A paragraph from the latest Watchtower

[Nightflyer]

This is from the November 09 issue:

"The spirit that now operates in the sons of disobedience" is so widespread that it is like the air we breathe. (Eph. 2:2) That spirit can cause us to think that we do not need guidance from Jehovah's organization. Surely we do not want to be like Diotrephes, who would not 'receive anything from the apostle John with respect.' (3 John 9,10) We need to guard against developing a spirit of independence. By word or action, may we never challenge the channel of communication that Jehovah is using today.(Num 16:1-3) On the contrary, we should cherish our privilege to cooperate with the slave class. And should we not strive to be obedient and submission to those taking the lead in our local congregation? - Read Hebrews 13:7,17."

:icon8:

[Eyes & Ears]

This is from the November 09 issue:

"The spirit that now operates in the sons of disobedience" is so widespread that it is like the air we breathe. (Eph. 2:2) That spirit can cause us to think that we do not need guidance from Jehovah's organization. Surely we do not want to be like Diotrephes, who would not 'receive anything from the apostle John with respect.' (3 John 9,10) We need to guard against developing a spirit of independence. By word or action, may we never challenge the channel of communication that Jehovah is using today.(Num 16:1-3) On the contrary, we should cherish our privilege to cooperate with the slave class. And should we not strive to be obedient and submission to those taking the lead in our local congregation? - Read Hebrews 13:7,17."

:icon8:


Yes Nightflyer I saw that in the November 15, 2009 Study Article, Page 14, Paragraph 5. I had the same reaction as you did when I was skimming through the article on Sunday when I picked up my mags. Article to be studied Jan 11-17, 2010. I had a feeling something was up when I read the title of the article: "TREASURE YOUR PLACE IN THE CONGREGATION. When I saw that I said "OUGHT OH" and I tore open the mag skimmed through the articles while sitting in the hall and saw that particular paragraph and turned green also.

Oh well, life in these last days are certainly not boring now are they;):rolleyes::lol:.

I just keep moving along, still going to meetings and doing the best that I can as has been suggested by several on board when I have felt down, and cannot really talk to others outside with the things we discuss. So I have been very encouraged by you all helping me to understand that it is critical to continue as Jehovah has said in telling others about Jehovah's pupose anyway that we can. If I don't mention Jehovah's Kingdom in some way and try to help others know about Jehovah's purpose it makes me feel real sick inside.


May Jehovah help us all HOLD ON TIGHT IN THESE TIMES. PHEW

IT SURE AIN'T EASY, BUT I MEAN TO ENDURE AND WILL CONTINUE

TO FIGHT TO KEEP MY SPIRITUALITY UP AND HELP OTHERS TO DO THE

SAME.

Best to you and your family Night Flyer:)

E & E

P.S. Very interesting Article on Page 18 Regarding Cheerful Giving From the Heart.

(Ways In Which Some Choose to Give) MY MY MY MY MY

[shikinah]

(3 John 9,10) We need to guard against developing a spirit of independence. By word or action, may we never challenge the channel of communication that Jehovah is using today.(Num 16:1-3) On the contrary, we should cherish our privilege to cooperate with the slave class. And should we not strive to be obedient and submission to those taking the lead in our local congregation? - Read Hebrews 13:7,17."

The wording sends shivers down my spine, its so condesending and like some dictatorship, its not even said in a nice way. obedient, submission, privilege, cooperate. Im not feeling no love here at all.:(

[Jahsdisciple]

(3 John 9,10) We need to guard against developing a spirit of independence. By word or action, may we never challenge the channel of communication that Jehovah is using today.(Num 16:1-3) On the contrary, we should cherish our privilege to cooperate with the slave class. And should we not strive to be obedient and submission to those taking the lead in our local congregation? - Read Hebrews 13:7,17."

The wording sends shivers down my spine, its so condesending and like some dictatorship, its not even said in a nice way. obedient, submission, privilege, cooperate. Im not feeling no love here at all.:(

This is just pain old emotional blackmail and makes me want to rebel ! The fact that this type of reasoning is happening so often makes me think they feel they are losing control. There must be rumouring in the ranks !

BUT from their point of view,they think they are the FDS. So,i think there is a measure of concern that we are rebeling against Jahs authority...but only from their point of view.

I am not rebeling against them,I am being loyal to the person Im dedicated to.

John WAS directed by Jah and everything he said had proof that he was directed by Jah. The modern day "fds" have no such standing and keep changing their views on prophecy,which John never did. They are being used however,but to say they are in the same class as John is wrong..even though they say they are the fds. If they were directed by Jah,would constant change be a sign of that.

However,I also respect the fact that they have sacrificed so much for us. This deserves respect,but dont emotionaly blackmail us to have it for you !

If I see new light on scripture,am i going to be loyal to Jah and look at it,or close my mind to it because of loyalty to someone who didnt write the bible ? My dedication is to Jah and no-one else.

So its a balancing act that goes on. On one hand Jah is using them and I have benefited from this for many decades. However,sometimes the children see things parents dont...and being an adult means i have the right to be such and think and reason for myself and not constantly be told I shouldnt reason from the scriptures for myself,esp if other like us here see the same points from the bible. Keeping as children in your mind doesnt valiadate your position as a "parent"

Its a tough balancing act !

[Utuna]

This is just pain old emotional blackmail and makes me want to rebel ! The fact that this type of reasoning is happening so often makes me think they feel they are losing control. There must be rumouring in the ranks !

BUT from their point of view,they think they are the FDS. So,i think there is a measure of concern that we are rebeling against Jahs authority...but only from their point of view.

I am not rebeling against them,I am being loyal to the person Im dedicated to.

John WAS directed by Jah and everything he said had proof that he was directed by Jah. The modern day "fds" have no such standing and keep changing their views on prophecy,which John never did. They are being used however,but to say they are in the same class as John is wrong..even though they say they are the fds. If they were directed by Jah,would constant change be a sign of that.

However,I also respect the fact that they have sacrificed so much for us. This deserves respect,but dont emotionaly blackmail us to have it for you !

If I see new light on scripture,am i going to be loyal to Jah and look at it,or close my mind to it because of loyalty to someone who didnt write the bible ? My dedication is to Jah and no-one else.

So its a balancing act that goes on. On one hand Jah is using them and I have benefited from this for many decades. However,sometimes the children see things parents dont...and being an adult means i have the right to be such and think and reason for myself and not constantly be told I shouldnt reason from the scriptures for myself,esp if other like us here see the same points from the bible. Keeping as children in your mind doesnt valiadate your position as a "parent"

Its a tough balancing act !

Hi JD,

Very wise words indeed from Aussie....

Thanks again! ;)

---------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[uglyandthin]

Hi All:

Sorry to beat a dead horse but they lay claim to being the FDS when thier history proves they are instead the UIS. The unfaithful and indiscrete slut.
You don't believe me, just ask Jesus, he's the one they were unfaithful to when they spiritually fornicated with the U.N. and have not looked out for the welfare of her children, especially the abuse victims in the congregations. Unfortunately it's the kids that will suffer, as always.

20 "‘Nevertheless, I do hold [this] against you, that you tolerate that woman Jez´e·bel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and misleads my slaves to commit fornication and to eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent, but she is not willing to repent of her fornication. 22 Look! I am about to throw her into a sickbed, and those committing adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. 23 And her children I will kill with deadly plague, so that all the congregations will know that I am he who searches the kidneys and hearts, and I will give to YOU individually according to YOUR deeds.

Of course, the WT applies this scripture to unruly "sisters" in the congregations, but no self respecting bible student could ever conclude that. It is not the "sisters", unruly or faithful who "teach" in the congregations, nor are the "sisters" responsible for misleading the congregations to thier downfall into an idolutrous worship of the GB and the organization. Get out of her my people, unless you wish to share in her plagues. The WT has just become a smaller version of the Catholic Church that overtook the first century Christians. They are now a harlot church.

I certainly no longer follow her lead. Although I miss dearly my friends and loved ones in the congregations, so far, they have followed her lead in shunning me because I would not accept thier unfaithful and grossly disrespectful behavior towards thier only Lord and Master, Jesus. To my knowledge I have not been unfaithful to Jesus, but apparently faithfulness to the UIS is more important to the WT. If the time is not now for you to take your leave, have your "go bags" ready, not for Armageddon or the Great Tribulation but for when you hear the voice of the Lord calling you out of this harlot who at one time was so beautiful and faithful (if not perfect).

Interestingly the name Jezebel means "Where is the Lofty One"? but another word that would be appropriate in definition for Lofty is Haughty. They are indeed that, and this piece of this article goes a long way to proving that. At any rate, I hope most in the WT hear Jesus voice and there is enough time for them to get out when that time comes.


uglyandthin

[Jinnvisible]

This is from the November 09 issue:


"The spirit that now operates in the sons of disobedience" is so widespread that it is like the air we breathe. (Eph. 2:2)

That’s true generally.

The Ephesians scripture does relate to people generally ignoring God’s word.


That spirit can cause us to think that we do not need guidance from Jehovah's organization.

The text of the Ephesians scripture regarding the spirit of disobedience is primarily focused on the mistreatment of food and sex, the excess of all the things that come naturally to humans and that humans actually need to survive and perpetuate. More specifically the mistreatment of those things.

Of course the Watchtower organization and congregational arrangement can help with guidance for that, yet an individual person needs to train and rely on their conscience also, to attain spiritual maturity.


Surely we do not want to be like Diotrephes, who would not 'receive anything from the apostle John with respect.' (3 John 9,10)

Diotrephes who showed certain specific traits such as enjoying being `the big cheese` among worshippers and throwing people unnecessarily out of the cong. Traits in fact that were identified similarly in the Pharisees who did the same things.

In fact if Diotrephes had his own example to refer to he could even accuse John of being like Diotrephes for wishing to go over his head muscling in on his position.


We need to guard against developing a spirit of independence.

Is it possible to develop a spiritually mature outlook without being able to mentally consider situations and issues in the individual arena of thought?

The bible states that every person must carry their own load. It states that each ones works will be tested. The bible states that a person must reach spiritual maturity having a trained conscience. That one conscience should not rule over another. That a person should themselves keep testing themselves in order to ascertain whether they are remaining in the faith.

It would therefore seem fair to say a worshiper should not be dependant on another to carry their load. Should not be dependant on another’s conscience. Should not be dependant on another to make sure of their faith. Should not be dependant upon others to do their good works.

In essence that a worshipper must do these things independently.

The proverbs says the inexperienced puts faith in every word yet the experienced is considering his steps.


By word or action, may we never challenge the channel of communication that Jehovah is using today.(Num 16:1-3)

Its interesting to consider exactly what this means to `challenge`. For instance Christ was asked challenging questions from both friends and foes and engaged with them.

From another point of view none of Christ’s friends actually challenged him in a contest for leadership. Neither actually did Christ challenge the sect of the Pharisees in the sense that he just left them alone and let them get on with their process he didn’t attempt to usurp their position.

From yet another point of view it must be said that although Christ didn`t really attempt to usurp the pharisees, simply speaking the truth powerfully was considered by them enough of a challenge to thier authority to seek to have him killed.

Speaking the truth powerfully can therefore sometimes be considered `a challenge` by a misguided authoritarian body. Would that be an acceptable challenge ?


On the contrary, we should cherish our privilege to cooperate with the slave class.

This statement is used in juxtaposition to the previous one. What needs to be ascertained in order to negate possibilities of presumption is whether Jehovah agreed in his covenant to only operate his slave class through a legal corporate mechanism set in place under the constitution of the U.S.A.

For instance Moses asked for a group of men to separate themselves, yet when other men began to prophesy independently from the group Moses set apart, he did not grow jealous nor angry or claim that his mechanism was the only valid channel.


And should we not strive to be obedient and submission to those taking the lead in our local congregation? - Read Hebrews 13:7,17."

The above is a question related to the book of Hebrews.

The correct answer to the question is yes. Strive to be obedient to those taking the lead in the local congregation. Yet also to keep in mind that your local congregation is unlikely to have the same kind of leadership as where Paul wrote that counsel. Your local congregation is unlikely to have as strong a leadership as the Hebrew congregation in Jerusalem that Paul was writing to. That congregation was led by Apostles. It had more apostles than any other congregation and also Christ’s earthly family members. They were inspired prophets and miracle workers. Less concerned about beards ties and hand gestures whilst speaking than your local congregation elders.

Exactly why this counsel to follow leaders, used so much, comes from the book of Hebrews.

[Nightflyer]

By word or action, may we never challenge the channel of communication that Jehovah is using today.
:icon8:

I think this is the most disturbing sentence. "By word or action". When Jws who now have doubts about something Wt teaches read this, they became even more fearful to talk to anyone about their doubts. They are forced to stay silent. And in time this kind of suppression of thought often leads to emotional and mental problems in individuals.

Anyway this kind of fear might be usual in North Korea and similar despotic countries, where the so called Big Brother is always watching what people say and do - but there should not such fear in a truly loving, christian congregation. Jesus said "you all are brothers" - and yet someone is acting like a tyrannical big brother. And that someone is the foretold man of lawlessness who has lifted himself up over everyone like the Bible foretold would happen.

[Nightflyer]

Notice also how cleverly the term "slave class" is used here. It gives the reader the impression that there really is some relatively big class of brothers who are leading the work. But in reality, there are just nine men. And they are not interested in what their thousands of anointed brothers might think of any spiritual or doctrinal matters.

[barry]

I think this is the most disturbing sentence. "By word or action". When Jws who now have doubts about something Wt teaches read this, they became even more fearful to talk to anyone about their doubts. They are forced to stay silent. And in time this kind of suppression of thought often leads to emotional and mental problems in individuals.

