see things much more clearly and it is so logical. We all need to be in union (In) Christ and Christ in us. Resurrected with Christ in this manner means we come to life in Christ, we "put on" Christ, he then takes over as it were and not only are we forgiven for our sin, but he begins to work in us to begin to prevent us sinning and gives us power to accomplish things such as preach the "Good News" which is what this is. This does not make us anointed but it does bring us into the NC now, with many benefits in the future.
:ban_dance01: ACLJ

<span style="font-family:Times New Roman">Love Truthseeker

[elihu]

Yes Paul is talking about the NC but again from the context we see that what he is saying is for all mankind (Who have faith in Christ"

context of romans i read as to the sons of God who will be revealed to all creation

" the spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God
and if children then heirs
heirs of god and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with him thAT WE MAY ALSO BE GLORIFIED TOGETHER" ROM8:16,17

elihu

[Utuna]

Dear all,

The OC was between the earthly Israel and God, and was a shadow of things to come.

The NC was between the... spiritual Israel and God, and is :

"But now [Jesus] has obtained a more excellent public service, so that he is also the mediator of a correspondingly better covenant, which has been legally established upon better promises." - (Heb8:6)

The better promises were a spiritual and greater accomplishment of the Law, the shadow of said "better promises". The Law (OC) was given to the earthly Israel and the NC was given to the spiritual Israel, the Israel of God. Mankind would benefit later (directly or indirectly, partly or fully) from what would have been given first to the Israel of God.

Jehovah wanted to grant Israel the wonderful privilege to be heavenly nation, the first to be considered as Sons of God again. That&#39;s why he gave them the Law, which by nature, wasn&#39;t flawed. Of course, it was incomplete because it was only a tutor leading to Christ, but it had all in store that was required to accomplish the goal for which it was created, that is figuratively weighing down the Holy Nation of old with real perception of sin&#39;s yoke so that they may yearn for the freedom given by Jesus&#39; sacrifice as well as that they may later sympathize with the whole of mankind in their personal struggle against sin during the 1 000 years leading to perfection. Gentiles never had to fight against the restrictions established by the Law, the goodness of their heart (and their faith) being their ultimate standard before God&#39;s eyes as Paul explained it perfectly. The Jews had to demonstrate to mankind that those restrictions were not intended to be meant as a fighting against our sinful desires through technical rules, but observing in our daily life what we interpret ourselves by the word "LOVE". If we love God and others, we don&#39;t need any other law, do we ?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[elihu]

Utuna said

Moreover, he said: "You are confusing the ransom with the new covenant." I&#39;d rather say that you are confusing faith with the new covenant!

i agree Utuna

the man on the stake beside Christ expressed faith and he was promised a wonderful reward

the gc show faith, they wash their robes white in the lambs blood that is not the same as being bodily washed as those who are in the NC

i suspect that we are given the vision of the gc who have emerged from the GT and then during the 1000yrs wash their robes
that is why the scripture describes them in circumstances that are related to God being re-united with mankind
which could not possibly be the case immediatley after the GT because that is the period of time given for the kingdom to rule
in other words they have not only come through the GT but have lived the 1000yrs and have been judged worthy of everlasting life

that is why they can cry out

"salvation we owe to our god who sits on the throne, and to the lamb"

firstly they acknowledge Jehovah as the ultimate source of their salvation and secondly they are now in position to also recieve the full benefit of the ransom of the lamb.

everlasting life.

elihu

[truthseeker]

elihu -
the gc show faith, they wash their robes white in the lambs blood that is not the same as being bodily washed as those who are in the NC.


Truthseeker

[Jinnvisible]

Christ&#39;s mediation of the new covenant involves 144 000 initiates.

People going to live in heaven is the new aspect Christ brought to the table. So people going to live in heaven are the &#39;new&#39; part of the new covenant. Earthly resurrections had even previously occurred with Elijah and Elisha under the old covenant. Jews previously had no real notion of heavenly resurrection. Even under the &#39;old&#39; covenant the Jews had a perception of earthly resurrection.

There are two resurrections. The first and the second.

The first resurrection requires immediate mediation. Those who are raised above the angels require Christ to validate them to God in order to enter the Heavenly realm. Once Christ commits to the validation or sealing the Kingdom of Christ is instituted.

The heavenly kingdom of Christ then becomes the institution through which mankind is brought to perfection. As I understand it, at this point even though mankind on earth is imperfect they are ostensibly `lent` perfection. Or in other words as soon as the day of Jehovah has passed and the earth has been cleansed there are still imperfect people on the earth yet they do not die, even though they are imperfect.

The great crowd on earth ceases to expire, even though they are not fully cleansed of Adamic sin. [the inner stain]. Like an auto insurer Christ as sovereign underwrites the great crowd. Otherwise if this were not the case during Christ&#39;s reign people would still die having not been brought to perfection.

All this is somewhat worrying to satan.

Jesus was a faithful spirit son of God. Satan was unable to keep faith with Jehovah.

Then something else happens. Christ decides that not only could he remain a faithful spirit son where satan could not, he decides that he can even become human, lower than Satan&#39;s form, and still remain faithful.

All this is rather bad news for satan, he doesn&#39;t like it, he&#39;s not happy.

Once Jesus achieved the act of remaining faithful as a human he achieved something new.

Jesus dignified God&#39;s creation of man.

It is apparent to me that once Christ had achieved this, he was now a possible candidate for being a heavenly sovereign over mankind. Jesus had been born as the highest spirit son of God. He had now achieved what no other spirit son had achieved. As a celebration of this, Jesus brings some human friends into the high heavens were they are transformed.

Apparently Jehovah is so impressed with his son Jesus, that he gives him an independent source of life, and also gives this to some of his friends.

Satan isn&#39;t pleased with any of this, he wants to cut back on this kind of thing. He actually tries to stop it from happening even after Christ&#39;s achievement.

Christ does not bring all of his friends into the high heavens. For him this would be going against the whole point. Some of the friends are raised high, yet if Jesus made all people heavenly creatures then he defeats the purpose of proving Gods creation of [human] man a worth while creation.

Anyone who asserts that all righteous people end up in heaven is just going along with satan in this regard.

It suggests that Jehovah&#39;s creation of people was never a worth while creation, and it makes a mockery of Christ becoming human and suffering in behalf of humans.

If we consider the thief of Golgotha, Jesus told him that they would be together in Paradise. They had two different destinations. One resurrected to the earth and one to the heavens yet Jesus stated that they would be together.

When Christ ascended to the heavens he had accomplished his chosen task he had also made friends along the way with natural men. Yet once ascended he approached a Pharisee Saul of tarsus to engage him in his purpose. He directly contacted this person not through his friends he had made on earth. He contacted him directly.

Due to both the Golgotha and Damascus road incidents we can make a deduction. As Christ came a suffered for man he considers anyone who wins a place in the earth to come as being &#39;with him&#39; together. He also does not commit to restricting from contact or communication with humans.

When Christ has perfected humanity they resemble the condition of Adam in the garden. They are in a condition for which Jehovah God may not withhold himself, as he did not withhold himself from Adam. Yet with Christ as the mediator who had once been a human and had even directly commissioned a human, Christ may also communicate directly with humans on earth. He considers them to be with him in paradise.

Hence the Watchtowers rendering of the new covenant should be accepted for its own merit.

It is the leavened condition with which the WTBTS treats the issue which can be rejected. That there is a select group chosen for the heavens does not mean that Christ considers himself to be separate from his human people. Neither does it mean that he would never communicate directly with an earth dweller in the present or future.

The risen anointed are written about as being `first fruits`. The implication is that there is a following harvest. Those of the first resurrection are transformed in an instant to perfection. Those who dwell on earth and become perfect are second third or fourth fruits although the bible doesn&#39;t specifically employ these terms.

Powerful glorious angels were mesmerized by the beauty of the earth and its inhabitants, so much so that they gave up being angels to become human. Under slightly different conditions Jesus did the same thing. He felt that the earth and humanity was so beautiful that it was worthwhile giving up his heavenly place in an attempt to save it.

What a terrible irony if histories greatest institute of bible studies made people feel as if a human life on earth was a worthless gift. Any believer regardless of the nature of their hope would have a responsibility directly to Christ not to indulge themselves or shepherd others in this degree of cynicism. Especially as in teh difficult days ahead it seems foretold that there will be certain slaves of the heavenly hope who tragically loose everything.

Paul stated that he was confident that nothing would separate a believer from their love of Christ. That must include a leavened legal service institution, disappointed expectations or anything else.

[ACLJ]

This is amazing and so important for everyone to see.

