You Tube Videos

[watchman]

Hi Everyone

I hope to be regularly posting You Tube videos in response to other videos people have published with questions for Jehovah's Witnesses. Here is the first of what I hope are many more to come. (Click here) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHE9m5LoOmI) By the way, I was just experimenting with a headset mic, but it didn't turn out so well.

[uglyandthin]

Hi Watchman:

Nice video. Your answer to the question was very complete but I think what you described is just a really, really, really, adinfinitim good copy. There needs to be a continuity of life and personality in order for it to "actually" be the same person. We discussed this in a thread entitled "The Silver Cord", I think. The idea, promoted by Jehovah's Witnesses that when a person dies, they are completely out of existence is an impediment to understanding this.

You did a nice job explaining your point of view though and it was very understandable.

uglyandthin

[Gabriel]

Im at work so I only had a little time to listen to the first few minutes of the video. Its a staggering thought isnt it? If we were to recieve a ressurection,will we really be the same exact person we were before we died..THE. SAME. EXACT. PERSON? Well...if not I guess we're all screwed. Think about it....For us to be the very same person that we were before we died then that would mean that every second of our life starting from the time we were concieved Was and still is being recorded some way, somehow right? And where exactly is this information being stored...in Jehovahs's Memory?

As hard as it is to believe that sould I die and


be found salvagable enough to recieve a Rez, that I will indeed be -ME-You know why I believe it? Because Christ himself died and was rez'd from the grave...He may have looked a little differently but he was indeed THE JESUS CHRIST who had died and was now alive. If Father didnt have the ability to bring us back from the dead,and I mean bring us back knowing every little detail about us before we died, then it would have been unthinkable for him to allow his own son to die knowing that he didnt not have the ability to bring him back from the grave. It would have been an eternal loss for all time and we would have to settle with some fake immitation of his son, everytime God would look at him it would remind him of what he lost forever.

[FutureMan]

Im at work so I only had a little time to listen to the first few minutes of the video. Its a staggering thought isnt it? If we were to recieve a ressurection,will we really be the same exact person we were before we died..THE. SAME. EXACT. PERSON? Well...if not I guess we're all screwed. Think about it....For us to be the very same person that we were before we died then that would mean that every second of our life starting from the time we were concieved Was and still is being recorded some way, somehow right? And where exactly is this information being stored...in Jehovahs's Memory?

As hard as it is to believe that sould I die and


be found salvagable enough to recieve a Rez, that I will indeed be -ME-You know why I believe it? Because Christ himself died and was rez'd from the grave...He may have looked a little differently but he was indeed THE JESUS CHRIST who had died and was now alive. If Father didnt have the ability to bring us back from the dead,and I mean bring us back knowing every little detail about us before we died, then it would have been unthinkable for him to allow his own son to die knowing that he didnt not have the ability to bring him back from the grave. It would have been an eternal loss for all time and we would have to settle with some fake immitation of his son, everytime God would look at him it would remind him of what he lost forever.

(Acts 7) [2001 Translation – An American English Bible] 54 Well, when they heard this, they were really cut down and were grinding their teeth at him. 55 But, being filled with Holy Breath, he stared into the sky and saw the Glory of God and Jesus standing at God’s right hand, 56 and he said, ‘Look! I see the heavens opening up and the Son of Man standing at God’s right hand!’
57 Well at this, they started shouting as loud as they could and putting their hands over their ears. Then they all ran up to him, 58 grabbed him, took him outside the city, and started stoning him… as those who came to watch laid their capes at the feet of a young man called Saul.
59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he prayed this, ‘Lord Jesus; Receive my breath (http://www.2001translation.com/ACTS.htm#_The_Breath).’ 60 Then he got down on his knees and shouted loudly, ‘Lord, don’t hold this sin against them.’ And with that, he fell asleep [in death].

[truthseeker]

Ok I will speak frankly!
I thought it was incredibly brave to put your self out there (naked so to speak)
It may have served you more than the questioner. I know you have so much to offer to so many Robert. You have made sense scripturally of the whole weeds and wheat thing you really have I know it. So how ever Jehovah directs you in shifts and shivers you are speaking the truth to the best of your abilities!
I did get nervous with the mustache and the finger thing --- I’m glad you didn’t pick your nose!!!!
\
You see I feel I know you and can say these things.
You may need to be Scandinavian to appreciate the humor.

