other sheep

[Juan23]

I have always accepted the society's explanation of the "other sheep" as the great crowd that comes out of the GT. But after comparing different translations of the bible, I think the other sheep are gentile christians.

Joh 10:16

(ASV) And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd.

(KJV) And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

(KJV+) AndG2532 otherG243 sheepG4263 I have,G2192 whichG3739 areG2076 notG3756 ofG1537 thisG5026 fold:G833 them alsoG2548 IG3165 mustG1163 bring,G71 andG2532 they shall hearG191 myG3450 voice;G5456 andG2532 there shall beG1096 oneG3391 fold,G4167 and oneG1520 shepherd.G4166

(KJVA) And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

(New World Translation) "And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.

[elihu]

hi Juan23

i have been reading john 10 for a few weeks now trying to determine what Christ was saying.
it seems too ambigious to me
he says he is the door then he says he is the shepherd
he explains about his sheep and how he will give his life for them then he mentions his other sheep, but he does not really clarify who they are, and why there are different sheep.
it is so frustrating.

i sometimes wonder if the mormons are right about the other sheep being those who inhabited the americas after having escaped out the back door of jerusalem when nebuchadnezar took Jerusalem.

elihu

[SlaveForJah]

hi Juan23

i have been reading john 10 for a few weeks now trying to determine what Christ was saying.
it seems too ambigious to me
he says he is the door then he says he is the shepherd
he explains about his sheep and how he will give his life for them then he mentions his other sheep, but he does not really clarify who they are, and why there are different sheep.
it is so frustrating.

i sometimes wonder if the mormons are right about the other sheep being those who inhabited the americas after having escaped out the back door of jerusalem when nebuchadnezar took Jerusalem.

elihu

Hello elihu and Juan23,

I am still in the ambiguous corner on this one, though I will say I lean closer to the "other sheep" being gentile Christians. The scriptures definitely testify to the existence of those whom Christ termed "other sheep", as well as being clear about an innumerable "great crowd'. What I have yet to see is any scripture that connects the two as being one and the same.

And elihu, this is also very interesting in regards to the so-called "lost tribes" spoken of in the Book of Mormon. Check out this (http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon492.htm) link. Unless Jews are secretly Asian, then the Book of Mormon is pretty well disproved. And the LDS's move of editing the introduction to the Book of Mormon without any manner of editorial notation to the reader smacks of the same kind of duplicity employed by the WT in several cases, few as well-documented as the incidence of the Bound Volume changing the original wording of the January 1, 1989 Watchtower.

Hopefully many members of the LDS will also wake up to the various and sundry lies told to them by their earthly leaders, and will be willing to submit to the Christ when he inspects those who would be his slaves.


Agape

SlaveForJah

[shikinah]

Like the Koran the book of mormon was presented by some angel the Mormon was Moroni and the Koran supposedly Gabriel, but we know these as Salman Rushdie put it "satanic verses" satan does through quite a few truths with the lie too. In John 10 Jesus is saying he is the door he is the only way, there is no alternative, trying to climb up and gaining entrance through some imposter or hired man, who cannot give them everlasting life.
Then 10:16 "And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold, those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd".
John 10:28 And I give them EVERLASTING life, and they, and they will by no means EVER BE DESTROYED, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. So these who cannot be destroyed and are granted eternity like Christ must be the anointed.
These seem to be the ones spoken of in Revelation:7:4 "And I heard the number of these who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel."
So it looks like these are all standing alive at the end or have been miraculously been resurrected like the two witnesses. These particular ones are physically linked by heritage, DNA to these 12 tribes, as it makes it clear by this scripture.
Rev9:9 "After all these things I saw, and look! a GREAT CROWD, which no man was able to number, out of ALL THE NATIONS and TRIBES and PEOPLES and TONGUES, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes and there were palm branches in their hands"

Seems quite clear to me, I cant see any confusion.

Shikinah

[elihu]

the more i read john 10 the more i see that christ was speaking of a much bigger picture than that of the wto teaching of the annointed and the GC of other sheep
however at the moment i will keep my thoughts to the question of the other sheep

firstly the wto teaches that the annointed were gathered up until 1935 but the door is still slightly open for some to leave and others to replace them, but the GC are the ones whom the gathering has been focused on since then.

of course scripture shows that the annointed are not completley gathered until Christ returns

matt 10:23

"for assuredly i say to you , you will not have gone through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man arrives"

so the question then arises who are the other sheep and when are they gathered.
are they gathered at the same time as the little flock, or later at a specific point in time?

SFJ correctly points out there is no direct evidence that christ was speaking about the GC when he spoke of the other sheep.

however i think it comes down to the scripture quoted above.
was Christ talking about the tribes of Israel being gathered up until he returned including the other sheep
or was he talking about the elect of Israel being gathered out of the tribes of Israel up until his return.

considering that all the letters of the new testament refer only to the elect i would have to say that latter is the case.
and the only other ones spoken of as having salvation by Christ are the GC and so logically they must be the other sheep who are gathered at a specific point in time after the arrival of Christ.
the visible presence of Christ empowers the 2-witnesses to proclaim the everlasting or final gospel and that is when the GC are gathered

and of course this again leads us to the central issue of the NC
because if the other sheep are gathered after the return of Christ then the NC is already fulfilled

" for as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup you proclaim the Lords death until He comes" 1 cor11,26

so in my understanding it comes down to this

if we believe that the other sheep are gathered alongside the annointed from the time of christ till his return, either as other sheep seperate from from the 144k or as the gentile section of the 144k flock then all must be in the NC.

but if the other sheep are the GC that are gathered at a specific point in time after the return of the Lord, then only the little flock are directly purchased by the NC.

i can only find scriptural support for the latter
so once again the WTO is correct with its doctrine but its prophesy of timing is dramatically misaligned.

elihu

[Jinnvisible]

Hello elihu and Juan23,

I am still in the ambiguous corner on this one, though I will say I lean closer to the "other sheep" being gentile Christians. The scriptures definitely testify to the existence of those whom Christ termed "other sheep", as well as being clear about an innumerable "great crowd'. What I have yet to see is any scripture that connects the two as being one and the same.



I checked this out a while ago. I came to the conclusion that the interpretations upon this doctrinal understanding are a bit grabby.

I find this a real shame. Its seems that the Watchtower does not trust that what they say with be accepted so anything that can possibly support the position is employed to that end. Grabbed at. I don`t believe that qualifies as handling the word of God properly.

Even employing the term little flock for the elect, does not seem to neccesitate the `other sheep` doctrine.

The acceptance of the gentiles as the other sheep does not mean the rejection of the literalcy of 144 000. Niether does it mean the rejection of the two destinies perspective.

I looked for my research and couldn`t find it but I might go through it again because the evidence seems pretty convincing. From memory the whole context is a juxtaposition against the pharisees. I think if you go and look at the passage the implication by Christ is how far of the mark the Pharisees really are.

The Pharisees tendancy to look down on `typical` covenant Jews suggests the impossible likelyhood that they could even realise that the Messiah could be looking to 'the nations' for believers and followers.

[Jinnvisible]

*** Rbi8 John 9:13-10:19 ***

13 They led the once-blind man himself to the Pharisees. 14 Incidentally it was Sabbath on the day that Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes. 15 This time, therefore, the Pharisees also took up asking him how he gained sight. He said to them: "He put a clay upon my eyes, and I washed and have sight." 16 Therefore some of the Pharisees began to say: "This is not a man from God, because he does not observe the Sabbath." Others began to say: "How can a man that is a sinner perform signs of that sort?" So there was a division among them. 17 Hence they said to the blind man again: "What do you say about him, seeing that he opened your eyes?" The [man] said: "He is a prophet."

18 However, the Jews did not believe concerning him that he had been blind and had gained sight, until they called the parents of the man that gained sight. 19 And they asked them: "Is this YOUR son who YOU say was born blind? How, then, is it he sees at present?" 20 Then in answer his parents said: "We know that this is our son and that he was born blind. 21 But how it is he now sees we do not know, or who opened his eyes we do not know. ASK him. He is of age. He must speak for himself." 22 His parents said these things because they were in fear of the Jews, for the Jews had already come to an agreement that, if anyone confessed him as Christ, he should get expelled from the synagogue. 23 This is why his parents said: "He is of age. QUESTION him."