We have to read these passages prayerfully and without the years of indoctrination that many of us have had, if we do that (and it can be very difficult) we see things much more clearly and it is so logical. We all need to be in union (In) Christ and Christ in us. Resurrected with Christ in this manner means we come to life in Christ, we "put on" Christ, he then takes over as it were and not only are we forgiven for our sin, but he begins to work in us to begin to prevent us sinning and gives us power to accomplish things such as preach the "Good News" which is what this is. This does not make us anointed but it does bring us into the NC now, with many benefits in the future.
:ban_dance01: ACLJ


Hi Truthseeker,

Well I re-read my post and asked myself the same question! Lol.



But no I&#39;m not; I&#39;ve been in the "truth?" for 50 years or so (minus about 4 in my teens)

Still attending mtgs etc. (I&#39;ve developed quite good filters)



Perhaps the last para. was a bit misleading. I truly believe that at this time up until judgement all mankind&#39;s sins are forgiven, there are no conditions attached to that, (repentance is a slightly different issue), but of course if by the time or at the time Christ starts his judgement after the tribulation, then anyone who has not accepted/put faith in him will be in a very dangerous condition, so it is shall we say, prudent to put faith in Jah, the ransom and Christ now (I would prefer to say absolutely vital if we want to be on Jah&#39;s side during the tribulation instead of making our minds up at that time.)

As has been said here before:

Philippians 2:9-11: ⁹ For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name, ¹⁰ so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, ¹¹ and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. So rather than have them bent for us, let&#39;s bend them now.



Regarding Christ working in us to prevent us sinning, What I meant was; OK we can all do our best not to sin, But we are imperfect flesh, we cannot stop sinning, we take one step forward and one (or two) back. It will always be that way while we are in the flesh (Adamic nature as it were), as it was with Israel & the Law. If we accept that we died along with Christ as it were (to our Adamic nature) And then that we are raised with him (not necessarily to the heavenly hope!, that is a choice made by Jah for some of us) but raised in the sense that now having died we come to life as a new person, dying as to the flesh, and now fully submitting to Jehovah & Christ, we can actually put Christ on like a garment, Christ can be in union with us (in us) and rather than us in our own effort try not to sin, Christ will actually be our life and gradually prevent us sinning. Yes most of us believe that this will happen in the 1000year reign but Christ wants us to go through this process right now.

Yes this does seem very "Born Again" esp. to witnesses, but Man was made Body, soul (the person) and spirit (mans spirit working with Gods spirit) Adam lost the most important part of that when he left Jehovah. We don&#39;t need to wait for the new system to regain that spiritual link with Jehovah, (through Jesus Christ) it is there waiting for us to take advantage of it. That is what most if not all of the Greek scriptures are urging us to do, that is what the good news is, that is what Paul & the Apostles were preaching, It has nothing to do with having the heavenly hope, that is a separate or additional thing that some from among us are chosen for, but all of us can be a part of these things and have this union with Christ which is traditionally thought to apply only to those of the heavenly calling.

The whole issue is Flesh or Spirit, independence or submission. If we serve Jehovah in our flesh, what do we really accomplish? Is Jehovah really interested in Flesh? I equate flesh with independence because Adam and all mankind were made to live by spirit, completely subject to Jehovah, with Jehovah directing us not us deciding what to do. (Of course he still would have been able to live and enjoy his life).

Jehovah through Christ is offering us the chance now to get that spiritual link back by coming into union with Christ, in spirit, not in the future.

Regarding Preaching, much the same as with the sinning issue, we can preach and preach by human effort, and ask the spirit to help us, but if we follow the above Christ will be doing the preaching and giving us the words to say, then it will have power.



All this debate about New Covenant boils down to this. We don&#39;t have to be of the heavenly calling for the message of the scriptures to apply to all of us now. Of course The Kingdom Covenant is offered to some who are chosen who are firstfruits of the New Covenant, and have special responsibilities, but really there is little difference between these and what we call OS.



Well I&#39;ve really gone for it now, couldn&#39;t stop, but there is much much more to say.

Hope you haven&#39;t already decided I&#39;m a nut. All this hasn&#39;t just come from me; it&#39;s been gradually passed to me by an anointed Bro. with much anguish and upheaval on my part. (I was a staunch Org man B4).



Love to all.

AcLJ[/b]

[ACLJ]

Dear ACLJ,

Watchman is right!

Moreover, he said: "You are confusing the ransom with the new covenant." I&#39;d rather say that you are confusing faith with the new covenant!

I have several arguments to present to you:

1) As I said in my previous post, the theme of the Bible is God&#39;s kingdom, that is the Seed of the Woman. The Bible is God&#39;s plans to fulfill Gn 3:15. As you already know, the Seed is Jesus and the 144 000 anointed ones, and the woman is the new covenant (Gal4:26).

When Jehovah made the OC (Old Covenant) with Israel, Moses was the mediator.

Jehovah said:

"And Moses went up to the [true] God, and Jehovah began to call to him out of the mountain, saying: "This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and to tell the sons of Israel, &#39;YOU yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, that I might carry YOU on wings of eagles and bring YOU to myself. And now if YOU will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then YOU will certainly become my special property out of all [other] peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. And YOU yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.&#39; These are the words that you are to say to the sons of Israel." - (Ex19:3-6)

Did the Israelites constitute right away a kingdom of priests and a holy nation? No! The reward would only be given if they obeyed God&#39;s voice and kept His covenant. The OC and the Law were shadows of things to come. The Law was a tutor leading to Christ (Gal3:24) and the NC a tutor leading to God*. However, Israel didn&#39;t obey God&#39;s voice, didn&#39;t keep His convenant and even put its Messiah to death when he appeared on earth. As a consequence, only a small remnant would be saved (Rom9:27) and the great number of spiritual Jews would come from the nations and then constitute a spiritual Israel, the Israel of God.

When Jesus instituted the New Covenant, he created the Israel of God, thus granting the reward promised by Jehovah in Exodus to a small remnant of Jews, along with Gentiles a little bit later. That&#39;s only from then on that the spiritual Israel became a kingdom of priests (or a royal priesthood) and a holy nation. A royal priesthood means that they are all kings and priests. Was the earthly Israel made up that way? Of course, not! It means that Jehovah&#39;s reward promised in Exodus was reserved for the future, during Jesus&#39; stay on earth. The Israel of God, the royal priesthood has already been created, but its members haven&#39;t been revealed yet. God has personally chosen each and every one of them since the foundation of the world but as Jesus said, "the kingdom of the heavens" is among mankind, that is disseminated in time and in space.

When Moses sprinkled blood upon the people and sprinkled the other part of the blood, plus the anointing oil upon the High Priest and the priests, it was not the prefiguration of a future people (GC) "overseen" by the future priesthood (144 000 anointed ones) making up then a so-called "Israel of God"! Why? Because Jehovah said that Israel would be a holy nation "out of all other peoples". The Israel of God would remain a distinctive nation, which was created by the NC in 33CE. The ultimate goal is not that mankind as a whole integrates^# the Israel of God, it is that they all become again Sons of God thanks to that holy nation. The Israel of God is God&#39;s kingdom, the Seed of the woman (Gn3:15), not mankind nor all Christians.

2) Please read Gal6:15-16

"For neither is circumcision anything nor is uncircumcision, but a new creation [is something]. And all those who will walk orderly by this rule of conduct, upon them be peace and mercy, even upon the Israel of God."

Please compare with 2Cor5:17. Here Paul says that what is important (or "something") for the Israel of God is the new creation. The anointed ones only are concerned by the new creation. The fact that Paul mentions the new creation as something important for the members of the Israel of God reveals that that nation is made up with anointed ones.

3) Please read Gal4:26:

"But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother."

Here, the context of the chapter shows that he was talking to other anointed ones and says that the NC is their mother => Gn3:15, the Seed of the woman! The NC is not the symbolic mother of the GC!

4) The Israel of God is also compared with Jesus&#39; bride.

Please read:

"For I am jealous over YOU with a godly jealousy, for I personally promised YOU in marriage to one husband that I might present YOU as a chaste virgin to the Christ. But I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent seduced Eve by its cunning, YOUR minds might be corrupted away from the sincerity and the chastity that are due the Christ." - (2Cor11:2-3)

The Israel of God is not the GC! Jesus and his bride will become one flesh, that is God&#39;s kingdom:

"For this reason a man will leave [his] father and [his] mother and he will stick to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." This sacred secret is great. Now I am speaking with respect to Christ and the congregation." - (Ephesians5: 31-32)

5) Salvation through our faith in the ransom is not under any convenant. Please read Rom4:7-13:

""Happy are those whose lawless deeds have been pardoned and whose sins have been covered; happy is the man whose sin Jehovah will by no means take into account."

