Apostates, Who?

[Kenneth]

What is the true definition of an 'Apostate'? Who or what do we perceive to be the real apostates? Which sites are clearly apostate and should we look at them or read their material?

[barry]

Hi Kenneth,

I have been thinking about this for some time, since we had some problems with the parents-in-law about e-watchman. According to them, everything which is outside of the society is apostate.
I think it is very difficult to draw a clear line between what is apostate and what's not. I think it is important to agree on what are basic biblical principles relating to the truth about Jehovah and Jesus, 144000, morality...
Once you have a basic set of truths which are very clear from biblical viewpoint, you could define that persons teaching other things, which are clearly against the bible could be apostate.

I have visited some clear apostate sites and I think it is wise to be cautious. Some people can be easily influenced by what true apostates say and than it can be very dangerous to go to such sites, especially because it can undermine the basic truths. The ultimate goal is to undermine your faith and turn you away from Jehovah.

regards,
Barry

[James]

Hi All,

Here is a site I actually 'stumbled upon' before I came here. Truly apostate and just plain wacko's. :203: I won't name the site .

Here is a quote from their web page.
<div align="left">"The _____ ________ announce that the "Appointed Time of the End" begins on 2007Nisan14 (Sundown Monday April 2, 2007). This being one prophetic time (360 Biblical Lunar Calendar days) before the last day of this system, 2008Nisan14.</div>
<div align="left">You are most welcome to the website of the 4th and last true Christian Church, The ____ _________. This site contains all our scriptural understandings (other than new ones that we have not yet written up!) These understandings fall into 3 categories..."</div>

<div align="left"> James</div>
<div align="left">ps, if you use the firefox browser, there is an add-on applet called &#39;StumbleUpon&#39; that lets you pick your favorite topics and finds the sites for you (kind of like a google search, but different).
</div>
<div align="left">
</div>

[stayawake]

Quote "Here is a site I actually &#39;stumbled upon&#39; before I came here. Truly apostate and just plain wacko&#39;s. I won&#39;t name the site hear and if you can&#39;t guess it, PM me.


Now my Dear James IMHO
Why would any of us really want to ?""We are still recovering.
Love stayawake

[Elihu]

the oxford english dictionary defines apostate "a person who abandons their religious beliefs"

however it is a bit more serious than that in the eyes of God

Paul writes to the galatians
Gal 1v;6 " i marvel that you are being so quickly removed from the one who called you with Christs undeserved kindness over to another sort of good news
7] but it is not another, only there are certain ones who are causing you trouble and wanting to pervert the good news about the Christ
8) However even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond what we declared to you as good news let him be accursed"

i would say an apostate has a specific profile

a) they knew the truth
b)they reject the truth
C) they teach false doctrines to try to mislead people

just my thoughts
Elihu

[Reader]

Okay, let&#39;s give it go.

Apostates would be anyone who was previously familiar with God, and then has left.

So,

Islam is an apostacy from Abraham.
Judiasm is an apostacy as well.
Paul was called an apostate from Moses.
Christendom is an apostacy from Christ, according to the WT.
The WT has apostacized from Jehovah in the opinion of many here.
We have all apostacized from bible in some degree due to lack of understanding and lack of faith.
Adam&#39;s defiance was an apostacy from Jehovah.

So we are all apostates.

Fortunately Jehovah already knows that, so we are on a level playing field.

Let&#39;s get back to the time of Christ. He said, "He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters."

So those whose sole intent is to destroy ones faith in anything without giving it a firm foundation to be rerbuilt upon would be an apostate. To rail against the WT for misdeeds, real and imagined, destroys peoples faith. This is apostacy. To expose the WT (in Jehovah&#39;s timetable) and to show Jehovah&#39;s displeasure with the shortcomings, as well as to show the eventual solution, is not apostacy.

Fortunately for us Jehovah looks differently at systemic apostacy and individual apostacy.

Regards,

Reader

[eyes&ears]

When I think of an apostate Satan and Judas immediately come to mind, as well as the Israelites. I&#39;m not sure of what to call the evil slave except evil.

So I think apostates are those who once walked with Jehovah but for whatever reasons decided to leave Jehovah turn their backs on him. I am talking about a deliberate rejection of Jehovah&#39;s purposes, denial of Jesus Christ, 144,000 those kinds of things. That to me is very frightening.

Apostate sites are disgusting and dangerous. I visited one not really knowing what it was until I read them making fun of Jehovah calling him Jehoba and Jehober and things of that nature. It made me SICK VERY SICK. Those people are in real danger because they actually know what they are doing IMO, and they choose to continue doing it. I do not need to go there.

I belong to one other site but don&#39;t post there much anymore. I most likely will have my name removed due to the topics under discussion, and some other things that personally bother me. I do not believe growth means Jehovah&#39;s approval. The broad and spacious road of popularity means DIDDLY SQUAT to me. There are some very plesant people who are members of the site, I learned from them, am very fond of them and most likely will miss them; but that is neither here nor there in making my decision to move on.