24 Therefore a second time they called the man that had been blind and said to him: "Give glory to God; we know that this man is a sinner." 25 In turn he answered: "Whether he is a sinner I do not know. One thing I do know, that, whereas I was blind, I see at present." 26 Therefore they said to him: "What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?" 27 He answered them: "I told YOU already, and yet YOU did not listen. Why do YOU want to hear it again? YOU do not want to become his disciples also, do YOU?" 28 At this they reviled him and said: "You are a disciple of that [man], but we are disciples of Moses. 29 We know that God has spoken to Moses; but as for this [man], we do not know where he is from." 30 In answer the man said to them: "This certainly is a marvel, that YOU do not know where he is from, and yet he opened my eyes. 31 We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is God-fearing and does his will, he listens to this one. 32 From of old it has never been heard that anyone opened the eyes of one born blind. 33 If this [man] were not from God, he could do nothing at all." 34 In answer they said to him: "You were altogether born in sins, and yet are you teaching us?" And they threw him out!

35 Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and, on finding him, he said: "Are you putting faith in the Son of man?" 36 The [man] answered: "And who is he, sir, that I may put faith in him?" 37 Jesus said to him: "You have seen him and, besides, he that is speaking with you is that one." 38 Then he said: "I do put faith [in him], Lord." And he did obeisance to him. 39 And Jesus said: "For [this] judgment I came into this world: that those not seeing might see and those seeing might become blind." 40 Those of the Pharisees who were with him heard these things, and they said to him: "We are not blind also, are we?" 41 Jesus said to them: "If YOU were blind, YOU would have no sin. But now YOU say, ‘We see.’ YOUR sin remains."

10 "Most truly I say to YOU, He that does not enter into the sheepfold through the door but climbs up some other place, that one is a thief and a plunderer. 2 But he that enters through the door is shepherd of the sheep. 3 The doorkeeper opens to this one, and the sheep listen to his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has got all his own out, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, because they know his voice. 5 A stranger they will by no means follow but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers." 6 Jesus spoke this comparison to them; but they did not know what the things meant that he was speaking to them.

7 Therefore Jesus said again: "Most truly I say to YOU, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All those that have come in place of me are thieves and plunderers; but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the door; whoever enters through me will be saved, and he will go in and out and find pasturage. 10 The thief does not come unless it is to steal and slay and destroy. I have come that they might have life and might have it in abundance. 11 I am the fine shepherd; the fine shepherd surrenders his soul in behalf of the sheep. 12 The hired man, who is no shepherd and to whom the sheep do not belong as his own, beholds the wolf coming and abandons the sheep and flees—and the wolf snatches them and scatters them— 13 because he is a hired man and does not care for the sheep. 14 I am the fine shepherd, and I know my sheep and my sheep know me, 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I surrender my soul in behalf of the sheep.

16 "And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd. 17 This is why the Father loves me, because I surrender my soul, in order that I may receive it again. 18 No man has taken it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative. I have authority to surrender it, and I have authority to receive it again. The commandment on this I received from my Father."
19 Again a division resulted among the Jews because of these words.

[SlaveForJah]

I checked this out a while ago. I came to the conclusion that the interpretations upon this doctrinal understanding are a bit grabby.

I find this a real shame. Its seems that the Watchtower does not trust that what they say with be accepted so anything that can possibly support the position is employed to that end. Grabbed at. I don`t believe that qualifies as handling the word of God properly.

Even employing the term little flock for the elect, does not seem to neccesitate the `other sheep` doctrine.

The acceptance of the gentiles as the other sheep does not mean the rejection of the literalcy of 144 000. Niether does it mean the rejection of the two destinies perspective.

I looked for my research and couldn`t find it but I might go through it again because the evidence seems pretty convincing. From memory the whole context is a juxtaposition against the pharisees. I think if you go and look at the passage the implication by Christ is how far of the mark the Pharisees really are.

The Pharisees tendancy to look down on `typical` covenant Jews suggests the impossible likelyhood that they could even realise that the Messiah could be looking to 'the nations' for believers and followers.

I tend to agree with you here, Jinn. Also in regard to the general juxtaposition of the Pharisaic outlook of exclusivity with that of Christ's message of "good news to the poor" and "a release to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind", I believe the following passage has some merit:

"21 Leaving there, Jesus now withdrew into the parts of Tyre and Si´don.22 And, look! a Phoe·ni´cian woman from those regions came out and cried aloud, saying: “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David. My daughter is badly demonized.” 23 But he did not say a word in answer to her. So his disciples came up and began to request him: “Send her away; because she keeps crying out after us.” 24 In answer he said: “I was not sent forth to any but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25 When the woman came she began doing obeisance to him, saying: “Lord, help me!” 26 In answer he said: “It is not right to take the bread of the children and throw it to little dogs.” 27 She said: “Yes, Lord; but really the little dogs do eat of the crumbs falling from the table of their masters.” 28 Then Jesus said in reply to her: “O woman, great is your faith; let it happen to you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed from that hour on." - Matthew 15:27

Jesus sets a difference here between "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" as being "the children" and the Phoenician woman, as representative of people of the nations as being "little dogs". But Christ then affirms the woman's assertion to being healed by the Lord by speaking of her faith as being the important piece of the puzzle, uniting her with those of 'her masters' who would exercise faith in the Lord.


Which flock was Jesus addressing in John chapter 10? It's obvious that he was not speaking to the 144,000, since Holy Spirit had not been poured out at Pentecost to found the Congregation. So, again, to whom was he speaking? The flock, or fold, of fleshly Israel. Who would be those other than fleshly Israel? Paul explains:

"25 For I do not want YOU, brothers, to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for YOU not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, 26 and in this manner all Israel will be saved. Just as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion and turn away ungodly practices from Jacob." - Romans 11:25, 26

So, Paul was addressing the idea that had sprung up in the congregation at Rome that somehow those of Jewish descent had been abandoned. Addressing the division of the two distinct groups in the eyes of those to whom he was speaking, namely the Jewish Christians and the Gentile Christians. This seems to be a concern of Paul elsewhere in his writings as well.

"8 Now the Scripture, seeing in advance that God would declare people of the nations righteous due to faith, declared the good news beforehand to Abraham, namely: “By means of you all the nations will be blessed.” 9Consequently those who adhere to faith are being blessed together with faithful Abraham.

...

26 YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus." - Galatians 3:8,9,26-28

Again we see that Paul is addressing the idea of two distinct groups. First those to whom the good news would be declared "beforehand", namely "Abraham", Israel. Second, "people of the nations".

Thus, in verses 26-28 Paul seems to be alluding to the unification of flocks that Jesus spoke of in John's gospel, the erasure of the dividing line between Jew and Greek.

That seems to be the two groups that Christ and Paul were concerned with. I understand that the Great Crowd are distinct in destination from the 144,000, but it doesn't seem to be a concern directly related to Jesus' two flocks or to Paul's explanation thereof.


Agape

SlaveForJah

[truthseeker]

Superb use of scripture SFJ & Jinn. The scripture in question John 10:16 has always been a question mark to me and may I add very difficult to defend. And it is the most quoted scripture by the WT describing the GC along with Rev 7
May I say, observing the two of you in harmony is very powerful, using Gods word with reason.


A Song of the Ascents. Of David.
133 Look! How good and how pleasant it is
For brothers to dwell together in unity!
2 It is like the good oil upon the head,
That is running down upon the beard,
Aaron’s beard,
That is running down to the collar of his garments.
3 It is like the dew of Her´mon
That is descending upon the mountains of Zion.
For there Jehovah commanded the blessing [to be],
[Even] life to time indefinite.

:D

[Jinnvisible]

Maybe there will yet be evidence provided to suggest otherwise.

Yes.

