Ten Virgins

[Steadfast]

Parable of the 10 Virgins








Mat 25:1 – (Murdock) "Then may the kingdom of heaven be shadowed forth by ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom and the bride."

Mat 25:1 – (King James) "Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom."

Which rendering is correct? The first is from Murdock's Aramaic and the second is the King James.

Did the virgins go out to meet the bridegroom only, or the bridegroom and the bride?

One thing that puzzled me about the King James version is that it says all the virgins fell asleep:

Matthew 25:8 – "While the bridegroom delayed they all slumbered and slept."

According to King James, the virgins are the bride, and all fell asleep. To carry this a little further, when Christ returned, half the bride was ready and half was not; half went into the wedding banquet while half were rejected.

If we consider Murdock's Aramaic, we see something quite different. The virgins are not the bride at all. The bride doesn't fall asleep, but the virgins do. So who could the virgins be?

There is an interesting Psalm that sheds some light on this. It seems to be describing the time period when Christ returns for his bride and for judgment:

Psalm 45

For the Leader; upon Shoshannim; a Psalm of the sons of Korah. Maschil. A Song of loves.

"My heart overflows with a goodly matter; I say, 'My work is concerning a king'; my tongue is the pen of a ready writer. You are fairer than the children of men; grace is poured upon your lips; therefore God has blessed you forever.

Gird your sword upon your thigh, O mighty one, your glory and your majesty. And in your majesty prosper, ride on, in behalf of truth and meekness and righteousness; and let your right hand teach you tremendous things.

Your arrows are sharp – the peoples fall under you – they sink into the heart of the king's enemies.

Your throne, given of God is forever and ever; a scepter of equity is the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows. Myrrh, and aloes, and cassia are all your garments; out of ivory palaces stringed instruments have made you glad.

Kings' daughters are among your favorites; at your right hand does stand the queen in gold of Ophir. 'Hearken O daugheter, and consider, and incline your ear; forget also your own people and your father's house. So shall the king desire your beauty; for he is your lord; and do homage to him. And, O daughter of Tyre, the richest of the people shall entreat your favor with a gift.'

All glorious is the king's daughter within the palace; her raiment is of braided gold. She shall be led to the king in richly embroidered work, the virgins her companions in her train being brought to you. They shall be led with gladness and rejoicing; they shall enter into the king's palace.

Instead of your fathers shall be your sons, whom you shall make princes in all the land. I will make your name to be remembered in all generations; therefore shall the peoples praise you forever and ever."

This Psalm shows that the virgins mentioned in the parable in Matthew 25 are the companions of the bride.

Is it the bride who falls asleep or the companions of the bride?

Revelation 7:4 shows us that the sealing of the 144,000 takes place at the 6th seal…the beginning of the great tribulation. These ones are sealed out of the sons of Israel. The 144,000 are the bride of Christ, so it stands to reason that the remaining sons of Israel would be the virgin companions of the bride.

It is they who fall asleep, as the remainder of the parable shows:

Matthew 25:2-12 – "And five of them were wise, and five of them were foolish. And the foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them. But the wise took oil in vessels, with their lamps.

While the bridegroom delayed, they all became sleepy and fell asleep. At midnight there was an outcry: 'Behold, the bridegroom comes; go out and meet him!' Then all the virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps, and the foolish said to the wise: 'Give us of your oil; for behold, our lamps have gone out.' The wise answered and said, 'We must refuse, should there not be enough for us and for you; but you go to them that sell and buy for yourselves.'

While they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and they that were ready, went with him into the marriage feast, and the door was shut. At length also came the other virgins, and said, 'Our lord, our lord, open to us.' But he answered and said to them, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.'"

The remaining sons of Israel who were not chosen to be of the 144,000 were rejected for a reason. Were they tainted with false doctrine? Were they asleep? Did they take the mark of the beast?

They still have time to repent. These remaining sons of Israel have until the fifth trumpet to get their seal of approval in the forehead. (The fifth trumpet blows just before Christ returns at the end of the 6th…beginning of the 7th trumpet).

Rev 9:3-4 – "And out of the smoke, came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, like that which scorpions have on the earth. And it was commanded them, that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, nor any herb, nor any tree, but only the persons who do not have the seal of God upon their foreheads.

These remaining sons of Israel will receive correction through the preaching of the two-witnesses, but do they repent?

Matthew: "While they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and they that were ready, went with him into the house of nuptials, and the door was shut. At length also came the other virgins, and said, 'Our lord, our lord, open to us.' But he answered and said to them, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.'"

Apparently half of the remaining sons of Israel did not repent and were not prepared for the return of the bridegroom and the bride.

Christianity is made up of thousands of denominations. Will they wake up? Will they cleanse themselves? Will they receive a mark of approval in their foreheads or take the mark of the beast?

Do the math. :(It's very sad indeed.:(

Love,

Steadfast

[Utuna]

Dear sister Steadfast,

Thanks a lot for, as usual :cool:, the quality of your research and the time dedicated to share your spiritual pearls with us. At first, I agree with your interpretation according to which the virgins are not the anointed even if you think however that half of them are so.

I have some questions :

If so few remaining ones of Israel must repent, why a Great Crowd ?

You said :
The remaining sons of Israel who were not chosen to be of the 144,000 were rejected for a reason.and
These remaining sons of Israel will receive correction through the preaching of the two-witnesses, but do they repent?What if they repent whereas the door is already shut and locked because a catch-up session ain't planned :p, where will they end up ? Is it that they were rejected ? or that they were not chosen ? if you discern the subtlety in my question...

