Pleiades Cluster

[Kenneth]

Does anyone know anything about the Watchtowers teaching on the Pleiades cluster and its brightest star named Alcyone? The Society once taught that Jehovah lived there.

Studies in the Scriptures. Volume 7.pg.327

[Jeshurun]

Hi Kenneth!

So good to hear from you!

The oldest article I was able to find on the Pleiades cluster was from a 1953 QFR. I checked all other references on the WT CD-rom and none of them suggest that it was once a teaching that Jehovah lived there. This article, however, just maybe suggests a little bit that the WT incurred "new light" at some point about this. This is probably not old enough to be what you are looking for, but here's the article:

<div align="left">*** w53 11/15 p. 703 Questions from Readers ***</div>
<div align="center">Questions from Readers</div>
<div align="left">• What is meant by ‘binding the sweet influences of the Pleiades’ or ‘loosing the bands of Orion’ or ‘bringing forth Mazzaroth in his seasons’ or ‘guiding Arcturus with his sons,’ as mentioned at Job 38:31, 32?—W. S., New York.</div>
<div align="left">Some attribute striking qualities to these constellations or star groups and on the basis of such they then offer private interpretations of Job 38:31, 32 that amaze their hearers. Their views are not always sound from the standpoint of astronomy, and when viewed Scripturally they are completely without foundation. Why? Because we do not know which stars or groups of stars are being referred to in these verses. The names Pleiades, Orion and Arcturus are not the names given in the Bible. Some translations make Mazzaroth refer to the signs of the Zodiac. English translators have merely adopted these pagan names given to constellations or star groups and have inserted them in their translations in the place of the original names that appear in the Hebrew Scriptures, namely, Kimah, K^esil, Mazzaroth and ‘Ayish. To just what stars or star groups these names refer we do not know today. Hence it is useless to indulge in unprofitable speculations. Incidentally, Pleiades can no longer be considered the center of the universe and it would be unwise for us to try to fix God’s throne as being at a particular spot in the universe. Were we to think of the Pleiades as his throne we might improperly view with special veneration that cluster of stars.—Deut. 4:19; 2 Chron. 2:6; 6:18.</div>
It is not necessary for us to know the particular star groups that the original words of Job 38:31, 32 refer to in order to grasp the point of instruction being given. Jehovah is here raising a number of questions to show the inferiority of the man Job when compared with his Creator. Can Job control the heavens? Can he govern the visible celestial bodies? Can he bind together in a cluster this group of stars so that they comprise a permanent constellation? Or can he loose the bands of that group of stars so that they fly apart and no longer appear as a fixed constellation? Or can he bring forth this group at its proper season, or guide that constellation in its prescribed heavenly course? No, of course he cannot do so, and he would have to admit it and at the same time acknowledge the supremacy of the great Jehovah God, recognizing that Jehovah rules all creatures in the universe and can dispose of all animate and inanimate creations according to His pleasure and no intelligent creation in heaven or earth has any right to question any of his actions. That is the point of Job 38:31, 32.

[Kenneth]

I have a quote taken from Reconciliation.pg.14.

"The Constellation of the seven stars forming the Pleiades appears to be the crowning centre around which the known system of the planets revolve even as our sun&#39;s planet obey the sun and travel in their respective orbits. It has been suggested, and with much weight, that one of the stars of that group is the dwellingplace of Jehovah and the place of the highest heavens; that is the place to which the inspired writer referred to when he said: "Hear thou from thy dwellingplace, even from heaven" (2 Chronicles6:21) ; and that it is the place to which Job referred when under inspiration he wrote: "Canst thou blind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion" – Job 38:31"

"But the greatest in size of the other stars or planets is small when compared with the Pleiades in importance, because the Pleiades is the place of the eternal throne"

It would be interesting to know if any were disfellowshipped for not accepting this nonsense.

[eyes&ears]

:rolleyes: :wacko: :nuts: :weird: :icon_twisted: :n:

Who wrote that book THE JUDGE??? hmmmmm :bieren: :ban_dance02:

MY MY MY


E & E

[Kenneth]

:rolleyes: :wacko: :nuts: :weird: :icon_twisted: :n:

Who wrote that book THE JUDGE??? hmmmmm :bieren: :ban_dance02:

MY MY MY[/b]


I’m pretty sure it was

[eyes&ears]

IT FIGURES :icon_rolleyes:

[Shibboleth]

So according to the book would that make Jehovah an alien?