This is so true.
I was thinking of talking about these issus to my stepfather (elder). Since a couple of months my brother, who is not baptized yet, started asking questions on these things to me. I showed him some articles of Robert and Perimeno.
Based on what he read, he started asking some questions to my stepfather, who is rather open minded. He is willing to help him and provide answers from the WT to the issues we all have here.
Since my stepfather was really open minded on these things, I wanted to tell him about my concerns, in support of my brother's questions.
But from the moment my brother showed an article of Robert to my stepfather, he completely changed. He did not want to read anything about it, because it was really 'apostate'. So, based on that, I decided not to tell him anything about my issues.
My brother can easily continue his questions, since he's not yet baptized, but not in the form of articles from apostates. He can formulate a certain reasoning on eg 1914 and than my stepfather wants to answer him on this.

So this shows how afraid people really are to 'displease' Jehovah by reading articles which are declared 'apostate' by the FDS.

regards,
Barry

[shikinah]

This is all looking very serious, there's a sound of desperation in the Watchtowers quotes. I think they know alot more than they choose to disclose about the coming downfall of the USA and possibly break up of congregations and loss of property etc. Everything i have been reading lately points to Russia, India and China taking over the control of America. Where living in fearsome times and need to be prepared for some major changes.

Jah Bless
Shikinah

[arimatthewdavies]

first i am r.o.f l. about someones f.i.s.thats disfellowshiped 7 times,and then burned at stake! i read mine last night,im gona give my two pennys. with a qustion. there are 2 indepenant cells in a liveing body.. the first roams freely with a vengence to heal an infection[antibody] the second clumps togeather until their is no room for healthy cells and brings death.[cancer] now what group of cells are you part of? kinda of scary huh?.

[TheMdC]

I can't recall for sure when it was or whether it was due to a letter from the society or what but within the last year or two didn't the local congregations (in the US Branch at least) turn over ownership of their Kingdom Halls and property to the WTS? Anyone recall anything like that or am I misremembering something?

[Desert Blossom]

This is from the November 09 issue:

"The spirit that now operates in the sons of disobedience" is so widespread that it is like the air we breathe. (Eph. 2:2) That spirit can cause us to think that we do not need guidance from Jehovah's organization. Surely we do not want to be like Diotrephes, who would not 'receive anything from the apostle John with respect.' (3 John 9,10) We need to guard against developing a spirit of independence. By word or action, may we never challenge the channel of communication that Jehovah is using today.(Num 16:1-3) On the contrary, we should cherish our privilege to cooperate with the slave class. And should we not strive to be obedient and submission to those taking the lead in our local congregation? - Read Hebrews 13:7,17."

:icon8:

Maybe somewhere else in the article they qualify which slave they are talking about by using the term "faithful and discreet", but I find it curious that in the paragraph you quoted that they simply say "slave class."

It's funny you should post this right now because I have individual letters for the GB set to be mailed, as soon as I refill the ink cartridge on my printer. I got halfway through printing out the letters when my ink well ran dry. I came to the conclusion that it was imperative for me to approach the GB in the spirit of Matt. 18:15. I related my own experiences in searching out the truth, and had no need of quoting any so-called "apostate" material, just info I figured out on my own from studying the Bible and comparing what the Bible teaches with what the GB teaches. I'm supplying them with my email address and will let you all know if any of them respond.

It was Robert King's open letter to the GB over the spiritual adultery issue that got me thinking about how important it is for each one of us, individually, to approach the GB with our discoveries and concerns, because that is what Jesus outlined as the way to handle problems that arise in the congregation. I think it's only fair to confront them directly, whether they respond to my letter or not is up to them.

(Matthew 18:15-17) . . .“Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. 17 If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.

[SWORDOFJAH]

I think we should be thankful for Jehovah's organization. Our brothers have helped us how to do the Sovereign Lord’s will.
We can be grateful that Jehovah’s organization grants us much assistance in our spiritual path. Examples:

We have a constant flow of information through the Watchtower and Awake! magazines. We have numerous books and brochures covering a wide range of Bible topics.

We can work at strengthening the bond of brotherly love, while carefully observing theocratic order and cooperating with those taking the lead.—1 Thessalonians 4:3-8; 5:12, 13.

[imjustaskin]

Did anyone else note in that same WT on pg 6, par 19, about what not to do during prayer?

In my KH alot of times people in the same row will hold hands even if not related. I guess they are saying don't. Also about marriage mates not "embracing" during prayer, but holding hands is ok for them? What does that mean exactly? No arms around the waist??

I absolutely grit my teeth when they try to regulate every minutae of behavior. ESPECIALLY having to do with prayer.

[TheMdC]

I didn't until now. :(


19 When we are being represented in public prayer, we need to display reverential "fear of God." (1 Pet 2:17) There may be a proper time and place for some actions that would be inappropriate at a Christian meeting. (Eccl 3:1) For instance, suppose someone sought to have all in a group link arms or hold hands during prayer. This might offend or distract some, including visitors who do not share our beliefs. Some marriage mates might discreetly hold hands, but if they embraced each other during public prayer, those who got a glimpse of such conduct might be stumbled. They might think or get the impression that the couple was focusing on their romantic relationship instead of reverence for Jehovah. Out of deep respect for him, let us therefore "do all things for God's glory" and avoid conduct that could distract, shock or stumble anyone. - 1 Cor 10:31,32; 2 Cor 6:3.

This may be the very last straw for me. I note the conspicuous absence of counsel on praying with one's eyes closed or on 1Peter 4:15 which lumps busybodying into other people's affairs in with murder and stealing. If I get called in for holding my wife during prayers at the meeting, I'm going to demand that the person who turned me in get brought before a committee for being a busybody into my affairs.

I feel like this is going to be a big test for a lot of people, assuming there is still a WTS and Kingdom Hall by next January.

[James]

Just a reminder, those not privy to the hard-copy mags can have their ears tickled here. Treasure Your Place in the Congregation (January11-17) (http://www.jw.org/index.html?option=QrYQZRQVNZNT)

It currently shows the December issue, go to the November issue in the drop down box.



agape,
James

[Eyes & Ears]

I didn't until now. :(



This may be the very last straw for me. I note the conspicuous absence of counsel on praying with one's eyes closed or on 1Peter 4:15 which lumps busybodying into other people's affairs in with murder and stealing. If I get called in for holding my wife during prayers at the meeting, I'm going to demand that the person who turned me in get brought before a committee for being a busybody into my affairs.

I feel like this is going to be a big test for a lot of people, assuming there is still a WTS and Kingdom Hall by next January.

************************************************** ****

TMDC, I thought very similar to your expression that I highlighted and enlarged.


(In my opinion) Here we are living in very critical and challenging times, and they are concerned about couples who are married embracing (and I know this has to be arm or hand around their mate) each other during a prayer!!! Oh for goodness sakes, come on now. (IMO) this is SICK, SICK SICK. Someone has a warped sick twisted way of looking at things. Where is this coming from and why? I mean really did someone actually write in about this and make an issue of it? Do you all think that might be it? I cannot even imagine a discussion about this in a Governing Body Meeting. It is waaaaaaay beyond my comprehension.

This is just as bad as one of the elders making a comment tonight at TMS that we have learned so much such as what we have learned recently about the the anointed that are now in heaven. All I did was say to myself, hmmm that is not what it says in 1Thess chapter 4. But hey who am I, I'm just a publisher. What do I know.

Sorry didn't mean to get off track. Guess we can see the
struggle not only that some of us are having (myself included) in dealing with the things Jehovah says would take placle in his household. But also, the wheat and the weeds struggling amongst themselves up at headquarters. I thank Jehovah that he is allowing us to see and understand a great deal that we did not in the past.

I may be totally off on this one, but I had my own thoughts when it was announced that there would be a WT for us and a WT for the Public. My eyebrows lifted way over top of my forehead on that announcment.

Good night, I am always wired up after TMS. I never can go to sleep until late.:(

E & E

[The Way]

I didn't until now. :(

This may be the very last straw for me. I note the conspicuous absence of counsel on praying with one's eyes closed or on 1Peter 4:15 which lumps busybodying into other people's affairs in with murder and stealing. If I get called in for holding my wife during prayers at the meeting, I'm going to demand that the person who turned me in get brought before a committee for being a busybody into my affairs.

I feel like this is going to be a big test for a lot of people, assuming there is still a WTS and Kingdom Hall by next January.

I guess the same rule makers "holding hands is allowed; embracing is not allowed" would heavily frown upon the behaviour of king David ;), just like Saul's daughter Michal did:

(2 Samuel 6:14-23) And David was dancing around before Jehovah with all his power, all the while David being girded with an eph′od of linen. 15 And David and all the house of Israel were bringing up the ark of Jehovah with joyful shouting and sound of horn. 16 And it occurred that when the ark of Jehovah came into the City of David, Mi′chal, Saul’s daughter, herself looked down through the window and got to see King David leaping and dancing around before Jehovah; and she began to despise him in her heart. 17 So they brought the ark of Jehovah in and set it in its place inside the tent that David had pitched for it; after which David offered up burnt sacrifices and communion sacrifices before Jehovah. 18 When David was finished with offering up the burnt sacrifices and the communion sacrifices, he then blessed the people in the name of Jehovah of armies. 19 Further, he apportioned to all the people, to the whole crowd of Israel, man as well as woman, to each one a ring-shaped cake of bread and a date cake and a raisin cake, after which all the people went each to his own house. 20 David now returned to bless his own household, and Mi′chal, Saul’s daughter, came on out to meet David and then said: “How glorious the king of Israel made himself today when he uncovered himself today to the eyes of the slave girls of his servants, just as one of the empty-headed men uncovers himself outright!” 21 At this David said to Mi′chal: “It was before Jehovah, who chose me rather than your father and all his household to put me in command as leader over Jehovah’s people Israel, and I will celebrate before Jehovah. 22 And I will make myself even more lightly esteemed than this, and I will become low in my eyes; and with the slave girls whom you mentioned, with them I am determined to glorify myself.” 23 So, as regards Mi′chal, Saul’s daughter, she came to have no child down to the day of her death.

[TheMdC]

I've been thinking further about the "testing" aspect of this "no hugging" doctrine and I strongly suspect that it IS an intentional test devised by the WT to weed out the rebels in their midst. They've reinforced their authority multiple times this year, way more than usual in the past, and they want to see just how far they can go. They want to know just how many JWs are thinking and reasoning individuals and how many are sheeple.

As the JBK book brings out so clearly, the WT has the interpretation of the separation of wheat and weeds wrong. The wheat separates from the bunch first and then what remains are weeds to be burned and destroyed (not the other way around). So there is going to be a tipping point, a catalyst, a last straw, that drives the remaining wheat out before the weeds are punished by Jehovah.

It's got me thinking. . .

[Eyes & Ears]

I've been thinking further about the "testing" aspect of this "no hugging" doctrine and I strongly suspect that it IS an intentional test devised by the WT to weed out the rebels in their midst. They've reinforced their authority multiple times this year, way more than usual in the past, and they want to see just how far they can go. They want to know just how many JWs are thinking and reasoning individuals and how many are sheeple.

As the JBK book brings out so clearly, the WT has the interpretation of the separation of wheat and weeds wrong. The wheat separates from the bunch first and then what remains are weeds to be burned and destroyed (not the other way around). So there is going to be a tipping point, a catalyst, a last straw, that drives the remaining wheat out before the weeds are punished by Jehovah.

It's got me thinking. . .


Thanks for sharing TMDC, food for thought.

E & E

[Jeshurun]

Eternal destruction for hugging. Nice. Makes you want to cuddle up to Jehovah, doesn't it?

They just continue to redefine the word Pharisee, don't they?

The New World Order cronies at the top of the pyramid (the same guys who signed the UN deal) are running this religion as a prototype to test just how far they can achieve android-like obedience. So rather than treating them like "sheeple", it's more like laboratory rats.

What they do has the opposite effect of what they think they are trying to do. Because of the absurdity of the "rules", many JW's lead double lives and are extremely rebellious outside the Kingdom Hall. I have seen it with my own eyes and heard it with my own ears for almost 40 years.

Personally, if I was still going to meetings, and read that garbage in the Watchtower, I would write up my letter of disassociation right on the spot.

Love,
Jesh

[shikinah]

I guess the same rule makers "holding hands is allowed; embracing is not allowed" would heavily frown upon the behaviour of king David ;), just like Saul's daughter Michal did:

(2 Samuel 6:14-23) And David was dancing around before Jehovah with all his power, all the while David being girded with an eph′od of linen. 15 And David and all the house of Israel were bringing up the ark of Jehovah with joyful shouting and sound of horn. 16 And it occurred that when the ark of Jehovah came into the City of David, Mi′chal, Saul’s daughter, herself looked down through the window and got to see King David leaping and dancing around before Jehovah; and she began to despise him in her heart. 17 So they brought the ark of Jehovah in and set it in its place inside the tent that David had pitched for it; after which David offered up burnt sacrifices and communion sacrifices before Jehovah. 18 When David was finished with offering up the burnt sacrifices and the communion sacrifices, he then blessed the people in the name of Jehovah of armies. 19 Further, he apportioned to all the people, to the whole crowd of Israel, man as well as woman, to each one a ring-shaped cake of bread and a date cake and a raisin cake, after which all the people went each to his own house. 20 David now returned to bless his own household, and Mi′chal, Saul’s daughter, came on out to meet David and then said: “How glorious the king of Israel made himself today when he uncovered himself today to the eyes of the slave girls of his servants, just as one of the empty-headed men uncovers himself outright!” 21 At this David said to Mi′chal: “It was before Jehovah, who chose me rather than your father and all his household to put me in command as leader over Jehovah’s people Israel, and I will celebrate before Jehovah. 22 And I will make myself even more lightly esteemed than this, and I will become low in my eyes; and with the slave girls whom you mentioned, with them I am determined to glorify myself.” 23 So, as regards Mi′chal, Saul’s daughter, she came to have no child down to the day of her death.



