WT study for September 13, 2009

[Utuna]

Dear all,

This afternoon, I have, at last, the time to develop two points I'd like to share with you. I don't know why James didn't post a copy of the last week's WT article as he usually did so far. As I don't always have an English version of the WT at hand, I'll have to translate the paragraphs I want to comment.

§8: "Jesus also demonstrated a perfect submission to the authority, leaving a pattern to follow for wives. Isn't the contrast striking between Jesus' behaviour and Eve's? Effectively, the first woman, is not a good example for wives. In the garden of Eden, Jehovah communicated his directives to the couple through the one He had established as a head of the family. But did Eve respect that arrangement? She didn't heed the directives she had received earlier through Adam. It's true that Eve was deceived; however, when she heard a voice pretending to reveal her what "God knows", she should have asked her husband before taking any decision. Instead of that, she had the presumptuousness to tell her husband what to do."

That paragraph has two levels of reading. Obviously, the first level is the litteral one, just as the GB explained it.

The second level is a spiritual one. Please read 2 Cor11:1-3:

"I wish YOU would put up with me in some little unreasonableness. But, in fact, YOU are putting up with me! For I am jealous over YOU with a godly jealousy, for I personally promised YOU in marriage to one husband that I might present YOU as a chaste virgin to the Christ. But I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent seduced Eve by its cunning, YOUR minds might be corrupted away from the sincerity and the chastity that are due the Christ."

In that verse, the apostle Paul compares Jesus' bride with Eve. Just as Adam's wife was deceived and saw her mind and heart corrupted away, Paul is afraid to see the bride of the last Adam, Jesus, follow the same pattern, seeing her mind "being corrupted away from the sincerity and the chastity that are due the Christ".

As we all already know, Jesus' bride is composed of all the faithful anointed ones who will become one flesh with him after the wedding of the Lamb.

What application could we make from the paragraph 8 quoted above?

Even if Jesus' bride is a collective entity, Paul says that each one of "her" are a part of Jesus' body and that Jesus cares for them. Jesus is the head of the congregation and he teaches them directly through God's arrangements to that end, that is His Word and His Holy Spirit. The anointed members of the "spiritual Eve" should be careful not to listen to the voice of Satan's seed, the bad slave, the "offspring of vipers" (Mat3:7) cunningly "pretending to reveal her what "God knows", as the WT article phrased it.

Jesus' bride should be cautious (John10:5) and should carefully check what is told her using what her bridegroom (and God, her Father) has lovingly prepared for her own spiritual safety, that is the Bible. Contrary to what Eve did, she must ask her husband what is right from what is true, and not just blindly trust strangers, self-proclaimed teachers.

The second point I'd like to comment is this one contained in the paragraph 15:

§15: "How can we do it? One way to achieve that goal is offering your children many opportunities to associate with full-time pioneers. Just think how much teenagers can be encouraged if they meet pioneers or the circuit overseer and his wife! If missionaries are visiting your congregation, or members of Bethel, or volonteers who participate to building programs abroad, no doubt that they will tell enthousiastically how they get many blessings from their service. For sure, they will have many interesting anecdotes to tell. The example of their commitment can incite your children to take wise decisions, to have good objectives and to choose a kind of education that will enable them to provide for their needs while being full-time pioneers."

Once again, the examples chosen demonstrate the subjectivity and the goals aimed at by the GB. They don't want lovers, they want preachers. All the examples chosen have more or less a link with the full-time ministry. Once again, according to the GB, the unique worthwhile objectives are not to love our b/s and the world the best and the most we can (which, of course, includes the preaching work), but they are to be preacher-bees... At first, the theme of the WT article was general but the application is nearly always directed towards the preaching work alone.

Does it mean that the millions of brothers and sisters who are not pioneers are not worth our friendship or are not spiritually mature? How many aged and lonely b/s would be glad to see youngsters by their side? Wouldn't they have countless interesting anecdotes to tell our children? Why aren't they listed as persons worthy of honor and respect? Aren't they also able to incite teenagers to be pioneers?

Each time he finished a letter, the apostle Paul listed numerous brothers and sisters who were worthy to receive congratulations for all the hard work they were accomplishing in accordance with God's will. Were they less worthy of gratefulness despite the fact that most of them were not pioneers? Of course, not!