Does this happiness, then, come upon circumcised people or also upon uncircumcised people? For we say: "His faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness." Under what circumstances, then, was it counted? When he was in circumcision or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received a sign, namely, circumcision, as a seal of the righteousness by the faith he had while in his uncircumcised state, that he might be the father of all those having faith while in uncircumcision, in order for righteousness to be counted to them; and a father of circumcised offspring, not only to those who adhere to circumcision, but also to those who walk orderly in the footsteps of that faith while in the uncircumcised state which our father Abraham had.

For it was not through law that Abraham or his seed had the promise that he should be heir of a world, but it was through the righteousness by faith."

When Jesus died outside Jerusalem, it was in order to redeem the entire world by a ransom. But our salvation granted to us thanks to our faith is not under any covenant as explained above! That&#39;s why the GC will be saved by their faith even if they don&#39;t belong to the NC.

I have other arguments and more details to explain about what I wrote above but it&#39;s getting really late here now. I&#39;ll do it tomorrow morning.

*The words in italics are hypothesis only!
# If I said otherwise earlier, I was wrong or stating hypothesis only!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton[/b]

Hi Utuna,



Thanks for your posts please don’t think I’ve ignored them, I will take more time to consider them. I hope my last post to Truthseeker lays out a bit clearer where I’m coming from.



By the way, your comments are always gracious. It’s much appreciated.



AcLJ

[elihu]

hi ACLJ


"part. (I was a sHope you haven&#39;t already decided I&#39;m a nut. All this hasn&#39;t just come from me; it&#39;s been gradually passed to me by an anointed Bro. with much anguish and upheaval on my taunch Org man B4)."

i recognise you as one who desires to be Christs follower, do not let anyone or anything stop you from pursuing that goal my friend.
the nc is not a closed covenant it is an open covenant for all who feel called to it
the wto have simply hijacked it and closed it down.

isaiah 56 is worth pondering and causes me some conflict in my understanding of the application of the nc

whichever view is correct we must all be to united and ready to serve christ as a brother if called and if not called we must live our lives with faith and conviction as we await the return of Christ and the kingdom of God.

elihu



read isaiah56

[Tsaphah]

<div class='quotemain'>Dear ACLJ,

Watchman is right!

Moreover, he said: "You are confusing the ransom with the new covenant." I&#39;d rather say that you are confusing faith with the new covenant!

I have several arguments to present to you:

1) As I said in my previous post, the theme of the Bible is God&#39;s kingdom, that is the Seed of the Woman. The Bible is God&#39;s plans to fulfill Gn 3:15. As you already know, the Seed is Jesus and the 144 000 anointed ones, and the woman is the new covenant (Gal4:26).

When Jehovah made the OC (Old Covenant) with Israel, Moses was the mediator.

Jehovah said:

"And Moses went up to the [true] God, and Jehovah began to call to him out of the mountain, saying: "This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and to tell the sons of Israel, &#39;YOU yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, that I might carry YOU on wings of eagles and bring YOU to myself. And now if YOU will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then YOU will certainly become my special property out of all [other] peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. And YOU yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.&#39; These are the words that you are to say to the sons of Israel." - (Ex19:3-6)

Did the Israelites constitute right away a kingdom of priests and a holy nation? No! The reward would only be given if they obeyed God&#39;s voice and kept His covenant. The OC and the Law were shadows of things to come. The Law was a tutor leading to Christ (Gal3:24) and the NC a tutor leading to God*. However, Israel didn&#39;t obey God&#39;s voice, didn&#39;t keep His convenant and even put its Messiah to death when he appeared on earth. As a consequence, only a small remnant would be saved (Rom9:27) and the great number of spiritual Jews would come from the nations and then constitute a spiritual Israel, the Israel of God.

When Jesus instituted the New Covenant, he created the Israel of God, thus granting the reward promised by Jehovah in Exodus to a small remnant of Jews, along with Gentiles a little bit later. That&#39;s only from then on that the spiritual Israel became a kingdom of priests (or a royal priesthood) and a holy nation. A royal priesthood means that they are all kings and priests. Was the earthly Israel made up that way? Of course, not! It means that Jehovah&#39;s reward promised in Exodus was reserved for the future, during Jesus&#39; stay on earth. The Israel of God, the royal priesthood has already been created, but its members haven&#39;t been revealed yet. God has personally chosen each and every one of them since the foundation of the world but as Jesus said, "the kingdom of the heavens" is among mankind, that is disseminated in time and in space.

When Moses sprinkled blood upon the people and sprinkled the other part of the blood, plus the anointing oil upon the High Priest and the priests, it was not the prefiguration of a future people (GC) "overseen" by the future priesthood (144 000 anointed ones) making up then a so-called "Israel of God"! Why? Because Jehovah said that Israel would be a holy nation "out of all other peoples". The Israel of God would remain a distinctive nation, which was created by the NC in 33CE. The ultimate goal is not that mankind as a whole integrates^# the Israel of God, it is that they all become again Sons of God thanks to that holy nation. The Israel of God is God&#39;s kingdom, the Seed of the woman (Gn3:15), not mankind nor all Christians.

2) Please read Gal6:15-16

"For neither is circumcision anything nor is uncircumcision, but a new creation [is something]. And all those who will walk orderly by this rule of conduct, upon them be peace and mercy, even upon the Israel of God."

Please compare with 2Cor5:17. Here Paul says that what is important (or "something") for the Israel of God is the new creation. The anointed ones only are concerned by the new creation. The fact that Paul mentions the new creation as something important for the members of the Israel of God reveals that that nation is made up with anointed ones.

3) Please read Gal4:26:

"But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother."

Here, the context of the chapter shows that he was talking to other anointed ones and says that the NC is their mother => Gn3:15, the Seed of the woman! The NC is not the symbolic mother of the GC!

4) The Israel of God is also compared with Jesus&#39; bride.

Please read:

"For I am jealous over YOU with a godly jealousy, for I personally promised YOU in marriage to one husband that I might present YOU as a chaste virgin to the Christ. But I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent seduced Eve by its cunning, YOUR minds might be corrupted away from the sincerity and the chastity that are due the Christ." - (2Cor11:2-3)

The Israel of God is not the GC! Jesus and his bride will become one flesh, that is God&#39;s kingdom:

"For this reason a man will leave [his] father and [his] mother and he will stick to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." This sacred secret is great. Now I am speaking with respect to Christ and the congregation." - (Ephesians5: 31-32)

5) Salvation through our faith in the ransom is not under any convenant. Please read Rom4:7-13:

""Happy are those whose lawless deeds have been pardoned and whose sins have been covered; happy is the man whose sin Jehovah will by no means take into account."

Does this happiness, then, come upon circumcised people or also upon uncircumcised people? For we say: "His faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness." Under what circumstances, then, was it counted? When he was in circumcision or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. And he received a sign, namely, circumcision, as a seal of the righteousness by the faith he had while in his uncircumcised state, that he might be the father of all those having faith while in uncircumcision, in order for righteousness to be counted to them; and a father of circumcised offspring, not only to those who adhere to circumcision, but also to those who walk orderly in the footsteps of that faith while in the uncircumcised state which our father Abraham had.

For it was not through law that Abraham or his seed had the promise that he should be heir of a world, but it was through the righteousness by faith."

When Jesus died outside Jerusalem, it was in order to redeem the entire world by a ransom. But our salvation granted to us thanks to our faith is not under any covenant as explained above! That&#39;s why the GC will be saved by their faith even if they don&#39;t belong to the NC.

I have other arguments and more details to explain about what I wrote above but it&#39;s getting really late here now. I&#39;ll do it tomorrow morning.

*The words in italics are hypothesis only!
# If I said otherwise earlier, I was wrong or stating hypothesis only!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
<span style="font-family:Book Antiqua">Here is some information that may help us understand what the covenant really means. When Jehovah told Moses that he was making a covenant with the descendants of Israel, the Hebrew word used is “ beriyth”, pronounced ber-eeth. According to Strong’s number(H1285) it has the sense of a) an alliance, treaty, pledge between men or, alliance (of friendship) between God and man. It comes from a root word, “barah”, pronounced baa-raa, According to Strong’s number(H1262) it has the sense of eating. (1Sam. 17:8), (2 Sam. 3:35) What? To get the sense of what is being said, it is necessary to read these texts in context. This root word also has the sense of creating or shaping(H1254). (Gen. 1:1) In this case Jehovah choose materials and created the heavens and earth.