[Kenneth]

We have to ask why Jehovah would need a planet to dwell on when he is a spiritual being. You&#39;d think common sense would prevail. I&#39;ve been a JW for twenty years and I still have no real idea of some of the teachings prior to the 1950s. I wonder why? :crazy:

[Jeshurun]

To tell you the truth I feel a bit sorry for those guys like the Judge. They were so desperate to "find" Jehovah and they were taken in by these crazy ideas. The book seems to be saying it was actually a star that Jehovah dwelled on.

It makes more sense to me that the universe is finite, since light bends, and that means Jehovah may enter it or exit as he pleases. Probably not so for the angels, but I&#39;m just guessing. What&#39;s outside the Universe? Any ideas?

[barry]

We had a CO several years ago who described how the the complete universe is moving and all star systems are turning around. The center of it all was where Jehovah resides.

[Shibboleth]

what is the center of nothing?

is there truely a &#39;center of the universe&#39;?

I believe in different dimensions. There is a heavenly or spiritual dimension and an earthly or physical dimension.

I like some of the illustrations in the Climax book where it shows God&#39;s throne and how there are spiraling galaxies and universes all around. I think in this spiritual or heavenly dimension there is no concept of time as we see it.

Angels, Jesus and Jehovah can cross over to our dimension. Humans cannot cross over to the heavenly dimension since we have physical bodies. Jehovah in His grand and infinite wisdom can make humans see visions of heaven (ie prophets of old) and He can grant humans the gift of seeing and going to heaven (ie 144,000).

[DoubtingThomas]

The WT has released numerous embarrasingly inaccurate articles and comments over the years discussing the fields of science and medicine. In fact, there is an entire web site somewhere that I have come across while surfing the &#39;net that post all these embarrasing WT articles. It is a great web site if you want a really good laugh! In recent years though the brothers have learned from these mistakes and gotten out of these areas of commenting on science and medicine and tried to stick more to the area they are so-called experts in - Theology. Unfortunately, the area of false prophetic interpretations is still one that they don&#39;t want to stop predicting and commenting on.

[eyes&ears]

What&#39;s outside the Universe? Any ideas? (Asks Jeshurun)

UMMMMMM I hear there have been sightings of Elvis and Marilyn

OK OK, I&#39;m sorry Jesh, you know I have to have a smarty pants good laugh every now and then. :clap: :186: :200:

Sisterly Love :Love:

E & E

[Dorcas]

The WT has released numerous embarrasingly inaccurate articles and comments over the years discussing the fields of science and medicine. In fact, there is an entire web site somewhere that I have come across while surfing the &#39;net that post all these embarrasing WT articles. It is a great web site if you want a really good laugh! In recent years though the brothers have learned from these mistakes and gotten out of these areas of commenting on science and medicine and tried to stick more to the area they are so-called experts in - Theology. Unfortunately, the area of false prophetic interpretations is still one that they don&#39;t want to stop predicting and commenting on.[/b]
Dear DT,
That&#39;s why the WTS don&#39;t want any of us to go to college or read literature other than WT pubs. That way, we won&#39;t catch their errors!!!
Love, Dorcas http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/MSN%20Vlinder.gif
PS I went back to school and got my Batchelors and Masters and everyone thought I left the Truth!
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_1_63.gif

[Berean]

PS I went back to school and got my Batchelors and Masters and everyone thought I left the Truth!
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_1_63.gif[/b]
Haha, yes, it&#39;s true. I&#39;m only in my first year to get a Bachelor&#39;s degree (probably getting my Master&#39;s after, but we&#39;ll see how things go), but when I talk about it, some will ask if I couldn&#39;t find anything simpler. Though carefully phrased, their idea is that college is somehow something profane - sometimes pictures are painted of drug abuse running rampant among students, et cetera. Well, college is no different than the rest of the world, and I have to do something to be able to get an actual job. What strikes me as odd is that people will have misgivings about my choice of career, yet they never show me an actual job listing I could apply for instead... hmm... anyway, sorry about my little rant... and good job getting your Master&#39;s degree, Dorcas. ;)

Also, about what is outside the universe... I&#39;d guess just a lot of nothingness. The dimension heaven is in is likely outside our material realm altogether, and what is outside of our universe is still part of our material realm; it just lacks anything material. Anyway, that&#39;s just my take on it. :)

[Elihu]

interesting subject, but impossible for mortals to know i would say

so at a guess from an earthly humans perspective i would say the only thing that exists outside of the universe is time
the universe is expanding so outside of the uiniverse is the future and inside is the present and the past.
the future does not exist yet, but every moment takes us into the future which immediatley becomes the present and then the past.
only Jehovah knows the future, mortal man cannot even direct his own footstep.

told you i had no idea
Elihu

[DoubtingThomas]

Theoretically even time doesn&#39;t exist outside of the universe Elihu. Mathematically, you treat time as the fourth dimension when working with relativity. Long ago people saw everything in absolutes. Space was fixed in place. The sun and stars rotated around the earth. Light traveled thru ether. However, years of study has debunked all these myths. No fixed frame or reference has been found for space or time. Not even a fixed universal time frame.



