why do we believe in a future paradise earth?

[elihu]

why do we believe in a paradise earth?

the teaching of a paradise earth is notably absent, or at least not forcefully taught both in the gospels and in the letters of the new testament

however when teaching Jesus did touch on it at times
for example in his sermon on the mount he said

"blessed are the meek for they will inherit the earth"
matt 5:5

his teaching on prayer

"let your will be done on the earth as it is done in heaven"
matt 6:10

but mainly both he and his disciples preached a heavenly reward

" but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moths or rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal"
matt 6:20

" therefore holy bretheren partakers of the heavenly calling"

hebrews 3:1

"therefore bretheren having boldness to enter the holiest by the blood of Jesus"
hebrews 10:19

" by which having been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world lust"
2Peter 1:4

" beloved , now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when he is revealed, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is"

1 john3:2

just a few scriptures where either a heavenly calling is mentioned or an expected change of state is spoken of.

so why is the earthly paradise not a prominent feature in the new testament?
and is there any evidence that the first century congregations had earthly hopes or were even aware of such a hope?
and why would Jehovah have his word written in such a way that unless a person puts the pieces together, so to speak, they could be unaware of any earthly destination?

elihu

[watchman]

Before Christ the Jews had no expectation of being resurrected to heaven. That is why the apostles at first could not get their minds around what Jesus was talking about when he spoke of his death and going away. However, after his death they got it. So, the heavenly hope was a revolutionary thought among the Jews. All anointed Christians in the 1st century embraced the hope of a heavenly resurrection and that is why the focus of the New Testament is all about the heavenly hope. However, the book of Revelation ties the two "hopes" together, showing there is going to be 144,000 bought from the earth in heaven and a great crowd who come out of the tribulation, plus untold numbers of the dead, who inherit the new earth.

watchman

[Molly]

I'd like to say ditto to what Watchman said.

The Jews never understood a resurrection to heaven prior to Jesus. They always thought that it would be on earth. With good reason. The scriptures make it clear that Jehovah always intended for man to live on the earth. Note Jeremiah 45:18:

For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens. He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and Maker of it. He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited. "I am Jehovah, and there is no one else."

Okay, so you have your kings and priests in heaven (144,000) and they are going to rule as kings and priests. Over what? The obvious understanding is that it would be over those resurrected to the earth. Otherwise, it would be like being in charge of an aquarium with no fish. Being kings and priests would amount to a joke. You simply have to have someone to rule over for it to have any meaning. So, while the New Testament is about the invitation to those who would serve God as he requires (in spirit and truth), there is also the place for the resurrected ones to live on the earth under the rule of those who are called, chosen and faithful. This also takes into consideration that the "New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God as a bride adorned for her husband." Coming down out of heaven sounds to me like it means that God, through the bride, will be with the man on earth. It says "the tent of God" will be with mankind. I don't think that we can confuse mankind with the spirit persons.

So, it stands to reason that there are people who will be resurrected to inhabit the earth and a chosen few that will rule with Christ.

Molly

[Tsaphah]

I'd like to say ditto to what Watchman said.
The scriptures make it clear that Jehovah always intended for man to live on the earth. Note Jeremiah 45:18:

For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens. He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and Maker of it. He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited. "I am Jehovah, and there is no one else."
Molly

Molly, I believe you meant to list Isaiah 45:18 here. Thank you Robert.
I now understand why Jesus became frustrated with some of the questions that the disciples asked. (Jn 14:8-9)

[Utuna]

Dear elihu,

After the outpouring of Holy Spirit, the apostles understood many things about different kinds of hope that were possible even before Jesus' death.

Please read :

"Concerning this very salvation a diligent inquiry and a careful search were made by the prophets who prophesied about the undeserved kindness meant for YOU. They kept on investigating what particular season or what sort of [season] the spirit in them was indicating concerning Christ when it was bearing witness beforehand about the sufferings for Christ and about the glories to follow these. It was revealed to them that, not to themselves, but to YOU, they were ministering the things that have now been announced to YOU through those who have declared the good news to YOU with holy spirit sent forth from heaven. Into these very things angels are desiring to peer." - (1Pe1:10-12)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Molly]

Molly, I believe you meant to list Isaiah 45:18 here. Thank you Robert.
I now understand why Jesus became frustrated with some of the questions that the disciples asked. (Jn 14:8-9)


Yes, Tsaphah-

I did mean Isaiah 45:18. Thank you for pointing that out.