In the case of Moses and the nation of Israel, Jehovah goes on to say, “then YOU will certainly become my special property out of all [other] peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me.” (Ex. 19:5b) The use of the word and it’s root gives the sense that Jehovah is choosing, or picking out a specific thing, just as a person chooses a food to eat. So the word beriyth means to choose or pick out. That is what Jehovah did with the Israelites. This also goes back to fulfilling the promise made to Abraham. (Gen. 15:18, 17:7)

The Greek word that translates the Hebrew word, “beriyth” is “diatheke”, pronounced dee-ah-Thee-kay. In the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew scriptures, this is the word that is used in all cases, for the word covenant. This Greek word is a combination of “dia” (dee-ah) and “tithemi” (tith-a-mee). The word “dia” means by means of or through means of, and “tithemi” means to set in place or set down. So Jesus used “diatheke” when he explained the pouring out of his blood. (Mt. 26:28, Mk. 14:24, Lk. 22:20) Peter uses this word in explaining that arrangement that Jehovah made with the Israelites, and the new arrangement with the descendants through the new covenant by Jesus. (Acts 3:25-26)

Just as Utuna explained in his post, not all of Israel would become priests. Only those designated to be so, would become priests for the total number of Israelites. So too, with the Israel of God, through Jesus as the High Priest, only a chosen number would become priests. Those who accept the covenant will all have a part in the Kingdom of God but, not all will be Kings and Priests.

Each day that we awaken and recognize the wonders of our creator and the sacrifice of his High Priest, we must choose how we will spend the time of the day we are given. Each day is a blessing from Jehovah. The blood of the covenant was to cover all mankind and those that would recognize the ransom that was paid for them. But, it was through the offerings of Christ and his chosen priests from mankind that the covenant would be enforced.

Praise Jehovah for his arrangements,
Tsaphah

[Steadfast]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tsaphah)</div>
Just as Utuna explained in his post, not all of Israel would become priests. Only those designated to be so, would become priests for the total number of Israelites. So too, with the Israel of God, through Jesus as the High Priest, only a chosen number would become priests. Those who accept the covenant will all have a part in the Kingdom of God but, not all will be Kings and Priests. [/b]

I would agree with this information....because the Law Covenant wasn&#39;t made with just the priests...it was made with the entire nation of Israel at Sinai. Did Moses only mediate for the priests?

So while a group will be chosen in the future out of the sons of Israel in Revelation 7 to be kings and priests with Jesus Christ for 1000 years, it is not implying that the New Covenant was only made with the priests, any more than we can apply that rationale to the Law Covenant.

I have posed the question several times as to who the ones are that are not chosen to be the priests and kings, and what happens to them? These ones are also sons of Israel.

Any ideas? :185:

Love,

Steadfast

[Utuna]

"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton </span>

[Tsaphah]

I would agree with this information....because the Law Covenant wasn&#39;t made with just the priests...it was made with the entire nation of Israel at Sinai. Did Moses only mediate for the priests?

So while a group will be chosen in the future out of the sons of Israel in Revelation 7 to be kings and priests with Jesus Christ for 1000 years, it is not implying that the New Covenant was only made with the priests, any more than we can apply that rationale to the Law Covenant.

I have posed the question several times as to who the ones are that are not chosen to be the priests and kings, and what happens to them? These ones are also sons of Israel.

Any ideas? :185:

Love,

Steadfast[/b]

Hi Steadfast,
I think you answered your own question. Just as the people (descendants of Israel) made up the “entire nation of Israel”, the entire nation of the “Israel of God” will be made up of those who acknowledge the ransom. The covenant was made with all who obey and keep Jehovah&#39;s commandments and accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah. (Jn. 1:12-13), (Jn. 3:15-16) It is similar to those who believed in Jehovah and listened to Moses and followed the commandments.

Agape,
Tsaphah

[Tsaphah]

<div class='quotemain'>Hi Utuna,
I will have to get more information to clarify my statements. But, not all of Israel were to become a royal priesthood. Just as all mankind will not be saved. The use of this word, all, is not inclusive of everyone. Just as a certain number were chosen to be priests out of the Israelites, there are only a certain number, 144,000, who will be priests and kings, for the Israel of God. (Rev. 20:6)

I will get back to you with more information. I know this is a very deep issue with many.

Tsaphah

[Utuna]

"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton </span>

[ACLJ]

Hi all,
I still feel that not enough consideration has been given to the point that tha NC & the KC are not the same. (I promise I w&#39;ont harp on about this again after this!)
Yes they are mentioned in the same chapter in Luke, and yes the reader could just take it that they are one and the same. But they are not neccesarily the same,
Christs blood through the ransom enabled the disciples to enter into the NC. but then they were able to pass the wonderful good news of the ransom to others who could then also enter into the NC. The Apostles were also invited to be in the Covenant for a Kingdom, of course others are/will be invited also.
If this is not the case, then OS are just hangers on (probably a bit crude but it makes the point) until the new syst.
Jah & Christ want us to accept the ransom, put faith in Christ become in union with him then we can have a true spiritual link, (or so as not to offend anyone), a better spiritual link with Jah.

John 14: 6
⁶ Jesus said to him: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 4: 23,24

²³ Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. ²⁴ God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth."

Mention spirit in the KH and usually the Anointed come to mind, is this a veil that Satan happily uses to hold people back from the truth? Jah could well allow that to be the case.
Also consider Ro 11:30-33; For just as YOU were once disobedient to God but have now been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so also these now have been disobedient with mercy resulting to YOU, that they themselves also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut them all up together in disobedience, that he might show all of them mercy.

33 O the depth of God&#39;s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How unsearchable his judgments [are] and past tracing out his ways [are]!

Of course we have to find a way to accept the ransom and be united with Christ & Jehovah.
We have to find Jehovahs way of doing this for it to have any credence.
The WTS has certainly been used by Jehovah in gathering people together and teaching truths from the bible, and is probably still being used today in some way.
however as time marches on, Jehovah will make the true path manifest through Christ & hopefully we all will find that true path, but even if we fail now for whatever reason we will have our chance when he returns and all are made to realize who he is and what he stands for, we are already somewhere on the path, Let&#39;s pray for guidance to stay on the path and to submit to Christ.
Not what we will, but what Jah & Christ will.

Jehovah&#39;s blessing on all.

AcLJ

[ACLJ]

hi ACLJ


"part. (I was a sHope you haven&#39;t already decided I&#39;m a nut. All this hasn&#39;t just come from me; it&#39;s been gradually passed to me by an anointed Bro. with much anguish and upheaval on my taunch Org man B4)."

i recognise you as one who desires to be Christs follower, do not let anyone or anything stop you from pursuing that goal my friend.
the nc is not a closed covenant it is an open covenant for all who feel called to it
the wto have simply hijacked it and closed it down.

isaiah 56 is worth pondering and causes me some conflict in my understanding of the application of the nc

whichever view is correct we must all be to united and ready to serve christ as a brother if called and if not called we must live our lives with faith and conviction as we await the return of Christ and the kingdom of God.

elihu



read isaiah56[/b]

Elihu,

Thats a great portion of scrip most encouraging, and for me strengthens my faith and conviction.
Many thanks
AcLJ

[uglyandthin]

<div class='quotemain'>hi ACLJ


"part. (I was a sHope you haven&#39;t already decided I&#39;m a nut. All this hasn&#39;t just come from me; it&#39;s been gradually passed to me by an anointed Bro. with much anguish and upheaval on my taunch Org man B4)."

i recognise you as one who desires to be Christs follower, do not let anyone or anything stop you from pursuing that goal my friend.
the nc is not a closed covenant it is an open covenant for all who feel called to it
the wto have simply hijacked it and closed it down.

isaiah 56 is worth pondering and causes me some conflict in my understanding of the application of the nc

whichever view is correct we must all be to united and ready to serve christ as a brother if called and if not called we must live our lives with faith and conviction as we await the return of Christ and the kingdom of God.

elihu



read isaiah56[/b]

Elihu,

Thats a great portion of scrip most encouraging, and for me strengthens my faith and conviction.
Many thanks
AcLJ
[/b][/quote]


Hi All:

I have enjoyed this discussion very much. There have been excellant arguments posed on both sides, very good indeed, thanks to all who participated. I understand that the Covenant that Jesus made with his blood is the Master of all covenants and acts as a cover for any and all covenants that preceed it. It acts as a cover, much like the cover over the compartment of the ark of the covenant is a representation of who and what Jesus is, which was also presided over by two large and assuming cherubs. One of my questions is, since they are mentioned in such a grand way, what is the function of the two cherubs, if any, in the salvation plot and are they involved in any convenants?