Thank you, this was very eye opening, we should be able to express our praise and love for Jehovah without being told it has to be in a uniformed orderly way. Its how the heart is at the time of worship which is important.

[imjustaskin]

I didn't until now. :(



This may be the very last straw for me. I note the conspicuous absence of counsel on praying with one's eyes closed or on 1Peter 4:15 which lumps busybodying into other people's affairs in with murder and stealing. If I get called in for holding my wife during prayers at the meeting, I'm going to demand that the person who turned me in get brought before a committee for being a busybody into my affairs.

I feel like this is going to be a big test for a lot of people, assuming there is still a WTS and Kingdom Hall by next January.

How did you copy and quote the WT? I only have mine in print since it's recent.

[imjustaskin]

Ironic, isn't it, with all the things going on in the congregations, the WTS manages to be concerned with TOO MUCH love and affection being shown?

Yeah, THAT's the problem...

[TheMdC]

How did you copy and quote the WT? I only have mine in print since it's recent.
I did a google and found the quoted paragraph elsewhere on the Internet.

Did anyone happen to take a good look at the photograph that accompanies the article? Doesn't look like a very joyful place to be.

This is REALLY bothering me. . .

[The Way]

http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab314/the_way_2009/public-prayers.png

On the illustration in this study article several people don't even bow their heads. One sister is standing with her arms crossed. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I find it showing a minimum of respect to bow the head and yes, even to hold one's hands together during prayer, although the latter may be influenced by culture and someone's upbringing.

The Watchtower 7/15 1987 p. 14 par. 18 stated:
"To help us to get more into the mood of prayer and make our prayers more meaningful, it is good to change our physical position. For public prayers, we naturally bow our heads."

Oh, and wouldn't it be a delightful sight for our God to see husbands and wives closely united in worship, respectfully bowing their heads slightly turned to each other during prayer, while tenderly putting an arm around their spouse's waist or shoulder? The threefold cord you know... SHOCKING indeed! :whisper.sml:

[TheMdC]

About the stumbling business. Just because someone is stumbled by one's words or actions doesn't mean that one's words or actions were cause for stumbling. Some responsibility, in fact MOST responsibility, has to fall on the stumbler, especially in nitpicky little things like embracing one's spouse, having facial hair, or any number of other idiotic non-scriptural, man-made rules they come up with.

Peter's counsel was clear: Mind your own business!. If people would just do that, then nothing anyone else could do would be stumbling to them.

[James]

Well, let me ink this thread in my calendar so, when the study comes up in January, I won't have to scan and post. I'll just provide the link. LOL

And, The Way, are you trying to best me one in the nitpicking dept?

An elder I studied with years ago told me he would get dizzy and lose his balance if he bowed his head with his eyes closed. He also put his arm around his wife's waist, almost as if he was setting an example for the congregation to follow.





On the illustration in this study article several people don't even bow their heads. One sister is standing with her arms crossed. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I find it showing a minimum of respect to bow the head and yes, even to hold one's hands together during prayer, although the latter may be influenced by culture and someone's upbringing.

The Watchtower 7/15 1987 p. 14 par. 18 stated:
"To help us to get more into the mood of prayer and make our prayers more meaningful, it is good to change our physical position. For public prayers, we naturally bow our heads."



I actually think it is more respectful to humble oneself before Jehovah on our knees as these scriptures attest to.


(Luke 22:41) And he himself drew away from them about a stone’s throw, and bent his knees and began to pray,

(1 Kings 8:54) And it came about that, as soon as Sol′o·mon finished praying to Jehovah with all this prayer and request for favor, he rose up from before the altar of Jehovah, from bending down upon his knees with his palms spread out to the heavens;

(Acts 9:40) But Peter put everybody outside and, bending his knees, he prayed, and, turning to the body, he said: “Tab′i·tha, rise!” She opened her eyes and, as she caught sight of Peter, she sat up.

(Acts 20:36) And when he had said these things, he kneeled down with all of them and prayed.

(Acts 21:5) So when we had completed the days, we went forth and started on our way; but they all, together with the women and children, conducted us as far as outside the city. And kneeling down on the beach we had prayer

(Ephesians 3:14) On account of this I bend my knees to the Father,


agape,
James

[Eyes & Ears]

I did a google and found the quoted paragraph elsewhere on the Internet.

Did anyone happen to take a good look at the photograph that accompanies the article? Doesn't look like a very joyful place to be.

This is REALLY bothering me. . .

************************************************** ****
When I woke up this morning, this was on my mind more so than the banking issue I was experiencing.

My thought was why does it seem they are squashing closeness/togetherness (my perception/reading of it) To hold someone's hands during a prayer or to hold your mate during prayer is such a non-issue, why are they making it an issue and why now? These and many other thoughts were rushing through my mind Why?? Do they really believe that none of us are paying attention to these little subtle suggestions/changes or whatever they are.

They also keep saying "thank the slave", slave this and slave that, slave, slave, slave at every single meeting I have attended this past year. First it seemed to be subtle, but now it is over and over and over and much more frequent. Now this article with that picture and it does not look good to me at all.

Well, these are just some of the things running through my little pea brain. :(:wacko:

E & E

[Eyes & Ears]

Eternal destruction for hugging. Nice. Makes you want to cuddle up to Jehovah, doesn't it?

They just continue to redefine the word Pharisee, don't they?

The New World Order cronies at the top of the pyramid (the same guys who signed the UN deal) are running this religion as a prototype to test just how far they can achieve android-like obedience. So rather than treating them like "sheeple", it's more like laboratory rats.

What they do has the opposite effect of what they think they are trying to do. Because of the absurdity of the "rules", many JW's lead double lives and are extremely rebellious outside the Kingdom Hall. I have seen it with my own eyes and heard it with my own ears for almost 40 years.

Personally, if I was still going to meetings, and read that garbage in the Watchtower, I would write up my letter of disassociation right on the spot.

Love,
Jesh


Hi Jesh,

What and miss out on all the other stuff going on iniside, not me, I'm staying just a little while longer and then NO MORE.:D

Take care Jesh, just messing with ya.:p

E & E

[Juan23]

But from the moment my brother showed an article of Robert to my stepfather, he completely changed. He did not want to read anything about it, because it was really 'apostate'. So, based on that, I decided not to tell him anything about my issues.

So true. Somebody who may seem so reasonable may not be.

Mat 10:16 ... prove yourselves cautious as serpents and yet innocent as doves.

Mic 7:5 Do not put YOUR faith in a companion. Do not put YOUR trust in a confidential friend. From her who is lying in your bosom guard the openings of your mouth.

[Anthony]

Why is it that all are aware and agree to what Robert has brought out from the scriptures as to the wrong doing of the WTS and how the evil slave is still a part of the house hold and it’s going to continue to be that way until Jesus comes and sets things straight, and yet there’s complaining and disbelief over the things they are doing.

It’s like many want them to straighten up and do everything right on there own, making the prophesies about them wrong.

Who gives a rats a.. to what they do. It is a man made org and the ones in charge can run it how they like. And if people want to be a part of it because they are all blind stupid idiots, let them. And those who don’t like how things are done then don’t be a part of it.

Actually what’s really crazy is the people that continue to be part of it and realize what’s going on compared to the ones that are blind to the happens in the WTS and are part of it.

Day after day the daily text is posted here and the weekly WT study. What a hold the GB has on so many! Why not just go to the meetings?

Why can’t everybody just focus on what the next prophecy is to unfold?

Please everyone do yourselves a favor and take the high road and not respond to this. Just let it go. I know I am this and that and I am wrong and you are all right. And I know there are going to be those that just are itching to respond and just can’t let it go. So be it. (I’m curious as to or will be the first to respond.)

[Gabriel]

"JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES"

The more I think about that title, the more its beginning to mean to me. We are WITNESSES to all the things that is taking place and that will take place in the near future. Theres a reason why Jehovah hasnt brought this world to its end at this point and im so glad that he hasnt. He is giving us the opportunity to see how faith and trust in men brings about only misery, dissappointment, and slavery. Im not talking about men in the world only, im talking about ALL MEN even within his own people.

Jehovah is showing us...REALLY SHOWING US the reason as to why he will bring his own house into judgement and the reason why it needs to be cleansed. Cant you all see that? Dont leave, STAY and witness ALL the turmoil within God's house. Witness how those in the upper ranks of the society continues to transform themselves into idols and continue to burden us with their unreasonableness.

Matthew 15:7-14 "You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 (http://bible.cc/matthew/15-8.htm)“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 (http://bible.cc/matthew/15-9.htm)They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.
10 (http://bible.cc/matthew/15-10.htm)Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11 (http://bible.cc/matthew/15-11.htm)What goes into a man’s mouth does not make him ‘unclean,’ but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him ‘unclean.’
12 (http://bible.cc/matthew/15-12.htm)Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”
13 (http://bible.cc/matthew/15-13.htm)He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14 (http://bible.cc/matthew/15-14.htm)Leave them; they are blind guides."

All that did not come from God will be uprooted, no matter how deep Satan plants his seeds amoung God's people. We are under attack and its up to each one of us to lean upon Jehovah during this time. Leaving at this point is not the answer. Let the meaning in the title JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES mean just that, Witness all the things that will soon take place. I intend on witnessesing the continued corruption of God's house by these ungodly men and im eager to see how Jehovah will handle the issue and so are the angels as well.

I feel that no matter how bad it hurts, its absolutely vital that we remain and OBSERVE all the happenings within God's house. I dont want to miss a second of it, its serving a purpose. When we make it into the new system NEVER EVER AGAIN will we elevate any man or ANYONE for that matter above Jehovah and his Christ because we would have been eye witnesses personally of the misery and slavery that it brought about.

When the watchtower falls many are wondering how they will be able to reach out to our brothers and sisters and help them through the confusion. WE WONT HAVE TO! Jehovah is allowing the society to become rotten to the bone before the eyes of all his people. When the watchtower falls ALL WILL KNOW WHY! Isnt Jehovah wonderful!?! He is already...even as we speak, allowing all to witness this corruption. When the towers fall its not going to be to hard to understand why. I think Jehovah is going to let it get so bad that all within the congregations will be beging for him to take action. It will be then at this point that we will hear the call to get out of her.

The Watchtower is changing and before long she wont even be recognizable as she continues to come up with more outragous obsurdities. I've written a post a while ago entiteld "Troubled Waters". We're begining to see just how troubled they really are.

So until then. Set, be silent and WITNESS the corruption of God's house and how he himself will clean it up. Its going to be a awesome sight to see and Im not going to miss any of it

[shikinah]

After posting the video from a female Christian Soldier, it now all makes sense. Were being taught to de-sensitize show little emotion, because they already know whats coming. That when our loved ones are taken from us for not obeying laws to take vaccinations or other requirements, we wont get too emotional and make a scene. We will just comply with what ever rules, orders or actions which are given.
This is what NGO's and church clergy were taught at the UN, and they must quote Romans 13. We must rely totally on Jehovah and build our faith to the max as where going to need it.

[Jahsdisciple]

"JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES"

The more I think about that title, the more its beginning to mean to me. We are WITNESSES to all the things that is taking place and that will take place in the near future. Theres a reason why Jehovah hasnt brought this world to its end at this point and im so glad that he hasnt. He is giving us the opportunity to see how faith and trust in men brings about only misery, dissappointment, and slavery. Im not talking about men in the world only, im talking about ALL MEN even within his own people.

Jehovah is showing us...REALLY SHOWING US the reason as to why he will bring his own house into judgement and the reason why it needs to be cleansed. Cant you all see that? Dont leave, STAY and witness ALL the turmoil within God's house. Witness how those in the upper ranks of the society continues to transform themselves into idols and continue to burden us with their unreasonableness.

Matthew 15:7-14 "You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 (http://bible.cc/matthew/15-8.htm)“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9 (http://bible.cc/matthew/15-9.htm)They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.
10 (http://bible.cc/matthew/15-10.htm)Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11 (http://bible.cc/matthew/15-11.htm)What goes into a man’s mouth does not make him ‘unclean,’ but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him ‘unclean.’
12 (http://bible.cc/matthew/15-12.htm)Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”
13 (http://bible.cc/matthew/15-13.htm)He replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14 (http://bible.cc/matthew/15-14.htm)Leave them; they are blind guides."

All that did not come from God will be uprooted, no matter how deep Satan plants his seeds amoung God's people. We are under attack and its up to each one of us to lean upon Jehovah during this time. Leaving at this point is not the answer. Let the meaning in the title JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES mean just that, Witness all the things that will soon take place. I intend on witnessesing the continued corruption of God's house by these ungodly men and im eager to see how Jehovah will handle the issue and so are the angels as well.

I feel that no matter how bad it hurts, its absolutely vital that we remain and OBSERVE all the happenings within God's house. I dont want to miss a second of it, its serving a purpose. When we make it into the new system NEVER EVER AGAIN will we elevate any man or ANYONE for that matter above Jehovah and his Christ because we would have been eye witnesses personally of the misery and slavery that it brought about.

