Is the org losing faith?

[TheMdC]

This week's study is still giving recommendations to parents and kids about future pioneering, Bethel service, avoiding secular education and good paying jobs, with the idea that they have a lifetime of joyful service ahead.

A lifetime?

When I was little they told me I'd never have to go to first grade because Armageddon was coming.
Then they told me I'd never go to high school because Armageddon was coming.
Then they told me college education and a good job would be unnecessary to plan for because Armageddon was coming.
They told me when I got married not to have kids because Armageddon was coming.

Now they have an article for parents and kids and in the paragraphs talking about their future there is no mention of the Great Tribulation or Armageddon but rather encouragement for pursuits that soon won't even exist.

Have they lost faith that the end is near? Do they really think kids of JWs are going to grow up and pioneer and be Bethelites and missionaries? We're 95 years past the date they think the Kingdom was established. Are they giving up hope?

[panda]

This week's study is still giving recommendations to parents and kids about future pioneering, Bethel service, avoiding secular education and good paying jobs, with the idea that they have a lifetime of joyful service ahead.

A lifetime?

When I was little they told me I'd never have to go to first grade because Armageddon was coming.
Then they told me I'd never go to high school because Armageddon was coming.
Then they told me college education and a good job would be unnecessary to plan for because Armageddon was coming.
They told me when I got married not to have kids because Armageddon was coming.

Now they have an article for parents and kids and in the paragraphs talking about their future there is no mention of the Great Tribulation or Armageddon but rather encouragement for pursuits that soon won't even exist.

Have they lost faith that the end is near? Do they really think kids of JWs are going to grow up and pioneer and be Bethelites and missionaries? We're 95 years past the date they think the Kingdom was established. Are they giving up hope?Hi think they are just being careful (sneaky) as many older ones like ourselves would have written in or complained about the teachings of years ago, many that are still in the org now often mention they can't stand the thought of getting old, and this was not meant to happen, they were not prepared for old age at all. So I guess the society does not want to push any memory buttons so to speak, or they may be covering their backsides.

I just think the society is desperate for recruits, I know that many have left bethel and they are forever asking for brothers to apply, reach out for ministerial postitions, sisters are mostly pioneers, but they need more brothers, and I think this is one of if not the most critical problem the WTS has lack of mature brothers to run the show under the GB.

[FGM]

This week's study is still giving recommendations to parents and kids about future pioneering, Bethel service, avoiding secular education and good paying jobs, with the idea that they have a lifetime of joyful service ahead.

A lifetime?

When I was little they told me I'd never have to go to first grade because Armageddon was coming.
Then they told me I'd never go to high school because Armageddon was coming.
Then they told me college education and a good job would be unnecessary to plan for because Armageddon was coming.
They told me when I got married not to have kids because Armageddon was coming.

Now they have an article for parents and kids and in the paragraphs talking about their future there is no mention of the Great Tribulation or Armageddon but rather encouragement for pursuits that soon won't even exist.

Have they lost faith that the end is near? Do they really think kids of JWs are going to grow up and pioneer and be Bethelites and missionaries? We're 95 years past the date they think the Kingdom was established. Are they giving up hope?

You echo my thoughts exactly. I remember the words of the Awake magazine (1968 I believe) entitled "Is it later than you think." Something like "As a young man you will not grow old in this system) Now I am 57.
I have two children ( now adults) who are confused and concerned about what to do. On the one hand they want to believe that the end is near but on the other hand they are concerned that they will have the same experience as me. Fortunately I paid in to pension and insurance schemes to cover for a possible situation where the end did not come ( as has happened). But I gave up what would have been a pretty good job to bring myself in line with the thinking back then. I tell them that when they said Armageddon is round the corner it has turned out to be a pretty long corner.
I want to encourage them to have faith in what we are told but on the other hand my experience makes me hesitate to fully support what the society says in such articles. I an not so concerned with my situation as I have resigned myself to the fact that I cannot change my past decisions but it is very frustrating to see my Kids in this situation. I don't wan them to end up in the same position as myself.

[truthseeker]

I'm a Popper but a regular pooper:D
Would I change some of my choices of the past absolutely! But I spent a fair amount of time introducing people to Jehovah and that time I will always hold precious.
We are a mist appearing and disappearing in the grand scream of things.
Lets not forget any time spent declaring his name he will remember, if we were misled regarding dates or intimidated into poor financial decisions : Well just strike it up as a lesson learned for the future.
:lol:
truthseeker

[FGM]

I'm a Popper but a regular pooper:D
Would I change some of my choices of the past absolutely! But I spent a fair amount of time introducing people to Jehovah and that time I will always hold precious.
We are a mist appearing and disappearing in the grand scream of things.
Lets not forget any time spent declaring his name he will remember, if we were misled regarding dates or intimidated into poor financial decisions : Well just strike it up as a lesson learned for the future.
:lol:
truthseeker

Thanks for your comment. It is true that we need to have a balanced view of these things. But I really appreciated your comment "in the grand scream of things". Sometimes I feel like screaming......

[Nightflyer]

I must say that this is one of the things that annoys me the most nowadays. I mean when they are talking against the "wordly" education. When I was young(er), the constant "end is near" -talk effected me personally very much; I really thought that it would not take more than a few years at most before the end would come. So I followed this advice (though I was one the best ones at the elementary school) and didnt get much education. The result: lots of unemployment during the following years, taking jobs that I hated, lowered self-esteem (and health) because of that etc.

So I regret those decisions that I made as a teenager now. And I guess there are thousands jws who feel the same today (though most of them wont say it aloud).

Of course the end will come - at some point and probably it might be quite near. But the point is we have no way of knowing how near and that is the problem. Teenagers cant see things in wider perspective, they dont know how long the org has been saying that the end is just around the corner and so they might make desicions now that they will regret later.

[Eyes & Ears]

Hi TMDC and everyone,

I am now 61 years young:). I was baptized when I was about to turn 25. I was told I was gonna die if I didn't get baptized. I had no idea what I was doing, just that I did not want to die and I would do whatever it took to not get killed by God. At that time it was ABOUT SAVING MY LIFE.


I didn't understand what I was doing, nor did I really understand the Ransom and what it really meant. All I knew is that Jesus died for me. I had no idea all that went with that until almost 30 years later.

I had no more of a relationship with Jehovah, nor did I understand what drawing close to Jehovah meant than the man in the moon. I didn't understand how to read the Bible or what I was supposed to look for, piece together or any of the things that I understand now. It was all about not dying saving my life, and preaching.

I had no idea how to really love my neighbors or have compassion. I just taught what they said to teach, and called you a GOAT (as they called non-believers at that time) and told you you were going to die if you belonged to a church and did not become one of JW.

Then things began to fall apart and I felt in my little gut that something was not right. That is when I started my in and out in and out of the org for the next 30 years until I stumbled across this site in 2004.

After finding this site, I was able with Jehovah's help to understand lots of things. Even though I am still messed up a little bit about some basic stuff I now understand most of the things I never understood before.

So with all my ramblings and stories I know you all are used to by now and thanks for loving me in spite of it all (laughing) TMDC it is hard for me to say what the org is doing at this time. I have not idea what they are up to.

I wonder if they do.

In fact when I got up this morning I had your thread on my mind. It made me come up with a question of IS JEHOVAH STILL USING THE WTBTS AS A TOOL TODAY? Then I got nervous and said should I put that on the board?

I mean my thoughts ranged from you know what scriptures say about the errors, Jehovah has allowed, etc. etc. ..............but. Then my imagination starts to go off the deep end.

So right now, I am questioning and praying to my Father to help me understand how much more time E & E should spend inside before she feels Jerusalem is surrounded. (so to speak).

I spend more time in scriptures and only skim through the magzs. I don't look at the pubs until I get to the KH.

Right now my mind is tired from over 35 years of stuff.

Some young ones are still buying it for now, but more and more young ones in my kh are getting into trouble and slowing down. One family has a teen who has runaway from home. Another young reg pioneer has come off the list and is hanging around non-believers. So much is going on right now. I am just watching what is going on inside.

Of course these things tend to escalate at times I understand that, but so much STUFF is happening right now I don't know what the leaderships is up to as I said.

OK I am rambling now.

E & E

[Nightflyer]

Some young ones are still buying it for now, but more and more young ones in my kh are getting into trouble and slowing down. One family has a teen who has runaway from home. Another young reg pioneer has come off the list and is hanging around non-believers. So much is going on right now. I am just watching what is going on inside.


Same thing happening here with young jws. Some of them as you say "buy it" more or less, but very many seem to be quite lost and confused about everything. And who can blame them...

[SWORDOFJAH]

Is the org losing faith?

Not at all. This week article is a reminder how the structure of family should be according to Jehovah arrangement. Scriptual counsel at a time where entire families are being attacked by the enemy of this structure satan himself. If you read paragraph 19 where is establish that the key of a happy family is to follow Jesus example. We should be thankful that our brothers in proper time come with this lovely study.

[FGM]

Is the org losing faith?

Not at all. This week article is a reminder how the structure of family should be according to Jehovah arrangement. Scriptural counsel at a time where entire families are being attacked by the enemy of this structure satan himself. If you read paragraph 19 where is establish that the key of a happy family is to follow Jesus example. We should be thankful that our brothers in proper time come with this lovely study.

Scriptural counsel is good if it is applied correctly. As has been said in the past some counsel was not necessarily beneficial. Before 1975 many were encouraged by "scriptural counsel" to even sell their homes to pioneer. (Or at least were praised for it.) Counsel as to what kind of education to pursue etc. which in the opinion of some was not exactly good scriptural counsel.

I am not saying that everything in the article is bad. There is some very good advice. But this kind of advice is not the property of the WTS. You can find such advice coming from other religious organisations as well as from professional
counsellors. Advice on child training etc that appears in the WT is culled from such sources.

Just because it is written in the WT does not necessarily mean it is infallible. Sure we need reminders and good scriptural counsel but I cannot agree that it is always right. There have been many changes of thought over the past years including doctrinal changes that have had a profound effect on many.

We have to guided by Jehovah and his Holy spirit and we should do what is beneficial for us in our own particular situation.

I appreciate the writers in Brooklyn are doing their best to help us but at the same time to believe that all the things written in the WT comes directly from Jehovah is something that I cannot subscribe to.

[Eyes & Ears]

Scriptural counsel is good if it is applied correctly. As has been said in the past some counsel was not necessarily beneficial. Before 1975 many were encouraged by "scriptural counsel" to even sell their homes to pioneer. (Or at least were praised for it.) Counsel as to what kind of education to pursue etc. which in the opinion of some was not exactly good scriptural counsel.

I am not saying that everything in the article is bad. There is some very good advice. But this kind of advice is not the property of the WTS. You can find such advice coming from other religious organisations as well as from professional
counsellors. Advice on child training etc that appears in the WT is culled from such sources.

Just because it is written in the WT does not necessarily mean it is infallible. Sure we need reminders and good scriptural counsel but I cannot agree that it is always right. There have been many changes of thought over the past years including doctrinal changes that have had a profound effect on many.

We have to guided by Jehovah and his Holy spirit and we should do what is beneficial for us in our own particular situation.

I appreciate the writers in Brooklyn are doing their best to help us but at the same time to believe that all the things written in the WT comes directly from Jehovah is something that I cannot subscribe to.
************************************************** ****
Hi FGM,

Your kind, respectful words here were great. It took me many years to understand what Jehovah was telling us in Psalms 146.

I also appreciate what I have learned from the writers, but I also had to learn the hard way that I must be careful and make sure of all things.

Thank you so much for your expressions. I am sure it will be helpful to many who are looking in and to some who may be a little confused. We must make sure and not ever follow anyone just because they say we should or what they write or tell us.

And as you say it does not mean we do not appreciate what has been done. To me it means we understand the seriousness of being guided by Jehovah and his holy spirit, and we have been given the ability to discern and use our skills of reasoning Jehovah has blessed us with.

Most everyone on this board understands what role the WTBTS has/had.

Thank you FGM for your balanced view. No matter what we must be balanced.

E & E

[arimatthewdavies]

oh how i identify with these coments! i looked forward to seeing paradise at as a child and still do,ever hear of the boy who cried wolf! i must remind everyone jesus never said armagedon is comeing soon,instead he taught people to plan for their future by being in jehovahs favor now! perhaps you have heard of not being too hevenly minded for your own earthly good,disowning your self means does not mean neglecting to educate yourself so that you can work productively! dont give up on jehovah,give up on 3rd party expectations of him.train yourself to know the differance between mens teaching and listen to the voice of jehovah it is more clearly heard within the fellowship of jehovahs wittnesses than any other place,thanks to every person here who commented now i know im not alone.

[SWORDOFJAH]

Before 1975 many were encouraged by "scriptural counsel" to even sell their homes to pioneer.

Can you post any article that support your claim????

[Jahsdisciple]

Im afraid that if i was at the meeting where this article was discussed I would be saying what many on this thread have said. They have no place telling us not to look after ourselves in this system.