When will the GB stop considering the pioneers or the elders as an elite class worthy of the hall of fame? whereas the other b/s are never considered nor listed as spiritual and worthy to be imitated. Isn't a single sister having children, doing her utmost to educate them and to attend faithfully the meetings not worthy of congratulations too or as worthy to be cited as an example as young couples of pioneers who chose their situation? Did the single sister choose what happen(-ned) to her? NO, most of the time but she's there at the meetings and she tries her best to listen while telling quietly her children to behave. I could also speak about any old brother or sister, the back bent because of old age, not making many comments but always present with a smile despite the pains of old age...

I have them all in my congregation and I love them very much. Their faith and all the efforts they make are a GREAT example for me (just like the pioneers are examples too regarding the preaching work) and for sure, they all deserve my love and my most sincere congratulations because they teach me silently and unbeknownst to them what endurance and faithfulness is.

---------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[SWORDOFJAH]

Hello Utuna. Good morning.

You stated

When will the GB stop considering the pioneers or the elders as an elite class worthy of the hall of fame?

In all my years as a witness I never saw anything related from the GB that elders or pioneers should be an elite class or something similar. To the contrary they are point out to be example to the rest of the flock.

[Utuna]

Hello Utuna. Good morning.

You stated

When will the GB stop considering the pioneers or the elders as an elite class worthy of the hall of fame?

In all my years as a witness I never saw anything related from the GB that elders or pioneers should be an elite class or something similar. To the contrary they are point out to be example to the rest of the flock.
Dear SOJ,

I was born in the truth. I'm not a newbie, I know what I'm talking about. I know what I read in the WT litterature and heard from all kinds of platforms imaginable.

Yes, they are pointed out to be examples to the rest of the flock... and them alone! For example, last spring, during the circuit convention, one orator said that all the b/s should be eager to imitate the spiritual members of the congregation, that is, the elders. I was very upset because I know countless of b/s who are spiritual, but not elders!

Each time someone says that he is a pioneer, the commentaries from some people are "Good or Great" and they miss others out because they are just publishers, just small fry! Other comments from the platforms are as such: "If you want to please God more, be a pioneer!" and they interview a couple of pioneers along with 10 tons of congratulations and a big smile from one ear to the other, etc. The other members of the congregation? They're just considered as "seat warmers". Some of my friends (as well as other b/s like single sisters with children) in my congregation are always upset and saddened by the exaggerated emphasis always placed on the same category of b/s.

My thoughts are that there are much more b/s who are deserving to be quoted as examples than just two categories frequently quoted as such.

Many elders deserve to be quoted as examples, and many don't!
Many pioneers deserve to be quoted as examples, and many don't!
Many b/s deserve to be quoted as examples, and many don't!

It's more than simplistic to say that two categories only are to be quoted as examples.

The way each one of us demonstrate love with our b/s at first and also in the preaching work should be the main criteria to be quoted as an example, and not the level of responsabilities in the congregation, nor the amount of hours spent in the preaching work.

Love is the criteria and... many praised elders or pioneers would fall far short if love towards all was the main criteria required.

Personally, I want to please God more... by loving everyone more ! and my examples are all the individuals (publishers, elders, pioneers, etc.) who do it better than I do now.

---------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[SWORDOFJAH]

Thanks Utuna. But still your inquire When will the GB stop considering the pioneers or the elders as an elite class worthy of the hall of fame? is incorrect. The GB never consider or counsel any witness to see them as an elite class. As you stated they are pointed out to be examples to the rest of the flock...

Also in every convention wee see others that are interview that are examples of faith and yet they are not elders or pioneers. Also good examples are found in the publications of brothers and sisters that are examples and yet they are not elders or pioneers.

Good examples are to be imitate no matter in what capacity we serve in the congregations.

[Utuna]

Thanks Utuna. But still your inquire When will the GB stop considering the pioneers or the elders as an elite class worthy of the hall of fame? is incorrect. The GB never consider or counsel any witness to see them as an elite class. As you stated they are pointed out to be examples to the rest of the flock...

Also in every convention wee see others that are interview that are examples of faith and yet they are not elders or pioneers. Also good examples are found in the publications of brothers and sisters that are examples and yet they are not elders or pioneers.

