Who is the voice and more

[Tsaphah]

“Who is the voice of an earthling man?” (As mentioned in the book of Daniel)

I felt that this subject should be addressed in a new topic rather than in the other post where this question was asked. Hopefully, I will be able to answer it, using the Bible. For the following quotations, I will use the New American Standard Bible, NASB.

If we are looking for an answer from the Bible, we have to make assumptions and associations with all of the scriptures. First of all, we cannot depend on the English translations as “proof”, or “correctness”. We must go to the available ancient manuscripts and read them in their original languages, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.

This portion of the book of Daniel uses several Hebrew and Aramaic words; ql=kawl, qwl=kole, that are variously translated into English as; voice, sound, lightness, thunder, thunderings, noise, proclamation, roared loudly, and too many other words to list here. It this case, we will focus on the words used pertaining to Daniel and the verse in question. At Dan 8:13, it mentions “a holy one speaking”. The Hebrew word used here is, dbr-dawbar. It is translated as “speaking”. It is also translated as, to declare, converse, command, promise, warn, threaten, sing, pronounce, etc. The main difference between ql-qwl and dbr-dawbar is in the volume used. Dabar is used when a normal conversation is being spoken. Ql-qwl is used when something is being shouted out with a loud sound, not a normal conversational tone.

If we read all of Daniel 8:13, which is where the vision ends, and Daniel says, “Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to that particular one who was speaking, How long will the vision about the regular sacrifice apply, while the transgression causes horror, so as to allow both the holy place and the host to be trampled?"

In verses 13 through 15, there are two “holy ones” being spoken of and they are speaking(=dabar) to each other.

In verse 8:16, the NASB translates this as; “And I heard the voice of a man between the banks of Ulai, and he called out and said, "Gabriel, give this man an understanding of the vision." Some versions translate this as “voice of an earthling man”, because the Hebrew word for man used here is, 'adam=man, human being, mankind. This was a loud voice, or sound, something like a human being speaking. It appears to be coming from the area between the banks of the river. So, the one speaking is unidentifiable. This raises the original question of, “Who is the voice of an earthling man?” We must read further to hopefully arrive at a satisfactory answer. In verses 16-17, the holy one standing on the bank, near Daniel, is identified as “Gabriel”. We can also associate the “voice of a man between the banks” as being the “holy one speaking” as still not identified, and “another holy one” being identified as Gabriel. This particular “holy one”, Gabriel, is only mentioned by name in three different occurrences in the bible.

One time here, in Daniel. (Dan 8:16, 9:21)

One time speaking to Zachariah, the priest, father of John the baptist. (Lk 1:19)

One time speaking to Mary, the mother of Jesus. (Lk 1:26)

We can also conclude the answers to two other questions, “Who’s hand touched Daniel and gradually stirred him up to upon his knees and the palms of his hands?”

In this occurrence, it is Gabriel. (Dan 8:17) Daniel basically fainted, or came near to unconsciousness while Gabriel was speaking (dbr-dawbar).

”Who’s the one like the appearance of an earthling man that proceeded to touch Daniel again and strengthen him?” This is Gabriel. (Dan 8:18)

This brings up an interesting point. Daniel refers to this person as having the appearance, or looked like, “a man” (gbr=geber=strong man, warrior, from the root word, meaning having strength or being powerful). Yet, at a later time, Dan 9:21, he speaks of Gabriel as a “man” ('iysh=ēsh=man, human being). He also uses this same term in describing the “certain man dressed in linen.” (Dan 10:5) But, by his description of this "man" ('iysh=ēsh=man, human being), it is readily apparent that it is no ordinary man, or human being. (Dan 10:6) This person is likely another “holy one” because Daniel does not identify him as Gabriel, whom he has spoken to twice before. This person also does not identify himself. A similar situation occurs to Daniel, he faints and falls on his face. This "holy one" also lifts Daniel to his feet and by touching him, strengthens him.

The one thing this person does is, identify the archangel, Michael. (Dan 10:13, 21) We are not able to identify who this angel is. Yet, it was obviously a strong angel, and not an ordinary man. He was prevented from coming to tell Daniel the message of what is to come. This angel also tells, Daniel, that he has to “return to fight against the prince of Persia;..." (Dan 10:20)

I hope this will help some of you, in your studies of the bible. May Jehovah and his Christ bless those diligently searching his word, to find peace and blessings. And, to those who look forward to his coming kingdom.

Agapé,
Tsaphah

[Jinnvisible]

Three more.... by 5pm next Tuesday please.

