Some Revelation Questions

[Marque100]

Just some random/rough questions*

1. The first part of the book of Revelation writes about a number of different churches/congregations.* I always thought this was discussing the past, but Rev 3:10 church of Philadelphia – says that they will be “kept safe from the time of trouble which is coming upon the whole world, to test all the people on earth” – if this is the past then those people are already long dead. So this must be a future church.

2. Rev 2:13 – mentions Pergamum, where Satan lives/has his throne.* Is this literal,or was it ment to emphasise the level of persecution the Christians living there experienced?

3. Four Horse men of the Apocalypse.* Rev 6:2 mentions the white horse/rider held abow and wears a crown – is this really Jesus or an imposter?* Jesus is depicted as riding a white horse but only when he comes with his angels right at the end – Rev 19:11 he has a sword (not a bow) and wears many crowns (not just one).*

4. Trumpet blasts/ 7 Bowls of Gods Anger / 2 Witnesses.* These three appear to have a number of plagues/woes in common, are they the same thing? *Also,with all the different plagues/woes happening with each trumpet/bowl, I don’t see how there could be many people left alive by the time we get to the last ones (5,6,7).

5. Rev 9:3 - The Locusts that come out of the abyss; are these demons/evil spirits? Surely nothing good can come out of the abyss.* As the scripture says, the locusts of the abyss are the 5^th woe (the first of the final three –5,6,7) “Oh horror! horror! How horrible it will be for all who live on earth when the sound comes from the trumpet that the other three angles must blow”Rev 8:13

6. Rev 9:6 “During the five months those men will seek death, but will not find it; they will want to die, but death will flee from them” – So, does this mean that these men are prevented from killing themselves, are they temporarily (5 months) immortal?

7. Rev 9:11 King of the abyss –“Abaddon/Apolloyon (The Destroyer) – is that Satan? *1 Corinthians 10:10 & Hebrews 11:28 also mention “the destroyer”.

8. Rev 12:14 – The “Woman” will be kept safe from the serpent attack for 3.5 years(42 months).* I assume that the “woman” is Gods people/organisation on earth? *Rev 13:5 now says the “beast” is allowed to fight against Gods people and to defeat them 42 months (3.5 years) – So we have a 7 year period, the first half of that time Gods people are protected, then for the final 3.5 years the protection is taken away and they are persecuted/attacked/defeated.

9. During that final 3.5 years “the heathen who will trample on the holy city for 42 months” the “two witnesses will proclaim Gods message” – are these two witnesses individual humans?

M.

[Tsaphah]

Just some random/rough questions*

1. The first part of the book of Revelation writes about a number of different churches/congregations.* I always thought this was discussing the past, but Rev 3:10 church of Philadelphia – says that they will be “kept safe from the time of trouble which is coming upon the whole world, to test all the people on earth” – if this is the past then those people are already long dead. So this must be a future church.

2. Rev 2:13 – mentions Pergamum, where Satan lives/has his throne.* Is this literal,or was it ment to emphasise the level of persecution the Christians living there experienced?

3. Four Horse men of the Apocalypse.* Rev 6:2 mentions the white horse/rider held abow and wears a crown – is this really Jesus or an imposter?* Jesus is depicted as riding a white horse but only when he comes with his angels right at the end – Rev 19:11 he has a sword (not a bow) and wears many crowns (not just one).*

M.[/b]

Hello Marque100,
At this time I will only address the first three questions. This will take some time to write in a manner that can be easily understood. I will attempt to answer each of your questions. I'll try to address a few at a time. These questions cover subjects that are volatile. They tend to excite some people who have a certain mindset about what they believe they represent. One thing we must remember about these writings, they were written to a specific “ekklesia”= church/congregation. The Greek word is a combination or words; “ek = out of, from, by, away from + kaleo = to call, to call out loudly. a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly.”This is according to Strong's numbers and explanation of the Greek term.