Molly

[elihu]

Before Christ the Jews had no expectation of being resurrected to heaven. That is why the apostles at first could not get their minds around what Jesus was talking about when he spoke of his death and going away. However, after his death they got it. So, the heavenly hope was a revolutionary thought among the Jews. All anointed Christians in the 1st century embraced the hope of a heavenly resurrection and that is why the focus of the New Testament is all about the heavenly hope. However, the book of Revelation ties the two "hopes" together, showing there is going to be 144,000 bought from the earth in heaven and a great crowd who come out of the tribulation, plus untold numbers of the dead, who inherit the new earth.

watchman

thanks Robert

that is so obvious now that you,ve said it.

the sadducees showed their lack of understanding when they questioned Jesus about the resurrection

assuming that he would be unable to answer their trick question about seven brothers who all married the widowed wife of their brother

"therefore, in the resurrection whose wife does she become? For all seven had her as wife"

Jesus replied

"the sons of this age marry and are given in marriage.
But those who are counted worthy to attain to that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry or are given in marriage"
"nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels, and are Sons of GOD, being sons of the resurrection"
luke 20

dear Molly,

i cannot argue with your logic, it makes a lot of sense

i just wish there was a bit more in the NT that really showed that an earthly hope was a reality not just for mankind , but also explained how one could believe in Christ but not be heavenly bound.
the reason i say this is because it is so easy for those who believe that scripture teaches that you either are a son of God or you are a son of the wicked one.
their claim is that there is no middle ground,
it can hurt when they call you a pedestle Christian.


dear Friend Utuna,

you always say something just at the right time, something that i had missed in my understanding.


"Concerning this very salvation a diligent inquiry and a careful search were made by the prophets who prophesied about the undeserved kindness meant for YOU. They kept on investigating what particular season or what sort of [season] the spirit in them was indicating concerning Christ when it was bearing witness beforehand about the sufferings for Christ and about the glories to follow these. It was revealed to them that, not to themselves, but to YOU, they were ministering the things that have now been announced to YOU through those who have declared the good news to YOU with holy spirit sent forth from heaven. Into these very things angels are desiring to peer." - (1Pe1:10-12)

thanks everyone
anymore scriptures or logic to strengthen my belief in an earthly paradise, and how a person can believe in Christ but not attain a heavenly resurrection is much appreciated.

elihu

[Tsaphah]

i just wish there was a bit more in the NT that really showed that an earthly hope was a reality not just for mankind , but also explained how one could believe in Christ but not be heavenly bound.
the reason i say this is because it is so easy for those who believe that scripture teaches that you either are a son of God or you are a son of the wicked one.
their claim is that there is no middle ground,
it can hurt when they call you a pedestle Christian.


Dear Elihu,
It is important to remember what is said, “Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,” (Jn 11:25) What is to become of Able, Seth, Abraham, Isaac, Isaiah, Daniel, etc. All of those of ancient times didn’t believe in Jesus, or put faith in him, because he didn't exist on the earth at that time. So what location will they be resurrected to? What was the promise given to them? What was the original purpose for humankind? (Ge 1:26-30; 2:15)

"Now there came to Him some of the Sadducees ( who say that there is no resurrection )..." (Lk 20:27) That is why they are "Sad-you-see?" What did they believe would happen to those who die, if they didn't believe in a resurrection? Did they believe that everyone goes to heaven? The lie that everyone goes to heaven, when they die, has been around in ancient civilizations for thousands of years. Why is this “myth” so widely spread throughout the world?

The Bible, answers all of these questions. Thoroughly answers them! The only way to get the answers is to study God’s word daily, with prayer and effort. That is why the apostles exhort everyone to be diligent in their study. Look these words up to refresh our memory of the true meaning of them.

(This is also for all you lurkers and so called Christians who think YOU know)

May Jehovah and His Christ bless you with more knowledge, Elihu.

