Who (or what) is Babylon the Great?

[Juan23]

I know this has been discussed a few times on this board, but I was reading Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was written a name, a mystery: "Babylon the Great, the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth."

Also I read from the Insight book:
A further distinguishing characteristic of Babylon the Great is her drunkenness, she being pictured as “drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus.” (Re 17:4,*6; 18:24; 19:1,*2) She thus is the spiritual counterpart of the ancient city of Babylon, expressing the same enmity toward the true people of God. Significantly, it was to the charge of religious leaders that Jesus laid the responsibility for “all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah.” While those words were addressed to religious leaders from among Jesus’ own race, the Jewish nation, and while persecution against Jesus’ followers was particularly intense from that sector for a time, history shows that thereafter the opposition to genuine Christianity came from other sources (the Jews themselves suffering considerable persecution).—Mt 23:29-35.

BTG is supposed to be the entire world empire of false religion. With what is happening in the org are we becoming enmeshed into BTG?:(

[Steadfast]

Hi Brother Juan,

Good to see you. :)

If you start with the WT's involvement with the UN in 1991, which has not ended by the way, I would say they have made themselves part of Babylon the Great.

My reasoning on this is that the United Nations is the 'mother' of the one world religion, which is also pictured as Babylon the Great. The roots of course are in Babel.

Love,

Steadfast

[Desert Blossom]

I know this has been discussed a few times on this board, but I was reading Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was written a name, a mystery: "Babylon the Great, the mother of the harlots and of the disgusting things of the earth."

Also I read from the Insight book:
A further distinguishing characteristic of Babylon the Great is her drunkenness, she being pictured as “drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus.” (Re 17:4,*6; 18:24; 19:1,*2) She thus is the spiritual counterpart of the ancient city of Babylon, expressing the same enmity toward the true people of God. Significantly, it was to the charge of religious leaders that Jesus laid the responsibility for “all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah.” While those words were addressed to religious leaders from among Jesus’ own race, the Jewish nation, and while persecution against Jesus’ followers was particularly intense from that sector for a time, history shows that thereafter the opposition to genuine Christianity came from other sources (the Jews themselves suffering considerable persecution).—Mt 23:29-35.

BTG is supposed to be the entire world empire of false religion. With what is happening in the org are we becoming enmeshed into BTG?:(

If the past is any indication of the future, then it seems likely that the leaders of the WTB&TS may be leading the pack when it comes to persecuting the true anointed and getting drunk on their blood.

[FutureMan]

Hello all, here is my slant on this based on some research that I have done.

Babylon the Great is referred to as a woman as in Revelation etc.

Revelation 17 [litv]
3 And he carried me away into a desert, by the Spirit. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, filled with names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and being gilded

with gold and precious stone and pearls, having a golden cup in her

hand, filled with abominations and unclean things of her fornication.
5 And on her forehead was a name having been written: Mystery, Babylon

the Great, the Mother of the Harlots and of the Abominations of the Earth.
6 And I saw the woman being drunk from the blood of the saints, and from the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. And I marveled, seeing her, with a great marveling.



In Galatians 4, Jerusalem is also referred to as a woman in two different situations.

25 for Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, and she slaves with her children),
26 but the Jerusalem from above is free, who is the mother of us all;

So here we see two different types of women mentioned here.

One fleshly in symbolism representing Jerusalem who was under the the Mosaic covenant, and she and her children are in slavery, being born in the manner of flesh.

The Jerusalem above which is incorporating the New covenant and represents freedom which also sets her children the Christians free, being born in the manner of the Spirit.

Now from this comparison we can look for the opposite of the Great Harlot, Babylon the Great.

God's heavenly Woman as mentioned in Revelation 12, 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars,..


Now God's woman which I understand to be God's heavenly divine arrangement of things including the new covenant of which her children are born by holy spirit and the Kingdom is born.

God's Woman also represents a perfect system that is free from corruption and sin, that will set up a perfect system here on earth, which is already ordained in heaven with Jesus as head of that Kingdom as the principle part of it.