When the watchtower falls many are wondering how they will be able to reach out to our brothers and sisters and help them through the confusion. WE WONT HAVE TO! Jehovah is allowing the society to become rotten to the bone before the eyes of all his people. When the watchtower falls ALL WILL KNOW WHY! Isnt Jehovah wonderful!?! He is already...even as we speak, allowing all to witness this corruption. When the towers fall its not going to be to hard to understand why. I think Jehovah is going to let it get so bad that all within the congregations will be beging for him to take action. It will be then at this point that we will hear the call to get out of her.

The Watchtower is changing and before long she wont even be recognizable as she continues to come up with more outragous obsurdities. I've written a post a while ago entiteld "Troubled Waters". We're begining to see just how troubled they really are.

So until then. Set, be silent and WITNESS the corruption of God's house and how he himself will clean it up. Its going to be a awesome sight to see and Im not going to miss any of it

Gabriel,
I think you are right as to being witnesses of the bad that goes on...and the attempts at utter control. It makes my blood boil. Mind your dang business ! If i want to hold someones hand during a prayer,thats got nothing to with anyone. Its between me and Jehovah.

However,i dont think its happening because its a corrupt organisation. Jah IS using them. We are witnessing what happens when BLIND people dont know any better...when they want the best for us,but have no conception about how to make this happen.

Its like control freek parents who thinks their child will never grow up,or never gives them the chance to. A law for this...a law for that...a law for everything !!

This is what this type of rubbish is a sign of..not being a sign of satan being there..although he sure takes advantage of it so that people like us get upset by it.

Its just a sign of blindness and not knowing how to let people grow up..its just beyond them ! And stuff like this is a typical example of this mindset they have.

[Gabriel]

"i dont think its happening because its a corrupt organisation. Jah IS using them."

Many would debate that. Personally I believe that we are indeed God's people but his spirit is being withdrawn as the badness and Idolization of men becomes more and more prevelent. Its just like with the nation of Isreal, Jehovah totally withdrew his spirit from them and abandoned them to their enemies until Jeruselum was ultimately destroied by the Romans.

Jehovah doesnt play. He does not tolerate Idolatry of any sort and he do not tolerate those who skins his sheep. Again, this organization is changing and its not for the better. But just as Anthony said, Jehovah had already told us in advance what would happen. Trying to sugar coat things will not slow down or stop God's words spoken through Jesus from being forfilled. But when everthing spoken regarding God's people completely unfolds, its going to be quite entertaining to see those who are still supporters of the WTS try to use acrobatic reasonings trying to convience those of use who can see things for what they are, that all is good and well and theres no need to be overly critical. Im sure at that time the society will have a book out on how to reason with those who have left. Instead of it being called "Reasoning from the scriptures" it'll be called "Reasoning from the Faithful and descrete slave"

[SlaveForJah]

Ironic, isn't it, with all the things going on in the congregations, the WTS manages to be concerned with TOO MUCH love and affection being shown?

Yeah, THAT's the problem...

That's just what I was thinking, IJA.


"1 But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away." - 2Timothy 3:1-5


"11 And many false prophets will arise and mislead many; 12 and because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off." - Matthew 24:11, 12


Not only would many arise and promote lawlessness (the abandonment of Christ's Law, the Law of Love, the Law that is inscribed on the heart, which requires us to circumcise the heart), but their own lack of natural affection would not be sufficient for them. Their inability to 'love goodness' would cause them to legislate (man's law, the law of tradition, that which invalidates the Word of God, that which makes Christ useless to us, which causes us to remain in our sin) a sacrifice of our own "natural affection" to the Idol and make it a necessity and prerequisite to any who desire to 'worship in this mountain.'

Thanks be to Jehovah God Almighty that we can 'worship neither in this mountain nor in Mt. Gerazim', but are able to approach our Father in "spirit and truth".

All the signs seem pretty clear, in my opinion. The 'branches are growing tender and putting forth leaves'. My deliverance is near.


Agape

SlaveForJah

[Jahsdisciple]

[QUOTE=Gabriel;38391
its going to be quite entertaining to see those who are still supporters of the WTS try to use acrobatic reasonings trying to convience those of use who can see things for what they are, that all is good and well and theres no need to be overly critical. [/QUOTE]

" acrobatic reasonings "
Its easy to be black and white,there is no discernment needed.

If a person admits there are problems but also sees the good,thats a balanced view..its not trying to 'reason away' the bad...you just dont want to see the point being made. It explains why its there...and its obvious you want to condemn without seeing the rest of what goes on in JWs.

"If you want to be judged fairly by Jehovah,then stop sinning and remove your blindness"... is that a reasonable thing to say ? If you cant do that yourself,then stop expecting this of others.

[The Way]

Well, let me ink this thread in my calendar so, when the study comes up in January, I won't have to scan and post. I'll just provide the link. LOL

And, The Way, are you trying to best me one in the nitpicking dept?

An elder I studied with years ago told me he would get dizzy and lose his balance if he bowed his head with his eyes closed. He also put his arm around his wife's waist, almost as if he was setting an example for the congregation to follow.

I actually think it is more respectful to humble oneself before Jehovah on our knees as these scriptures attest to.

(Luke 22:41) And he himself drew away from them about a stone’s throw, and bent his knees and began to pray,

(1 Kings 8:54) And it came about that, as soon as Sol′o·mon finished praying to Jehovah with all this prayer and request for favor, he rose up from before the altar of Jehovah, from bending down upon his knees with his palms spread out to the heavens;

(Acts 9:40) But Peter put everybody outside and, bending his knees, he prayed, and, turning to the body, he said: “Tab′i·tha, rise!” She opened her eyes and, as she caught sight of Peter, she sat up.

(Acts 20:36) And when he had said these things, he kneeled down with all of them and prayed.

(Acts 21:5) So when we had completed the days, we went forth and started on our way; but they all, together with the women and children, conducted us as far as outside the city. And kneeling down on the beach we had prayer

(Ephesians 3:14) On account of this I bend my knees to the Father,

agape,
James

Dear James,

I'm doing my best ;)

What I was trying to say is this: what matters most is we express our respect by our body posture during prayer in some way. How exactly is a matter of culture, the time and area we live in, personal temperament and preferences. Some people are from a 'hot-blooded' culture and expressive, others are more 'cold-blooded' and stiff. But if the GB says some interested persons might be offended by seeing marriage mates, good friends or relatives touching each other 'in all chasteness' according to their "do not touch" decree (I've never heard such a thing occurring in the congregations in my area; cf. Col. 2:20-23), then I can as well say that I'm personally more offended by a body posture that is virtually not different than when one is standing waiting for the bus.

We should keep in mind prayer attitudes and customs are bound to culture and time. In ancient times and in the first century worshippers of Jehovah indeed used to kneel down. This is still a very good, powerful and humble attitude; it isn't very practical to do this in most Kingdom Halls. Other customs were to raise or lift up hands (Ps. 134:1-2; Neh. 8:6; 1 Tim. 2:8), to bow the head, but sometimes to raise the head and looking up to heaven (Matt. 14:19). However, if you can't bow your head because you may get dizzy spells, then don't, and keep a tight grip on your wife :) Yeah, and if you're paralysed and sitting in a wheelchair, then you can't bow your head and you can't kneel down either. But Jehovah knows the condition of your heart and this is what counts. So we should stop judging others and stop making rules based on our very own conscience and sensitivities and forcing them upon the conscience of others. Let each one have the freedom to express their worship of Jehovah with their heart and emotions, and their love for one another, which are the two greatest commandments.



(Awake 10/22 1998 p. 5 Can All People Ever Love One Another?)

Jesus told his followers that they would be recognized by a love that transcends racial, national, and all other boundaries. He said: “I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another.” Then he added: “By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.”—John 13:34, 35; 15:12, 13.
Jesus’ teachings about love, backed up by his example, worked a first-century miracle. His followers came to imitate their Master, learning to love one another in a way that drew widespread attention and admiration. Tertullian, a writer of the second and third centuries C.E., quoted non-Christians as commending Jesus’ followers: ‘See how they love one another and how they are ready to die for one another.’
Take care anyone, don't take it to the heart.

[TheMdC]

Gabriel,
I think you are right as to being witnesses of the bad that goes on...and the attempts at utter control. It makes my blood boil. Mind your dang business ! If i want to hold someones hand during a prayer,thats got nothing to with anyone. Its between me and Jehovah.

However,i dont think its happening because its a corrupt organisation. Jah IS using them. We are witnessing what happens when BLIND people dont know any better...when they want the best for us,but have no conception about how to make this happen.

Its like control freek parents who thinks their child will never grow up,or never gives them the chance to. A law for this...a law for that...a law for everything !!

This is what this type of rubbish is a sign of..not being a sign of satan being there..although he sure takes advantage of it so that people like us get upset by it.

Its just a sign of blindness and not knowing how to let people grow up..its just beyond them ! And stuff like this is a typical example of this mindset they have.

2Corinthians 4:4
Who blinds people to the truth? Who is the source of spiritual blindness?

You can't say that they are blind and also say that Satan isn't operating there. How is having agents of Satan among them not corruption?

"Jah IS using them."
Still? Today? In the articles discussed in this thread? Are you sure about that? Jehovah may have used them at one time in the past and he may not have. If He is using them today, I would love to see the evidence of it aside from self-proclamations from the GB.

As Gabriel brought out, after giving fair warning, Jehovah left Israel to suffer the consequences of their own actions. Is there any evidence that that hasn't happened to the WT yet? If I understand correctly, Watchman tried in vain to show them the things that are soon to take place, and I am fairly certain he's not the only one to try. They rejected him like Jeremiah's warning was rejected.

I'm not implying that there's nobody good left in Brooklyn. There are almost certainly true servants of Jehovah there. But they're not in charge. They are wheat among weeds. And it is getting worse.

The org isn't going to be half punished any more than Jerusalem was only half destroyed. The true hearted on the inside will need to make some crucial decisions in the coming time of distress.

[shikinah]

This is very true, brothers and sisters vary in affection, some kiss on cheeks, others hug, some are extremely affectionate. You cant change centuries old ways of life and tradition, to suit a cold way of display, which already causes people to not feel loved within the org. This will not bring people in it will in fact do the opposite.

Shikinah

[Eyes & Ears]

This is very true, brothers and sisters vary in affection, some kiss on cheeks, others hug, some are extremely affectionate. You cant change centuries old ways of life and tradition, to suit a cold way of display, which already causes people to not feel loved within the org. This will not bring people in it will in fact do the opposite.

Shikinah


Know what I think Shikinah, the ones who are over the edge, will take this information to heart as if it was scriptural and written on the two tablets as law. These are the ones who will be peeking during prayer to see who is holding hands and displaying other outward signs of affection. Of course we also have the brothers who sit in the back by the door. Do I hear local needs and being obedient to the slave talk coming. Remember you rebels you, you must obey the Slave/GB even when you don't understand. So there. (eyes rolling and head spinning) Once I saw an elder, who was running late from his job, he came in sat down with his wife kissed her very quickly and took his daughter from her and sat her on his lap. They are still a very loving couple. They are also young. Leave the loving b/s alone.

I can't wait to study this article at the KH to hear the comments from those in the audience, and especially the brother conducting.

Our WT conductor and his wife link arms and stand very close. The COBE and his wife are young, they always link arms, hold hands, or put their arms around each others waiste during prayer, song, etc. The TMS Overseer and his wife are young and they do the same. There is a new MS and he is also newly married, they show the same love towards each other (it's new to them come on now) .

So I guess this is a preview of no longer to meet and greet each other with a hug anymore (brothers/sisters) It will just be a handshake or hello. Perhaps now they will tell us to bring handwipes because of germs and not shake hands, then separate the brothers from the sisters and on and on. SHEESH. Guess I should not say SHEESH. How about just whoa boy. (Oh my nerves)

Who knows there reasoning for these types of things. It is obvious to me it is not balanced in this case especially. My personal opinion.

All this from the identifying marker of LOVE. HMMMMMM

Very strange goings on.


E & E

[TheMdC]

Who knows their reasoning? I don't claim to know but I have a guess.

It's specifically to weed out the nonconformists in the congregations. The GB seriously think that if they're still alive on earth after the GT and Big A that they're going to be ruling the world, in person. They also think the only ones to survive the cataclysm will be people who follow their instructions both now and then, without question.

So in a twisted egomaniacal way their overbearing paternalism makes a sort of sense. It's based on many false premises and therefore totally wrong but inside the fishbowl of their corporate boardroom there is a semblance of logic.

[imjustaskin]

I'm curious how the study will play out at my hall. I have mentioned before that my hall is very strong and loving. Sometimes when there is something harsh like this, the conductor will clarify a bit, saying, "now, do you think it's talking about ANY hand holding, etc." and then that way it's toned down.

I can always hope and pray!

Gabriel, I enjoyed your post about being "witnesses" to what is happening. My personal stance is the same. (I understand why others feel differently though.)

PS, they already told us our next "local needs" will be about swine flu prevention and not coming to the hall when you're sick. So at least I don't have to worry about that!

[Gabriel]

"Its easy to be black and white,there is no discernment needed.

If a person admits there are problems but also sees the good,thats a balanced view..its not trying to 'reason away' the bad...you just dont want to see the point being made. It explains why its there...and its obvious you want to condemn without seeing the rest of what goes on in JWs." - JD

When Jehovah showed Isaiah all the evils that was being done by his own people, did he take a side step to give attention to the good that was happening there also?

[TheMdC]

Deeds aren't weighed on an old-fashioned scale of justice, good versus bad. Just as you or I can't punch someone in the nose and then give a bag of clothing to the Goodwill store to make up for it, the organization can't expect their 87.29% correct doctrine to make up for the 12.81% misapplication of Holy Scripture.