If you examine the second half of the John Chapter 9 text leading up to Christ’s statement about the ‘Other Sheep’ in chapter 10 there isn’t much reference to obvious stuff that would distinguish the 144 000 from the earthbound. Jesus doesn’t talk much about the priesthood of the elect. He isn’t talking about the sovereignty or immortality ect. These issues would be signs that he is making a real distinction between the two groups that the Watchtower has pegged.

However notice he talks about himself as ‘The Door’ to the sheep pen.

Why is this relevant?

This is relevant because during the whole lead up to the `Other Sheep’ comment Jesus is talking about a man who is thrown out of the synagogue by the Pharisees.

So Christ is referencing himself as the door to salvation in specific relation to the door of the synagogue. A door that this healed man (although a Jew) can no longer enter. Hence this man is banned from the worship place of the Jews. The doorway of worship of the Jews.

Hence Jesus’ statement about being himself ‘the door’ relates to the Gentiles also.

In the sense that the ‘other sheep’ [gentiles] also have the same status with the Pharisees, like this banned Jew, they cannot enter the synagogue of the Jews.

So Jesus here speaking sympathetically to the man he healed (paraphrasing) saying don’t worry about not being able to enter the synagogue. There are also sheep from elsewhere (other sheep / gentiles) who also cannot enter the Jewish synagogue. But all will enter through me; I am the new door of the synagogue.


26 YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus." - Galatians 3:8,9,26-28

Again we see that Paul is addressing the idea of two distinct groups. First those to whom the good news would be declared "beforehand", namely "Abraham", Israel. Second, "people of the nations". #

Yes. It was an ongoing concern.

Paul sometimes sympathized with the Jews and reminded them of their noble heritage and natural progression into Christianity. Other times he counseled that the influence of Jewish custom was infringing on the new founded faith.

His overall policy is clear though in the chapter 3 Galatians scripture.

Oddly, typical ‘WTBTS think’ might view this in a kind of unsound retrospective logic. That because Paul was promoting there was no difference between Jew and Greek, that the distinction of `other sheep` could not be between them.

However that would be a false application of stringency because if you fathom the reasoning to that degree then you must also take into account as you clearly point out, that none of those Christ was speaking to about ‘other sheep’ had received an anointing at the time he was speaking to them.

To apply the same kinds of stringency you have to recognize that Paul was speaking in a different time frame in Galatians that Christ was speaking in John’s gospel.

Hence if Paul spoke at about ‘Other Sheep not of this fold’ ~ after he had set up congregations of non-Jews it would lend much more weight to the notion that he was talking about earthbound Christians. Due to the fact that he was already uniting Jew & Gentile in one little flock of 144 000.

Yet because Christ is speaking of ‘Other Sheep’ before Jews & Gentiles are united in faith, before there are even any anointed Jews except him, seems to weigh extremely heavily in the other direction.

It simply looks as if a theologian has grabbed this ‘Other Sheep’ scripture to help bolster an unpopular / yet correct WTBTS position.

If that is in fact the case it really will only have served to stumble those who otherwise might have accepted the WTBTS position on the 144 000.

Unless anyone can provide additional scripture that provides a weight of evidence otherwise.

[Jinnvisible]

John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had thrown him out.....

[arimatthewdavies]

i beleive that other sheep that jesus refered to simply ment other people races in other parts of the world.....the bible gives specific warnings that if an angel from heaven preaches another gospel let him be acursed! the other books mormon,kuran,budda,hilas silasi,etc that come from angels are dangerous as hell! they look good contain nothing that seems dangerous,and talk about jesus christ,,but heed the bibles warning! dont mess with these books not even as a curiosity! these books all tell you how god came to their race and apointed another prophet,equal or better than jesus,the
e people are not not not other sheep! they are demon taught,and demon lead,deceived and physicaly dangerous,makeing this simple other sheep means any man women or child that confesses,with his mouth jesus christ is lord! and bears fruit to prove he beleives what his mouth speaks!.

[elihu]

I checked this out a while ago. I came to the conclusion that the interpretations upon this doctrinal understanding are a bit grabby.

I find this a real shame. Its seems that the Watchtower does not trust that what they say with be accepted so anything that can possibly support the position is employed to that end. Grabbed at. I don`t believe that qualifies as handling the word of God properly.

Even employing the term little flock for the elect, does not seem to neccesitate the `other sheep` doctrine.

The acceptance of the gentiles as the other sheep does not mean the rejection of the literalcy of 144 000. Niether does it mean the rejection of the two destinies perspective.

I looked for my research and couldn`t find it but I might go through it again because the evidence seems pretty convincing. From memory the whole context is a juxtaposition against the pharisees. I think if you go and look at the passage the implication by Christ is how far of the mark the Pharisees really are.

The Pharisees tendancy to look down on `typical` covenant Jews suggests the impossible likelyhood that they could even realise that the Messiah could be looking to 'the nations' for believers and followers.

hi Jinnvisible

i would really like to believe what you have said (in bold)
would you elaborate on that so that i could give consideration to it.

elihu

[Jinnvisible]

hi Jinnvisible

i would really like to believe what you have said (in bold)
would you elaborate on that so that i could give consideration to it.

elihu

Its probably better to be exploitory than emphatic when revising these things. There was a guy who left the Watchtower and set up his own church. He'd had enough of Watchtower dogma and decided to revise the whole thing. I cant remember his name, his solution however was to focus on some Isaiah scripture about a goat or scapegoat, he then went on to designate himself the prophesied 'Scapegoat Messiah'.

He took a remote scripture that was some passing comment and built a whole prophesy and task designation out of it. You could say he'd left the Watchtower - but the Watchtower hadn`t left him.

On the face of it seems as if there may have been many bogus reasoning’s stapled, riveted or bound up with truthful doctrinal understandings over the years.

So the 144 000 overview and earthbound human destiny all look very unusual, adept and insightful. At the same time that overview is not a popular view among many groups who dismiss the bible as interpreted through the WTBTS. So it almost seems as if their may have been some kind of concern that people won’t ‘buy it’ the advertise, advertise, advertising of the kingdom. As if a perfectly good doctrinal understanding has been bolstered up with false reasoning? Bad applications of bible in an attempt to gain tenure and sway. Proof. Is it possible that the leadership has lacked faith in this concern? Faith that the truth would not be enough not accepted and hence over the decades unnecessarily used bad scriptural reasoning to support true positions? Just to make it easier to understand? Easier to accept. More accessible?

Looking in the reasoning book I’d certainly expect to find logic on the interpretation of `Other sheep` with an entry all to itself due to the extent of its use in publications, theology and general language within the association of Jehovah's witnesses . It’s not there. You might find related stuff but there appears to be no exclusive validation in that publication.

Yet look what does appear.

*** it-1 p. 75 Alien Resident ***
Christians are termed “aliens” and “temporary residents” in the sense that they are no part of this world. (Joh 15:19; 1Pe 1:1) They are aliens in that they do not conform to the practices of the world hostile to God. (1Pe 2:11) Those of the Gentile nations, once “strangers to the covenants of the promise,” without hope and “without God in the world,” are, through Christ, “no longer strangers and alien residents,” but “fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members of the household of God.” (Eph 2:11, 12, 19) The “other sheep” that Jesus said he would gather into the “one flock” likewise take a position separate from the world, with favor of God and hope of life.—Joh 10:16; Mt 25:33, 34, 46; compare Re 7:9-17.

Doesn’t this passage from the reasoning book (2001 cd rom) virtually read as if the Gentile nations are the ‘other sheep’ of Christ’s time?

In this paragraph above, if you cover up only one word in the last sentence with your thumb ‘likewise’: Then whole passage reads as if the ‘Other sheep’ are gentiles brought into the covenant. Whoever wrote this passage, wrote more about the Gentiles in connection with the ‘Other sheep’ statement than anything else. As if whoever wrote it included one word [‘likewise’] to accommodate an official position. It’s possible that this is an overlooked throwback to the Ray Franz era who apparently had a great influence upon the material that went into the reasoning books. Perhaps if there are bethelite assistants to the Governing body still reading this website they will be able to extricate this from the WTBTS theological arsenal. It’s not really doing their official position much good. Ray Franz and his followers came to some false conclusions about the scriptures, including mistakes about `the great crowd` yet could they and others have been partly distracted by the Wt’s bogus use of texts to support genuine / true positions ?