If the 144 000 anointed ones are organized into 12x12 000, the Israel of God. Who or what are the "remaining sons of Israel" that you describe ? Is the earthly hope a consolation prize for fallen anointed ?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Utuna]

Dear sister Steadfast,

Thanks a lot for, as usual :cool:, the quality of your research and the time dedicated to share your spiritual pearls with us. At first, I agree with your interpretation according to which the virgins are not the anointed even if you think however that half of them are so.

I have some questions :

If so few remaining ones of Israel must repent, why a Great Crowd ?

You said : and What if they repent whereas the door is already shut and locked because a catch-up session ain't planned :p, where will they end up ? Is it that they were rejected ? or that they were not chosen ? if you discern the subtlety in my question...

If the 144 000 anointed ones are organized into 12x12 000, the Israel of God. Who or what are the "remaining sons of Israel" that you describe ? Is the earthly hope a consolation prize for fallen anointed ?



Dear all,

What if the meaning of that parable is just that a great number (litteraly: the half of it) of Jesus' disciples won't be ready or duly prepared when he comes back suddenly, in the middle of the night, and that the virgins, the lamps and the oil are just secondary elements of the metaphor ?

If we have to get the sense of it, is it the sense of the content or of the form ?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[truthseeker]

Dear sister Steadfast,

Thanks a lot for, as usual :cool:, the quality of your research and the time dedicated to share your spiritual pearls with us. At first, I agree with your interpretation according to which the virgins are not the anointed even if you think however that half of them are so.

I have some questions :

If so few remaining ones of Israel must repent, why a Great Crowd ?

You said : and What if they repent whereas the door is already shut and locked because a catch-up session ain't planned :p, where will they end up ? Is it that they were rejected ? or that they were not chosen ? if you discern the subtlety in my question...

If the 144 000 anointed ones are organized into 12x12 000, the Israel of God. Who or what are the "remaining sons of Israel" that you describe ? Is the earthly hope a consolation prize for fallen anointed ?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

Russell taught it was a secondary heavenly class:
Ezekiel 40 -48

[Steadfast]

Dear Utuna,

You ask lots of thoughtful questions. :) The question seems to stem from the fact that we have been led to believe that only a few are called. The scriptures don't say that at all. If we can get past 'anointed' and 'fallen anointed,' the picture changes somewhat.

In the Aramaic version of the parable, the bride is already seen:

Mat 25:1 – Then may the kingdom of heaven be shadowed forth by ten virgins, who took their lams and went out to meet the bridegroom and the bride.

This makes a distinction between the two groups of the bride and the virgin companions.

What this is telling me is that the bride was already chosen before the virgin companions even wake up.

If the remaining sons of Israel are not the virgin companions of the bride and the bridegroom, then who are they?

Revelation 7 shows the great crowd as a totally different group because is says 'after these things I saw.' That means these are seen after the 144 k are sealed, so they are not the remaining sons of Israel. The remaining sons of Israel were already described in a previous verse. The great crowd are those who are gathered from the two-witness preaching during the great tribulation. They come out of all tribes, tongues, peoples, and nations.

What is the purpose of the two-witness preaching (Rev 11) if not to offer one last chance of repentance to the world?

From the scriptures I see the remaining sons of Israel as all believers in Jesus Christ who are not the bride.

Love,

Steadfast

[watchman]

Hello Steadfast Haven't seen you around in awhile. Didn't know if you flew the coop.

As regards the verse in question, why should the English translation of the Aramaic scriptures be given more weight than the translations based on Greek? None of the Greek-based Scriptures that I am aware of say that the bridegroom arrived with the bride.

watchman

[Utuna]

Dear all,

Here is the verse in question, please click here (http://www.v-a.com/bible/matthew-25.html) !

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Molly]

Hi Steadfast-

Just a question: How is the Murdock translation different that the Lamsa Aramaic. Matthew 25:1 is translated the same as Murdock, but you specified Murdock. Just wondered if there are any significant differences? I have checked my Peshitta often for comparison and there have been usually only slight differences from other translations.

It seems to be clear that the 10 virgins are not the bride.

Molly

[Utuna]

Hello Steadfast Haven't seen you around in awhile. Didn't know if you flew the coop.

As regards the verse in question, why should the English translation of the Aramaic scriptures be given more weight than the translations based on Greek? None of the Greek-based Scriptures that I am aware of say that the bridegroom arrived with the bride.

watchman

Dear Watchman,

I'm not going to give you any direct answer to your question because you asked Steadfast to. But, there are indirect ways to get the answer though.

Please read here (http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/showthread.php?3437-The-Old-Testament-and-us&p=42543#post42543) !

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Steadfast]

Hi Steadfast-

Just a question: How is the Murdock translation different that the Lamsa Aramaic. Matthew 25:1 is translated the same as Murdock, but you specified Murdock. Just wondered if there are any significant differences? I have checked my Peshitta often for comparison and there have been usually only slight differences from other translations.

It seems to be clear that the 10 virgins are not the bride.

Molly

Dear Molly, good to 'see' you. :)

There are several Aramaic translations I use. Lamsa reads the same as Murdock, but I can cut and paste Murdock from E-Sword.