Most scientist now believe that the universe started, physically speaking, with the big bang. It is easy to theorize what went after the Big bang, but it isn&#39;t so easy to theorize what went on before it. Time is broken up into quanta of time called chronons, and each chronon is a Planck time in duration. Planck time is the smallest amount of time (the time it takes light to travel 1.6 x 10 –44m.). In fact you can only go back to one Planck time after the Big Bang, because at times smaller than that, standard physics theories, including Einstein&#39;s General theory of relativity, break down. So while it is true that the universe is expanding (including time-space and the future) physicists may not have physical absolute measures that mortal man/humans can use.



In other words, what point of time and what space was there before the Big Bang? How can it be measured?



BTW – The term "Big Bang" was the name given to this theory by those who did not agree with it, and tried to make it sound like those who supported the theory were believing in some chaotic massive explosian that started the universe, when this is not what the theory says at all. IMO the Big bang theory is in perfect harmony with the Bible&#39;s description of creation. The Big bang theory states that all time and matter (including Black Holes worm holes and antimatter) had a specific and exact moment or beginning. And the Universe (matter) and time-space is expanding in an organized (not a chaotic) manner. Sure sounds like a creator had to be involved to me. And where did all this matter come from? Energy according to the General theory of relativity e = mc2. And how does the bible describe Jehovah God? An abundant source of dynamic energy. It all seems to make perfect sense to me.



(Isaiah 40:25-26) ²⁵ "But to whom can YOU people liken me so that I should be made his equal?" says the Holy One. ²⁶ "Raise YOUR eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he calls even by name. Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one [of them] is missing.



Einsteins theory also suggest that gravity actually curves space. It has already been proven that gravity curves light. In other words, gravity is one of the influences that actually define what we think of as space. Gravity curves both space and time. Mathematically, you treat time as the fourth dimension when working with relativity.

What really happens when a planet orbits the sun is that it simply travels the shortest path thru curved spacetime. The sun curves spacetime around it. All this is happening while the universe and time continue to expand from a central starting point in time and space. Black holes are created when massive stars use up all their fuel and collapse inwardly to form super dense objects so far that not even light can escape their intense gravitational pulls. How&#39;s that happen? The gravitational pull of a black hole is so strong that even light can&#39;t escape from it. How can any intelligent being believe there is no creator and all this just happened?



So to answer your question Kenneth, I don&#39;t know too much about the Pleiades cluster and its brightest star named Alcyone, but I hope that the Watchtower still doesn&#39;t teach that Jehovah can be restricted to one physical location in the universe. I am sure that they no longer comment too much in the areas of science and medicine, because of all the ridiculous statements they have made in the past on these subjects.

[Dorcas]

I must admit, guys, most of your conversation is over my head, but I do have a plan to smarten up...I have a list of questions for Jehovah in the new system. I love to look at the Hubble pictures, but Einstein leaves me cold. I have a math phobia. Take care, you star-gazers. Maybe Jehovah will have an Enterprise for us to explore the outer reaches.
Lots of love, Dorcas :MSN Vlinder:

[Jeshurun]

I appreciated the physics lesson, DT. Fascinating, and thank you. :188:

[Candace]

DT, your excellent explanation reminded me of an incident that happened years ago. I used to work with a brother and sister, and another co-worker of ours used to pepper us with Bible questions all the time. Often, the brother and sister were gone by the time I got to work, or would leave shortly afterwards. Interestingly, one of the topics was the Big Bang.....and I agree with your explanation, and tried to explain things to the co-worker, only to find out that the brother and sister had just spent the morning telling this co-worker all the reasons why JW&#39;s don&#39;t believe in the Big Bang Theory. :lol: Thanks for your clear and concise explanation!