Good examples are to be imitate no matter in what capacity we serve in the congregations.
Dear SOJ,

My sentence wasn't an inquiry but a rethorical question.

Contrary to how the Pharisees considered God's Word, I believe that it is more a way of life than just a list of vapid commandments. You seem particularly attached to what is written, but what's written is secondary to me, the way the b/s interpret what's written and apply it in their life and towards others is what's really important to me because it determines the real value of what's written. My interest is in the way others live their faith and their love for others, as God and His son told us to do. You can bury your head in the sand or hide your faith, yourself and reality behind what's really written according to you, but no one can impede the cries of God's people going up to heaven. Be sure that He hears and sees what's going on.

Just as it is demonstrated in the WT article I commented, the only ones quoted as examples are more or less linked with full-time service. If you have a look at the meanings of the word "elite" in your dictionary, you'll see that it fits perfectly the use I'm doing here of that word. Most of the interviews during conventions are of elders, young or older ones being pioneers or desiring to be such as soon as possible.

Whether you're living in wonderland or are particularly insensitive to what happens in congregations around you, I don't know; but your constant denial of the reality of hundreds of thousands of JWs is to me very sickening. For people suffering from psychological wounds, the first step taken by doctors in order to guide the patient on the path to recovery is to recognize that the sufferings are real. Hundreds of thousands of b/s can't all be daydreaming or be spiritual hypochondriacs. The problems are real and can't be overlooked any longer by the GB, yourself included, unless you don't care about Jesus' sheep, which I hope not. I'm not talking about books and quotations, I'm talking about real life, about tears and sufferings. Why? Because I also shed tears because of the way your innocent sentences were interpretated and applied in my life and in the life of my so beloved ones by bullies elders.

At times, I was glad to see some of your posts because they were always a positive outlook compared with many somewhat negative other posts. Now, you're going too far.

I've seen how you reason (wilfully or not) on another thread and that's not the way I conceive how upbuilding discussions have chances to go any further.

If you're happy with your understanding of what's written, please keep being so. I wish you would spent your time and energy helping others to be spiritually cured instead of spending them defending the GB and its writings.

I won't present any arguments more to you. I said what I had to say in my previous posts and even if you quote one sentence of mine or two in order to prove me incorrect, I'll only accept arguments thoroughly developed written with your own heart and based on daily life, no book quotations nor endless repetitions of the sentence: "the GB never said nor wrote..." It is nothing but irrelevant.

I love you as a brother and have respect for you, that's why I tell you what I really think!

http://softeuropean.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/autruche.jpg


---------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[SWORDOFJAH]

By the way that bird never do that. Is a incorrect conception. What a coincidence!!!!

[Utuna]

By the way that bird never do that. Is a incorrect conception. What a coincidence!!!!

Dear SOJ,

That's a French expression: "La politique de l'autruche!" ;)

"Literally ostrich policy, it describes the act of sticking one's head in the sand, to ignore what is going on around you (or maybe more accurately, to pretend a problem will go away if you ignore it or hide from it)." - (quoted from there (http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=896341))

---------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[shikinah]

Thank you Utuna,
you explained that Watchtower very well, considering i havnt even seen it i could visualize what you were saying. Its a great example comparing Eve to the Bride of Christ. We can see why its so important that the bride should listen to her husbands voice and remain spiritually faithful. The other point about "hall of fame" I've seen it myself, but as the scripture quotes that the "law should be written on our hearts" feeling empathy doesn't always come easy for some, but the lowest will be the highest in Gods kingdom, only then will that scripture truly be understood.

Sisterly Love
Shikinah

[Jahsdisciple]

Dear SOJ,

I was born in the truth. I'm not a newbie, I know what I'm talking about. I know what I read in the WT litterature and heard from all kinds of platforms imaginable.

Yes, they are pointed out to be examples to the rest of the flock... and them alone! For example, last spring, during the circuit convention, one orator said that all the b/s should be eager to imitate the spiritual members of the congregation, that is, the elders. I was very upset because I know countless of b/s who are spiritual, but not elders!

Each time someone says that he is a pioneer, the commentaries from some people are "Good or Great" and they miss others out because they are just publishers, just small fry! Other comments from the platforms are as such: "If you want to please God more, be a pioneer!" and they interview a couple of pioneers along with 10 tons of congratulations and a big smile from one ear to the other, etc. The other members of the congregation? They're just considered as "seat warmers". Some of my friends (as well as other b/s like single sisters with children) in my congregation are always upset and saddened by the exaggerated emphasis always placed on the same category of b/s.

