2 Th 2 - Are We Seeing The Things Mentioned Here Today.

[Juan]

While listening to eW's new video his mention of the "operation of error" led me to look-up 2 Th 2. It seem to me the things mentioned there is what is exactly happening to us (JWs) today. What do you think brothers?

[Kenneth]

The operation of error is fundamental to the issue in the Watchtower and it's this operation that will stumble so many in the end. I have mentioned the scripture to some and reasoned on the issue in that how can Christendom represent that man of lawlessness when he sits in the temple of the God, it can't. The reaction is one of curiosity.

Watchman made an interesting point in his Revelation blog this week. He points out that that Watchtower has made it clear that Christendom are not Christian, however the Watchtower pours all the scriptural denunciations upon it. Hence if Christendom isn't Christian why would Christ bother to write to them, what would be the point as they are just part of Babylon the Great?

[barry]

I found it really interesting to read this part. It is exactly what we can see happening in our days in the organisation.
Verse 15 'So, then, brothers, stand firm and maintain YOUR hold on the traditions that YOU were taught, whether it was through a verbal message or through a letter of ours' is also interesting. We need to keep tight to what we are told via the bible and be careful for things which are not in the bible.

[stayawake]

Good Morning family
IMHO if I may
That 2Thess 2:1-12 is my favorite. Not all can see the fullfillment in our present time. YET
It took me awhile to see it, and once you see it ,then its as plain as day'

IMHO
once one realizes, that Paul makes it clear that the Temple of God is made up of living stones ( the annointed ) then, ones eyes are opened.
To even sit in that Temple,and have the nerve to sit in that Temple and sit down as a god, that man of lawlessness would have to also profess to be of the annointed.
This is exactly what we are witnessing at present.

Read the first three verses.
The annointed are being forwarned, respecting the presence of Christ
They were not to believe in a inspired expression, a verbal message or a letter,that would speak about Christ presence, and their being gathered to join him.
The true sons of God ( the wheat )were being warned not to believe this , as the apostasy, had to come first.

This is why Jah allowed this to go on in his Temple (the weeds & wheat ) so those who really did not love the Truth would be those who believed the lie. 2Thess 2:1-12
What will help one under stand this better,
as Watchman has brought out Jah is just dealing with HIS HOUSE

These are HIS adopted sons ( the wheat ) That has grown among the weeds that satan had planted in with them.
The weeds would have you believe it is Christandom clergy that is the man of lawlessness when in reality it is them.

Like Ken sees from watchmans essays, why in the world would Jah disipline Christendom, they Never had the TRuth to begin with.

Sure they had the Bible but until one gets to know the ONE TRUE GOD Jehovah and understand the Ransom sacrfice of christ, that he died to buy back what Adam lost, which was ever lasting life on earth, then they never had the truth.

What we are seeing right now is the apostasy that was to take place right before Christs presence

Believe me if any one is giving the proper food at the proper time, it certainly is not coming from the WT.
With all of us alert on this board I can see why the WT will make thier WT studies private,
those inside will just accept what they are told.
Love every one of you
stayawake

[Jeshurun]

2Thess. ch. 2:

[b]<sup>

<div align="left">(Revelation 22:15) Outside are the dogs and those who practice spiritism and the fornicators and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone liking and carrying on a lie.’</div>
<div align="left">So, if this prophecy applies to the last 1600 years since the Great Apostasy, how many millions, if not billions of people who died under the deception of the Pope, or whatever other would-be Antichrist, will be back in the resurrection? Clearly this is an apostasy that occurs immediately before the Lord&#39;s Day, with a true application to "this generation". On top of that, it would suggest that Jesus sure is pretty slow in doing away with the &#39;man of lawlessness&#39;. And if a leader of Christendom has sat down in the Temple of "THE" God, then that would mean that Jesus is God, because that&#39;s who their God supposedly is, that is, along with Mary and a host of Saints, not to mention the Holy Spirit. </div>
<div align="left">Lou</div>
<div align="left"> </div>
</span></span>