[Tsaphah]

Three more.... by 5pm next Tuesday please.

Sorry, Jinn. I've got some "head banging" to do, and watch "The Great American Race", for the uninitiated, wow, that's quite a word, (The Daytona 500). Oh yeah, and a lot of kissing on Sunday. LOL

Tsaphah

[Anthony]

I hope this will help some of you, in your studies of the bible. May Jehovah and his Christ bless those diligently searching his word, to find peace and blessings. And, to those who look forward to his coming kingdom.

Agapé,
Tsaphah

Thank you for your effort put into this response. And also for moving it to another thread. I agree we needed to get away from the other one.

Can I ask you to please insert the following next to each (?) where you believe they go? Even anywhere else that I already put the identity , if you feel it differs from what I put. But please don’t take out what I put just add it next to it in another color. Thanks

Also who do you feel the angel is in Rev 10:5 and do you think that Dan 12:7 swearing is the same event as Rev 10:5?


(Gabriel) - (unidentified angel)



Dan 8:15 Then it came about that, while I myself, Daniel, was seeing the vision and seeking an understanding, why, look! there was standing in front of me someone(Gabriel) in appearance like an able-bodied man. 16 And I (Daniel) began to hear the voice (?) of an earthling man in the midst of the U´lai, and he (the voice) proceeded to call out and say: “Gabriel, make that one (Daniel) there understand the thing seen.” 17 So he (Gabriel) came beside where I (Daniel) was standing, but when he came I got terrified so that I fell upon my face. And he (Gabriel) proceeded to say to me (Daniel): “Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of [the] end.” 18 And while he (Gabriel) was speaking with me, I had become fast asleep on my face on the earth. So he (Gabriel) touched me and made me stand up where I had been standing. 19 And hewent on to say: “Here I (Gabriel) am causing you (Daniel) to know what will occur in the final part of the denunciation, because it is for the appointed time of [the] end.


Dan 10:5 I (Daniel) also proceeded to raise my eyes and see, and here was a certain man (?) clothed in linen, with his hips girded with gold of U´phaz.8 And I—I (Daniel) was left remaining by myself, so that I saw this great appearance (the man in linen). And there was left remaining in me no power, and my own dignity became changed upon me to ruination, and I retained no power. 9 And I began hearing the sound of his (the man in linen)words; and while I was hearing the sound of his words, I myself also happened to be fast asleep upon my face, with my face to the earth. 10 And, look! there was a hand (who’s hand?) that touched me, and it gradually stirred me up to [get] upon my knees and the palms of my hands.11 And he (the man in linen) proceeded to say to me: “O Daniel, you very desirable man, have understanding in the words that I (the man in linen)am speaking to you (Daniel), and stand up where you were standing, for now I(the man in linen) have been sent to you.” And when he (the man in linen)spoke with me (Daniel), this word, I did stand up, shivering.12 And he went on to say to me: “Do not be afraid, O Daniel, for from the first day that you gave your heart to understanding and humbling yourself before your God (Jehovah) your words have been heard, and I (the man in linen)myself have come because of your words. 13 But the prince of the royal realm of Persia was standing in opposition to me (the man in linen)for twenty-one days, and, look! Michael (Jesus?), one of the foremost princes, came to help me (the man in linen); and I, for my part, remained there beside the kings of Persia. 14 And I (the man in linen)have come to cause you (Daniel), to discern what will befall your people in the final part of the days, because it is a vision yet for the days [to come].” 15 Now when he (the man in linen)spoke with me words like these, I had set my face to the earth and had become speechless. 16 And, look! one similar to the likeness (?) of the sons of mankind was touching my lips, and I (Daniel), began to open my mouth and speak and say to the one was standing in front of me (?): “O my lord, because of the appearance my convulsions were turned within me, and I did not retain any power. 17 So how was the servant of this my lord (?) able to speak with this my lord? And as for me (Daniel), up to now there kept standing in me no power, and no breath at all was left remaining in me.” 18 And the one (?) like the appearance of an earthling man proceeded to touch me again and strengthen me. 19 Then he (?) said: “Do not be afraid, O very desirable man. May you have peace. Be strong, yes, be strong.” And as soon as he (?)spoke with me I (Daniel), exerted my strength and finally said: “Let my lord speak, because you have strengthened me.” 20 So he (?) went on to say: “Do you really know why I have come to you? And now I shall go back to fight with the prince of Persia. When I am going forth, look! also the prince of Greece is coming. 21 However, I (?) shall tell you the things noted down in the writing of truth, and there is no one holding strongly with me in these [things] but Michael (?), the prince of YOU people. Dan 12:5 And I saw, I Daniel, and, look! there were two others (?)standing, one on the bank here of the stream and the other on the bank there of the stream. 6 Then one said to the man clothed with the linen, who was up above the waters of the stream: “How long will it be to the end of the wonderful things?” 7 And I began to hear the man clothed with the linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he (who is the man in linen?)proceeded to raise his right [hand] and his left [hand] to the heavens and to swear by the One who is alive for time indefinite: “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times and a half. And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish.” 8 Now as for me (Daniel), I heard, but I could not understand; so that I said: “O my lord, what will be the final part of these things?” 9 And he (the man in linen)went on to say: “Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end.