My thoughts are that there are much more b/s who are deserving to be quoted as examples than just two categories frequently quoted as such.

Many elders deserve to be quoted as examples, and many don't!
Many pioneers deserve to be quoted as examples, and many don't!
Many b/s deserve to be quoted as examples, and many don't!

It's more than simplistic to say that two categories only are to be quoted as examples.

The way each one of us demonstrate love with our b/s at first and also in the preaching work should be the main criteria to be quoted as an example, and not the level of responsabilities in the congregation, nor the amount of hours spent in the preaching work.

Love is the criteria and... many praised elders or pioneers would fall far short if love towards all was the main criteria required.

Personally, I want to please God more... by loving everyone more ! and my examples are all the individuals (publishers, elders, pioneers, etc.) who do it better than I do now.

---------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

Hi Brother Utuna,
I agree with you about the unintended elitism that exists. Ive been a JW for many decades since 10 YO,so i know its there...as well as having been a pioneer for 8 of those years. I know of pioneers who needed others to look up to them because they are insecure and pioneering is a way to get the adulation they need. Most arent like this,but many are. They have the best intentions...so thats what counts.

Why are they looked up to ? Its because of the obsession with "works proves your worth" mentality. The more you do to prove you have worth,the more you have worth by those works.

And thats the problem and why things that you mention,like looking after injured ones,are ignored.

Its more important to show others you have worth by "works of worth" than look after people who have worth in Jahs eyes...and thats the problem with the obsession with preaching. Enough preaching is being done to find the sheep and for people to know who Jah is,so "nows the time" to learn to look after those we already have.

If you ignore injured ones to preach,then you have missed the point of the IDEA behind the preaching.
Jahsdisciple

[billy2]

i agree Utuna and Jahsdiciple

Even this weeks wt on the Love of Jesus was along the same lines

not having copies of the study wts - i get the info when i attend the study meeting - when i saw the title for the study about the love of Jesus - i jumped for joy inside - as the study progressed i became very discouraged as the only love that was elevated was the preaching work - and even though there were some good points and scriptures brought out about the preaching work - the study left a big gaping hole about the love Jesus taught for one another - its like we are taught to do anything possible to convert people but once they are in - then they are ignored and not considered important

one point brought out was about a sister who writes letters to people in general who have lost loved ones - so as to preach to them - i find this very intrusive to do to strangers - whereas alot of love and support from b&s would be very beneficial when one has lost a loved one within the congregation - but in my case this was sadly lacking

its a very unbalanced world living in the wt society - i find attending meetings can be quite sickening - but i have decided to keep going at this time to practice loving my enemy and looking for those on the verge of breakdowns - so i can support and love them like Jesus taught us to

i dont care if the congregation considers me a flake - i would rather do my good deeds in secret and get the reward from Jehovah than boast and gloat about my achievements in the congregation and get a reward in the from of the praise of men

[FutureMan]

Hello Utuna. Good morning.

You stated

When will the GB stop considering the pioneers or the elders as an elite class worthy of the hall of fame?

In all my years as a witness I never saw anything related from the GB that elders or pioneers should be an elite class or something similar. To the contrary they are point out to be example to the rest of the flock.

How about the term"THE GLORIOUS ONES" :huh:

[FGM]

Hello Utuna. Good morning.

You stated

When will the GB stop considering the pioneers or the elders as an elite class worthy of the hall of fame?

In all my years as a witness I never saw anything related from the GB that elders or pioneers should be an elite class or something similar. To the contrary they are point out to be example to the rest of the flock.

Well it's another "but the society/GB/ FDS never said or wrote.... argument. It's probably true SOJ that you will not find such words directly written or spoken in the WT literature. If you just consider that fact alone you are right. BUT as has been pointed out in these forums it is what is implied that we are concerned about. As a person who has been associated with the witnesses since my birth I think that I have some credibility in knowing what the Brothers and Sisters feel about Pioneer / Elders/ Circuit overseers etc.
Sure they are referred to as examples but also they are placed on symbolic pedestals. It is not something new. Jesus had to counsel his Apostles for considering themselves an elitist class.
(Mark 9:38-39) .*.*.John said to him: “Teacher, we saw a certain man expelling demons by the use of your name and we tried to prevent him, because he was not accompanying us.” 39*But Jesus said: “Do not try to prevent him, .*.*.

