The Old Testament and us...

[Utuna]

My dear brothers and sisters,

As I wrote to my dear sister Steadfast lately, we are far from having exhausted all the issues the Bible contains. No one can pretend this.

You might have read some of my previous posts in which I wrote that I strongly believe (as stated by Paul) that the OT (feasts, illustrations, prophecies, etc.) is a shadow of the things to come. The OT is a shadow of God's agenda for mankind. Unfortunetaly, our knowledge of the OT is not very big because not much attention is given to its structure by the WT or because we think it is now obsolete. Nevertheless, it belongs to the deep things of God. We can't understand the NT and the numerous prophecies it contains if we overlook what's written in the OT. We can't understand the details if we don't zoom out mentally and have, at first, a look at the main threads in God's Word.

I'm going to give you a few internet links. I had read the same elsewhere a few months ago but hadn't found sensible English internet sites that would give good explanations without adding too much Xfiles-like scenarios. Of course, the ideas provided by said sites might contain details that are not our faith, but I think that the main thread regarding the Law and its feasts is very interesting and may contain very compelling arguments!

I looking forward to seeing the fruit of your thoughts about it.

(site 1 (http://www.hananeel.com/jewishfeasts.htm))

(site 2 (http://biblicalholidays.com/))

(site 3 (http://www.russpickett.com/endtimes/rap03.htm))

If much older posts broached that subject a few years ago, thanks for telling me because I ignore if they exist.

---------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[truthseeker]

Thanks for the links; Utuna

Looks like interesting information.

Now to find the time for research!:(

truthseeker

[SWORDOFJAH]

Hello truthseeker. You know I once read from people that we as JW'S like to use a lot of scriptures and use examples from the "OT". If you read carefully we in fact like to quote from the OT. Those readings can surely benefit us. As you well know all scriptures are inspired by Jehovah. I like when the WT articles include OT references.

Take care.

[Molly]

Hi Utuna-

Here's another link: http://www.awarenessministry.org/ There are many who are coming to appreciate the roots upon which faith in Jesus depends. It's not just a bunch of Bible stories or merely a history of mankind's existence. For instance, tonight at sundown begins Yom Kippur. We could learn a lot from examining these holy days.

How could the OT not be still important? Jesus life was based on it. The information from the OT is what the Boereans used to test out whether what they were hearing was true. That should be the same for us today. Then, obviously, there are the many prophesies that can't be ignored if we want to have any understanding at all of what God's plan is.

I don't see how we can do without the OT.

Molly

[Utuna]

Hello truthseeker. You know I once read from people that we as JW'S like to use a lot of scriptures and use examples from the "OT". If you read carefully we in fact like to quote from the OT. Those readings can surely benefit us. As you well know all scriptures are inspired by Jehovah. I like when the WT articles include OT references.

Take care.

Dear SWORDOFJAH,

Even if I suppose that you are a good reader, I would like to reiterate what I wrote, just in case you ever misunderstood my thoughts:

1) "Unfortunetaly, our knowledge of the OT is not very big because not much attention is given to its structure by the WT or because we think it is now obsolete."

I don't say that the WT doesn't quote biblical verses from the OT. I talked about "the overall structure" of the Old Testament. The Bible has several levels of reading (verse by verse vs overall reading) and unfortunately, the latter is often neglected whereas we can learn much from that method of reading too.

I often try to read an entire book of the Bible at once and then, I ask myself, what was the overall message of it? What are the main threads? That method can be very beneficial!

2) ...because we think...

we = JWs in general. We often prefer to read the NT than the OT, and more precisely the Pentateuch.

---------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Utuna]

Hi Utuna-

Here's another link: http://www.awarenessministry.org/ There are many who are coming to appreciate the roots upon which faith in Jesus depends. It's not just a bunch of Bible stories or merely a history of mankind's existence. For instance, tonight at sundown begins Yom Kippur. We could learn a lot from examining these holy days.

How could the OT not be still important? Jesus life was based on it. The information from the OT is what the Boereans used to test out whether what they were hearing was true. That should be the same for us today. Then, obviously, there are the many prophesies that can't be ignored if we want to have any understanding at all of what God's plan is.

I don't see how we can do without the OT.

Molly

Dear Molly,

Thanks a lot for your link. I'll read it if the content is objective!

Destined to all,

Origin of the expression "the two witnesses" and "no one knows the day...":

Please read about Rosh Hashanah:

"The Talmud in Rosh Hashanah explains the process of sanctification of the new month. At the start of the lunar month, the moon is hardly apparent in the night sky. As the month proceeds, the crescent of the moon gradually increases until it reaches the status of being "full" on the 15th day of the lunar cycle. It then decreases in size until by the end of the lunar cycle / month it is no longer visible to the naked eye.

The Torah mandates that the Sanhedrin must announce the start of the new lunar cycle / month on the basis of the eyewitness testimonies of two witnesses. This required that two witnesses had seen the very first sliver of the new moon as it began its monthly cycle of appearance in the sky. They would then go to the high court in Yerushalayim who would cross examine the two witnesses to determine if what they claim to have seen was actually the "new moon." If the court was certain that the witnesses had seen was actually the "new moon", they would them declare the start of the new month in a ceremony called Kiddush Hachodesh -sanctification of the new month."

(quoted from there (http://www.torah.org/learning/rabbis-notebook/5759/bo.html))

"It should not be overlooked that two of the major Jewish festivals begin on the full moon, Passover and Succoth. Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year is different, it is the first day of the seventh month.