Rev 10:5 And the angel (?) that I saw standing on the sea and on the earth raised his right hand to heaven, 6 and by the One who lives forever and ever, who created the heaven and the things in it and the earth and the things in it and the sea and the things in it, he swore: “There will be no delay any longer; 7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to blow his trumpet, the sacred secret of God according to the good news which he declared to his own slaves the prophets is indeed brought to a finish.”

[Tsaphah]

Before I attempt to answer or insert replies, let me say, Daniel 12:7 is quite interesting and open to interpretation because of the way it is worded, even in Hebrew. It says, “I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river,”. The Hebrew word for above is “mn=min”, it can mean; out of, on the side of, above, off, or out of, etc. Another question about this is; When it says, “above”, is it describing him being in the air above the water, or standing on the bank which is above the water? Based on the other verses in chapters 8-12, where it speaks of “two holy ones”, I would think it is describing them standing on the banks, as it states in Dan 12:5. Therefore, he could still be above the water if he is standing on the bank. This holds true where it is translated as "in the midst".

Can I ask you to please insert the followingnext to each (?) where you believe they go? Even anywhere else that I already put the identity , if you feel it differs from what I put. But please don’t take out what I put just add it next to it in another color. Thanks

Also who do you feel the angel is in Rev 10:5 and do you think that Dan 12:7 swearing is the same event as Rev 10:5? (At this time, only God and Christ knows, we don't. It would be guessing. It really doesn't matter who it is. It only matters that it happens, and we can only sit and watch. Our knowing has no control over these things.)

(Gabriel) - (unidentified angel) ( ? If you are asking if these two are the same, it could be but, I doubt it. I believe that Gabriel would have identified himself again.)

Dan 8:15Then it came about that, while I myself, Daniel, was seeing the vision and seeking an understanding, why, look! there was standing in front of me someone(Gabriel)in appearance like an able-bodied man. 16 And I (Daniel)began to hear the voice (?) (?)of an earthling man in the midst (? based on what I said above) of the U´lai, and he (the voice) (yes)proceeded to call out and say: “Gabriel,make that one (Daniel)there understand the thing seen.” 17 So he (Gabriel)came beside where I(Daniel)was standing, but when he came I got terrified so that I fell upon my face. And he (Gabriel)proceeded to say to me(Daniel): “Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of [the] end.” 18 And while he (Gabriel)was speaking with me, I had become fast asleep on my face on the earth. So he (Gabriel)touched me and made me stand up where I had been standing. 19 And he went on to say: “Here I (Gabriel)am causing you(Daniel)to know what will occur in the final part of the denunciation, because it is for the appointed time of [the] end.(Based on the description of what is occurring here, I assume that, Gabriel is on one side of the river, and the voice of the other holy one is on the opposite side.)