Having already looked at the ‘Other Sheep’ text in John, Jesus is speaking directly about a banned Jew who can no longer enter the door of the synagogue where Gentiles also would not have been able to enter. (If the Pharisees prevented a Jew from entering the synagogue simply for having been made healthy, there’s no way they would have generally let gentiles enter in amongst them). Jesus seems to reference himself as ‘new door’ that this banned Jew can enter into also with the ‘Other sheep’. (Gentiles) This is a weight of evidence. Jesus’ reference to himself as a door to the sheepfold connects the incident which takes up the previous thirty or so verses with the banned Jew status as it related to the future plan of including other nations in the New Covenant. Otherwise he is just speaking in poetry ‘I’m a door’ for no real reason other than to say that poetically. Yet Jesus usually speaks plainly. If he calls himself ‘bread’ there is some connected theology with it. He doesn’t usually just say it for the sake of poetry.

Its difficult to pat your head, rub your tummy, jump up and down on one foot at the same time. Yet we might attempt to keep in mind these considerations do not in any way dismiss the literacy of the 144 000 nor the prophesied future inhabited paradise earth. It is simply a question of whether those truths have been fumbled by attempts to hold them up using unqualified reasoning.

The other term that is commonly juxtaposed with ‘Other Sheep’ is ‘Little flock’. Jesus does not directly juxtapose them or make a direct distinction between them. That is a constant usage of the language of the society.

*** it-2 p. 916 Sheep ***
By contrast, Jesus’ sheep, both the “little flock” and the “other sheep,” who follow his lead, are well cared for

We are so used to seeing this language to denote positions that we readily accept that we take it for granted that the language is being used as it was intended.

Having investigated the ‘Other Sheep’ statement in John the next focus should naturally be Christ’s statement reported about the ‘Little flock’. Yet just to take stock how many times are both used in scripture? The c.d. rom search of the NWT reports that ‘Little flock’ is used in the text of the bible a full ‘One time’. Followed closely in ..ahem.. joint first place by ‘Other Sheep’ which is also used a whopping `Once`.


Luke 12:31-32

Nevertheless, seek continually his kingdom, and these things will be added to you.

“Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.

Unlike John where evidence for official assertions seem entirely absent and against the tide of reason there is understandably a little more to go on with the `little flock` statement in Luke. However it is still entirely possible that the weight of evidence in Luke is actually also heavily against the official usage of this text. I.e. it’s supposed natural juxtaposition against the ‘Other sheep’.

Firstly we can acknowledge that the Messianic Kingdom includes the earth as a part of its realm. This is actually quite easy to establish. Revelations indicates that the sounding of the seventh elohim trumpet indicates that the Kingdom of the Heavens has reached the Earth. Also on Golgotha Christ told the man offering him comfort that (paraphrase) they would be together in Paradise. As we know that Christ will be in the heavens and the comforting criminal will be resurrected on earth, if they are together, and Christ is an enthroned King, then on face value at least, the man on earth must be in a kingdom.

So whilst it is entirely possible that Christ was speaking to his apostles about their rulership in the above quoted Luke scripture, the ‘receiving of the kingdom’ is an acquisition. Pursuing the kingdom and acquiring it is not limited to rulership. However it really makes no difference if Jesus was speaking in these terms. It doesn’t follow that he was making juxtaposition between ‘other sheep’ and a ‘little flock’. For reasons that will forth with be explained.

1 John 5:21 Little children, guard yourselves from idols

John used the term ‘little children’ here. That could easily be interchangeable for him as a term of endearment. John could have easily said little flock. Even if you accept he was speaking to anointed brothers It doesn’t automatically follow he was making a specific point to indicate heavenly or earthly designations, simply by saying ‘little flock’ or ‘little children’. As it stands he only would have been indicating one of those anyway. Yet a term of endearment is not necessarily to be taken as an emphatic statement of designation.

The obvious reason that the WTBTS associates Christ’s (only) comment about a ‘little flock’ at Luke 12:31-32 with / the Faithful and discreet slave / the 144 000 / the Governing body ECT is because Christ in the verse immediately following it talks about his arrival as inspecting master. The illustration about the bride ECT which does mean rulership ect.

However there is evidence to consider 30 verses previous.

Bible text occurring only a few verses after Christ’s ‘Little Flock’ statement would usually seem more relevant to information 30 verses previous. (Purely because of its proximity on the page) Yet there is something else to consider. The act of Christ’s inspection as master - whilst reported [ within the next few verses] following the ‘Lil Flock’ statement, actually occurs in real time two thousand years after Christ spoke it. Whilst the information reported 30 verses previous actually pertained to the meeting Christ was at when he spoke within hours of him speaking.

Observe.

Luke 11:53-12:1

So when he went out from there the scribes and the Pharisees started in to press upon him terribly and to ply him with questions about further things, lying in wait for him, to catch something out of his mouth.

12In the meantime, when the crowd had gathered together in so many thousands that they were stepping upon one another, he started out by saying first to his disciples: “Watch out for the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy

Firstly we often take Christ statements about `Watch out or the leaven of the Pharisees’ as a theological drive. Yet look up close. Here they are, at the gathering, looking to snare the Christ. So it may also be a very immediate caution that Jesus is issuing here to his close friends, not to be baited by the Pharisees at this very meeting. If they are ready to trap Jesus they would certainly be interested in easier targets to indict the teacher i.e. a close follower caught in his words. Eventually one of Jesus’ followers was used by the Pharisees, to identify him at his arrest.

Also look at the description of the gathering. There are thousands of people here. Apparently ‘stepping on each other’.

So although Christ was speaking to those who hither-to would become kingdom rulers, [his close followers], at this thousands strong stampede of excited gregarious covenant Jews, (including murderous Pharisees), and he spoke to this gathering telling them that they would receive the kingdom ~ would he have been talking to all of them in the crowd?

Luke12:41 Then Peter said: “Lord, are you saying this illustration to us or also to all?

Christ was able to make discernments about people; he once told a woman how many husbands she had. He knew when a young merchant was being hindered by material wealth, is it likely that as Christ looked out over the crowd of people, he was able to discern that among these thousands there stood fewer individuals among the thousands crowd that would become anointed followers ? The watchtower is free to pictorially depict Jesus as a Jolly Greek kebab shop owner who called on Jehovah for all his heightened awareness. However Jesus clearly had inculcated discerning abilities. He was able to feed them all, and heal them all.

Does it automatically follow that purely because Christ is speaking to the future elect of God that he is specifically designating them as such? When in John’s first letter he ended his writing with `little children beware idols’, do you then consider that ‘little children’ is code for heavenly elect, purely because he was talking to the heavenly elect? Do you then go looking for something else that reads ‘other children’ or the ‘Greek dogs’ to designate the earthbound?

Or was Christ discreetly addressing a ‘little flock’ among the number of the thousands strong crowd who were stepping on each other? Some of which wanted to kill him or bring him down.

Luke12:41 Then Peter said: “Lord, are you saying this illustration to us or also to all?

So Christ certainly was also addressing those who would become members of the elect 144 000. He was generally doing that whenever he was speaking to his followers at any time.

Does his designation of ‘little flock’ look likely to have been a distinguishing comment? To acknowledge this group as a being distinct among the rowdy thousands to whom he was addressing within the actual crowd at the time? A perhaps passing term of endearment, to those among this gathering who Christ knew were sincerely looking to him. The crowd who was in fact a thousands strong gathering, out of the larger congregation or flock of Israel.

Luke12:41 Then Peter said: “Lord, are you saying this illustration to us or also to all?

Rather than some oddly out of place distinction juxtaposing a designation between heaven and earthbound followers?