The Jewish month is based on the seeing the new moon. When two persons saw the new moon they would come to the Jewish High Court and give testimony that they had saw the moon. This did not mean that the court did not know when the moon was scheduled to appear, but rather that the sanctification of the moon had to be made according to eyewitness reports. The court would question the witnesses to ascertain that they indeed did see the moon. Afterwards, the court proclaimed that a new month had begun

Even if the court knew by its own calculations that the new moon was scheduled to appear on a certain day, but due to weather conditions it was not seen, they did not declare the new moon until the next day when witnesses arrived. It was conceivable that the new month would be delayed a day. Also the courts were empowered to add an extra month to the yearly cycle to insure that the holiday of Passover would be in the spring. For this purpose they would add another month to the yearly cycle. The year would then have thirteen months (as in this year 2000, or as we say, 5760)"

(quoted from there (http://www.jewishmag.com/29mag/moon/moon.htm))

"When the Shofar is blown on Rosh HaShana, three different types of noises are sounded. The first is a 'teki'ah.' This sound is one long continuous burst. The second sound is called a 'shevarim.' It consists of three shorter blasts. The third sound is the 'teruah.' The teruah is a set of nine short bursts of sound, a staccato blast. The Gemora in Rosh HaShana tells us that these later two sounds are meant to sound like crying: '. . . drawing a long sigh. . . uttering short piercing cries.' The Ben Ish Chai writes that these sounds are meant to contrast with the tekiah. The tekiah, he explains, is a sound of triumph and joy, while the shevarim and teruah are sounds of pain and suffering. Because of the opposing feelings they represent, when one blows the shofar, he is not to connect the tekiah with the others, by blowing the sounds with the same breath.

This is the only day in the whole year that was referred to as the hidden day or the day that no man knows.

[But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. (Matt 24:36)

(Quoted from there (http://philologos.org/bpr/files/Jewish_Feasts/js002.htm))


The name Rosh Hashanah means the (Jewish) New Year. It also is the following:

Tishri 1
The day no man can know the day or the hour
The day of the new moon
The day of the blowing of the Trumpets
The day of the last trump
The day of the awakening blast
The day of the Resurrection
The beginning of the 10 days of awe
One long day
The Day of the King (coronation)
The day the King takes a bride (wedding)
The day that all men will pass under the rod
The day that God divides mankind into 3 categories; the Wholly Righteous, Wholly Wicked, and the Intermediates.

As we examine each of these, we see a perfect picture of what we as gentile believers have been taught about the rapture of Christ’s church.

First we look at the day that no man can know the day or the hour. When Jesus said “no man can know the day or the hour” it was something the Jewish people would have associated with Rosh Hashanah.

Rosh Hashanah, which is on Tishri 1, could not be declared until the first sighting of the crescent moon is spotted in the night sky. When 2 or 3 witnesses spot it, they go to the priest and declare it. He would then declare the new moon and the New Year. At different places on the earth that time would be different. So Jewish people have different times they declare the New Year. It can be delayed by cloudy nights, and other situations. Interestingly, the Rosh Hashanah is always set apart as one long day or 2 days. That is so they can cover it either way. You can literally never know the day!

Next, we will look at the Feast of trumpets, which culminates on Rosh Hashanah. 30 days before, on the month of Elul, the trumpets (shofar) are blown calling people to repent, remember their sins and prepare for the judgement. They blow the shofar every evening for 30 days. On Rosh Hashanah is blown many times and the last blast is a long loud wail. It is called the last trump. (See I Cor. 15:52)

(quoted from there (http://web.mac.com/weaman/iWeb/Watchmen/Rapture-Rosh%20Hashanah.html))

I try to be objective and not to endorse any Christian religion in the quotations I use. As a result, if I use an Internet site of another religion, it doesn't mean that I want to advertise its credo. That's why I used the most frequently possible examples from Judaism. You may want to do more research into that issue by yourself via Jewish internet sites, as a consequence, you'll have all the explanations without the subjective Christian interpretation usually conveyed with Christian sites.

---------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[SWORDOFJAH]

We JW'S in fact have a reading program for the entire Bible. Point are discuus with present meaning. For example this week reading includes Numbers 30 to 32. Perharps a good research on these chapters will be delightful and very interestig. Or if your circumstances allow you and attend kingdom hall you will benefit from our brothers and sisters comments on the chapters for this week.

Take care and have a nice week.

[FutureMan]

We JW'S in fact have a reading program for the entire Bible. Point are discuus with present meaning. For example this week reading includes Numbers 30 to 32. Perharps a good research on these chapters will be delightful and very interestig. Or if your circumstances allow you and attend kingdom hall you will benefit from our brothers and sisters comments on the chapters for this week.

Take care and have a nice week.


Hello SWORDOFJAH, I'm curious. When you say we JW'S, are you inferring that none of us here are witnesses or that none of us here attend the Kingdom Hall?

[FutureMan]

Dear Molly,


Origin of the expression "the two witnesses" and "no one knows the day...":



Hello Utuna, yes that is interesting about the new moon and the two witnesses having to establish the sighting of the new moon for the new month and the celebrations.

[Steadfast]

Dear Utuna,

The subject of the Festivals has held my interest for quite awhile. It's easy to understand how the first four were fulfilled and applied, but the last three get tricky and apparently have latitude for application.

Recently, I have been discussing the last three with a friend with Jewish connections to have better understanding about them.

The second link you posted has some interesting information that gels with some of the conclusions of prophecy study that was done here on this forum.

The information also adds some significant points of interest to timing. One thing I will say is that the first four were all fulfilled in the spring months of the same year...on the exact days they were celebrated.

I wonder if it will be so for the last three? :185:

Love,

Steadfast

[truthseeker]

Hello SWORDOFJAH, I'm curious. When you say we JW'S, are you inferring that none of us here are witnesses or that none of us here attend the Kingdom Hall?

Thats the impression I came to also, regarding SlaveofJah's post! Or is he talking to the fellow doing the Jewish festival research with a facetious manner.
truthseeker

[Utuna]

Dear all,

Here is another excerpt, quoted from there (http://www.templeinstitute.org/rosh_hashana/sanctifying.htm):

"Two witnesses who had seen the appearance of the new moon were required to testify before the Great Sanhedrin, which convened in the Chamber of Hewn Stone, which was located on the northern wall of the Inner Courtyard of the Holy Temple. There they would be questioned and cross examined to verify their fitness as witnesses, and the truth of their words. Only when this had been done to the satisfaction of the sages of the Great Sanhedrin, would the Rosh Hashana service in the Holy Temple begin. Great care and effort was invested by the sages to ensure the veracity and efficency of the entire procedure of proclaiming the new moon. Ultimately, it all depended on the willingness of the common people to come forth as witnesses. One can only imagine the sense of obligation and privilege felt by each witness as he made his way to Jerusalem."