OKEY DOKEY HOLD ON TIGHT EVERYONE.

Sisterly Love
E & E

[Viking]

surely Russell was also an apostate to his former church.

So you can recognize that apostacy could be soemthing in the mind of christians.
And arent we who read here on htat forum apostates too in the mind of the WT?

I think that the great opposer has made good tactics by gaining leaders of churches to be apostates to their own religion.

I just read a book about the jesuits and therin you can read that their target is to be involvet into each and anything to bend it to success for the RC Church.

There is nothing that surprises me much more, there are so many claiming the truth but when you look behind the curtain, it all depends on lies.

It is Jehovah who will clean his worhsip, maybe very soon. Then his work is the work of a refiner and perhaps we will be surprised who all our brothers are.
The great crowd in REv 7 comes out of the great tribulation.

Do we have already the right to say, that we are part of it?

We will see.

There is so much going wrong also inside the Watchtower and its church - I remember my early years when old fellow mates argumented that church is a word from satan and worshipper of Jehovah are no church. At this time they rejected any desire to be accepted chruches, reasoning that by saying that an accepted church by the state does pay to the state thsoe things that belong to god.
And now the WT is claiming to be church nearly everywhere to be establsihed liek all others, to get a tax free status.

that is all not necessary. Gods true church has His Blessings and does not need any acceptance by Cesar. Cesar wants the theings that beloing to god.

there are so many apostates, may be I am one too when I do question those certain things. And yet I do love my god and His purpose and I know that the final days of the final days are ante portas.

may Jehovah bless our efforts in staying on His side. The nazis spoke in the late third Reich: enjyo the war, peace will be horrible.

In accordance to that we might enjoy the present time, the tribulation will be more horrible.

[Cephalon]

those whose sole intent is to destroy ones faith in anything without giving it a firm foundation to be rebuilt upon would be an apostate.[/b]

Bingo! and there are plenty of them out there.

[Elihu]

what concerns me about the word apostate is the way in which it can be misused.

for example if an organisation does not want it members to hear something that is against that organisations teachings (whether it is true or not) it simply labels the one speaking as an apostate and the members ears close.
it can be used as a control tool, and it works.

labelling someone has been an age old tactic of the ruling classes for centuries
"shes a witch burn her at the stake"

the pharisees tried labeling Christ
"it is by the prince of demons that he drives out demons"

the answer jesus gave was irrefutable " if a kingdom is divided how can it stand?"
if satan drives out satan how can he stand"

labels are dangerous


elihu

[Dorcas]

what concerns me about the word apostate is the way in which it can be misused.

for example if an organisation does not want it members to hear something that is against that organisations teachings (whether it is true or not) it simply labels the one speaking as an apostate and the members ears close.
it can be used as a control tool, and it works.

labelling someone has been an age old tactic of the ruling classes for centuries
"shes a witch burn her at the stake"

the pharisees tried labeling Christ
"it is by the prince of demons that he drives out demons"

the answer jesus gave was irrefutable " if a kingdom is divided how can it stand?"
if satan drives out satan how can he stand"

labels are dangerous


elihu[/b]I agree about labeling people as apostates, goats, etc. We shouldn&#39;t do it.
It is a challenge to all who have been Jehovah’s witnesses for years, and a responsibility placed upon them, to see to it that all the 798,326 who are now associated with the organization grow to maturity and become strong, hardy Christians. All who are in the organization should feel just as Peter felt when he said: “Certainly if, after having escaped from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, the final conditions have become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it accurately to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. The saying of the true proverb has happened to them: ‘The dog has turned back to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.’”—2 Pet. 2:20-22.

I think this may be a good definition. They had the Truth and then left it. They go back to te Trinity, hell, etc.
Hope this helps. Love, Dorcas http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/MSN%20Vlinder.gif

[Sketch]

From what I&#39;ve seen here, most think that apostasy involves some sort of devient intent to intentionally misdirect people away from Jehovah... David Koresh and Jim Jones truly believed what they were doing was right, I&#39;m sure the pope (to some degree) does as well... even the WT big-wigs...

Currently, I believe that Faith and religion are two seperate things... and i&#39;m leaning towards the idea that ALL religion is a sham and racket... but that is different from faith... the WT gave me the foundation to build my faith on, but they did not give me my faith...

so that said, I guess the next question from here is... Are you an apostate if you truly believe what you "teach"?