1 John 5:21 Little children, guard yourselves from idols

Luke 12:32 “Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom

[Tsaphah]

After reading the posts on this subject, it appears, that you all are from the city, and have never lived on a ranch, farm, or out in the country where sheep are raised. The ancient peoples of the Middle East raised sheep because they were a valued animal. The sheep provided, wool for clothing, oil in the form of lanolin, and meat for eating. The wool was a valued source of trading, because it could be harvested several times a year. The lanolin and meat, of course, were a one time source of trading. In some ways the sheep also acted as sentries. Whenever a strange person or animal came near, they would start bleating and become disturbed. This action would usually awake the shepherd.

During certain times of the year, usually during the winter months, the sheep were kept in a corral, or what is called a sheepfold. There was usually a covered area to provide the sheep a place out of the elements. The sheepfold or corral was usually made up of a stone wall or wooden stakes driven into the ground. The sheepfold also had a gate that could be opened to allow the sheep in or out, to graze in the area.

Sheep are a lot like people, in some ways. Some people say they are stupid but that could be because sheep are sometimes too trusting. They are also curious and that can get them into trouble. They are easily led and will usually follow the dominant male or female of the flock. Some shepherds used goats mingled in with the flock to get the sheep to follow. At the time when the sheep were to be slaughtered for meat, the goats would lead the sheep into the slaughtering pens. These goats were/are called Judas Goats.

In the illustration that Jesus used in John 10 ( 2001 NT ), he refers to himself as “the gateway” (10:7) and also “the good shepherd”. (10:11) How can that be? Let Jesus answer this. “I am the gateway, and whoever enters through me will be saved.” (10:9) “I am the good shepherd, and a good shepherd will give his life for the sheep.” (10:11) So Jesus is “the good shepherd” because he will give his life to save his sheep. He is also “the gateway” because he is the owner of the sheep and has the right to open the way for the sheep to “come in or he can go out and find a place to graze.” (10:9) ( 2001 NTB is the 2001 Translation – An American English Bible found at http://www.2001translation.com/ )

Jesus then says, “But I have other sheep that aren’t in this pen, and I must also lead them and they will listen to my voice, and they will [all] become one flock under one shepherd.” (10:16) Who was Jesus speaking of here? There are differing opinions about these “other sheep”. Some believe that Jesus was referring to the Gentiles. Some believe that these are those who are not anointed and will live on the earth. Others believe that these are the native peoples that lived on the American continent. (The Mormons believe this.) And there are others who believe these are the people who survive the great tribulation. (Rev 7:9, 14) Which one of these beliefs are true? Let the bible be our guide.

As it was recorded in the writing of John, those who listened to Jesus give the illustration, didn’t understand. “Jesus gave them this illustration, but they didn’t understand what he meant.” (10:6) What we will have to do is, look through the bible to see if we can comprehend this statement of “other sheep.”

From many other bible scriptures we can see that Jehovah God used sheep as a metaphor of people, (Ps 49:14) but especially the people of Israel. (Ps 77:20) They were considered to be His Sheep. (Ps 79:13) Jehovah was considered as the Shepherd of Israel. (Ps 80:1), (Isa 53:6, 63:11) From these scriptures we can see that Jehovah considered all people like sheep.

Jesus also felt compassion for the people of Israel and saw them as “sheep without a shepherd”. (Mt 9:36) Jesus carried this thought when he instructed his disciples in the preaching work. (Mt 10:6, 16) The nation of Israel were considered to be the “lost sheep” and Jesus reiterated this thought when asked by the Canaanite woman to rid her daughter of a demon. (Mt 15:24) Did this mean that only the Israelites were to be selected as anointed representatives of the Kingdom of the Heavens? No. At that time only they were the chosen ones. There would be a future time when Jesus would send out his disciples to give the people of the nations this opportunity.

We still have not identified the “other sheep” using the bible as our guide. At a later time, Jesus used children as examples of those who would inherit the kingdom. (Mt 18:3) During that conversation, he speaks of the world and the stumbling blocks it causes to individuals. Immediately after this subject, he speaks of a lost sheep. (Mt 18:12-14) And he mentions his father Jehovah not wanting anyone to perish. Can we assume from this, that the nations are the “other sheep”? Let’s move forward in time. Most of us are familiar with Matthew chapter 24. But we will go beyond to chapter 25.

This is where Jesus teaches with illustrations, of the future that will come upon the inhibited earth. These illustrations cover the period of time of the end. Or as the original Greek term used calls this the end of the “age”. In verse 31, Jesus says, “When the Son of man arrives in all his glory”. This is not the “parousia”, but “erchomai”. This is it! No being along side, invisible, etc. Erchomai is a root word in Greek and means just what is says, “to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning.” (Strongs G2064) This word is used at Matthew 2:21, 8:21, 8:14, and also at Luke 10:33, 14:1, 14:31, 16:21, and many other places in the Greek scriptures.

Let’s go back to verse 31 again. This says that Jesus would what? It says he will “separate people one from another”. What people are these? “And all the nations will be gathered before him,” (Mt 25:32) Verse 33 says, “And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.” Aha! There are sheep found in “the nations”, goyim in Hebrew, ethnos in Greek. These are not Israelites, or Jews. But, the argument can be made that it still doesn’t say “other sheep”.

Well, let’s read a little further. It says, “Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, YOU who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for YOU from the founding of the world.” (Mt 25:34) I think we can conclude that these are the other sheep mentioned at Jn 10:16. How so, you may ask. The apostle Paul, considered to be the apostle to the nations, wrote to the Roman congregation and said, “Just as it is written: “For your sake we are being put to death all day long, we have been accounted as sheep for slaughtering.” (Ro 8:36) From these scriptures we can see that the “other sheep” are the “anointed” ones gathered from “all the nations” who are invited to “inherit the kingdom prepared for YOU from the founding of the world.” (Mt 25:34)

Below I have scanned and included reference material that may give some background information of bible scriptures and explanations of the terms.

SHEPHERD, (from Heb. raw-aw', to tend; Gr, poy-mane').
The shepherd or “sheep-master" was constantly with his flocks by night and by day, to number, gather, feed, conduct, and guard them (Gen. 31:39; Luke 2:8), and was often attended with a despised dog (Job 30:1). His care of the sheep was constant and tender, and his control over them very great (Isa. 40;11; John 10:1-16). Rev. John Hartley, a missionary in Greece, tells us that he was once passing by a flock of sheep, and, having heard it said they would obey the shepherd's voice, he asked him to call one of his sheep, which instantly left its pasturage and approached the hand of the shepherd with a prompt obedience which he never saw in any other animal. It is also universally true in that country that a stranger they will not follow. They flee from him, for they know not the voice of a stranger.

It is said that the shepherds of Judaea gave each lamb a distinct name, and that they instantly obeyed the voice of the shepherd, coming and going daily at his call. An ancient Jewish writer, born and educated in Egypt, states that the sheep, in the season of shearing, would run to the shepherd at his call, and, stooping a little, put themselves into his hands to be shorn and stand quietly until he had done.

It was the business of the shepherd to count the sheep daily, perhaps oftener, and he was accountable for any that were missing (Gen. 31:38, 39; Exod. 22:12, 13; Lev. 27:32 ; Jer. 33:13). (See ROD, STAFF, SCEPTER.)

Sometimes a lamb was taken into the tent and brought up like a dog (2 Sam 12:3). It is common in Armenia to see shepherds carrying in their bosoms the lambs of the flock they are tending. They are too feeble to roam with their dams, and nothing evinces more tenderness and care than gently leading such as are with young or such as have young lambs to which they give suck (Isa. 40:2). Two of our American missionaries tell us that while traveling in Armenia they passed several shepherds, probably from the neighboring villages, carrying in their bosoms the lambs of the flocks they tended. The same scene had already frequently interested them by presenting the source of the beautiful imagery of the prophet. It is exhibited only at one season of the year, when lambs are frequently brought forth during the day at a distance from the fold. The newcomers, being too weak to follow the flock in its rovings after grass, are carried in the bosom of the shepherd, and not unfrequently they so multiply as to fill his arms before night. They are then taken to the fold, and guarded there until sufficiently strong to ramble with their dams.