So it is not surprising that we would find the same today.
I have seen the fawning over and the adoration of missionaries and members of the GB. I have seen first hand how these Brothers have been given special treatment at assemblies, in some cases being allowed access to special areas where they have been served, not assembly food that the rank and file had to eat, but delicious food served on bone china, eating it whilst looking out on the vast majority of Brothers and Sisters roughing it.
If a Brother or sister wanted to talk with such ones they were denied access by an attendant sitting at the entrance like some FBI agent.

Maybe you "never saw anything related from the GB that elders or pioneers should be an elite class or something similar." but that does not mean it hasn't happened and is still happening.

In the book of James it is written

(James 2:1-9) . . .My brothers, YOU are not holding the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, our glory, with acts of favoritism, are YOU? 2 For, if a man with gold rings on his fingers and in splendid clothing enters into a gathering of YOU, but a poor [man] in filthy clothing also enters, 3 yet YOU look with favor upon the one wearing the splendid clothing and say: "You take this seat here in a fine place," and YOU say to the poor one: "You keep standing," or: "Take that seat there under my footstool," 4 YOU have class distinctions among yourselves and YOU have become judges rendering wicked decisions, is that not so? 5 Listen, my beloved brothers. God chose the ones who are poor respecting the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he promised to those who love him, did he not? 6 YOU, though, have dishonored the poor [man]. The rich oppress YOU, and they drag YOU before law courts, do they not? 7 They blaspheme the fine name by which YOU were called, do they not? 8 If, now, YOU practice carrying out the kingly law according to the scripture: "You must love your neighbor as yourself," YOU are doing quite well. 9 But if YOU continue showing favoritism, YOU are working a sin, for YOU are reproved by the law as transgressors.


This attitude might not be "written" but it is certainly encouraged. Having said that Jehovah knows what is going on and he will judge accordingly. We all carry our own load so it is up to us to have the balanced view of those who are given "positions" in the organisation.

[shikinah]

i agree Utuna and Jahsdiciple

Even this weeks wt on the Love of Jesus was along the same lines

not having copies of the study wts - i get the info when i attend the study meeting - when i saw the title for the study about the love of Jesus - i jumped for joy inside - as the study progressed i became very discouraged as the only love that was elevated was the preaching work - and even though there were some good points and scriptures brought out about the preaching work - the study left a big gaping hole about the love Jesus taught for one another - its like we are taught to do anything possible to convert people but once they are in - then they are ignored and not considered important

one point brought out was about a sister who writes letters to people in general who have lost loved ones - so as to preach to them - i find this very intrusive to do to strangers - whereas alot of love and support from b&s would be very beneficial when one has lost a loved one within the congregation - but in my case this was sadly lacking

its a very unbalanced world living in the wt society - i find attending meetings can be quite sickening - but i have decided to keep going at this time to practice loving my enemy and looking for those on the verge of breakdowns - so i can support and love them like Jesus taught us to

i dont care if the congregation considers me a flake - i would rather do my good deeds in secret and get the reward from Jehovah than boast and gloat about my achievements in the congregation and get a reward in the from of the praise of men

Your words are so true billy2,
The major problem is that the love of Jesus is not taught enough, this is what the whole law is based on which is love. Whats the point of recruiting them through the front door, when just as much is leaving through the back door, because once found, and watered, they are treated just like an accomplishment, job done. Wheres is the nurturing of these once lost souls after they come into the truth who are rescued by the Watchtower? Of course there are many who do cope and are strong individuals, but there are many who have suffered badly while in the world, who expect to see the love of Jesus reflected within the organisation toward them even after baptism occurs. When i speak of Jesus in a passionate manner please do not think I'm promoting "trinitarianism" as i was quoted today as coming across this way, which i promise i could and would never promote such a teaching.

