1914?

[Jeshurun]

One of the scriptures that the Society uses to "prove" the 1914 doctrine is found at Ezekiel 21:25-27, where it says:

²⁵ "And as for you, O deadly wounded, wicked chieftain of Israel, whose day has come in the time of the error of [the] end, </span></span></span>²⁶ this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. This will not be the same. Put on high even what is low, and bring low even the high one. ²⁷ A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no [one’s] until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give [it] to him.’

Does it seem to anyone else that this vital piece of the 1914 dogma is ironically speaking of the WT&#39;s future demise?

Haven&#39;t the GB claimed "legal right" by declaring that they have already been appointed over all the master&#39;s belongings? Have they not already crowned themselves?

If so, any thoughts on how Jehovah will "put on high even what is low"? I don&#39;t have many questions about "bring low even the high one".

Agape
Lou





</span>

[Juan]

If so, any thoughts on how Jehovah will "put on high even what is low"? I don&#39;t have many questions about "bring low even the high one".
[/b]

A suprising number of annointed brothers have been df-ed for "apostasy" by the WT for speaking against the errors of the WT org. Maybe they are the ones who will be "put on high" by Jehovah.

[Candace]

I agree with Juan. It could be a reference to the 11th hour workers (late bloomers as Robert calls them) being made high, while the exalted GB are brought low.

Thanks for bringing our attention to this scripture Lou.

[Kenneth]

Ever since 1919 the Watchtower hierarchy have been elevated and have achieved godlike status among the rank and file. Brothers from the past such as Rutherford, Knorr and Franz as well as other members of the governing body have become indelibly written into the fabric of the Watchtower history as men of prominence. I&#39;m not going to stand on judgment of theses individuals but we have to admit that they had made some serious errors in doctoring and 1914 is at the top of the list. However, brothers are in awe of this piece of computation and believe it to be unassailable. When the wall falls sadly those who placed their trust in a date will fall with it.
Its Paul&#39;s words that come to mind as regards those who share such prominence at 1^st Corinthians 2:8-13

"YOU men already have YOUR fill, do YOU? YOU are rich already, are YOU? YOU have begun ruling as kings without us, have YOU? And I wish indeed that YOU had begun ruling as kings, that we also might rule with YOU as kings. 9 For it seems to me that God has put us the apostles last on exhibition as men appointed to death, because we have become a theatrical spectacle to the world, and to angels, and to men. 10 We are fools because of Christ, but YOU are discreet in Christ; we are weak, but YOU are strong; YOU are in good repute, but we are in dishonor. 11 Down to this very hour we continue to hunger and also to thirst and to be scantily clothed and to be knocked about and to be homeless 12 and to toil, working with our own hands. When being reviled, we bless; when being persecuted, we bear up; 13 when being defamed, we entreat; we have become as the refuse of the world, the offscouring of all things, until now."

"&#39;For the reason that YOU men have spoken untruth and YOU have visioned a lie, therefore here I am against YOU "Ezekiel 13

"Haven&#39;t the GB claimed "legal right" by declaring that they have already been appointed over all the master&#39;s belongings? Have they not already crowned themselves? "

On whose authority have they done this? Probably Rutherford yet he had so much wrong especially during the thirties with Beth-Sarim and the &#39;house of Princes.&#39; One of the most interesting aspects of the society is just how quite they are about the Watchtowers history, the reason is it&#39;s just too uncomfortable to discus. Of course if the truth be known then all respect and adulation they have would vanish. If the religious leaders of Jesus day had recognize him they would have had to given up their position and prominence pick up their touched stake and follow the Christ. Somehow I came see the governing body giving up what they have for the truth. Surely a very sad state of affairs.

[Jeshurun]

Juan and Candace, you are thinking what I was thinking about the 11th hour workers. It&#39;s getting scary that I can actually read the scriptures for myself and see what they mean clearly, and I&#39;m thankful to be able to have my feelings confirmed by all of you who share so much insight.

Kenneth, thanks for all that information. Ironically the Proclaimers book has enough info on the history of the Watchtower to collapse the whole structure in the mind of the discerning reader. The fact that the GB has 12 members and are claiming to be apostles is quite alarming, and it&#39;s amazing how they have done this by putting a few verses together with a little mathematics that have no solid foundation in scripture. It becomes more mind-boggling with each passing year how so many can believe that Christ is present and presiding over all this mess for the last 93 years while doing nothing about it.