Now it is my opinion that the other woman who is the harlot, is Satan's woman, and exists in all the world where Christians reside, in areas that were once dominated by the Holy Roman Empire, but have come under the influence of his system of things, which incorporates all religions that have connections to Babylonish teachings, such as the hellfire doctrine, immortal soul,worship of the cross and other icons, Christmas, Easter, politics, and the commercial activity, such as Big business, world trade and the stock markets, etc.

In essence, as most of the countries are inhabited by Christendom along with other non Christian religions, then it can be said that she has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.

She also has the mark of the beast's name relating to gross imperfection.

Also most of Christendom religions are heavily involved in bloodshed as a result of wars that are supported by the various governments.

The true Christians who refuse to be involved are persecuted, by imprisonment, and torture and even death.


In some Christian religions you are accused of apostasy or heresy because you do not go along with all their teachings.

In some Muslim countries some Christians are even now imprisoned or put to death for not accepting the teachings of Islam.



Now really all those under the influence of this woman are being misled, corrupted and enslaved by her.

The bulk of this corruption stems from the western countries, that include America, England, Europe, Russia, Australia, ETC.

Unfortunately among those ones who come under the influence of her, are
some of God's people who have not yet come out of her and her system.
In fact the bulk of god's people live in the domain of one of her most
corrupt territories, America.

The headquarters of the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses resides in
the area of one of the most corrupt cities of the world (New York).

The only way to flee from this entity is to completely flee from this Babylonish system.

That is to not be involved in any activity or functions relating to this woman of Satan.

As Jesus stated to his followers in John 17:14,(KJV), I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

It is not possible for most Christians to move anywhere else or go of the planet, but as Jesus stated that Christians live amongst this world but have little involvement in this worlds activities except what they need to do to make a living and survive.

But they should not involve themselves with any of the worlds pagan Christian celebrations, such as Christmas which is also a worldwide commercial enterprise, they should not be involved in big business that is part of this greedy system of things, and neither should they be
involved in her political affairs, or legal system.

Unfortunately many Christians today are deeply involved with all this.

Many are engrossed in the stock markets, which sponsor greediness and many are involved in world trade, that squeezes out many third world countries from it's scene which prevents them from feeding their people who are literally dying of starvation.

Much of Christendom have a lot of investments revolving around the stock and share markets.

Some Christian religions make exorbitant amount of money from the sale of it's property using the real estate markets and the investment resources of this world to the full to achieve it's ends.

Most of Christendom's religion have also sought legal recognition from the various governments and their legal systems as an established organized religion or an organization.

This they do even though already they have Christ's authority to worship as Christians and make disciples in there individual communities, but still they seek approval of the various governments to operate as a religion and do not put their trust in God.

Here is what the scriptures say in (Acts 5) [LITV] 27 And bringing them, they stood in the sanhedrin. And the high priest asked them,
28 saying, Did we not command you by a command that you not teach in this name? And, behold, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine and intend to bring on us the blood of this man.
29 But answering Peter and the apostles said, It is right to obey God rather than man.

Here is what Jesus stated about there worship and the preaching work.

Matthew 10 [LITV]
16 Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore, be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.
17 But beware of men. For they will betray you to sanhedrins, and they will flog you in their synagogues.
18 And also you will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them and to the nations.
19 But when they deliver you up, do not be anxious how or what you should say, for it is given to you in that hour what you should say.
20 For you are not the ones speaking, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
21 But brother will betray brother to death, and the father his child.

And children will rise up against parents and will put them to death.
22 And you will be hated by all on account of My name, but the one enduring to the end shall be kept safe.
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For truly I say to you, In no way will you have finished the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.

So as stated in the Lord's prayer, God's will, will be done both in the heavens and on the earth.

In the heavens will be the 144,000 kings and priests made up of God's anointed ones and on the earth will be a completely new system, that will replace the present wicked system of things currently in control of Satan.

[Jeshurun]

Just my opinion, but as time marches on towards the end of this system, it seems to me that Babylon the Great is not only the religions, but the whole socio-political-economic system. The entire thing is corrupt through and through and needs to go!

I also think it has an internal meaning, inside our minds and hearts. We've all been harlots!