¹⁵ So that is why he is a mediator of a new covenant, in order that, because a death has occurred for [their] release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, the ones who have been called might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance. ¹⁶ For where there is a covenant, the death of the [human] covenanter needs to be furnished. ¹⁷ For a covenant is valid over dead [victims], since it is not in force at any time while the [human] covenanter is living. ¹⁸ Consequently neither was the former [covenant] inaugurated without blood. ¹⁹ For when every commandment according to the Law had been spoken by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of the young bulls and of the goats with water and scarlet wool and hyssop and sprinkled the book itself and all the people, ²⁰ saying: “This is the blood of the covenant that God has laid as a charge upon YOU.” ²¹ And he sprinkled the tent and all the vessels of the public service likewise with the blood. ²² Yes, nearly all things are cleansed with blood according to the Law, and unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place. Hebrews 9:15-22

1. (cher´ub). An angelic creature of high rank having special duties, distinguished from the order of seraphs. The first of the 91 times they are mentioned in the Bible is at Genesis 3:24; after God’s driving Adam and Eve out of Eden, cherubs (Heb., keru·vim´) were posted at the E entrance with a flaming blade of a sword “to guard the way to the tree of life.” Whether more than two were stationed there is not disclosed.

Representative figures of cherubs were included in the furnishings of the tabernacle set up in the wilderness. Rising above each end of the Ark’s cover were two cherubs of hammered gold. They were facing each other and bowing toward the cover in an attitude of worship. Each had two wings that spread upward and screened over the cover in a guarding and protecting manner. (Ex 25:10-21; 37:7-9) Also, the inner covering of tent cloths for the tabernacle and the curtain dividing the Holy from the Most Holy had embroidered cherub figures.—Ex 26:1, 31; 36:8, 35.

These were not grotesque figures fashioned after the monstrous winged images worshiped by pagan nations round about, as some contend. According to the unanimous testimony of ancient Jewish tradition (the Bible is silent on this matter), these cherubs had human form. They were finest works of art, representing angelic creatures of glorious beauty, and were made in every detail “according to . . . the pattern” Moses received from Jehovah himself. (Ex 25:9) The apostle Paul describes them as “glorious cherubs overshadowing the propitiatory cover.” (Heb 9:5) These cherubs were associated with the presence of Jehovah: “And I will present myself to you there and speak with you from above the cover, from between the two cherubs that are upon the ark of the testimony.” (Ex 25:22; Nu 7:89) Hence, Jehovah was said to be “sitting upon [or, between] the cherubs.” (1Sa 4:4; 2Sa 6:2; 2Ki 19:15; 1Ch 13:6; Ps 80:1; 99:1; Isa 37:16) In symbol, the cherubs served as “the representation of the chariot” of Jehovah upon which he rode (1Ch 28:18), and the wings of the cherubs offered both guarding protection and swiftness in travel. So David, in poetic song, described the speed with which Jehovah came to his aid, like one who “came riding upon a cherub and came flying” even “upon the wings of a spirit.”—2Sa 22:11; Ps 18:10.

The detailed architectural plans for Solomon’s magnificent temple called for two huge cherubs in the Most Holy. They were made of oil-tree wood overlaid with gold, each standing ten cubits (4.5 m; 14.6 ft) high. They both stood facing the E on a N-S line running presumably through the center of the room. Although standing ten cubits apart, one wing of each cherub reached to touch the tip of the other’s extended wing in the center of the room, overshadowing the ark of the covenant and its poles, which rested beneath. The outer wings of each cherub touched the N and S walls respectively. Thus the wings of the cherubs spanned the 20-cubit width of the room. (See TEMPLE.) Engraved carvings of cherubs, overlaid with gold, also decorated the walls and doors of the temple. Likewise the sides of the copper water carriages were ornamented with cherubs. (1Ki 6:23-35; 7:29-36; 8:6, 7; 1Ch 28:18; 2Ch 3:7, 10-14; 5:7, 8) In a similar manner, carved cherubs ornamented the walls and doors of the temple that Ezekiel envisioned.—Eze 41:17-20, 23-25.

Ezekiel also relates a number of visions in which symbolic cherubs of unusual description were seen. After speaking of them as “living creatures” (Eze 1:5-28), he later identifies them as “cherubs.” (Eze 9:3; 10:1-22; 11:22) In these pictorial visions the cherubs are intimately associated with the glorious personage of Jehovah and constantly attendant upon him.

In his prophetic book Ezekiel was also told to “lift up a dirge concerning the king of Tyre,” in which he calls the king a glorious covering cherub that was once “in Eden, the garden of God,” but who was stripped of his beauty and made as ashes upon the ground. “This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: . . . ‘You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you. . . . I shall put you as profane out of the mountain of God, and I shall destroy you, O cherub that is covering [“O protecting cherub,” Vg].’”—Eze 28:11-19. Insight Vol 1 pp. 431, 432

My question is twofold. Since it is obvious that God does not interact with imperfect humans unless he does so through a covenant and a mediator of that covenant. What was the covenant that existed prior to the Old Covenant or the Law that God had with man that was also covered by the New Covenant?

Secondly, what role if any do these other two cherubs play in the covenant process? And as a sidepoint, the above information shows that Jehovah uses cherubs in the fulfillment of his purposes, He once used Satan who is termed the "covering cherub" in Ezekiel as an example of a Cherub who previously had a very important position in God&#39;s purpose for man, but no longer does in a good way. If that ever was true, it seems to display an importance of these "other" two cherubs connected with the ark and the Temples arrangement. What is it, and who are they? Can we know? There is one very special angel that we do know. He stands by God, so is of course very important. His name is Gabriel. Could he be one of the other two Cherubs? And if so, who is the third? Do we know him?



¹⁵ Then it came about that, while I myself, Daniel, was seeing the vision and seeking an understanding, why, look! there was standing in front of me someone in appearance like an able-bodied man. ¹⁶ And I began to hear the voice of an earthling man in the midst of the U´lai, and he proceeded to call out and say: “Ga´bri·el, make that one there understand the thing seen.” ¹⁷ So he came beside where I was standing, but when he came I got terrified so that I fell upon my face. And he proceeded to say to me: “Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of [the] end.” ¹⁸ And while he was speaking with me, I had become fast asleep on my face on the earth. So he touched me and made me stand up where I had been standing. ¹⁹ And he went on to say: “Here I am causing you to know what will occur in the final part of the denunciation, because it is for the appointed time of [the] end.



¹⁸ And Zech·a·ri´ah said to the angel: “How am I to be sure of this? For I am aged and my wife is well along in years.” ¹⁹ In reply the angel said to him: “I am Ga´bri·el, who stands near before God, and I was sent forth to speak with you and declare the good news of these things to you. ²⁰ But, look! you will be silent and not able to speak until the day that these things take place, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled in their appointed time.” ²¹ Meanwhile the people continued waiting for Zech·a·ri´ah, and they began to wonder at his delaying in the sanctuary. ²² But when he came out he was not able to speak to them, and they perceived that he had just seen a supernatural sight in the sanctuary; and he kept making signs to them, but remained dumb. ²³ When, now, the days of his public service were fulfilled, he went off to his home.

²⁴ But after these days Elizabeth his wife became pregnant; and she kept herself secluded for five months, saying: ²⁵ “This is the way Jehovah has dealt with me in these days when he has given me his attention to take away my reproach among men.”



²⁶ In her sixth month the angel Ga´bri·el was sent forth from God to a city of Gal´i·lee named Naz´a·reth, ²⁷ to a virgin promised in marriage to a man named Joseph of David’s house; and the name of the virgin was Mary. ²⁸ And when he went in before her he said: “Good day, highly favored one, Jehovah is with you.” ²⁹ But she was deeply disturbed at the saying and began to reason out what sort of greeting this might be. ³⁰ So the angel said to her: “Have no fear, Mary, for you have found favor with God; ³¹ and, look! you will conceive in your womb and give birth to a son, and you are to call his name Jesus. ³² This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High; and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father, ³³ and he will rule as king over the house of Jacob forever, and there will be no end of his kingdom.”

³⁴ But Mary said to the angel: “How is this to be, since I am having no intercourse with a man?” ³⁵ In answer the angel said to her: “Holy spirit will come upon you, and power of the Most High will overshadow you. For that reason also what is born will be called holy, God’s Son. ³⁶ And, look! Elizabeth your relative has also herself conceived a son, in her old age, and this is the sixth month for her, the so-called barren woman; ³⁷ because with God no declaration will be an impossibility.” ³⁸ Then Mary said: “Look! Jehovah’s slave girl! May it take place with me according to your declaration.” At that the angel departed from her.

²⁶


Just as a side point I thought it was interesting if you look up the meaning of the name Gabriel. It means "Able Bodied one of God" or "like an able bodied man"



<div align="center">GABRIEL</div>
(Ga´bri·el) [Able-Bodied One of God].