Dear Robert,

Is this place now a chicken coop? rofl

There is a huge controversy about whether the NT was originally written in Aramaic or Greek. In checking between the two, I often find idioms in the Aramaic that seem to get lost in the Greek.

Frankly, I never really understood the Greek 'translation' of Matthew 25:1. It makes no sense to me that the entire bride falls asleep. In the context of timing, the bride is sealed at the beginning of the great tribulation (6th seal), which means she wasn't sleeping, not when Jesus returns for the consummation of the marriage (end of 6th trumpet).

Love,

Steadfast

[uglyandthin]

Dear Molly, good to 'see' you. :)

There are several Aramaic translations I use. Lamsa reads the same as Murdock, but I can cut and paste Murdock from E-Sword.



Dear Robert,

Is this place now a chicken coop? rofl

There is a huge controversy about whether the NT was originally written in Aramaic or Greek. In checking between the two, I often find idioms in the Aramaic that seem to get lost in the Greek.

Frankly, I never really understood the Greek 'translation' of Matthew 25:1. It makes no sense to me that the entire bride falls asleep. In the context of timing, the bride is sealed at the beginning of the great tribulation (6th seal), which means she wasn't sleeping, not when Jesus returns for the consummation of the marriage (end of 6th trumpet).

Love,

Steadfast

Hi Steadfast:

It has been a while since I have looked at the meaning of numbers in the Bible, but from memory I think the number 10 eludes to "earthly completeness", does it not? So, the Ten Virgins to me would seem to be earthly in at least one sense. I for one think that there are more persons who are spirit baptized or "born again" who are not a part of Jesus Bride. Therefore, could these 10 virgins represent the spirit begotten "born again" Sons of God who will rule in the Kingdom of God on earth. Isaiah 32:1

The Kings and Priests who are a part of Christ's Bride will be ruling with Christ in the Heavens. But, no doubt there will be an organizational structure on earth that the heavenly Kings will govern through. Obviously, the Kings in heaven will not be giving instruction directly to all the Citizens of the Kingdom, so it stands to reason that there will be some sort of reflective group on earth whom they will govern through. Perhaps this is who the 10 virgins represent.

uglyandthin

[Steadfast]

Hi Steadfast:

It has been a while since I have looked at the meaning of numbers in the Bible, but from memory I think the number 10 eludes to "earthly completeness", does it not? So, the Ten Virgins to me would seem to be earthly in at least one sense. I for one think that there are more persons who are spirit baptized or "born again" who are not a part of Jesus Bride. Therefore, could these 10 virgins represent the spirit begotten "born again" Sons of God who will rule in the Kingdom of God on earth. Isaiah 32:1

The Kings and Priests who are a part of Christ's Bride will be ruling with Christ in the Heavens. But, no doubt there will be an organizational structure on earth that the heavenly Kings will govern through. Obviously, the Kings in heaven will not be giving instruction directly to all the Citizens of the Kingdom, so it stands to reason that there will be some sort of reflective group on earth whom they will govern through. Perhaps this is who the 10 virgins represent.

uglyandthin

Dear U and T,

The topic of where the kingdom will rule is a fascinating discussion. I posted some thoughts awhile back here:

http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/showthread.php?2206-Where-Does-The-Kingdom-Rule

Paul made two interesting statements:

Heb 11:10 – For he (Abraham) looked for a city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Regarding the earthly city of Jerusalem Paul said:

Heb 13:14 – For here we have no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

If the original earthly Jerusalem was a literal city, then I am thinking that New Jerusalem will also be a literal city. The difference is that the original earthly city was corrupted by men, but New Jerusalem is built by God, beyond the influence and corruption of men.

JWs have long been taught that some receive a 'special' anointing with Holy Spirit. I don't find that in the NT at all, as the NT states that all receive the Holy Spirit and all run the race.

It is up to us how we run it. How was the seed of the Kingdom sown in us?

When the 144k are sealed in finality at the beginning of the great trib, the bride has been selected. The faithful virgin companions will also receive their reward, but only when they enter into the marriage feast of the consummation of the marriage of the Lamb. The final sealing of the 144k and the reward given to the faithful virgin companions take place at opposite ends of the great trib.

Love,

Steadfast

[uglyandthin]

Dear U and T,

The topic of where the kingdom will rule is a fascinating discussion. I posted some thoughts awhile back here:

http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/showthread.php?2206-Where-Does-The-Kingdom-Rule

Paul made two interesting statements:

Heb 11:10 – For he (Abraham) looked for a city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Regarding the earthly city of Jerusalem Paul said:

Heb 13:14 – For here we have no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

If the original earthly Jerusalem was a literal city, then I am thinking that New Jerusalem will also be a literal city. The difference is that the original earthly city was corrupted by men, but New Jerusalem is built by God, beyond the influence and corruption of men.

JWs have long been taught that some receive a 'special' anointing with Holy Spirit. I don't find that in the NT at all, as the NT states that all receive the Holy Spirit and all run the race.

It is up to us how we run it. How was the seed of the Kingdom sown in us?

When the 144k are sealed in finality at the beginning of the great trib, the bride has been selected. The faithful virgin companions will also receive their reward, but only when they enter into the marriage feast of the consummation of the marriage of the Lamb. The final sealing of the 144k and the reward given to the faithful virgin companions take place at opposite ends of the great trib.