Its easy for them to say "Jehovah will look after our physical needs" because they are in Bethel and dont have to work. Will they ever learn to listen to what happens to those outside of bethel go through..GET IN THE REAL WORLD !!

I pioneered for nearly 8 years and I dont regret any of it...BUT i wish i had of trained and got a decent job 1st and had this behind me. Young ones need to hear this. Once that time is past,you never get it back and it effects you for decades.

People should complain about this,it effects peoples lives,health and relative hapiness in what time we have left.

We plan for the future but must live in the present.Dreams dont feed us now.

[SWORDOFJAH]

FGM can you post the article that support your claim about: Before 1975 many were encouraged by "scriptural counsel" to even sell their homes to pioneer.

[TheMdC]

8/15/1975 Watchtower - Granted, it mentions selling a second house in order to pioneer, not a primary residence.

6/15/1971 Watchtower praises a brother for selling his business in order to pioneer.

And it is known by those who lived as Witnesses at that time that these sorts of experiences were capitalized upon at assemblies and conventions. Don't pretend it never happened. Thousands lived through the experience.

[SWORDOFJAH]

Did the article said or give any counsel to do so??? Obviously not my friend. See your quote: Before 1975 many were encouraged by "scriptural counsel" to even sell their homes to pioneer.

Let see the refrence



*** km 5/74 p. 3 How Are You Using Your Life? ***
Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world’s end.—1 John 2:17.

Now let see your quote

Before 1975 many were encouraged by "scriptural counsel" to even sell their homes to pioneer.

Very different my friend.The brothers never counsel such thing.

Jehovah's Witnesses are continuously encouraged to avoid materialism and simplify their lives so that they can devote their energies to the preaching commision which Christendom ignores (Matt 28:19,20). But never to sell their properties to pioneer beacuse of a specific date.

[SWORDOFJAH]

Let see the other quote



*** w75 8/15 pp. 495-496 pars. 12-13 Do Not Let Yourself Be Sidetracked in the Race for Life ***

Resources and abilities that we might possess should be used to advance Kingdom interests, rather than letting them serve as hindrances in the race for life. For instance, if you have an extra house, could you sell it and use the money to enter the pioneer service instead of working hard to maintain both houses?

If you have retired or will soon retire from secular work, does your heart move you to use the increased freedom for a fuller share in the Kingdom preaching? Even though your resources may be limited, how can they be used best in serving Jehovah?
13 The objective should be to make material things serve us as needed, and not for us to become enslaved to them. If we truly appreciate spiritual values and put our relationship with Jehovah above all else, he will help us to keep running the race with endurance and to gain the prize.

This article is in no way giving counsel to sell anything because of a specific date or else. Just counsel to put God's interests first and don't become slave of materials things.

[Eyes & Ears]

No one asked me, but I just can't stand it. I was totally gonna ignore it, but...........................I apologize if I am out of order, out of line, but I can't stand it OK. Well let's say I choose not to remain silent, I let myself lose it here.

I am rambling and ranting OK

This 1975 mess as I shall refer to it will always end up in a no where situation with lots of Jehovah's people.

If you were not personally touched or knew someone who was severely affected/touched stumbled or whatever words you find acceptable, you are not and will not understand why others may have the feelings they do.

As I have said when this subject came up before, I was there, I was just studying in 1972, and I was told I would die point blank period if I did not get baptized because the world was ending any minute OK. (MY WORDS)

I had friends who had to move because the elder who owned the house got caught up in the 1975 mess. Some were not paying their bills, some were running up bills on purpose because they were led to believe the WORLD WAS GONNA END in a couple of years.

I saw marriages crumble because of a date. So even though those who were not affected by these goings on this does not MEAN IT DID NOT HAPPEN.

STUFF WAS SAID ACROSS THE PLATFORM, STUFF WAS SAID IN STUDIES, STUFF WAS SAID IN TALKS. STUFF WAS SAID IN CAR GROUPS. THINGS HAPPENED AND IT WAS NOT ALL WRITTEN DOWN in the WT, AWAKES OR OTHER PUBS OK.

Were some of us stumbled, you betcha. Why, because we were young/old/middle aged, eager, let others take control of our spirituality, tired of the wicked world we were living in. Put complete trust in those taking the lead, whether they were from Bethel or our local congs, or travelling through.

I have I do not believe ever been very angry as I am right now. But I am angry. I am angry that I allowed myself to get upset by this.

It happened, don't tell me it did not happen. Don't show me another doggone article from the W or A. I was there POINT BLANK, I WAS HURT AND IT WAS MY OWN DUMB STUPID YOUNG MESSED UP FAULT.

I will NEVER AS LONG AS JEHOVAH ALLOWS ME TO BE IN MY RIGHT MIND EVER LET ANYONE PUT ME THROUGH ANYTHING LIKE THAT AGAIN. EVER EVER EVER.

SO DON'T MAKE LIGHT OF THE FACT THAT BECAUSE YOU PERSONALLY WERE NOT AFFECTED THAT THOSE IN THE ORGANIZATION DID NOT SAY, IMPLY, STUMBLE OR CAUSE A PROBLEM BY THEIR WHAT I WILL FOR LACK OF BETTER WORDING SAY WAS "OVER-EAGERNESS". I WON'T USE THE WORDS I REALLY WANT TO BECAUSE I WOULD BE BANNED FOR LIFE.

Was it Jehovah's fault, CERTAINLY NOT.

But he allowed things to take place.

What did I learn as well as many others. We do not serve Jehovah with a date in mind. We don't serve our Father for what we can get. We don't put complete trust in human beings and push Jehovah, his son and Holy Spirit aside. We make sure of what we are being told. We don't believe every single thing that is written in the publications nor do we accept every single thing that anyone in the org says PERIOD.

I am finished now. I have to go somewhere and cool down. I am ticked off. I am sorry, I sounded off, but I had to get this out.

Oh one more statement. We all on this board are pretty much familar with each others personalities. We pretty much know how we feel about certain topics. I am not a mind reader and I am not anybody special, but I get the sense sometimes that certain personalities like to PUSH BUTTONS. IF I AM WRONG, WELL JEHOVAH I ASK TO CORRECT MY THINKING.

All I have to say if that is what you are doing. STOP IT. STOP IT RIGHT NOW.

OK I'm done. Gonna go get a cool glass of water and get ready to try and talk to folks tomorrow.:angry::ranting2::mad:. All this after I talked about love and respect SHEESH.

GOOD NIGHT ALL.

A tad ticked E & E (sorry)

[TheMdC]

Thanks for sharing E&E. Anyone who says it didn't happen either wasn't there at meetings, assemblies, or conventions of that period, or was in the rarest of rare congregations/circuits/districts where it didn't come up, or is obfuscating what really happened to cover up for the organization's colossal 1975 mistake.

We can discuss it without getting angry because we know what went on and why, but when ones come in here and deny that it ever happened when we know it did because we lived through it it is a great test of our long-suffering.

Hang in there, brothers and sisters.

[SWORDOFJAH]

Eyes & Ears "I am rambling and ranting OK "

That is fine with me my friend. But the facts are that the brothers never counsel to sell anything cause the end will come in 1975 or something similar. We have to be careful to follow opposers that like to misrepresent Jehovah's servants.

With respect SWORDOFJAH.

[FGM]

Eyes & Ears "I am rambling and ranting OK "

That is fine with me my friend. But the facts are that the brothers never counsel to sell anything cause the end will come in 1975 or something similar. We have to be careful to follow opposers that like to misrepresent Jehovah's servants.

With respect SWORDOFJAH.

With respect SWORDOFJAH I think that the previous posts by Eyes and Ears and McD show that that was exactly what happened. Were you there at that time? Because I was and I saw exactly how many Brothers took what was coming from the WT as .....COUNSEL.

Of course the society did not come out and say sell your house" directly.
But isn't that how counsel is supposed to be given?
Use the scriptures and IMPLY what the Brothers should do. Saying that "selling one's house is a fine thing to do"..was taken as counsel. In the article under discussion on this thread there are many suggestions but actually it is saying "this is what you should be doing".
Such comments as was already said were rife at the time.

If you wish to believe that the society did not give counsel to sell anything or encourage such an attitude because the end would come in 1975, that is up to you. There are plenty of Brothers who know differently. However, what is important now is to recognise that there will be Watchtower articles that in some cases, maybe from an overzealous motive, that encourages certain action that may not always be appropriate or may be a burden for some to apply. If it is believed that the society is always going to be 100% correct and cannot be criticised in any way whatsoever then that is certainly a persons privilege.

But there is also the right to question what is printed in the pages of the WT.

May we all do our best to be guided by Jehovah in the way that
he wants us to be, through his spirit

My thoughts on the matter
FGM

[SWORDOFJAH]

From your comments my friend you realize that the brothers never claim or counsel anything to the brothers. Also that any prediction of the end reagrding 1975 never took place.

If any brother or sister took any decision regarding their properties it was their own choice.But no one can blame the brothers for it cause the counsel never was given.

By the way I was there in New York by the time. And we never took any article to the matter of fact to sell or get rid of any property cause it was a direct counsel or even an imply counsel.

Again opposers like to misrepresent our brothers. Their tactics have failed my friend. 1975 have passed and Jehovah's servants are united and preaching the good news worldwide.

It is always nice to talk and have the correct facts regarding our brotherhood.

With respect SWORDOFJAH.

[FutureMan]

From your comments my friend you realize that the brothers never claim or counsel anything to the brothers. Also that any prediction of the end reagrding 1975 never took place.

If any brother or sister took any decision regarding their properties it was their own choice.But no one can blame the brothers for it cause the counsel never was given.

By the way I was there in New York by the time. And we never took any article to the matter of fact to sell or get rid of any property cause it was a direct counsel or even an imply counsel.

Again opposers like to misrepresent our brothers. Their tactics have failed my friend. 1975 have passed and Jehovah's servants are united and preaching the good news worldwide.

It is always nice to talk and have the correct facts regarding our brotherhood.

With respect SWORDOFJAH.

You are joking, are you not, or are you so blind as to not see how the Society were alluding to the fact that the 6000 years ended in 1975 and therefore the end of the system of things? There is quite some information on this.

[Desert Blossom]

What is the Significance of 1975? (http://www.archive.org/details/WhatIsTheSignficanceOf1975)

"What is the Significance of 1975?" Audio lecture given in early 1975 by Frederick W. Franz, then Vice President of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (Jehovah's Witnesses) at Dodger Stadium in Los Angeles, California. Discusses how Bible chronology points to the year 1975. Franz later served as President of the Watch Tower Society from 1977-1992.

1972 Fred Franz Lecture Gilead Graduation (http://www.archive.org/details/1972FredFranzLectureGileadGraduation)

Lecture given by then Watchtower Vice President Fred Franz on October 1, 1972 at the graduation of the 53rd class of Gilead School. It was also the Annual Meeting of the Watch Tower Society (Jehovah's Witnesses), held in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Franz notes that Orthodox Judaism was then celebrating the 5,733rd year since mankind's creation, but that "spiritual Israelites" (JWs) believed according to their chronology that they were "almost smack up" against 6,000 years (not 5733 years) and the Millennium. At the time, the Witnesses were highlighting the year 1975 as going to be a significant year. Franz goes on to say that this was not at time to slow down thinking the End was a long way off instead as if the Orthodox Jewish chronology was more correct. This lecture was described in the Nov. 15, 1972 Watchtower, pp. 702-703.

[uglyandthin]

Hi All:

It is very simple, the Shepherds led the sheep into the wrong direction and when some of the sheep got hurt or killed the shepherds blamed the sheep. I can think of very few times that the WT leadership have made mistakes and then said they were sorry, please forgive us. I am not sure they would know how to do that. They are flesh and blood, just like you and me, so thier shortcoming is not making mistakes, it is never owning up to thier mistakes and repenting.

uglyandthin

[TheMdC]

...the brothers never claim or counsel anything to the brothers.

:eek:
:lol:

Are trolls allowed on this board?

[SWORDOFJAH]

You are joking, are you not, or are you so blind as to not see how the Society were alluding to the fact that the 6000 years ended in 1975 and therefore the end of the system of things? There is quite some information on this.

No my friend,Iam not joking. What I am doing is to correct the wrong information opposers posted about 1975. It is easy to claim something but hard to prove it.

No one has prove in any article that the brothers point out 1975 as the end of the system and the begining of the new world. So my advice is to avoid saying things that are not there.

Again show me any article that support what the first person claim on this thread. Let me help you save some time...you would not find any.

And finally I am not a troll lol. I am a brother that share the truth with you. I know that perharps few here has issues but the truth is the truth regarding this issue of 1975.

In a court when you present any case you must have solid evidence in order to prove your case. Otherwise you will be dismiss fast and easy.

In this case the evidence is clear...there is not one article that indicate what opposers claim against Jehovah's servants.

With respect and moreover with love for you brothers.