Agape
Lou

[Kenneth]

Reading the Bible has never been easier. All you have to do is take Christendom out of the equation, get rid of the 1914 doctrine, apply the text to Spiritual Israel, attend the meetings and watch the whole thing unfold before you eyes.

[barry]

Reading the Bible has never been easier. All you have to do is take Christendom out of the equation, get rid of the 1914 doctrine, apply the text to Spiritual Israel, attend the meetings and watch the whole thing unfold before you eyes.[/b]

Indeed, bible reading is a lot easier now. My wife had a lot of difficulties to understand the explanation of prophecy according to the WT, now she can just start reading it and get a lot more out of it.

[Jeshurun]

The Bible is a sealed book when it&#39;s main earthly entity is hiding behind a wall.

I agree that we are truly blessed to have this insight, though there are still many prophecies that can only apply to Christendom.

[stayawake]

IMHO
Back to the 11th hour workers, these are the only ones searching the scriptures, and feeding the flock, the proper food at the proper time.
When the Great crowd comes out of the GT, it will be thr 11th hour workers that will be taken the lead, with our support in preaching the GOOD NEWS of the KINGDOM of GOD. Matt 24 :24 :14
It REALLY will be GOOD NEWS cause the Kingdom will really Have FINALLY been established in the heavens.
Thats the reason for the 11 th hour workers being slaghtered. The NWO will see them as rebels, obeying God as Ruler rather then man.( NWO) So to stop this movement they (NGO) hunt down to get rid of the ones taking the lead in the preaching of Matt24 :14.

Thats where we come in , as Jesus put it, I was hungry you fed me ,Iwas naked you clothed me, I was in prison you visited me,etc
When Lord we will say, in responce Jesus said if you did it to the least of these my brothers ,you did it to me.


But when they are turned on it will be like touching Jehovahs eyeball,
As these workers are His Sons Thats when He steps in.
I only speak for myself
love stayawake

[Elihu]

Reading the Bible has never been easier. All you have to do is take Christendom out of the equation, get rid of the 1914 doctrine, apply the text to Spiritual Israel, attend the meetings and watch the whole thing unfold before you eyes.[/b]

Indeed, bible reading is a lot easier now. My wife had a lot of difficulties to understand the explanation of prophecy according to the WT, now she can just start reading it and get a lot more out of it.
[/b]

yes the blinkers come off, and just think for a moment about the brothers and sister who have been stumbled by the 1914 doctrine and the "phony presence"
for example the "1975 fiasco" and then labelled apostates by the WT [what a terrible thing to do to people]
When the reality is known and the real Gospel is preached at the proper time what a great crowd will be gathered.

the truth will shine as the sun and the crop will grow

isaiah 56 tells of a gathering and is worth studying.


elihu

[stayawake]

Quote> When the reality is known and the real Gospel is preached at the proper time what a great crowd will be gathered. <Quote


Dear Elihu, with tears in my eyes out of shear joy, I just had to add a thought, all of the above posts show we are seeing the clear picture.
Rightly said the blinders are being removed.
I hope Jah doesn&#39;t think I am being presumtious, but I pray for the annointed who had to sit back and not have a say in much,
I hope and pray they see Jahs hand at work and have the backbone that Watchman, and others took and shout the truth to the flock in captivity, This is where strong faith must come in.

Satan was always a copy cat when it came to his Father, but in a jealous ,selfish way.
What way is that one may ask ?

well just look at what hes done, running way ahead all the time screaming to his Father, "What ever you can do I can do better "( not written but his actions show such) other wise Jah wouldnt tell us that Satan was taunting him. Pro 27:11)

Take a good look those of us that can see,
The man of lawlessness ran ahead almost 100 years with prophecy. Once he had the Kingdom set up with Christ presence, he had to keep going .He had no choice.