It doesn't work that way. They're in line for the same chastisement that Jerusalem was, both as individuals and as a collective body. As members, we need to be prepared for that, accept the discipline when it comes, and understand it for what it is.

[panda]

I think when you have rows of b/s holding hands it looks rather odd, I really don't like it when everyone holds hands in a group especially when its a circle of b/s before sitting for a meal, to me I think its cultist or even childish, but that is what I think, and I really don't care that much if they do it, but I can understand a little what they may be getting at, as this has only been going on for twenty years, I don't remember this when I first came into the truth.

Also its nice if husbands and wives hold hands during prayer and song, but I really find it tasteless when some cuddle up and their hands are all over each other, it really does not look dignified, I personally think one can go to far, I have seen wives with their heads on their husbands shoulders and they are just leaning all over one another, I agree that one can be too casual, and should think of others. But saying holding a few holding hands or families is wrong I think that is just nit picking.

[TheMdC]

Panda, I'm so glad you posted this. Since you're the first one to post in this thread that is sometimes bothered by couples embracing during prayer, could you amplify on what your feelings are based on? I'm not challenging you or your position, I really want to understand the mind set. I'm not the type to let anything anyone else does bother me spiritually, as long as it doesn't encroach on my freedom of worship personally. Therefore I don't get how a couple embracing during prayer could possibly stumble anyone. Could you elaborate on what you mean by couples going too far, and what that "too far" standard is based on?

[Nightflyer]

Also its nice if husbands and wives hold hands during prayer and song, but I really find it tasteless when some cuddle up and their hands are all over each other, it really does not look dignified,

Some single sisters (meaning sisters who would like to get married but havent found a mate) have said to me sometimes that they dont like it when young couples do this in the meetings (during the prayers or not) because it makes them feel more alone, lonelier etc.

[imjustaskin]

Further input from the hubby, who is usually the calmer one of us two (go figure...)

He said what he got from it was for those in the hall not to imply that people SHOULD hold hands, etc, if they are not comfortable with it, or that they should feel "left out" if they don't want to. Hence the wording "For instance, suppose someone sought to have all in a group link arms or hold hands during prayer."

He also told me of a case where a husband and wife were playing "footsie" with their shoes off during prayer, :eek:, and said who knows what other instances the WTS has had reported to them in order for them to comment on it.

He said it didn't really seem anything big to him, or like anyone who just held hands or put their arm around the wife should change anything.

I sometimes get hubby's input since my reading of an article is often colored by my preconceptions. In some cases, such as this one, he has a different way of looking at it that helps me.

I confess I did see the logic of what he was saying.

[TheMdC]

ija, could you ask your husband to focus on this part:

"Some marriage mates might discreetly hold hands, but if they embraced each other during public prayer, those who got a glimpse of such conduct might be stumbled. They might think or get the impression that the couple was focusing on their romantic relationship instead of reverence for Jehovah. Out of deep respect for him, let us therefore "do all things for God's glory" and avoid conduct that could distract, shock or stumble anyone."

and ask whether it is counsel against a husband embracing a wife during prayer at the Kingdom Hall.

I've been fortunate enough (if you can call it that) to see this same paragraph in two different language editions of the Watchtower. The second language is much more direct than the English. There is no ambiguity; the WT is telling mates not to embrace during prayer.

[arimatthewdavies]

iv been to asemblys and other public events were ive seen married couple displaying to much afection for a public place,and what i mean necking or prolonged kisses and hugs and touching that looks to me like bedroom behavior. supose a muslim women or man was their to study and come into the truth out they door they would go.

[Desert Blossom]

Seems to me that the 'embracing your spouse' part is something that should have been addressed with a memo to the elders advising them to privately talk with any couples that are causing a stir in the congregation. I don't see the need to address something like this on a worldwide scale.

But the part about linking arms or having a whole group holding hands does seem reasonable. Sometimes all it takes is for one congregation to start a trend, then it spreads to neighboring congregations. Perhaps that is the situation that is being addressed. If more than a few instances of trying to get everyone in the building to link arms or hold hands during a public prayer have been occurring, then it seems reasonable that this is being addressed, although a better explanation of why the situation is being addressed probably would have been more helpful.

I can see how it would be uncomfortable for visitors to be expected to join hands or link arms during prayer, although I have never seen anything like that occur in a kingdom hall. I've only seen it done at private get-togethers, and never heard of it causing anyone to stumble, although I can see how it could, seeing that some religious groups promote that kind of thing. Some people are very sensitive to anything that reminds them of the religion they left behind.

Maybe the GB is running out of material and they're scrounging for topics to address in the WT lessons. Maybe we should all send them in a list of the kinds of topics we would like to see discussed in the WT lessons. I'm sure they would love hearing from all of us. ^_^

[TheMdC]

Who gets to decide what is "too much" affection between me and my wife in any given location? Where is a scripture that says that affection is "bedroom" behavior but inappropriate in public? These are social mores, not scriptural doctrines, and it is entirely inappropriate for the WT or anyone else to try to legislate such behaviors.

[imjustaskin]

ija, could you ask your husband to focus on this part:

"Some marriage mates might discreetly hold hands, but if they embraced each other during public prayer, those who got a glimpse of such conduct might be stumbled. They might think or get the impression that the couple was focusing on their romantic relationship instead of reverence for Jehovah. Out of deep respect for him, let us therefore "do all things for God's glory" and avoid conduct that could distract, shock or stumble anyone."

and ask whether it is counsel against a husband embracing a wife during prayer at the Kingdom Hall.



It's not very clear what they define as "embracing". Does that mean an arm around the waist? Or more? It would never occur to me that people might be playing footsie at the hall. So maybe it's not talking about casual hugs.

I'm just saying, if my husband read it that way, then probably many others will also - just a caution against getting too "hot and heavy" at the hall.

[Eyes & Ears]

I'm curious how the study will play out at my hall. I have mentioned before that my hall is very strong and loving. Sometimes when there is something harsh like this, the conductor will clarify a bit, saying, "now, do you think it's talking about ANY hand holding, etc." and then that way it's toned down.

I can always hope and pray!

Gabriel, I enjoyed your post about being "witnesses" to what is happening. My personal stance is the same. (I understand why others feel differently though.)

PS, they already told us our next "local needs" will be about swine flu prevention and not coming to the hall when you're sick. So at least I don't have to worry about that!


Hi IJA,

We had the swine flu local needs this week, they read a letter from the GB and it is very specific on cleanliness, coughing, using a sound mind if you are sick and staying home. I am simply amazed at how not only JW's but many other people who have no commonsense regarding covering your mouth when you cough, sneeze, whatever, washing hands, and all the other stuff that goes with it. I am just simply horrified at the things I see in this area. No wonder stuff spreads YUCK.:eek::eek:

E & E

[Eyes & Ears]

Gabriel,


Thank you for your expressions. Very good reminders for me.

Take care you are doing so great Gabriel as you move on and KEEP

HOLD N ON TO JEHOVAH.

E & E:D

[Jahsdisciple]

Hi IJA,

We had the swine flu local needs this week, they read a letter from the GB and it is very specific on cleanliness, coughing, using a sound mind if you are sick and staying home. I am simply amazed at how not only JW's but many other people who have no commonsense regarding covering your mouth when you cough, sneeze, whatever, washing hands, and all the other stuff that goes with it. I am just simply horrified at the things I see in this area. No wonder stuff spreads YUCK.:eek::eek:

E & E

Hi E&E,
Have a look at the site below and it shows the best way to cough or sneeze. Ive always done this with sneezing as covering with your hands and then shaking someones hands is the grossest thing ever...all those germs. I never shake someones hand after they sneeze into them...and i explain why. Leads to interesting conversations..LOL !

http://www.coughsafe.com/

[FutureMan]

Seems to me that the 'embracing your spouse' part is something that should have been addressed with a memo to the elders advising them to privately talk with any couples that are causing a stir in the congregation. I don't see the need to address something like this on a worldwide scale.

But the part about linking arms or having a whole group holding hands does seem reasonable. Sometimes all it takes is for one congregation to start a trend, then it spreads to neighboring congregations. Perhaps that is the situation that is being addressed. If more than a few instances of trying to get everyone in the building to link arms or hold hands during a public prayer have been occurring, then it seems reasonable that this is being addressed, although a better explanation of why the situation is being addressed probably would have been more helpful.

I can see how it would be uncomfortable for visitors to be expected to join hands or link arms during prayer, although I have never seen anything like that occur in a kingdom hall. I've only seen it done at private get-togethers, and never heard of it causing anyone to stumble, although I can see how it could, seeing that some religious groups promote that kind of thing. Some people are very sensitive to anything that reminds them of the religion they left behind.

Maybe the GB is running out of material and they're scrounging for topics to address in the WT lessons. Maybe we should all send them in a list of the kinds of topics we would like to see discussed in the WT lessons. I'm sure they would love hearing from all of us. ^_^

I'm afraid people, this is all about the image and appearance of the organization.

If this is all the wisdom and counsel, under the direction of the holy spirit, these ones can come up, with all of us in these trying times, then God help this organization which claims to represent God's name, that's all I have got to say on this matter.

[panda]

Panda, I'm so glad you posted this. Since you're the first one to post in this thread that is sometimes bothered by couples embracing during prayer, could you amplify on what your feelings are based on? I'm not challenging you or your position, I really want to understand the mind set. I'm not the type to let anything anyone else does bother me spiritually, as long as it doesn't encroach on my freedom of worship personally. Therefore I don't get how a couple embracing during prayer could possibly stumble anyone. Could you elaborate on what you mean by couples going too far, and what that "too far" standard is based on?I don't mean couples with their arms around one another, though that to may be a bit off putting to some. But some b/s especially the younger ones, are almost in embracing and I find that it is not dignified in a public place for prayer, its the type of embrace, we have had couples that are almost in front of one another the wife with the head on the shoulder, and swaying in embrace, its appears flaunting and its not doesn't appear appropriate, its embarrassing, we are on owe own before Jehovah.

I also find it thoughtless, there are a lot of single b/s, lonely ones, new ones also. One has to consider others, and ask themselves would God approve. But then I would like to get on my knews and hold my hands, not for show but that how I feel, to some that wouldn't be appropriate.

I don't think it is wrong to hold your spouces hand, or have an arm around the waist or shoulder during song or prayer, it is when it is cuddling and embracing, it appears romance.

[shikinah]

Know what I think Shikinah, the ones who are over the edge, will take this information to heart as if it was scriptural and written on the two tablets as law. These are the ones who will be peeking during prayer to see who is holding hands and displaying other outward signs of affection. Of course we also have the brothers who sit in the back by the door. Do I hear local needs and being obedient to the slave talk coming. Remember you rebels you, you must obey the Slave/GB even when you don't understand. So there. (eyes rolling and head spinning) Once I saw an elder, who was running late from his job, he came in sat down with his wife kissed her very quickly and took his daughter from her and sat her on his lap. They are still a very loving couple. They are also young. Leave the loving b/s alone.

I can't wait to study this article at the KH to hear the comments from those in the audience, and especially the brother conducting.

Our WT conductor and his wife link arms and stand very close. The COBE and his wife are young, they always link arms, hold hands, or put their arms around each others waiste during prayer, song, etc. The TMS Overseer and his wife are young and they do the same. There is a new MS and he is also newly married, they show the same love towards each other (it's new to them come on now) .

So I guess this is a preview of no longer to meet and greet each other with a hug anymore (brothers/sisters) It will just be a handshake or hello. Perhaps now they will tell us to bring handwipes because of germs and not shake hands, then separate the brothers from the sisters and on and on. SHEESH. Guess I should not say SHEESH. How about just whoa boy. (Oh my nerves)

Who knows there reasoning for these types of things. It is obvious to me it is not balanced in this case especially. My personal opinion.

All this from the identifying marker of LOVE. HMMMMMM

Very strange goings on.


E & E

So I guess this is a preview of no longer to meet and greet each other with a hug anymore (brothers/sisters) It will just be a handshake or hello. Perhaps now they will tell us to bring handwipes because of germs and not shake hands, then separate the brothers from the sisters and on and on. SHEESH. Guess I should not say SHEESH. How about just whoa boy. (Oh my nerves)

you could be right, it use to be greet each other with a kiss, it'll be a salute soon:o

[shikinah]

Panda, I'm so glad you posted this. Since you're the first one to post in this thread that is sometimes bothered by couples embracing during prayer, could you amplify on what your feelings are based on? I'm not challenging you or your position, I really want to understand the mind set. I'm not the type to let anything anyone else does bother me spiritually, as long as it doesn't encroach on my freedom of worship personally. Therefore I don't get how a couple embracing during prayer could possibly stumble anyone. Could you elaborate on what you mean by couples going too far, and what that "too far" standard is based on?

I think i know what Panda is talking about, i have seen it on a few occations and funny enough it does seem to be more the sisters, who like to make a public display of their love for their husband, but it seems as if there saying to the single sisters look at me arnt i the lucky one. As they know theres many a single sister who would love to be married, its how its done which looks dis-tasteful. Or maybe their just so happy they have a good catch :clap:

[Nightflyer]

I think i know what Panda is talking about, i have seen it on a few occations and funny enough it does seem to be more the sisters, who like to make a public display of their love for their husband, but it seems as if there saying to the single sisters look at me arnt i the lucky one.