.../...

"An incident is related in the Talmud, concerning the city of Lod: It was Shabbat. A number of witnesses to the new moon were passing through the city on their way to testifying before the Great Sanhedrin in Jerusalem. A man named Zefer, who was the mayor of the city of Geder, detained the witnesses. He was of the opinion that witnesses had most certainly already arrived in Jerusalem and presented their testimony. Therefore, he concluded, it was unnecessary for these witnesses to continue on their way, especially since doing so involved a desecration of the Shabbat."

.../...

"A special courtyard, by the name of Beit Ya'azek, was built in Jerusalem, for the purpose of accomodating arriving witnesses to the new moon. There they were provided with a large meal, and a place to rest as they waited to be called to testify at the Great Sanhedrin. The warm welcome received by the witnesses was intended to lighten the burden of their journey, as well as to encourage people to step forth and travel to Jerusalem when they had witnessed the new moon."

.../...

"There were enemies of the Jews who sought to harm the Jewish people by deceiving them into observing Rosh Hashana, and the ensuing holidays, at the wrong times. The Talmud tells of an attempt by the Boethusian sect, which one year bribed two witnesses to provide false testimony before the Great Sanhedrin, with the intention of causing the sages to err in their calculations of the new moon. One of the witnesses, however, proved to be a "double-agent," and revealed to the sages the bag containing two hundred pieces of silver that he had been provided in order to perjure himself. The illustration above shows him holding the bag of silver coins, while the man who had placed the bribe in his hands is being led away to receive his punishment: lashes."

.../...

"Determining the appearance of the new moon through eyewitness testimony was always accompanied with anticipation and uncertainty. The new moon or new year offerings could not be commenced until two witnesses had arrived and testified before the Great Sanhedrin, to the satisfaction of the Great Sanhedrin. It was customary for people to begin observing the holiday as a precautionary measure, even before the testimony had been offered or accepted. It is told that on one occasion, witnesses arrived at dusk. In the rush and ensuing confusion, the Levites neglected to sing their daily psalm. In order to prevent a recurrence, the sages ruled that testimony would henceforth be accepted only up to the time of the daily afternoon offering. If witnesses failed to arrive by this time, the following day would nevertheless be observed as Rosh HaShana."

.../...

"Immediately upon proclaiming, "The day is hallowed!," messengers on horseback were dispatched to bring the news of the sanctification of the new moon to all the villages of Israel and beyond. The swift broadcast of the news was essential in order to enable all to observe Rosh Hashana on the proper day."

.../...

"Simultaneously, the proclamation of the new moon would go out from Jerusalem by way of torches lit by specially appointed "relay teams" who were located on strategically places hill tops. Using this method, the news could be transmitted quickly all the way to the Jewish communities of Babylon and Persia. Speed was of the essence in order to enable all to observe Rosh Hashana and the following holidays in their proper times."

.../...

"This map depicts the precise route along which the torches were lit signifying the appearance of the new moon. The first station along the route was Har HaMishcha, (the Mount of Annointing, known today as the Mount of Olives). The route proceeded north east in order to reach the Babylonian city of Pumbedita, which was a major center of Jewish life."


-----------------------------------


From the text I quoted, I've noticed that even if only two witnesses were required to start the celebration of Rosh Hashana, many would come and present themselves as eye-witnesses. It might be a good representation of the many eye-witnesses of Jesus' presence who will go to Jerusalem because of what they saw (fulfillment of the transfiguration?).

Furthermore, the text shows that false witnesses may come and tell that the new moon had appeared whereas it was wrong. This may well typify the premature claims of the bad slave within the WT.

---------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Utuna]

We JW'S in fact have a reading program for the entire Bible. Point are discuus with present meaning. For example this week reading includes Numbers 30 to 32. Perharps a good research on these chapters will be delightful and very interestig. Or if your circumstances allow you and attend kingdom hall you will benefit from our brothers and sisters comments on the chapters for this week.

Take care and have a nice week.


Dear SWORDOFJAH,

Please, what is the tool provided by "our brothers" that is used and quoted word-by-word by 99,99% of the JWs when making comments during the highlights?

Does this tool or other articles of the WT mention what I'm talking about on this thread?

You like to quote? Please do!

Have a nice week too!

---------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[billy2]

great stuff - i hadnt even thought about the other 3 festivals in the fall - they must be significant

the 3rd site had some good comparisons - especially the jewish wedding and how Jesus and his bride will fullfill these rolls


i was wondering if anyone knows why 2 days is significant:

"Note that 1000 years is like a day to the Lord. Within 2 days or 2000 years Jesus will return for His bride!"

i copied and pasted this comment from the same page

i rember years ago - proberbly the 70's - when the jewish biblical traditions were discussed alot more by the wto an how they had a second fullfillment - i havent read the mags consistantly now for awhile - so dont know if these types of things are being brought out by them

[arimatthewdavies]

with the explaination of the festivals given,its clear jehovah used the jewish nation to paint a very detailed picture it seems of his plan,its like every date and festival represents the comeing of the kingdom and the judgemet,and even the new systems arival, quite thoughtful to go to such work prepareing such an informative writting thank you. do the seven names of jehovah have any relation to this?

[Utuna]

Dear Utuna,

The subject of the Festivals has held my interest for quite awhile. It's easy to understand how the first four were fulfilled and applied, but the last three get tricky and apparently have latitude for application.

Recently, I have been discussing the last three with a friend with Jewish connections to have better understanding about them.