Tsaphah

[Gilligan]

,,,pure FAITH, that's the key,,,

When you go door-to-door as a little kid, talking to people about Jehovah & His Son, believing in a great and wonderful thing, there is no way in this Universe that a living God can deny you His things, His Promises,,,

[Jahsdisciple]

Just like we have our "bible",so they had theirs which was the Hebrew scriptures. The hope there was the earthly hope,even if you died. Job didnt use the word ressurection,yet he knew he would be there"when he would rise". He knew Jahs original purpose would still be carried out. The "wolf residing with the Lamb" is a constant theme that they knew..and it reflected the only hope for us at the time..things pertaining to the earthly hope.

Jah was also called the God of the living refering to Abraham,Isacc and Jacob,so even though they were dead at the time,they were alive to Jah as He would make them alive again. Their being dead would not stop Him. They were already alive to Him. So sure was his original purpose,not even death would stop it happening.

So this was taken for granted in that they knew their hope was the same as Job's.

Then Jesus now showed they were going to heaven to be with him And Jah..no wonder there was a bit of competition...what a radical concept,to go where both Jesus and Jah are. That must have taken some getting used to. So even though there was now a new hope,the same original hope was still there reflected in that...the purpose of Gen 1:26-28.

Jah cannot lie and not even death would stop Him from this. Jah will not be MADE into a liar by some who try to stop Him in this purpose. If satan was successful in stoping Jahs original purpose,then he would have made Jah a liar...and this wasnt going to happen.

Not just because of the 'liar issue",but because Jah had plans for others in the physical realm to enjoy being in His image. This value could not be allowed to be lost ! the potental for others who had a life without having the chance to enjoy what they were supposed to enjoy,could not happen.

Gen1:26-28. All that we enjoy and will enjoy will be via being in that image of Jah and Jesus. That was the original purpose that would not be allowed to be lost. Living forever on earth to enjoy that gift is part of that blessing. If Jah lives forever,then so do we if we are from Him. Living forever is part of the gift NOT the gift altogether. What would be the point of living forever if we didnt have a life like Jahs...if life was pointless and we had no direction,which being in Jahs image will give us ?

Jahs life is purposfull because of his values and in giving them to us will make our life beyond our current comprehension in Joy and Love. All because of that original gift.

The new hope was in conjunction with his original plan,they would be Kings to make the earth what He originaly planned. To bring all who had lived back to the original condition Jah had planned for all and to be in His image. This was a new plan to get that done. He does not change His original purpose or goal,but He does invent new ways to get around those who are stupid enough to try and stop Him.

Nothing will stop him from sharing the most important values He has discovered...and what He wanted to share with us to begin with...to be like Him.

No matter where we end up living,the heavens or the earth,his original purpose of ALL living beings to enjoy being in His image will be carried out. Its to important and valuable to be lost..and He wont let that happen.

[elihu]

thanks Tsaphah,

your thoughts are very much appreciated, and yes i recogconise scripture of the OT alluding to an earthy resurrection.
indeed that is where most of the scripture refering to an earthly paradise is found.

however i have always found difficulty explaining and defending the teaching of an earthly paradise in the context of Christs words which basically set out the standards for being a heavenly bound Christian.

he makes some really strong statements about what it means to be his follower and a believer,
i wont list all the scriptures in full because everyone here knows them

for example

"enter by the narrow gate......."

"foxes have holes......."

"follow me and let the dead bury their own dead"

"love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you"

The last one, well i just cannot help being amazed everytime i read it.

he also supplied a warning

"therefore whoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, i will liken him to a wise man who built his house on a rock...."

"but everyone who hears these sayings of mine , and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on sand"

anyway the point is Christ was teaching belief in Him but importantly belief and practice of what he taught

so when Christ told Martha " he who believes in me will live even if he dies"

what did he mean by believe?

so from my view of the scriptures it seems to be all or nothing with Christ and i find it difficult knowing that i fall well short of those things, and yet consider myself a believer.