Love,
Jesh

[TheMdC]

Revelation gives enough clues. The merchants weep over her destruction, so she isn't the business world. The government(s) are the one(s) who destroy her, so she isn't government. A lot of the other clues point to religious activity, and these have been documented elsewhere.

So she's organized religion. Rutherford was wrong about many things but he was correct on this: Religion is a snare and a racket. The big mistake he made in this regard is he exempted his own organized religion from the equation.

John Lennon nailed it: "Imagine. . . no religion, too. Imagine all the people living life in peace..."

Organized religion has been the bane of man's existence. The pure worship "in Spirit and truth" does not depend on organizational membership. Jesus will come and make that abundantly clear soon.

[Jinnvisible]

it was to the charge of religious leaders that Jesus laid the responsibility for “all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah.” While those words were addressed to religious leaders from among Jesus’ own race, the Jewish nation,

Hi Juan.

I hope I am reading into one aspect of your enquiry properly.

There have been different intimations about the `Jewish international finance` or `The Jews` being Babylon the Great. I don’t really believe that is true. Although I’ve actually been accused here on the board of being a lover and protector of Babylon the Great simply for not accepting this interpretation. (Like not accepting that Adolph Hitler is literally Satan incarnate, some how must mean that you like or support him?)

Specifically anything Jesus said or did was in the context of the Jewish nation so its easy to typify the prophetic symbolism context for being `Israel` or ‘Jews’ in some secular way. It’s true that Israel did persecute its own prophets from the beginning. But then why in that case go outside of Israel for a mysterious symbolism using Babylon? Why not just call it Jerusalem the Great?

When Jesus was criticizing Israel he said it directly `Jerusalem you whore`.

If God meant for `the Jews` in any secular capacity (such as involvement in dodgy international banking) to be referred to as particularly evil, why then would John suddenly go all coy in this regard, and use a metaphor [such as Babylon] when Jesus said it straight out as he meant it? “Jerusalem you whore” Jesus actually stated that when Israel was a special property of God. So why would John protect the identities of international banking cartels involving non covenant Jews of the future with a mystery of mysteries? When Jesus said it straight ?

For the first century (second & third) Christians thinking about a future bastard mutant religion of Christ, as the official religion of the Roman Empire existing right up until modern times with a special relationship with the United Nations it makes more sense.

It also makes sense as to why this would be described as a ‘mystery of mysteries’ in the bible. The writers of the Greek Christian scriptures where concerned about stumbling believers. They said that even `sighing` could be damaging. So having Christianity become an official state religion compromised with many physical idols of Jesus made out of wood and gold jewlllery ECT. The Christian prophets wouldn’t really have been able to explain that to the early believers, without stumbling them.


If you consider the ‘curious case of Lyndon Larouche’ as an interesting example. He, as a public figure has been falsely accused of anti-Semitism because of his economic outlook. A completely false accusation. Shakespears ‘Merchant of Venice’ perfectly outlines the way in which Christianity itself can be misrepresented as being Anti-Semitic. Christ as the `answer` for Israel becomes Israel’s anti-thesis. The very agent through which Israel becomes null and void as a ‘special property’ is Christ. Therefore Christ registers as -the liquidator- of Israel, and you have an explanation for some of the stranger claimants upon Christ. Proponents such as Adolph Hitler and the Klu Klux Klan.

Lyndon Larouche is a very interesting subject for investigation on this level. Due to the fact he is an intelligent person he views the scope of human history and civilization in terms of `Biblical proportion`. Yet although Mr. Larouche has been falsely accused of anti –Semitism his incorporation of the bible in his world outlook especially articles of thought relating to prophetic symbolism are not really interpretive but anecdotal. When Larouche talks about The Whore of Babylon or The Tower of Babel in modern terms he isn’t really attempting to interpret prophetic scripture literally. He is using them as anecdotal references. He uses are clever and even sympathetic to the true meanings. Yet are not truly interpretive. The difference being that true interpretive work of the bible requires that you place the actual biblical meaning as the foremost concern.