With much love Brian O

[watchman]

Ok I will speak frankly!
I thought it was incredibly brave to put your self out there (naked so to speak)
It may have served you more than the questioner. I know you have so much to offer to so many Robert. You have made sense scripturally of the whole weeds and wheat thing you really have I know it. So how ever Jehovah directs you in shifts and shivers you are speaking the truth to the best of your abilities!
I did get nervous with the mustache and the finger thing --- I’m glad you didn’t pick your nose!!!!
\
You see I feel I know you and can say these things.
You may need to be Scandinavian to appreciate the humor.

With much love Brian O

You realize, the thing of it is, I miss talking to people at the door, giving talks, and all that. But over the past few decades the door-to-door work has been becoming increasingly irrelevant anyway. Considering that JW's spend hundreds of hours driving around, walking up and down the street, knocking on doors that no one ever answers - all the while millions of people are surfing the net, watching videos, discussing the very topics JW's could only hope to discuss with their not-at-home householder. I think I got my foot in the door here on You Tube.

watchman

[truthseeker]

You realize, the thing of it is, I miss talking to people at the door, giving talks, and all that. But over the past few decades the door-to-door work has been becoming increasingly irrelevant anyway. Considering that JW's spend hundreds of hours driving around, walking up and down the street, knocking on doors that no one ever answers - all the while millions of people are surfing the net, watching videos, discussing the very topics JW's could only hope to discuss with their not-at-home householder. I think I got my foot in the door here on You Tube.

watchman


I agree it was only two years ago and it was me spinning my wheels in the door to door ministry 30 to 40 hours a month with the occasional auxiliary pioneering. The only time I ever had any success was thirty years ago as a wide eyed youthful me.
But no one can deny times have changed, for many JWs the only comfort is they (the world) see us out there, whether we meet with success or not and that is what matters.
I know you miss the old days but the devil has forced your hand brother and you have done more in less than a decade than most will ever dream of in a life time.
Be strong and act and may Jehovah bless your efforts.

With deep respect Brian

[shikinah]

Thats really good Robert, I think Youtube is the best form of exposure plus your website is also available on there..

Keep them coming
Shikinah:)

[watchman]

Uploaded another video in response to tough question #2. Now that I got things set up I hope to upload one per day, and then move on to something else. click here (http://www.youtube.com/user/ewatchmandotcom#p/u/0/yY2ATtj41EE)

watchman

[Jinnvisible]

Uploaded another video in response to tough question #2. Now that I got things set up I hope to upload one per day, and then move on to something else. click here (http://www.youtube.com/user/ewatchmandotcom#p/u/0/yY2ATtj41EE)

watchman

I thought that was an erudite responce.

You're pretty good at this bible stuff.

[Anthony]

Uploaded another video in response to tough question #2. Now that I got things set up I hope to upload one per day, and then move on to something else. click here (http://www.youtube.com/user/ewatchmandotcom#p/u/0/yY2ATtj41EE)

watchman

Do I see a lava lamp?

Anyways, Here is a bit of an email between me and an elder about blood. (it's only a few parts, it was really long and I didn't want to post it all)



Now back to the response to your email: This is another example where, I have said something (in this case written something) that has been misunderstood. Now I never thought of myself as an elegant speaker or writer, so it is very possible that we have these misunderstandings because of the way that I word things. But it is also a possibility that it might be the way you perceive what I write. Either way it is nice as well as important to be able to clarify matters openly and lovingly.

So here goes,

You said: “After you do this, do you still feel like the Faithful Slave went beyond the things written when it comes to smoking?”

After reading this statement I am left with the impression that you thought that I was implying that I felt that they went beyond things written pertaining to smoking, which is not the case at all. I said: “I don’t see how saying not to take fractions would be going "beyond the things written,” any more then saying not to smoke. There are not however any specific instructions on smoking but instead of saying it is a matter of conscience to smoke or not, Jehovah’s word the Bible is used to show why it is wrong. Likewise, there is enough information that is clear to the view on blood to show that fractions are wrong.”

When I made the statement “There are not however any specific instructions on smoking” I was comparing it to there not being any thing specifically on fractions, but I went on to say Jehovah’s word the Bible is used to show why it is wrong.

In other words, I was in agreement that even if it doesn’t actually say smoking (or drug use) that the bible is used to show that it is wrong, just by reasoning on it. That’s why I said, “Likewise.”