Dan 10:5I (Daniel)also proceeded to raise my eyes and see, and here was a certain man(?)clothed in linen, with his hips girded with gold of U´phaz.8 And I—I(Daniel)was left remaining by myself, so that I saw this great appearance(the man in linen). (We can assume that to be him) And there was left remaining in me no power, and my own dignity became changed upon me to ruination, and I retained no power. 9 And I began hearing the sound of his(the man in linen)words; and while I was hearing the sound of his words, I myself also happened to be fast asleep upon my face, with my face to the earth. 10 And, look! there was a hand (who’s hand?)(the man in linen=verse 11) that touched me, and it gradually stirred me up to [get] upon my knees and the palms of my hands.11 And he(the man in linen) proceeded to say to me: “O Daniel, you very desirable man, have understanding in the words that I(the man in linen) am speaking to you(Daniel), and stand up where you were standing, for now I(the man in linen)have been sent to you.” And when he(the man in linen)spoke with me(Daniel), this word, I did stand up, shivering.12 And he went on to say to me: “Do not be afraid, O Daniel, for from the first day that you gave your heart to understanding and humbling yourself before your God (Jehovah)your words have been heard, and I (the man in linen) myself have come because of your words. 13 But the prince of the royal realm of Persia was standing in opposition to me (the man in linen) for twenty-one days, and, look! Michael (Jesus?), (yes)one of the foremost princes, (The Hebrew is “rshwn sr= reshown sar”, which literally means first or primary leader. The root words for reshown comes from the words meaning beginning time and head.) is came to help me(the man in linen); and I, for my part, remained there beside the kings of Persia. 14 And I(the man in linen)have come to cause you(Daniel), to discern what will befall your people in the final part of the days, because it is a vision yet for the days [to come].” 15 Now when he (the man in linen)spoke with me words like these, I had set my face to the earth and had become speechless. 16 And, look! one similar to the likeness(?) (the man in linen=verse 15) of the sons of mankind was touching my lips, and I (Daniel), began to open my mouth and speak and say to the one was standing in front of me (?)(the man in linen=verse 15): “O my lord,(the man in linen) because of the appearance(the man in linen) my convulsions were turned within me, and I did not retain any power. 17 So how was the servant(Daniel) of this my lord (?)(the man in linen) able to speak with this my lord? (the man in linen) And as for me(Daniel), up to now there kept standing in me no power, and no breath at all was left remaining in me.” 18 And the one (?) (the man in linen) like the appearance of an earthling man proceeded to touch me(Daniel)again and strengthen me. 19 Then he (?) (the man in linen) said: “Do not be afraid, O very desirable man. (Daniel) May you have peace. Be strong, yes, be strong.” And as soon as he (?) (the man in linen) spoke with me I (Daniel), exerted my strength and finally said: “Let my lord (the man in linen) speak, because you(the man in linen) have strengthened me.” 20 So he (?) (the man in linen) went on to say: “Do you really know why I have come to you? And now I shall go back to fight with the prince of Persia.(one of Satan's demons? Lk 4:6) When I am going forth, look! also the prince of Greece(another of Satan's demons? Lk 4:6) is coming. 21 However, I (?) (the man in linen) shall tell you the things noted down in the writing of truth, and there is no one holding strongly with me in these [things] but Michael (?)(Jesus), the prince of YOU people.(Jesus)(Jude 1:9), Archaggelos=archangel, or chief of the angels. (Rev 12:7)

Dan 12:5 And I saw, I Daniel, and, look! there were two others(?)(explained above)standing, one on the bank here of the stream and the other on the bank there of the stream. 6 Then one said to the man clothed with the linen, who was up above the waters of the stream: “How long will it be to the end of the wonderful things?” 7 And I began to hear the man clothed with the linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he (who is the man in linen?) (yes, that is who is being spoken of}proceeded to raise his right [hand] and his left [hand] to the heavens and to swear by the One who is alive for time indefinite: “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times and a half. And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy people to pieces, all these things will come to their finish.”8 Now as for me(Daniel), I heard, but I could not understand; so that I said: “O my lord, what will be the final part of these things?” 9 And he(the man in linen)went on to say: “Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end.

Rev 10:5 And the angel (?) (? don't know) that I saw standing on the sea and on the earth raised his right hand to heaven, 6 and by the One who lives forever and ever, who created the heaven and the things in it and the earth and the things in it and the sea and the things in it, he swore: “There will be no delay any longer; 7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to blow his trumpet, the sacred secret of God according to the good news which he declared to his own slaves the prophets is indeed brought to a finish.”

Who this angel is, we do not know. We can guess until the finale.

Many people have wondered for centuries about what has been written here, in Daniel and Revelation. There are a few lines in the poem, The Charge of the Light Brigade, that came to my mind, as I was writing. “Their's not to make reply, Their's not to reason why, Their's but to do and die:” There are those who feel WE should follow that logic. I say NOT. I will always ask WHY.

I hope this helps you in understanding these scriptures. Or, it may raise more questions. The more reason to study.

Agapé,
Tsaphah

[Anthony]

(Gabriel) - (unidentified angel) ( ? If you are asking if these two are the same, it could be but, I doubt it. I believe that Gabriel would have identified himself again.)

Tsaphah

Thank you for taking the time to do this. I am going to have to read it a few times to see if I can follow it.

I wasn't asking if (Gabriel) - (unidentified angel) are the same, I assumed that from what you wrote that there is a unidentified angel, so I just wanted you to insert it where it refers to him and put Gabriel where it referred to him. Including where it says man in linen. But thank you again for what you have done and I will try to work with what info you have given.