The second link you posted has some interesting information that gels with some of the conclusions of prophecy study that was done here on this forum.

The information also adds some significant points of interest to timing. One thing I will say is that the first four were all fulfilled in the spring months of the same year...on the exact days they were celebrated.

I wonder if it will be so for the last three? :185:

Love,

Steadfast

Dear Steadfast,

I don't pretend to have the answer, only hypothesis!

My reasoning is the following:

Jesus' disciples must follow the same path as their Master. The book of Revelation says that they will prophesy during 42 months, that is 3,5 years, like the Lord did in the past. Just as Jesus received God's Holy Spirit when he got baptized, the FDS will receive God's Holy Spirit in a full measure 42 months before being killed or silenced. At the end of the 42 months, they're killed (or silenced) (Passover) and are resurrected (or changed) 3,5 days later.

You want to use your brain? lol :p

Please read in Dn12:11-12:

"And from the time that the constant [feature] has been removed and there has been a placing of the disgusting thing that is causing desolation, there will be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Happy is the one who is keeping in expectation and who arrives at the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days".

What are the feasts aimed by the numbers I quoted from the book of Daniel (1335-1290=?????; 1290-1260=????). I promise, I haven't done the calculation beforehand.... I don't know if what I say is wrong!

I think that Christ's body must be completed so that Rosh Hashana gets started....

My dear beloved sister, I've read and learned much from your posts, more than you can imagine. I'm sure you can find the answer... or prove me wrong! :p ;) :D

---------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[SWORDOFJAH]

Hello SWORDOFJAH, I'm curious. When you say we JW'S, are you inferring that none of us here are witnesses or that none of us here attend the Kingdom Hall?


To be honest I don't know for sure who still is a JW'S and who is not. But if you or any are so I am happy for it.

[SWORDOFJAH]

Dear SWORDOFJAH,

Please, what is the tool provided by "our brothers" that is used and quoted word-by-word by 99,99% of the JWs when making comments during the highlights?
The Bible. Also a great deal of research done by the brothers and sisters.

Does this tool or other articles of the WT mention what I'm talking about on this thread?
Perharps. Can you post what you want to know about a specific theme so I can research to see what is found??
You like to quote? Please do!

Have a nice week too!

[Utuna]

Dear SWORDOFJAH,

Please, what is the tool provided by "our brothers" that is used and quoted word-by-word by 99,99% of the JWs when making comments during the highlights?
The Bible. Also a great deal of research done by the brothers and sisters.

Does this tool or other articles of the WT mention what I'm talking about on this thread?
Perharps. Can you post what you want to know about a specific theme so I can research to see what is found??
You like to quote? Please do!

Have a nice week too!

Dear SWORDOFJAH,

I know you have perfectly understood what was entailed by the words I wrote. You're always eluding the real issues asked you. I told you lately that I don't like to be taken for a fool...

You're much more intelligent and subtle than what you want us to think. You know how to "trick" us into talking about things that are off the point our questions...

You're using the same tricks as you used with Gabriel's question. Did you give him a thorough answer? I don't think so! It seems that mine will end up the same way, YOU dodging the questions skilfully!

Contrary to what you imply in your answers, my questions are very precise and you know it!

At times, I wonder if you're not a member of the GB or someone highly considered in the WT. The way you phrase your sentences and express your thoughts is very similar.

You were a member of this DB right from the start and (until recently, the number of the messages you posted here wasn't very high. Nevertheless, it seems you're getting much more talkative since a few weeks ago... aren't you?) I had never read many posts from you since a few weeks ago.

Is there something you're fretting about?

Here, we talk about love, sufferings and about very interesting spiritual issues and your unique concern is to defend "our brothers"! Are you a GB-bot or a human entirely insensitive and unfeeling to what happens within God's fold or unsensitive to spiritual discussions?

By the way, you said in your previous post that the b/s use and quote the Bible but it's sooo sad you don't use it yourself. You always quote WT articles but you never USE the Bible, never ever! Please, may I ask you to USE the Bible a bit more henceforth.... just as I asked many members of this DB to! ;)

I'm really looking forward to reading the real answers to the questions I asked you previously!


"Have a good night and remember to pray to Jehovah before sleep."---------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[SWORDOFJAH]

Hello Utuna. Just to clarify something. No I am not a GB member my friend. Please feel free to ask me any Biblical question. I would be glad to share scriptures with you. I also like to talk about love and spiritual matters as my posts showed. Also I am aware of the suffering that we as servants of Jehovah go through. I pray every day for the entire brotherhood as this system of things get worst every day. Jah bless you.

[panda]

Hello Utuna. Just to clarify something. No I am not a GB member my friend. Please feel free to ask me any Biblical question. I would be glad to share scriptures with you. I also like to talk about love and spiritual matters as my posts showed. Also I am aware of the suffering that we as servants of Jehovah go through. I pray every day for the entire brotherhood as this system of things get worst every day. Jah bless you.Utuna's questions was: At times, I wonder if you're not a member of the GB or someone highly considered in the WT. You only answer I am not a GB, so therefore you didn't lie but didnt' tell the whole truth, is that the case?

Are you in bethel, or an elder, are you here to search out someone, I have a feeling the way you answer posts is very organizational, you definately sound like you are here for a purpose other than contributing to the forum by interchange of scripture.

Why did you ask me to be my friend? if I attend meetings or not is none of your buisness, if you are here to try and find out about someone to spy for the WTS I find that dispicable.

Please forgive me if I am wrong, I have had experience on another forum awhile back with someone from bethel pretending to be an interested one only to try and find out information about certain members.

[truthseeker]

MY MY MY - When the Cat's away the mice do play!:huh:

[arimatthewdavies]

oh but what a dull boreing life the cat would have without mice to chase!

[Steadfast]

Please read in Dn12:11-12:

"And from the time that the constant [feature] has been removed and there has been a placing of the disgusting thing that is causing desolation, there will be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

I think that Christ's body must be completed so that Rosh Hashana gets started....