[TheMdC]

Here's something that should be familiar to an uncompromising supporter of the WT:
"at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established." ~Matthew 18:16

We have more than met the Biblical standard above for establishing that people were indeed encouraged and counseled to sell their belongings in the early 1970s in preparation for the end in 1975. Therefore, nobody needs to post any more articles than have already been posted, nor provide any further testimony.

You are free to set a burden of proof for yourself by requiring articles before you are convinced; you are not free to set such a burden of proof for others. We know what we heard at meetings, assemblies, and conventions and have testified to the facts. If you weren't there, you can't speak with any authority on the subject at all.

And please quit calling us opposers and brothers at the same time. Pick one and go with it.

[SWORDOFJAH]

Let me clear the bases for you. When I refer to opposers I am refering to those who misrepresents the facts. I will refer to the brothers who might believe them as confuse ones. Why confuse??? Because until now no opposer has presented with any evidnce regarding the issue of 1975 as they wanted presented. There is a clear separation between facts and opinions. The facts are that the brothers never present 1975 as the end of this system or never counsel to sell any property cause of the 1975.

Again if you or any brother or sister have any written article to support such claims,I would be happy to read it. Not the claim I think,I infer,I believe,I heard,Someone told me, ect... just facts as written articles.

[Utuna]

Let me clear the bases for you. When I refer to opposers I am refering to those who misrepresents the facts. I will refer to the brothers who might believe them as confuse ones. Why confuse??? Because until now no opposer has presented with any evidnce regarding the issue of 1975 as they wanted presented. There is a clear separation between facts and opinions. The facts are that the brothers never present 1975 as the end of this system or never counsel to sell any property cause of the 1975.

Again if you or any brother or sister have any written article to support such claims,I would be happy to read it. Not the claim I think,I infer,I believe,I heard,Someone told me, ect... just facts as written articles.
Dear SWORDOFJAH,

Let me clear the bases for you.

I'm preparing a reply to you and you won't have to quote anything from your CD-ROM Library as a reply. Your heart will speak, nothing else, be sure about that!

You like to quote books? I'll tell you about lives, tears and sorrows!

Yes, someone told me! Many people told me the same here in France (is it group hallucination of a handful of b/s over there in the USA?) and I believe them even if it's not "facts as written articles"! It's real life!

---------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Nightflyer]

SwordofJah

I havent read all the posts in this thread but... It is a fact that probably thousands of Jws were stumbled over the 1975-fiasco and Fred Franz (who originally invented the whole thing and spoke like crazy about it in conventions, just check youtube for these talks) never even apologized for his error. In fact, the GB stayed completely silent about the whole subject for about four years until they said anything about it. Meanwhile thousands of Jws were heart-broken and disappointed and many left the truth but the GB could not care less. They kept on going like nothing was wrong.

True, they probably never said like "1975 WILL be the end of this system, thats for sure" but even speaking about any years or dates is very unwise. Nobody knows the hour so why even mention any dates? Why?

Do you really think that there is nothing wrong with this? Is this the way humble servants of Jehovah and shephers of the flock should act?

[Molly]

Hi E&E-

I hope that you have managed to calm down. I can understand how you feel.

I was there in 1975 as well. I remember the talks and discussions that told us that the end was expected the Fall of 1975. The WTS has always been very careful about the phrasing it uses in its publications. They make suggestions, but the suggestions under the subtle pressures of the Society become more like expectations when expressed from the platform. And, yes, many individuals went into hyper-zealot mode. They were just trying to be faithful and do what they could.

Many quit good jobs and sold their homes to pioneer. Others lived off savings thinking that the end was near. Others bought expensive things they didn't need. What good would a lot of money in the bank be if the end came? The problem isn't that the Society didn't specifically stated that people should do this, it is that they encouraged this behavior rather than calling for balance and good judgment. They allowed this all to go on without any restraint. And then claimed it was all the individual's own fault because the Society never used the words that claimed the end was definitely coming in 1975. They didn't care at all how the individual's future was then thrown into chaos because they relied on what was said in the publications and from the platform.

Molly

[Molly]

SwordofJah

I havent read all the posts in this thread but... It is a fact that probably thousands of Jws were stumbled over the 1975-fiasco and Fred Franz (who originally invented the whole thing and spoke like crazy about it in conventions, just check youtube for these talks) never even apologized for his error. In fact, the GB stayed completely silent about the whole subject for about four years until they said anything about it. Meanwhile thousands of Jws were heart-broken and disappointed and many left the truth but the GB could not care less. They kept on going like nothing was wrong.

True, they probably never said like "1975 WILL be the end of this system, thats for sure" but even speaking about any years or dates is very unwise. Nobody knows the hour so why even mention any dates? Why?

Do you really think that there is nothing wrong with this? Is this the way humble servants of Jehovah and shephers of the flock should act?

Nightflyer-

It wasn't thousands that left. It was hundreds of thousands.

In 1975 the average number of publishers was 2,062,449.
in 1977 the average number of publishers was 2,117,194.
That is an increase of 54,745.

That sounds good until you realize that the number of those baptised from 1975-1977 was 616,188. Aside from the usual number that leave, there were 516,443 missing at the end of 1977.

[FGM]

It seems quite clear that the only person on this board so far who refuses to believe that the society mislead the Brothers back in the years up to 1975 is Sword of Jah.
Perhaps if you are interested in "evidence" Sword of Jah you should also know that circumstantial evidence is also quite important in a court case.
You have plenty to consider just on this board.

However, it would seem that despite all that has been said, you are taking an intractable position on this. Well as I said before, that is up to you, but you are ignoring the evidence of many that know different.

It is something that I guess we should try to put in the past and lick our wounds but on the other hand we should try to learn from our mistakes and hopefully the GB has done that to some extent. Still we are left with a bad taste in our mouth and that date "1975" has still a lot of connection to our lives today. It should not be glossed over as some unimportant event.

The fact that Jehovah allowed it must mean something.
Let us continue to encourage one another to continue to put faith in Jehovah until we truly can put such things to rest.

Respectfully
FGM

[Eyes & Ears]

Hi E&E-

I hope that you have managed to calm down. I can understand how you feel.

I was there in 1975 as well. I remember the talks and discussions that told us that the end was expected the Fall of 1975. The WTS has always been very careful about the phrasing it uses in its publications. They make suggestions, but the suggestions under the subtle pressures of the Society become more like expectations when expressed from the platform. And, yes, many individuals went into hyper-zealot mode. They were just trying to be faithful and do what they could.

Many quit good jobs and sold their homes to pioneer. Others lived off savings thinking that the end was near. Others bought expensive things they didn't need. What good would a lot of money in the bank be if the end came? The problem isn't that the Society didn't specifically stated that people should do this, it is that they encouraged this behavior rather than calling for balance and good judgment. They allowed this all to go on without any restraint. And then claimed it was all the individual's own fault because the Society never used the words that claimed the end was definitely coming in 1975. They didn't care at all how the individual's future was then thrown into chaos because they relied on what was said in the publications and from the platform.

Molly


************************************************** ***

Hi Molly,

Yes Molly, I am pretty calm and back to "normal (whatever normal is these days LOL) after I allowed myself to get all worked up and act out of character I was pretty ticked off at my anger.

I actually had to pray to Jehovah to help me not to go off the deep end like that again. It sort of reminds me of what could happen to me if I was in a serious situation and I let my feelings get out of control, it could be costly.

In this case, it was not, but after reading several more comments I realized how I need to work more on not allowing myself to lose it especially when I know what I know.

It's these little minor things that help me to grow and realize no matter how human or imperfect I/we all are I need to keep myself in check.

It's a board, a computer, we are talking to people we have never met face to face. (LOL) But words are powerful and so are things we are passionate about, have experienced or believe in. This little episode of mine (for lack of better wording) showed me how easy it is to lose focus. I must continue to work on not doing that.

I think the last thing I will contribute is that we all know we can imply, persuade, etc. etc. We learn this in the TMS. We learn this in growing up. We all really know that things can be said in such a way to make people do things they would not ordinarily do or believe.

The media does it all the time. Lawyers do it all the time. It is so easy to imply, etc.

Years ago, I remember one of the people I worked for said to me "you like to put things in writing." He said "NEVER PUT ANYTHING IN WRITING THAT YOU DO NOT WANT TO SEE AGAIN." I was a secretary and I wrote something and when it was time for my appraisal he WHIPPED IT OUT AND I WAS TOTALLY SHOCKED.

He was an ex-marine from back in the day. He was tough but I learned some good life lessons from that manager.

My point being, from my over 40 years as a secretary and office manager, and also having to compose letters, etc. with people I worked for giving me a few words and then saying you know what I mean, you know what I want to say just type up something and I will read it and sign it.

I understand quite well how language is used and not used. People do it all the time.

Just as I will never ever let anyone in the org mess my mind up again, I will not allow myself to get all worked out and out of character over something like this.

It happened, I know it happened, that's all that is important to me really. People were hurt, people left and it was simply awful. Taught me a good lesson I will never forget and I thank Jehovah for all the good things I have learned from those loving b/s.

As I look back and review my 61 years, sure I wished I had of made some better choices, however; I appreciate now all the mistakes and every negative thing I have gone through. It has made me the person that I am today.

Sort of reminds me of a part of my life when I went through an abusive marriage situation with my X. The abuser messes with your mind and you actually start to believe blue is green because they told you so. You actually believe you are the problem because they continually tell you you are the problem. You are so beatdown and messed up you actually believe all those things they said.

It's crazy how the mind works and those who can do things knowingly or unknowingly that will impact your life for a very long time.

But life goes on. I have to remember this is a CONFOUNDED BOARD, A COMPUTER BOARD. (smiling after a very long day and not so good sleeping night last night)

Thanks Molly I appreciate your expressions and I am still thankful for the relative freedom of speech we have on this site.

Going to bed now tired from my self induced stress of last night (laughing) NUDDER LESSON LEARNED. YES, IT IS TRUE, YOU ARE NEVER TOO MATURE TO LEARN. IT MAY ALSO BE VERY HARD AT TIMES TO BE HUMBLE AND OR STEP BACK AND SAY WELL PERHAPS, IT COULD HAVE HAPPENED, IT IS A POSSIBLITY. I'VE LEARNED TO NEVER MAKE LIGHT OF WHAT SOMEONE ELSE HAS EXPERIENCED BECAUSE IT DID NOT HAPPEN TO ME OR I DID NOT SEE IT WORD FOR WORD IN PRINT.

As you said in your post I will not comment anymore on this. (laughing, that's what I get for teasing you about angels and feathers (eyes really rolling out of their sockets).

Rambling Rose Eyes & Ears

[SWORDOFJAH]

Thanks for your replies. FGM Circumstantial evidence is evidence which requires or allows atrier of fact to make an inference which supports the truth of an assertion (in criminal law, an assertion of guilt or of absence of guilt). That is, the evidence only supports indirectly the truth of the assertion.

You see the evidence only supports indirectly the truth of the assertion.

Now did Franz or any brother made any claim that the end was on 1975??? Never.

Did he or any brother counsel the brotherhood to sell their properties cause of 1975??? Never.

So even in this case the Circumstantial evidence that any would try to use will be fruitless.

You see my brothers those are the facts. If any brother or sister have any expectation regarding the end of the system of things in 1975 or selling properties because of it ,it was never written or counsel by the brothers at Bethel.

Now in this present time, millions are serving Jehovah. If some left because the 1975 they were there perharps following dates that the brothers never gave regarding the end of this wicked system.

[FGM]

Thanks for your replies. FGM Circumstantial evidence is evidence which requires or allows atrier of fact to make an inference which supports the truth of an assertion (in criminal law, an assertion of guilt or of absence of guilt). That is, the evidence only supports indirectly the truth of the assertion.

You see the evidence only supports indirectly the truth of the assertion.

Now did Franz or any brother made any claim that the end was on 1975??? Never.

Did he or any brother counsel the brotherhood to sell their properties cause of 1975??? Never.

So even in this case the Circumstantial evidence that any would try to use will be fruitless.

You see my brothers those are the facts. If any brother or sister have any expectation regarding the end of the system of things in 1975 or selling properties because of it ,it was never written or counsel by the brothers at Bethel.

Now in this present time, millions are serving Jehovah. If some left because the 1975 they were there perharps following dates that the brothers never gave regarding the end of this wicked system.

Well, I will let the supreme Judge Jehovah decide on this
Enough from me on this.

[Molly]

SWORDOFJAH-

I believe that the GB has argued that it is the faithful and discreet slave that dispenses food at the proper time, does it not. Wouldn't the proper food be to suggest that sheep not go off the deep end, when they were aware that that is exactly what they were doing?

What it means is that they were neither faithful or discreet. They abandoned the sheep to whatever. Discreet meant wise. Since half of a milliion sheep went missing two years later, how wise was their policy?

The problem is that they didn't care for the sheep. What project did they have that was more important than that?

Molly

[Eyes & Ears]

A friend of mine who visits our site almost daily , e-mailed this to me.

I've never put anything up before, so if this is not allowed, please remove it and accept my apologies.