[dgibson]

Most, if not all religions have a foundational teaching, that their is an invisable realm above us, with a powerful God watching all mankinds dealings. Its when the details emerge, that the fun begins. The absolute truth, is far from being totally, and accurately understood by anyone. But if you have laid your foundation of understanding through the study of the Bible, assisted by the WTBTS, e-watchman, and others on this board, you have a solid foundation of understanding not easily shaken. The real true apostasy is yet to come, as e-watchman has shown us. The conterfeit kingdom, with the possible participation of the WTBTS in the building,or managing of it, is going to be the ultimate grand conculsion of all apostascies. The movie that is soon to be shown on PBS, called "Knocking", is going to be like a giant drug overdose of self-confidence to many in the lead. Its like they are being lead into a trap of gratification, and superstar euphoria that just may give the WTBTS ORG. the hollywood status and recognition some have so wanted and wished for, for many many years. Then "Bam" they will be trapped into another one of satans macanations, to the point of not even knowing their own names, like many actors, and actresses of the past. Just wait for a reality series to be coming soon, or something to that effect. Even the major News media&#39;s are pointing fingers, at the family unit, and are hard at work finding ways to fix the families, so the Virgina Tech shootings doesn&#39;t happen again. It&#39;s just a matter of time before they discover, beg, and plead with the WTBTS to lead the way, in all of its glorification. Does anyone else see this?, or maybe I&#39;m one of those apostates. I surely hope not, I just want people to keep their eyes and ears open. My mother always told me, that if everyone was a JW, and practiced what was right in Jehovahs eyes, there would be peace on earth, and Jehovah would accept, and adopt us back as his people.

[Jeshurun]

I was reading about some brothers in Finland who got together and came to a consensus that the "seven times of Daniel" prophecy was misapplied to 607 BC. So they wrote a 3 page letter to their local office, and the response they got did not even address the question. So they wrote to Bethel, and I thought you might be interested in the response they got. Of course there&#39;s no surprise here, but it&#39;s eye-opening nonetheless:


<div align="left">Your brothers</div>
<div align="left"> </div>

[eyes&ears]

IMO this is not a response this is a WARNING, and it is disgusting again IMO!!! Very Christlike right?!!!
May Jehovah continue to help us HOLD ON TIGHT TO HIM AND STAY FOCUSED

Good grief this was very ugly.

"This Bible-based explanation of the Governing body is clearly laid out on the pages 82 through 97 in the book Pay Attention to Daniel&#39;s Prophecy! which you have at your disposal. Therefore we find no need to repeat what is contained "

"In practice, you would indicate your separation from Jehovah&#39;s people and their teachings if you started offering different explanations about the significance of [/size]prophecies contained in the Bible. This would soon lead to a situation where others would see you pursuing your own course, and they would not wish to carry on spiritual contacts with you anymore. Obviously they would see you as promoting a teaching "in opposition to the healtful teaching". (1 Timothy 1:10; 6:3, 4) Our sincere advice to you is the same as Paul&#39;s in Titus 2:1 in order for this not to take place: "You, however, keep on speaking what things are fitting for healthful teaching."[/size]

<div align="left">If you still strive to walk with Jehovah&#39;s people and be joyous with its spiritual wellbeing we wish that Jehovah gives you wisdom to do so."</div> :38786-6: :icon_rolleyes: :n: :fight.sml: :icon8:



E & E

[Jeshurun]

The thing about the "7 times" being applied to Jehovah&#39;s Kingdom is that it would be the only time, as far as I know, that a typical fulfillment applied to an earthly ruler and the the anti-typical applied to Jehovah&#39;s Kingdom. The answer Daniel gave to Nebuchadnezzar was "it is YOU, O king" and repeatedly said "YOU" in his interpretation. So if there was to be another fulfillment it would have to apply to the Eighth King to be harmonious with the Bible&#39;s established parameters.

[Candace]

In the end, it all boils down to who Jehovah says is apostate. His opinion is the only one that counts. So, from his perspective, who are the apostates? That&#39;s where it falls upon each of us to examine the scriptures carefully to see if we are being misled or not.

The letter to the brothers in Espoo makes it very clear that the WTS is not at all open to considering that they may be wrong, or that there&#39;s any room for improvement in their interpretations. They are taking a very clear stand. Would it matter how many people pointed out their error? Would it take a hundred? A thousand? No, even a million people writing in would not get them to change their mind. They are stubbornly going to go down with their sinking ship.

[Sketch]

Would it matter how many people pointed out their error? Would it take a hundred? A thousand? No, even a million people writing in would not get them to change their mind. They are stubbornly going to go down with their sinking ship.[/b]

Well, the WTS is not a democracy. We don&#39;t "vote" on interpretation. IF they are going to change their minds it will be for 1 of 3 reasons... all attributable to "new light".
1, they could actually see a problem with it and change their interpretation out of good will and love with a humble attitude.
2, they run out of time where most people of thinking ability would consider "reasonable".... hence the "generation" change...
-or 3, they get the smack down from upstairs...

We all know the simple title of "JW" doesn&#39;t get you saved - as much as the WTS wants you to think <i.e. you HAVE To be a JW to be gain Jehovah&#39;s forgiveness>... Faith/works is a much greater measure over who you identify with...

[dgibson]

Because they are taking the lead in these matters, the FDS feel all should follow their direction, because ultimately their reasoning is, that they will be held accountable for what they teach.