Dear Sister Utuna,

Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

It would be guessing on my part as to what most of the passages in Daniel are saying. This is the only verse I am comfortable commenting on:

Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the desolating abomination set up, a thousand two hundred and ninety days shall occur.

The only daily sacrifice I can think of is Jesus Christ himself. If we are watching what is going on in the world today, Jesus is being removed as our means of salvation and being replaced with a False Messiah.

When that False Messiah is clearly evident, the 1,290 days begin. This will probably be set up before the great trib breaks out, which Revelation says the beast rules for 1,260 days. So it looks like 30 days beforehand to me.

As far as the Feast of Trumpets, it makes sense to me also that the body of Christ will be permanently sealed, will have fully accomplished the preaching of the two witnesses, will be killed and resurrected....thus announcing with the trumpet call that the rapture/first resurrection has begun:

1Th 4:16-17 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.

Ten days after Feast of Trumpets, the Day of Atonement takes place. During those 10 days, according to Jewish tradition, it is the time of repentance. The Day of Atonement can serve as judgment or salvation as the 2 goats on that day in Jewish theology picture.

This Day of Atonement probably pictures Armageddon as described in Matthew 25, when Jesus separates the sheep and goats. These are judged by how they treated the brothers of Christ. I am wondering if some of those who participated in the killing of the two witnesses might not repent of their dirty deed before this time when they fully realize what the stakes are for them.

Finally, 7 days after the Day of Atonement, is the Feast of Tabernacles. The intervening 7 days traditionally picture the wedding feast of the bride and groom, which traditionally lasts that length of time.

The Feast of Tabernacles seems to picture dwelling under our own vine and fig tree in the Millenium.

I hope this helps. I'm still sifting through a lot of information myself to sort out details and relevancy. Any thoughts you have, would be appreciated.

Love,

Steadfast

[Jinnvisible]

It is a fascinating area of study.

I don`t remember ever reading that the moon required two eye witnesses to make official certifications. (learn something new e-day)

Charles Russell used this approach to allot of his interpretive study. Its a vital approach that should be exhausted to the full extent of possibility.

Its limitations occur when Jehovah ordinates unpresidented events. So you may have a jubillee, festival, trumpet, city of refuge, nazerite code, ect. They may have a re-invested meaning with future / present prophesy fulfillment yet they will not always be widely recognised even within the body or worshipers or the annointed congregation because thier current re-apropriations are unpresidented.

I think SwordForJah is coming from the point of view that whatever is known or not known the WTBTS program is the best way of focusing on what needs to be understood. I have come into some understandings of bible prophesy fulfillment which are not widely understood and ultimately what that has really done for me is to make me understand that love is more important than knowledge. Many of God's servants were misunderstood and went unrecognised. Jesus, David many prophets. The fact is they encounted and had exchanges with many other people during thier lifetimes and whilst those other people would at those points in time not have been able to recognise the full implications of what was happening in showing love at those times they would fulfill thier obligations.

I think the WTBTS program whilst important and usefull can give the impression that it is `all important` which eventually is obviously going to be devestating to the faith of many beliveres.

[Eyes & Ears]

It is a fascinating area of study.

I don`t remember ever reading that the moon required two eye witnesses to make official certifications. (learn something new e-day)

Charles Russell used this approach to allot of his interpretive study. Its a vital approach that should be exhausted to the full extent of possibility.

Its limitations occur when Jehovah ordinates unpresidented events. So you may have a jubillee, festival, trumpet, city of refuge, nazerite code, ect. They may have a re-invested meaning with future / present prophesy fulfillment yet they will not always be widely recognised even within the body or worshipers or the annointed congregation because thier current re-apropriations are unpresidented.

I think SwordForJah is coming from the point of view that whatever is known or not known the WTBTS program is the best way of focusing on what needs to be understood. I have come into some understandings of bible prophesy fulfillment which are not widely understood and ultimately what that has really done for me is to make me understand that love is more important than knowledge. Many of God's servants were misunderstood and went unrecognised. Jesus, David many prophets. The fact is they encounted and had exchanges with many other people during thier lifetimes and whilst those other people would at those points in time not have been able to recognise the full implications of what was happening in showing love at those times they would fulfill thier obligations.

I think the WTBTS program whilst important and usefull can give the impression that it is `all important` which eventually is obviously going to be devestating to the faith of many beliveres.



************************************************** ****


I have come into some understandings of bible prophesy fulfillment which are not widely understood and ultimately what that has really done for me is to make me understand that love is more important than knowledge


Hey Jinnster,

As long as I never forget about love, I will be OKEY DOKEY. So very true. Thanks for the reminder.





I think the WTBTS program whilst important and usefull can give the impression that it is `all important` which eventually is obviously going to be devestating to the faith of many believers.



AMEN TO THE ABOVE.

E & E

[arimatthewdavies]

here is something to think about .when we are in jehovahs paradise people will read about us,what will our testament be called?

[TheMdC]

I don't know about the title but I have little doubt that we'll be looked at as just as wayward and stiff-necked as the Israelites were. How could we not be? Look at the mess we've made of The Way that Christ gave us.

[Utuna]

It is a fascinating area of study.

I don`t remember ever reading that the moon required two eye witnesses to make official certifications. (learn something new e-day)

Charles Russell used this approach to allot of his interpretive study. Its a vital approach that should be exhausted to the full extent of possibility.

Its limitations occur when Jehovah ordinates unpresidented events. So you may have a jubillee, festival, trumpet, city of refuge, nazerite code, ect. They may have a re-invested meaning with future / present prophesy fulfillment yet they will not always be widely recognised even within the body or worshipers or the annointed congregation because thier current re-apropriations are unpresidented.