The Bible, answers all of these questions. Thoroughly answers them! The only way to get the answers is to study God’s word daily, with prayer and effort. That is why the apostles exhort everyone to be diligent in their study. Look these words up to refresh our memory of the true meaning of them.



however i think you have already answered my questions, or at least directed me to where those answers can be found and understood

thanks Tsaphah

[elihu]

Hi JD

yes i agree that is the picture that i also see, and i suppose that picture must be viewed whole not disjointed and seperated and then used to form an opinion that all believers are heavenly bound.

however becuase we live in the times of the new testament rather than the old then it follows that it is the NT that most "christians" read the most.
also they are taught by their organisations that heaven is for all and there is only one other place and that is HELL
its enough to scare you to want to go to heaven isn't it.

i really wish there was some strong evidence in the NT, specifically in the words of the Lord proving that those living today, believing in Christ are earthly bound.
or perhaps it is the case that Futureman has proposed that all of us should strive to be Sons of God and leave the selection process up to God at His judgment.
i think he may well be correct, but as for myself i have an uphill battle just to get a resurrection with the righteous.

many thanks JD

elihu

[Utuna]

Dear elihu,

Please read :

"And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years." - (Rv20:4-6)

As shown in the verses quoted above, if the resurrection takes place in heaven only, why would the rest of the dead have to wait for the end of the 1 000 years before being granted everlasting life and being considered as God's sons ?

Would it be possible for the resurrected ones to die again (in case they're found wicked) if they all are in heaven ?

Please read :

"Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Ma´gog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them. And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." - (Rv20:7-10)

According to the verses quoted above, where are the nations misled ? If fire comes down out of heaven, it means that those events will take place on earth, doesn't it ?

Earthly resurrection is not explained expressly but we can deduce it quite easily anyway from the context, provided we try not to be influenced by fallacious reasonings and false teachings.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[elihu]

Hi Utuna,

yes i understand, but have you ever felt like its all or nothing?
have you ever felt that it might be nothing?
no matter how much you study, how hard you try to understand, it might just be that it was not meant to be, some were simply not ever to be a Christian like Christ

we read the words of Christ like the ones i quoted and yet who is really living by them?

what really is a christian?

a FOLLOWER of CHRIST
what does that mean, we talk about him?
we quote scriptures that he said?
we debate our differences
at the moment i just do not feel anything like Christ.
this damn world just squeezes life out of us

d ya know at this moment i feel like its all or nothing, believe or don,t believe, follow Christ or walk the other way.
millions confess to be Christians even those who study the scriptures, but have they really thought about about it

" LOVE your enemy BLESS Those who CURSE YOU, do GOOD to those who HATE YOU...."

the way i see it they must be one in a million!

or perhaps 144k out of billions.

sorry for the rant i needed it.

elihu

[truthseeker]

Hi Utuna,

yes i understand, but have you ever felt like its all or nothing?
have you ever felt that it might be nothing?
no matter how much you study, how hard you try to understand, it might just be that it was not meant to be, some were simply not ever to be a Christian like Christ

we read the words of Christ like the ones i quoted and yet who is really living by them?

what really is a christian?

a FOLLOWER of CHRIST
what does that mean, we talk about him?
we quote scriptures that he said?
we debate our differences
at the moment i just do not feel anything like Christ.
this damn world just squeezes life out of us

d ya know at this moment i feel like its all or nothing, believe or don,t believe, follow Christ or walk the other way.
millions confess to be Christians even those who study the scriptures, but have they really thought about about it

" LOVE your enemy BLESS Those who CURSE YOU, do GOOD to those who HATE YOU...."

the way i see it they must be one in a million!

or perhaps 144k out of billions.

sorry for the rant i needed it.

elihu

I totally sympathies with your concerns Elihu and understand your perspective.
Maybe it is as simple as these scriptures in

Romans 8:19-22
19 For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now.

Love truthseeker

[Utuna]

Hi Utuna,

yes i understand, but have you ever felt like its all or nothing?
have you ever felt that it might be nothing?
no matter how much you study, how hard you try to understand, it might just be that it was not meant to be, some were simply not ever to be a Christian like Christ

we read the words of Christ like the ones i quoted and yet who is really living by them?

what really is a christian?

a FOLLOWER of CHRIST
what does that mean, we talk about him?
we quote scriptures that he said?
we debate our differences
at the moment i just do not feel anything like Christ.
this damn world just squeezes life out of us

d ya know at this moment i feel like its all or nothing, believe or don,t believe, follow Christ or walk the other way.
millions confess to be Christians even those who study the scriptures, but have they really thought about about it