Love
Shikinah

[Eyes & Ears]

i agree Utuna and Jahsdiciple

Even this weeks wt on the Love of Jesus was along the same lines

not having copies of the study wts - i get the info when i attend the study meeting - when i saw the title for the study about the love of Jesus - i jumped for joy inside - as the study progressed i became very discouraged as the only love that was elevated was the preaching work - and even though there were some good points and scriptures brought out about the preaching work - the study left a big gaping hole about the love Jesus taught for one another - its like we are taught to do anything possible to convert people but once they are in - then they are ignored and not considered important

one point brought out was about a sister who writes letters to people in general who have lost loved ones - so as to preach to them - i find this very intrusive to do to strangers - whereas alot of love and support from b&s would be very beneficial when one has lost a loved one within the congregation - but in my case this was sadly lacking

its a very unbalanced world living in the wt society - i find attending meetings can be quite sickening - but i have decided to keep going at this time to practice loving my enemy and looking for those on the verge of breakdowns - so i can support and love them like Jesus taught us to

i dont care if the congregation considers me a flake - i would rather do my good deeds in secret and get the reward from Jehovah than boast and gloat about my achievements in the congregation and get a reward in the from of the praise of men


Good Morning Billy,


I agree with your expressions that I underlined Billy. It is quite challenging.

Keep HOLD N ON TIGHT TO JEHOVAH and don't let him go ever okey dokey.
We all here know Jehovah will straightened everything out soon. But in the meantime we still need to share and help and build each other up here as well as others we come in contact with who will listen.

We are aware of so much, but at times it still hurts and pains us as to what is happening inside Jehovah's household. But he will not let these things go on much longer.

Just a little while longer.

James 5:7,8 Exercise patience, therefore, brohters, until the presence of the Lord. Look! The farmer keeps waiting for the precious fruit of the earth, exercising patience over it until he gets the early rain and the late rain.

You too exercise patience, make your hearts firm because the presence of the Lord HAS DRAWN CLOSE.


IT SURE AIN'T EASY IS IT BILLY? (LITTLE SMILE)


Sisterly Love,

E & E

[SWORDOFJAH]

Well it's another "but the society/GB/ FDS never said or wrote.... argument. It's probably true SOJ that you will not find such words directly written or spoken in the WT literature. If you just consider that fact alone you are right.

Thanks that is the point. Now if someone try to say otherwise is merely an opinion. One then should be careful when trying to put opnions as facts. Let see again the star of the thread

When will the GB stop considering the pioneers or the elders as an elite class worthy of the hall of fame?

The problem with this statement is that is totally incorrect. The GB never consider them as elite or they never counsel to do such thing. Now if someone believe otherwise is an opinion. Example of how then a poster should ask about the issue: I believe,I think, ect.... Even perharos knowing that the GB never consider such actions.

[Utuna]

Well it's another "but the society/GB/ FDS never said or wrote.... argument. It's probably true SOJ that you will not find such words directly written or spoken in the WT literature. If you just consider that fact alone you are right.

Thanks that is the point. Now if someone try to say otherwise is merely an opinion. One then should be careful when trying to put opnions as facts. Let see again the star of the thread

When will the GB stop considering the pioneers or the elders as an elite class worthy of the hall of fame?

The problem with this statement is that is totally incorrect. The GB never consider them as elite or they never counsel to do such thing. Now if someone believe otherwise is an opinion. Example of how then a poster should ask about the issue: I believe,I think, ect.... Even perharos knowing that the GB never consider such actions.
Dear SOJ,

Please read:

Prov29:14:

"Leadership gains authority and respect
when the voiceless poor are treated fairly." - (The Message)

"Where a king is judging the lowly ones in trueness, his throne will be firmly established for all time." - (NWT)

and Prov31:8-9:

"Speak up for the people who have no voice,
for the rights of all the down-and-outers.
Speak out for justice!
Stand up for the poor and destitute!" - (The Message)

"Open your mouth for the speechless one, in the cause of all those passing away. Open your mouth, judge righteously and plead the cause of the afflicted one and the poor one." - (NWT)

---------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[SWORDOFJAH]

I agree friend. Elders specially must treat the flock with love,respect and fairly.

[Jahsdisciple]

but i have decided to keep going at this time to practice loving my enemy and looking for those on the verge of breakdowns - so i can support and love them like Jesus taught us to

i dont care if the congregation considers me a flake - i would rather do my good deeds in secret and get the reward from Jehovah than boast and gloat about my achievements in the congregation and get a reward in the from of the praise of men

Way to go Billy..I so admire you !!