The only holy angel other than Michael named in the Bible; the only materialized angel to give his name. Twice Gabriel appeared to Daniel: first, near the Ulai River “in the third year of the kingship of Belshazzar” to explain Daniel’s vision of the he-goat and the ram (Da 8:1, 15-26); and second, “in the first year of Darius” the Mede, to deliver the prophecy concerning the “seventy weeks.” (Da 9:1, 20-27) To Zechariah the priest, Gabriel brought the good news that he and his aging wife Elizabeth would have a son, John (the Baptizer). (Lu 1:11-20) To Mary, the virgin girl betrothed to Joseph, Gabriel declared: “Good day, highly favored one, Jehovah is with you.” He then told her that she would give birth to a son, Jesus—he “will be called Son of the Most High; and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father, . . . and there will be no end of his kingdom.”—Lu 1:26-38.

From the Bible record it is learned that Gabriel is a high-ranking angelic creature in close association with the heavenly court, one “who stands near before God”; that he was one “sent forth” by God to deliver special messages to servants of Jehovah here on earth (Lu 1:19, 26); that his personal envisioned or materialized form was, true to the meaning of his name, “like an able-bodied man.”—Da 8:15.

Does Gabriel&#39;s name suggest that perhaps he like Jesus was also a man who walked the earth in flesh and blood, helping in the outworking of God&#39;s purpose? If it does, who is the other angel portrayed by the second Cherub who&#39;s wings extended over the ark of the Covenant? What was his role? So perhaps we have 3 angelic ones who play a significant role in the outworking of God&#39;s purpose. Just how extensive was this role. We know that Jesus role was paramount. But what of his two Cherub brothers? Probably nothing, Huh?



Remember Jacob&#39;s ladder...


¹⁰ And Jacob continued on his way out from Be´er-she´ba and kept going to Ha´ran. ¹¹ In time he came across a place and set about spending the night there because the sun had set. So he took one of the stones of the place and set it as his head supporter and lay down in that place. ¹² And he began to dream, and, look! there was a ladder stationed upon the earth and its top reaching up to the heavens; and, look! there were God’s angels ascending and descending on it. ¹³ And, look! there was Jehovah stationed above it, and he proceeded to say:

“I am Jehovah the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac. The land upon which you are lying, to you I am going to give it and to your seed. Genesis 28:11-13

Could this vision picture at least the three angels who are inextricably tied into the salvation of man coming to the earth, accomplishing a portion of God&#39;s purpose and then returning to the heavens?



Gives new meaning to Jesus words to Nicodemus at John 3:9-15 when he said these words...

⁹ In answer Nic·o·de´mus said to him: "How can these things come about?" ¹⁰ In answer Jesus said to him: "Are you a teacher of Israel and yet do not know these things? ¹¹ Most truly I say to you, What we know we speak and what we have seen we bear witness of, but YOU people do not receive the witness we give. ¹² If I have told YOU earthly things and yet YOU do not believe, how will YOU believe if I tell YOU heavenly things? ¹³ Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man. ¹⁴ And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up, ¹⁵ that everyone believing in him may have everlasting life.

If God is able to transfer the life of Michael to the earth, is it that far of a stretch that he could and has done this at other times to accomplish his will? Gabriel&#39;s name seems to suggest that he has. Just my thoughts.

</span></span>
uglyandthin

[TheMdC]

There are more Bible examples of angels who came to earth and materialized visibly as men than there are of angels who came to earth and remained invisible. It&#39;s a fair guess to think that at least one of these may have been Michael.

In fact, I&#39;m going to jump out on a limb and ask how do we really know that their nature is invisible and that they sometimes materialize? Could it not just as likely be that their nature is visible and that they somehow become invisible when necessary? I mean, after all, there are many descriptions of the appearance of angels in the Bible. There are few descriptions of invisible beings doing anything at all. Seems they&#39;re visible more than they&#39;re invisible.

[Tsaphah]

<div class='quotemain'>Dear Tsaphah,

I&#39;m gonna wait for your addendum before arguying any further.

---------------------------------------------------------
<span style="font-family:Book Antiqua">Dear Utuna,
I do not wish to get into an argument about this subject. Let us have an intelligent discussion instead. Hopefully we will meet on common ground. As I said in my prior post, this is a deep subject that has interested many, for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

Here is what I have found in my search for information pertaining to the meaning of Ex. 19:6. First of all we must have an understanding of the word or term which is translated in English as “priest”, “priests”. There are three similar words used in the Hebrew Scriptures that are translated as “priest”. They are: kahan, kohen, and kahen. There is another, kamar which only refers to idolatrous priests and occur only three times. The words we are most concerned with are the former. They are all spelled with the same three Hebrew letters of k, h, n. These letters are pronounced as kaw, hay, and naw. What changes the spelling of the Hebrew is the vowels that are placed between the main letters. I am including Strong&#39;s numbers. The letter H indicates that it is Hebrew.

The first of these, kahan(H3547), a verb, is described by Strong as “a primitive root, apparently meaning to mediate in religious services.” The second, kohen(H3548), a masculine noun and active participle of (H3547) and deals with position held, such as priest-king, pagan priest, priests of Jehovah, Levitical priests, etc. The third spelling, kahen(H3549) is (Aramaic) a masculine noun and corresponds with (H3548), which appears only in Ezra. This may be due to the fact that in Ezra 4:7 it says that the letter to Artaxerxes was written in Aramaic.

Another word that derives from kahan(H3547) is khnnh(H3550) and many English speaking peoples have either heard or used it. They have said, “He’s the big kahuna.” It is actually “kehunnah”, pronounced as keh-hoon-naw. It is translated in English as “priesthood”. What is interesting is that kahuna is a Hawaiian word meaning… “Priest”. So, big kahuna would mean Chief or High Priest. So let us get back to the scriptures and an explaination and understanding of these words.

We will discuss the word that is used the most in the Hebrew scriptures and which appears earliest. This is “kohen”(H3548) and it first appears in Genesis 14:18 where we are introduced to Melchizedek. Searching through many reference materials, I found this information which also quotes Gesenius. As Gesenius appears to be the foremost authority and scholar on the subject of the ancient languages, I use his writings quite often.

“The primitive meaning of the Hebrew word is not easily determined, because the verb, in its radical form, nowhere occurs. Gesenius observes: ‘In Arabic it denotes to prophesy, to foretell as a soothsayer, and among the heathen Arabs the substantive bore the latter signification; also that of a mediator or middle person, who interposed in any business, which seems to be its radical meaning, as prophets and priests were regarded as mediators between men and the Deity. In the earliest families of the race of Shem, the offices of priest and prophet were undoubtedly united; so that the word originally denoted both, and at last the Hebrew idiom kept one part of the idea, and the Arabic another’ (Hebraisches und Chaldaisches Handworterbuch, Leipz., 1823). It is worthy of remark, that all the persons who are recorded in Scripture as having legally performed priestly acts, but who were not strictly sacerdotal, come under the definition of a prophet, viz., per¬sons who received supernatural communications of knowledge generally, as Adam, Abraham (Gen. 20:7), Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Job, Samuel, Elijah (comp. Luke 1:70). The primary meaning of the Hebrew word is regarded by Kimchi, Castell, Giggeius, Ernesti, Simonis, Tittmann, and Eichhorn, to be, the rendering of honorable and dignified service, like that of ministers of state to their sovereign. Nearly similar is the idea adopted by Cocceius and Schultens, viz., drawing near, as to a king or any supreme authority. The following definition of a priest may be found sufficiently comprehensive:-A man who officiates or transacts with God on behalf of others, statedly, or for the occasion.” - The Popular and Critical Bible Encyclopaedia V-3, Pg. 1376.

If we use the above idea and use of the word, then the nation of Israel would become a nation of priests to the other nations. Not as individual priests, but as a nation picked by Jehovah to represent him on the earth. They were to set the example of what true worship was and how Jehovah wanted mankind live. Here is a modern translation of the Septuagint of Ex. 19:5-6. “Now, if you will listen to what I tell you and keep My Sacred Agreement, you will be a special people to Me that will be higher than all other nations. And because the whole earth is Mine, you will become a holy nation and My Royal Priesthood. ‘Now, [go] and tell this to the children of Israel!’ ”

This statement from Jehovah to Moses preceded the appointment of Aaron as priest to Jehovah. (Ex. 28:1) Up to this point, the elder men and heads of families acted as priests to Jehovah in offering sacrifices and gifts. The Hebrew word used at Ex. 28:1 is kahan(H3547), because Aaron was to “mediate in religious services” for the nation of Israel. The family heads were no longer to carry out sacrifices to Jehovah. The arrangement had changed now that Jehovah was to dwell in the tabernacle that he instructed Moses to construct. The form of worship for Jehovah had become formalized. Why? We have to read all the verses from Ex. 19:5 to Ex. 40 to get the sense of how important it was to worship Jehovah as He commands. Part of the reason was the fact that the Israelites would be entering a land that was full of idolatry, false worship and beliefs. Remember that the women and children were not included as priests.