I had said I was finished with this topic and I am now, but I thought this information was interesting. OK I am totally done with it.

Thank you,

E & E


http://www.quotes-watchtower.co.uk/

After I entered I clicked on 1975.

[Desert Blossom]

A friend of mine who visits our site almost daily , e-mailed this to me.

I've never put anything up before, so if this is not allowed, please remove it and accept my apologies.

I had said I was finished with this topic and I am now, but I thought this information was interesting. OK I am totally done with it.

Thank you,

E & E


http://www.quotes-watchtower.co.uk/

After I entered I clicked on 1975.

Here's one quote from that page:

Kingdom Ministry May 1974 p.3 How Are You Using Your Life?


Yes, the end of this system is so very near! Is that not reason to increase our activity? In this regard we can learn something from a runner who puts on a final burst of speed near the finish of a race. Look at Jesus, who apparently stepped up his activity during his final days on earth. In fact, over 27 percent of the material in the Gospels is devoted to just the last week of Jesus' earthly ministry!—Matt. 21:1-27:50; Mark 11:1-15:37; Luke 19:29-23:46; John 11:55-19:30.


By carefully and prayerfully examining our own circumstances, we also may find that we can spend more time and energy in preaching during this final period before the present system ends. Many of our brothers and sisters are doing just that. This is evident from the rapidly increasing number of pioneers.


Yes, since the summer of 1973 there have been new peaks in pioneers every month. Now there are 20,394 regular and special pioneers in the United States, an all-time peak. That is 5,190 more than there were in February 1973! A 34-percent increase! Does that not warm our hearts? Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world's end.—1 John 2:17.


[Emphasis Added]

[SlaveForJah]

Here's one quote from that page:

Kingdom Ministry May 1974 p.3 How Are You Using Your Life?


Yes, the end of this system is so very near! Is that not reason to increase our activity? In this regard we can learn something from a runner who puts on a final burst of speed near the finish of a race. Look at Jesus, who apparently stepped up his activity during his final days on earth. In fact, over 27 percent of the material in the Gospels is devoted to just the last week of Jesus' earthly ministry!—Matt. 21:1-27:50; Mark 11:1-15:37; Luke 19:29-23:46; John 11:55-19:30.


By carefully and prayerfully examining our own circumstances, we also may find that we can spend more time and energy in preaching during this final period before the present system ends. Many of our brothers and sisters are doing just that. This is evident from the rapidly increasing number of pioneers.


Yes, since the summer of 1973 there have been new peaks in pioneers every month. Now there are 20,394 regular and special pioneers in the United States, an all-time peak. That is 5,190 more than there were in February 1973! A 34-percent increase! Does that not warm our hearts? Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world's end.—1 John 2:17.


[Emphasis Added]

Hi DB. Don't you know that those quotes are just "from opposers"?:cool:


Agape

SlaveForJah

[Desert Blossom]

Hi DB. Don't you know that those quotes are just "from opposers"?:cool:


Agape

SlaveForJah

(Matthew 12:25-26) . . .“Every kingdom divided against itself comes to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 In the same way, if Satan expels Satan, he has become divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand. . .

[Utuna]

Hi DB. Don't you know that those quotes are just "from opposers"?:cool:

Agape

SlaveForJah
Dear SlaveForJah,

What's the proper question we must ask ourselves?

Who quoted it or who wrote it?

Does what we read become meaningless because opposers quoted unabridged WT articles?

---------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Utuna]

Dear all,

Here are the screenshots of the English, French and Spanish versions from my own copies of the WT Library CD-ROM:

I also inserted the French and the Spanish versions just in case someone would tell us that what happened back in 1974 was just the group hallucination of some american b/s. The phenomenon had effects on a worldwide scale and some people keep saying that nothing was written nor strongly implied at all!

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu294/Utuna/end.jpg

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu294/Utuna/fin.jpg

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu294/Utuna/elfin.jpg

---------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[SWORDOFJAH]

Thanks for those quote. They showed exactly that the brothers never predict the end by 1975 and never counsel to sell properties cause 1975.

Yes even early christian proclaimed the near end of this system.And what a great counsel to as our circuntanses allow us to go and dedicate as much as we can in proclaiming the coming kingdom.

[SlaveForJah]

My answer was meant to be tongue in cheek. I realize that those quotes are not just "from opposers". It's not lost on me that the source site may indeed be run by opposers, but their opposition in no way negates the veracity of their posted quotes.

The WT wants to have it both ways - all of the privileges and none of the responsibilities.

I think Vic provides an excellent object lesson about what can occur when you check your mind at the door.


Agape

SlaveForJah

[FutureMan]

Here's one quote from that page:


By carefully and prayerfully examining our own circumstances, we also may find that we can spend more time and energy in preaching during this final period before the present system ends. Many of our brothers and sisters are doing just that. This is evident from the rapidly increasing number of pioneers.


Yes, since the summer of 1973 there have been new peaks in pioneers every month. Now there are 20,394 regular and special pioneers in the United States, an all-time peak. That is 5,190 more than there were in February 1973! A 34-percent increase! Does that not warm our hearts? Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world's end.—1 John 2:17.


[Emphasis Added]

HELLO ALL, ALL THESE QUOTES ARE FROM ANOTHER SITE.

*** Studies in the Scriptures Vol. 2, 1906 ***

Six Thousand years from the creation of Adam were complete in A.D. 1872, and hence that since A.D. 1872, we chronologically entered upon the seventh thousand or the Millenium.
*** The Time Is at Hand, page ii, (forward) 1916 ***

The Bible chronology herein presented shows that the six great 1000 year days beginning with Adam are ended, and that the great 7th Day, the 1000 years of Christ's Reign, began in 1873.


*** Watchtower 1966 October 15 pp.628-9 Rejoicing over "God's Sons of Liberty" Spiritual Feast ***

Only a liberated people can preach a release to captives, conventioners were told in the speech "Preach a Release to the Captives," which thrilled them with its hopeful outlook. "Jehovah, the God of freedom and liberty, has freed his people from Babylonish bondage and has given them a work of liberation to do. That work of liberation and salvation must go on to the finish! To give aid today in this critical time to prospective sons of God," announced President Knorr, "a new book in English, entitled 'Life Everlasting-in Freedom of the Sons of God,' has been published." At all assembly points where it was released, the book was received enthusiastically. Crowds gathered around stands and soon supplies of the book were depleted. Immediately its contents were examined. It did not take the brothers very long to find the chart beginning on page 31, showing that 6,000 years of man's existence end in 1975. Discussion of 1975 overshadowed about everything else. "The new book compels us to realize that Armageddon is, in fact, very close indeed," said a conventioner. Surely it was one of the outstanding blessings to be carried home!


*** Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God (book) 1966 pp. 26-30 ***

SIX THOUSAND YEARS OF HUMAN EXISTENCE CLOSING


41 Since the time of Ussher intensive study of Bible chronology has been carried on. In this twentieth century an independent study has been carried on that does not blindly follow some traditional chronological calculations of Christendom, and the published timetable resulting from this independent study gives the date of man's creation as 4026 B.C.E. According to this trustworthy Bible chronology six thousand years from man's creation will end in 1975, and the seventh period of a thousand years of human history will begin in the fall of 1975 C.E.
42 So six thousand years of man's existence on earth will soon be up, yes, within this generation.

*** Awake! October 8 1966 pp.19-20 ***

'How Much Longer Will It Be?'

After six thousand years of toil and bondage to sin, sickness, death and Satan, mankind is due to enjoy a rest and is in dire need of a rest. (Heb. 4:1-11) Hence, the fact that we are nearing the end of the first 6,000 years of man's existence is of great significance.. In what year, then, would the first 6,000 years of man's existence and also the first 6,000 years of God's rest day come to an end? The year 1975. This is worthy of notice, particularly in view of the fact that the 'last days' began in 1914, and that the physical facts of our day in fulfillment of prophecy mark this as the last generation of this wicked world. So we can expect the immediate future to be filled with thrilling events for those who rest their faith in God and his promises. It means that within relatively few years we will witness the fulfillment of the remaining prophecies that have to do with the 'time of the end.'




3 Hence, outside the Bible's timetable, most dates set by historians are unreliable. Only a few "assured," or absolute, dates, such as 539 B.C.E., can be accepted as certain. Christians, confident in Jehovah's Word, know that the internal evidence of the Bible is the safest guide in these matters. This helps us to determine with great accuracy where we stand in the stream of time, particularly in regard to the seventh period of time, or "day," mentioned in Genesis. -- Gen. 2:2, 3. [The Watchtower, May, 1, 1968, p. 271]

4 According to reliable Bible chronology Adam was created in the year 4026 B.C.E., likely in the autumn of the year, at the end of the sixth day of creation. Then God brought the animals to man to name. Yet, of Adam, Genesis states these words of Jehovah: "It is not good for the man to continue by himself." (Gen. 2:18) Adam would realize this lonely condition very quickly, perhaps in just a few days or a few weeks. He would realize he needed another earthling with whom he could communicate, share his experiences, and his life. Nor would his naming the animals take an unduly long time. The basic animal kinds could have been relatively quickly named, for when such basic kinds were taken into the ark in Noah's day, it did not involve millions of beasts, but perhaps only a few hundred basic kinds. Thus, Adam's naming of the animals and his realizing that he needed a counterpart would have occupied only a brief time after his creation. Since it was also Jehovah's purpose for man to multiply and fill the earth, it is logical that he would create Eve soon after Adam, perhaps just a few weeks or months later in the same year, 4026 B.C.E. [The Watchtower, May, 1, 1968, p. 271]

5 Therefore, God's seventh day and the time man has been on earth apparently run parallel. To calculate where man is in the stream of time relative to God's seventh day of 7,000 years, we need to determine how long a time has elapsed from the year of Adam and Eve's creation in 4026 B.C.E. From the autumn of that year to the autumn of 1 B.C.E., there would be 4,025 years. From the autumn of 1 B.C.E. to the autumn of 1 C.E. is one year (there was no zero year). From the autumn of 1 C.E. to the autumn of 1967 is a total of 1,966 years. Adding 4,025 and 1 and 1,966, we get 5,992 years from the autumn of 4026 B.C.E. to the autumn of 1967. Thus, eight years remain to account for a full 6,000 years of the seventh day. Eight years from the autumn of 1967 would bring us to the autumn of 1975, fully 6,000 years into God's seventh day, his rest day. [The Watchtower, May, 1, 1968, p. 271]

2 But wait! How do we know their calculations are correct? What basis is there for saying Adam was created nearly 5,993 years ago? Does the one Book that can be implicitly trusted for its truthful historical accuracy, namely, the Inspired Word of Jehovah, the Holy Bible, give support and credence to such a conclusion? [The Watchtower, August 15, 1968, p. 494]

35 One thing is absolutely certain, Bible chronology reinforced with fulfilled Bible prophecy shows that six thousand years of man's existence will soon be up, yes, within this generation! (Matt. 24:34) This is, therefore, no time to be indifferent and complacent. [The Watchtower, August 15, 1968, pp. 500-501]

7 The immediate future is certain to be filled with climactic events, for this old system is nearing its complete end. Within a few years at most the final parts of Bible prophecy relative to these "last days" will undergo fulfillment, resulting in the liberation of surviving mankind into Christ's glorious 1,000-year reign. What difficult days, but, at the same time, what grand days are just ahead! [The Watchtower, May, 1, 1968, p. 272]

By measuring and calculating time, we know we are living in the final years of this system of things. It is crumbling before our very eyes in one orgy of violence and crime after another. Minute by minute, day by day, year by year it moves without fail toward its catastrophic end. There is no going backward for this system. How true, then, in our day, what Paul stated at 1 Corinthians 7:29: "Moreover, this I say, brothers, the time left is reduced." It is especially reduced in our day, as we are near the end of 6,000 years of human history. [The Watchtower, May, 1, 1968, p. 274]

36 Even if one cannot see beyond 1975, is this any reason to be less active? The apostles could not see even this far; they knew nothing about 1975. All they could see was a short time ahead in which to finish the work assigned to them. (1 Pet. 4:7) Hence, there was a ring of alarm and a cry of urgency in all their writings. (Acts 20:20; 2 Tim. 4:2) And rightly so. If they had delayed or dillydallied and had been complacent with the idea the end was some thousands of years off they would never have finished running the race set before them. No, they ran hard and they ran fast, and they won! It was a life or death matter with them. -- 1 Cor. 9:24; 2 Tim. 4:7; Heb. 12:1. [The Watchtower, August 15, 1968, p. 501]