The problem I have, is that they have become a snare device to uphold their teachings, just like christedom/ the world of satan, whom they have accused for years as being a snare.

They have effectively split up as many families in belief differences, as they have bragged on stages at assemblies, that saving from satans world.

Its just another lesson in our modern age of huge religious org&#39;s gone bad in a technical overloaded society.

[Dorcas]

Hi, Everyone,
What a deep and painful subject. I don&#39;t think any of us want to be on the outside of the organization, but Christ wants us to worship in Truth, otherwise, we will never be set free. My husband, a former Catholic, had told me for years how much WTS resembles the Catholic church. I always felt insulted, but he had it right. But now, where do we go, what do we do? I never had a big family so the friends became my family. I love them dearly. So many of them have struggled to get the Truth (or to stay there.) Our son is an elder and our daughter converted to the Jewish faith. What a mess. If I tell my son how I feel, I&#39;ll probably be df&#39;&#39;ed. I haven&#39;t spoken with my daughter for more than a year. If it sounds like I&#39;m complaining It&#39;s just that nothing has prepared me for this day. Sorry to dump all this on you. There are probably many out there in my same shoes. We need to pray for each other so that we can stay strong. Love to everyone who feels like a lost sheep --Jesus knows where we are!
Dorcas http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/MSN%20Vlinder.gif

[Candace]

Hi Dorcas, I&#39;ve been pondering the same questions you have. When you look back at the Israelites, what did they do? Faithful ones must have just kept on doing what they knew they were supposed to be doing. For them it was keeping the Sabbath, celebrating all the festivals and passovers, worshipping at the temple, and abiding by the Mosaic Law, etc.

There really is no other place to go. So we just have to bide our time until Jehovah sets matters straight. Any time Jehovah disciplined his people there was always a remnant that remained after the dust settled. Since Jesus started the Christian congregation, we know we have to associate with true Christians.

The hardest part, I find, is keeping quiet! It&#39;s so tempting to want to shout from the rooftops what we know, but is it our place to do that? I was seriously concerned about what to do with this new knowledge. I found a lot of answers in the mailbag section of this site. Essentially, it seems to me, that now is a time to keep quiet, and not put a stumbling block before our brothers and sisters. If they don&#39;t need a physician, then they are not going to benefit from coming to know what we know. This site is really for those who have had their faith shattered, and needed a way to rebuild it.

If I happen to come across someone who has had their faith shattered for one reason or another, I will discreetly share this site with them. My husband has a niece who was DF&#39;d for being an apostate. Both her and her husband were DF&#39;d. If I ever get a chance to talk to them, I would love to find out the real story behind their being DF&#39;d. It&#39;s possible that they had legitimate concerns and were DF&#39;d for speaking up. I think of them often and pray if it is Jehovah&#39;s will that I could have an opportunity to meet them, and talk to them privately.

I think some time in the future we will be able to speak up, when Jehovah says the time is right. In the meantime, we have to keep on studying the Bible and building ourselves up spiritually. I think Jehovah is preparing us for a special work ahead, and I really look forward to that day.

[eyes&ears]

:Love: Hi Dorcas,

You are not dumping. We are living in some very hard times and as has been said we certainly need each other for encouragment.

I am thankful for our little home here and everyone on board. Some days we are up and some days we are just bent down a tad. That&#39;s when we need the help of our brothers and sisters.

Keeping quiet is hard isn&#39;t it. I find myself blubbering off to my hubby at times and he looks at me like I am a total nut.

Yes, we all need to KEEP ON HOLDING ON TIGHT TO JEHOVAH AS TIGHT AS WE POSSIBLY CAN DORCAS, and never feel like you are dumping OKEY DOKEY..

Here is a big huggggggggggggggggggggggggg.

Psalms 90:1

O Jehovah, you yourself have proved to be a real dwelling for us
During generation after generation.

Lots of love to everyone

E & E


I&#39;m using this time as the rest of you on board. STRENGTHENING my faith and getting as close to Jehovah as I can.

[Jeshurun]

The movie that is soon to be shown on PBS, called "Knocking", is going to be like a giant drug overdose of self-confidence to many in the lead. Its like they are being lead into a trap of gratification, and superstar euphoria that just may give the WTBTS ORG. the hollywood status and recognition some have so wanted and wished for, for many many years. Then "Bam" they will be trapped into another one of satans macanations, to the point of not even knowing their own names, like many actors, and actresses of the past. Just wait for a reality series to be coming soon, or something to that effect. Even the major News media&#39;s are pointing fingers, at the family unit, and are hard at work finding ways to fix the families, so the Virgina Tech shootings doesn&#39;t happen again. It&#39;s just a matter of time before they discover, beg, and plead with the WTBTS to lead the way, in all of its glorification. Does anyone else see this?, or maybe I&#39;m one of those apostates. I surely hope not, I just want people to keep their eyes and ears open. My mother always told me, that if everyone was a JW, and practiced what was right in Jehovahs eyes, there would be peace on earth, and Jehovah would accept, and adopt us back as his people.[/b]

dgibson, you are not an apostate.