So in answer to your question; “do I still feel like the Faithful Slave went beyond the things written when it comes to smoking?” No I do not feel that they did, nor did I feel that way before. But I do feel that the Bible is clear about fractions as well, in the same manner by reasoning on the scriptures or reasoning on Jehovah’s feeling regarding it.

I notice that you didn’t seem to address anything that I cited about Deuteronomy 15:23 Genesis 9:4,5.

Just by reasoning on those two scriptures, one can understand;
How Jehovah feels about it!
That fractions not being mentioned are not relevant, because fractions are C and you can’t get to C before A and B.

A. Being Genesis 9:4,5. Jehovah asks it back from us, so it is not ours to give.
B. Being Deuteronomy 15:23. Jehovah says pour it out.
C. Being Fractions. Which would not be available, if one did not give what did not belong to them away in the first place, and if blood was poured out and not stored.

Now to sum up what you said, along with what they say their selves and what I am trying to say. You said: “When it comes to the matter of abstaining from blood, the matter of fractions is not mentioned.” They said: Of course, at the time the Bible was written, transfusions and other such medical uses of blood were unknown. Yet, God provided directions that enable his servants to decide whether certain medical procedures involving blood might displease him. You said:“Jehovah has not revealed his feelings.” They said: Jehovah’s Witnesses, though, DO NOT accept this procedure. We have long appreciated that such stored blood certainly is no longer part of the person. It has been completely removed from him, so it should be disposed of in line with God’s Law: “You should pour it out upon the ground as water.” You said: Are we to expect them to make a decision on something when they don’t know how Jehovah feels? I say: No, if they don’t know how he feels, but in this case they do know and state it. Now I know it is obvious in the example that I cited that it’s pertaining to autologous blood, but being consistent, if you can’t store blood to reuse for ones self, how do you donate and store blood to extract the various fractions? They said: “However, since blood can be processed beyond those primary components, questions arise about fractions derived from the primary blood components.” I say: For a Christian no such questions would arise, because obeying his law to begin with, would mean there would be no blood to process to derive fractions from.


You ask the question to me, “Would that be faithful or presumptuous?” I would like to know if you feel that I am being presumptuous in saying that in this case they do know how Jehovah feels?

Picture if you will, if we had the same privilege that Adam had in the beginning when he was able to converse directly with Jehovah. Imagine having a conversation with him asking “Is it okay to have a blood transfusion?” and in reply He tells you about how blood is sacred and it is to be poured out, and not stored. I now would know His feelings about it. Now in another conversation, I ask “ Is it okay if I store my blood in order to replenish any blood loss during a surgery for myself?” Having already told me His view, He says again, I told you that blood is sacred, and it is to be poured out and not stored. And now I really know how Jehovah views blood. So in a third conversation I say ”I know you’ve told me twice that blood is sacred and it is to be poured out and not stored, but I want to ask your feelings about taking fractions of the blood. You only told me your feelings about blood when I inquired about transfusions, or storing blood for surgery, so how do I know how you feel regarding storing blood to derive fractions?”

[Anthony]

Robert,

I was wondering why you seem to be talking to someone name Tim. When I clicked the link from the DB it took me straight to your youtube site, but I could not read any comments, so I looked up that same video thru youtube and seen a reply from a Tim. So I am assuming that this is the disgusting pig that you are addressing?

My question or comment is why would you respond to him? Isn’t this a case where Jesus said “Do not give what is holy to dogs, neither throw YOUR pearls before swine, that they may never trample them under their feet…”

[watchman]

Robert,

I was wondering why you seem to be talking to someone name Tim. When I clicked the link from the DB it took me straight to your youtube site, but I could not read any comments, so I looked up that same video thru youtube and seen a reply from a Tim. So I am assuming that this is the disgusting pig that you are addressing?

My question or comment is why would you respond to him? Isn’t this a case where Jesus said “Do not give what is holy to dogs, neither throw YOUR pearls before swine, that they may never trample them under their feet…”


Tim Kilgore (http://www.youtube.com/user/TimKilgore) is the guy whose questions I am responding to. As far as him being a "disgusting pig" that seems a bit harsh, don't you think? I see nothing offensive in Tim Kilgore's Tough Questions for Jehovah's Witnesses. He is respectful. He does not demean the truth or ridicule Jehovah's Witnesses.