*** Watchtower 1966 October 15 p.631 Rejoicing over "God's Sons of Liberty" Spiritual Feast ***

THE YEAR 1975


At the Baltimore assembly Brother Franz in his closing remarks made some interesting comments regarding the year 1975. He began casually by saying, "Just before I got on the platform a young man came to me and said, 'Say, what does this 1975 mean? Does it mean this, that or any other thing?'" In part, Brother Franz went on to say: 'You have noticed the chart [on pages 31-35 in the book Life Everlasting-in Freedom of the Sons of God]. It shows that 6,000 years of human experience will end in 1975, about nine years from now. What does that mean? Does it mean that God's rest day began 4026 B.C.E.? It could have. The Life Everlasting book does not say it did not. The book merely presents the chronology. You can accept it or reject it. If that is the case, what does that mean to us? [He went into some length showing the feasibility of the 4026 B.C.E. date as being the beginning of God's rest day.]
'What about the year 1975? What is it going to mean, dear friends?' asked Brother Franz. 'Does it mean that Armageddon is going to be finished, with Satan bound, by 1975? It could! It could! All things are possible with God. Does it mean that Babylon the Great is going to go down by 1975? It could. Does it mean that the attack of Gog of Magog is going to be made on Jehovah's witnesses to wipe them out, then Gog himself will be put out of action? It could. But we are not saying. All things are possible with God. But we are not saying. And don't any of you be specific in saying anything that is going to happen between now and 1975. But the big point of it all is this, dear friends: Time is short. Time is running out, no question about that.
'When we were approaching the end of the Gentile Times in 1914, there was no sign that the Gentile Times were going to end. Conditions on earth gave us no hint of what was to come, even as late as June of that year. Then suddenly there was a murder. World War I broke out. You know the rest. Famines, earthquakes and pestilences followed, as Jesus foretold would happen.
'But what do we have today as we approach 1975? Conditions have not been peaceful. We've been having world wars, famines, earthquakes, pestilences and we have these conditions still as we approach 1975. Do these things mean something? These things mean that we're in the "time of the end." And the end has to come sometime. Jesus said: "As these things start to occur, raise yourselves erect and lift your heads up, because your deliverance is getting near." (Luke 21:28) So we know that as we come to 1975 our deliverance is that much nearer.'
*** Public Address by District Overseer Bro. Charles Sunutko in Spring 1967 in Sheboygan, Wisconsin

[Part of the Transcript]
"Serving with Everlasting Life in View"


Well now, as Jehovah's Witnesses, as runners, even though some of us have become a little weary, it almost seems as though Jehovah has provided meat in due season. Because he's held up before all of us, a new goal. A new year. Something to reach out for and it just seems it has given all of us so much more energy and power in this final burst of speed to the finish line. And that's the year 1975.
There's been a lot of talk about the year, in fact even this week some individuals have been wondering, 'well, what does it mean? Do we dare talk about it? Is it something we can discuss among ourselves, even though we may not talk much about it in public? Do we really know what it means?'
Well, we don't have to guess what the year 1975 means if we read the Watchtower. Because the Watchtower has been very explicit as to what the year 1975 means to us. If you wish to write down the page, 262, in the [May 1] 1967 issue of the Watchtower, we read:
What does the year 1975 mean for humankind? The end of 6000 years of human existence, and possibly, [voice raising dramatically] the time when God executes the wicked and starts off a thousand-year reign under his son Jesus Christ.
Unquote. What did it say? The end of 6000 years of human existence and that's all? NO, it gave us a little more to think about there. Did it say for certainty the time when God executes the wicked and starts off a thousand year reign by Jesus Christ? No. But it did give us a glimmer of light. It says [voice rising] possibly, possibly the time when God executes the wicked and starts off the thousand year reign of his son Jesus Christ, [voice returning to normal] 1975.
Doesn't that give you a little bit of excitement about the future? Even if there is the possibility, [voice rising] that's it, when God will bring the battle of Armageddon, and clean this old Earth off? And you'll be ushered right into a paradise Earth for ever more [voice returning to normal]. Never again to be afflicted with this old Satanic system of things. It will be GONE, DOWN. That should excite all of us.
There are the skeptics who say 'well, I'm not going to think about it and not worry about it. I'm not going to pay attention to it.' Well now remember brothers, the faithful and discreet slave is used by Jesus to to what? Jesus says '.' This is meat, and it's come at the right time. And it's in its due season. And it's not wrong to tto provide meat in due seasonhink about it, and to look forward to it.
As far as knowing for sure? Well, we know what we know for sure. We just read it. [voice rising] 'The end of Six Thousand years of human history, and possibly the execution of the wicked and the beginning of the Thousand year reign.' And that should be exciting enough, and talk enough for us.
When you think about it, what a fantastic, short span of time that is.
[...]
How little time there is left. How much to happen.
[...]
There's only one thing that's going to count when that time comes, and that's that we are inside. And we hope that all of us here tonight are going to listen to the Society's imploring.
We're going to listen to their agonizing entreaty "Brothers get in" because they know what's coming! And it's coming fast. And don't wait 'till 1975. The door is going to be shut before then.



*** Watchtower 1967 January 1 p.28 Have You Read Your Copy? ***

Have You Read Your Copy?

But, without a doubt, nothing has created more interest in this textbook than the first chapter with its chart and fine information regarding the 7,000 years of God's rest day. The observation that 1975 may well mark the beginning of mankind's great Jubilee has intrigued many.

*** Watchtower 1967 April 15 pp.229-37 Mankind's Millennium Under God's Kingdom-Why Literally So ***

Mankind's Millennium Under God's Kingdom-Why Literally So

25 Fifteen centuries ago the Roman Catholic "Saint" Augustine spoke of six thousand years of history and referred to the millennium as a "Sabbath," the seventh-day rest period. But he did not hold to this. For centuries now the Bible chronology as worked out by Archbishop James Ussher has been followed by both Catholics and Protestants. This chronology reckons that the first man Adam was created in the year 4004 before Christ, and so six thousand years of human existence on earth will end before this twentieth century ends, or in 1996 C.E. According to a more recent calculation of the Bible timetable, six thousand years of man's existence will end in the latter half of the year 1975, which is well within this century. The Bible millennium is ahead of us, and, according to the count of time and the events of world history, it is approaching.

*** Watchtower 1967 May 1 p.262 Where Are We According to God's Timetable? ***

THE END OF 6,000 YEARS

The generation that was old enough to view those events with understanding in 1914 is no longer young. It no longer has many years to run. Already many of its members have died. But Jesus showed that there would still be members of "this generation" alive at the time of the passing away of this wicked system of things in both heaven and earth. (Luke 21:32, 33) How much longer will it be, then, before God takes action to destroy the wicked and usher in the blessings of his Kingdom rule? Interestingly, the autumn of the year 1975 marks the end of 6,000 years of human experience. This is ascertainable from reliable chronology preserved in the Bible itself. What will that year mean for humankind? Will it be the time when God executes the wicked and starts off the thousand-year reign of his Son Jesus Christ? It very well could, but we will have to wait to see. Yet of this we can be certain: the generation that Jesus said would witness those events is nearing its close. The time is close at hand. On God's "timetable" we are in the closing days of a wicked system of things that will soon be gone forever. A glorious new order is immediately before us.
*** Our Kingdom Ministry March 1968 p.4 ***

Making some special effort to do more than the usual helps us live up to our dedication. In view of the short period of time left, we want to do this as often as circumstances permit. Just think, brothers, there are only about ninety months left before 6,000 years of man's existence on earth is completed… Do you remember what we learned at the assemblies last summer? The majority of people living today will probably be alive when Armageddon breaks out, and there are no resurrection hopes for those who are destroyed then. So, now more than ever, it is vital not to ignore that spirit of wanting to do more.




*** Yearbook 2000 pp.196-7 Czech Republic ***

"Six Thousand Years of Human Existence"

In 1969 the Watchtower magazine in Czech began publishing a series of articles based on the book Life Everlasting-In Freedom of the Sons of God. Chapter 1, under the subheading "Six Thousand Years of Human Existence Closing," contained an explanation of the Jubilee and of Bible chronology. This material influenced some in a positive way; it also led to many questions and much speculation.
The office in Czechoslovakia sent a letter dated February 22, 1972, to all congregations. It set out a lengthy explanation of reasons why we should not make any definite assertions about the date when Armageddon will strike. It pointed out that no publication of the Society had said that Armageddon will come in a certain year. The letter concluded: "Jehovah's Witnesses around the world are familiar with these facts, and no one should add any personal claims as to what will happen before or during the year 1975. There are no Scriptural grounds for any claims, and they could have a detrimental effect on the preaching work. Strive, therefore, that you 'all speak in agreement and that there be no divisions among you but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.' (1 Cor. 1:10) For concerning that day and hour nobody knows."-Matt. 24:36.

[noname]

Good research Future Man. I also see where Sword of Jah is coming from. Many use 1975 as a crutch not to serve Jehovah at all and to dismiss many real truths.

Yet even at the recent district assembly they mentioned the 1975 mistake. Citing it as a False Alarm, and they were doing their job in Keeping on the Watch. Saying noone should complain about this because they were tryin to save ya. Well it seems like a resonable excuse. But noone should undermine the damage that False Alarm caused, the one that sends a False Alarm still should be held responsible for that damage, even if they were in good intentions.

[TheMdC]

The problem is that despite articles like the "Trust Us" and the "We're in Charge of the Faithful and Discreet Slave" from earlier this year, the GB has shown that in matters of prophecy they CAN'T be trusted. They've simply been wrong every single time. Trust must be earned.

That creates a challenge for one who wishes to be faithful to Jehovah.

Ok, these men have published Bible education materials that have helped people clean up their lives and serve God with a clean conscience on the one hand. Good. But on the other hand they've misled those same people with untenable, self-serving, and at times blasphemous prophetic interpretations.

So a lover of truth has to ask himself: Does the good outweigh the bad? Is Jehovah's Holy Spirit really working through this group? Do they really represent his interests here on earth just because they use His holy name?

Many brothers and sisters here have determined that no, the GB of the WT is too corrupt to remain a part of. Others are hanging on to the organization for now, believing that Jehovah's cleansing of it is imminent. And others have had their decision made for them by the org or its elders themselves, being DFd.

Each of us must carry his own load. We musn't judge one another regardless of which of the above categories we fall into.

[arimatthewdavies]

WHAT IM ABOUT TO WRITE MAY CHANGE EVERYTHING ABOUT THE TMELINE WE KNOW......
remember joshua? Remember how the sun stood still in the sky? during the battle......NO ONE IS ABLE TO CALCULATE!!! the timeline BECAUSE jehovah did a time miracle THROWING OFF Any record we think we have... here is why. in order for the sun to apear still in the sky jehovah likley displaced time on earth for about 12 hours .....now use einsteins therory of relativaty on this...if jehovah displaced time for about 12 hours on earth anywere from 600 year to 60 million years depending on the earths velocity passed in real time.........while time was bent.. had jehovah simpley stoped earths rotatation we would all have been destroyed by huge tidal ways from the sudden stop this may also explain why radiocarbon dateing says we have been around for millions of years carbon decay would have continued showing the actual real time that went by.... if you dont understand what i just wrote post and i will do my best.

[TheMdC]

I get what you're saying scientifically, but if we're not trying to decipher and rely on dates, what is the relevance to the last days?

I can see some geologic relevance, but I don't get the prophetic relevance.

[arimatthewdavies]

here is the formula if you want to see how many years off a 12 hour time displacment causes,earths axis rotation speed 1000mph multiplyed by our average solar orbit of 666k mph mph=66600000 by divided by 18600000 [light] 3.58 times the speed by 12 hours= 42.96 years therefore our 6000 years of man was off by 42.96 years in 1975 ..that is if all speeds and time the sun stood still was 12 hours......confused yet?? now of course radio carbon continued to decay for what would apear as 42.96 million years now remember even 1 variance meteor, solar flare would change everything..so now you have pretty solid explaination for the evoloutionists
and also a viable answer to why the 6000 years is not corect neither could it be calculated. by the way it you happen to notice that 666 is the comon denominator of the eqation hmmmm , please feel free to correct any errors, but be warned it could take you 40 million years to do so l.o.l

[Utuna]

From your comments my friend you realize that the brothers never claim or counsel anything to the brothers. Also that any prediction of the end reagrding 1975 never took place.

If any brother or sister took any decision regarding their properties it was their own choice.But no one can blame the brothers for it cause the counsel never was given.

By the way I was there in New York by the time. And we never took any article to the matter of fact to sell or get rid of any property cause it was a direct counsel or even an imply counsel.

Again opposers like to misrepresent our brothers. Their tactics have failed my friend. 1975 have passed and Jehovah's servants are united and preaching the good news worldwide.

It is always nice to talk and have the correct facts regarding our brotherhood.

With respect SWORDOFJAH.

Dear SWORDOFJAH,

My dear brother, there is something for which I have a very short fuse. I CAN'T stand the members of this DB being taken for fools, myself included. Please, I beg you, stop that SOPHISM (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sophism)of yours!

Yes! You're right! Our brothers, as you call them, never wrote plainly that b/s had to sell their houses and be pioneers before 1975. Yes, our brothers never affirmed that Armageddon would take place in October 1975. But, of course, they would never ever have done it that way! It’s obvious that a minimum of cautiousness is required when talking about future events. That cautiousness doesn’t preclude the fact that the guiding thread of all the articles quoted above means that our brothers were expecting something very big and imminent before the end of 1975. As quoted above, the seventh day (in other words, the sabbath, the rest of God) was due to begin after that date. Har-maguedon had to take place before the start of said seventh day. In other words, they were expecting the end, no matter how you twist the real meaning of what’s written in the articles.