I think SwordForJah is coming from the point of view that whatever is known or not known the WTBTS program is the best way of focusing on what needs to be understood. I have come into some understandings of bible prophesy fulfillment which are not widely understood and ultimately what that has really done for me is to make me understand that love is more important than knowledge. Many of God's servants were misunderstood and went unrecognised. Jesus, David many prophets. The fact is they encounted and had exchanges with many other people during thier lifetimes and whilst those other people would at those points in time not have been able to recognise the full implications of what was happening in showing love at those times they would fulfill thier obligations.

I think the WTBTS program whilst important and usefull can give the impression that it is `all important` which eventually is obviously going to be devestating to the faith of many beliveres.

Hi Jinn,

Great post!

You said:


"I have come into some understandings of bible prophesy fulfillment which are not widely understood and ultimately what that has really done for me is to make me understand that love is more important than knowledge.
The core principle of the Law was love. Jesus did abolish the Law but also fulfilled it. Yes, he fulfilled it in demonstrating to mankind what love is. Jesus abolished all the features of the Law that were related to forgiveness of sins (sacrifices, etc.) but fulfilled all that was related to Love. So to speak, sin is a lack of love. If someone loves perfectly, how many times will he sin? Not many!

We must remember that "laws are for humans, but not humans for laws". If we love perfectly, we don't need laws. That's why I don't see the point of all those directives and "pieces of advice" given by the WT in their books or articles. We don't need to be told what to do or what not to do, we just need to be told: "love your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your intelligence" and "love your neighbour as yourself". Once that is said, what else should we add?

In reality, love and knowledge are just two sides of the same coin. Love is the fulfilment of knowledge.

---------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Utuna]

Dear all,

At last I've found the paragraph and the footnote I was looking for since a couple of weeks ago.

Please read :

2.1.2. Judah's Enslavement by Babylon (604 BCE)

In his days Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, marched forth, and Jehoiakim became his vassal. (2Kgs24:1)
The beginning of the Babylonian-Egyptian struggle for control of Syria-Palestine (609 BCE) symbolizes the beginning of the decline of the Judean kingdom as it headed toward destruction. This decline was the result of the small kingdom's location in the struggle between great empires. But it was also the outcome of the reckless and improvident policy of the last kings of Judah and of political and religious turmoil among various sectors of the Jerusalem elite. The events that took place in Judah immediately after the killing of Josiah at Megiddo*, apparently at the time that Necho II went to the assistance of Assur-uballit II in his attempt to reconquer Harran (June/July 609 BCE), signal the beginning of the decline. There is no information about the circumstances leading up to the anointing of Shalum-Jehoahaz (2Kgs23:30b), the younger son of Josiah, or the preference for him over his brother. Despite this lack of information, it is likely that this act reflected a national-activist trend in the circle of those who were not willing to accept Egyptian hegemony. Support for this assumption may be found in the response by Necho II. Upon his return from Harran three months after Josiah's death (August/September 609 BCE), Necho II deported Jehoahaz to Egypt. In his place, he appointed Jehoahaz's older brother Eliakim, whose name was changed into Jehoiakim, and levied heavy tribute on Judah. Against this backdrop, it is reasonable to assume that Jehoiakim began to count the days of his rule from the time when Josiah died, three months before he ascended the throne.

There is no information about what happened in Judah during the first four years of Jehoiakim's reign. During these years, Egypt established its control over Syria-Palestine in preparation for the decisive battle with the Babylonians over the control of the banks of the Euphrates. The proximity of the kingdom of Judah to Egypt and the latter's control over the region did not allow the small kingdom any political or military leeway, and it is probable that Jehoiakim had no choice but to remain loyal to Egypt.


* The only information on this event provided by the Bible is the death of Josiah at the hands of Pharaoh Necho, king of Egypt, when the latter came to the assistance of the king of Assyria on the Euphrates River (2Kgs23:29; Cogan and Tadmor 1988:291). For a summary of the historical discussion and a consideration of the problems that arise from the nature of the description, see Cogan and Tadmor 1988:301; Na'aman 1991a:53-55; Ahlström 1993:766-67. In this context, one must consider the uniformity of the closing formulas in the book of Kings: in every case, at the end of a dynasty in Israel when the king was murdered by a contender to the throne, the closing formula is limited to a reference to the rest of the king's deeds and actions and the description of his burial and the accession of his heir is missing (1Kgs15:31-32; 16:14, 20; 2Kgs15:11-12, 15, 26, 31). In Judah, there are no parallels to this, and in the only case when a king is killed by another king (Ahaziah, who is killed by Jehu), the closing formula is missing and the description is limited to the transportation of his body to Jerusalem, in language similar to that which describes the bearing of Josiah's body (2Kgs9:27-28). In my opinion, the author (Dtr2; see the discussion in chap. 5) was familiar with the description of the death of Ahaziah, and he used the closing formula from the description of Ahaziah's death to describe the death of Josiah. On this subject, see the comment by Halpern and Vanderhooft 1991:195, and see their more extensive discussion on the subject, 1991:214-15.


The Fall and Rise Of Jerusalem - Oded Lipschits (p.42-45)


---------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Utuna]

Dear all,

Here (http://messianicfellowship.50webs.com/wedding.html) is another example of how the Jewish Law and customs fit with our faith and our hope and were a shadow of the things to come. Of course, in the excerpt quoted below, the nature of the Israel of God may be different from what the JWs believe (which is what I believe too) but we can be sure that the main ideas are really scriptural. There are many other sites that describe how Jewish weddings took place in the past and each one of them has slight differences according to the beliefs of the author. I repeat, before jumping to hasty conclusions, it is better to be careful and to consider as authentic and "pure milk" (1Pe2:2) the Jewish customs only.

Enjoy !

Jewish Wedding Customs and the Bride of Messiah
Written by Glenn Kay

There are many customs appointed by God as teaching tools. In a unique way, the Jewish Wedding Ceremony (as opposed to any other cultural expression) is a detailed illustration of the Messiah's relationship to His bride.

