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Steadfast
07-30-2009, 01:52 AM
<div align="center">Sons Of Israel</div>

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand, having been sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel.

This is a very interesting and thought-provoking verse found in the book of Revelation.

Why are 144,000 sealed out of the sons of Israel? Why weren&#39;t all the sons of
Israel included?

Some interesting thoughts by Jesus:

Matthew 24:44 Therefore you also be ready, for in that hour you think not, the Son of Man comes.

Matthew 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his Lord has made ruler over His household, to give them food in due season?

Matthew 24:46 Blessed is that servant whom his Lord shall find him doing so when He comes.

Matthew 24:47 Truly I say to you that He shall make him ruler over all His goods.

Matthew 24:48 But if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My Lord delays His coming,

Matthew 24:49 and shall begin to strike his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken,

Matthew 24:50 the Lord of that servant shall come in a day when he does not look for Him, and in an hour which he does not know.

Matthew 24:51 And He shall cut him apart and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke offers similar information but adds some additional thoughts:

Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward whom his lord shall set over his houseservants, to give them their portion of food in season?

Luke 12:43 Blessed is that servant when his lord comes and finds him so doing.

Luk 12:44 Truly I say to you that he will set him over all his possessions.

Luke 12:45 But if that servant says in his heart, My lord delays his coming, and shall begin to beat the male servants and women servants, and to eat and drink and to be drunk,

Luke 12:46 the lord of that servant will come in a day when he does not expect, and at an hour when he does not know. And he will cut him apart, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his lord&#39;s will and did not prepare, nor did according to His will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Luke 12:48 But he not knowing, and doing things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For to whomever much is given, of him much shall be required. And to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Jesus seems to be saying that some of the servants (sons of Israel) receive stripes, or wounds for either knowing and failing to act, or not knowing but doing things worthy of stripes, and receiving less.

It is interesting what the Greek word means:

G4127 plege – play-gay&#39;

From G4141; a stroke; by implication a wound; figuratively a calamity: - plague, stripe, wound (-ed).

Also taken from: http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=4127 a blow, stripe, a wound
a public calamity, heavy affliction, plague
This is where things start to get interesting. Here are the other verses in the New Testament using this same word &#39;plege.&#39;

Luke 10:30 – And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

Acts 16:23 – And when they had laid many stripes upon them, they cast them into prison, charging the jailor to keep them safely.

Acts 16:33 – And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

2 Corinthians 6:5 – In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in watchings, in fastings.

2 Corinthians 11:23 – Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labors more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths often.

Revelation 9:20 – And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk.

Revelation 11:6 – These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 13:3 – And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Revelation 13:12 – And he exercises all the power of the first beast before him, and causes the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Revelation 13:14 – And deceives them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 15:1 – And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Revelation 15:6 – And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

Revelation 15:8 – And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no one was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Revelation 16:9 – And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which has power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Revelation 16:21 – And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

Revelation 18:4 – And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues.

Revelation 18:8 – Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judges her.

Revelation 21:9 – And there came to me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb&#39;s wife.

Revelation 22:18 – For I testify to every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add to these things, God shall add to him the plagues that are written in this book.

The sealing of the 144,000 takes place at the 6th seal at the beginning of the great tribulation. The remaining sons of Israel are divided into two groups by Jesus:

1. The ones who beat their fellow slaves, and ate with spiritual drunkards. For these offenses they are severed and cut apart. This is a death sentence.

2. The remaining sons of Israel, who seem to endure some kind of discipline in the form of stripes, wounds, public calamity, or plague during the great tribulation. If so, what did they do and why do they deserve it?

Jesus constantly warned against falling asleep. He also warned about listening to false prophets or being deceived by false Christs. What could those false prophets and false Christs teach? False doctrine or deception.

This is why it is important to remember that Jesus has not yet come and judged Christianity, but when he does, all will be exposed.

The true sons who stayed awake and were not seduced by false teachers and false doctrines may be those sealed to rule with Christ for 1000 years. The remaining sons of Israel may go through the great tribulation for cleansing, purification, and whitening.

So, repentance seems to be in order, because the stripes will be given, and the decisions the remaining sons of Israel make during this time will be critical to their everlasting life.

Love,

Steadfast

SlaveForJah
07-30-2009, 02:04 AM
Well done! Your long absences are always supplanted by an excellent post.