According to W.E. Vine, he says, “EKKLESIA, from ek, out of, and klesis, a calling (kaleo, to call), was used among the Greeks of a body of citizens gathered to discuss the affairs of State, Acts 19:39. In the Sept. it is used to designate the gathering of Israel, summoned for any definite purpose, or a gathering regarded as representative of the whole nation. In Acts 7:38 it is used of Israel; in 19:32, 41, of a riotous mob. It has two applications to companies of Christians, (a) to the whole company of the redeemed throughout the present era, the company of which Christ said, "I will build My Church," Matt. 16:18, and which is further described as "the Church which is His Body," Eph. 1:22; 5:23, ( b ) in the singular number (e.g., Matt. 18:17, RN. marg., "congregation"), to a company consisting of professed believers, e.g., Acts 20:28; 1 Cor. I:2; Gal 1:13; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:1; 1 Tim. 3:5, and in the plural, with reference to churches in a district.
There is an apparent exception in the R.V. of Acts 9:31, where, while the A.V. has "churches," the singular seems to point to a district; but the reference is clearly to the church as it was in Jerusalem, from which it had just been scattered, 8:1. Again, in Rom. 16:23, that Gaius was the host of "the whole church," simply suggests that the assembly in Corinth had been accustomed to meet in his house, where also Paul was entertained.”

There are examples in the Bible that are used as a type and antitype. In this case we are seeing both. The church/congregation in these cases are being used as examples of peoples personalities. If you notice, there are no individuals being used. These bodies of people have a particular mind set or heart condition. Although they have good qualities, there are also qualities that are lacking in Christian conduct. We are being warned that these qualities must be changed. The church/congregation in Philadelphia, and the others, is used as an example for that time and for future times. The problems they faced and were going to face, were being mentioned. There was a fulfillment for those in Philadelphia that was carried out during the Roman occupation. There will be a future fulfillment during the reign of the coming eighth king.

Rev 2:13

We may want to look at a few scriptures to get a better understanding of this. A throne is considered to be the seat of government, authority, power, or rule. (Ps 11:4, 47:8), (Mt 5:34, 23:22) The earth is considered to be the throne of Satan. (Lk 4:6-7) Yes, Christians will suffer the wrath of Satan. (Rev 12:12) Satan's goal is to destroy everything. He wants nothing to be left.

Rev 6:2

Yes, Jesus/Michael is the rider on the white horse. Some say it's the Lone Ranger, “Hi Ho Silver, Away!” (Sorry for the caustic humor.) Revelation is not sequential. One thing about this letter by John that gives it credence as being inspired, is the fact that it is written very similar to other prophecies and scriptures. It begins scenes in the vision/dream with summaries, and then fills in the details of the vision/dream scenes. How can we determine that the rider is Christ Jesus/Michael? In the Bible, the majority of places where horses are mentioned, it is with chariots. This had to do with war. In the Greek scriptures, there is only one other place, James 3:3, where horse is mentioned other than, Revelation. Horses are used to represent war. The color white has always represented, clean, holy, light, bright, brilliant; “of the garments of angels, and of those exalted to the splendour of the heavenly state.” (Mt 17:2, Mk 9:3) This is the beginning of Jehovah's holy war, that breaks out in heaven. The one seated on the horse has a bow; weapon of war. He is given a crown; authority to represent Jehovah. He doesn't immediately conquer but, “went forth conquering and to complete his conquest." This is a summary of what happens when the first seal is opened or broken. What comes next? The opening of the second seal. We are not given all the details. Those come later.

In Hebrew, a bow (keh'-sheth) = comes from the root word, ”qshh” qashah (kaw-shaw'), it had the meaning of; to be hard, be severe, be fierce, be harsh. At this time is Jehovah going to be loving and kind to those who oppose him? To those who kill anyone who decides to worship him? No. This is the final battle. It is war against those who will not bend the knee to worship Jehovah and his anointed Son, Jesus.

Enough for today.

Agape,
Tsaphah

[Marque100]

<div class='quotemain'>Just some random/rough questions*

1. The first part of the book of Revelation writes about a number of different churches/congregations.* I always thought this was discussing the past, but Rev 3:10 church of Philadelphia – says that they will be "kept safe from the time of trouble which is coming upon the whole world, to test all the people on earth" – if this is the past then those people are already long dead. So this must be a future church.