I&#39;ve done a lot of pondering as to how the Watchtower will suffer a humiliating collapse and ensuing attack by the KON, while Christendom goes unscathed and rejoices over it. So maybe you&#39;re onto something but it leads to many questions. Also, if the &#39;Son of Destruction" resides within the WT, does this mean destruction of Jehovah&#39;s organization or does he lead in the desolation of the world at large?

I&#39;ve seen a few of the &#39;Knocking&#39; videos, but I don&#39;t know about this PBS program. I&#39;ll try Googling it.

Agape
Lou

[Elihu]

just another thought about who is, or indeed who can be, an apostate.

hebrews 6:4 " for it is impossible as regards those who have once for all been enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift, and who have become partakers of the holy spirit [5] and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things [6] but who have fallen away, to revive them again to repentance because they impale the Son of God afresh and expose him to public shame"


considering some posts where some share concerns about loved ones ,either being captured by false teachings or mislead by WT misalignment of prophecy, it occured to me how can non annointed ones be apostates?
am i correct in thinking that the GC has not been gathered as of yet but remains a specific future event?
the call to get out of babylon will, as watchman says, call true worshipers of Jehovah back to him. but i believe that also those who are at present captives of babylon the great but have faith that Christ is the Son of God will also recognise and heed that call.

so i think the term apostate is a very specific term and as an earlier post stated only Jehovah really knows who they are.

just my thoughts
Elihu

[DoubtingThomas]

God&#39;s people have yet to be taken into captivity to Babylon The Great, Elihu. That is a false teaching of the WT and a future event yet.

Watchman writes in his essay "Babylon The Great: When Does It Fall":

We ought to also discern that the overlapping prophecies concerning the king of fierce countenance; the 11th horn of the beast in the 7th chapter of Daniel; the disgusting thing and the last manifestation of the king of the north, as well as the 8th king of Revelation, are all depicting different aspects of the same political entity—namely, the United Nations of the future. That being the case, when the 8th king desolates the anointed congregation of God, we may expect that the symbolic harlot of Babylon will be sitting astride her beastly mount. In that way, Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses will be conquered and taken captive by our nemesis—Babylon the Great.

This is a link to that essay http://e-watchman.com/essays/babylon-the-great-fall.html

DT

[DoubtingThomas]

I take back my previous post. After thinking about it, even though JW&#39;s as a group and body have not been taken captive yet by BTG (as watchman correctly states), I do believe that certain individuals are held captive to the false teachings and concepts of BTG. Perhaps this is what Elihu is referring to.

DT

[Elihu]

Hi DT
yes thats what i meant,
it took me sometime to come to terms with watchmans view that Gods people actually fall to BTG. but he has shown clearly from scripture that this is indeed a future event.

the point i was trying to look at was what about those people who are already captive to the harlot. they have been mislead by parents, clergy and teachers, and as of yet have not really been enlightened to the truth in the manner that the two witnesess will display when they carry out their protected preaching work.
i do believe that there are many people in false religion who believe that jesus was the Son of God who will recognise the witnessing of that time, and follow Gods people out of BTG.

with regard to apostasy as i said earlier i think it is a specific title that can only be applied to certain people possibly only the annointed who fall away from the truth.

hope this is more clear

elihu

[Kenneth]

Essentially, it seems to me, that now is a time to keep quiet, and not put a stumbling block before our brothers and sisters. If they don&#39;t need a physician, then they are not going to benefit from coming to know what we know. This site is really for those who have had their faith shattered, and needed a way to rebuild it.[/b]

I&#39;m not sure if this site is for those who have had their faith shattered even though it certainly helps. Before I came across e-watchman I was quite contented with the way things were being run even though I was aware of the Watchtower being an NGO. However, I believed the library card story and as I asked no questions as so many in the organization do I left it at that. How I came across e-watchman was down to the identity of the King of the North and the Watchtowers lack of explanations. If I hadn&#39;t stumbled on this site probably I would still be emerged in Watchtower dogma.

I don&#39;t see that as long as it&#39;s handled correctly why we can speak of the things we have learned. I don&#39;t mean come straight out with it that would prove reckless on our part. The way to approach the subject is to use the bible and the bible only. For example the weekly bible reading lends itself to this, Jeremiah 25:29 states "For, look! it is upon the city upon which my name is called that I am starting off in bringing calamity, and should YOU yourselves in any way go free of punishment?" We could ask others in the course of general chit-chat how does this apply, if the book of Jeremiah is referring to apostate Christendom as we are being taught how is it a "city upon which my name is called that I am starting off in bringing calamity" as Christendom don&#39;t carry Gods name Jehovah? There are lots of subtle ways of teaching others but the best way is to get them to think about the scriptures and use their own intelligence to draw a conclusion on the basis of the question asked.