So when Larouche describes the European parliament as the new Tower of Babel his usages are limited. For instance the original Tower of Babel was not built to unify all language and culture. All language was already unified and it seems was God’s pleasure that all people were as such. Nimrod built the tower as a power center and Jehovah smote it and the language to hinder the centralization of power. It doesn’t mean that Jehovah decided it was wrong for people to speak the same way, or have the same culture. It rather seems that he intended it to be that way, yet deemed it worthwhile to confuse language because of a secondary effect. I.e. The hindrance of power and technology, which is obviously not something Mr. Larouche, would wish to advertise as a fundamental aspect of this historical incident, due to his being a champion of technology. So the anecdotal value is obtained and used intelligently but it is not the fullest true understanding.

Additionally Larouche and others treat the prophetic property of `The Whore of Babylon` as anecdotal. It can be an intelligent use without being an accurate interpretation. So the fact that BTG may be identified with international banking doesn’t necessarily mean that’s what prophesy is actually describing. In the same way that it is overly simplistic to imagine that because the nation state system hinders the ultimate government of God’s enemy [i.e. a one world government,} that the nation states although by God’s authority are actually God’s expression, they are not. By way of comparison, for the civic minded, a legal system by its authority might provide defense representation for the heinously guilty by its authority, yet it doesn’t follow that a legal justice system like that has the intent to ‘support criminals’. As with Jehovah and the establishment of the nations.

Otherwise you might suggest that Jehovah loves the dollar as the dollar is important to the prevention of world fiat currency.

[SlaveForJah]

Hey Jinn,

Nice post. But I don't think Juan was espousing the idea that you so successfully debunked.

I believe that Juan was suggesting that a clue to unlocking the mysterious identity of Babylon the Great is to be found in a spiritual application of Jesus' words in Matthew 23. If we take Jesus' words to the "shepherds" of fleshly Israel and apply them to the "shepherds" of spiritual Israel, then we may be able to figure out who my be included as a part of Babylon the Great.

Babylon the Great is said to be drunk on the blood of the holy ones. I believe that this may be a fitting application to those within the current household of Jehovah that will end up being revealed as the Man of Lawlessness, those who end up being judged at Christ's arrival as the evil slaves, the tares, the weeds, the sons of the enemy.

I do not believe that the Watchtower is Babylon the Great. But I do believe that members of the Watchtower may be part of Babylon the Great. The angel does call for "my people" to come out of Babylon the Great. That indicates to me that some of those who are inside of, or a part of, Babylon the Great are indeed members of Jehovah's household.


I basically agree with the Watchtower's own interpretation of the identity of Babylon the Great, without the self-serving caveat of self-exemption.


Anyway, I think that's what Juan was getting at.


Agape

SlaveForJah

[Jinnvisible]

2 : comprehensive, universal ; especially : broad in sympathies, tastes, or interests <a catholic taste in music>

I grew up around alot of Catholic folks. I was really supprised when I asked a freind, a Catholic nurse, what exactly was the meaning of the word. They described it as meaning 'All accepting' or 'Universally accepting'.

That is exactly the protocol with the intimacies of a harlot.

Not to be mean spirited about it on a personal level. There are harlots in the bible who came to be synonymous with the nobelest aspects of God's purpose. I just found it interesting that that is what the word actually means.

The Catholic church as zenith of world wide false religion always seemed a good fit to me. It just always seemed like a better fit than the other interpretations.

[Juan23]

Thanks Jinn, interesting post. But my thoughts were not as deep as yours. I was actually thinking in a vein similar to Slave's.

Thank you brothers. I now have something to think about.

[Jinnvisible]

Thanks Jinn, interesting post. But my thoughts were not as deep as yours. I was actually thinking in a vein similar to Slave's.

Thank you brothers. I now have something to think about.

I know what you mean. My thoughts aren`t as deep as mine either.

Also SFJ's post was creeping up on me during the day.

The angel does call for "my people" to come out of Babylon the Great. That indicates to me that some of those who are inside of, or a part of, Babylon the Great are indeed members of Jehovah's household. ~ SFJ

I was thinking about the different possibilities of this. SFJ's point here is very interesting and I was trying to see if I could find a way to make it uninteresting.

I couldn`t scupper it. The conotations are intesresting for any possible scenario. This seems weird because the interesting part is a bit Captain Obvious, but it only dawned on me over a period of hours.