" LOVE your enemy BLESS Those who CURSE YOU, do GOOD to those who HATE YOU...."

the way i see it they must be one in a million!

or perhaps 144k out of billions.

sorry for the rant i needed it.

elihu

Dear elihu,

You said :
"some were simply not ever to be a Christian like Christ"Please read :

"What then? Are we in a better position? Not at all! For above we have made the charge that Jews as well as Greeks are all under sin; just as it is written: “There is not a righteous [man], not even one; there is no one that has any insight, there is no one that seeks for God. All [men] have deflected, all of them together have become worthless; there is no one that does kindness, there is not so much as one.” “Their throat is an opened grave, they have used deceit with their tongues.” “Poison of asps is behind their lips.” “And their mouth is full of cursing and bitter expression.” “Their feet are speedy to shed blood.” “Ruin and misery are in their ways, and they have not known the way of peace.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” - (Rom3:9-18)

We're all imperfect and no one can be a Christian like Christ ! He was perfect, we aren't ! God will never ask us to be perfect Christians. Were the apostles perfect ? What did enable them to accomplish their assignment properly ? Their own strength ? Not at all !!

"E·li´jah was a man with feelings like ours, and yet in prayer he prayed for it not to rain; and it did not rain upon the land for three years and six months. And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain and the land put forth its fruit." - (Ja5:17-18)

"For the righteous one may fall even seven times, and he will certainly get up*; but the wicked ones will be made to stumble by calamity." - (Prov24:16)

"However, we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the power beyond what is normal may be God’s and not that out of ourselves. We are pressed in every way, but not cramped beyond movement; we are perplexed, but not absolutely with no way out; we are persecuted, but not left in the lurch; we are thrown down, but not destroyed. Always we endure everywhere in our body the death-dealing treatment given to Jesus, that the life of Jesus may also be made manifest in our body. For we who live are ever being brought face to face with death for Jesus’ sake, that the life of Jesus may also be made manifest in our mortal flesh. Consequently death is at work in us, but life in YOU." - (2Cor4:7-12)

"and yet he really said to me: “My undeserved kindness is sufficient for you; for [my] power is being made perfect in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, will I rather boast as respects my weaknesses, that the power of the Christ may like a tent remain over me." - (2Cor12:9)

If we want to be good Christians, shouldn't we be proud of our weaknesses, so to speak, instead of looking for perfection? God never asked us to be perfect but asks us never to give up. He can give us the strength to finish the race but can't decide, against our wishes, to keep us running.

"Do YOU not know that the runners in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that YOU may attain it" - (1Cor9:24)

"So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us," - (Heb12:1)

What does God want from us ? to be perfect ? to be tireless preacher-bees ? to be Bible erudite ?

Please read :

"For you don’t want sacrifices, or I would give them;
you don’t take pleasure in burnt offerings.
My sacrifice to God is a broken spirit;
God, you won’t spurn a broken, chastened heart." - (Ps 51:16-17) CJB

Dear elihu, we're all in the same race, running side by side, and I'm begging you not to give up !

*Did you see the videos I had posted in the thread entitled "Little Big Man"?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[shikinah]

I think theres several scriptures which shows it couldnt just be a heavenly hope.

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them.

Theres no doubt when you read this scripture that there is going to be an earthly paradise.

Revelation 22:2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

This could also be symbolic but what would sick nations be doing up in heaven:confused:
So i guess it could have an earthly meetings
What a wonderful time it will be;)



Jah Bless
Shikinah

[Utuna]

Hi Utuna,

yes i understand, but have you ever felt like its all or nothing?
have you ever felt that it might be nothing?
no matter how much you study, how hard you try to understand, it might just be that it was not meant to be, some were simply not ever to be a Christian like Christ

we read the words of Christ like the ones i quoted and yet who is really living by them?

what really is a christian?

a FOLLOWER of CHRIST
what does that mean, we talk about him?
we quote scriptures that he said?
we debate our differences
at the moment i just do not feel anything like Christ.
this damn world just squeezes life out of us

d ya know at this moment i feel like its all or nothing, believe or don,t believe, follow Christ or walk the other way.
millions confess to be Christians even those who study the scriptures, but have they really thought about about it

" LOVE your enemy BLESS Those who CURSE YOU, do GOOD to those who HATE YOU...."

the way i see it they must be one in a million!

or perhaps 144k out of billions.

sorry for the rant i needed it.

elihu

Mon frère,

Je pleure, j'ai mal, oui j'ai très mal mais tout comme cette si belle chanson le dit : "Parfois tout donner n'est pas forcément suffire..." - "mais tout ce que je pouvais, ça n'était pas encore assez ! pas assez !"