Sentences such as this one: “Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world's end.” prove that that “fine way” of which it’s talked is to sell homes and properties in order to finish out the rest of the days in the pioneer service.

You know as I do that zealous b/s follow counsels to the letter and that elders are exhorted to incite anyone to do the same. Zealous b/s interpret counsels as vivid recommendations because their earnest desire is to please God the way they're told. As an illustration, nowadays, Bethel gives counsels that all business contracts between brothers must be written down. What will all the spiritual brothers do? Will they ignore that counsel? Is it honest to pretend that Bethel says that anyone is free to do what he wants? It’s easy to incite others to do things the “fine way” and to say later on that they were free not to follow it and that it is their responsibility if things turned out bad.

You know what others think about givers of advice? It's very easy to give advice when you're not going to suffer the consequences.

Please read also: “Just think, brothers, there are only about ninety months left before 6,000 years of man's existence on earth is completed… Do you remember what we learned at the assemblies last summer? The majority of people living today will probably be alive when Armageddon breaks out, and there are no resurrection hopes for those who are destroyed then. So, now more than ever, it is vital not to ignore that spirit of wanting to do more.”

In this paragraph, the GB links the ninety months left with the notion of Armageddon. Everything is strongly implied but never plainly said. Unless you’re unable to read a paragraph without getting the sense of the whole of it, you can’t prove me wrong on this. An article is not just a sequence of independent sentences, they are all interdependent according to the context in which they were written. If that reasoning is true regarding articles, it’s all the more true applied to paragraphs such as the one quoted above.

FURTHERMORE, YOU KNOW, AS I DO, THAT THE GB DOESN'T HAVE TO SAY THINGS PLAINLY IN ORDER TO BE UNDERSTOOD THAT WAY ANYWAY!

The GB can use all the : may, might, be likely to, be possible that, perhaps, maybe, in each and every language of the earth, what they write is considered as truth, whatever the subject. They can use all the euphemisms they wish (by counseling instead of affirming), that's a reality in the org and they skillfully use it.

A few months ago, a WT article said that, in the time of the end, the preaching work could be compared to the seven turns done around the town of Jericho. There were many “may, might, be possible that, etc” used in the article. Nevertheless, in my congregation, the elder who presided the study hardly stressed on the uncertainty of the hypothesis. What was written in the article was considered as true and the elder was amazed by this new light. I’m sure that this situation happened a thousand times in the world. Would you then wonder if a powerful feeling of imminence of the end nurtured for years before 1975 had been born in the hearts of hundreds of thousands of brothers and sisters because of an intensive spiritual hype about the twin notion of the end of the sixth day and Armageddon?

Furthermore, there's a French expression that says: "Les paroles s'envolent, les écrits restent". It means "Speech flies away, writings remain". Do you understand what I mean? I mean that the voice of the GB is twofold. On the one hand, we have the official credo written in the WT articles, which are skillfully written in order to avoid to take on any future responsibilities and, on the other hand, we have the exegesis carried out by members of the GB, DO, CO and elders from all sorts of platforms. You can’t say that nothing happened because nothing is expressly written. It’s not just the responsibility of the brothers who may have talked too much. Many talked too much because of what was implied in the articles and also because they were allowed to (especially during conventions).

As a conclusion of what I wanted to demonstrate here, I think that such a figurative “negationism” (of which you are a zealous herald) is particularly insulting towards the thousands of brothers and sisters who suffered a lot because of the fits of “prophetical” frenzy to which the GB gave in during the early 70’s. When hundreds of thousands of persons are affected and suffer a lot because of a so-called misunderstanding, it is a very serious lack of love to say that the way biblical issues were then presented have no cause and effect relation with the sad situations that resulted from said misunderstanding.

Even Barack Obama admitted that he had screwed up… didn’t he?

---------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[TheMdC]

The letters from the organization to the CO's and bodies of elders during that period would be a fascinating study, IMO, but they would likely only confirm what we already know but many refuse to believe.

As for the argument SwordOfJah makes, he uses the word "never" which is a cardinal sin of debate/discussion. It destroys credibility because there are no absolutes where human behavior is concerned. For Jehovah, yes there are absolutes; for the things people do, you can't say the WT "never" did something. You can say "there is no written proof" that they did such and such, but you can't say never, and neither can you say "always."

Even the WT knows better than to use such language.

Excellent post, Utuna, though I'm afraid it is falling on some deaf ears.

[Nash]

The fact of the matter is that the Society is covering up its tracks.

The Society is always careful to not put anything definite in print. Rather, they will insinuate and use weasel words to give an impression without making a straightforward statement. However, they will use talks to emphazise what they want people to hear. Of course, if they do put something in print and it ends up being grossly wrong, they revise it and try to hide it, like they did with the January 1, 1989 Watchtower.

On youtube, search for a video entitled "Jehovah's Witnesses & 1975" by Shazoolo (disclaimer: I don't endorse all of of his theological viewpoints) and you will hear a talk given which clearly indicates that the door would be closed in 1975.

Incidentally, I have a recording of a covertly taped judicial committee from 1984 where 1975 was discussed at length and the couple 'on trial' explained clearly that that Watchtower and its representatives said that the end was going to come in 1975.

These recordings, coupled with the fact that the Watchtower, at the very least, strongly insinuated in print that the end would come in 1975, is enough to show a reasonable person that the Watchtower made a serious error.

Then, of course, there are the other errors that they have tried to hide. Quite rightly, the Watchtower, at least in my view, has lost all credibility.

To make matters worse, throughout the Watchtower's history, whenever they have been caught with their pants down, they make excuses and blame others (or, the victims, as the case may be). They quietly bury the issues and suppress any information that could expose them. How satanic!

I also speak from personal experience when I say that the Watchtower and its elders are extremely devious.

This is why many in the organization are fed up of hearing excuses from a pathetic governing body who are content to be wolves in sheep's clothing, elders who have no brains and are merely 'yes men,' and the rank-and-file members who go where the wind blows and converse with 'programmed responses.'

Can you blame many for leaving the organization? I can't. I don't know of anyone who should put up with the mental, emotional, psychological, and spiritual abuse that the Society dishes out. (Not that I endorse leaving.)

Can you imagine what Jehovah really thinks when he sees all of this?

Nash

[arimatthewdavies]

i am not an oposer in anyway i am glad their are jehovahs wittneses sticking closer to jesus basic gospel these days i was baptised at 15 at divine victory im not going to defend the 1975 thing cause even brother knor stressed that 6000 years since mans begining ment armagedon was very near and i got baptised because i was sure from everyone around id be destroyed if i wasent ,maybe jehovah showed mercy because so many repented, who knows but why dont they just draging that thing on, say out right, yes it did happen were sorry and move on its been 30 years and untill it happens this nasty issue will haunt us all,satans had a field day on this one i want to see permanant healing i cant wittness without someone bringing it up and shoveing one of those apostate tracts at me,I just tell them i cant answer for joe im here to encourege you with some of jesus christs words can i share this short verse with you? i carry a king james cause the next rebutal is likley your bible is inacurate then i say please show me and hand them the opened bible i either get a bible study or the door slamed l.ol i like this place the bible says iron sharpens iron and from what i see so far is great..

[SWORDOFJAH]

Utuna wrote
Yes! You're right! Our brothers, as you call them, never wrote plainly that b/s had to sell their houses and be pioneers before 1975. Yes, our brothers never affirmed that Armageddon would take place in October 1975.

Thanks my friend. Those are the facts. Now... what we contribute about 1975 are merely opinions that I sincerely respect.

[Utuna]

Utuna wrote
Yes! You're right! Our brothers, as you call them, never wrote plainly that b/s had to sell their houses and be pioneers before 1975. Yes, our brothers never affirmed that Armageddon would take place in October 1975.

Thanks my friend. Those are the facts. Now... what we contribute about 1975 are merely opinions that I sincerely respect.

Dear SWORDOFJAH,

Please, at least, try to be honest when you quote my words!

As I explained you in my long post, my thoughts as I wrote them all can't be boiled down to the two sentences you selected. My thoughts are my post as a whole.

UTUNA WROTE? NO, THAT'S NOT WHAT I WROTE!

Moreover, I think that all the brothers and sisters who suffered from what happened about 35 years ago, no matter who is the culprit, will appreciate the kind words of brotherly love and of comfort you wrote for them. In fact, that's exactly the point about which I was eagerly expecting an answer from your part. Thanks, now, I know what I wanted to know.

---------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[SWORDOFJAH]

Hello Utuna. I wrote or quote what I consider is the main objective of my posts in this thread. As you stated Our brothers, as you call them, never wrote plainly that b/s had to sell their houses and be pioneers before 1975. Yes, our brothers never affirmed that Armageddon would take place in October 1975.


With these statements I fully agree my friend. I love the entire brotherhood and pray for those that have been hurt in what way or another.

But certainly my friend we cannot say things that are incorrect like some have done regarding 1975. JW'S now in the present are doing what the master commanded... Preaching and teaching worldwide in an united,lovely worldwide "imperfect" brotherhod.

Take care friend. Paz para ti.

[uglyandthin]

Hi SwordofJah:

I have read many of your posts over the years and I must say that you appear to be a person of strong faith. For that I commend you, not that my commendation means much, but I wanted to do it anyway, cause that's how I really feel, I'm not just trying to butter you up for when I have to disagree with you, but I do totally disagree with you on this point.

Did you even read any of the information that was presented? Specifically, the May 1974 KM? You are correct, in reviewing that document the Society NEVER, I repeat NEVER actually "commanded" or "told" anyone to sell thier houses and pioneer. That I will give you. But in this same respect, can you with a straight face tell me that that instruction was not the key point that eminated thoughout that entire article and many others like it? After reading it 35 years later I was almost motivated to sell my house right now, seek reinstatement and apply for pioneering when my probation period would be over (hope I am not too late).

At the least, you would be along with the GB, disingenuous to not admit that although they may have never said the actual words, that the influencial members of the Society (Franz and his supporters) were convinced beyond any reasonable doubt that 1975 was the end and they were very convincing to the rest of the flock as to how they felt. Yeah, they hedged thier bet, but they kept thier bet down till the horses were out of the starting gate. Many thousands of B/S faith met with shipwreck over this issue. They (the individuals) personally carry the major portion of that load, but the Society is at least partially responsible, but to no avail. They have never made that mistake thier own, and once more, they have NEVER EVER to my knowledge ever apologized for it. Just like they never apologized for the U.N. adultery. I love your sense of loyalty, but I fear for you that it is misdirected. Your loyalty should be to Jehovah and his Son and not to the GB (that is not one and the same thing). That's my speel and I'm sticking to it.

uglyandthin

[SWORDOFJAH]

Hello uglyandthin. Interesting your post. You stated "You are correct, in reviewing that document the Society NEVER, I repeat NEVER actually "commanded" or "told" anyone to sell thier houses and pioneer".

In that we aagree. So my dear friend if you like me know that they never told anyone to do so why say otherwise????

Now you stated "the least, you would be along with the GB, disingenuous to not admit that although they may have never said the actual words, that the influencial members of the Society (Franz and his supporters) were convinced beyond any reasonable doubt that 1975 was the end and they were very convincing to the rest of the flock as to how they felt".

To say such statement is guessing motives or thoughts that cannot be proven. As you stated they never told anyone to do so why then say that (Franz and his supporters) were convinced beyond any reasonable doubt that 1975 was the end and they were very convincing to the rest of the flock as to how they felt".

Don't you see a contradiction???

Friend my loyalty is for the truth and as you can testify they never "commanded" or "told" anyone to sell thier houses and pioneer". Or that the end was on 1975.

You can be sure that if any of them have told such statement I was the first one to point out such claim. But I can cause they did not make such claims.

And please remember I was in New York by the time.

Paz amigo.

[FGM]

Hello uglyandthin. Interesting your post. You stated "You are correct, in reviewing that document the Society NEVER, I repeat NEVER actually "commanded" or "told" anyone to sell thier houses and pioneer".

In that we aagree. So my dear friend if you like me know that they never told anyone to do so why say otherwise????

Now you stated "the least, you would be along with the GB, disingenuous to not admit that although they may have never said the actual words, that the influencial members of the Society (Franz and his supporters) were convinced beyond any reasonable doubt that 1975 was the end and they were very convincing to the rest of the flock as to how they felt".

To say such statement is guessing motives or thoughts that cannot be proven. As you stated they never told anyone to do so why then say that (Franz and his supporters) were convinced beyond any reasonable doubt that 1975 was the end and they were very convincing to the rest of the flock as to how they felt".

Don't you see a contradiction???

Friend my loyalty is for the truth and as you can testify they never "commanded" or "told" anyone to sell thier houses and pioneer". Or that the end was on 1975.