The Sons of Israel definitely appear to be more than just the 144,000.

Thanks.


Agape

SlaveForJah

billy2
07-30-2009, 02:32 AM
Hello Steadfast

nice to see your posts again - i have missed them

I will contemplate what you have written

I was wondering if you think this has anything to do with the verse that says - "there will be a great tribulation ...it will be cut short on account of the chosen ones" - that must mean that the chosen ones being refered to must still continue to live on the earth - we know the bible speaks of others having to die and go to rule with Jesus in heaven - so could there be two groups of chosen ones ?

sir_chan
07-30-2009, 04:04 AM
The sealing of the 144,000 takes place at the 6th seal at the beginning of the great tribulation. The remaining sons of Israel are divided into two groups by Jesus:[/b]


Hi Steadfast, yes it is good to hear from you again....

As for the time of the sealing, there is evidence that it is at least by the 5th trumpet or during, hard to say.
<blockquote>Re 9:1-4 ". . .And the fifth angel blew his trumpet. And I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to the earth, and the key of the pit of the abyss was given him. 2 And he opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke ascended out of the pit as the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun was darkened, also the air, by the smoke of the pit. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came forth upon the earth; and authority was given them, the same authority as the scorpions of the earth have. 4 And they were told to harm no vegetation of the earth nor any green thing nor any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads."

</blockquote>These men have already been sealed from what the scripture says.

Not trying to be nit-picky, just an observation. I enjoyed your post very much....

shikinah
07-30-2009, 08:29 AM
Thank you Steadfast, always love your posts, good to see you back.

Sisterly Love
Elizabeth

sir_chan
07-30-2009, 09:33 AM
These men have already been sealed from what the scripture says.[/b]

I just reread what i posted after the scripture and it made no sense.

What I was trying to say is that since the locusts are to only harm the men who do NOT have the seal, then apparently there are those that do have the seal of God at this time whom they would NOT harm.

Sorry for the confusion if there was any...

Londoner
07-30-2009, 01:36 PM
The true sons who stayed awake and were not seduced by false teachers and false doctrines may be those sealed to rule with Christ for 1000 years. The remaining sons of Israel may go through the great tribulation for cleansing, purification, and whitening.

So, repentance seems to be in order, because the stripes will be given, and the decisions the remaining sons of Israel make during this time will be critical to their everlasting life.[/b]


Hi Steadfast :)

Good to hear from you! Send me a PM please when you get the time.

I used to think that those "Tribes of Israel" was the whole Christian congregation, anointed and other sheep. The 144,000 was seal out of that congregation. But your excellent research has made me think again. Because if that was true, why does John then talk about a separate great crowd?

If what you say is correct, then those who are beaten with "few strokes", may be relieved of their heavenly hope, but can get everlasting life on earth if they remain faithful after that. The scripture does say that the full 144,000 were sealed.

How important it is to stay awake and stick close to our God!!!

Londoner

Londoner
07-30-2009, 01:46 PM
Hello Steadfast

nice to see your posts again - i have missed them

I will contemplate what you have written

I was wondering if you think this has anything to do with the verse that says - "there will be a great tribulation ...it will be cut short on account of the chosen ones" - that must mean that the chosen ones being refered to must still continue to live on the earth - we know the bible speaks of others having to die and go to rule with Jesus in heaven - so could there be two groups of chosen ones ?[/b]

Hi billy2 :)

The chosen ones are the remnant of the sons of the kingdom before they are martyred. The days that are cut short, appear to be the Third World War nuclear exchange. If those days were not "cut short", then no flesh would be saved as Jesus stated.

More details in Robert&#39;s essays.

Londoner

Steadfast
07-30-2009, 04:03 PM
<div class='quotemain'>The sealing of the 144,000 takes place at the 6th seal at the beginning of the great tribulation. The remaining sons of Israel are divided into two groups by Jesus:[/b]


Hi Steadfast, yes it is good to hear from you again....