You know Paul warned us this would happen, and for us not to believe it, as this teaching of Christ presense did NOT come from them ( the WHEAT )

Paul wrote: 2Thess 2:1-3
" However,brothers ,respecting the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, I request not to be quickly shaken from your reason, nor be excited either through a inspired expression, or through a verbal message, or through a letter as though from us (wheat ) to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.
Let no one seduce you in any manner,because it will not come unless the apostacy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of distruction."
If you prayfully ponder over these verses several times it will hit you.


sorry
I got carried away for a moment, as what I started out to write was Its always numbers with the WT.
John speaks of a GREAT CROWD that NO MAN was able to number.
Yet the WT has that Great Crowd numbered , failing to realize
that Christ ransome sacrifice was Universal

love stayawake

[Cricket]

I agree with Juan. It could be a reference to the 11th hour workers (late bloomers as Robert calls them) being made high, while the exalted GB are brought low.

Thanks for bringing our attention to this scripture Lou.[/b]


Brings to mind the following scripture:
Matthew 19:30 - But many that are first will be last and the last first.

[scriptures]

I is only now that I am questioning the validity of 1914,
I will study your postings very well.

[Eliyahowah]

I is only now that I am questioning the validity of 1914,
I will study your postings very well.[/b]


Jerusalem fell in 607 BC all pagan chronology proves that the
50-year desolation is false for Babylons rule. It was 70 years.
And others before thruout 2000 years have held strong to that 70 years
as being so. How can you not believe Daniels calculating 70 years
if youre going to look at Daniel for the rest of Armageddon.
This is a shock and shame you reject 1914 as being 2520 years
from 607 BC as destruction.
Furthermore, the 360-day calendar that measured 1656 years
to the Flood of 2370 BC finishes 6000 years 61 years before
1975. Yes in 1914. And here i see lies claiming the IBSA existed in
1913. It did not. The legal license for preaching in global Britain is 1914 June 1.
I even see lies on other websites saying that they reached more than 144,000
in membership attendence in 1934 and so they had to create a great crowd.
This is not true. JWs did not reach 144,000 members nor attendance in 1934.
And even if they had, which they didnt, the only change was those
numbering above 144,000 were of the great crowd, a crowd they already knew
existed but they thought was going to heaven with the 144,000.

Dont belong to a religion, if you strip it down beyond what you were taught
in the first days of meeting it. There is no fault at all in believing this
presence for 61 years before the year 6000. Or are you looking to create your
own religion! You say the WatchTower wont see truth, but many are
apostate because they too wont see truth.
And in the agreement to join this group you make all claims of
accepting the anointed. You do not if you do not accept 1914
because all who partake to join in heaven do know 1914 is a fact.
Genesis is loaded with all screwed up things Abram thought, and
Isaac thought, and Jacob thought, and Judah thought.
Yet they brought the nation, the kingdom, and the Christ.
Oh you are dumb or stupid are you? You dont see Abram confused that
he takes Hagar gets Ishmael and ends up square one with Isaac.
Or you dont see blind Isaac blessing giving Esau&#39;s blessing to Jacob?
Or Jacob taking Labans sheep, or Judah screwing Tamar as a prostitute?
Get your act together people. You are getting pioused like the religious.
Truth is truth. You have no proof against 1914 and youre seeking proof
against it... why, why are you, how is it you are calling Jesus a phony
presence. It is one thing to say this is abuse, this is no spiritual paradise,
but another to now say, so see this proves there is no Christ here yet
among these people. I may retract my membership.
To join you all say you must accept the true doctrines of Jehovah
and the WatchTower, but you dont. Yes i see many fair discussions.
But this thread is totally attack on doctrine which your sign up says
you will not permit the doctrine attack.
Confused here and may retract my membership.

[Eliyahowah]

Quote> When the reality is known and the real Gospel is preached at the proper time what a great crowd will be gathered. <Quote

The man of lawlessness ran ahead almost 100 years with prophecy. Once he had the Kingdom set up with Christ presence, he had to keep going. He had no choice.
You know Paul warned us this would happen, and for us not to believe it, as this teaching of Christ presense did NOT come from them ( the WHEAT )

I got carried away for a moment, as what I started out to write was Its always numbers with the WT.
John speaks of a GREAT CROWD that NO MAN was able to number.
Yet the WT has that Great Crowd numbered , failing to realize
that Christ ransom sacrifice was Universal[/b]

First you are forgetting that this is not the time to apply a resurrection and save the life of everyone, most who are dead over 6000 years. It is a time to sort out who will start out the new world. Next, you say Christ&#39;s presence is the makings of the Man Of Lawlessness, if this is your thought it accuses the anointed of being that Lawless man. The Lawless man is the ruling part of the WatchTower who is like Judas turning them in when Armageddon comes. There is no loss in their death because they really do get to go to heaven when no one else has or will. Dont be Judas or his crowd. When the tribulation comes on the WatchTower you will have the false impression your own ark has started, but iot will be the day the deluge comes.