Yep, this is what I meant in my earlier post. Some single sisters feel this way (and maybe some single brothers as well). I have heard them saying like "oh gosh, dont they have enough time to that at home??" :rolleyes:

[shikinah]

Yep, this is what I meant in my earlier post. Some single sisters feel this way (and maybe some single brothers as well). I have heard them saying like "oh gosh, dont they have enough time to that at home??" :rolleyes:

Aww sorry Nightflyer missed your quote, yes i have heard that one, and have you heard this one "oh get me a bucket" :icon8:

[SWORDOFJAH]

*** w05 7/15 p. 17 "The Shrewd One Considers His Steps" ***
A SHREWD person is practical and clever, sound in judgment and sharp in perception, judicious and prudent, discerning and wise. He is neither devious nor manipulative. "Everyone shrewd will act with knowledge," states Proverbs 13:16. Yes, shrewdness, or prudence, is a desirable trait.

[Eyes & Ears]

I'm afraid people, this is all about the image and appearance of the organization.

If this is all the wisdom and counsel, under the direction of the holy spirit, these ones can come up, with all of us in these trying times, then God help this organization which claims to represent God's name, that's all I have got to say on this matter.


Hi There Future Man,

I thought about what you said in your opening sentence when I initially read that paragraph from the article.

There has always been, in my opinion, lots of emphasis placed on outward appearance in this org. We must always appear to be clean. Reminds me of all those scriptures that talk about white washed graves, etc.

Not saying I don't ever appreciate what I have learned and am still able to learn. Just saying this is something that I have noticed during my time spent inside of this org, and I will spare the board of my many experiences with this.:p Yes, I hear you all clapping and saying thank goodness (LOL) as you let out your breath in a phew that was close.

E & E

[Desert Blossom]

I'm afraid people, this is all about the image and appearance of the organization.

If this is all the wisdom and counsel, under the direction of the holy spirit, these ones can come up, with all of us in these trying times, then God help this organization which claims to represent God's name, that's all I have got to say on this matter.

Searching with the keywords "drought word of Jehovah" I came across this little nugget.

*** it-1 p. 59 Ahab ***

Condones False Worship. Ahab’s record was one of the worst as regards the vital area of true worship. Not only did the corrupted worship of Jehovah by means of Jeroboam’s golden calves continue but Ahab also allowed Baal worship to infect Israel on an unprecedented scale due to his early marriage to Jezebel, the daughter of Ethbaal, king of Sidon. Josephus, quoting ancient historian Menander, refers to Ethbaal as Ithobal, and the account (Against Apion, I, 123 [18]) relates that he was the priest of Astarte before ascending the throne by murdering the king.

Ahab allowed his pagan wife Jezebel to lead him into Baal worship, to build a temple for Baal, and to erect a sacred pole in honor of Ashtoreth (Astarte). (1Ki 16:30-33) Before long there were 450 prophets of Baal and 400 prophets of the sacred pole, all being fed from Jezebel’s royal table. (1Ki 18:19) True prophets of Jehovah were slain by the sword, and only the action of Ahab’s house manager Obadiah, a man of faith, preserved the lives of 100 of them by hiding them in caves, where they subsisted on bread and water.—1Ki 18:3, 4, 13; 19:10.

As a result of his turning to Baal worship, Ahab was informed by Elijah of the coming of a severe drought that, according to Luke 4:25 and James 5:17, covered a period of three years and six months. (emphasis added)(1Ki 17:1; 18:1) The rains would return only at Elijah’s word, and though Ahab searched for him in all the surrounding nations and kingdoms, Elijah stayed out of his reach until the due time. (1Ki 17:8, 9; 18:2, 10) Ahab now endeavored to place the blame on Elijah for the drought and famine, an accusation that Elijah refuted, showing the real cause to be the Baal worship patronized by Ahab. A test held on top of Mount Carmel proved Baal to be a nonentity and manifested Jehovah as the true God; the prophets of Baal were slain at Elijah’s command, and shortly thereafter a drenching downpour brought an end to the drought. (1Ki 18:17-46) Ahab headed back to Jezreel and to his wife, whom he informed of Elijah’s actions against Baalism. Jezebel reacted with a violent threat to Elijah, resulting in his flight to Mount Horeb.—1Ki 19:1-8.

[panda]

paragraph 9 subheading Pray for Others in this study article I found disturbing, or have I read it wrong?


9) Our prayer for anointed Christians and THEIR "other sheep" companions give evidence of our concern for God's organization. (John 10:16)

their other sheep? they don't own us.:(

[FutureMan]

Searching with the keywords "drought word of Jehovah" I came across this little nugget.

*** it-1 p. 59 Ahab ***

Condones False Worship. Ahab’s record was one of the worst as regards the vital area of true worship. Not only did the corrupted worship of Jehovah by means of Jeroboam’s golden calves continue but Ahab also allowed Baal worship to infect Israel on an unprecedented scale due to his early marriage to Jezebel, the daughter of Ethbaal, king of Sidon. Josephus, quoting ancient historian Menander, refers to Ethbaal as Ithobal, and the account (Against Apion, I, 123 [18]) relates that he was the priest of Astarte before ascending the throne by murdering the king.

Ahab allowed his pagan wife Jezebel to lead him into Baal worship, to build a temple for Baal, and to erect a sacred pole in honor of Ashtoreth (Astarte). (1Ki 16:30-33) Before long there were 450 prophets of Baal and 400 prophets of the sacred pole, all being fed from Jezebel’s royal table. (1Ki 18:19) True prophets of Jehovah were slain by the sword, and only the action of Ahab’s house manager Obadiah, a man of faith, preserved the lives of 100 of them by hiding them in caves, where they subsisted on bread and water.—1Ki 18:3, 4, 13; 19:10.

As a result of his turning to Baal worship, Ahab was informed by Elijah of the coming of a severe drought that, according to Luke 4:25 and James 5:17, covered a period of three years and six months. (emphasis added)(1Ki 17:1; 18:1) The rains would return only at Elijah’s word, and though Ahab searched for him in all the surrounding nations and kingdoms, Elijah stayed out of his reach until the due time. (1Ki 17:8, 9; 18:2, 10) Ahab now endeavored to place the blame on Elijah for the drought and famine, an accusation that Elijah refuted, showing the real cause to be the Baal worship patronized by Ahab. A test held on top of Mount Carmel proved Baal to be a nonentity and manifested Jehovah as the true God; the prophets of Baal were slain at Elijah’s command, and shortly thereafter a drenching downpour brought an end to the drought. (1Ki 18:17-46) Ahab headed back to Jezreel and to his wife, whom he informed of Elijah’s actions against Baalism. Jezebel reacted with a violent threat to Elijah, resulting in his flight to Mount Horeb.—1Ki 19:1-8.


Very thought provoking Desert Blossom, that's for sure.
Thanks for sharing that with us.

I wonder where we have heard of 3 and a half years elsewhere in the Bible?

(Revelation 11:1-4) 11 And a reed like a rod was given me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple [sanctuary] of God and the altar and those worshiping in it. 2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary], cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth.” 4 These are [symbolized by] the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth.



(Revelation 12:5-6) 5 And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was caught away to God and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days.

(Revelation 12:13-14) 13 Now when the dragon saw that it was hurled down to the earth, it persecuted the woman that gave birth to the male child. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place; there is where she is fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent.


(Daniel 7:23-26) 23 “This is what he said, ‘As for the fourth beast, there is a fourth kingdom that will come to be on the earth, that will be different from all the [other] kingdoms; and it will devour all the earth and will trample it down and crush it. 24 And as for the ten horns, out of that kingdom there are ten kings that will rise up; and still another one will rise up after them, and he himself will be different from the first ones, and three kings he will humiliate. 25 And he will speak even words against the Most High, and he will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One. And he will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, and times and half a time. 26 And the Court itself proceeded to sit, and his own rulership they finally took away, in order to annihilate [him] and to destroy [him] totally.


(Daniel 9:27) 27 “And he must keep [the] covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease.. . .

(Daniel 12:5-7) 5 And I saw, I Daniel, and, look! there were two others standing, one on the bank here of the stream and the other on the bank there of the stream. 6 Then one said to the man clothed with the linen, who was up above the waters of the stream: “How long will it be to the end of the wonderful things?” 7 And I began to hear the man clothed with the linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he proceeded to raise his right [hand] and his left [hand] to the heavens and to swear by the One who is alive for time indefinite: “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times and a half. And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish.”

(Daniel 12:11) 11 “And from the time that the constant [feature] has been removed and there has been a placing of the disgusting thing that is causing desolation, there will be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

[Desert Blossom]

My thoughts exactly.


Very thought provoking Desert Blossom, that's for sure.
Thanks for sharing that with us.

I wonder where we have heard of 3 and a half years elsewhere in the Bible?

(Revelation 11:1-4) 11 And a reed like a rod was given me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple [sanctuary] of God and the altar and those worshiping in it. 2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary], cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth.” 4 These are [symbolized by] the two olive trees and the two lampstands and are standing before the Lord of the earth.



(Revelation 12:5-6) 5 And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was caught away to God and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days.

(Revelation 12:13-14) 13 Now when the dragon saw that it was hurled down to the earth, it persecuted the woman that gave birth to the male child. 14 But the two wings of the great eagle were given the woman, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place; there is where she is fed for a time and times and half a time away from the face of the serpent.


(Daniel 7:23-26) 23 “This is what he said, ‘As for the fourth beast, there is a fourth kingdom that will come to be on the earth, that will be different from all the [other] kingdoms; and it will devour all the earth and will trample it down and crush it. 24 And as for the ten horns, out of that kingdom there are ten kings that will rise up; and still another one will rise up after them, and he himself will be different from the first ones, and three kings he will humiliate. 25 And he will speak even words against the Most High, and he will harass continually the holy ones themselves of the Supreme One. And he will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand for a time, and times and half a time. 26 And the Court itself proceeded to sit, and his own rulership they finally took away, in order to annihilate [him] and to destroy [him] totally.


(Daniel 9:27) 27 “And he must keep [the] covenant in force for the many for one week; and at the half of the week he will cause sacrifice and gift offering to cease.. . .

(Daniel 12:5-7) 5 And I saw, I Daniel, and, look! there were two others standing, one on the bank here of the stream and the other on the bank there of the stream. 6 Then one said to the man clothed with the linen, who was up above the waters of the stream: “How long will it be to the end of the wonderful things?” 7 And I began to hear the man clothed with the linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he proceeded to raise his right [hand] and his left [hand] to the heavens and to swear by the One who is alive for time indefinite: “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times and a half. And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish.”

(Daniel 12:11) 11 “And from the time that the constant [feature] has been removed and there has been a placing of the disgusting thing that is causing desolation, there will be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.

[The Way]

paragraph 9 subheading Pray for Others in this study article I found disturbing, or have I read it wrong?


9) Our prayer for anointed Christians and THEIR "other sheep" companions give evidence of our concern for God's organization. (John 10:16)

their other sheep? they don't own us.:(

Hi Panda,

You may be reading too much in it. We pray for anointed Christians and for their companions, which are also called the 'other sheep'.

However, I do share your concern. What I find indeed disturbing is the claim made in the WT study for Dec. 6, Be Aglow With the Spirit, par. 10, that the 'other sheep' belong to some kind of "belongings" of the FDS, which we all know is as a matter of fact the GB. So yes, the GB, with all due respect sinful and imperfect humans like us, claim the present ownership of 7 million 'other sheep' as some kind of possessions (!).

[Utuna]

Hi Panda,

You may be reading too much in it. We pray for anointed Christians and for their companions, which are also called the 'other sheep'.

However, I do share your concern. What I find indeed disturbing is the claim made in the WT study for Dec. 6, Be Aglow With the Spirit, par. 10, that the 'other sheep' belong to some kind of "belongings" of the FDS, which we all know is as a matter of fact the GB. So yes, the GB, with all due respect sinful and imperfect humans like us, claim the present ownership of 7 million 'other sheep' as some kind of possessions (!).

Dear The Way,

I agree, the French version of that article just says : "Praying in behalf of the anointed Christians and of the "other sheep", we demonstrate that we care about God's organization."
However, I don't know why the translators didn't keep the possessive adjective of the original version.

---------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Eyes & Ears]

Hi Panda,

You may be reading too much in it. We pray for anointed Christians and for their companions, which are also called the 'other sheep'.

However, I do share your concern. What I find indeed disturbing is the claim made in the WT study for Dec. 6, Be Aglow With the Spirit, par. 10, that the 'other sheep' belong to some kind of "belongings" of the FDS, which we all know is as a matter of fact the GB. So yes, the GB, with all due respect sinful and imperfect humans like us, claim the present ownership of 7 million 'other sheep' as some kind of possessions (!).


************************************************** *********************

Hi The Way,

My response is not directed at you, it just that the paragraph you reference (after my reading it in full) has brought these thoughts and questions into my mind. I'm just rambling that is all.

Why is it necessary for all this stuff relating to the slave/GB authority. What is their purpose in this constant repeating of who they are, who the sheep are and how we are to look up to them in order to be pleasing to them. AM I A DUMB DONKEY. :confused:

Why is is that they have to imply that they have the right for this special treatment due to their relationship with Jehovah and Jesus.

They are saying that the other sheep are part of "all things" placed by Jehovah under the headship of his Son. They are also among the "belongings" that Christ has entrusted to his faithful & discreet slave. Then they smooth it out by saying those with an earthly hope should, therefore, recognize Christ as their Head and be submissive to the FDS and its GB and men appointed as overseers.

Why do they have to try to make us feel that we owe them something or we belong to them. In my opinion they are trying to just run past Jehovah and Jesus and start doing things before some of the scriptures are fulfilled. (Hope I am saying that the right way) AM I MISREADING, OVER REACTING, JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS? Hope you all know I am being sincere here.