[Kenneth]

<span style="font-family:Verdana">The thing that worries me about all this is that the Watchtower has had some crazy ideas over the years that others in all good conscience have not subscribed to. Think about the identification of the superior authorities. Russell had it correct that it was the governmental rulers. Then Rutherford changed it to mean the heavenly authorities and now they&#39;ve changed it back to Russell&#39;s original thinking. The problem is that those who stuck with the correct interpretation were cast out of the organization.

Rutherford said: "Until quite recently God&#39;s people understood…that this scripture has reference to worldly ruling powers. Those who have withdrawn from the Society still hold this wrongful view. Now, however, the faithful remnant clearly see that this scripture has no reference to any part of Satan&#39;s organization but does apply exclusively to God&#39;s arrangement in his organization for his own people. Those who refuse to see this truth and who oppose the statement of The Watch Tower concerning it have seized upon such as an excuse and have dropped out and have gone into the dark." (http://e-watchman.com/commentaries/lighter...d-brighter.html (http://e-watchman.com/commentaries/lighter-brighter-and-brighter.html))


Note the part about the faithful remnant, in actual fact it was they who had stumbled into the dark with a wrongful idea. How many good men and women have fallen victim to the Watchtowers way of thinking, too many. An elder once note that there&#39;s only one interpretation and that&#39;s the societies. Wow what a thoughtless statement to make.</span></span> </span>

[Elihu]

thank you for your enlightening post DT.

you say time does not technically exist outside of the universe, and i would agree from a mortal point of view. the reason being that we as mortals are part of the universal creation,our very existance is controlled by time, we are slaves of time
however Jehovah describes himself as "the one telling from the beginning the finale of it all" he is not a slave of time but created time.

when he decided to create the universe he must have made a decision at a point in his time.
he calls himself "the alpha and the omega the beginning and the end"
beginning and end is time reference so even though your post is scientifically sound by mans reasoning, as we know Jehovah existed before he created the universe and it is he who has created time and he marks time by his activities
like the 6 days of creation
like the creation of his only begotten Son.
like the creation of the universe

just my thoughts
Elihu

[Berean]

only to find out that the brother and sister had just spent the morning telling this co-worker all the reasons why JW&#39;s don&#39;t believe in the Big Bang Theory. :lol:[/b]
Was that after the WTS came out with the book &#39;Is there a Creator who cares about you?&#39; (think that was in 1998, and I hope I got the title right)? If so, they haven&#39;t read the book, since the Big Bang theory is clearly accepted in there. Pretty much the only really good book that came out of the WTS in recent years...

[DoubtingThomas]

So true Elihu. That is what is so awesome (and beyond mans comprehension) about our Creator. That He existed before the beginning of time or even the universe. Science and mere mortals like ourselves can not even begin to understand the ways of Jehovah. It is beyond our capability.

But don&#39;t you know that this all (the universe) just happened? It evolved over time (no pun intended) right? (Toungue planted firmly in cheek). How any intelligent being can not believe in creation is beyond me. Satan has truly blinded the minds of unbelievers, while Jehovah God has opened the minds and read the hearts of the lowly and humble ones. Jesus knows his sheep, and we know his voice.

DT

[Shibboleth]

When you put a Creator in the Big Bang it makes sense. The evolutionists took the Creator out of the equation and say it just happened. How do we know Jehovah didn&#39;t use a big bang or huge explosive-like event to start creation?

The universe is a vast wonderful place that we have no real knowledge about. It&#39;s really to bad that some people can&#39;t see that it ahd to be created. People are so hell-bent on taking God out everything that they lose sight. Satan really has blinded the world.

[Candace]

<div class='quotemain'>only to find out that the brother and sister had just spent the morning telling this co-worker all the reasons why JW&#39;s don&#39;t believe in the Big Bang Theory. :lol:[/b]
Was that after the WTS came out with the book &#39;Is there a Creator who cares about you?&#39; (think that was in 1998, and I hope I got the title right)? If so, they haven&#39;t read the book, since the Big Bang theory is clearly accepted in there. Pretty much the only really good book that came out of the WTS in recent years...
[/b][/quote]

:lol: Yes, it did happen after that book came out. And I remember the brother showing the co-worker the book, but I don&#39;t remember if the other guy ever took it. :huh:

[Dorcas]

Does anyone know anything about the Watchtowers teaching on the Pleiades cluster and its brightest star named Alcyone? The Society once taught that Jehovah lived there.