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttBdzt-2-Vw

Oui, je ne demande qu'à aimer mon prochain comme moi même, tout comme mon Seigneur me l'a enseigné mais je ne veux plus souffrir. Comment faire ? Est-ce le prix à payer ? Faut-il cesser d'aimer pour ne plus avoir à souffrir ? Est-ce cela le christianisme ? Aimer les autres comme soit même pour en souffrir plus encore !

"Sache qu'ici reste de toi comme une empreinte indélébile !"

"Il est des douleurs qui ne pleurent qu'à l'intérieur !"


------------------------------


Dear Robert, I'll translate it all tomorrow morning. Tonight, I don't feel like doing anything excepted letting my heart bleed once more.

Here is a song with the same kind of lyrics somehow... but in English !


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em328ua_Lo8

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[FutureMan]

I think in regards to the resurrection most of us here has missed one basic point and truth, and that is, it is God who decides who is to have life and also who decides what type of resurrection we do have, whether it be heavenly or earthly.

The hope of eternal life is held out to us all, that is what we do know for sure.

The big question is, are we going to avail ourselves of God's provision of his Son's ransom sacrifice, by exercising Faith in his Son, so as to receive this reward of eternal life?

[FutureMan]

I just thought that I might add to my previous comment, that I myself am not concerned as to where I will be resurrected to, after I die, or whether I'm one of God's chosen ones.

What is my concern however as to my hope, is whether God will determine that I'm acceptable in his sight, so as to receive the gift of "everlasting life".

[Utuna]

Mon frère,

Je pleure, j'ai mal, oui j'ai très mal mais tout comme cette si belle chanson le dit : "Parfois tout donner n'est pas forcément suffire..." - "mais tout ce que je pouvais, ça n'était pas encore assez ! pas assez

Oui, je ne demande qu'à aimer mon prochain comme moi même, tout comme mon Seigneur me l'a enseigné mais je ne veux plus souffrir. Comment faire ? Est-ce le prix à payer ? Faut-il cesser d'aimer pour ne plus avoir à souffrir ? Est-ce cela le christianisme ? Aimer les autres comme soit même pour en souffrir plus encore !

"Sache qu'ici reste de toi comme une empreinte indélébile !"

"Il est des douleurs qui ne pleurent qu'à l'intérieur !" !"

Here is the translation of the above.

My brother,

I'm crying, it hurts, yes it hurts a lot but as says that so nice song : "At times, even giving everything is not enough." "and all that I could do was still not enough ! not enough !"

Yes, I'm willing to love my neighbour as myself, as my Lord taught me but I don't want to suffer any more. How to do it ? Is it the price to pay ? Should we stop loving not to suffer anymore ? Is Christianism so ? To love our neighbour as ourselves just to have to suffer more even from it ?

"Know that here remains an indelible mark of you".

"There are sufferings that only weep on the inside".

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"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[elihu]

Here is the translation of the above.

My brother,

I'm crying, it hurts, yes it hurts a lot but as says that so nice song : "At times, even giving everything is not enough." "and all that I could do was still not enough ! not enough !"

Yes, I'm willing to love my neighbour as myself, as my Lord taught me but I don't want to suffer any more. How to do it ? Is it the price to pay ? Should we stop loving not to suffer anymore ? Is Christianism so ? To love our neighbour as ourselves just to have to suffer more even from it ?

"Know that here remains an indelible mark of you".

"There are sufferings that only weep on the inside".

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"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton



thanks Utuna

for all your words you keep me on the right course my brother

i asked Jehovah to soften my heart and he did i cried my eyes out even though i could'nt understand a word
a kingdom song about the paradise earth in austrian


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS4KAlxqzVk