2. Rev 2:13 – mentions Pergamum, where Satan lives/has his throne.* Is this literal,or was it ment to emphasise the level of persecution the Christians living there experienced?

3. Four Horse men of the Apocalypse.* Rev 6:2 mentions the white horse/rider held abow and wears a crown – is this really Jesus or an imposter?* Jesus is depicted as riding a white horse but only when he comes with his angels right at the end – Rev 19:11 he has a sword (not a bow) and wears many crowns (not just one).*

M.[/b]

"In Hebrew, a bow (keh&#39;-sheth) = comes from the root word, "qshh" qashah (kaw-shaw&#39;), it had the meaning of; to be hard, be severe, be fierce..."

That made me think of the "King of Fierce Countenance"*


Also Daniel 11:24

"When the richest provinces feel secure, he will invade them and will achieve what neither his fathers nor his forefathers did. He will distribute plunder, loot and wealth among his followers. He will plot the overthrow of fortresses—but only for a time."

That sounds like - "I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest." - Revelation 6:2 (New International Version)


The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse - White Horse (Counterfeit Christ)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUNzi9WITkgM.

[Utuna]

<span style="font-family:Verdana">----------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J&#39;ai pétri de la boue et j&#39;en ai fait de l&#39;or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S&#39;il m&#39;a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c&#39;est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton</span>

[Tsaphah]

The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse - White Horse (Counterfeit Christ)[/b]


This is the argument that is used to show that the rider is "The antichrist". This argument alone is false information as the only writer in the Bible to mention antichrist is the same writer of Revelation, John. This term, antichristos, in Greek, is literally, anti=against or opposite + christos (anointed) = Christ. This word only occurs 4 times, 3 times in 1 John 2:18, 22, and 4:3. It occurs once more in 2 John 1:7.

John even explains who the antichrist/antichrists is, 1 John 2:22, 23. How many? Answered in the same verse. MANY!! Once again in 2 John 1:7 he repeats that there are or will be many. Antichrist is NOT ONE INDIVIDUAL. I can understand why this lie has been spread. Most people never read the bible. Some who do READ the Bible are those that Peter mentioned; those who were twisting the writings of Paul. (2 Pet 3:16) And when they make movies or television "documentaries" on the History Channel, it has to be true, right? :icon_razz:

Remember this; It is WAR! It is Jehovah God’s war. The reason they call it “The Apocalypse” is because that word in Greek literally means “to uncover”, and it come from apo = away, off, apart + kalýptein = to cover, conceal. The other part of this is apoleia. Apoleia is a presumed derivative of apo + olethros which means to take apart or destroy. That is what war does. That is what Revelation is about, the unveiling and destruction of Satan&#39;s system, and the establishment of the Kingdom of God.

Let’s use a little reasoning on the rider on the white horse. When does the rider appear? (Rev 6:2) What brings about his appearance? (Rev 6:1) Who opens the seal? The Lamb. Who is the Lamb? This is a rhetorical question. I assume you know the answer. (Jn 1:29) Whose war is it? Another rhetorical question. Who starts it? Another rhetorical question. Jehovah has decided that His time has come. What would be the purpose of sending a “counterfeit christ”, when “we” know there are already many “counterfeit christs” = antichrists in this world? (1 Jn 2:18, 4:3), (2 Jn 1:7)

What follows after the war begins? (Rev 6:3-16) Once again, remember that these verses are summaries of the events to come. Is it reasonable to think that once Jehovah’s war starts, that his enemies will surrender and give up immediately? Is the resister, opposer, liar going to acquiesce and submit to Jehovah’s arrangement? Not hardly. So, it is Jehovah that starts the war and sends forth His Son (the chief angel/the word) to begin the conquests.