You can be sure that if any of them have told such statement I was the first one to point out such claim. But I can cause they did not make such claims.

And please remember I was in New York by the time.

Paz amigo.

A slight inclination of the cranium is as good as a spasmodic movement of one optic to an equine quadruped totally devoid of it's visionary powers.

You can say it how you like but the society encouraged the expectation of Armageddon in 1975. If they had not, then no one would have been expecting it. Where was the source of this expectation? It certainly didn't come from anywhere else.

[TheMdC]

A slight inclination of the cranium is as good as a spasmodic movement of one optic to an equine quadruped totally devoid of it's visionary powers.

That is awesome! Made my day. :lol:

[SWORDOFJAH]

but the society encouraged the expectation of Armageddon in 1975.

Prove it. Otherwise shhhhh.lol

[FutureMan]

but the society encouraged the expectation of Armageddon in 1975.

Prove it. Otherwise shhhhh.lol

If we look to the Bible (Hebrew scriptures) for examples of where God's people were misled by their leaders we do not have to look far.

Jehovah always held the leaders, responsible for the way the people acted.
The same goes for today.

[TheMdC]

Why is anyone still arguing this? It's been established at the mouth of many witnesses. Just because one guy keeps dragging it out doesn't mean it's still open for debate.

It isn't. It happened. The end.

[Nash]

Hi SwordofJah,

If you look on youtube for the video that I discussed in my earlier post, you will see that the Society did in fact say that the door will be closed by then.

Nash

[Desert Blossom]

but the society encouraged the expectation of Armageddon in 1975.

Prove it. Otherwise shhhhh.lol

Jehovah's Witnesses and 1975 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIEZx74P5ck)

This is the video Nash mentioned. It's just the tip of the iceberg of evidence.

One of Satan's snares that he has laid out for us is training us to put our trust in man, instead of Jesus and Jehovah. He has used the false parousia to set up false expectations to get as many as possible diverted from the real means of salvation. The message from the Bible is simple, religions, including the WTB&TS, make it complicated.

(Jeremiah 7:1-11) . . .The word that occurred to Jeremiah from Jehovah, saying: 2 “Stand in the gate of the house of Jehovah, and you must proclaim there this word, and you must say, ‘Hear the word of Jehovah, all YOU of Judah, who are entering into these gates to bow down to Jehovah. 3 This is what Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, has said: “Make YOUR ways and YOUR dealings good, and I will keep YOU people residing in this place. 4 Do not put YOUR trust in fallacious words, saying, ‘The temple of Jehovah, the temple of Jehovah, the temple of Jehovah they are!’ 5 For if YOU will positively make YOUR ways and YOUR dealings good, if YOU will positively carry out justice between a man and his companion, 6 if no alien resident, no fatherless boy and no widow YOU will oppress, and innocent blood YOU will not shed in this place, and after other gods YOU will not walk for calamity to yourselves, 7 I, in turn, shall certainly keep YOU residing in this place, in the land that I gave to YOUR forefathers, from time indefinite even to time indefinite.”’”

8 “Here YOU are putting YOUR trust in fallacious words—it will certainly be of no benefit at all. 9 Can there be stealing, murdering and committing adultery and swearing falsely and making sacrificial smoke to Ba′al and walking after other gods whom YOU had not known, 10 and must YOU come and stand before me in this house upon which my name has been called, and must YOU say, ‘We shall certainly be delivered,’ in the face of doing all these detestable things? 11 Has this house upon which my name has been called become a mere cave of robbers in YOUR eyes? Here I myself also have seen [it],” is the utterance of Jehovah.

[FGM]

but the society encouraged the expectation of armageddon in 1975.

Prove it. Otherwise shhhhh.lol

rofl !!!!!!!

[Nightflyer]

A pretty good article about this: http://ebedabodah.blogspot.com/2009/06/1975-what-really-was-said.html

[TheMdC]

Great link, Nightflyer. Not just because of this topic but because I find it encouraging to know that our little group of friends here at e-j-w aren't the only JWs who understand what is going on.

I'd love to know how many of us there are worldwide.

[James]

.

I'd love to know how many of us there are worldwide.

Great question. 50 million plus? Who knows? Everyday more and more are learning the truth and the deceptions, in large part thanks to the internet.

If I may paraphrase, out of context, 'there are more who are with us, than there are with them'.

And thanks Nightflyer for the link, I'd add it to my collection of sites.

James

[SWORDOFJAH]

Let see what the blogger admits in his own blog.

However, even though the Society has been wrong about many things, was 1975 really one of them? Did the Governing Body of the Watchtower Society really say that Armageddon was going to happen that year?

No. But they didn't have to.


So there you have it. He clearly said no,they did not proclaim the end by 1975.

[FutureMan]

Let see what the blogger admits in his own blog.

However, even though the Society has been wrong about many things, was 1975 really one of them? Did the Governing Body of the Watchtower Society really say that Armageddon was going to happen that year?

No. But they didn't have to.


So there you have it. He clearly said no,they did not proclaim the end by 1975.


Yes you are quite correct SWORDOFJAH, the "faithful and discreet slave" (governing body) have learned to be a lot smarter than that.

[Desert Blossom]

Let see what the blogger admits in his own blog.

However, even though the Society has been wrong about many things, was 1975 really one of them? Did the Governing Body of the Watchtower Society really say that Armageddon was going to happen that year?

No. But they didn't have to.


So there you have it. He clearly said no,they did not proclaim the end by 1975.


At least you didn't leave out the part highlighted in red. The rest of the blogger's post went on to explain that part, and FutureMan gave the reason why.

One thing that disturbs me about the org. is how they put so much effort into protecting themselves from liability. The "we-never-said-that" defense is not going to hold up when judgment time comes around. Jesus is going to be the ultimate cross-examiner, and whatever arguments are made to excuse the GB from what they did in the past are simply not going to hold up.

That is why Jesus was so forthright in his counsel to the 7 congregations in chapters 2 and 3 of Revelation. He spells out very clearly what the problems are and specifies the time period to boot. What does the Society do? They deflect, deviate, and distract us from the real meaning of the counsel in those chapters. That will be to the detriment of many of the sheep who listen to their voice over the voice of our true shepherd, Jesus Christ.

In this forum we try to keep it real, so when someone comes along who tries to deflect, deviate, and distract us from what is really going on, or what has really taken place in the past, it just give us more opportunity to witness to the truth, so thank you. In the end, Jesus will get it all sorted out. In the meantime, now is the time for self-examination, the time to repent, the time to turn around, and make our paths straight. Thank you Jehovah and Jesus for giving us this time.

[Nightflyer]

Great link, Nightflyer. Not just because of this topic but because I find it encouraging to know that our little group of friends here at e-j-w aren't the only JWs who understand what is going on.

I'd love to know how many of us there are worldwide.

I dont know but I really wish there are many... and I bet there are, too, they are just afraid to talk about these issues for obvious reasons.

And btw, very well said Desert Blossom! :clap:

[panda]

From your comments my friend you realize that the brothers never claim or counsel anything to the brothers. Also that any prediction of the end reagrding 1975 never took place.

If any brother or sister took any decision regarding their properties it was their own choice.But no one can blame the brothers for it cause the counsel never was given.

By the way I was there in New York by the time. And we never took any article to the matter of fact to sell or get rid of any property cause it was a direct counsel or even an imply counsel.

Again opposer'sopposer's like to misrepresent our brothers. Their tactics have failed my friend. 1975 have passed and Jehovah's servants are united and preaching the good news worldwide.

It is always nice to talk and have the correct facts regarding our brotherhood.

With respect SWORDOFJAH.Hello SOJ, in all due respects b/s, you sound like a politician defending some political party or politicians in a court of law. But the only law that matters is Jehovah's and his law of love, Satan never comes out and says things straight out, but cunningly implies, and tricks, he tries to get to the emotions of his victims.

I can tell you that I have family members that sold their homes and bought a caravan went where the need was great, used all their resources, because they believed that the FDS was encouraging all brothers to reach out more because the time was fast approaching the end of the system, many others did the same.

They said that a Jubilee year in 76, that means a celebration year, so they reminded the b/s of the importance of 75.

I would also like to say that the 1995 so called new light was a lie, that this was an old 1927 teaching resurrected and told of as new light, they didn't mention that fact.

I know in my heart that in Jehovah's due time all will be revealed and will be so obvious that a decision will not be hard to make, but one must remember that Jesus resurrected the dead in front of the Pharisees and they still did not believe, and many denied the Christ. Some will want to follow the old way of the WTS and look to the GB.

How can we be in a spiritual paradise when their are pedophiles within the congregations, the GB paying gag money to shut up the victims, why didn't they inform the b/s of the millions of their donations to Jehovah for the kingdom work was being paid out to protect the name of the WTS.

I'm could go on and on. But one thing I will say is that some loving and good food do still come for the table at bethel NY, but some of it is from the father of the liar Satan the Devil.

Come Lord Jesus our King and clean out this adulterous house, help our b/s that are crying and groaning about the terrible things happening in the midst of them.

Our Father in the heavens let YOUR name be sanctified let YOUR kingdom come, let YOUR will take place on earth as in heaven...Matt 6:9 :)

[Utuna]

Hello SOJ, in all due respects b/s, you sound like a politician defending some political party or politicians in a court of law. But the only law that matters is Jehovah's and his law of love, Satan never comes out and says things straight out, but cunningly implies, and tricks, he tries to get to the emotions of his victims.

I can tell you that I have family members that sold their homes and bought a caravan went where the need was great, used all their resources, because they believed that the FDS was encouraging all brothers to reach out more because the time was fast approaching the end of the system, many others did the same.

They said that a Jubilee year in 76, that means a celebration year, so they reminded the b/s of the importance of 75.

I would also like to say that the 1995 so called new light was a lie, that this was an old 1927 teaching resurrected and told of as new light, they didn't mention that fact.

I know in my heart that in Jehovah's due time all will be revealed and will be so obvious that a decision will not be hard to make, but one must remember that Jesus resurrected the dead in front of the Pharisees and they still did not believe, and many denied the Christ. Some will want to follow the old way of the WTS and look to the GB.

How can we be in a spiritual paradise when their are pedophiles within the congregations, the GB paying gag money to shut up the victims, why didn't they inform the b/s of the millions of their donations to Jehovah for the kingdom work was being paid out to protect the name of the WTS.

I'm could go on and on. But one thing I will say is that some loving and good food do still come for the table at bethel NY, but some of it is from the father of the liar Satan the Devil.

Come Lord Jesus our King and clean out this adulterous house, help our b/s that are crying and groaning about the terrible things happening in the midst of them.

Our Father in the heavens let YOUR name be sanctified let YOUR kingdom come, let YOUR will take place on earth as in heaven...Matt 6:9 :)
Dear panda,

The sentence that you wrote and that I put in bold types made me think about those verses recorded in Luke 5:36-39:

"Further, he went on to give an illustration to them: “No one cuts a patch from a new outer garment and sews it onto an old outer garment; but if he does, then both the new patch tears away and the patch from the new garment does not match the old. Moreover, no one puts new wine into old wineskins; but if he does, then the new wine will burst the wineskins, and it will be spilled out and the wineskins will be ruined. But new wine must be put into new wineskins. No one that has drunk old wine wants new; for he says, ‘The old is nice.’”

Interestingly, Luke is the only one to add that last sentence to Jesus' illustration.

---------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[shikinah]

Hello SOJ, in all due respects b/s, you sound like a politician defending some political party or politicians in a court of law. But the only law that matters is Jehovah's and his law of love, Satan never comes out and says things straight out, but cunningly implies, and tricks, he tries to get to the emotions of his victims.

I can tell you that I have family members that sold their homes and bought a caravan went where the need was great, used all their resources, because they believed that the FDS was encouraging all brothers to reach out more because the time was fast approaching the end of the system, many others did the same.

They said that a Jubilee year in 76, that means a celebration year, so they reminded the b/s of the importance of 75.

I would also like to say that the 1995 so called new light was a lie, that this was an old 1927 teaching resurrected and told of as new light, they didn't mention that fact.

I know in my heart that in Jehovah's due time all will be revealed and will be so obvious that a decision will not be hard to make, but one must remember that Jesus resurrected the dead in front of the Pharisees and they still did not believe, and many denied the Christ. Some will want to follow the old way of the WTS and look to the GB.

How can we be in a spiritual paradise when their are pedophiles within the congregations, the GB paying gag money to shut up the victims, why didn't they inform the b/s of the millions of their donations to Jehovah for the kingdom work was being paid out to protect the name of the WTS.

I'm could go on and on. But one thing I will say is that some loving and good food do still come for the table at bethel NY, but some of it is from the father of the liar Satan the Devil.

Come Lord Jesus our King and clean out this adulterous house, help our b/s that are crying and groaning about the terrible things happening in the midst of them.