This was a pattern for what was to become the reality that Paul speaks of in his letter to the Hebrews. We as Jehovah’s Witnesses must take on that pattern and be representatives of what is required of Christian witnesses of Jehovah and Christ Jesus our High Priest. We live in a world much like the ancient land of the Philistines. We have to be on guard not to take on the false worship, or be induced to partake of the false ideas of Christendom that is so prevalent in modern society.

Another thing that we must remember is that the letters written by the apostles to the congregations were for the anointed members at that time. The writers never thought that these words would be used by thousands of future believers in Christ Jesus; the great crowd. Just as the ancient nation of Israel were not to be individually anointed and chosen as priests, most of us are not anointed to be priests and kings in the Kingdom of God.

Let me leave this at this point. I hope this will help others in understanding this subject and encourage them to not only read the scriptures daily but to study them and become “mature people” and “through use have their perceptive powers trained to distinguish both right and wrong.” (Heb. 5:14)

The undeserved kindness be with all of YOU. (Heb. 13:23)

Tsaphah

[truthseeker]

<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>Dear Tsaphah,

I&#39;m gonna wait for your addendum before arguying any further.

---------------------------------------------------------
Love truthseeker

[truthseeker]

Love truthseeker

[Jinnvisible]

If they teach that Christ is the mediator only between God and anointed so therefor why do all JWs ("non-anointed) pray in the name of Jesus if he&#39;s not their mediator as well? …………….

"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" - 1Tim 2:5 English standard

Looking forward to who understood this doctrine and meditated on it as to what WT taught.[/b]


<div class='quotemain'><span style="font-family:Garamond">Joseph was steward of God&#39;s purpose, a faith and discreet slave. He was really a mediator for Pharaoh, a prime minister. We can really see that this was in at least two aspects. He stewarded God&#39;s interests in the sense that he cared and provided for his brothers, became lord over his brothers, the sons of Jacob the heads of the twelve tribes, the Hebrew `founding fathers`. Yet he also mediated for pharaoh over all Egypt and the rest of the world.

[watchman]

Therefore is it wrong to think of perfect Adam as a son of God? Even if the bible may not specifically state in those terms I think it is entirely appropriate to consider Adam when he was created as a new kind of son for Jehovah.[/b]

Actually, the Bible specifically says that Adam was a son of God. In the 3rd chapter of Luke it gives the genealogy of Jesus&#39; adoptive father all the way back to Adam and his Father.

[son] of Me‧thu′se‧lah,
[son] of E′noch,
[son] of Ja′red,
[son] of Ma‧ha′la‧le‧el,
[son] of Ca‧i′nan,
38*[son] of E′nosh,
[son] of Seth,
[son] of Adam,
[son] of God


watchman

[Jinnvisible]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that one.

[James]

<div class='quotemain'>Therefore is it wrong to think of perfect Adam as a son of God? Even if the bible may not specifically state in those terms I think it is entirely appropriate to consider Adam when he was created as a new kind of son for Jehovah.[/b]

Actually, the Bible specifically says that Adam was a son of God. In the 3rd chapter of Luke it gives the genealogy of Jesus&#39; adoptive father all the way back to Adam and his Father.

[son] of Me‧thu′se‧lah,
[son] of E′noch,
[son] of Ja′red,
[son] of Ma‧ha′la‧le‧el,
[son] of Ca‧i′nan,
38 [son] of E′nosh,
[son] of Seth,
[son] of Adam,
[son] of God


watchman



[/b][/quote]

Hello watchman,

Isn&#39;t that referring to Jesus being son of God? Surely, not all of Jesus&#39; forefathers were considered &#39;sons of God&#39; in the context of his lineage?

James

[watchman]

Isn&#39;t that referring to Jesus being son of God? Surely, not all of Jesus&#39; forefathers were considered &#39;sons of God&#39; in the context of his lineage?

James[/b]

It is referring to Adam being a direct creation of God, through the Word. Everyone in existence had a father, everyone except The Father, of course. In the case of Adam, Jehovah was his father, just like you and I have fathers.

watchman

[Tsaphah]

Jinnvisible brings up some very good points in this post. He also raises some good questions. First, the differential meaning of the term mediator. So, let us look at some of the original word meanings in Hebrew and Greek.

The numbers in parentheses are Strong’s numbers. The letter G=Greek and the letter H=Hebrew.

The Greek term for mediator is “mesites”(G3316), having the meaning of:

1. one who intervenes between two, either in order to make or restore peace and friendship, or form a compact, or for ratifying a covenant

2. a medium of communication, arbitrator

Mesites is made up of two words, “mesos=in the midst or middle” and “eimi”=to go. Here is a commentary of “mesites” from Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. You must remember that this is written by a person who believes in the Trinity. Take this explanation with this in mind. Although he uses the word Deity we can think of this as being God-like or of a divine nature.

“MESITES, lit., a go-between (from mesos, middle, and eimi, to go), is used in two ways in the N.T., (a) one who mediates between two parties with a view to producing peace, as in 1 Tim. 2:5, though more than mere mediatorship is in view, for the salvation of men necessi¬tated that the Mediator should Himself possess the nature and attributes of Him towards whom He acts, and should likewise participate in the nature of those for whom He acts (sin apart); only by being possessed both of Deity and humanity could He comprehend the claims of the one and the needs of the other; further, the claims and the needs could be met only by One who, Himself being proved sinless, would offer Himself an expiatory sacrifice on behalf of men; (b) one who acts as a guarantee so as to secure something which otherwise would not be obtained. Thus in Heb. 8 :6; 9:15; 12:24 Christ is the Surety of “the better covenant,” “the new covenant,” guaranteeing its terms for His people.

In Gal. 3:19 Moses is spoken of as a mediator, and the statement is made that “a mediator is not a mediator of one,” ver. 20, that is, of one party. Here the contrast is between the promise given to Abraham and the giving of the Law. The Law was a covenant enacted between God and the Jewish people, requiring fulfillment by both parties. But with the promise to Abraham, all the obligations were assumed by God, which is implied in the statement, “but God is one.” In the Sept., Job 9:33, ‘daysman’.”

Here in Job 9:33 the NASB translates the Hebrew word, ykh, yakach(H3198), pronounced yaw-kahh, as umpire. The KJV uses daysman. “There is no umpire between us, Who may lay his hand upon us both.”

The meaning of the word is: to prove, decide, judge, rebuke, reprove, correct, be right. Or, to adjudge, appoint or to reason together. The Septuagint translates the Hebrew word with the Greek as “mesites”(G3316)

In Paul’s letter to the Hebrews, he uses another verb form of this word, “mesiteuo”(G3315), pronounced mess-it-you-oh, having the meaning of:
1. to act as a mediator between litigating or covenanting parties
a. to accomplish something by interposing between two parties
b. to mediate
2. act as a sponsor or surety
a. to pledge one&#39;s self, give surety

Although Paul uses “mesiteuo” at Heb. 6:17, “So, when God wanted to show the heirs of the promise how unchangeable His words are, He agreed with an oath.” This particular word is only used here and nowhere else in the Greek scriptures. The other times Paul uses the word “mesites”(G3316) when speaking of a mediator. He uses it two times at Galatians, 3:19-20, one time at 1 Timothy 2:15, and three times in Hebrews, 8:6, 9:15, and 12:24.

We must also look at some of the types and antitypes that are given.
When Paul wrote to the Galatians about a mediator, he was making reference to Moses, as the type, and Jesus Christ as the antitype. This reference is verse 3:19, when he speaks of “it was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator.” Read Exodus 19. Moses is the type while being the mediator for the Israelites. Moses represents ALL of the Israelites. Verse 8 states, “all the people answered unanimously”, when Moses set forth all the words that Jehovah commanded. Moses was the anointed, chosen representative by Jehovah. Moses prefigures Jesus Christ, the antitype.

So who does Jesus act as mediator for and represent? (1 Tim. 2:5) Although it says, “between God and men”, does that leave out women and children? Of course not! The Greek word used here is anthropos, meaning a human being, whether male or female. Paul is saying that ALL humans are represented by Jesus Christ as a mediator between them and Jehovah God, just as Moses was the mediator of ALL Israelites and Jehovah God.