Paul said that Christians should be ready to make a defense of the faith before ANYONE who demands a reason. Besides, even though Jesus advised his disciples not to give what is holy to the dogs, Jesus time and again allowed the Pharisees to question him and he usually replied. Jesus even accepted a dinner invitation from a Pharisee once; even though in the end Christ castigated them as being hypocrites and offspring of vipers.

Perhaps you are put off by his long hair or the fact that he is a pro-wrestler and head-banger. But if you met some guy out in the field ministry who had tattoos and long hair, would you avoid talking to him?

There are lots of people, young and old, who are in Tim's position. They may have grown up around the Witnesses; had one or both parents "in the truth"; but for a multitude of reasons hundreds of thousands such persons, yeah, millions of persons including those who have perhaps studied with JW's to some extent in the past, have not stuck with it and developed into mature Christians. The primary reason is that they have been stumbled; stumbled by the hypocrisy of JW's they may have associated with; stumbled by the Society's doings in recent years; stumbled by the Watchtower's tainted past; perhaps some have been stumbled because elders could not or would not answer their tough questions.

But I do not believe that anyone who lacks faith or who has been stumbled is irretrievably lost. Jude says that those with spiritual qualifications ought to try to snatch the doubters out of the fire. And what did Paul say? "Love never fails."

watchman

[Utuna]

Robert,

I was wondering why you seem to be talking to someone name Tim. When I clicked the link from the DB it took me straight to your youtube site, but I could not read any comments, so I looked up that same video thru youtube and seen a reply from a Tim. So I am assuming that this is the disgusting pig that you are addressing?

My question or comment is why would you respond to him? Isn’t this a case where Jesus said “Do not give what is holy to dogs, neither throw YOUR pearls before swine, that they may never trample them under their feet…”


Dear anthony,

You made me laugh indeed ! lol

While listening to Robert's video, I was having a look at Tim's face and thought to myself: "That poor guy, we should pass the hat round and pay him a short visit to the hair-dresser..." :p

Regarding his opinion about blood, if it is true that a certain number of JW children (and adults too) died :

1) what is the real number and what were the real circumstances of their death ? Lack of blood only ?

2) By the way, how many people died because of transfusions ? Conversely, how many lives were saved because blood wasn't used ? As examples, click here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infected_blood_scandal_%28France%29) and there (http://dentist-dentiste.com/blood.html).

Excepted sob stories, what are his real arguments ?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Utuna]

Tim Kilgore (http://www.youtube.com/user/TimKilgore) is the guy whose questions I am responding to. As far as him being a "disgusting pig" that seems a bit harsh, don't you think? I see nothing offensive in Tim Kilgore's Tough Questions for Jehovah's Witnesses. He is respectful. He does not demean the truth or ridicule Jehovah's Witnesses.

Paul said that Christians should be ready to make a defense of the faith before ANYONE who demands a reason. Besides, even though Jesus advised his disciples not to give what is holy to the dogs, Jesus time and again allowed the Pharisees to question him and he usually replied. Jesus even accepted a dinner invitation from a Pharisee once; even though in the end Christ castigated them as being hypocrites and offspring of vipers.

Perhaps you are put off by his long hair or the fact that he is a pro-wrestler and head-banger. But if you met some guy out in the field ministry who had tattoos and long hair, would you avoid talking to him?

There are lots of people, young and old, who are in Tim's position. They may have grown up around the Witnesses; had one or both parents "in the truth"; but for a multitude of reasons hundreds of thousands such persons, yeah, millions of persons including those who have perhaps studied with JW's to some extent in the past, have not stuck with it and developed into mature Christians. The primary reason is that they have been stumbled; stumbled by the hypocrisy of JW's they may have associated with; stumbled by the Society's doings in recent years; stumbled by the Watchtower's tainted past; perhaps some have been stumbled because elders could not or would not answer their tough questions.

But I do not believe that anyone who lacks faith or who has been stumbled is irretrievably lost. Jude says that those with spiritual qualifications ought to try to snatch the doubters out of the fire. And what did Paul say? "Love never fails."

watchman

Dear watchman,

You're right !