One of these enclosures presents an amusing scene when the sheep return anxiously bleating in the evening from their day's pasture, and scores of hungry young ones are conducted by shepherds' boys each to its own mother. (Schaff, Bib. Dict.)

The office of the eastern shepherd, as described in the Bible, was attended with much hardship, and even danger. He was exposed to the extremes of heat and cold (Gen. 31:40); his food frequently consisted of the precarious supplies afforded by nature, such as the fruit of the “sycamore,” or Egyptian fig (Amos 7:14), the “husks” of the carob-tree (Luke 15:16), and perchance the locusts and wild honey which supported the Baptist (Matt. 3:4); he had to encounter the attacks of wild beasts, occasionally of the larger species, such as lions, wolves, panthers, and bears (2 Sam. 17:34; Isa. 31:4; Jer. 5:6; Amos 3:12); nor was he free from the risk of robbers or predatory hordes (Gen. 31:39). To meet these various foes, the shepherd's equipment consisted of the following articles: A mantle, made probably of sheep's-skin with the fleece on, which he turned inside out in cold weather, as implied in the comparison in Jer. 43:12 (cf. Juv. 14.187); a scrip or wallet, containing a small amount of food (1 Sam. 17:40; Porter's Damascus, 2.100); a sling, which is still the favorite weapon of the Bedouin shepherd (1 Sam. 17:40; Burckhardt's Notes, 1.57); and, lastly, a staff, which served the double purpose of a weapon against foes and a crook for the management of the flock (1 Sam. 17:40; Ps. 23:4; Zech. 11:7).

If the shepherd was at a distance from his home he was provided with a light tent (Cant. 1:8; Jer. 35:7), the removal of which was easily effected (Isa. 38:12). In certain localities, moreover, towers were erected for the double purpose of spying an enemy at a distance and protecting the flock; such towers were erected by Uzziah and Jotham (2 Chron. 26:10, 27:4), while their existence in earlier times is testified by the name Migdal-Eder (Gen, 35:21, A.V. "tower of Edar;” Mic. 4:8, A.V. "tower of the flock"). (See SHEEP; PASTURAGE.)

Figurative. (1) Political rulers in the state, and captains in the army, are called shepherds or pastors; their office requires them to gather, lead, protect, and provide for the welfare of their subjects and armies, which are their flocks (Isa. 44:28, and 43:14; Jer. 12:10, and 25:34; Neh. 3:8; Jer. 23; Ezek. 34). (2) Perhaps the shepherd and stone of Israel, signifies not God, the source of all blessings, but Joshua, Gideon, and other rulers of Israel, descended from the tribes of Ephraim, or Manasseh, who as shepherds, ruled, and as a stone established the Hebrew nation (Gen. 49:24). (3) The Chaldean princes and their armies were the shepherds and flocks that ruined Judah (Jer. 6:3, and 12:10). (4) Christ is God's Shepherd; because his father has given him his flock of chosen men, and appointed him to die for, call, and feed them (Zech. 13:7). (5) He is called the one Shepherd; because he alone owns the sheep, and can in every respect answer and supply all their wants (Ezek. 34:23; John 10:16). (6) He is called the great and chief Shepherd; he is infinitely great in himself ; he is highly exalted as our Mediator; he has the supreme management of the church in his hand; and ministers and magistrates are but instruments subject to him (Heb. 13:20; 1 Pet. 5:4). (7) He is the good Shepherd; in infinite kindness he redeemed his sheep from ruin, by the price of his blood; kindly he sympathizes with them, and gives them his own flesh and blood for their provision; and nothing good will he withhold from them (John 10:4). (8) He is the Shepherd and Bishop of souls; it is men's souls he leads, restores and satisfies; and their spiritual and eternal interests are the great object of his care (1 Pet. 2:25; Ps. 23:2, 3; Jer. 31:27). (9) Ministers are shepherds; it is their work to gather, lead, watch over, feed with sound doctrine, and every way endeavor to promote the spiritual life, safety, growth, health, and comfort of their people (John 21:15, 16; Eph. 4:11; 1 Pet. 5:1-4).
The Popular and Critical Bible Encyclopaedia Vol. 3, Pgs. 1573-1574

SHEEP
1. PROBATON, from probaino, to go forward, i.e., of the movement of quadrupeds, was used among the Greeks of small cattle, sheep and goats; in the N.T., of sheep only (a) naturally, e.g., Matt. 12:11, 12.

(b) metaphorically, of those who belong to the Lord, the lost ones of the house of Israel, Matt, 10:6; of those who are under the care of the Good Shepherd, e.g., Matt. 26:31; John 10:1, lit., 'the fold of the sheep,' and vv. 2-27; 21:16, 17 in some texts; Heb. 13:20; of those who in a future day, at the introduction of the Millennial Kingdom, have shewn kindness to His persecuted earthly people in their great tribulation, Matt. 25:33; of the clothing of false shepherds, Matt. 7:15;

(c) figuratively, by way of simile, of Christ, Acts 8:32; of the disciples, e.g., Matt. 10:16; of true followers of Christ in general, Rom. 8:36; of the former wayward condition of those who had come under His Shepherd care, 1 Pet. 2 : 25 ; of the multitudes who sought the help of Christ in the days of His flesh, Matt. g: 36 ; Mark 6: 34.

2. PROBATION, a diminutive of No. 1, a little sheep, is found in the best texts in John 21:16, 17 (some have No. 1); distinct from arena, lambs (ver. 15), but used as a term of endearment.
Note: For "keeping sheep," Luke 17:7, R.V., see CATTLE.

SHEEP GATE, SHEEP MARKET
PROBATIKOS, an adjective, used in the grammatically feminine form, in John 5:2, to agree with pule, a gate, understood, R.V., "sheep gate" (not with agora, a market, A.V., "sheep market"). In the Sept., Neh. 3:1, 32;
12:39. This sheep gate was near the Temple; the sacrifices for the Temple probably entered by it.

FOLD
AULE, first signifies an open courtyard before a house; then, an enclosure in the open, a sheepfold, John 10:1, 16. In the papyri "the word is extremely common, denoting the court attached to a house" (Moulton and Milligan, Vocab.). The sheepfold was usually surrounded by a stone wall, Numb. 32:16, preferably near a well, Ex. 2:16; Ps. 23:2, and often protected by a tower, 2 Chron. 26:10; Mic. 4:8.
See COURT, HALL, PALACE.

Note: For the erroneous A.V. rendering, "fold," of Poimne, a flock, in John 10:16, see FLOCK.

SHEPHERD
POIMEN, is used (a) in its natural significance, Matt. 9:36; 25:32; Mark 6:34; Luke 2:8, 15, 18, 20; John 10:2, 12;
(b) metaphorically of Christ, Matt. 26:31; Mark 14:27; John 10:11, 14, 16; Heb. 13:20; 1 Pet. 2:25;
(c) metaphorically of those who act as pastors in the churches, Eph. 4:11. See PASTOR.
From Expository Dictionary Of New Testament Words – W.E. Vine

Agapé,
Tsaphah

[arimatthewdavies]

dear brothers/and sisters a book and a test to go with it was written called toxic faith.i took it and failed i gave it to the elders in a conversation they failed i asked about 50 others at the km the qustions in a way that they would not know all 50 failed this was year 1997 since then i teach recovery training, a continueing program to help people with addictions includeing religious addiction. do you know that jehovahs wittnesses expeiriance the medical symptoms of cocaine withdrawal when deprived of their literature? think i am jokeing? spend 30 days bible onley no watchtower/awakes/or any study aid whatsoever for 1 month 1 solid month no shareing! wear sunglasses tell them your not allowed to read ! im not starting my own church ! no way what if im wrong mislead a bunch of people and really make jehovah mad! im leaveing that to those that want to parade their authority and anointing along with the purple robes and big tassals. you cant pay me enough to write a page with bible scripture quotes all over it.. go sit in the kingdom hall and do that! im the kind of person that will spin stories and yarns like the chronicals of narnia,and feed you potatoe chips and dip.i found out a long time ago that the more i learn the stupiider i become! have a nice lunch all hail jesus!