Studies in the Scriptures. Volume 7.pg.327[/b]Hi, Kenneth,
The Hebrew Key Study Bible reads, "Can you bind the chains of the Plieades, Or loose the cords of Orion, Can you lead forth a constellation in it&#39;s season, and guide the Bear with her satellites?" In the context of the scriptures, nothing was said about Jehovah&#39;s place of residence. I guess that&#39;s why the WTS cautions us not to read the old literature.
WT says: ³ When a person really does find Jehovah, he realizes that “God is a Spirit,” invisible to human eyes. (John 4:24) Jesus referred to the true God as “my Father who is in heaven.” What does that mean? That the realm inhabited by our heavenly Father is, in a spiritual sense, a lofty one, even as the physical heavens of outer space are high above the earth. (Matthew 12:50; Isaiah 63:15) Though we cannot see God with our physical eyes, however, he makes it possible for us to know him and to learn much about his purposes. (Exodus 33:20; 34:6, 7) He answers questions asked by sincere people who seek the meaning of life. On matters that affect our lives, he provides a sound basis for us to determine his position, that is, how he views such matters and whether our desires are in harmony with his purposes. He wants us to make inquiry about such things and to put forth earnest effort to find the answers. Through the prophet Jeremiah, Jehovah reproved the people of ancient Israel because they failed to do this. They knew the name of God, but they did not ask, “Where is Jehovah?” (Jeremiah 2:6) Jehovah’s purpose was not their chief concern. They were not looking for his guidance. When faced with decisions, large and small, do you ask, “Where is Jehovah?”

Maybe this will help...Dorcas http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/MSN%20Vlinder.gif

[Cricket]

Maybe Jehovah will have an Enterprise for us to explore the outer reaches.
Lots of love, Dorcas :MSN Vlinder:[/b]


OOOOOOoooo! Can I come too?? I know how to cook! :lol:

(It&#39;s a good thing that I am not of the heavenly class as I would probably be caught wandering around out in the universe exploring nebulas, chasing comets and what-not!)

[eyes&ears]

WEll Dorcas and Cricket, that side of my brain does not work too good. Math!!!
PUHLEESE, I&#39;m still having trouble trying to figure out how to use the calculator. Let me see 1 + 1 is ahhhh :icon_rolleyes: . Math was my worse subject in school, just totally awful. CANNOT COOK TOO GOOD EITHER.

I guess Jehovah will find some use for me. (laughing)

Love

E & E

[juffowup]

How can any intelligent being believe there is no creator and all this just happened?[/b]

I can understand why intelligent people could believe there is no creator. After all, the difference between the two competing theories of "God created the universe by means of the Big Bang" and "Some unknown cause set off the Big Bang thereby creating the universe" is really small. That combined with the problem of evil, and mankind&#39;s inherited pride and arrogance, it is pretty easy to see why many would reject the idea of God.

Got to make sure we stay empathetic with people, even militant atheists. :-)

[juffowup]

<div class='quotemain'>Maybe Jehovah will have an Enterprise for us to explore the outer reaches.
Lots of love, Dorcas :MSN Vlinder:[/b]


OOOOOOoooo! Can I come too?? I know how to cook! :lol:

(It&#39;s a good thing that I am not of the heavenly class as I would probably be caught wandering around out in the universe exploring nebulas, chasing comets and what-not!)
[/b][/quote]

I&#39;ve always said that as soon as Jehovah&#39;s assignment for me on Earth is complete, when we are through with reconstruction and teaching and whatever else his will for us is, I&#39;m building a starship and I&#39;m taking off with my family and whoever else wants to go with me and I&#39;m going exploring.

[Dorcas]

<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'>Maybe Jehovah will have an Enterprise for us to explore the outer reaches.
Lots of love, Dorcas :MSN Vlinder:[/b]


OOOOOOoooo! Can I come too?? I know how to cook! :lol:

(It&#39;s a good thing that I am not of the heavenly class as I would probably be caught wandering around out in the universe exploring nebulas, chasing comets and what-not!)
[/b][/quote]

I&#39;ve always said that as soon as Jehovah&#39;s assignment for me on Earth is complete, when we are through with reconstruction and teaching and whatever else his will for us is, I&#39;m building a starship and I&#39;m taking off with my family and whoever else wants to go with me and I&#39;m going exploring.
[/b][/quote]
Wow! We have a crew ready. I&#39;ll order a map from Star Fleet and we"ll be set...Love to all you Trekkies, Dorcas http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/MSN%20Vlinder.gif

[NEW HEART]

So according to the book would that make Jehovah an alien?[/b]


fallen angels= demons..aliens