"And I said: "I am not going to make mention of him, and I shall speak no more in his name." And in my heart it proved to be like a burning fire shut up in my bones; and I got tired of holding in, and I was unable [to endure it]" Yes most here have come to understand the words of Jeremiah and most of us have held back for years and its becoming a burning in our bones. I spoke out once and nearly had my spiritual throat cut for it, so I appreciate how cautious we need to be . What I&#39;m trying to say is if your bones are burning as those of Jeremiah stick to the bible and what it says they cannot refute it, its Gods world.

[Candace]

Hi Kenneth, I agree with your comments. What I do is strictly use the Bible, and read it out loud to my husband, then discuss the verses. What I don&#39;t tell him is anything about the NGO affair (as far as I know, he knows nothing about it), and I don&#39;t come right out and say 1914 is incorrect, but I read a scripture and ask, "Has this happened yet?" This tactic has proved fruitful.

We&#39;ve had some pretty good discussions concerning Revelation, and he&#39;s agreed on several points of things that haven&#39;t happened yet, but he&#39;s not realizing if he&#39;s agreeing with what I&#39;m saying he&#39;s disagreeing with the Revelation Climax book. For me to point that out to him and make an issue of it would be a stumbling block for him.

[Candace]

And I have tried to talk with him about the wheat and the weeds, but he is adamant that the weeds were already removed. So I just leave it at that.

[Juan]

<div align="left"> Your brothers</div><div align="left"> </div>[/b][/quote]

Another religion would say "it&#39;s a mystery". At least it&#39;s less verbose. :icon_rolleyes:

[dgibson]

hebrews 6:4 " for it is impossible as regards those who have once for all been enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift, and who have become partakers of the holy spirit [5] and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things [6] but who have fallen away, to revive them again to repentance because they impale the Son of God afresh and expose him to public shame"

This scripture, is interesting, and mis-applied bythe WTBTS in my view, because it sells the idea that those who have studied and attended regular meetings of Jehovahs Witnesses, to the point of baptism, have been enlightened directly by Jehovahs holy spirit, and therefore if they fall away, they can no longer be revived. It is used as part of the entrapment feature of this organization, and support for its shunning practices against anyone who has been within its congregations for any length of time.

It is a scripture to be applied to those invited to a heavenly hope only, but the society remains silent on that aspect. They continue using it as a strong message toward any or all whom exist within its organizational frame work, for their own public name and reputation protection in front of their peers.

[Elihu]

hebrews 6:4 " for it is impossible as regards those who have once for all been enlightened and who have tasted the heavenly free gift, and who have become partakers of the holy spirit [5] and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things [6] but who have fallen away, to revive them again to repentance because they impale the Son of God afresh and expose him to public shame"

This scripture, is interesting, and mis-applied bythe WTBTS in my view, because it sells the idea that those who have studied and attended regular meetings of Jehovahs Witnesses, to the point of baptism, have been enlightened directly by Jehovahs holy spirit, and therefore if they fall away, they can no longer be revived. It is used as part of the entrapment feature of this organization, and support for its shunning practices against anyone who has been within its congregations for any length of time.

It is a scripture to be applied to those invited to a heavenly hope only, but the society remains silent on that aspect. They continue using it as a strong message toward any or all whom exist within its organizational frame work, for their own public name and reputation protection in front of their peers.[/b]

i so agree with you, for years after studying with a JW the basic truths of the scriptures i have felt that the WT has loaded people down with demands for stats.
and misapplied scripture pertaining to the little flock by applying them directly to the other sheep such as "woe to me if i do not declare the good news"
and as you rightly say the scripture from hebrews which is obvious in its real application.

elihu

[littleone]

Apostasy:

(from Greek apostasia, meaning a defection or revolt, from apo, "away, apart", stasis, "standing")

We must be very careful in using the title of "Apostate" when it concerns Jehovah&#39;s people. If we are to conclude that every person who stands against
Jehovah&#39;s organization is an apostate, then we must also include all the prophets of the Hebrew scriptures because they had to stand or prophesy against the "stubborn and rebellious nation" of their times. That nation was Israel who was considered God&#39;s people. Most importantly though, we must include Jesus Christ our Lord and savior, because he had to stand against the Jewish system of things and declare God&#39;s wrath against it... much to the dislike of the Jewish leaders of God&#39;s people.

That being the case, by definition, apostasy (from Jehovah&#39;s standpoint) cannot include those who "stand against" Jehovah&#39;s organization alone, but rather those who stand against "JEHOVAH" himself, or against his son Jesus Christ. Also, these ones cannot be just mere opposers, as in the sense that the "Canaanites" opposed the nation of Israel, or in the sense that the Christians were persecuted by the heathen. They must have first been one of Jehovah&#39;s people that have turned against Jehovah himself or against his son Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 6: 4-6 tells us:

"For it is impossible as regards those who have once for all been enlightened, and who have tasted the heavenly free gift, and who have become partakers of holy spirit, and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, but who have fallen away, to revive them again to repentance, because they impale the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose him to public shame."