As for the time of the sealing, there is evidence that it is at least by the 5th trumpet or during, hard to say.
<blockquote>Re 9:1-4 ". . .And the fifth angel blew his trumpet. And I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to the earth, and the key of the pit of the abyss was given him. 2 And he opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke ascended out of the pit as the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun was darkened, also the air, by the smoke of the pit. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came forth upon the earth; and authority was given them, the same authority as the scorpions of the earth have. 4 And they were told to harm no vegetation of the earth nor any green thing nor any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads." [/b][/quote]

Good morning chan,

It is a common view held by many that the seals and the trumpets run together at the same time. I held that view my self at one point, but upon looking closer at some interesting verses, I changed my view point on it. Let&#39;s start in chapter 8:

</blockquote>Rev 8:1 And when He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in Heaven for about half an hour.

Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels who stood before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.

Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mixed with blood, and they were cast on the earth. And the third part of trees was burned up, and all green grass was burned up.

So, my understanding from these verses is that the 7th seal opens before any trumpets start to sound. Do you see that?

That means that something interesting is happening by the time the 5th trumpet sounds:

Rev 9:4 And they were commanded not to hurt the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads.

During the preceding trumpets, what takes place? Alot! Including the preaching of the two witnesses. What is the purpose of the two witnesses? To bring mankind to repentance.

IMO, those sealed by the time the 5th trumpet is blown are those who responded to the two witness preaching, perhaps even the remaining sons of Israel who got themselves mired in many unscriptural things.

But we cannot leave out the great crowd either. The angel says they come out of the great tribulation and have also washed their robes white in the blood of the Lamb:

Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of all nations and kindreds and peoples and tongues, stood before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palms in their hands.

Rev 7:14 And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of the great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.

These cannot be the sons of Israel mentioned earlier in chapter 7 because they already washed their robes white in the blood of the Lamb, or they would not be called &#39;sons of Israel&#39;. They just were not chosen to rule with Christ for the 1000 years.

There are only two marks in the book of Revelation: The mark of the beast and the mark of salvation. So, by the time the 5th trumpet blows, the majority of those who responded to the two-witness preaching also receive a mark of salvation in their foreheads.

Love,

Steadfast

Steadfast
07-30-2009, 04:13 PM
<div class='quotemain'>The true sons who stayed awake and were not seduced by false teachers and false doctrines may be those sealed to rule with Christ for 1000 years. The remaining sons of Israel may go through the great tribulation for cleansing, purification, and whitening.

So, repentance seems to be in order, because the stripes will be given, and the decisions the remaining sons of Israel make during this time will be critical to their everlasting life.[/b]


I used to think that those "Tribes of Israel" was the whole Christian congregation, anointed and other sheep. The 144,000 was seal out of that congregation. But your excellent research has made me think again. Because if that was true, why does John then talk about a separate great crowd?

If what you say is correct, then those who are beaten with "few strokes", may be relieved of their heavenly hope, but can get everlasting life on earth if they remain faithful after that. The scripture does say that the full 144,000 were sealed. [/b][/quote]

Dear Londoner,

I hope I answered your question about the great crowd in my response to Chan above.

I would agree with your observation of thosen beaten with strokes losing their hope of ruling with Christ for the 1000 years, but if they repent, they will receive everlasting life in the Kingdom as well.

Love,

Steadfast

Steadfast
07-30-2009, 04:21 PM
Hello Steadfast

nice to see your posts again - i have missed them

I will contemplate what you have written

I was wondering if you think this has anything to do with the verse that says - "there will be a great tribulation ...it will be cut short on account of the chosen ones" - that must mean that the chosen ones being refered to must still continue to live on the earth - we know the bible speaks of others having to die and go to rule with Jesus in heaven - so could there be two groups of chosen ones ?[/b]

Dear Billy,

Thanks for the kind words.

Your observations cover alot of territory, scripturally. Let me say this so I don&#39;t derail the thread topic:

I don&#39;t see any human going to heaven to rule with Christ. The Kingdom will rule on earth and Christ will be here.

We can take this discussion up on another thread if you would like to start it, as this topic is important. IMO there is much misconception about the Kingdom and where it will be.

I would not only say there is misconception but actual deception tied into this.

Love,

Steadfast

Molly
07-30-2009, 04:35 PM
Hi Steadfast-

Nice to see you posting again. You have been missed.

As usual, when you stop by you never come empty handed. You always bring us a spiritual feast to enjoy.

Love

Molly

James
07-30-2009, 04:50 PM
Hello Steadfast,

Welcome back, <strike>prodigal</strike> sister!


agape,
James