The Shiddukhin - Arrangements preliminary to Betrothal

What is Shiddukhin?
Shiddukhin refers to the first step in the marriage process - the arraignments preliminary to the legal betrothal. It was common in ancient Israel of the father of the groom to select a bride for his son.

Biblical Example of Shiddukhin - Genesis 24:1-4 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Genesis%2024.1-4)
Notice in this passage Abraham - makes arrangements for his son Isaac's wedding. While the father usually had the responsibility in Abraham's life it was not possible. It was acceptable for the father to delegate this responsibility by designating a representative - called a shadkhan - marriage broker or matchmaker.

The next phase of this step was the - Ketubah
Ketubah means - "written" Written in Hebrew as - hbtk. The ketubah was and still is today the - "marriage contract." The ketubah includes the provisions and conditions of the proposed marriage:


The groom promises to support his wife to be.
The bride stipulates the contents of her dowry - financial status.

We see this described in - Gen. 24:52-53 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Gen.%2024.52-53). Despite the fact that this was an "arraigned marriage", it appears that the consent of the bride was very much a part of the ketubah - (Gen. 24:5 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Gen.%2024.5)).

The Mohar - or Bridal Payment
This is sometimes called - the Bride price. It is a gift paid by the groom to the bride's family - but ultimately belongs to the bride. It changed her status and set her free from her parent's household. We see this illustrated in two Biblical examples:


Isaac and Rebecca - Gen. 24:53 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Gen.%2024.53)
Jacob and his wives - Gen. 29:20 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Gen.%2029.20),27 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Gen%2029.27)

The Mikveh - or Ritual Immersion
Although not mentioned in the narrative - to prepare for betrothal it was common for the bride and groom to separately take a ritual immersion. The ritual immersion - mikveh -taken from the Hebrew - hwqm was prior to actually entering into the formal betrothal period, and was symbolic of spiritual cleansing.

Illustrated in Messiah's Bride
The shiddukhin starts with the father's selection of a bride for his beloved son. So too - were we selected by the Father to be His Beloved Son's loving precious bride - (Eph. 1:4 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Eph.%201.4)). As in the case of Isaac - there is also a matchmaker - (II Cor. 11:10-12 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/II%20Cor.%2011.10-12)). We also have a legal contract - a ketubah hbtk - which is the New Covenant itself in which:


The groom promises love an care for His bride - and to give Himself for her . He also has paid the proper price for His bride - (His own life).
The bride promises to pay her dowry - her financial status - that of her yielded life and to keep herself for Him - (I Cor. 6:20 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/I%20Cor.%206.20)).

The Mohar - is also illustrated in our relationship to Yeshua - we are told in (I Cor. 6: 19-20 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/I%20Cor.%206.%2019-20)) that we have been redeemed with a price. We are also told that our bride's price is not just silver and gold but His own life (I Pet. 1:18-19 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/I%20Pet.%201.18-19))

Both bride and groom have undergone the waters of mikveh or immersion - Yeshua at the beginning of His ministry (Mat. 3: 13-17) and we His bride in the cleansing waters (Eph.5:26-27 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Eph.5.26-27), I Cor. 6:11 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/I%20Cor.%206.11)).

The Eyrusin - or Betrothal

What is Eyrusin?
The word eyrusin means - Betrothal. The period is also called - kiddushim - meaning "sanctification" or "set apart." This word really defines the purpose of the betrothal period - it is a time in which the couple are to set side to prepare themselves to enter into the covenant of marriage. The Jewish understanding of betrothal has always been much stronger than our modern understanding of an engagement. The betrothal was so binding that the couple would need a religious divorce or (get) in order to annul the contract (Deut. 24:1-4 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Deut.%2024.1-4)). This option was only available to the husband, as the wife had no say in any divorce proceeding - this point will be very important when we view the spiritual implications later.

Aspects of the Betrothal
After the couple had undergone - Mikveh hwqm (immersion) , each separately, they would appear together under the Huppah - or canopy - and in public they would express their intention of becoming betrothed or engaged. From ancient times - the wedding canopy has been a symbol of a new household being planned - (Ps. 19:5 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Ps.%2019.5); Joel 2:16 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Joel%202.16)). While under the Huppah the couple participated in a ceremony in which some items of value were exchanged - such as rings, and a cup of wine was shared to seal the betrothal vows. After the ceremony - the couple was considered to have entered into the betrothal agreement. This period was to last for one year. During this time the couple was considered married - yet did not have sexual relations - and continued to live separately until the end of the betrothal. We see this time of betrothal illustrated in the gospels as reflected in the lives of Yoseph and Miriam - (see Mat. 1:18-25 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Mat.%201.18-25)).

The Matan - or Bridal Gift
Following this betrothal ceremony the groom would return to his home to fulfill his obligations during the betrothal. But just prior to leaving he would give his wife to be a Matan ntm - or bridal gift, a pledge of his love for her. It's purpose was to be a reminder to his bride during their days of separation of his love for her, that he was thinking of her - and that he would return to receive her as his wife.

The Couple's Responsibilities During the Betrothal
During betrothal the groom's responsibility was to focus on preparing a new dwelling place for his bride and family:


In Biblical times this was most often done not by building a new home - but by simply adding additional rooms to the family's existing home.
The Rabbi's determined that the place to which the bride was to be taken must be better than the place she had lived before.
It was not the groom's duty to determine when the place he was preparing for the bride was ready - his father would make that determination and give the go ahead to receive his bride.

The bride also was to keep herself busy in preparation for the wedding day - specifically wedding garments were to be sewn and prepared.