In this case, this scripture talks about those who were of the anointed, and after tasting the heavenly free gift of the spirit, later reject that spirit and fall away and act in opposition to that spirit. Thus, they "impale the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose him to public shame" by going against the direction of the Holy spirit and against the teaching of their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. This is why it is impossible to "revive" such ones to repentance... because they have already rejected the holy spirit, and Christ&#39;s headship over themselves, and have rebelled to take a stand against Jesus and his Father. Yes, they reject the holy covenant and then act in opposition to it, and try to "draw away" Christ&#39;s true disciples to follow their own teachings, and to submit to their own headship rather than submitting to Christ&#39;s headship.

But the scriptures also speak of another group, the "weeds":

Matthew 13: 24-30 tells us:

"Another illustration he set before them, saying: “The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man that sowed fine seed in his field. While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat, and left. When the blade sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds appeared also. So the slaves of the householder came up and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it come to have weeds?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ They said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ He said, ‘No; that by no chance, while collecting the weeds, YOU uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest; and in the harvest season I will tell the reapers, First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up, then go to gathering the wheat into my storehouse.’”

The man that sowed "fine seed" in this illustration is Jesus Christ himself. These are the sons of the kingdom, true seed. The enemy that sows the "weeds" is none other than the adversary Satan the Devil. He plants these weeds amongst the true seed, and both of them must grow up together until the "harvest". Apparently it is very difficult to tell the difference between the two at times. This is why the Master allows both to grow together until the "harvest", for fear that some of the true seed may be uprooted.

The apostle Paul also testifies to the fact that weeds were in existence during his time. We have all read ACTS chapter 15 where it speaks about the apostles and older men gathering together to consider the issue of circumcision. That is Luke&#39;s account of what happened. Paul also gives an account of the events that happened on that day. Galatians 2: 1-5 says:

"Then after fourteen years I again went up to Jerusalem with Bar´na·bas, taking also Titus along with me. But I went up as a result of a revelation. And I laid before them the good news which I am preaching among the nations, privately, however, before those who were outstanding men, for fear that somehow I was running or had run in vain. Nevertheless, not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, although he was a Greek. But because of the false brothers brought in quietly, who sneaked in to spy upon our freedom which we have in union with Christ Jesus, that they might completely enslave us— to these we did not yield by way of submission, no, not for an hour, in order that the truth of the good news might continue with YOU."

Paul went up to Jerusalem because of a divine "revelation". What was going on in Jerusalem that was so important that it needed to be revealed to Paul through divine "revelation"? Surely something of importance was going on to merit a divine revelation. What does Paul tell us? He speaks about the "False brothers". Where did they come from? He mentions that they were "brought in quietly". What were they there to do? He goes on: "who sneaked in to spy upon our freedom which we have in union with Christ Jesus, that they might completely enslave us". These ones were "brought in quietly" by none other than Satan the Devil. They were NEVER of the true seed as spoken of by Jesus Christ. They were imposters, brought in to look like they were of the true seed. What was their purpose? To "completely enslave us". It is interesting to note that these were the men that were contending for the circumcision of "the flesh". Yes, they were trying to bring the disciples back to the law of Moses, and by doing so they would be rejecting the "freedom" the disciples had in "union with Christ Jesus". Paul understood that the "circumcision" spoken about in the law of Moses was a prophetic sign for the "spiritual circumcision" of "the heart" that true Christians would experience.(Romans 2:29) Apparently, these "False brothers" did not appreciate that prophetic sign, and then tried to go back to the teachings of the law of Moses.

So these "weeds" or "false brothers" still acted in opposition to Jesus Christ&#39;s headship, by trying to impose their own views upon the disciples. If the disciples had "submitted" to these things, then what would have happened? Let&#39;s see:

Galatians 5: 2-11

"See! I, Paul, am telling YOU that if YOU become circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to YOU. Moreover, I bear witness again to every man getting circumcised that he is under obligation to perform the whole Law. 4 YOU are parted from Christ, whoever YOU are that try to be declared righteous by means of law; YOU have fallen away from his undeserved kindness. For our part we by spirit are eagerly waiting for the hoped-for righteousness as a result of faith. For as regards Christ Jesus neither circumcision is of any value nor is uncircumcision, but faith operating through love [is].

YOU were running well. Who hindered YOU from keeping on obeying the truth? This sort of persuasion is not from the One calling YOU. A little leaven ferments the whole lump. I am confident about YOU who are in union with [the] Lord that YOU will not come to think otherwise; but the one who is causing YOU trouble will bear [his] judgment, no matter who he may be. As for me, brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? Then, indeed, the stumbling block of the torture stake has been abolished. I wish the men who are trying to overturn YOU would even get themselves emasculated."