[shikinah]

dear brothers/and sisters a book and a test to go with it was written called toxic faith.i took it and failed i gave it to the elders in a conversation they failed i asked about 50 others at the km the qustions in a way that they would not know all 50 failed this was year 1997 since then i teach recovery training, a continueing program to help people with addictions includeing religious addiction. do you know that jehovahs wittnesses expeiriance the medical symptoms of cocaine withdrawal when deprived of their literature? think i am jokeing? spend 30 days bible onley no watchtower/awakes/or any study aid whatsoever for 1 month 1 solid month no shareing! wear sunglasses tell them your not allowed to read ! im not starting my own church ! no way what if im wrong mislead a bunch of people and really make jehovah mad! im leaveing that to those that want to parade their authority and anointing along with the purple robes and big tassals. you cant pay me enough to write a page with bible scripture quotes all over it.. go sit in the kingdom hall and do that! im the kind of person that will spin stories and yarns like the chronicals of narnia,and feed you potatoe chips and dip.i found out a long time ago that the more i learn the stupiider i become! have a nice lunch all hail jesus!

I guess that's what happens when you become dependent on something, but really the word of God should be enough. I find there is always something new to learn in the bible, that there really shouldn't be any craving for other bible aid.

Shikinah

[Jinnvisible]

After reading the posts on this subject, it appears, that you all are from the city, and have never lived on a ranch, farm, or out in the country where sheep are raised. The ancient peoples of the Middle East raised sheep because they were a valued animal. The sheep provided, wool for clothing, oil in the form of lanolin, and meat for eating. The wool was a valued source of trading, because it could be harvested several times a year. The lanolin and meat, of course, were a one time source of trading. In some ways the sheep also acted as sentries. Whenever a strange person or animal came near, they would start bleating and become disturbed. This action would usually awake the shepherd.

So you are saying sheep are animals used for food and clothing ?

Got proof ?


He is also “the gateway” because he is the owner of the sheep and has the right to open the way for the sheep to “come in or he can go out and find a place to graze.”

Yes. Jesus could let in who he decided into his flock. The Pharisees had power over the door of the synagogue, a sheep pen of the congregation of Israel.

No power of over the door of the new sheep pen.

[SlaveForJah]

Hello Tsaphah.

So, you are saying:

the little flock = the fleshly Nation of Israel.

the other sheep = the 144,000.

Hmm...that's exactly the opposite of the Watchtower position.


Agape

SlaveForJah

[arimatthewdavies]

tis very interesting how jesus lkened men to sheep and goats. jehovah created both! and made them a certain way. with just a little sillyness thrown in here is the 1 major differance between sheep,and goats.
if a goat sees a man bending over it just cant resist butting you!.. if a sheep sees a man bending down the sheep gets in front and nuzzles instead of knocking you over.....

[FutureMan]

the more i read john 10 the more i see that christ was speaking of a much bigger picture than that of the wto teaching of the annointed and the GC of other sheep
however at the moment i will keep my thoughts to the question of the other sheep

firstly the wto teaches that the annointed were gathered up until 1935 but the door is still slightly open for some to leave and others to replace them, but the GC are the ones whom the gathering has been focused on since then.

of course scripture shows that the annointed are not completley gathered until Christ returns

matt 10:23

"for assuredly i say to you , you will not have gone through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man arrives"

so the question then arises who are the other sheep and when are they gathered.
are they gathered at the same time as the little flock, or later at a specific point in time?

SFJ correctly points out there is no direct evidence that christ was speaking about the GC when he spoke of the other sheep.

however i think it comes down to the scripture quoted above.
was Christ talking about the tribes of Israel being gathered up until he returned including the other sheep
or was he talking about the elect of Israel being gathered out of the tribes of Israel up until his return.

considering that all the letters of the new testament refer only to the elect i would have to say that latter is the case.
and the only other ones spoken of as having salvation by Christ are the GC and so logically they must be the other sheep who are gathered at a specific point in time after the arrival of Christ.
the visible presence of Christ empowers the 2-witnesses to proclaim the everlasting or final gospel and that is when the GC are gathered

and of course this again leads us to the central issue of the NC
because if the other sheep are gathered after the return of Christ then the NC is already fulfilled

" for as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup you proclaim the Lords death until He comes" 1 cor11,26

so in my understanding it comes down to this

if we believe that the other sheep are gathered alongside the annointed from the time of christ till his return, either as other sheep seperate from from the 144k or as the gentile section of the 144k flock then all must be in the NC.

but if the other sheep are the GC that are gathered at a specific point in time after the return of the Lord, then only the little flock are directly purchased by the NC.

i can only find scriptural support for the latter
so once again the WTO is correct with its doctrine but its prophesy of timing is dramatically misaligned.

elihu

I will quote in a nutshell, what Perimeno say's on his site and that is that the little flock were the Jews, starting with the apostles and then other disciples who were already were Jews or proselyte Jews living in Judea and surrounding areas, and the other sheep which Jesus indicated were in existence at that time (the Gentiles) would be added to this little flock of Jewish Christians to make one large unified flock.

This started to occurred in around 36 CE if I remember correctly.

[elihu]

I will quote in a nutshell, what Perimeno say's on his site and that is that the little flock were the Jews, starting with the apostles and then other disciples who were already were Jews or proselyte Jews living in Judea and surrounding areas, and the other sheep which Jesus indicated were in existence at that time (the Gentiles) would be added to this little flock of Jewish Christians to make one large unified flock.

This started to occurred in around 36 CE if I remember correctly.


Well if that is the case then all sheep are new covenanted, both the jews and the gentiles, and a gathering of both takes place throughout time until Christ returns.
however that then leads to questions about the brothers of Christ
how many are they, if the gathering of all sheep, little flock and bigger flock has been ongoing since
36ce?
and where do we find in scripture evidence of two hopes for these flocks that being a heavenly hope and an earthly hope?
i can only read of a heavenly hope in the letters to the christian congregations.
where do we read in the apostles paul, peter james and John speaking of two hopes when writing their letters?
and who is the sheep that Christ speaks to when he seperates the sheep and the goats, who are they and when do they appear on the scene, and is it these who inherit the earth?

confused!

elihu

[FutureMan]

Well if that is the case then all sheep are new covenanted, both the jews and the gentiles, and a gathering of both takes place throughout time until Christ returns.
however that then leads to questions about the brothers of Christ
how many are they, if the gathering of all sheep, little flock and bigger flock has been ongoing since
36ce?
and where do we find in scripture evidence of two hopes for these flocks that being a heavenly hope and an earthly hope?
i can only read of a heavenly hope in the letters to the christian congregations.
where do we read in the apostles paul, peter james and John speaking of two hopes when writing their letters?
and who is the sheep that Christ speaks to when he seperates the sheep and the goats, who are they and when do they appear on the scene, and is it these who inherit the earth?

confused!

elihu

Well maybe it is a case of there only being one hope until Jesus arrives with the Kingdom.

As Jesus stated, to remember him by partaking of the bread and the wine until he comes again with the Kingdom

When Jesus does arrive with the Kingdom then will start the separating of the sheep and the goats and then the great crowd will be manifested.

It appears to me that the Watchtower Society has jumped ahead in their understanding of how and when things will take place.

But then that has been human nature all along, hasn't it?

[SlaveForJah]

Well maybe it is a case of there only being one hope until Jesus arrives with the Kingdom.

Interestingly enough, FM, that's exactly what the Bible Students believe. Just thought I'd share.


Agape

SlaveForJah

[FutureMan]

Interestingly enough, FM, that's exactly what the Bible Students believe. Just thought I'd share.


Agape

SlaveForJah

They may very well be correct on this understanding then.

[elihu]

Well maybe it is a case of there only being one hope until Jesus arrives with the Kingdom.

As Jesus stated, to remember him by partaking of the bread and the wine until he comes again with the Kingdom

When Jesus does arrive with the Kingdom then will start the separating of the sheep and the goats and then the great crowd will be manifested.