Our Father in the heavens let YOUR name be sanctified let YOUR kingdom come, let YOUR will take place on earth as in heaven...Matt 6:9 :)

Thank you Panda,
such wise words, Jehovah hears our cry for justice and in due time we will see it played out in all its glory:)

Shikinah x

[arimatthewdavies]

i have to say this,how many people lost faith in the organization due to repeated error? i dont know . i do know that i no longer respect them like i did as a child,i used to beleive that the leaders were all anointed who got orders from jehovah then delivered them to the congregation elders, i was sadened to learn that along with jehovahs food came pieces of cattle food mixed in. i guess ive got a choice here fillet of christendom, or kingdom caserole surprise! l.o.l. luckey for me i ate it long enough to be used to it,but how i look forward to the time jesus will bring the pure fresh food straight from jehovahs own hands oh what a joy that will be!

[Desert Blossom]

i have to say this,how many people lost faith in the organization due to repeated error? i dont know . i do know that i no longer respect them like i did as a child,i used to beleive that the leaders were all anointed who got orders from jehovah then delivered them to the congregation elders, i was sadened to learn that along with jehovahs food came pieces of cattle food mixed in. i guess ive got a choice here fillet of christendom, or kingdom caserole surprise! l.o.l. luckey for me i ate it long enough to be used to it,but how i look forward to the time jesus will bring the pure fresh food straight from jehovahs own hands oh what a joy that will be!

Kingdom casserole, good one! :lol:

I've spoken with a number of JW's who have lost faith in the org., but still express belief in Jehovah and Jesus. I figure, when Jesus comes along and cleans house, these lost sheep are going to take notice, and appreciate the significance of what is happening. I think that is one of the things that is going to help them heal their relationship with Jehovah and exercise faith in Jesus.

[truthseeker]

Hi All
I seam to have forgot how to start a thread?:confused:
Any one - Any one:)

[shikinah]

i have to say this,how many people lost faith in the organization due to repeated error? i dont know . i do know that i no longer respect them like i did as a child,i used to beleive that the leaders were all anointed who got orders from jehovah then delivered them to the congregation elders, i was sadened to learn that along with jehovahs food came pieces of cattle food mixed in. i guess ive got a choice here fillet of christendom, or kingdom caserole surprise! l.o.l. luckey for me i ate it long enough to be used to it,but how i look forward to the time jesus will bring the pure fresh food straight from jehovahs own hands oh what a joy that will be!

Do you know what arimatthewdavies,
I'm embarrassed to even admit, that is only this week that i realised that the governing body isnt made up of the anointed, and that they are not involved in all aspects of organisational preparation:blush:
I bet if you asked the majority of witnesses they would think the same also. Oh well you live and learn:mellow:

[truthseeker]

Do you know what arimatthewdavies,
I'm embarrassed to even admit, that is only this week that i realised that the governing body isnt made up of the anointed, and that they are not involved in all aspects of organisational preparation:blush:
I bet if you asked the majority of witnesses they would think the same also. Oh well you live and learn:mellow:

Really! how do you know that as a fact Shikinah?:mellow:

Truthseeker

[TheMdC]

Could you clarify that? Are you saying that not all of the GB members claim to be of the anointed? Or just that you don't believe they actually are anointed? I was pretty sure they all drink the wine and eat the bread. Am I wrong about that?

[SlaveForJah]

Could you clarify that? Are you saying that not all of the GB members claim to be of the anointed? Or just that you don't believe they actually are anointed? I was pretty sure they all drink the wine and eat the bread. Am I wrong about that?

Perhaps this is what is being referred to:

"Therefore it has been decided to invite several helpers, mainly from the great crowd, to share in the meetings of each of the Governing Body Committees, that is, the Personnel, Publishing, Service, Teaching and Writing Committees" (15 April 1992, p. 31)


Agape

SlaveForJah

[TheMdC]

Perhaps, but those are "helpers" and not GB members themselves.

If I could ask the GB a question about that statement, it would be this:

Since your new "helpers" are "mainly from the great crowd" (I'd ignore the fact that the great crowd doesn't exist until after the great tribulation for now), how many of these helpers are not from the great crowd? How many are anointed? And if they're both anointed and qualified to participate in GB duties, why are they not GB members?

I suspect the new "helpers" are not "mainly from the great crowd" but rather that they ALL are from the great crowd.

[Utuna]

Perhaps, but those are "helpers" and not GB members themselves.

If I could ask the GB a question about that statement, it would be this:

Since your new "helpers" are "mainly from the great crowd" (I'd ignore the fact that the great crowd doesn't exist until after the great tribulation for now), how many of these helpers are not from the great crowd? How many are anointed? And if they're both anointed and qualified to participate in GB duties, why are they not GB members?

I suspect the new "helpers" are not "mainly from the great crowd" but rather that they ALL are from the great crowd.

Dear TheMdC,

You're absolutely right! The GB has profaned God's temple by allowing members of the GC to enter into the spiritual courtyard reserved to anointed ones only, and many of the latter ones think that it is a good thing! I'm sickened!

Please read Ez22:26:

"Her priests themselves have done violence to my law, and they keep profaning my holy places. Between the holy thing and the common they have made no distinction, and between the unclean thing and the clean they have made nothing known, and from my sabbaths they have hidden their eyes, and I am profaned in the midst of them."

and Ez44:6-9

"And you must say to Rebelliousness, to the house of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “That is enough of YOU because of all YOUR detestable things, O house of Israel, when YOU bring in the foreigners uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, in order to come to be in my sanctuary so as to profane it, even my house; when YOU present my bread, fat and blood, while they keep breaking my covenant on account of all YOUR detestable things. Neither have YOU taken care of the obligation of my holy things, nor would YOU post [others] as caretakers of my obligation in my sanctuary for yourselves.”’

“‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, may come into my sanctuary, that is, any foreigner who is in the midst of the sons of Israel.”’

God's temple, the anointed ones and the duties and talents they were given are the most holy things on earth ever. The GB allocates "to foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh" the duties that should be reserved to anointed ones only!

Where are the anointed shepherds? Where are the anointed teachers? Where are the anointed judges? (1Cor6:1-3, Prov21:1)

Now, you know why there are so many problems within the org!

---------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[TheMdC]

Wow, I didn't really see it in that light. It's worse than I thought. :(

Here's a question that may belong in another thread. . . nevermind, I'll start a new thread. ;)

[uglyandthin]

Dear TheMdC,

You're absolutely right! The GB has profaned God's temple by allowing members of the GC to enter into the spiritual courtyard reserved to anointed ones only, and many of the latter ones think that it is a good thing! I'm sickened!

Please read Ez22:26:

"Her priests themselves have done violence to my law, and they keep profaning my holy places. Between the holy thing and the common they have made no distinction, and between the unclean thing and the clean they have made nothing known, and from my sabbaths they have hidden their eyes, and I am profaned in the midst of them."

and Ez44:6-9

"And you must say to Rebelliousness, to the house of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “That is enough of YOU because of all YOUR detestable things, O house of Israel, when YOU bring in the foreigners uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, in order to come to be in my sanctuary so as to profane it, even my house; when YOU present my bread, fat and blood, while they keep breaking my covenant on account of all YOUR detestable things. Neither have YOU taken care of the obligation of my holy things, nor would YOU post [others] as caretakers of my obligation in my sanctuary for yourselves.”’

“‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh, may come into my sanctuary, that is, any foreigner who is in the midst of the sons of Israel.”’

God's temple, the anointed ones and the duties and talents they were given are the most holy things on earth ever. The GB allocates "to foreigners, uncircumcised in heart and uncircumcised in flesh" the duties that should be reserved to anointed ones only!

Where are the anointed shepherds? Where are the anointed teachers? Where are the anointed judges? (1Cor6:1-3, Prov21:1)


---------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

Hi Utuna:

Amen, brother, Amen

uglyandthin

[Nash]

Hi SwordofJah,

Did you even bother to listen to the Youtube information that I provided?

Nash

[shikinah]

Really! how do you know that as a fact Shikinah?:mellow:

Truthseeker

I read it somewhere, is this wrong information:(

[TheMdC]

I read it somewhere, is this wrong information:(

I wouldn't say "wrong" so much as a confusing manner of putting it. Your sentence looks as if you're saying that some of the nine GB members are not of the anointed. I don't think that's what you meant but if it is, then it IS wrong information. I think what you meant is that not all anointed share in GB duties (true) and that some other sheep DO assist the GB directly in their duties (also true).

[shikinah]

I wouldn't say "wrong" so much as a confusing manner of putting it. Your sentence looks as if you're saying that some of the nine GB members are not of the anointed. I don't think that's what you meant but if it is, then it IS wrong information. I think what you meant is that not all anointed share in GB duties (true) and that some other sheep DO assist the GB directly in their duties (also true).

Im definately wrong then, because that is what i was implying, as i read it somewhere. That not all the governing body were of the anointed. Or perhaps i miss read it, thats why i was in shock. Thank you for pointing out the error:(

[TheMdC]

And to further clarify, I should say "claim to be" anointed, as they are so quick to label the anointed b/s outside their circle.

Can you recall where you might have read that there are non-anointed GB members? There was something in recent years (KM? Letter? IDK.) that explained how several "helpers" had been assigned to help the GB in their duties and that this would increase as the GB got older and fewer, but it didn't say that they would be actual members of the G9.

[shikinah]

And to further clarify, I should say "claim to be" anointed, as they are so quick to label the anointed b/s outside their circle.

Can you recall where you might have read that there are non-anointed GB members? There was something in recent years (KM? Letter? IDK.) that explained how several "helpers" had been assigned to help the GB in their duties and that this would increase as the GB got older and fewer, but it didn't say that they would be actual members of the G9.

Well im sure i read it on here, but with all the initials GB, MGB etc i may have mis-read its meaning, or others would have pointed it out too. Someone may remember:mellow:

[Molly]

Do you know what arimatthewdavies,
I'm embarrassed to even admit, that is only this week that i realised that the governing body isnt made up of the anointed, and that they are not involved in all aspects of organisational preparation:blush:
I bet if you asked the majority of witnesses they would think the same also. Oh well you live and learn:mellow:

Hi Shikinah-

Some have been questioning whether all the GB are anointed. I certainly don't believe that they all are, regardless of what they may say. As for who is and who isn't, it's the old how can one tell story.

You said that you thought that you heard that they weren't all anointed on this forum. I agree with that. It is my understanding from what I have read here that Ray Franz who was a GB member until dismissed claimed in one of his books (I haven't read them, so I don't know) that he was not anointed. Maybe my memory is faulty, but that is what I remember. Maybe someone who has read his books would be more familiar with that.

Molly

[Nightflyer]

It is my understanding from what I have read here that Ray Franz who was a GB member until dismissed claimed in one of his books (I haven't read them, so I don't know) that he was not anointed.
Molly

No Ray Franz never said that. I think he wrote that he started to partake in 1946 and continued to do so until 1981 when he was disfellowshiped.

Actually if I remember correctly his opinion is that every christian is anointed and have a heavenly hope - which of course is not true. This opinion of his was one of the reasons he got kicked out of the GB. But thats another story.

[FutureMan]

Hi Utuna:

Amen, brother, Amen

uglyandthin


Oh please, give me a break.

We are all one sheep, whether we have a heavenly hope or an earthly hope.
We are all to be circumcised of the heart.

If that is not the case then I'm wasting my time as a Christian and wasting my time on this forum that is for sure.

This segregation has gone on long enough, please my Lord Jesus, as head of the congregation, come and rectify this situation soon, because I have had enough of all this foolishness. :mad:

[arimatthewdavies]

well babalon the great has mother mary who intercededs between the catholic church and jesus,we have the g.b. who intercedes between jehovahs wittnesses and jesus. now ive got qustions..
im i crazy or a fool here the society plainly teaches that mary or anyone called upon to mediate between me and jesus is idol worship......

so why am i to submit to their mediation under pain of disfellowshiping when they themselfs said that would be idol worship...
help! now im super confused..

[FutureMan]

well babalon the great has mother mary who intercededs between the catholic church and jesus,we have the g.b. who intercedes between jehovahs wittnesses and jesus. now ive got qustions..
im i crazy or a fool here the society plainly teaches that mary or anyone called upon to mediate between me and jesus is idol worship......

so why am i to submit to their mediation under pain of disfellowshiping when they themselfs said that would be idol worship...
help! now im super confused..

I'm afraid my dear brother, the only confusion is among those who refuse to accept the truth of God's word.

It is very clear our only mediator today is Jesus Christ, and no one else.

(1 Timothy 2:1-6) 2 I therefore exhort, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, offerings of thanks, be made concerning all sorts of men, 2 concerning kings and all those who are in high station; in order that we may go on leading a calm and quiet life with full godly devotion and seriousness. 3 This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, 4 whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times. . .

We either believe the scriptures or we don't.

[TheMdC]

I don't believe in this scripture:

"28 For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from hugging your wife while praying and from fornication. If YOU carefully keep yourselves from these things, YOU will prosper. Good health to YOU!” Acts 15:28,29, GB-Version