Here he tells us: "YOU are parted from Christ, whoever YOU are that try to be declared righteous by means of law; YOU have fallen away from his undeserved kindness." Wow! What a sobering thought! If the Christian congregation at that time would have imposed the "circumcision of the flesh" teaching upon its members, then they were going "back" to the law of Moses. Such law would have been REJECTING Jesus Christ! They would have been rejecting Jesus Christ&#39;s headship over themselves, and accepting something else. These "Weeds" or "false brothers" would have imposed their "own" will upon the congregation, thus promoting their "own" headship over the congregation. Paul also says: "Who hindered YOU from keeping on obeying the truth? This sort of persuasion is not from the One calling YOU." Wow again! These "false brothers" were not teaching the "truth", rather they were teaching a "lie". Clearly, the "persuasion" of this teaching did not originate from Jesus Christ, rather it was an "inspired expression" from someone else. In this case, it was designed to mislead the "chosen ones" if at all possible. Notice also, that it is recorded that Paul understood the thing witnessed, therefore he could write about it in Galatians. These "false brothers" were sitting amongst "faithful brothers", even amongst the "apostles".

Thankfully, Paul and Barnabas and Titus did NOT subject themselves to these men... "no not for an hour". This way Paul, Barnabas, Titus, and those who did not listen to these men&#39;s deceptive teachings were still under Christ&#39;s "undeserved kindness", and they still accepted Jesus Christ as their head, and not these wicked "false brothers". No, they were not deceived. Thankfully, we still have Paul&#39;s testimony of that event today as an example for us.

I guess my point is that although these men were not "true brothers", they were still considered "brothers" by the congregation. Were they apostate? Probably not, as they themselves have never experienced the "heavenly free gift" of the holy spirit. Therefore, they could not reject that holy spirit. But they did stand in opposition to Jesus Christ by promoting "something else" to the teachings of the holy spirit. They also did try to "completely enslave" the brothers by bringing the brothers under subjection to their own teachings, rather than teaching the brothers to be in subjection to Jesus Christ.

Contrary to popular opinion, these apostates and "weeds" do not LEAVE the congregation. Rather, they work their lawlessness within the congregation. Yes, they themselves have abandoned the "true faith", and in that sense they have "gone out from amongst us", but in our scriptural examples we see that they&#39;re still operating WITHIN the congregations, and in Paul&#39;s example we see
that in this case, they were working from a very "high" position within the congregation. Although the scriptures does give us examples of Apostates that are removed from the congregation, it does show us that in most cases that these men have no desire to leave the congregation... but rather impose their own will, and the will of their father "satan the devil" upon God&#39;s people.

So in short, Apostasy is when someone is one of Jehovah&#39;s people, and turns against Jehovah or his son Jesus Christ. One that stands "against" Jehovah&#39;s people or organization are NOT necessarily apostate... although they could be. The defining factor is not necessarily a stance against Jehovah&#39;s house, but a stance against Jehovah himself or against his son Jesus Christ.

[panda]

Hi Kenneth,

I have been thinking about this for some time, since we had some problems with the parents-in-law about e-watchman. According to them, everything which is outside of the society is apostate.
I think it is very difficult to draw a clear line between what is apostate and what&#39;s not. I think it is important to agree on what are basic biblical principles relating to the truth about Jehovah and Jesus, 144000, morality...
Once you have a basic set of truths which are very clear from biblical viewpoint, you could define that persons teaching other things, which are clearly against the bible could be apostate.

I have visited some clear apostate sites and I think it is wise to be cautious. Some people can be easily influenced by what true apostates say and than it can be very dangerous to go to such sites, especially because it can undermine the basic truths. The ultimate goal is to undermine your faith and turn you away from Jehovah.

regards,
Barry[/b]

There are some that really hate the witnesses because for silly little things, but others that have very good ground for being upset and voicing it. Some have read about the sexual abuse cases and other things like the not allowing of vaccinations or organ transplants the change with blood fractions and disagreeing with doctrines and being disfellowshipped for so called apostasy only to find out later the very thing they were complaining about is now accepted (example) the generation thing.

The failure of fulfillment of prophecy, 1914, 18, then although they did not say 75 was going to be the end, they certainly implied it, only then to blame it on overly zealous brothers. An apostate to the org is when someone disagrees on anything the society says, someone that thinks outside of the square. The scriptures says To make sure of all things (1 Thess 5:21) when something that doesn&#39;t seem right that the society does or says we have every right to question and find out if it is in harmony with Jehovah&#39;s word.

The Israelite nation became corrupt, imagine if Jeremiah or Isiah and other faithful men of God did what they said to do, if the society does or says something out of harmony with Gods word or is against my Christian conscience then I don&#39;t obey them, my allegiance is to Jehovah first. They have no right to tell anyone what to read, weather to go to college (they&#39;ve changed that) or what to read or listen to, they can give advice but that&#39;s it.
Look at how many elderly people that have no retirement money nothing because they listened to the society and didn&#39;t get a descent education only to have a minimum amount of money at the end of the day. Education is important and to be ignorant is not bliss. People should make their own minds up from viewing all things and make a decision based on a broad scope of knowledge, not just one mind set.