Love,

Steadfast

Hi Steadfast:

That scripture in Hebrews 11:10 is an interesting one. It says foundations plural. If there is only one city, why do you need foundations, with an s? The answer is you don't, "if" you only have one city. But this city that is awaited is the city of God and it will be a city of two fold peace.

You will have heavenly Zion where the 144,000 bride of Christ will reign as Kings and they will oversee the city of God on Earth that will be governed, I think, by the Princes in all the earth of Isaiah 32 and will be a corresponding number of 144,000 earthly Kings who will be directed from heaven on a 1:1 basis by the heavenly counterpart.

An interesting clue to this is David's mighty men in 1 Chronicles 27. You will see by reviewing this chapter that there are "12" groups of 24,000, not 12,000 . These could represent the 12,000 who will officiate the Kingdome from the heavens and the 12,000 who will correspondingly officiate from the earth on a 1:1 basis. This could correspond to the trees in Revelation 22:2 whose leaves are for the curing of the nations "each month", just as Davids mighty men were to serve from a different "tree"or "group" each month.

Yes, it is a miopic view that only 144,000 are spirit annointed. Yes, only 144,000 are chosen by God to be a part of his Son's bride or helper, but that does not mean that only 144,000 are spirit annointed.

uglyandthin

[Steadfast]

Hi Steadfast:

That scripture in Hebrews 11:10 is an interesting one. It says foundations plural. If there is only one city, why do you need foundations, with an s? uglyandthin

Dear U and T,

Here are the foundation/s of New Jerusalem:

Rev 21:14 – And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Rev 21:19-20 – And the foundation of the wall of the city having been adorned with every precious stone: The first foundation, jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald; the fifth, sardonyx, the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysophrasus; the eleventh, hyacinth; the twelfth, amethyst.

What you quote from the OT has a WT ring to it. :D The information you post would be relevant to the Levitical priesthood of the Mosaic Law, but Jesus instituted a new priesthood, called the Melchizedek.

Paul told us that the priesthood changed at Hebrews 7:12:

"For the priestly office having been changed, of necessity a change of law also occurs."

I cannot apply Levitical things to the Melchizedek priesthood when John the Baptist was the last legitimate priest under the Mosaic Law.

Love,

Steadfast

[Utuna]

Dear U and T,

Here are the foundation/s of New Jerusalem:

Rev 21:14 – And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Rev 21:19-20 – And the foundation of the wall of the city having been adorned with every precious stone: The first foundation, jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, chalcedony; the fourth, emerald; the fifth, sardonyx, the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, topaz; the tenth, chrysophrasus; the eleventh, hyacinth; the twelfth, amethyst.

What you quote from the OT has a WT ring to it. :D The information you post would be relevant to the Levitical priesthood of the Mosaic Law, but Jesus instituted a new priesthood, called the Melchizedek.

Paul told us that the priesthood changed at Hebrews 7:12:

"For the priestly office having been changed, of necessity a change of law also occurs."

I cannot apply Levitical things to the Melchizedek priesthood when John the Baptist was the last legitimate priest under the Mosaic Law.

Love,

Steadfast

Dear Steadfast,

Please read :

"Certainly, therefore, YOU are no longer strangers and alien residents, but YOU are fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members of the household of God, and YOU have been built up upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone. In union with him the whole building, being harmoniously joined together, is growing into a holy temple for Jehovah. In union with him YOU, too, are being built up together into a place for God to inhabit by spirit." - (Eph2:19-22)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Steadfast]

Dear Steadfast,

Please read :

"Certainly, therefore, YOU are no longer strangers and alien residents, but YOU are fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members of the household of God, and YOU have been built up upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone. In union with him the whole building, being harmoniously joined together, is growing into a holy temple for Jehovah. In union with him YOU, too, are being built up together into a place for God to inhabit by spirit." - (Eph2:19-22)

Exactly! (Where is that thumbs-up icon. :))

[Jeshurun]

Dear Steadfast,

Please read :

"Certainly, therefore, YOU are no longer strangers and alien residents, but YOU are fellow citizens of the holy ones and are members of the household of God, and YOU have been built up upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, while Christ Jesus himself is the foundation cornerstone. In union with him the whole building, being harmoniously joined together, is growing into a holy temple for Jehovah. In union with him YOU, too, are being built up together into a place for God to inhabit by spirit." - (Eph2:19-22)


Which begs the question in my mind,

Considering the hundreds of millions of Christian martyrs over the last 2,000 years, not to mention the hundreds of millions that prophecy says will "wake up" over the final part of the days, how does Jehovah, or Jesus, select 144,000 if this is a literal number?

Love,
Jesh

[FutureMan]

Which begs the question in my mind,

Considering the hundreds of millions of Christian martyrs over the last 2,000 years, not to mention the hundreds of millions that prophecy says will "wake up" over the final part of the days, how does Jehovah, or Jesus, select 144,000 if this is a literal number?

Love,
Jesh

Perhaps, it is a case of the "best of the best", of those faithful ones who are being selected for the Kingdom if the number of 144,000 is to be a literal number.

Looking from a human point of view, if you were to select members for your Kingdom or government to rule with you, would you not select those who are the most qualified and have being well and truly tested in all respect as to there qualifying for this position of responsibility?

I know I would, that is for certain.

But of course that is my opinion, from a human standpoint.

[Jeshurun]

Perhaps, it is a case of the "best of the best", of those faithful ones who are being selected for the Kingdom if the number of 144,000 is to be a literal number.

Looking from a human point of view, if you were to select members for your Kingdom or government to rule with you, would you not select those who are the most qualified and have being well and truly tested in all respect as to there qualifying for this position of responsibility?

I know I would, that is for certain.

But of course that is my opinion, from a human standpoint.

Yes, it is so important to remember that all of this is speculation from a human standpoint. I just find it curious that, according to the Watchtower's own dogma, considering that the "anointed remnant" is now growing every year, that somebody is either delusional, or it's not a literal number.

I wonder why the number 144,000 is selected when it just happens to be the number of harmonic resonance. Since no one but them can learn the "song", me thinks there is something to it.

Love,
Jesh

[Utuna]

Which begs the question in my mind,

Considering the hundreds of millions of Christian martyrs over the last 2,000 years, not to mention the hundreds of millions that prophecy says will "wake up" over the final part of the days, how does Jehovah, or Jesus, select 144,000 if this is a literal number?

Love,
Jesh

My dear brother Jesh,

Many people believe that the number 144 000 is not to be taken litteraly but as a symbolic number. Frankly, I don't see where the problem is whether that number is litteral or not.

If Jehovah is able to call millions of Christians to heaven (according to the belief of most, if not all of Christendom (excepted the JWs)), why wouldn't He be able to call 144 000 anointed ones only if He wished to ?

Among all Christian believers, how many people are really willing to forsake their lives and are craving for the end of their assignment (Phil1:23; 2Cor5:1-10) so that they can, at last, join their Lord in heaven... ? How many ? Why don't all Christians feel the same ? In all religions of Christendom, some people are really eager to go to heaven and many others don't ? Why is it so if all Christendom is Jesus' bride ?

How does Jehovah select 144 000 individuals ? Just as He did in the first century and even as He did earlier with ancient prophets... through his Holy Spirit... :

"Now because YOU are sons, God has sent forth the spirit of his Son into our hearts and it cries out: “Abba, Father!” So, then, you are no longer a slave but a son; and if a son, also an heir through God." - (Gal4:6-7)

"But he who guarantees that YOU and we belong to Christ and he who has anointed us is God. He has also put his seal upon us and has given us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit, in our hearts." - (2Cor1:21-22)

How was Paul chosen as apostle in the first century ? Did Paul feel frustrated when he was appointed as one of the most famous apostles and writers of the Bible whereas he isn't even among the 12 foundation stones of God's temple ? Wouldn't the apostle Paul deserve that reward more than some of the 12 apostles about whom we have never read anything (letter or spiritual comment) in the Bible? Did Paul ever say that he was frustrated of being considered as a second-class apostle ?

I hope that I have answered your question.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Steadfast]

Many people believe that the number 144 000 is not to be taken litteraly but as a symbolic number. Frankly, I don't see where the problem is whether that number is litteral or not.


Dear Utuna,

I agree, otherwise there would have been no dividing of the 144k from the rest of the sons of Israel. We know that the 144k are the ones who rule with Christ for the 1000 years:

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and behold, a Lamb stood on mount Zion; and with him the number of a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name and the name of his Father written upon their foreheads.

Rev 14:4 These are they who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. These are they who followed the Lamb, where ever he went. These have been redeemed by Jesus from among men, the first fruits to God and the Lamb.

First fruits = First Resurrection: Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in this first resurrection: over them the second death hath no dominion; but they shall be, [nay] are, priests of God and of his Messiah; and they will reign with him the thousand years.

So we are back at the 144k being a limited number taken from the sons of Israel.

Love,

Steadfast

[Utuna]

Dear Utuna,

I agree, otherwise there would have been no dividing of the 144k from the rest of the sons of Israel. We know that the 144k are the ones who rule with Christ for the 1000 years:

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and behold, a Lamb stood on mount Zion; and with him the number of a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name and the name of his Father written upon their foreheads.

Rev 14:4 These are they who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. These are they who followed the Lamb, where ever he went. These have been redeemed by Jesus from among men, the first fruits to God and the Lamb.

First fruits = First Resurrection: Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in this first resurrection: over them the second death hath no dominion; but they shall be, [nay] are, priests of God and of his Messiah; and they will reign with him the thousand years.

So we are back at the 144k being a limited number taken from the sons of Israel.

Love,

Steadfast

Dear Steadfast,

Yes, I agree with everything you said.

One big detail : the 144k aren't taken from but sealed out of the 12 tribes of Israel (Rv7:3-4). The difference of meaning between "taken from" and sealed out" is quite significant and may lead to erroneous understandings...

I have some questions to ask you but I don't have the time for it this morning.

@ plus ! ;)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[mrgalleria]

Steadfast wrote "These remaining sons of Israel will receive correction through the preaching of the two-witnesses, but do they repent?"

Alo ha,
Since the Two Witnesses are not sent by Jehovah, nor Jesus, nor represent them,
how do sons of Israel "receive correction"?
What is "the preaching of the two-witnesses"?
Where is it taught that the son's of Israel receive correction from the two witnesses?

Steadfast wrote "The great crowd are those who are gathered from the two-witness preaching during the great tribulation. They come out of all tribes, tongues, peoples, and nations.
What is the purpose of the two-witness preaching (Rev 11) if not to offer one last chance of repentance to the world?"

Again now, how does a great crowd become "gathered" to God
from the preaching of two witnesses who do not even represent Him?
Does the Bible infer anywhere that the two witnesses preach "repentance"?

Futureman said "Perhaps, it is a case of the "best of the best", of those faithful ones who are being selected for the Kingdom if the number of 144,000 is to be a literal number.
John the Baptist was said to be one of greatness,
yet he will not enter the heavenly kingdom, neither will Moses, etc.
It is not a matter of who is "best".
Look at Peter, he made some mistakes that you would think
Jesus would have never overlooked.

Life on this earth is just as great a reward as serving in heaven.
Angels forsake heaven to live on the earth. The earth is a style of heaven.
Look at the food God has given us.
Never take for granted that this planet is for God's "best".
Bill

[Steadfast]

Since the Two Witnesses are not sent by Jehovah, nor Jesus, nor represent them.

Dear galleria,

How would you explain who the two witnesses are?

Rev 11:3 And I will give to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, dressed in sackcloth.

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two lampstands, standing before the God of the earth.

Rev 11:5 And if anyone desires to harm them, fire comes out of their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone desires to harm them, so it is right for him to be killed.

Rev 11:6 These have the authority to shut up the heaven, that no rain may rain in the days of their prophecy. And they have authority over the waters, to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.

Rev 11:7 And when they complete their witness, the beast coming up out of the abyss will make war with them, and will overcome them, and will kill them.

Here is some additional information:

Who are the two witnesses?

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.

There are two olive trees, but on each of those trees are many olives. The two lampstands would picture that their prophesying would be done with the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, which is what oil in the Bible represents.

If we take this prophecy and compare it to the one in Zechariah, this is what we see:

Zec 4:2 And he said to me, What do you see? And I said, I see, and behold, a lampstand, all of it gold, and a bowl on its top, and its seven lamps on it, and seven pipes to the seven lamps on its top;

Zec 4:3 and two olive trees beside it, one on the right of the bowl, and the other on the left of it.

Zec 4:12 And I answered a second time and said to him, What are the two clusters of olive trees beside the two golden pipes, emptying the golden oil from themselves?

Zec 4:14 And he said, These are the two sons of fresh oil who stand by Jehovah of the whole earth.

The word translated as clusters (or branches), comes from the Greek word shibboleth. The meaning of this word is:

From the same as H7640; a stream (as flowing); also an ear of grain (as growing out); by analogy a branch: - branch, channel, ear (of corn), ([water-]) flood, Shibboleth.

An ear of grain or corn is made up of many kernels. This definition conveys the idea of two groups made up of many parts as the olive trees.

Will be waiting to hear your ideas about who the two witnesses are.

Love,

Steadfast

[Anthony]

Dear galleria,

How would you explain who the two witnesses are?

Rev 11:3 And I will give to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, dressed in sackcloth.

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two lampstands, standing before the God of the earth.

Rev 11:5 And if anyone desires to harm them, fire comes out of their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone desires to harm them, so it is right for him to be killed.

Rev 11:6 These have the authority to shut up the heaven, that no rain may rain in the days of their prophecy. And they have authority over the waters, to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.

Rev 11:7 And when they complete their witness, the beast coming up out of the abyss will make war with them, and will overcome them, and will kill them.

Here is some additional information:

Who are the two witnesses?

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.

There are two olive trees, but on each of those trees are many olives. The two lampstands would picture that their prophesying would be done with the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, which is what oil in the Bible represents.

If we take this prophecy and compare it to the one in Zechariah, this is what we see:

Zec 4:2 And he said to me, What do you see? And I said, I see, and behold, a lampstand, all of it gold, and a bowl on its top, and its seven lamps on it, and seven pipes to the seven lamps on its top;

Zec 4:3 and two olive trees beside it, one on the right of the bowl, and the other on the left of it.

Zec 4:12 And I answered a second time and said to him, What are the two clusters of olive trees beside the two golden pipes, emptying the golden oil from themselves?

Zec 4:14 And he said, These are the two sons of fresh oil who stand by Jehovah of the whole earth.

The word translated as clusters (or branches), comes from the Greek word shibboleth. The meaning of this word is:

From the same as H7640; a stream (as flowing); also an ear of grain (as growing out); by analogy a branch: - branch, channel, ear (of corn), ([water-]) flood, Shibboleth.

An ear of grain or corn is made up of many kernels. This definition conveys the idea of two groups made up of many parts as the olive trees.

Will be waiting to hear your ideas about who the two witnesses are.

Love,

Steadfast

Your awesome, Great post. I would like to see what the response will be in return. I don’t know if you read the following thread, but it should give some idea of the mentality you will be dealing with.


http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/showthread.php?3815-I-Got-Mad-and-I-am-Not-Sorry

[mrgalleria]

Alo ha,
Steadfast- do you realize that you answered five questions from me with a question?
Anthony has made a point, in directing you to a topic which does answer your questions.
But what we would all like is for you to answer my five original questions.

It was the strong angel who had his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot upon the earth,
that will cause HIS two witnesses to prophesy.
At Rev. 11:4 and 11:8 the angel is referred to as their Lord, the Lord of the earth.
You have assigned two tasks to the two witnesses which are not present in the Bible-
repentance and gathering.

Do you find any difference between two lampstands (Rev.); and
one gold lampstand of seven lamps with seven pipes and with a bowl on top (Zach.)?
I do.

Do you find any difference between two olive trees; and
two olive trees, one on each side of the gold lampstand,
with two bunches of twigs pouring a golden liquid (Zach.)?
I do.

Zach. 4:14 does not say "Jehovah of the whole earth" as you have mis-quoted,
it states "Lord of the whole earth" NWT, or "Master of all the earth". The Scriptures
Bill

[Steadfast]

Alo ha,
Steadfast- do you realize that you answered five questions from me with a question?
Anthony has made a point, in directing you to a topic which does answer your questions.
But what we would all like is for you to answer my five original questions.

It was the strong angel who had his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot upon the earth,
that will cause HIS two witnesses to prophesy.
At Rev. 11:4 and 11:8 the angel is referred to as their Lord, the Lord of the earth.
You have assigned two tasks to the two witnesses which are not present in the Bible-
repentance and gathering.

Do you find any difference between two lampstands (Rev.); and
one gold lampstand of seven lamps with seven pipes and with a bowl on top (Zach.)?
I do.

Do you find any difference between two olive trees; and
two olive trees, one on each side of the gold lampstand,
with two bunches of twigs pouring a golden liquid (Zach.)?
I do.

Zach. 4:14 does not say "Jehovah of the whole earth" as you have mis-quoted,
it states "Lord of the whole earth" NWT, or "Master of all the earth". The Scriptures
Bill

Aloha Bill from Hawaii,

Since you asked the questions and proceeded to answer that you do see a difference, I'll wait for you to explain what you see, while I'm still waiting for you to explain who the two witnesses are.

I laid out my case...let's see yours. :D

Love,

Steadfast

[Anthony]

Aloha Bill from Hawaii,

Since you asked the questions and proceeded to answer that you do see a difference, I'll wait for you to explain what you see, while I'm still waiting for you to explain who the two witnesses are.

I laid out my case...let's see yours. :D

Love,

Steadfast

Don’t hold your breath waiting, he doesn’t like to answer questions by actually answering them (because he has none) but rather just ask you a question back.

Example: William assuming the angel and the two witnesses are whoever you claim they are, just answer the following as to the identity. Come on just 6 little words!
the angel is swearing to who?
the voice?
they?
God ?
a loud voice?

Rev 10:5 And the angel that I saw standing on the sea and on the earthraised his right hand to heaven, 6 and by the One who lives forever and ever, who created the heaven and the things in it and the earth and the things in it and the sea and the things in it, he swore (the angel is swearing to who?): “There will be no delay any longer; 7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to blow his trumpet, the sacred secret of God (?)according to the good news which he declared to his own slaves the prophets is indeed brought to a finish. 8 And the voice (?) that I (John) heard out of heaven is speaking again with me (John) and saying “Go, take the opened scroll that is in the hand of the angel who is standing on the sea and on the earth.” 9 And I (John) went away to the angel and told him to give me (John) the little scroll. And he said to me (John): “Take it and eat it up, and it will make your (John) belly bitter, but in your(John) mouth it will be sweet as honey.” 10 And I(John) took the little scroll out of the hand of the angel and ate it up, and in my(John) mouth it was sweet as honey; but when I(John) had eaten it up, my(John) belly was made bitter. 11 And they (?) say to me (John): “You (John) must prophesy again with regard to peoples and nations and tongues and many kings.”

Rev 11:11 And after the three and a half days spirit of life from God (?) entered into them (the two witnesses), and they (the two witnesses) stood upon their (the two witnesses) feet, and great fear fell upon those beholding them (the two witnesses). 12 And they (the two witnesses) heard a loud voice (?)out of heaven say to them (the two witnesses): “Come on up here.” And they (the two witnesses) went up into heaven in the cloud, and their (the two witnesses) enemies beheld them (the two witnesses).

[mrgalleria]

"I laid out my case...let's see yours."

Alo ha,
I, personally, don't have much of a case, but Jehovah does.
Up until I started this topic cited below, I was unsure of who the Two Witnesses were.
http://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/forum/showthread.php?3815-I-Got-Mad-and-I-am-Not-Sorry
I explained therein what I learned, as I learned it.

I find two things odd- One that you ask me to (re)state my case,
and Two, that Anthony said I don't answer questions.
I have already said that I don't have every answer to every question
(nor do I want to have that ability), so I even attempted to speculate on a few answers,
and stated those speculations as such.

1. I learned from Holy Spirit that the Two Witnesses are the US and Israel.
I proved this to myself by being given an understanding of how the prophesy of the Two was fulfilled in "fire from their mouths", "shut up heaven", "strike the earth with plague", "turn waters to blood".
The Two being olive trees and lampstands demonstrates that they are not individual persons.
I happened to recall that there was a plant on the US dollar bill.
To my own surprise only olives, olive leaves, and olive branches were there on it.

2. The Two do not literally go into heaven with God, because those on the earth can see them.
So this is figurative, in that they return to life and are very temporarily glorified in position.

3. I became filled with joy, that Jehovah had shown me so much favor,
by granting me this information. Jehovah has given me many things,
but this was striking to me in that I may have been the first to learn this.
And it only occurred because I was truly indignant that Jehovah would send
two prophets who would come, and only do harm. It seemed senseless.
Now I am indignant with myself, for not seeing something so plainly obvious.

4. The beast who wars with the Two is the Leopard/Bear/Lion beast,
symbolized by China-Middle East/Russia/One or more European countries.
I confess that I can only take a little bit at a time, and so Jehovah is patient with me.
For now I understand that the things which were sealed up
until the time of the end are now being unsealed.
I find it a miracle that I am having a part in this.
Don't even ask what makes me think I deserve this,
because I certainly am much more puzzled by it than you.

5. The broad way or street where the bodies of the Two lie
is in the visible view of the information super-highway, or internet.
The great city is figuratively the greatest city ever- those ones on the internet.

6. God put in my mind- who said this "I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy"?
I was surprised that it was not God, or Jesus. Because even if it had been,
the interpretation could remain valid. Now I learned it was the Lord of the earth.
We know that all things, including governments, stand placed in their relative positions by God.
So this Lord is the symbol of this authority, but not necessarily responsible
for every act a government, business, etc., may commit.

7. The spirit of Sodom was violent and perverse.
The spirit of Egypt was decadent, ungodly, dominating and egotistical.
These spirits do not symbolize Jerusalem, where Jesus was impaled with torture.
The Lord of the Two was impaled in the great city with the spirit of Sodom and Egypt.
The symbols for Sodom and Egypt can easily be associated with the internet and those on it.
Their Lord was impaled, but no mention is made that their Lord died.
Their Lord is being tortured by those on the internet (great city) by having
the Lords authorities exposed (Codex, swine flu, vaccines, fluoride, 911, etc.),
and the authorities plans are brought to failure.
Without the internet, this never would have happened.

In spite of what I have taught, some here insist that the Lord
spoken of here is Jesus, that the Two are prophets yet to come
who will literally perform the expected signs,
they don't know the great city or street,
they think the strong angel is working for righteousness.

I have explained all of these things with known, real world objects.
What Jinnvisible would call real world tangibles.
No abstracts, no future events, no fantastic SIGNS, no conflicts, no unsolved mysteries.

I truly fail to see the confusion.
As I have said, if you are waiting for something else,
you got a long wait, for nothing.
Bill

[mrgalleria]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDe65-nF3FQ&feature=related

"There is no way that the US and Israel are going to tolerate any resistance in the Arab world."
"because Israel is determined with the US, to put the Arabs in their place and to keep them in their place."
"Do you know what the Jewish attitude is? Never to forgive, never to forget."

[watchman]

"I laid out my case...let's see yours."

I have explained all of these things with known, real world objects.
What Jinnvisible would call real world tangibles.
No abstracts, no future events, no fantastic SIGNS, no conflicts, no unsolved mysteries.

I truly fail to see the confusion.
As I have said, if you are waiting for something else,
you got a long wait, for nothing.
Bill

Truly you have a dizzying intellect.

watchman

[shikinah]

Dear galleria,

How would you explain who the two witnesses are?

Rev 11:3 And I will give to My two witnesses, and they will prophesy a thousand, two hundred and sixty days, dressed in sackcloth.

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two lampstands, standing before the God of the earth.

Rev 11:5 And if anyone desires to harm them, fire comes out of their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone desires to harm them, so it is right for him to be killed.

Rev 11:6 These have the authority to shut up the heaven, that no rain may rain in the days of their prophecy. And they have authority over the waters, to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.

Rev 11:7 And when they complete their witness, the beast coming up out of the abyss will make war with them, and will overcome them, and will kill them.

Here is some additional information:

Who are the two witnesses?

Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth.

There are two olive trees, but on each of those trees are many olives. The two lampstands would picture that their prophesying would be done with the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit, which is what oil in the Bible represents.

If we take this prophecy and compare it to the one in Zechariah, this is what we see:

Zec 4:2 And he said to me, What do you see? And I said, I see, and behold, a lampstand, all of it gold, and a bowl on its top, and its seven lamps on it, and seven pipes to the seven lamps on its top;

Zec 4:3 and two olive trees beside it, one on the right of the bowl, and the other on the left of it.

Zec 4:12 And I answered a second time and said to him, What are the two clusters of olive trees beside the two golden pipes, emptying the golden oil from themselves?

Zec 4:14 And he said, These are the two sons of fresh oil who stand by Jehovah of the whole earth.

The word translated as clusters (or branches), comes from the Greek word shibboleth. The meaning of this word is:

From the same as H7640; a stream (as flowing); also an ear of grain (as growing out); by analogy a branch: - branch, channel, ear (of corn), ([water-]) flood, Shibboleth.

An ear of grain or corn is made up of many kernels. This definition conveys the idea of two groups made up of many parts as the olive trees.

Will be waiting to hear your ideas about who the two witnesses are.

Love,

Steadfast

This was an excellent explanation, and it definately shows that these two witnesses are definately from Jehovah, as they have enemies for making people aware of whats about to befall them.

Rev 11:5 "And if anyone desires to harm them, fire comes out of their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone desires to harm them, so it is right for him to be killed."

There is definately a witnessing on a level thats causing signs even more so than the apostles.


Shikinah

[Steadfast]

The word translated as clusters (or branches), comes from the Greek word shibboleth. The meaning of this word is:

From the same as H7640; a stream (as flowing); also an ear of grain (as growing out); by analogy a branch: - branch, channel, ear (of corn), ([water-]) flood, Shibboleth.

Dear Friends,

I need to make a correction here. The word shibboleth is actually from Hebrew. It doesn't change the meaning, but it was an oversight on my part.

In Revelation 11, the word 'trees' is translated from the Greek word: elaia:

Strong's G 1636: Feminine of a presumed derivative from an obsolete primary; an olive (the tree or the fruit): - olive (berry, tree).

Sorry if there was any confusion for anyone.

Love,

Steadfast