It appears to me that the Watchtower Society has jumped ahead in their understanding of how and when things will take place.

But then that has been human nature all along, hasn't it?








scripture is clear in showing that the sheep and the goats are seperated on the basis of what they do with regard to the brothers of Christ.
you say that seperation reveals the great crowd, however the great crowd exist at a specifiic period of time, so are the great crowd made up of the other sheep?
for that to be true a resurrection of all mankind must have already taken place in order for all those who belonged to the other sheep(gathered since 36ce) to be judged as worthy of eternal life.

it doesnt add up

but the WT teaching does, it allows for the gathering of the 144k and for the GC to gathered at a specific point in time, during a time of testing on the earth.
where the wt have fallen down is on the timing of events because everything is bolted to 1914.

so Perimeno needs to rethink his opinion, because as you say it is human nature to run ahead.

[FutureMan]

scripture is clear in showing that the sheep and the goats are seperated on the basis of what they do with regard to the brothers of Christ.
you say that seperation reveals the great crowd, however the great crowd exist at a specifiic period of time, so are the great crowd made up of the other sheep?
for that to be true a resurrection of all mankind must have already taken place in order for all those who belonged to the other sheep(gathered since 36ce) to be judged as worthy of eternal life.

it doesnt add up

but the WT teaching does, it allows for the gathering of the 144k and for the GC to gathered at a specific point in time, during a time of testing on the earth.
where the wt have fallen down is on the timing of events because everything is bolted to 1914.

so Perimeno needs to rethink his opinion, because as you say it is human nature to run ahead.

Hi yes it is confusing, is it not, but I do believe that Perimeno could be correct in that the little flock at that time were the Jewish Christians and then the other sheep the gentiles.

As Jesus had stated that he had other sheep, his statement was indicating in a present tense other than a future sense.

So as brother Russell also believed as I understand anyway that first was the spiritual Jews (144,000) the little flock and then the gentile (the great crowd) only at that time he also believed as I understand that the great crowd also had a heavenly hope as a secondary class.

At that time as I understand, they did not have an earthly hope except for the unrighteous who would be resurrected on the earth.



At that time in those early days of Christianity, I do believe that the heavenly hope was what was attained for by all the early Christians after Christ's death, but not necessarily that all the faithful Christians would be part of the 144,000 spiritual Jew class, that is if the number is really meant to be a literal number rather than the number itself being symbolic .

If the number is meant to be symbolic, then that would mean then that all faithful Christians would have a heavenly hope up and until the time of God's Kingdom being established here over the earth.

But as it appears, that the Great Crowd really have an earthly hope after the Kingdom is established.

It does appear from the prophecy in Revelation that the "Great crowd" is referred to in connection with the the time period called the "great tribulation" as these are the ones said to come out of the great tribulation having survived and having been determined to be the ones that have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb.

So anyway in a spiritual sense these are the spiritual Gentiles that attach themselves to the 144,000 spiritual Jews (the little flock).

But originally when Jesus made that statement the original little flock could have being the literal Jews and the other sheep were of the Gentile ones of the Nations, such as Cornelius the Roman officer and his family and friends.

But after the Jewish nation was destroyed as a nation, the little flock then became the spiritual Jews and the other sheep became the members of the great crowd, though this was not realized back then until John's visions as recorded in the book of Revelation.

The "Great Crowd" really was for the future and really could be the other sheep as pertaining to the future and during the time of the separating of the "sheep and the goats".

But when Jesus was speaking to his disciples he could have either being referring to those among them (in the present tense) that would be part of the "great crowd" in the future as he knew that these ones would die and be resurrected perhaps during the one thousand years or right at the end of the one thousand years, or he could have being referring to those who were living at that time and who were literal Gentiles (as other sheep) and who were not literal Jews (little flock).


Before then apparently they did not know of the 144,000 as the little flock as they really only had one hope (the heavenly hope) at that time as far as I can establish anyway from my study of the scriptures.

Anyway this is all from my perspective, in any case.

[shikinah]

Well maybe it is a case of there only being one hope until Jesus arrives with the Kingdom.

As Jesus stated, to remember him by partaking of the bread and the wine until he comes again with the Kingdom

When Jesus does arrive with the Kingdom then will start the separating of the sheep and the goats and then the great crowd will be manifested.

It appears to me that the Watchtower Society has jumped ahead in their understanding of how and when things will take place.

But then that has been human nature all along, hasn't it?







Im not that great with understanding scripture especially the order of things, but I guess what your saying has a point. From what im aware of EVERYONE will have to undergo an hour of test which will come upon the earth, so up until then I guess where all the same:confused:

[Londoner]

Well if that is the case then all sheep are new covenanted, both the jews and the gentiles, and a gathering of both takes place throughout time until Christ returns.
however that then leads to questions about the brothers of Christ
how many are they, if the gathering of all sheep, little flock and bigger flock has been ongoing since
36ce?
and where do we find in scripture evidence of two hopes for these flocks that being a heavenly hope and an earthly hope?
i can only read of a heavenly hope in the letters to the christian congregations.
where do we read in the apostles paul, peter james and John speaking of two hopes when writing their letters?
and who is the sheep that Christ speaks to when he seperates the sheep and the goats, who are they and when do they appear on the scene, and is it these who inherit the earth?

confused!

elihu

Hi elihu :)

The Christian Greek scriptures do mention the "earthly" hope. Eph 1: 7-10:

By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one, yes, the forgiveness of [our] trespasses, according to the riches of his undeserved kindness.
8 This he caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and good sense, 9 in that he made known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself 10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, to gather all things together again in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. [Yes,] in him,


Londoner

[uglyandthin]

Hi elihu :)

The Christian Greek scriptures do mention the "earthly" hope. Eph 1: 7-10:

By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one, yes, the forgiveness of [our] trespasses, according to the riches of his undeserved kindness.
8 This he caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and good sense, 9 in that he made known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself 10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, to gather all things together again in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. [Yes,] in him,


Londoner

Hi Londoner:

Great thought! The little flock could easily be the "spirit anointed or born again ones" of the bride who will rule with Jesus in Heaven and the "other sheep" could be the "spirit begotten or born again ones" who will rule with Christ on the earth as the earthly portion of the kingdom. Jesus "things" both in heaven or on earth are the whole of the Kingdom, as you so aptly pointed out with this quote. There is and will be a heavenly aspect of God's Kingdom as well as an earthly aspect of that Kingdom. The Watchtower has known this is the case since the "90's ( or perhaps longer) but has kept that "talent" buried in the earth (Of thier administration) and away from the "little people" in the congregations.

The heavenly part of the Kingdom arrangement are temporally Gold and the earthly part of the Kingdom are temporally Silver. If you look at the illustration of the talents in Matthew 25 you will see that it is the "silver" that the Wicked and Sluggish Slave buries in the earth (the administration of the Church). They know that there is to be both a heavenly and an earthly part of God's Kingdom, Gold and Silver, but they keep this knowledge hidden in the ground, and only speak of the Gold because that is the information that exalts them and gives them special "status" with Christ, they think. This course will not be pleasing to Jesus when he returns and instead of being the Wicked and Sluggish Slave (even though they think that they have been appointed over all of Jesus belongings) they will now be the "Good for Nothing Slave". Do you think Jesus will entrust the Good for Nothing Slave with any of his belongings, his monies, either silver or gold? I don't.

uglyandthin

[elihu]

Hi elihu :)

The Christian Greek scriptures do mention the "earthly" hope. Eph 1: 7-10:

By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one, yes, the forgiveness of [our] trespasses, according to the riches of his undeserved kindness.
8 This he caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and good sense, 9 in that he made known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself 10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, to gather all things together again in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. [Yes,] in him,


Londoner

Hi Londoner

fist let me apologise for my late reply, somehow i forgot about this thread!

you make a very good point, it fits neatly with the gathering of the GC and the timing of that gathering.

and yes that would mean that the GC enter salvation via the NC.
the only question that comes to mind is will the GC be already gathered before Christ returns, through the present gospel preaching, or will they be gathered after his presence and the empowerment of his two witnesess?

elihu