My feelings over the last year have gotten really intense. I guess many can tell that on the board. I am not angry or bitter, I am just disgusted and getting a little almost repulsed by these kinds of statements.

I know what Jehovah said about His Son and those who are invited to be members of his household. Why is it they feel they have to say more than Jehovah. What is it that they want?

Are they really concerned about unity or is there something else? Seems to me the weeds are getting very bold now. Almost to the point, where I am taking a very hard and serious look at what is happening now inside my Father's household. Before I was watching, now I am seriously looking at the meaning of all this. My feelings/opinions are it won't be long now before their true colors will be made known (REVEALED) and understood by many more of Jehovah's people who want to worship in spirit and in truth.

I'm just waiting for that really obvious obvious and then I know Jerusalem is surrounded and I am getting the heck out of there.

But for now I am just sharing my heartfelt concerns as I continue to watch and listen to the STUFF going on in there.

I attend a loving congregation (FOR NOW) we do have our issues. But meeting attendance is really low now. It's not due to summer/vacations/back to school or any of that stuff. No one hardly participates in the WT or at the TMS.

It is sooooooooooooooo obvious there is BIG TROUBLE IN PARADISE.

Anyone else attending meetings experiencing any of these things I mentioned?

I am so tensed up some of what I am saying sounds off I know, sorry.

E & E


I'm so about ready to jump.

[Utuna]

Seems to me that the 'embracing your spouse' part is something that should have been addressed with a memo to the elders advising them to privately talk with any couples that are causing a stir in the congregation. I don't see the need to address something like this on a worldwide scale.

But the part about linking arms or having a whole group holding hands does seem reasonable. Sometimes all it takes is for one congregation to start a trend, then it spreads to neighboring congregations. Perhaps that is the situation that is being addressed. If more than a few instances of trying to get everyone in the building to link arms or hold hands during a public prayer have been occurring, then it seems reasonable that this is being addressed, although a better explanation of why the situation is being addressed probably would have been more helpful.

I can see how it would be uncomfortable for visitors to be expected to join hands or link arms during prayer, although I have never seen anything like that occur in a kingdom hall. I've only seen it done at private get-togethers, and never heard of it causing anyone to stumble, although I can see how it could, seeing that some religious groups promote that kind of thing. Some people are very sensitive to anything that reminds them of the religion they left behind.

Maybe the GB is running out of material and they're scrounging for topics to address in the WT lessons. Maybe we should all send them in a list of the kinds of topics we would like to see discussed in the WT lessons. I'm sure they would love hearing from all of us. ^_^

Dear all,

I agree with panda and DB on this.

It's sure that unbecoming behaviours or customs might exist in KHs and the org is right in telling us to be careful (1Cor6:12).

IMO, the real unknown factor will be how this article will be interpretated and, above all, applied in congregations.

Once again, the same issue comes back: the spiritual maturity and the love of the body of elders in each congregation will make the difference....

---------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[TheMdC]

My guess E&E is that the GB is planning to ask for some pretty wacky and/or demanding stuff in the near future and they want everyone either on board with their program or already removed before they implement whatever it is they have coming.

Not to worry. If the interpretation of the prophecies as explained in the "JBK" book is correct, the org won't be around to ask us to sell our homes to help them pay their lawsuit settlements or back taxes or whatever other crisis they imagine the great tribulation is going to bring upon them. They're the first to go, quite possibly.

That's why it is so important to build a personal relationship with Jehovah and Jesus Christ. That's why it is so important that we hug our families and pray together. That is why it is so important to have a regular study of the Bible in one's own home. It's going to be our primary place of worship before too long.

And that is the arrangement of Jehovah. His organization was a patriarchal one of families and extended families, until the Israelites insisted upon kings in imitation of the world.

[Eyes & Ears]

My guess E&E is that the GB is planning to ask for some pretty wacky and/or demanding stuff in the near future and they want everyone either on board with their program or already removed before they implement whatever it is they have coming.

Not to worry. If the interpretation of the prophecies as explained in the "JBK" book is correct, the org won't be around to ask us to sell our homes to help them pay their lawsuit settlements or back taxes or whatever other crisis they imagine the great tribulation is going to bring upon them. They're the first to go, quite possibly.

That's why it is so important to build a personal relationship with Jehovah and Jesus Christ. That's why it is so important that we hug our families and pray together. That is why it is so important to have a regular study of the Bible in one's own home. It's going to be our primary place of worship before too long.

And that is the arrangement of Jehovah. His organization was a patriarchal one of families and extended families, until the Israelites insisted upon kings in imitation of the world.



TMDC,

Sometimes all it takes is a few simple balanced words to drive the point home.:clap:

Thank you so much for your straight forward, helpful and encouraging words. :y:

Ya know I would not be one bit surprised by what you say in your first paragraph about something wacky (off the wall) and demanding we all march by the same beat OR ELSE. Thanks for the food for thought there.


Best to you and your family TMDC.


E & E

[panda]

I think i know what Panda is talking about, i have seen it on a few occations and funny enough it does seem to be more the sisters, who like to make a public display of their love for their husband, but it seems as if there saying to the single sisters look at me arnt i the lucky one. As they know theres many a single sister who would love to be married, its how its done which looks dis-tasteful. Or maybe their just so happy they have a good catch :clap:yes that is basically another reason, I didn't want to sound like a spoil sport, but foremost it can be carried away and makes it doesn't' look dignified. Notice in the picture in that article, the brother is giving a prayer and the congregation are all standing with their hands by their sides, no one is holding hands.
I think that is a bit much, but when it comes to groups chaining hands, and rows of rows holding hands it does look cultist. The married couples some really do go overboard and sister Shikinah makes the other point, that it can by some be about ownership.

When I first started to attend meetings, I would walk up to say hello to a couple and the sister would grab her husbands arm and pull him close to her, that has happened a few times, I just thought it was sad.

I think basically the GB do have a point but maybe taking it a bit far, they should have been more specific. I don't think that they should bring in a law for not holding hands individually.

[Nightflyer]

When I first started to attend meetings, I would walk up to say hello to a couple and the sister would grab her husbands arm and pull him close to her, that has happened a few times, I just thought it was sad.


:lol: Its sad but somehow also laughable. I have seen this too. Some people seem to a bit paranoid, like some new brother/sister was going to come and steal their husband/wife. Some brothers are sisters are also very jealous if some single person talks even one word with their mate.

[Jahsdisciple]

:lol: Its sad but somehow also laughable. I have seen this too. Some people seem to a bit paranoid, like some new brother/sister was going to come and steal their husband/wife. Some brothers are sisters are also very jealous if some single person talks even one word with their mate.

BOY,i sure know this from experience. There was a sister who literally was like my big sister ! But i had to say goodbye because the elder/husband would give her a really hard time every time i spoke to her ! I really miss her though.

[panda]

************************************************** *********************

Hi The Way,

My response is not directed at you, it just that the paragraph you reference (after my reading it in full) has brought these thoughts and questions into my mind. I'm just rambling that is all.

Why is it necessary for all this stuff relating to the slave/GB authority. What is their purpose in this constant repeating of who they are, who the sheep are and how we are to look up to them in order to be pleasing to them. AM I A DUMB DONKEY. :confused:

Why is is that they have to imply that they have the right for this special treatment due to their relationship with Jehovah and Jesus.

They are saying that the other sheep are part of "all things" placed by Jehovah under the headship of his Son. They are also among the "belongings" that Christ has entrusted to his faithful & discreet slave. Then they smooth it out by saying those with an earthly hope should, therefore, recognize Christ as their Head and be submissive to the FDS and its GB and men appointed as overseers.

Why do they have to try to make us feel that we owe them something or we belong to them. In my opinion they are trying to just run past Jehovah and Jesus and start doing things before some of the scriptures are fulfilled. (Hope I am saying that the right way) AM I MISREADING, OVER REACTING, JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS? Hope you all know I am being sincere here.

My feelings over the last year have gotten really intense. I guess many can tell that on the board. I am not angry or bitter, I am just disgusted and getting a little almost repulsed by these kinds of statements.

I know what Jehovah said about His Son and those who are invited to be members of his household. Why is it they feel they have to say more than Jehovah. What is it that they want?

Are they really concerned about unity or is there something else? Seems to me the weeds are getting very bold now. Almost to the point, where I am taking a very hard and serious look at what is happening now inside my Father's household. Before I was watching, now I am seriously looking at the meaning of all this. My feelings/opinions are it won't be long now before their true colors will be made known (REVEALED) and understood by many more of Jehovah's people who want to worship in spirit and in truth.

I'm just waiting for that really obvious obvious and then I know Jerusalem is surrounded and I am getting the heck out of there.

But for now I am just sharing my heartfelt concerns as I continue to watch and listen to the STUFF going on in there.

I attend a loving congregation (FOR NOW) we do have our issues. But meeting attendance is really low now. It's not due to summer/vacations/back to school or any of that stuff. No one hardly participates in the WT or at the TMS.

It is sooooooooooooooo obvious there is BIG TROUBLE IN PARADISE.

Anyone else attending meetings experiencing any of these things I mentioned?

I am so tensed up some of what I am saying sounds off I know, sorry.

E & E


I'm so about ready to jump.hi sister EandE.. I agree with all you have said here, funny thing is I have been feeling the same, I feel so tired of being put in a box, I mean I feel like I have to be gift wrapped or something and given over to Jehovah like a they have made me who I am and I should be grateful to them. I want to love and respect them but instead I feel resentful of the way they continue to promote themselves, and like they feel the need to put us on our place. Ungratful lot we are:p

[Nightflyer]

BOY,i sure know this from experience. There was a sister who literally was like my big sister ! But i had to say goodbye because the elder/husband would give her a really hard time every time i spoke to her ! I really miss her though.

Yep this kinda things happen a lot. I usually dont talk at all with married sisters because of this. I guess this is just another of those weird things about us Jws..

[panda]

Yep this kinda things happen a lot. I usually dont talk at all with married sisters because of this. I guess this is just another of those weird things about us Jws..I think because of the amount of divorces, and elders running of even CO's, they are very wary, think well if this person can do that , then this one would, or the devil is very active, especially if someone is inactive, but I think they are realizing that anyone can.

I just keep to myself, have some really nice sisters I get along with up to being honest about what I disagree with. I just don't feel like I have a gender and look at brothers as brothers.

Terrible to be so insecure with ones partner, there are some b/s that are OK and their love for you over rides that.

[Eyes & Ears]

hi sister EandE.. I agree with all you have said here, funny thing is I have been feeling the same, I feel so tired of being put in a box, I mean I feel like I have to be gift wrapped or something and given over to Jehovah like a they have made me who I am and I should be grateful to them. I want to love and respect them but instead I feel resentful of the way they continue to promote themselves, and like they feel the need to put us on our place. Ungratful lot we are:p


HI LIL PANDA BEAR,


Well, at least I am not alone, sad as it is. Guess we have to wait just a "little while longer" and keep HOLD N ON TIGHT TO JEHOVAH.

But I agree with TMDC's thoughts, we best be drawing close to our heavenly father because there will be a time when meeting in our homes or wherever we may find ourselves will be the only meeting place.

Where "two or more are gathered"........................... Seems to be going in that direction pretty fast these days.

Love to you and your family Panda Bear.


E & E

[panda]

Gabriel,
I think you are right as to being witnesses of the bad that goes on...and the attempts at utter control. It makes my blood boil. Mind your dang business ! If i want to hold someones hand during a prayer,thats got nothing to with anyone. Its between me and Jehovah.

However,i dont think its happening because its a corrupt organisation. Jah IS using them. We are witnessing what happens when BLIND people dont know any better...when they want the best for us,but have no conception about how to make this happen.

Its like control freek parents who thinks their child will never grow up,or never gives them the chance to. A law for this...a law for that...a law for everything !!

This is what this type of rubbish is a sign of..not being a sign of satan being there..although he sure takes advantage of it so that people like us get upset by it.

Its just a sign of blindness and not knowing how to let people grow up..its just beyond them ! And stuff like this is a typical example of this mindset they have.they can't grow themselves, because they are to busy trying to keep us convinced of all the mistakes they have made over the last century. So trying to keep us in compliance child is a way of control. They treat us like children because they imagine themselves to be so more wiser, superior and already ruling as kings, in a despot way, remember how the Catholic kept the bible from the people, or how the Pharisees lorded over the people, they were the only ones that knew it all because they were favored and its Satan's utensils he trying to block the growth of truth to Gods people, and of course those of the anointed are being pushed aside like of no account, instead of being equal we are all in little cliques and groups elevated or demoted which every way the GB choses.:(

[EmmaKay]

http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab314/the_way_2009/public-prayers.png



I've seen this somewhere before....

http://www.thirdreichruins.com/prague1.jpg

Nah...too much conformity here...

Where else...??? Hrmmm....can't remember...

Anyways...

Something I did want to comment on....."Sisters grabbing their husband"...
I do that!!!! So what?? I am not doing it to rub people's noses in it...It's more of a show of unity for me. "We" are "one"...a "package". I'm not insecure, I absolutely believe that my Husband should have female friends.

I definitely believe that SOME ladies might do something like that to "mark their territory" so-to-speak...But let's not make it an all encompassing opinion that the ladies that DO do it are just jealous or think you might steal their Husband because that's the way YOU want to take it.

And that's where you get people stumbled...people take sincere silly gestures as personal assaults...and with so much sensitivity, you wonder why the WT writes such stupid laws! I seriously can't believe that some people whine and complain about some of the stupidest stuff!!!

Believe me...if Elder's and CO's are running off with these women because their Wife didn't make their presence known by going and touching his hand while he's speaking to another woman...well that's just completely insane!!
If a man cheats on his Wife (and vice versa), then there are deeper issues involved.

Here's what I propose...ALL men should shave their heads so that our balding brother's don't feel like they're flaunting their full head of hair.

It would be disrespectful for a married couple to purposely flaunt their relationship to an insecure single person and equally disrespectful for a single person to flirt with a married person. Period! But am I or anyone else supposed to change their whole relationship dynamic in the off chance they might offend someone?? Necking and gettin freaky-not allowed, hand holding and appropriate PDA-Allowed!

Either extreme is bad! Period. Balance, balance, balance!

Just the rants of a slightly affronted EmmaK.

Please continue with your regularly scheduled posting.....

[SlaveForJah]

Either extreme is bad! Period. Balance, balance, balance!

Just the rants of a slightly affronted EmmaK.

Please continue with your regularly scheduled posting.....

Boy do I miss you when you're not around, EK. Your posts always (or at least most of the time) represent wisdom and insight. Something that is often lacking from this board.

Of meat sacrificed to idols, Paul said: "30 If I am partaking with thanks, why am I to be spoken of abusively over that for which I give thanks?" - 1Corinthians10:30

Apparently, with those who would have us believe that they have already begun ruling as kings, walking modestly with our God and living peacefully and minding our own business is not enough. They desire a pinch of incense.

So sad that many also desire to be ruled by men, like the nations.


Agape

SlaveForJah

[TheMdC]

Boy do I miss you when you're not around, EK. Your posts always (or at least most of the time) represent wisdom and insight. Something that is often lacking from this board.



:o
Ouch.
:cool:

[panda]

I've seen this somewhere before....

http://www.thirdreichruins.com/prague1.jpg

Nah...too much conformity here...

Where else...??? Hrmmm....can't remember...

Anyways...

Something I did want to comment on....."Sisters grabbing their husband"...
I do that!!!! So what?? I am not doing it to rub people's noses in it...It's more of a show of unity for me. "We" are "one"...a "package". I'm not insecure, I absolutely believe that my Husband should have female friends.

I definitely believe that SOME ladies might do something like that to "mark their territory" so-to-speak...But let's not make it an all encompassing opinion that the ladies that DO do it are just jealous or think you might steal their Husband because that's the way YOU want to take it.

And that's where you get people stumbled...people take sincere silly gestures as personal assaults...and with so much sensitivity, you wonder why the WT writes such stupid laws! I seriously can't believe that some people whine and complain about some of the stupidest stuff!!!

Believe me...if Elder's and CO's are running off with these women because their Wife didn't make their presence known by going and touching his hand while he's speaking to another woman...well that's just completely insane!!
If a man cheats on his Wife (and vice versa), then there are deeper issues involved.

Here's what I propose...ALL men should shave their heads so that our balding brother's don't feel like they're flaunting their full head of hair.

It would be disrespectful for a married couple to purposely flaunt their relationship to an insecure single person and equally disrespectful for a single person to flirt with a married person. Period! But am I or anyone else supposed to change their whole relationship dynamic in the off chance they might offend someone?? Necking and gettin freaky-not allowed, hand holding and appropriate PDA-Allowed!

Either extreme is bad! Period. Balance, balance, balance!

Just the rants of a slightly affronted EmmaK.

Please continue with your regularly scheduled posting.....a sister grabbing her husband as I walk up to them, me being new in the truth, made me feel like a tart and someone with no principles, I think you missed my point, and yes sisters can be really insecure sometimes with there husbands, thats their problem, if they think of someone that is trying to flirt with their man, then they should apply the principle of talking with them.

The point was also made about married couples that are all over one another during prayer, that to many is disrespectful and could stumble new ones, holding hands and having ones arm around someone is not offensive to me, I agree we do have to be balanced, but spiritually speaking sometimes couples do go to far. It is a place of worship not a lounge room.

[SlaveForJah]

:o
Ouch.
:cool:

Why the pain, MdC?


Agape

SlaveForJah

[Utuna]

Why the pain, MdC?


Agape

SlaveForJah

Dear SlaveForJah,

Maybe that he just feels for the numerous members of this DB who don't live up to your expectations... :( ;) :p

---------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Utuna]

Hi Emma,

Here are the pictures of two elders of one of my former congregations. Things weren't easy all days back then! :p :D
Thanks for your words of wisdom. ;)

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu294/Utuna/klink.png

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu294/Utuna/Shultz.png

---------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[SlaveForJah]

Dear SlaveForJah,

Maybe that he just feels for the numerous members of this DB who don't live up to your expectations... :( ;) :p

---------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

Hello Utuna,

What "expectations" would those be?


Agape

SlaveForJah

[James]

Hello Utuna,

What "expectations" would those be?


Agape

SlaveForJah


...wisdom and insight. Something that is often lacking from this board.



I thought that was a rather caustic statement that was directed to your own brothers/sisters here on this board.


agape,
James

[TheMdC]

Agreed, James.

I tried to make a bit of a joke of it but apparently smilies are too subtle.

[TheMdC]

a sister grabbing her husband as I walk up to them, me being new in the truth, made me feel like a tart and someone with no principles, I think you missed my point, and yes sisters can be really insecure sometimes with there husbands, thats their problem, if they think of someone that is trying to flirt with their man, then they should apply the principle of talking with them.

The point was also made about married couples that are all over one another during prayer, that to many is disrespectful and could stumble new ones, holding hands and having ones arm around someone is not offensive to me, I agree we do have to be balanced, but spiritually speaking sometimes couples do go to far. It is a place of worship not a lounge room.

Our consciences should be trained by Jehovah. If something is offensive to him, it should be offensive to us. If it isn't offensive to him, it shouldn't be offensive to us. Those who take offense are the ones with the problem. The society has it flipped, always counseling us not to give offense, and many friends are therefore conditioned to often take offense.

It's just wrong.

There is no inappropriate time to embrace family members. Everything else is simply traditions of men.

[SlaveForJah]

If the shoe fits...

James, TheMdC, I didn't mean to be caustic. But, as I'm sure most of us here know, sometimes the truth hurts. If the statement doesn't apply to you, then you have nothing to worry about. But you can't honestly say that the majority of posts here in the last 6-8 months have been wise or insightful, can you?


Agape

SlaveForJah

[TheMdC]

It's relative. Drop us a link to a wiser and more insightful group of folks on a message board and I'll be glad to go there. I sometimes lurk on other boards and in my view they're all much less wise or insightful than this one.

I've only been here since late spring of this year so I can't speak to how this place compares to past years. How was it in the past? A bunch of intellectualls impressing each other with how smart they are? If so, I'm glad I missed it.

Are there people here searching for answers? People who don't express themselves clearly? People who ask questions that seem simple? People who express thoughts that seem loony? Sure. Welcome to earth. That's humanity. Even the most simple of statements can add value to our spiritual quest.

I would also caution (not you specifically, but anyone/everyone, myself included) against the following attitude:
Post agrees with my view = wise and insightful
Post disagrees with my view = shallow and foolish
It's another tendency we humans need to keep fighting.

[Anthony]

If the shoe fits...

James, TheMdC, I didn't mean to be caustic. But, as I'm sure most of us here know, sometimes the truth hurts. If the statement doesn't apply to you, then you have nothing to worry about. But you can't honestly say that the majority of posts here in the last 6-8 months have been wise or insightful, can you?


Agape

SlaveForJah

Oh...the Irony!!!
Gotta love it.

[Nightflyer]

It's relative. Drop us a link to a wiser and more insightful group of folks on a message board and I'll be glad to go there. I sometimes lurk on other boards and in my view they're all much less wise or insightful than this one.


I have searched quite a lot as well but havent found a forum like this. I just wish there were more of us here.

[TheMdC]

The alpha males on the big board think e-w and his "followers" are lunatics for giving the WT any credence whatsoever. Found some good links there, though, such as JWFacts, but I have little interest in joining any of the discussions.

[Nightflyer]

The alpha males on the big board think e-w and his "followers" are lunatics for giving the WT any credence whatsoever. Found some good links there, though, such as JWFacts, but I have little interest in joining any of the discussions.

Which big board do you mean?

[Cephalon]

I would also caution (not you specifically, but anyone/everyone, myself included) against the following attitude:
Post agrees with my view = wise and insightful
Post disagrees with my view = shallow and foolish
It's another tendency we humans need to keep fighting.

Yep. another human tendency :y:

[Utuna]

The alpha males on the big board think e-w and his "followers" are lunatics for giving the WT any credence whatsoever. Found some good links there, though, such as JWFacts, but I have little interest in joining any of the discussions.

Dear TheMdC,

This is a general statement, not directly destined to you! ;)

1) I'm not a follower of Robert, and never will. Nevertheless, I respect him for the truthful biblical explanations he gave us. I don't always agree with him and always try to explain why.

2) I'll give anyone any credence (WT, Robert, anyone else here on this DB.) as long as opinions have thorough biblical basis or reasonings. Yes, the WT is wrong on many issues but also true on many others. If we're honest, we need to put things in perspective.

The WT is wrong on many things?

Yes, it is! So what? What's next?

Is the rejection and the endless bashing of the WT the climax of our personal path towards spiritual maturity? Is it an end in itself?

I don't think so!

---------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Nightflyer]

I dont think that anyone here thinks that s/he is a follower of Robert. If thats the case, then that person has a serious problem..

[Eyes & Ears]

Dear TheMdC,

This is a general statement, not directly destined to you! ;)

1) I'm not a follower of Robert, and never will. Nevertheless, I respect him for the truthful biblical explanations he gave us. I don't always agree with him and always try to explain why.

2) I'll give anyone any credence (WT, Robert, anyone else here on this DB.) as long as opinions have thorough biblical basis or reasonings. Yes, the WT is wrong on many issues but also true on many others. If we're honest, we need to put things in perspective.

The WT is wrong on many things?

Yes, it is! So what? What's next?

Is the rejection and the endless bashing of the WT the climax of our personal path towards spiritual maturity? Is it an end in itself?

I don't think so!

---------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton




The WT is wrong on many things?

Yes, it is! So what? What's next?

Is the rejection and the endless bashing of the WT the climax of our personal path towards spiritual maturity? Is it an end in itself?



Thank you for this Tuna, I will certainly take this to heart, especially on topics that get next to my emotions, and perhaps may cause my blood pressure:) to rise. I guess sometimes prayers and stopping to really think before we post may help. :mellow:

E & E

[TheMdC]

To make sure I'm being clear, I put "followers" in " " to show that that's how I've seen people on this board (and people in general who read Robert's stuff and for the most part believe it) referred to by people on other boards. We know we're not followers.

And by "big board" I'd rather not name it because I don't really recommend anyone going there, but it's clearly the biggest and most active JW/ex-JW board on the Internet with many many posters and posts, especially in comparison to our little community here.

[SlaveForJah]

1) I'm not a follower of Robert, and never will. Nevertheless, I respect him for the truthful biblical explanations he gave us. I don't always agree with him and always try to explain why.

2) I'll give anyone any credence (WT, Robert, anyone else here on this DB.) as long as opinions have thorough biblical basis or reasonings. Yes, the WT is wrong on many issues but also true on many others. If we're honest, we need to put things in perspective.

Ahhh. So then credence in opinion is based upon biblical foundation and sound reasoning? So, why is it that I am out of line for wanting to see the same thing?

And TheMdC, I'm not impressed by big words or flowery speeches. It's the content of posts I'm concerned with.

Paul's words: "11 Concerning him we have much to say and hard to be explained, since YOU have become dull in YOUR hearing. 12 For, indeed, although YOU ought to be teachers in view of the time, YOU again need someone to teach YOU from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God; and YOU have become such as need milk, not solid food. 13 For everyone that partakes of milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their perceptive powers trained to distinguish both right and wrong." - Hebrews 5:11-14

Would you say those words are caustic?



Is the rejection and the endless bashing of the WT the climax of our personal path towards spiritual maturity? Is it an end in itself?

I don't think so!

I agree, there is little point in endless bashing. But sometimes, calling a spade a spade is the catalyst to spiritual catharsis. And isn't the whole point to be on a path towards spiritual maturity?

But a good portion of what is discussed here is leprechauns and lizard people; alien visitations and Snuffleupagus.

What's wrong with wanting to come to a BIBLE DISCUSSION FORUM and see topics about BIBLE DISCUSSIONS? Didn't Paul urge us to "press on to maturity"?


Agape

SlaveForJah

[shikinah]

"leprechauns and lizard people"
You must be speaking about David Ikes site, never seen that on here:p

[SlaveForJah]

"leprechauns and lizard people"
You must be speaking about David Ikes site, never seen that on here:p

Hmmm...that's odd. I could've sworn that this thread (http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2727) was "on here". Specifically, I could've sworn that David Icke 'was the first to cause your stumbling'?

Maybe you just forgot.


Agape

SlaveForJah

[shikinah]

Hmmm...that's odd. I could've sworn that this thread (http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2727) was "on here". Specifically, I could've sworn that David Icke 'was the first to cause your stumbling'?

Maybe you just forgot.


Agape

SlaveForJah

Its good to be on the ball, your correct but it wasn't a conversation or thread based on these subjects, they came up as a WARNING to any one who may have had intentions or were reading his books. It was to prevent them from coming to any harm. Many who are stumbled and fall away succumb to many of satans snares, none of us are infallible. Jesus spent most of his time casting out demons, he knew their influence and he lovingly spoke about it in the bible. We are living in 2009 and they are more active than ever, just because its not written in the watch tower and you cannot relate to it doesn't make it wrong.
It was suppose to be a LOVING gesture.:)