One of my workmate and best friend is haired like a porcupine (http://www2.csdm.qc.ca/slg/activites/3e_Cycle/2008_2009/diaporama/le_porc-epic.jpg) or like Sonic (http://game-culture.jeuxvideo.org/wp-content/blogs.dir/21/files/NalPleGore/visuel/SonicBigAni.gif). lol

Neverthless, he's one of the kindest, tolerant and mild person I've ever met. I've already had deep discussions with him regarding moral issues and he's (astonishingly, at first) very upright and sensible.

I don't know Tim and guess that he isn't any different despite his "exotic" look.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Anthony]

[QUOTEwatchman

Paul said that Christians should be ready to make a defense of the faith before ANYONE who demands a reason.

Jude says that those with spiritual qualifications ought to try to snatch the doubters out of the fire.

I am aware of the above, but maybe you may want to meditate a little more on it.

Perhaps you are put off by his long hair or the fact that he is a pro-wrestler and head-banger. But if you met some guy out in the field ministry who had tattoos and long hair, would you avoid talking to him?

That does not put me off. It has nothing to do with it. For the record I had long hair (and still would if I was not balding:mellow:), tattoos and earrings.

I see nothing offensive in Tim Kilgore's Tough Questions for Jehovah's Witnesses. He is respectful. He does not demean the truth or ridicule Jehovah's Witnesses.

That’s just it; he knows in order to get some type of dialog going he has to come across respectfully. But it seems as if he thinks that his questions are so well formed and solid that he has a sense of haughtiness that he will make ones trying to answer look dumb. (I know he says that is not his intent:icon_rolleyes:) but I’m telling you that he’s not interested in really getting answers, he’s doing it to tear down:icon_evil:, not built up!

[Jinnvisible]

I looked up that same video thru youtube and seen a reply from a Tim. So I am assuming that this is the disgusting pig that you are addressing?



Hey Anthony, this Tim Kilgore is a wrestler.

I think he will be used to this kind of talk in the ring You disgusting pig ect. i`m gonna grind your skull, excetera ~ and take the title meatball, excetera.

Like that Wrestler talk.

Its a bit of a double-edged sword. You'd never advise a loved one to run in a burning house to save a person. If they did it you would be very proud. If they got maimed you'd wish they hadn't done it.

I watched the question and watchman's response which was great.

I think the annalogy is good like the computer. The human body is like the hardware and the mind is the hard drive. The software is like the memories and the personality.

Obviously the illustration has limitations which in fact Tim Kilgore is covering a little in his exuberance. He stated in appreciation of the illustration that science and technology are at a point where they may be able to download memories ect.

The obvious limtation in this is that technology is not sentient. Jehovah can recreate the physical body and remember the personality and memories ect.

So at this point, as Tim correctly indicates you are looking at something like a clone body.

However what science and mankind cannot do is switch on sentient consiousness. Like when the bible speaks about the Apostles `Sleeping in death`.

When we sleep we are not conscious. When we wake our consciousness is activated. Jehovah can reactivate the same human consciousness that a person had previously in a new body. In fact it matters not, that the first ressurection is spirit because that still has to be the same consciousness reactivated in a new body. I.e. whether the body is physical of spiritual.

That is what happened with Laurus and Jairus' daughter thier consciousness was reactivated. Also with Christ.

As for Christ being recreated / or raised in the different / same body that deserves a chat all of its own.

Tim Kilgore has a nice manner. As a wrestler he understands the concept of consciousness / unconciousness. He could knock you out and slap you back into consciousness reactivating you with ammonia crystal smelling salts. Jumping of the ropes excetera.

So Jehovah can 'switch on' the consciousness of a person who previously lived in a new body. Which is not the same thing as an eternal soul, nor does it lend credance to that. It is simply God Almighty choosing to remember a person and reactivate that cnsciousness in a new body.

Like getting a new TV set and watching the with the same wrestling channel.

Different set / Same Guys in lycra.

[James]

If we were to recieve a ressurection,will we really be the same exact person we were before we died..THE. SAME. EXACT. PERSON? Well...if not I guess we're all screwed. Think about it...


Hey Gabriel,

Maybe there won't be any mirrors in the resurrection.:p

Seriously, I think most people(if not all) wish they could change something about their looks. Whether it is a physical defect or just a shortcoming, like being taller, thinner, etc.

What if you weigh 450 pounds, do you want to come back like that? What if it's more serious, like being born a quadriplegic. Do you want to come back exactly like that and wait 100 years to grow new limbs? What about the person that died when they were 1-2 years old? Do you think they care what they look like when they are reborn?