[Shibboleth]

I see it this way Jesh, there was a huge apostasy after the last of the apostles died. why? because there was no longer the proper guidance given and people started beating on each other. So the apostasy started because man lorded himself over other men. we can reference that time to today. There will most likely be an apostasy within our own organization, if it hasn&#39;t started already. The apostasy will come from within and it will be people we won&#39;t expect. Of course there will be those who flagrantly apostasize against the Christ and against God, but there will bo others who do it in secret. Namely they will lord themselves over their fellowman.

How long did it take for the original congregation that Jesus instituted become wicked? Not long maybe a little over 100 years or so. Likewise today we may see the same exact thing start to happen within our own &#39;righteous&#39; organization. there are men within that are doing the wicked ones deeds right now. They are just hiding themselves.

[Molly]

Hi All-

I think we can already see the apostacy under way just from some of the WT studies that have been discussed over the past several weeks, and most of us have been aware of deviations from Bible truth in WT publications for several years, so the revealing of the man of lawlessness could not be too far ahead.

So, my question is what is acting as the restraint? 2 Thess. 6-9 reads: "And so now you know the thing that acts as a restraint, with a view to his being revealed in his own due time. True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work; but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to out of the way. Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth andbring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. But the lawless one&#39;s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents." Certainly the apostles while alive were a restraint in the 1st century but what about now? Or, can we know this at present?

Molly

[stayawake]

When was it that the annointed ,were told by the GB that Christ presence was here and they were all going to be gathered together with Christ ?
2 Thess 2;1-3 Those body members were being told not to believe that LIE The apostasy had to come first. WE are eye witnesses to that apostacy.
IMHO
One is a apostate when they deviate from Gods word,and become a false prophet.
Christndom never knew the truth ,The roman emperior mixed the good wine with water deluting the Pure truth with the pagan doctrines that we came out of.
IMHO
Jesh and Ken are right they are part of Babyllon.

THe apostacy is found in those first three scriptures
I only speak for myself

love stayawake

[stayawake]

Hi Molly,
THats a good question. Hope you don&#39;t mind if I take a stab at it.
IMHO
I feel that if Jehovah allows
this operation of error to go out that HE or HIS son would be the only one holding it back until it was time for it to be revealed.
Being we already know what we know about the man of lawlessness , is already a indication as to how close we are to Christs presence.
Come on family share your thoughts here, of course that includes you too bro watchman

love stayawake

[Elihu]

i think the parable of the wheat and the weeds is the key to understanding thess Ch2

Christ tells us that he sows a seed, a true christian seed: the sons of God,the wheat
satan infiltrates the christian crop with his seed the sons of the devil, the weeds

so we now know that in the field is a mixed crop

christ then tells us that it is when the seeds grows to a crop and starts to produce fruit that it becomes apparant that the christian crop is contaminated.

The slaves notice this and ask the master if he wants them to to collect the weeds.

the masters answer is no! wait in case you damage the wheat.
Christ is preventing the exposure of the weeds until it is absolutely clear just who the weeds are and who the wheat are, and this requires time to pass.
we are nearing the culmination of that time period due to the fact that you as slaves have recognised that there is weeds in the crop that you are part of.


notably in Thess 2 Paul said " the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work"

so the crop has been growing since pauls day, but it is now becoming apparant that there is weeds in the crop today.
the man of Lawlessness is starting to show himself and shortly Christ will step out of the way and give the order to the angels.

just my thoughts
elihu

[Nambo]

I have to say looking at this text that I find it more fitting of Christendom in general.

Firstly, allthough Constantine started the Catholic church, probably there where original "annointed Christians" back then who went along with the great apostasy that is surely much worst than what the society get wrong, that is, replacing worship of Jehovah with Nimrod Sun worshipping to the detriment of countless millions of would-be-Christians, a real Apostasy!

The statement about the Man of Lawlessness publicly showing himself to be a god, surely could have no greater fullfillment than in the Pope?

The revealing of the Man of Lawlessness will be of huge significance to all mankind, not just a few million JWs.

As for the final three verses about God allowing people to belive the lie because they did not accept the Love of the truth with the result they will be judged and perish, surely this cannot appliy to all are dear Brothers and Sisters who do Love truth, many who have left Christendom in order to pursue Truth?
When I met people on the service who could see what thier Bible said but prefered thier religion, I could see how this scripture would apply to them, but surely not to the Brothers?

Though there could well come a time when the Brothers are tested as to wither they prefer the JW organisation than to what Jehovah wants them to do, but then surely this would make the Watchtower Society just as much a part of Babylon the Great as the rest of Christendom with the admonision to "get out of her my people"?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 (http://) However, brothers, respecting the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we request of YOU 2 (http://) not to be quickly shaken from YOUR reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here.

3 (http://) Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 (http://) He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god. 5 (http://) Do YOU not remember that, while I was yet with YOU, I used to tell YOU these things?

6 (http://) And so now YOU know the thing that acts as a restraint, with a view to his being revealed in his own due time. 7 (http://) True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work; but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to be out of the way. 8 (http://) Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 (http://) But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents 10 (http://) and with every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. 11 (http://) So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, 12 (http://) in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.

[eyes&ears]

Barry said: We need to keep tight to what we are told via the bible and be careful for things which are not in the bible.


I say AMEN, AMEN AND AMEN.

This is why it is so important for us to HOLD ON TIGHT AND DON&#39;T LET JEHOVAH GO. Especially at this time. If I am fortunate to go through the GT and make it into the new system I will be saying HOLD ON TIGHT TO JEHOVAH, HOLD ON TIGHT TO JEHOVAH, hoooollllllllldddddd on tight....... right up until the new scrolls are opened and forever and ever, I will HOLD ON TIGHT TO JEHOVAH.

Sisterly Love,

E & E

[Dorcas]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_13_15.gif Jehovah makes it grow!
Dearest Friends,
After reading your wonderful posts, I shall just add LOYALTY. Each and every day we are being tested as to our loyalty to Jehovah, Jesus, the Truth, and those who are serving Jehovah in Truth. Bible study teaches us what Jehovah expects, the Holy Spirit helps us remember the counsel so we can do what is right. The final test for all of God&#39;s people will be LOYALTY. That is the bottom line and the most difficult for us to develop because we have a desire to please people who we can see. Staying loyal to an invisible God ain&#39;t easy! It will require every ounce of agape love we can muster to keep our eyes on the unseen prize...
May Jehovah give each of you an extra portion of his spirit.
Love, Dorcas http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/11/11_1_200.gif

[stayawake]

Dear Dorcas, thats it in a nut shell "LOYALITY".
Each and everyone of us will be put to this Test, There is no excaping it.
WE have a great advantage as we know it, the rest of the friends and the world have yet to see what we see.
We are really blessed. Let me tell you in MHO the reason we see what we see.
Its because we already took sides with Jehovah. So as long as we stay close to HIM, he will never forsake us.
The final showdown will be "TO whom do we Belong !
love stayawake

[Elihu]

hi nambo,

having read your post i can understand why you say that it is more likely that the pope is in fact the MOL
however i re-read watchmans essay on the subject and he makes some striking points to support the idea that the MOL comes from withn the Christian organisation and sits down in the temple of the God.

1} when paul was warning the Thessalonians about false letters etc saying that the day of jehovah had come, and reminding them that it would not come uintil the MOL is revealed, paul was obviously giving a time marker, showing that the day of jehovah would be immediatley preceeded by an apostasy.
If the apostasy Paul was referring to was applied to Christendom then it would be impossible to recognise this marker due to the centuries of existance of Christendom.

2} watchman points out that TMOL sits down in the temple of the God, and reasons that it would be impossible for christendom to infiltrate Jehovahs annointed Sons,therefore the MOL must be residing among the true sons.


i understand your concerns, the only question that keeps bothering me about this topic is the term "the temple of THE GOD" why does paul not simply say the temple of Jehovah?

share your concerns about the implications of this view of the MOL but humbly suggest that you re-examine watchmans essay in his book

Elihu

[Candace]

Elihu, I wondered about that terminology too. So I looked at the footnote for "the temple of The God" and found this:

*** Footnote ***


Rbi8 2 Thessalonians 2:4



“The God.” Gr., tou The‧ou′; J17,22(Heb.), ha‧’Elo‧him′, “the [true] God.” See Ge 5:22 ftn, “God.”

So I guess it could also be read as "the temple of the true God" and that makes sense to me. I hope this helps.

[Elihu]

Elihu, I wondered about that terminology too. So I looked at the footnote for "the temple of The God" and found this:

*** Footnote ***


Rbi8 2 Thessalonians 2:4



"The God." Gr., tou The‧ou′; J17,22(Heb.), ha‧&#39;Elo‧him′, "the [true] God." See Ge 5:22 ftn, "God."

So I guess it could also be read as "the temple of the true God" and that makes sense to me. I hope this helps.[/b]


thanks Candace,

that certainly does clarify that terminology for me, that has been bugging me for sometime and i had considered the possibility that it could be referring to a Temple belonging to false religion belonging to a false God, but i found watchmans essay on this subject to be in line with scriptural reasoning.

again, thanks Candace

[Olm]

Ok so in the begining of 2thess is it talking about 1914 when Paul says "do not be quickly shaken from your reason nor be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verberl message or through a letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here." Also what is the operation of error? Is it 1914?

[Jeshurun]

Ok so in the begining of 2thess is it talking about 1914 when Paul says "do not be quickly shaken from your reason nor be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verberl message or through a letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here." Also what is the operation of error? Is it 1914?[/b]

Olm, I think you&#39;ve got it.

[Kenneth]

Next to the memorial 1914 is the most important date on the Watchtower’s calendar and is set in stone. The very foundation of the Watchtowers prophetic word is built on it and if it goes it all goes. As far as JWs are concerned the teaching is unassailable. For JWs the collapse of the 1914 teaching is going to be their greatest test to date. That’s why Jehovah has allowed it to develop as a test of faith. In the end its going to be about either putting faith in an organization or in Jehovah.

[Candace]

Click here (http://e-watchman.com/essays/visible-presence-of-christ.html) for the essay on The Visible Presence of Christ. Here&#39;s an excerpt from about the half-way point:

Quote:
That the parousia deception is specifically directed towards God&#39;s holy ones from a trusted source within the accepted Christian arrangement is self-evident, which is why Paul issued the warning to be on guard against seemingly inspired expressions, verbal messages and letters, as though from the apostles, announcing that "the day of Jehovah is here."

Given the context of Paul&#39;s warning, it is apparent that the campaign to convince Christ&#39;s followers that the presence of the Lord has already begun emanates from the man of lawlessness, who, as Paul warned, would be firmly ensconced in the spiritual "temple of The God" when the actual manifestation of the presence of Christ exposes and destroys him.

In view of the obvious falsity of the 1914 parousia doctrine we might wonder why the Watchtower Society is so convinced of it. Undoubtedly, like the presence of the man of lawlessness, the faux parousia propaganda is also "according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents and with every unrighteous deception." The reason millions of Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses whole-heartedly embrace the Society&#39;s 1914 teaching is because of "the operation of Satan," which supports "an operation of error" that Jehovah allows to go to those who otherwise know the truth, but who fail to "accept the love of the truth that they might be saved."
End Quote

[Olm]

this all makes better sence now, however who is the one holding the man of lawlessness back? it dosent sound like it is Jesus, the one acting as a restriant. who is the one acting as a restriant?

[Jeshurun]

this all makes better sence now, however who is the one holding the man of lawlessness back? it dosent sound like it is Jesus, the one acting as a restriant. who is the one acting as a restriant?[/b]

I think it&#39;s the faithful members of the Governing Body, whoever they are. The last I heard, the GB met weekly to discuss official matters and required a 2/3 vote on any issue. Perhaps when a few more of them pass on and are replaced, it will enable the man of lawlessness to adopt a fully apostate position on future issues.

In Paul&#39;s day I believe he was referring to the apostles themselves, through their teaching and letters to the congregations. Paul prophesied that after they were all passed on, the Great Apostasy would develop. But as it will turn out, the Greatest Apostasy is yet to come. Kind of a lesser and greater fulfillment, I think.

Maybe someone else can explain it better, this has always been a tough one for me too.

[Olm]

well when i read the scriptures, to me it sounds like it would be satan as the one acting as a restriant. because when you read 2thess chapter 2:6-8 it says "but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to be out of the way. Then indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the lord Jesus will do away with......" Jesus gets out of the way? I just don&#39;t see the one acting as a restriant being Jesus but i&#39;m just not sure.

[Jeshurun]

well when i read the scriptures, to me it sounds like it would be satan as the one acting as a restriant. because when you read 2thess chapter 2:6-8 it says "but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to be out of the way. Then indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the lord Jesus will do away with......" Jesus gets out of the way? I just don&#39;t see the one acting as a restriant being Jesus but i&#39;m just not sure.[/b]

Olm, check out how the Watchtower incriminates themselves, in the "God&#39;s Kingdom Has Approached" book, chapter 18:
^</span>51[/sup] From such apostolic writings exposing bad conditions that were coming to the surface here and there in the congregations, we can identify whom the apostle Paul means by the expression "he who is right now acting as a restraint." (2 Thessalonians 2:7) He means, not some individual male member of the entire congregation of God on earth, not any individual apostle like himself, but the entire body of the true apostles of Jesus Christ in that first century. That body of apostles, like a composite person, was then, "right now," as Paul times it, standing in the way of the organizing of a corporate "man of lawlessness" within the entire Christian congregation and in control of it. Consequently, that which was "right now acting as a restraint" was taken "out of the way" of the developing "mystery of this lawlessness" when the last one of Christ&#39;s true apostles was taken away in death. This may have been the apostle John, who died near the end of the first century C.E.

</span>

[Olm]

The WT way of explaning it dosent seem to work for me. The apostles during that time are the ones acting as the restriant? It says that perhaps John who was the last one to die, was when the restraint got to be out of the way after John died. Reason why this dosent work for me is because the bible says after the restraint is out of the way the mystery of the lawless is revealed. Has anyone one or group of people been acused of being the lawless one that sets himself in Gods temple? It seems like a way for the WT to make it look like there is no lawless one among them, that it was over 2000 years ago this lawless one. We know that when it says the lawless one sets himself in Gods temple, the temple are the chosen ones or the 144,000. Yet I don&#39;t know of anyone being acused of being the lawless one.

[Jeshurun]

Hi Olm

The Wt would have us believe that the Great Apostasy of 1600 years ago would be the fulfillment of the MOL sitting in the Temple of The God. Even though they themselves claim that Christendom is not even Christian. It&#39;s also ludicrous to think that Paul would be talking about an apostasy that would have to develop before the "Lord&#39;s Day", but it would take all these centuries for him to be revealed. Clearly Paul was warning against believing the words of people who claimed to be "apostles" that the Presence of Christ, along with his rulership, had already begun. Clearly the 1914 deception is what Paul was referring to, the "operation of error". It would also apply to the many false interpretations of prophecy regarding the onslaught of Armageddon. As far as I know, no other mainstream religion has claimed such things, other than the Watchtower.

Watchman&#39;s many essays regarding the false Parousia are very detailed and enlightening.

Agape
Lou