Next, you say it is numbered. You forget the whole Bible has numbers of those in a nation or saved or passing thru. And then no matter who says the great crowd is on the skirt of 144,000 going thru Armageddon. In reality they are saved on that skirt the way they were saved on the skirt of Jesus actually being killed and dying. If then the death of the holy ones saves the great crowd, who is it that goes thru on the skirt. Hyksos did leave with Israelites out of Egypt, and what of family leaving Jericho with Rahab the whore. Are we to compare our holy bride of Jesus to the 7 day rest of Rahab the whore.
Has the anointed been a whore who has cleaned herself up the last 7 days and has family, a great crowd saved with her. It would seem more likely we the great crowd are the whore, and it is unnumbered because it is family of the great crowd who gets saved by being with their JWs when it happens. Do not for one moment think that you will be saved if not baptized. BUT do know that nor is it definate death. Do not judge the last minute decisions of Armageddon by JWs as another thing to mock or you may be on the wrong side of that 50-50 lottery ticket. Zephaniah 2:2,3 says seek and you will PROBABLY be concealed from Jehovahs anger. Yes many will be Lots wife now dead and many will be Lots incestual daughters who survive so stupid they think all the men in the world has died in their Armageddon.
Keep your senses. There do exist people in this chat who are undermining the basics so that you are just another evangelical hope sitting on side lines so sure youre saved.

[Eliyahowah]

I agree with Juan. It could be a reference to the 11th hour workers (late bloomers as Robert calls them) being made high, while the exalted GB are brought low.[/b]


No not at all. Jesus said jealousy they get the same wage.
not one high one low.
Dont put Judas on high the last hour as Jesus gets hit low and
killed.

[watchman]

Eli Yhwh

Might I suggest that you take your crazed messiah routine and go audition over at the Paradise Cafe. They might feature you as the opening act. But we ain&#39;t buying it here. Sorry Charlie.

[Eliyahowah]

Ever since 1919 the Watchtower hierarchy have been elevated and have achieved godlike status among the rank and file. Brothers from the past such as Rutherford, Knorr and Franz as well as other members of the governing body have become indelibly written into the fabric of the Watchtower history as men of prominence. I&#39;m not going to stand on judgment of theses individuals but we have to admit that they had made some serious errors in doctoring and 1914 is at the top of the list.[/b]

Ressurrrection in 1926 may be a serious error. But it fulfilled prophecy
because Jesus needed to show the Temple building totally stopped that year
during Darius. If a parallel is given as a sign to us, he is going to repeat
both the good and bad of those ancient years.
That means 1926 is on a list above 1914.
How can a JW come into the WatchTower who is old enough to say
he was here when 1919 put power into someone else and that changed everything.
The person to say this cant possibly be old enough to experience this 1919
which means he came into as a JW excepting it and now says it was a
hierarchy. This means he is not a JW nor ever was one.
You can come into the JWs during the past 60 years and not know
the GB already exists. To say its pulled wool since 1919 is to reveal
youre not one of us. You would be fraud with intent to undermine
existing JWs. Thats a plot. And killing JWs will be next.

[Eliyahowah]

Eli Yhwh
Might I suggest that you take your crazed messiah routine and go audition over at the Paradise Cafe. They might feature you as the opening act. But we ain&#39;t buying it here. Sorry Charlie.[/b]

WE? I am confused. You are speaking for the members here.
Ought they not to be informed you are saying this for them.

[watchman]

WE? I am confused. You are speaking for the members here.
Ought they not to be informed you are saying this for them.[/b]

I would guess that you ought to be used to being "confused." As for informing the members of this board about my comment I am sure they can read. Specifically, though, if you must know, the "we" is my webmaster and I. We decide who posts on this board and who doesn&#39;t and we ain&#39;t buying the crazy you&#39;re selling.

[stayawake]

Eliyahowah
You are so funny.
Surely you realize the responsibilities of a Watchman, is to be a Watchman.
I wish you well
stayawake