Just some thoughts, bro, just some thoughts...

agape,
James

[truthseeker]

[QUOTE=Jinnvisible;41101]
However what science and mankind cannot do is switch on sentient consiousness. Like when the bible speaks about the Apostles `Sleeping in death`.

When we sleep we are not conscious. When we wake our consciousness is activated. Jehovah can reactivate the same human consciousness that a person had previously in a new body. In fact it matters not, that the first ressurection is spirit because that still has to be the same consciousness reactivated in a new body. I.e. whether the body is physical or spiritual.

Well put Jinn
To my thinking this consciousness (reason memories and free will to use them any way we chose) is exactly what ties the spiritual with the physical.
What Jehovah produced in the mind of a man is to this point the most awesome of all his physical creation. A person could conclude that man is the crown jewel of the physical creation.

7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?

A riddle ___ What was the largest down load ever to take place? The answer to the riddle illustrates what the human mind is actually capable of.

[uglyandthin]

Hi All:

It is interesting that the Bible likens death to "sleep" and "sleeping" and not "non-existence". When you are asleep but dreaming, you are detached from the reality of this physical world and are immersed in a sort of virtual reality created by the mind but you are nonetheless still alive. It is who we are as persons with all our experiences that create these dreams and this altered reality during that time that we are asleep. When we wake, often times we only remember sketchy details of our dreams (some remember more or less than others), and we return to this reality. We are the same persons as before we went to sleep. But, while we were sleeping we were not "out of existence".

I maintain that the Bible is telling us an important clue when it uses the word sleep or sleeping to describe death. We are not in a state of non-existence, but are in an altered reality while we await being "awakened" from this sleep. We are awakened when God again places our "spirit" (which returned to him) in another physical (as in the case of a resurrected human) or angelic body (as in the case of someone resurrected to angelic life). It is the combination of a body (either physical or angelic) and the spirit from God that makes a "soul". The body dies, but the spirit returns to God for safe keeping. When God resurrects us, as either a human again, or as a mighty angelic being, just like when we are awakened from sleep now, we will be the same person that we were before, just in a different "body". People may or may not recognize us when they look at us, but just like the disciples were able to recognize that Jesus was in another human form, but was still recognizable by his actions, so will others recognize us.

At this point I don't know how Jehovah keeps us "alive" while we "sleep" in death, but I am convinced that we are alive but not conscious of the reality that we are in right now or the reality that exists in the heavens if that is where we will eventually be resurrected as an angelic being. But the continuity of our life will be uninterupted somehow and rather than being a very excellant copy of who we were when we were alive in this system, we will be the exact same person, only in a different "body".

A good example of this is the "spirits" that Jesus preached to in Tartarus (1 Pet. 3:19,20). Who were these spirits and what were they doing in Tartarus? They were the spirits of the "angels" that left their proper dwelling place (which was in an angelic body in the dimension of heaven) and inhabited human forms and married human woman, fathering hybrid children before the flood here in the dimension of earth. When the flood came, they had to leave their physical bodies, but unfortunately for them they were not able to again take up an angelic body, so they became disembodied spirits. Tartarus is the place for disembodied spirits. Where is Tartarus? I do not know. It could be a dimension that existed between the two realities of heaven and earth where spirits can exist independent of a "body" but whose activities are still restricted, much like prisoners in a maximum security prison. In the case of the demons, it appears that they are in some sort of a conscious state, or how else could Jesus preach to them?

Humans who have died in the past have had thier physical bodies die, but thier spirits have returned to God who allows them to continue to "live" in a "sleep state" divorced from both the reality of this dimension or the dimension of heaven. When they are resurrected by God by being placed into a new body at their resurrection as either a human or an angel they will be the same individual as they were when they were originally alive, and not just a very, very, very good copy.

Those spirits of the dead who are not worthy of life in the kingdom will be sent to Gehenna to be disciplined by God along with those spirits who left their proper dwelling place, and the demons who sided with the great adversary the Devil. And since there is no place as non-existence then Gehenna cannot and does not represent a place from which there is no resurrection. But that is another discussion.

uglyandthin

[Jinnvisible]

Hi All:

It is interesting that the Bible likens death to "sleep" and "sleeping" and not "non-existence". ...........