[arimatthewdavies]

i would like to coment on the preaching and helping the hurting,this is what i see,it looks like jesus teachings were not about telling people how to behave.it was about going out among people with his work crew hunting down the hurting,and helping them! not just telling them of the hope of the comeing kingdom he showed people how to help the indivigual man or women that was hurting, thus backing up his words with brother how can i help you today? it is sad and should convict all of us how the mormons send out 2 men who preach a little then offer to help you with phisical labor,[i dont aprove their spoken sermon] but when we go door to door it should not be to just deliver words of comfort,and warn the wicked,but also to help those people with physical needs,and minister the needed help..thats what being christlike is about in my opinion.

[arimatthewdavies]

by the way instead of our standard time sheet , how about 1 that includes this while working teritory i noticed sick lady with over grown yard please meet me at 123 sick lady lane,and work with me for 1 hour

[TheMdC]

It's barely been three months since the "elders outrank the anointed" WT study article and there are still people who don't think the GB puts the elders on a pedestal? I've been told by elders that to question them (on procedure, not even doctrine) is to rebel against Jesus Christ himself, and they don't put themselves on a pedestal? GMAB.

[shikinah]

i would like to coment on the preaching and helping the hurting,this is what i see,it looks like jesus teachings were not about telling people how to behave.it was about going out among people with his work crew hunting down the hurting,and helping them! not just telling them of the hope of the comeing kingdom he showed people how to help the indivigual man or women that was hurting, thus backing up his words with brother how can i help you today? it is sad and should convict all of us how the mormons send out 2 men who preach a little then offer to help you with phisical labor,[i dont aprove their spoken sermon] but when we go door to door it should not be to just deliver words of comfort,and warn the wicked,but also to help those people with physical needs,and minister the needed help..thats what being christlike is about in my opinion.

Yes i agree with you here, funny enough i was speaking to a pioneer earlier in the summer and he told me he preaches where nobody else go's, he preaches to the homeless and in prisons. The funniest thing about this individual he is seen as a bit of a live wire, gets a bit tipsy and loud at parties and is looked down on by others. But deep down his heart is in the right place, more of us need to do this, obviously not alone but in small groups would be nice. I know theres a few brothers on here who have and have found it rewarding.

[billy2]

i would like to coment on the preaching and helping the hurting,this is what i see,it looks like jesus teachings were not about telling people how to behave.it was about going out among people with his work crew hunting down the hurting,and helping them! not just telling them of the hope of the comeing kingdom he showed people how to help the indivigual man or women that was hurting, thus backing up his words with brother how can i help you today? it is sad and should convict all of us how the mormons send out 2 men who preach a little then offer to help you with phisical labor,[i dont aprove their spoken sermon] but when we go door to door it should not be to just deliver words of comfort,and warn the wicked,but also to help those people with physical needs,and minister the needed help..thats what being christlike is about in my opinion.


thats how i see it too - when you read the accounts of Jesus preaching work - Jesus words are accompanied by many many good deeds - actions can speak louder than words - the power of these actions with Jesus words make his preaching work astounding and a fine example to follow - even though we cant prerform miracles, we can still do what is in our power to show people how to treat one another - theres not enough of this type of thinking at the kh - just like last weeks wt on preaching -

[Jahsdisciple]

thats how i see it too - when you read the accounts of Jesus preaching work - Jesus words are accompanied by many many good deeds - actions can speak louder than words - the power of these actions with Jesus words make his preaching work astounding and a fine example to follow - even though we cant prerform miracles, we can still do what is in our power to show people how to treat one another - theres not enough of this type of thinking at the kh - just like last weeks wt on preaching -

Hi Billy,
Actually,I think love is the miracle when we go out. When people are helped,its not just the message but how we treat people as we do it. I think this has just as great effect as the doctrine we teach. Most have never experienced love,so when spend time with them,its not just the book learning thats going on.

Its the connection we make with them. I think about the people Ive studied with...and its just hit me reading this thread that these people were changed by love as well as the things they learnt. The new family they gained was as much a changing thing for them as as the doctrines and new hope.

[billy2]

"love is the miracle"

well said - sending out the love to you and all

[shikinah]

LOVE really does make the world go round:)