Utuna: I have never said that the rider on the white horse was anyone other than, Jesus/Michael the archangel. I may have jokingly referred to the rider being the Lone Ranger, or something else. It would have been a satirical remark. In other posts I have tried to make it clear why I believe, that the rider is Jesus Christ/Michael, to be true. As I have stated before, this is not “my opinion”. I try to use scriptural references to make the point. Whether anyone wishes to believe otherwise, is there prerogative. I don’t hold the power to “make someone believe”. I have had individuals say to me, “Make me a believer, show me!” I tell them, “I can’t do that!” It is only, “they” who with a willing heart, may except the word of God as the truth.

Learning has to be a consious effort on the part of a person. They have to want to learn. It is not just reading the Bible. It has to take a burning desire to “want to” learn about Jehovah God and his Son, Jesus Christ. Everyone seems to want to know what God’s purpose is for them. I hear that all the time. When a person learns what God’s purpose is, THEY will either accept it or reject it. (Ro 1:16-23, 28-32)

I must get back to my other obligations. I will try to post the suggestions to the answers of the other questions at a later time.

Agapé,
Tsaphah

[truthseeker]

Rev 6:2

Yes, Jesus/Michael is the rider on the white horse. Some say it's the Lone Ranger, “Hi Ho Silver, Away!” (Sorry for the caustic humor.) Revelation is not sequential. One thing about this letter by John that gives it credence as being inspired, is the fact that it is written very similar to other prophecies and scriptures. It begins scenes in the vision/dream with summaries, and then fills in the details of the vision/dream scenes. How can we determine that the rider is Christ Jesus/Michael? In the Bible, the majority of places where horses are mentioned, it is with chariots. This had to do with war. In the Greek scriptures, there is only one other place, James 3:3, where horse is mentioned other than, Revelation. Horses are used to represent war. The color white has always represented, clean, holy, light, bright, brilliant; “of the garments of angels, and of those exalted to the splendor of the heavenly state.” (Mt 17:2, Mk 9:3) This is the beginning of Jehovah's holy war, that breaks out in heaven. The one seated on the horse has a bow; weapon of war. He is given a crown; authority to represent Jehovah. He doesn't immediately conquer but, “went forth conquering and to complete his conquest." This is a summary of what happens when the first seal is opened or broken. What comes next? The opening of the second seal. We are not given all the details. Those come later.

In Hebrew, a bow (keh'-sheth) = comes from the root word, ”qshh” qashah (kaw-shaw'), it had the meaning of; to be hard, be severe, be fierce, be harsh. At this time is Jehovah going to be loving and kind to those who oppose him? To those who kill anyone who decides to worship him? No. This is the final battle. It is war against those who will not bend the knee to worship Jehovah and his anointed Son, Jesus.

Enough for today.

Agape,
Tsaphah

I was listening to the Psalms tonight: Then chapter 18 started: the chapter seams to be dealing with a Messianic prophecy and it states Jesus has a coper bow that he bends Vr 34 after learning or taking direction on how to war from Jehovah. Vr 43 indicates to me it is Messianic.
Just a thought to back up Tsaphah reasonings!
truthseeker

[TheMdC]

4. Trumpet blasts/ 7 Bowls of Gods Anger / 2 Witnesses.* These three appear to have a number of plagues/woes in common, are they the same thing? *Also,with all the different plagues/woes happening with each trumpet/bowl, I don’t see how there could be many people left alive by the time we get to the last ones (5,6,7).

There are most likely some events in common and some events that are specific to each. In other words, they overlap to varying extents but aren't necessarily the exact same events in every detail.

As for the population that might be left, the earth could lose 5 million people in death and still have ten times the population that was on earth when Jesus was alive. The human race as a species can afford to lose billions and still be ok biologically to continue just fine.

"On account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short," so it's all good.

[Steadfast]

Rev 6:2 Yes, Jesus/Michael is the rider on the white horse.

Dear Tsaphah,

You posted quite a bit of information trying to establish that the first white horse rider in Revelation is Jesus.

The problem is that this white horse rider comes out at the first seal. If you read Revelation carefully, you will find that the first six seals stand alone before any trumpets start to blow:

Rev 8:1 And when He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in Heaven for about half an hour.

Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels who stood before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.

Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

This white horse rider cannot be Jesus because he only returns once...after the great tribulation:

Mat 24:29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

Mat 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.

Mat 24:31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Paul also confirms this in 1 Thessalonians 4:

1Th 4:15 For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.

1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.

Paul also said:

1Co 15:52 in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.

If this isn't Jesus, then he is an impostor...someone who will claim to be Jesus Christ returned, but will be a Satanic ruse. Someone who will bring in a Satanic kingdom on earth before the True Kingdom comes.

Love,

Steadfast

[Molly]

Hi Marque100-

You asked some interesting questions. My response is as follows:

1. I think you answered your own question. It couldn't be in the distant past, but it could be the present or near future. But I very much appreciated Tsaphah's explanation of the ekklesias. There is a lot of confusion due to the usage of the word "church" instead.

2. The place Pergamum was most certainly real and it was a seat of corruption. Here is a description of the city at the time: http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/_PDFArchives/biblical-prophecy/BP4W0100.pdf

3. I agree with Steadfast's explanation of the horseman on the white horse, since we are not speaking of just an antichrist, but a false Messiah sent to deceive people into becoming a one world religion. Noone has said there weren't many antichrists all throughout history.

4. It certainly does sound like there will be a lot of deaths associated with the trumpets and bowls. A third of the men were killed from just 3 plagues. It doesn't seem as though the 2 witnesses are associated with death unless someone tries to do harm to them.

5. This is a plague from God, so it may not be evil spirits. I am torn on this. There are several possibilites. The locusts don't necessarily have to be demons or evil spirits, but perhaps powerful men and their evil armies (backed by demons or evil spirits) that are set in their evil course, creating some type of situation that that is so offensive/abusive/evil that mankind, even in its degraded state cannot handle it. This would show, once and for all, the nature of man's capacity to rule one another. Even after these plagues, the people "did not repent of their murders nor of their spiritistic practices nor of their fornication nor of their thefts." Or, it could be the poverty, pestilence and hunger that will be rampant at the time. Interestingly, only the chosen are preserved safe from the abuse. On the other hand, perhaps it is the anointed in their preaching work that is condemnation of all that men are doing, which aggitates whatever conscience they have and angers them that the character of their works are uncovered. I don't think that it is possible to know the details. With some things we just have to wait until it happens, then we can put the pieces together.

6. You can want to die in a lot of senses, like from humiliation or embarrassment, perhaps from doing something you didn't want to do (like taking the mark of the beast). Or, from hearing that you have been condemned and you can't change the decision. It's impossible to know exactly what it is referring to, but I don't get the sense that suicide is impossible.

7. There were discussions about this some time ago, whether this was Satan or the reigning Christ. I don't think we came to any conclusion. Again, this is a plague from God. The plagues were designed to get the men to "repent of the works of their hands, so that they should not worship the demons and the idols of gold and silver and copper and stone and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk." That is what gives me doubts that the plagues are from a demonic source.


8. I do think that the woman is the the chosen from wherever they are found (not necessarily the witnesses) and that they are protected for 42 months, but I think that they are protected the second 42 months, not the first. Remember, there are six seals openned before the sealing of the "slaves of our God in their foreheads." So, the sealing comes after the problems of the first six seals. They are protected and given authority/powers during their preaching. That would be the second half and after the image is set up, but in time to warn the people not to take the mark of the beast. They preach till near the end. At that time they will be killed and allowed to lie unburied for 3 1/2 days. Their resurrection is the beginning of the final act of destruction of Armageddon.

9. The trampling could be directed towards all those that come out of the nations, the great crowd. That doesn't mean that some attemps on the destruction of the anointed witnesses won't happen. It's just that any attempts against them wouldn't be effective until the end of the preaching mission. Then they will all be killed and the nations will rejoice, but only for a couple of days.

[barry]

Hi,

Regarding point 3 about the rider on the white horse, there is also a thread with some information:
http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2701

regards,
Barry