Uglyandthin


It is interesting.

It doesn’t do that for everyone though. It seems that description is used in regard to God's faithful servants.


while we were sleeping we were not "out of existence".

I maintain that the Bible is telling us an important clue when it uses the word sleep or sleeping to describe death. We are not in a state of non-existence, but are in an altered reality while we await being "awakened" from this sleep.

Its not a clue.

It is a poetic use of sleep to offer reassurance specifically because we sleep a lot in comparison to spirits. Yet we are not usually afraid of going to sleep. The poetry of the analogy sleep with death has been used by the bible writers to remove the element of fear from the notion of death.

For instance the bible also describes death as `the last enemy` in this regard which is also a kind of poetry. Death is an obstacle but it is not a sentient skeletal being with a cloak and scythe. So the denotation of death as `an enemy` is a poetic use in order to convey something. Its not a hidden clue that death has some kind of personality, character, is carrying out some kind of vendetta.



At this point I don't know how Jehovah keeps us "alive" while we "sleep" in death, but I am convinced that we are alive but not conscious of the reality

He doesn’t keep you ‘alive when you are dead’.

Surely we can see that this is a pure contradiction of terms.

What you are saying is a little bit like a child saying,,,,,,,,,,, ‘Where does the light go when you blow out the candle?’

You say ,,,,,,,,,,,,’the light is gone, it doesn’t exist anymore.’

The child says,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but it comes back the very next night! So it must have gone somewhere.

Interestingly a ‘flame’ is often used in poetic speech for life. Obviously all these analogies have their limitations. A ‘flame’ is not sentient. As is technology. There is also a connection in the modern poetic use of Greek legend of Prometheus for fire being as a poetic technology so we also have a connection between these metaphors in use in general speech.

This is also not some kind of clue.


A good example of this is the "spirits" that Jesus preached to in Tartarus (1 Pet. 3:19,20). Who were these spirits and what were they doing in Tartarus? They were the spirits of the "angels" that left their proper dwelling place

It is not a good analogy for what you are attempting to assert because nowhere does it suggest that those spirits in Tartarus were dead.

It seems as if the time that Jehovah cleanses the earth he will also deal with this matter.

They were in fact punished yet ‘reserved for judgment’ Due to the fact that angel spirits did not inherit Adamic sin they do not die as a matter of course.


In the case of the demons, it appears that they are in some sort of a conscious state, or how else could Jesus preach to them?


However the bible doesn’t in anyway suggest that the punished spirits were unconscious in death.

It only indicates that they were in a state of limited restriction.


Those spirits of the dead who are not worthy of life in the kingdom will be sent to Gehenna to be disciplined by God along with those spirits who left their proper dwelling place,



They may indeed be dealt with at the same time of Judgment and receive the same kind of judgment.
It seems as if the time that Jehovah cleanses the earth he will also deal with this matter.


However you are actually suggesting that doing ~ ‘two things - at the same time with two different entities suggests that the entities are in the same condition.

It absolutely does not. This is an inherent error.

Illustration:

I have an old car. A virtual wreck an Oldsmobile which doesn’t run at all. Car 1.

I have a brand new Volkswagen. Car 2

For some reason relating to an insurance fraud I decide to get rid of both cars at the same time in the same manner. I scrap them both to suggest they were both in an accident together and I falsify evidence to acquire the insurance claim money.

Does the fact that I scraped them both at the same time in the same way really prove in anyway at all that they were in the same condition when they were scraped ?

Not at all.

Although that is the comparison you are attempting to draw.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all

This is a little bit beyond the previous issue.

Roberts’s analogy was good with the computer and so was Tim’s analogy with cloning.

However neither the biological technology of cloning nor computer technology have the ability to switch on sentient consciousness. Specifically to switch back on a sentient consciousness that previously existed. Roberts understands the limitations of the analogy whereas Tim has not. Due to the fact that Robert is ‘filling in the analogous blanks’ with God’s power and Tim obviously is not.

Actually it is quite possible to surreptitiously suggest that just like computer scientists or Biological engineers, ~ Jehovah God ~ actually does not have the ability to do this either.

That is often why these reasoning’s are often pursued, because people don’t actually have the faith to believe in God’s power so they don’t believe he can do these things. They need to believe that death doesn’t actually happen so god’s power isn’t really needed in that respect to reactivate the consciousness.