Illustrated in Messiah's Betrothal to His Bride
As the betrothal includes the blessings of the wine under the huppah, one of the last of Yeshua's actions was to bless the cup of the New Covenant - the cup of the ketubah hbtk - that contract of marriage. He too stated that He would not tasted again until a later time, when he would drink at the wedding feast. The image of our betrothal also answers the question of whether believers can loose their salvation. The Scripture points to the fact that we are betrothed to the Messiah - we are in that engagement period prior to the wedding:


As in any betrothal - the promise is so sure of our wedding that it would take a religious (get) divorce to nullify the contract.
This divorce (get) is only available to the husband.
This too is promised by God in Hosea 2:19-20 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Hosea%202.19-20) - He promises that He will betrothal His people to Himself - forever. Would God ever divorce His people - (Malachi 2:16 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Malachi%202.16)) - certainly it is not in His character to divorce.
The lesson or implications are quite clear - we are secure in our Messiah's contract with us - we cannot break it - and He promises that He will not break it - (Jn. 10:28 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Jn.%2010.28)).

How is Messiah fulfilling His betrothal obligations? What was the duty of the bridegroom during the period of the betrothal? To prepare a household for his bride to be. Is this not what He (Yeshua) said He would be doing ?(Jn. 14:1-3 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Jn.%2014.1-3)). He is fulfilling His part of the betrothal. Where is the Matan ntm - or bridal gift of love from Messiah - if indeed we are His betrothed. Remember the word Matan ntm means gift or pledge - in Greek the word is Charismata - gift. In (Eph 1:13-14 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Eph%201.13-14)) Paul tells us that this pledge or gift - is the Holy Spirit - a promise of love and that He will return for us. Interestingly this pledge was given at Shavuot (Pentecost) - Acts2:1-4 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Acts2.1-4). Could He also be telling us not only of His love but just how He is fulfilling (Jer 31:33 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Jer%2031.33))?

But what of His bride - what is she to be doing? During this one year period - the bride would consecrate herself - and prepare holy garments for the upcoming marriage. Paul puts this preparation in very clear terms - (Eph 5:25-27 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Eph%205.25-27)). The bridegroom is making preparations to return for His bride - we need to ask ourselves are we as His betrothed keeping our garments clean? Are we arrayed in our bridal attire, and keeping our ketubah hbtk - covenant promises and vows?

The Nissuin - Marriage Itself

The culminating step in the Process of the Jewish Wedding
The final step in the wedding proces is called - Nissuin - the word commons from the Hebrew verb - hsn ( nasa) - which means , "to carry." This is a graphic description - as the bride would be waiting for her groom to come - to carry her off to her new home. The period of the betrothal - was a time of great anticipation - as the bride waited for the arrival of her betrothed. One of the unique features of the Biblical Jewish wedding was the time of the groom's arrival - it was to be a surprise:


The bride took the betrothal seriously - expecting the at the end of the year long period of the betrothal.
She knew the approximate timing - but the exact hour or day was uncertain.
It was the father of the groom who would give the final approval for the marriage to begin.

The coming of the Bridegroom and the Wedding Begins
Since the time of his arrival was a surprise - the bride and her bridal party were always to be ready - this is the background of Yeshua's parable (Mat. 25:1-13 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Mat.%2025.1-13)). It was customary for one of the grooms party to go ahead of the bridegroom, leading the way to the bride's house - and shout - "Behold, the bridegroom comes." This would be followed by the sounding of the shofar. At the sounding of the shofar the entire wedding processional would go through the streets of the city to the bride's house. The groomsmen would again set up the huppah:


Again the couple would say a blessing over the cup of wine.
The ceremony finalized the promises and vows.

The pinnacle of this joyful celebration was the marriage supper:

It was much more than just a sit down dinner for all the guests.
It included seven full days of food, music, dance and celebration - (Jn. 14:10-12 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Jn.%2014.10-12)).
After the festivities the husband was free to bring his bride to their new home to live together as husband and wife in the full covenant of marriage.

Messiah's Wedding - Still to Come
Yeshua - told His disciples - that He did not know the day or hour of His return (Mat. 24:32-36 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Mat.%2024.32-36)) - this is not so much to say He does not have all knowledge - but as with any Jewish bridegroom - He must wait for His Father to give the word that the set time has come.

As we noted before - in a traditional Jewish wedding - one of the groom's men would go before the arrival of the groom and shout - Behold the groom comes - should we expect anything less with the coming of our heavenly bridegroom? But where do we see such an event? - if we look to ( I Thess 4:16-18 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/I%20Thess%204.16-18)) we see that just prior to our Lord's we return - there will indeed be a shout - from one of the ruling angels - what might this angel shout, could it be - "Behold the groom comes?" We also saw that after this joyful proclamation of the groom's men there was in a traditional Jewish wedding the joyful sounding of the shofar. Will this happen when our Lord returns to receive His bride? If we continue reading the description of our Lord's future wedding in (I Thess 4:16-18 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/I%20Thess%204.16-18)) we see there also - the sounding of the shofar in annunciation of His return.

At the sounding of the shofar the entire wedding processional would go through the streets of the city to the bride's house - but where is this wedding processional at Yeshua's coming wedding - again it is clearly pictured for us in (I Thess 4:16-18 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/I%20Thess%204.16-18)) - where all of Yeshua's wedding party is gathered together for the great wedding feast.

The pinnacle of the Jewish wedding was the joyful celebration of the marriage supper - this too is a facet of our Lord's soon coming wedding (Rev 19:7-9 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Rev%2019.7-9)).

One last question needs to be raised - who is the bride of Yeshua?


From the passage in Hosea (2:19-20) it is clear that Israel is the Bride of God.
Yet the Newer Covenant Scriptures tell us that the "church" is the bride of Messiah.
Does God have two brides? Is He a polygamist? No!
Or, is it possible as some have suggested, God divorced one bride - Israel, to marry another - the church? That cannot be - for God has told us He hates divorce (Mal 2:16 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Mal%202.16)) and Jeremiah affirms God's everlasting covenant with the physical people Israel (Jer 31:35-37 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Jer%2031.35-37)). This too is affirmed by Paul in (Rom 9-11).
The best solution then is - to affirm the fact that God has always had one bride - His chosen people Israel. This has been enlarged to include those grafted in to Israel (Rom 11:17 (http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Rom%2011.17)), the gentile believers.

---------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton