Bethel Law

[Jinnvisible]

A case revisited

The internet site ”Quotes” was a site that sought to show the strangeness of some of the watchtowers writing by exhibiting only extracts of the publications without comment.

Obviously the point of this being that it was unnecessary even to make a criticism of the watchtower, in order to show some of the troubling thinking.

http://www.watchtowerinformationservice.org/jws-vs-the-world/watchtower-shuts-down-quotes-website/ (http://www.watchtowerinformationservice.org/jws-vs-the-world/watchtower-shuts-down-quotes-website/)

The watchtower’s attitude has been that any criticism of the publishing institution derives from satan and therefore is fair game for legal action. What is interesting about this particular case is the fact that the one method that this particular person employed had no criticisms. Yet the WTBTS legal dept. went after him purely because they could. They had a strong legal case for copyright protection.

So the question here is not whether the WTBTS was entitled under the law to have this site shutdown. The question here is should they have done that simply because they were able to ? Especially as the site contained no criticism or commentary.

Copyright law is a tool of creative business community, yet it is not God’s own law.
Therefore the wider implications of using the law of the land as a tool to serve Jehovah’s purpose should be taken into consideration.

For instance if the U.S. or foreign governments offered the watchtower society the option to shut down all opposer sites under anti-hate laws, what are the possibilities that they would not reject that offer in the name of free speech ? The implication being that should Bethel legal decide to use the law of the land to wage theocratic law, without considering the further consequences, it could (and may have already) participated in the encouragement of a’ total shutdown` atmosphere in the legal community.

Alex Jones has reported that he has now been effectively banned in New Zealand and that draconian internet laws are being shoe horned into place by corporate / governmental fascist like thinkers who seek to remove the ability of the marginal to organize or inform at a financially affordable level, using the world web

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tx36f-8qwpo&feature=player_profilepage

The U.S. constitution does not specifically incorporate God’s purpose within it. Supreme court judges have ruled in favor of the continuing ministry of Jehovah’s witnesses, when they exercise reasonability they consider that a person may reject the message at the door. If they were to be continually harassed then that could be dealt with at a county court level. They have determined that to actually ban the ministry is restrictive.

If the authorities can be that reasonable so as to protect a ministry that they have no particular interest in purely for the principle of freedom should not the watchtower have been gracious enough not to shutdown the “Quotes” website purely because it was able to under copyright law.

1) It was obviously not a case of a person attempting to pass the work off as their own.

2) It was not a case of a person attempting to mutate the work which would infringe something called ‘Copyright parentage law’.

3) It was not a case of a man attempting to make money from the enterprise.

Taking those points into consideration they may have had the legal opportunity under man’s law to have it shutdown but in what way does it show reasonableness which is required under God’s law ?Hence the Watchtower Societies obvious position is that the ~ Quotes ~ website could lead people to unfavorable conclusions about the organization of Jehovah’s witnesses. Yet at what cost?

Does this not for instance then give the United Nations a legal premise for shutting down the WTBTS if they quote the U.N. or attempt to implicate it as unfavorable according to prophesy.

[SlaveForJah]

Does this not for instance then give the United Nations a legal premise for shutting down the WTBTS if they quote the U.N. or attempt to implicate it as unfavorable according to prophesy.

Sure it does. But isn't the gaining of that sort of "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours", de facto protection from being shut down the whole purpose of the Watchtower entering into that political alliance in the first place?


Agape

SlaveForJah

[FutureMan]

A case revisited

The internet site ”Quotes” was a site that sought to show the strangeness of some of the watchtowers writing by exhibiting only extracts of the publications without comment.

Obviously the point of this being that it was unnecessary even to make a criticism of the watchtower, in order to show some of the troubling thinking.

http://www.watchtowerinformationservice.org/jws-vs-the-world/watchtower-shuts-down-quotes-website/ (http://www.watchtowerinformationservice.org/jws-vs-the-world/watchtower-shuts-down-quotes-website/)

The watchtower’s attitude has been that any criticism of the publishing institution derives from satan and therefore is fair game for legal action. What is interesting about this particular case is the fact that the one method that this particular person employed had no criticisms. Yet the WTBTS legal dept. went after him purely because they could. They had a strong legal case for copyright protection.

So the question here is not whether the WTBTS was entitled under the law to have this site shutdown. The question here is should they have done that simply because they were able to ? Especially as the site contained no criticism or commentary.

Copyright law is a tool of creative business community, yet it is not God’s own law.
Therefore the wider implications of using the law of the land as a tool to serve Jehovah’s purpose should be taken into consideration.

For instance if the U.S. or foreign governments offered the watchtower society the option to shut down all opposer sites under anti-hate laws, what are the possibilities that they would not reject that offer in the name of free speech ? The implication being that should Bethel legal decide to use the law of the land to wage theocratic law, without considering the further consequences, it could (and may have already) participated in the encouragement of a’ total shutdown` atmosphere in the legal community.

Alex Jones has reported that he has now been effectively banned in New Zealand and that draconian internet laws are being shoe horned into place by corporate / governmental fascist like thinkers who seek to remove the ability of the marginal to organize or inform at a financially affordable level, using the world web

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tx36f-8qwpo&feature=player_profilepage

The U.S. constitution does not specifically incorporate God’s purpose within it. Supreme court judges have ruled in favor of the continuing ministry of Jehovah’s witnesses, when they exercise reasonability they consider that a person may reject the message at the door. If they were to be continually harassed then that could be dealt with at a county court level. They have determined that to actually ban the ministry is restrictive.

If the authorities can be that reasonable so as to protect a ministry that they have no particular interest in purely for the principle of freedom should not the watchtower have been gracious enough not to shutdown the “Quotes” website purely because it was able to under copyright law.

1) It was obviously not a case of a person attempting to pass the work off as their own.

2) It was not a case of a person attempting to mutate the work which would infringe something called ‘Copyright parentage law’.

3) It was not a case of a man attempting to make money from the enterprise.

Taking those points into consideration they may have had the legal opportunity under man’s law to have it shutdown but in what way does it show reasonableness which is required under God’s law ?Hence the Watchtower Societies obvious position is that the ~ Quotes ~ website could lead people to unfavorable conclusions about the organization of Jehovah’s witnesses. Yet at what cost?

Does this not for instance then give the United Nations a legal premise for shutting down the WTBTS if they quote the U.N. or attempt to implicate it as unfavorable according to prophesy.

Hello Jinnvisible I would think that the avoidance of tax would be a legal premise for shutting down the WTBTS in the near future, when the US government are really scratching for money to keep their economy going.

[uglyandthin]

Sure it does. But isn't the gaining of that sort of "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours", de facto protection from being shut down the whole purpose of the Watchtower entering into that political alliance in the first place?


Agape

SlaveForJah

Hi SFJ:

The scripture in Revelation 13:10b says "If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword." Written a little differently, If anyone will kill with the legal powerplay, he must be killed with the legal powerplay.

I think the U.N. or whatever world body that takes over, when they want to get rid of the Watchtower and all it's sub corporations, they (the U.N. or whomever) will have the legal power and means to run them out of business for good. I just don't know if the Watchtower will last that long.

Really, when Jehovah wants them gone, they are history. He will keep them alive only long enough to show them and everyone else that "I am Jehovah".

uglyandthin

[Jinnvisible]

Sure it does. But isn't the gaining of that sort of "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours", de facto protection from being shut down the whole purpose of the Watchtower entering into that political alliance in the first place?


Agape

SlaveForJah

It crossed my mind.

I intentionally didn’t write that in because the interest then shifts to the NGO-DPI alliance scandal and the reasons for it ect. Its not that I don’t want to discuss that. I’m just interesting in this aspect of 'legal easy kill'

As to the reasons for the UN DPI association I don’t think that has been very easy to ascertain. There is a peculiar intangibility to it. The e-robman wrote about it in connection with a passage from the prophets, Ezekiel maybe, where ancient Israel is questioned as to the nature of her spiritual / political infidelity. The prophet describes it as strange, as most prostitute’s at least charge a fee thus exposing motive, whereas Israel was receiving no tangible benefit. An incident that I feel might mirror this kind of situation is when Israel asked Samuel to appoint a King. He told them that if their demands were met it would result only in loss for them in terms of taxation and other factors. Their protest continued under the strange reasoning that they wanted to be just like all the other nations.

I don’t really think it is an area that has been fully exposed. It is easier to look at terms and documents of the U.N. D.P.I. than it is to get those at Bethel to express their thinking on it. The idea that they might receive some kind of protection from the U.N. by associating is a very believable motive. Certainly believable compared to the bizarre official statement that it was to gain a library card lol (rofl). That’s almost like saying `It was an accident`. Even that has a ring of innocent naivety to it. Having ‘an accident’ also compellingly suggests an apology is in order. This is simply what you do when you accidentally do something wrong.

Perhaps it is possible to gain further insight on that. Nonetheless the Silent lambs cases seem to show Bethel acting as legal pragmatists rather than spiritual men.

The impetus to ‘shut down’ where possible voices of decent, rather than choose to weather and suffer them, for the noble cause of free thought and free speech. Especially when the legal position is ascertained. In the cases of the 'silent lambs' where gag orders where obtained it seems as if the Bethel Legal dept. is acting very pragmatically. So that the legal apparatus itself is not considered by bethel a process to obtain justice, it is rather a mechanism of self defense.

When the apostle counseled not to take your spiritual brother to the courts he was talking about what we consider personal wrongs, things that you could choose to take someone to court over or not. Such as a money debt. Or accidental property damage or a business disagreement. These are what are thought of as civil suits. However Paul was not talking about obstructing criminal suits. Cases where the crime is heinous enough for the state to consider it a crime against the state itself. Such as murder, rape ect. being a crime against general citizenry. The apostle wasn’t counseling about that because in his apprehension it was inconceivable that this should even be taking place within the Christian congregation. In fact when Paul did expel a man from the Corinthian cong. he described it as handing the man over to satan.

Of course it is understood that the WTBTS does not consider the publisher of the Quotes site to be a spiritual brother. However that is not the only consideration here. People read about these legal decisions all the time in the press, for many people who look for justice free speech is an issue that has to be watched generally in society. The courts make landmark rulings in this case, or that case, so it is all taken stock of. With that in consideration wouldn’t it have been more reasonable for Bethel legal to exercise self restraint rather than looking purely at the tactical issue of win or no win.

[Jinnvisible]

Hello Jinnvisible I would think that the avoidance of tax would be a legal premise for shutting down the WTBTS in the near future, when the US government are really scratching for money to keep their economy going.

Yeah, its amazing what they do with tax law.

Its all bendy.

[Jinnvisible]

"If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword." Written a little differently, If anyone will kill with the legal powerplay, he must be killed with the legal powerplay.

This is the concern.

Pontius pilate questioned Jesus.

Jesus states to Pilate if you repeat anything I say in print or mis quote their will be long lasting legal ramifications.

Isn`t their something wrong with this picture ?

[shikinah]

This is the concern.

Pontius pilate questioned Jesus.

Jesus states to Pilate if you repeat anything I say in print or mis quote their will be long lasting legal ramifications.

Isn`t their something wrong with this picture ?

YES THERE IS, and after reading sundays watchtower which applies to their own, are we suprised? The orgs starting to resemble the heavy duo Phil & Grant Mitchell:p
But seriously its definately wrong.

[Tsaphah]

But seriously its definately wrong.

I think this quote bears repeating.

“A church which claims infallibility in all its doings as well as for all its doctrines will neither listen to a cry for needed reforms nor avert calamity. And it will not even learn from history. Already there are signs of the beginning of the end, if only those who could avert evil by reading them aright would read them.” Pg. 157, The Nun of Kenmare: An Autobiography

[Anthony]

http://www.watchtowerinformationservice.org/jws-vs-the-world/watchtower-shuts-down-quotes-website/ (http://www.watchtowerinformationservice.org/jws-vs-the-world/watchtower-shuts-down-quotes-website/)


I enjoyed his site. I use to view before it was shut down. I liked that all that needed to be said was done just by the WT's own words.

I like this site too:
http://www.jwfacts.com/

[Jinnvisible]

I enjoyed his site. I use to view before it was shut down. I liked that all that needed to be said was done just by the WT's own words.

I like this site too:

http://www.jwfacts.com/ (http://www.jwfacts.com/ [/QUOTE)

Well thats very interesting because it makes the point.

That Jwfacts site actually contains critisism.

Although the 'Quotes' site contained no critisism it was easier under the law to shut it down.

So Bethel Legal shut down the site with no critisism, purely because they have the power to do so under the law, and the one with critisism gets to survive.

I know that sometimes E-bobmon and his admin Kelvin Kline don`t like links to such like sites, because they are a bit of a downer. So I`m not on a campaign for the insistance that anything should be posted linked or avaliable online. I`m interested in self restraint when it comes to the weilding of power.

Its a very different thing to say i don`t want a link to that, - on my site or forum, to actually attempting to get something shut down for everyone.

We ususally think of self restraint when it comes to things like eating & drinking. Yet there is a strong case to be made for self restraint when it comes to the weilding of power. More especially perhaps the weilding of secular power. When Bethel legal dept. moves to do something like shut down the Quotes site it is not using theocratic order to do it, it is weilding the law of the land, the law of this system. I don`t think that is something that should be taken up lightly. In the cases of weightier matters like rape there has been a strong counsel to resist involving the law.

So how can you just take it up for something comparitively trivial like the quotes site ?

How can you counsel about a rape accusation ' wait on Jehovah '.......

....and then not be prepared to leave WT Quotes website to Jehovah ?

Oh no, Quotes is serious we can leave that to Jehovah,,,, rape who can say ??

[Jinnvisible]

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TheAlexJonesChannel#p/u/3/lU5lDiZRBnM

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TheAlexJonesChannel#p/u/2/1zs-49UfJbQ

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TheAlexJonesChannel#p/u/1/i0OlaR_JiK8

This is as addendum to the concern I was expressing about the WTBTS unneccesary weilding of secular law.

What has been identified as a widespread problem is the inability of leading men to allow a sense of freedom to exist within a framework of discipline. John reports in his letters that God's spirit has a tendancy to freedom.

This happens to be an identical trait of the comming Antichrist world government.

We can see that the uneccessary wielding of control measures is feeding into the control soiciety as a whole. I believe unfortunately that the WTBTS has perhaps to a certain extent unwittingly bought into this.

The links are to Alex Jones segments discussing how the governments are actually in league with the corperation to shut down free speech on the internet using a false front of piety i.e. to restrict all "the badness".

Its false. If this is reality why didn`t the government close down sweet shops that sold tobacco ? rather than take thier cut in taxes from tobacco sales ?

Why do the governments continue to allow big tobacco to make billions of pounds out of the victims of addiction.

In other words the government will allow a confectionary [newsagent] shop (primarily children cusomers) and family grossary stores to sell top shelf porn magazines and tobacco taking an actuall financial slice of the cake with regard to tobacco sales.......

...............but they are so kind and concerned that they want to shut down freedom of speech on the web for your own protection ?

Its a rouse.

[billy2]

the wt org seems to be more concerned with its image than truth

on the subject of the govenment spying on its citizens - those were interesting revelations of the use of the of the intenet for spying on people - planes flying over peoples properties and spying on them (which i have just had a personal situation with) as well as the satilite spying are 2 other areas the govenments are using - big brother is on its way and technology is the tool being used

[FutureMan]

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TheAlexJonesChannel#p/u/3/lU5lDiZRBnM

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TheAlexJonesChannel#p/u/2/1zs-49UfJbQ

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TheAlexJonesChannel#p/u/1/i0OlaR_JiK8

This is as addendum to the concern I was expressing about the WTBTS unneccesary weilding of secular law.

What has been identified as a widespread problem is the inability of leading men to allow a sense of freedom to exist within a framework of discipline. John reports in his letters that God's spirit has a tendancy to freedom.

This happens to be an identical trait of the comming Antichrist world government.

We can see that the uneccessary wielding of control measures is feeding into the control soiciety as a whole. I believe unfortunately that the WTBTS has perhaps to a certain extent unwittingly bought into this.

The links are to Alex Jones segments discussing how the governments are actually in league with the corperation to shut down free speech on the internet using a false front of piety i.e. to restrict all "the badness".

Its false. If this is reality why didn`t the government close down sweet shops that sold tobacco ? rather than take thier cut in taxes from tobacco sales ?

Why do the governments continue to allow big tobacco to make billions of pounds out of the victims of addiction.

In other words the government will allow a confectionary [newsagent] shop (primarily children cusomers) and family grossary stores to sell top shelf porn magazines and tobacco taking an actuall financial slice of the cake with regard to tobacco sales.......

...............but they are so kind and concerned that they want to shut down freedom of speech on the web for your own protection ?

Its a rouse.

Yes I agree with you Jinnvisible, in my opinion this business of controlling the Internet because of child pornography, racism, or in the interest of national security etc, is all a front so that they can control freedom of speech especially in regards to whistle-blowers and corruption etc.

PS To control copyrights for software and media such as music and videos, is another reason why they want to control and limit the use of the Internet for the average person.

[arimatthewdavies]

the bible mentions that the slave got drunk and started to beat the fellow slaves,well ive read some of the quotes from the literature,and i will have to admit that spirtual drunk people made them! ok most people have got drunk at least once in their life, so im not gonna get on the w.b.t.s.butt to hard because they like to get drunk! but i am going to remind everyone about what happened when knoah got drunk one son went and blabed hey daddys drunk and naked! and one son covered him up and sent him to sleep. see the bible is so full of good examples of what to do,when we hear or read a ludocrous statement instead of blabing it we need to use the brain god gave us and keep our leaders drunkeness a private matter until they sober up, neither bethel,or the governing body or the society have supernatural infalable god men runing the place! they are men just like me and you! they are foretold in the bible to make mistakes so big deal lets make our mistakes with the knowledge that we are humans! we will goof up .now let all wake up grow a pair of spirtual 00s and be men of jehovah as often as we can be, and when we goof up admit it loudly! say woops i goofed clean up the mess and move on!

[Jinnvisible]

Thread bump in regard to Watchman's open letter.


http://e-watchman.com/home/2010/6/23/an-open-letter-to-the-watchtower-society.html

I applaud the drive. Sad sate of affairs.


It certainly does look like guilt when a pay off is made against an accusation.

It is not always the situation though. There are a number of reasons why an individual or entity might pay off a false accusation. One very obvious reason is because they don’t trust the legal system to be fair or unprejudiced against them and they have the money.

It is never right to reward false accusation, so in the case that an accusation is made and it is thought by the accused, that the charge against them is false, they should never make the pay off. Although that doesn’t mean they won’t

I think this fits somewhat the profile of the Watchtower.

I’m not convinced that they actually believe they are guilty but they are prepared to make a pay off because they use the law when it suits them as a tool, but they don’t actually believe in it. So it is considered a kind of disconnection. Theocratic warfare. Anything is fair game so long as the best result is acquired.

I also believe this is the case because the WTBTS has a long history connected with the U.S. legal system. Next to the increase in statistics [with regard to membership] the great area of victory as far as Bethel is concerned is the cases in law the society has won to protect the ministry work.

Check out this link also from a Barbara Anderson page.

1978_Hayden_Covington_Interviewed_By_Jerry_Murray. mp3 (http://www.watchtowerdocuments.com/downloads/1978_Hayden_Covington_Interviewed_By_Jerry_Murray. mp3)

It is fascinating. When you consider that Brother Joseph “The Judge” Rutherford the second president of the Watchtower was himself a lawyer. I think in the interview with Hayden Covington you can also see a positive side of Rutherford.

What some people sometimes fail to realize is that it was not a case of a Lawyer becoming something else i.e. changing into a corporate president. It was the case that at this time much of the fight was about legal rights to preach and remain politically neutral. At this time the vanguard of the fight for truth was a fight carried out in law courts, the Supreme Court. So it was no accident that lawyers were the leadership of Jehovah’s witnesses.

All this of course creates a history of the WTBTS and its dealings with the law courts. In one sense the time of Rutherford lawyering was a pioneering situation. Hayden Covington held the record for most Supreme Court wins by anyone practicing at the bar. After their heyday when most of the landmark rulings had been made and cases won the legal aspect was not so much the vanguard but the theological side such as was the area of the Franz family moved to the fore. However lawyers stayed at the top of the corporation and it became a venerated internal department. Due to this kind of history I don’t think it is easy to apprehend what the legal minds really think by what they do in a court of law. They obviously don’t put abuse victims first.

They probably believe that they are right to pull anything; the history of the legal dept is a history of the means by which the association of Jehovah’s Witness has continued to exist.