I think the most important scripture to explain the relationship of mediator, and sons of God is where Paul writes to the Galatians. When Paul refers to “sons of God”, is he only speaking of males? Of course not, if you read verse 3:28. This verse goes back to what Jesus said in answer to the Sadducees. (Luk. 20:27-40) What does it take to inherit the Kingdom of God? (Jn. 3:15-16, 20:29, 31)

Jude 24-25

Tsaphah

[Utuna]

Dear all,

Here are some excerpts from the Encyclopedia Judaica (entry Covenant) who will help you to have a better understanding of what the Old and New Covenants are:

"These are the covenant with Abraham (Gen. 15, 17) and the covenant with David (II Sam. 7; cf. Ps. 89), which are concerned respectively with the gift of the land and the gift of kingship and dynasty. In contradistinction to the Mosaic covenants, which are of an obligatory type, the Abrahamic-Davidic covenants belong to the promissory type. God swears to Abraham to give the land to his descendants and similarly promises to David to establish his dynasty without imposing any obligations on them. Although their loyalty to God is presupposed, it is not made a condition for God&#39;s keeping His promise. On the contrary, the Davidic promise as formulated in the vision of Nathan (II Sam. 7) contains a clause in which the unconditional nature of the gift is explicitly stated (II Sam. 7:13–15). By the same token, the covenant with the Patriarchs is considered as valid forever (ʿad ʿolam). Even when Israel sins and is to be severely punished, God intervenes to help because He "will not break his covenant" (Lev. 26:43)."

"The royal grants in the Ancient Near East as well as the covenants with Abraham
and David are gifts bestowed upon individuals who distinguished themselves in loyal service to their masters. Abraham is promised the land because he obeyed God and followed His mandate (Gen. 26:5; cf. 22:16–18), and similarly David is rewarded with dynastic posterity because he served God with truth, righteous -ness, and loyalty (I Kings 3:6; 9:4; 11:4, 6; 14:8; 15:3)."

"In the period of the judges the tribes resisted kingship because of the prevailing belief that God was the real King of Israel and that the proclamation of an earthly king would constitute a betrayal. This is clearly expressed in Gideon&#39;s reply to the people&#39;s offer of kingship (Judg. 8:22–23),but is even more salient in Samuel&#39;s denunciation of the request for a king (I Sam. 8:6–7; 10:18ff.; 12:17). Earthly kingship in Israel was finally accepted, but this was the outcome of a compromise: David&#39;s kingship was conceived as granted to him by the Great Suzerain (II Sam. 7, see above). The king and the people alike were thus considered as vassals of God, the real Overlord (I Sam. 12:14, 24–25; II Kings 11:17)."

"The lands and the kingdoms of the latter were conceived as feudal grants bestowed on them by the great suzerain, in exchange for the obligation of loyalty to the master. Israel&#39;s concept of its relationship with God had a similar basis. The Israelites believed that they owed their land and royal dynasty to their suzerain, God. Furthermore, as the relationship between the suzerain and the vassal has to be based on a written document, i.e., a treaty, so the relationship between God and Israel had to be expressed in written form. It is not surprising, therefore, that the tablets of the covenant played so important a role in the religion of Israel. As already noted, the tablets had to be deposited in the sanctuary at the feet of the deity, a procedure known from the Hittite treaties. Moreover, it appears that, as in the judicial sphere, the written document expresses the validity of the given relationship. When the covenant is no longer in force the document must be destroyed. Thus the worship of the golden calf, which signifies the breaking of the covenant, is followed by the breaking of the tablets by Moses, the mediator of the covenant (Ex. 32). Indeed, the term for canceling a contract in Babylonian legal literature is "to break the tablet" (tuppam hepū). Following the judicial pattern, the renewal of the relationship must be effected by writing new tablets, which explains why new ones had to be written after the sin of the golden calf, and why the ritual decalogue was repeated in Exodus 34:17–26 (cf. Ex. 23:10–19). Renewal of a covenant with a vassal – after a break in the relationship – – by means of writing new tablets is an attested fact in Hittite political life.̆"

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"The Covenant in Prophecy

This new examination of the covenant elucidates basic phenomena in Israel&#39;s prophetic literature. The admonitory speeches of the prophets are often formulated in the style of a lawsuit (Isa. 1:2ff.; Jer. 2:4ff; Hos. 4:1ff.; Micah 6:1ff.). God sues the people of Israel in the presence of witnesses such as covenant heaven and earth, and mountains (Isa. 1:2; Micah 6:1–2), witnesses which also appear in the Ancient Near Eastern treaties and in the Deuteronomy covenant. International strife in the Ancient Near East provides parallels to prophetic denunciations; for example, before going out to battle with the Babylonian king Kaštiliaš, the Assyrian king accuses the latter of betrayal and violation of the treaty between them, and as proof he reads the treaty in a loud voice before the god Šamaš. In a similar way the prophetic lawsuit represents God&#39;s accusation of Israel before He proceeds to destroy the people for violating the covenant. This is clearly expressed in Amos 4:6–11, where a series of punishments, similar to those enumerated in Leviticus 26, is proclaimed, in the nature of a warning, before the final judgment or encounter (cf. Amos 4:12: "Be ready to meet your God, O Israel"). The warnings in Israelite prophecy are reminiscent of the curses in the Ancient Near Eastern treaties. Thus the calamities predicted in the prose sermons of Jeremiah are paralleled in contemporary treaty literature. The most prominent curses are (1) corpses devoured by the birds of heaven and the beasts of the earth; (2) cessation of joyful sounds; (3) exile; (4) desolation of the land and its becoming a habitation for animals; (5) dishonoring of the dead; (6) children being eaten by their parents; (7) the drinking of poisonous water and the eating of wormwood; and (8) cessation of the sound of the millstones and the light of the oven (or the candle). The treaty curses aim to portray the calamities that will befall the vassal as a consequence of his violation of the treaty. This is usually expressed through literary similes and also by a dramatic enactment of the punishment which will be visited on the transgressor. Both devices were in fact employed by the prophets. In the prophetic literature also the similes are drawn from various spheres of life, as for example Amos 2:3; 3:12; 5:19; 9:9. The dramatization of the punishment is also very close in form and content to the dramatic enactment in the treaties; compare, for example, the Sefire treaty, "As this calf is cleft so may Matiʾel and his nobles be cleft," which is reminiscent of Jeremiah 20:2–4; 34:18 – "I will make the men who have transgressed my covenant… [like] the calf which they cut in two and passed between its parts."

The Origin of the Covenant

The idea of a covenant between a deity and a people is unknown from other religions and cultures. It seems that the covenantal idea was a special feature of the religion of Israel, the only one to demand exclusive loyalty and preclude the possibility of dual or multiple loyalties; so the stipulation in political treaties demanding exclusive fealty to one king corresponds strikingly with the religious belief in one single, exclusive deity.

The prophets, especially Hosea, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel, expressed this idea of exclusive loyalty by speaking of the relationship between God and Israel as one of husband and wife, which in itself is also considered covenantal (cf. above and especially Ezek. 16:8). Although the idea of marital love between God and Israel is not mentioned explicitly in the Pentateuch, it seems to be present in a latent form. Following other gods is threatened by the statement: "For I the Lord your God am a
jealous God" (Ex. 20:5; Deut. 5:9; cf. Ex. 34:14; Josh. 24:19). The root ( קנא , qnʾ, "jealous") is in fact used in Numbers 5:14 in the technical sense of a husband who is jealous of his wife. Similarly the verb used in the Pentateuch for disloyalty is zanahʾaḥarei, "to whore after." Furthermore, the formula expressing the covenantal relationship between God and Israel, "you will be my people and I will be your God" (Lev. 26:12; Deut. 29:12, etc.), is a legal formula taken from the sphere of marriage, as attested in various legal documents from the Ancient Near East (cf. Hos. 2:4). The relationship of the vassal to his suzerain or of the wife to her husband leaves no place for double loyalty, and they are therefore perfect metaphors for loyalty in a monotheistic religion.

The concept of the kingship of God in Israel also seems to have contributed to the conception of Israel as the vassal of God. It is true that the idea of the kingship of God was prevalent throughout the Ancient Near East; nevertheless, there is an important difference between the Israelite notion of divine kingship and the corresponding belief of other nations. Israel adopted the idea long before establishing the human institution of kingship. Consequently, for hundreds of years the only kingship recognized and institutionalized in Israel was the kingship of God. During the period of the judges YHWH was actually the King of Israel (cf. Judg. 8:23; I Sam. 8:7; 10:19) and was not, as in other religions of the Ancient Near East, the image of the earthly king."

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"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton