WT Study for October 25, 2009

[James]

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[shikinah]

I havnt read all this magazine "we should love those who Jehovah loves?"
Who does Jehovah love, only Jehovah witnesses? no wonder the pompous mentally among so many J.W's is rife.. Wasn't Jesus the image of Jehovah, did not Jesus love those he helped or was it all just to prove he was the messiah? I dont think so.. and it comes across like its talking to unruly children who Jesus hasn't yet died for.

Shikinah

[James]

no wonder the pompous mentally among so many J.W's is rife..
Shikinah

Gotta love the duplicity of the wtbts. Obviously by the first picture, they wouldn't meet JW's standard of appearance today.



Wasn't Jesus the image of Jehovah...


Does that mean Jehovah has a beard also:confused:

[shikinah]

Gotta love the duplicity of the wtbts. Obviously by the first picture, they wouldn't meet JW's standard of appearance today.



Does that mean Jehovah has a beard also:confused:

Well with those beards they wouldnt make it through the kingdom Hall doors,
and Jesus isnt portrayed with white wooly hair, so who knows:rolleyes:

[SWORDOFJAH]

I havnt read all this magazine "we should love those who Jehovah loves?"
Who does Jehovah love, only Jehovah witnesses? no wonder the pompous mentally among so many J.W's is rife.. Wasn't Jesus the image of Jehovah, did not Jesus love those he helped or was it all just to prove he was the messiah? I dont think so.. and it comes across like its talking to unruly children who Jesus hasn't yet died for.

Shikinah
Hello perharps you should know that we are counsel to love everyone,even to pray for our enemies. Otherwise why do you think JW'S go and take from their tim to preach and help others gain knowledge of Jehovah and his purposes? Love my friend.

[TheMdC]

Hello perharps you should know that we are counsel to love everyone,even to pray for our enemies.
That counsel is nowhere in this article, sadly. According to this article "love who Jehovah loves" is defined as avoiding bad associations who could influence us to go bad. The goal is to become friends of God by buddying up to those who are already his friends and avoiding those who are not.

The ugly implication is that Jehovah's love for people is based on their worship of him. So much for agape.

[Jinnvisible]

love everyone,even to pray for our enemies. Otherwise why do you think JW'S go and take from their tim to preach.

You have to be a little bit carefull with this.

The Wtbts through its lay terminology and sometimes insensibility has at times guided the notion that to preach God's word to those whom you don`t know, is to love your enemies.

This reasoning actually neccesitates that you consider people your enemies, before you ever meet them, or have any dealings with them. This can be qualified logically by taking overviews and applying them in a personal sense.

Such as considering that the scriptures teach,the people of the world to be in darkness generally (as an overview).Yet you are not meant to treat people on a personal level as if they are `dark and evil` simply becaue you never met them before. It is an unwarranted reappropriation what the bible otherwise describes as being `unduely negative`.

There are good aspects of the study artical especiallythe conscience as a `moral compass`. That is a usefull expression.

[Desert Blossom]

Who does Jehovah love?

(John 3:16-18) . . .“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. 18 He that exercises faith in him is not to be judged. He that does not exercise faith has been judged already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

Who are we supposed to love?

(Mark 12:30-31) . . .you must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength.’ 31 The second is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

(Luke 6:27-28) 27 “But I say to YOU who are listening, Continue to love YOUR enemies, to do good to those hating YOU, 28 to bless those cursing YOU, to pray for those who are insulting YOU.

(Luke 6:32-33) 32 “And if YOU love those loving YOU, of what credit is it to YOU? For even the sinners love those loving them. 33 And if YOU do good to those doing good to YOU, really of what credit is it to YOU? Even the sinners do the same.

[SWORDOFJAH]

Good morning.


Today the study is a gem. What a reminder. (Jude 21) 21 keep yourselves in God’s love. . .

Jehovah's undeserved kindness is evident in his dealings with those who love him. Through his inspired Word he shows what he requires of them. This study shows what we must do to be upbuilt spiritually and to ‘keep ourselves in God’s love.’

[FutureMan]

Here is a scripture worth much meditation.

Ephesians 3 [LITV]
14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 of whom every family in Heaven and on earth is named,
16 that He may give you, according to the riches of His glory, by His power to become mighty in the inward man through His Spirit,
17 that through faith Christ may dwell in your hearts, having been rooted and founded in love,
18 that you may be given strength to grasp, with all the saints, what is the breadth and length and depth and height,
19 and to know the surpassing knowledge and love of Christ, that you may be filled to all the fullness of God.
20 Now to Him being able to do exceedingly above all that we ask or think, according to the power working in us,
21 to Him be the glory in the church in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.


Ephesians 4 [LITV]
1 Then I, the prisoner in the Lord, exhort you to walk worthily of the calling in which you were called,
2 with all humility and meekness, with long-suffering, bearing with one another in love,
3 being eager to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body and one Spirit, even as you also were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all, the One above all and through all and in you all.
7 But to each one of us was given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

[Eyes & Ears]

Here is a scripture worth much meditation.

Ephesians 3 [LITV]
14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 of whom every family in Heaven and on earth is named,
16 that He may give you, according to the riches of His glory, by His power to become mighty in the inward man through His Spirit,
17 that through faith Christ may dwell in your hearts, having been rooted and founded in love,
18 that you may be given strength to grasp, with all the saints, what is the breadth and length and depth and height,
19 and to know the surpassing knowledge and love of Christ, that you may be filled to all the fullness of God.
20 Now to Him being able to do exceedingly above all that we ask or think, according to the power working in us,
21 to Him be the glory in the church in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.


Ephesians 4 [LITV]
1 Then I, the prisoner in the Lord, exhort you to walk worthily of the calling in which you were called,
2 with all humility and meekness, with long-suffering, bearing with one another in love,
3 being eager to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body and one Spirit, even as you also were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all, the One above all and through all and in you all.
7 But to each one of us was given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.



Morning FM,

It's always encouraging to see these loving reminders. Thank you so much.

E & E

[shikinah]

Thank you so much futureman what wonderful scriptures, ones which give you hope and encouragement. The teaching is so simple, but man makes it complicated, there will only ever be one real church and that's the acknowledgement of Jehovah through his son Christ Jesus, knowing Jesus and taking him into our hearts he is alive within us we are the stones of his spiritual Temple which exists based on all those of whom he has called, that's all that will be standing when every other stone building no longer exists.

Shikinah

[The Way]

¶ 15-16
Furthermore, Jehovah usually exercises his authority through imperfect humans whom he entrusts with responsibility to care for his people. If we were to rebel against those humans, how would Jehovah view our actions?—Read 1 Thessalonians 5:12, 13
For example, when the Israelites murmured and rebelled against Moses, Jehovah took their rebellious actions personally, as directed against him. (Num. 14:26-27) God has not changed. If we were ever to rebel against those he has put in positions of authority, we would be rebelling against him!
Human history and the warning examples in the Scripture show us that authority of imperfect humans over other humans usually had unsatisfactory and often downright disastrous results. (Eccl. 8:9)
When the Israelites pleaded to have a visible, human king ruling over them, Jehovah responded to Samuel: "It is not you whom they have rejected, but it is I whom they have rejected from being king over them. In accord with all their doings that they have done from the day of my bringing them up out of Egypt until this day in that they kept leaving me and serving other gods, that is the way they are doing also to you." (1 Samuel 8:7-8) If you were living as a common Israelite under the authority of one of the many kings of Israel or Judah who "continued to do do what was bad in the eyes of Jehovah" and "caused Israel to sin" and "went walking in the way of their forefathers" who had left a bad example and "kept offending Jehovah" and "filled Jerusalem with innocent blood" and "went following vain idols" and let "dungy idols and disgusting things" appear in the land,...(sigh)... you'd better were very careful to follow the guidance and example of that one put in a position of authority, yes even nominally sitting on Jehovah's throne!
In Jesus' time the ones put in positions of religious authority were if fact blind guides. (Matt. 15:14) These ones also thought they were seated in the seat of Moses. (Matt. 23:2)
Were Peter and the other apostles rebelling against the highest Jewish religious body or authority in their time? Their rightful answer was: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.The God of our forefathers raised up Jesus, whom YOU slew, hanging him upon a stake. God exalted this one as Chief Agent and Savior to his right hand, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are witnesses of these matters, and so is the holy spirit, which God has given to those obeying him as ruler.” (Acts 5:29-32)
Was Paul rebelling against Peter when he "resisted" or "stood against him face to face, because he stood condemned"? (Gal. 2:11, NWT footnote)
So far for Jehovah 'usually exercising his authority through imperfect humans'.

Moses was an extraordinary man of faith and his role was exceptional. Even his successor Joshua did not enjoy the same privilege of speaking with Jehovah "face to face" and being Jehovah's immediate spokesperson.

"Although appointed as Moses’ successor, Joshua was not to be like him in knowing Jehovah “face to face.” Not all of Moses’ dignity was transferred to Joshua but only that which was needed for him to have the respect of the nation. Rather than the more direct communication Moses had been able to enjoy with Jehovah, “face to face” as it were, Joshua was to consult the high priest, to whom had been entrusted the Urim and Thummim by which the divine will could be ascertained.—Nu 27:18-23; De 1:37, 38; 31:3; 34:9, 10." — it-2 p. 114 Joshua

Moses' role is not to be compared with the tasks of imperfect humans serving within the Christian congregation. Moses was an antitype of Jesus Christ as the Logos, God's spokesperson and the one through whom God gave a new "law" and new commands and above all undeserved kindness. (John 1:16-17) Moses not only foreshadowed Jesus in his ministry on earth but even in his heavenly role since 33 CE. Christ is still God's Word and will manifest himself as such in the near future. (Rev. 19:13)
Indeed, Christians listen to the voice of truth of their good Shepherd and king, not to other, human voices. (Matt. 17:5; John 10:1-9, 27; John 18:37)

So the comparison between Jehovah's authority and the authority as exercised by imperfect humans, as well as the comparison of the role of Moses with the role of elders, is very warped.

(Ephesians 5:21-27) Be in subjection to one another in fear of Christ. 22 Let wives be in subjection to their husbands as to the Lord, 23 because a husband is head of his wife as the Christ also is head of the congregation, he being a savior of [this] body. 24 In fact, as the congregation is in subjection to the Christ, so let wives also be to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, continue loving YOUR wives, just as the Christ also loved the congregation and delivered up himself for it, 26 that he might sanctify it, cleansing it with the bath of water by means of the word, 27 that he might present the congregation to himself in its splendor, not having a spot or a wrinkle or any of such things, but that it should be holy and without blemish.


(1 Corinthians 11:3) But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.

There is NO OTHER "head", no human hierarchy of "authority", no chain of control/command/orders BETWEEN Christian men and women and the Christ in spiritual matters. (Christians are in relative subjection to human governments and authorities what secular laws is concerned.) "Authority" is being confused here with "responsibility to serve". If we comprehend under "authority" an absolute, blind obedience, subservience and allegiance we surely are on the wrong track. Unfortunately, Brooklyn is well on its way to create their own version of "papacy", with their own "Congregation for the Doctrine"—or for the Propaganda— complete with "cardinals" and "bishops" whose Society appointed position and even their daily bread depends on obeying their superior bosses and whistling their tunes, whether they always like it or not, whether they personally fully agree or not. He who pays the piper calls the tune...

(Romans 6:16) Do YOU not know that if YOU keep presenting yourselves to anyone as slaves to obey him, YOU are slaves of him because YOU obey him, either of sin with death in view or of obedience with righteousness in view?

(Galatians 1:10) Is it, in fact, men I am now trying to persuade or God? Or am I seeking to please men? If I were yet pleasing men, I would not be Christ’s slave.

(Galatians 5:1) For such freedom Christ set us free. Therefore stand fast, and do not let yourselves be confined again in a yoke of slavery.


(2 Corinthians 1:24) Not that we are the masters over YOUR faith, but we are fellow workers for YOUR joy, for it is by [YOUR] faith that YOU are standing.

Each Christian will 'stand or fall to his own master', not to other human beings. Moreover, he or she can be confident he or she will be made to stand, because God's power will make him stand firmly in his own faith, in his own right. (Rom. 14:4)

Thinking in terms of "authority" and demanding other Christians to obey you is a sign of spiritual weakness anyway, of a thinking pattern molded according to this world and not according to Christ. (Matt. 20:20-28; Mark 10:35-45) How often do we read in the Bible Jesus hammering into his disciples "You all have to obey me, because *I* am after all the Anointed, *I* am the one chosen by Jehovah and *I* am exercising Jehovah's authority here"? Was this the way he taught his disciples and his own model of conduct?

(Matthew 20:25-28, New American Standard Bible)
25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. 26 "It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, 27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

(Matthew 23:8-12) But YOU, do not YOU be called Rabbi, for one is YOUR teacher, whereas all YOU are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone YOUR father on earth, for one is YOUR Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called ‘leaders,’ for YOUR Leader is one, the Christ. 11 But the greatest one among YOU must be YOUR minister. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Because true Christians are longing for the loving and righteous rule of God's kingdom instead of any form of human rulership, they happily look up to their king, Lord, and High Priest, the glorified Jesus Christ, and not to fellow sinful and imperfect men.

(Psalm 146:3) Do not put YOUR trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs.

(Hebrews 4:14-16) Seeing, therefore, that we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold onto [our] confessing of [him]. 15 For we have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin.16 Let us, therefore, approach with freeness of speech to the throne of undeserved kindness, that we may obtain mercy and find undeserved kindness for help at the right time.

(Hebrews 7:26, 28-8:1) For such a high priest as this was suitable for us, loyal, guileless, undefiled, separated from the sinners, and become higher than the heavens. . . . 28 for the Law appoints men high priests having weakness, but the word of the sworn oath that came after the Law appoints a Son, who is perfected forever. 8Now as to the things being discussed this is the main point: We have such a high priest as this, and he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a public servant of the holy place and of the true tent, which Jehovah put up, and not man.

True Christians are no "men pleasers," performing "eye-service"—or lip service, for that matter— towards mere mortal men, but are "as Christ's slaves, doing the will of God whole-souled." (Eph. 6:6) Of course they will want to display a spirit of cooperation with others who have the very same aim, in particular to "be yielding under" those who take heavy spiritual responsibilities upon themselves within the group or congregation. (Heb. 13:17, NWT footnote) For such ones have the Scriptural responsibility to be "working hard among YOU and presiding over YOU in [the] Lord." (1 Thess. 5:12) This implies having the same view on "authority" as the Lord Jesus Christ has taught us and demonstrated by his own example. And to work hard to gather and keep the sheep in the Lord and to perform their spiritual duties in the way of Christ. Ideally speaking, they should serve as "positive catalysts" for spiritual growth and maturity, or as "coaches" in the faith to use a popular modern term; not as masters over the faith of others, and not as congregational / company "managers".

CONCLUSION

So Christians take heed of the advice and encouragement of elders in their congregation and other servants insofar as it helps them to serve Jehovah and Christ better; and to the extent it is actually sound Scriptural and rightly applied advice, education and instruction. We will want to follow their example insofar these men are indeed following Christ themselves. (1 Cor. 11:1; Phil. 3:17) For that we will be grateful and having respect, and the Master Jesus Christ will surely reward those who are working hard and sincerely to serve their brothers and sisters well and to the best of their abilities.

[billy2]

good post the way

when one looks closer at the position of Moses we see he was to find men in the congregaton of Isreal who could sort out matters with the people - if there were judgements or diputes or cases of injustice - so i presume these men could be likened to the elders of the present day congregations with the head being the Greater Moses Jesus CHrist - so if one of the members of the congregations has a problem then the member should be able to approach the elders for help

the problem i have with the wts always refering to the complaining of the mana is it leaves one feeling like they cant express themselves freely if they observe unscriptural situations because if they say anything its like they are being ungreatful for Jehovahs provisions - it seems this manna inscident is being used as a manipulation tool to control the b&s feeness of speech

[imjustaskin]

Way, thank you for your well-written and reasoned post. Whenever they compare Moses position to the elders having authority, I always have known that can't be right, but your post gives the scriptural and logical support.

Thank you!

[TheMdC]

Great points, The Way.

I brought out a few points to my wife after the meeting contrasting Moses and the 12 apostles with the modern-day GB and elders.

Moses was chosen directly by God, "face to face" as TheWay points out, and he was given miraculous powers to verify his selection.

The 12 were chosen directly by Christ, literally face to face, and they also were given miraculous powers to verify their selection.

The modern day leaders of WT "claim" direct selection by God and Christ but display nothing that could possibly verify this selection.

[shikinah]

Only time will verify this selection, if the false prophesies and pyramid head stone are anything to go by, we will need all the faith which is available. The light is getting brighter which will also reveal that which has been concealed.

[Eyes & Ears]

Great points, The Way.

I brought out a few points to my wife after the meeting contrasting Moses and the 12 apostles with the modern-day GB and elders.

Moses was chosen directly by God, "face to face" as TheWay points out, and he was given miraculous powers to verify his selection.

The 12 were chosen directly by Christ, literally face to face, and they also were given miraculous powers to verify their selection.

The modern day leaders of WT "claim" direct selection by God and Christ but display nothing that could possibly verify this selection.


What was her response TMDC?

E & E

[Eyes & Ears]

CONCLUSION

So Christians take heed of the advice and encouragement of elders in their congregation and other servants insofar as it helps them to serve Jehovah and Christ better; and to the extent it is actually sound Scriptural and rightly applied advice, education and instruction. We will want to follow their example insofar these men are indeed following Christ themselves. (1 Cor. 11:1; Phil. 3:17) For that we will be grateful and having respect, and the Master Jesus Christ will surely reward those who are working hard and sincerely to serve their brothers and sisters well and to the best of their abilities.





Oh what a joyful time it will be when we no longer will have to deal with these things, trying to sort all these issues out as well as the awful ugly e/affects that Satan has on everything today.

Jehovah is allowing many things to take place inside his household, and I know we will be very happy when we can all praise Jehovah in spirit and in total truth and reap the benefits of Rev 21:1-4, without looking to any human beings to help us serve Jehovah and Christ better. Until that time my prayer is that we remain firm and all are able to sort out what Jehovah is and is not saying to us by means of his HOLY SPIRIT. Times ahead will be truly ugly.

I now understand the importance of building myself up, spending time with my heavenly father because neither I nor anyone else when this system crashes and all ugliness breaks loose knows where we will be, either alone, separated from family or what. If we do not have a real relationship with Jehovah and not equipped to make sound decisions based on Jehovah's Word, we will be surely messed up looking for others to take us by the hand and lead us.

I pray the children of many of Jehovah's people are prepared, for surely some will be separated from family members. (Daniel & his companions)

We best be looking to Jehovah, but as has been expressed here showing respect to THE ARRANGEMENT THAT JEHOVAH HAS ALLOWED FOR NOW UNTIL Jehovah shows us different.


Revelation 22:20

"He that bears witness of these things says, Yes; I am coming quickly

" Amen! Come, Lord Jesus."

MAY WE CONTINUE TO HOLD ON TIGHT AS THE COMING DAYS WILL BECOME MORE CHALLENING AND CRITICAL LUKE 21:28

Thank you The Way very much. This thread and the responses made me think of many things, and what I need to still work on while Jehovah is showing his continue patience and love.


2Peter 3:9

E & E

[TheMdC]

What was her response TMDC?

E & E

It was pretty positive. I didn't conduct the conversation in a critical way, more of an "isn't this an interesting little point?" sort of way. And we concluded by agreeing that because there is no outward evidence of their appointment by God, we need to take everything the brothers or the magazines say with a Boerean attitude, examine the scriptures, and come to a Bible-based conclusion, rather than blindly follow as we're asked to do.

[Eyes & Ears]

It was pretty positive. I didn't conduct the conversation in a critical way, more of an "isn't this an interesting little point?" sort of way. And we concluded by agreeing that because there is no outward evidence of their appointment by God, we need to take everything the brothers or the magazines say with a Boerean attitude, examine the scriptures, and come to a Bible-based conclusion, rather than blindly follow as we're asked to do.


That's great TMDC that you can share little things the way you do.
That was wonderful.

Best to you both.

E & E